Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer | Dog and Pony Show | 7

Summary

OnlyFantasy Podcast

Episode: Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer | Dog and Pony Show | 7

Host: Leon Neyfakh

Release Date: April 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this vivid, investigative episode of Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer, Leon Neyfakh dissects the most controversial period in Jerry Springer's television career. The episode looks closely at the turning point when the veracity and morality of “The Jerry Springer Show” were questioned—especially around staged violence and its effects on audiences. Neyfakh examines the “Dog and Pony Show” era, including the infamous “I Married a Horse” episode, the backlash from community leaders, and Springer's public defense of his program as it endured both cultural condemnation and ratings triumphs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Fake” Scandal and Producer Manipulation

• Exposure of Fakery:
  • TV exposes (Extra and ABC’s 20/20) revealed that aspects of the show—including fights—were staged, with confessions from former guests and producers.
  • Producers allegedly provided wardrobe, props, and even scripts to guests to spark on-air drama.
• Producer Norm LeBeau:
  • Accused and ultimately confessed to encouraging fake stories, recruiting guests from strip clubs, and giving them instructions for maximum shock value.
  • Quote [04:23], Norm LeBeau: “So what we ended up doing is just getting people from strip clubs, people that we knew, and they were just wanting to go on TV and they would do whatever we told them to do. I made sure that they looked real.”
• Springer’s Response:
  • Springer repeatedly deflected blame onto producers, maintaining he had no knowledge and that such actions were unacceptable.
  • Quote [03:00], Jerry Springer: “If any producer is telling guests what to say, then that producer has to go.”

2. Community and Moral Backlash

• Father Michael Pfleger’s Crusade:
  • Chicago Pastor Michael Pfleger leads a coalition against Springer, citing the normalization of on-screen violence and its impact on youth.
  • His tactics shifted from moral appeals to targeting advertisers, which successfully pressured NBC to drop the show—only for another channel to pick it up at a higher price.
  • Quote [07:20], Father Michael Pfleger: “Go after the advertisers. We put out a list of his advertisers and made that very, very public about asking people to write letters to them and complain…”
• Cultural Blame for Real-World Violence:
  • Reports connect Springer to copycat violence by school children.
  • Some, including Pfleger, argue the show conditioned viewers to tolerate or mimic violent conflict.
  • Quote [11:16], Father Michael Pfleger: “When there's things like Jonesboro that are taking place in this country, you better feel responsible. Cause you've encouraged it, you've glorified it, and you've legitimized it.”
• Industry Criticism and Legacy:
  • Figures like Bill Bennett publicly decry the show as a symptom of societal collapse, comparing it to ancient Rome’s decadence ([13:54]).

3. “I Married a Horse”: Pushing the Boundaries

• Infamous Episode Genesis:
  • Producer Tobias Yoshimura fields a call from Mark Matthews, who claims to be married to a Shetland pony. After vetting the bizarre story, producers decide to air it as a replacement for fights, hoping to retain shock value without violence.
• Audience Experience:
  • Lisa Beasley, a studio audience member, expected physical drama but was instead repulsed and shocked by the bestiality content.
  • Notable Quote [24:17], Lisa Beasley: “I'm gonna keep my tone, but me and my aunt said, what the fuck? We came all the way out here for this. What the hell going on with this?”
• Production Chaos:
  • Showrunners deal with logistics of bringing a horse into the studio, animal regulations, and shielding the topic until the last moment for maximum dramatic impact.
• Outcome:
  • Most broadcast stations refuse to air the episode. Despite this, the controversy fuels even greater ratings for the show during crucial May sweeps.
  • Quote [27:10]: “It was carefully planned which shows would air during the Nielsen rating sweep's time… there was like literally no question. It was just going right into the book.”

4. Corporate & Cultural Tensions

• Attempts to Curb Violence:
  • Due to mounting pressure, Studios USA pledges to end on-air violence; enforces new, stricter rules for guests.
  • Quote [29:40], Richard Dominick: “They can't get out of their seats, they can't fight, they can't touch each other… they tried everything to shut us down…”
• Results:
  • Violent outbursts disappear, but so do the ratings; fights return within a month, restoring the show to its controversial norms.
  • By end of 1998, Springer beats Oprah in ratings and releases a memoir (“Ringmaster”).

5. Politics, Personal Reputation, and Accountability

• Personal Life Under Scrutiny:
  • Tabloids swarm Springer with stories of salacious behavior, while Springer insists the show does not reflect his true self.
  • Quote [31:28], Jerry Springer: “Well, it would hurt me if it were really me, But I don't pretend to believe that that show is me.”
• Public Debate on Morality:
  • Barbara Walters challenges Springer about abandoning politics for TV fame and questions his sense of responsibility.
  • Quote [32:10], Jerry Springer: “I really believe that. And I have worked very hard in my life, certainly early on and now in trying to make the world better. That doesn't mean that your job is the only way that you make the world better.”
• Moral Philosophy Clash:
  • Pfleger argues one cannot separate professional actions from personal morality.
  • Quote [43:22], Father Michael Pfleger: “You are who you are. And when you decide to do corrupt things or evil things or immoral things, or just wrong things, it’s in you. ... You can't get off by saying, hey, well, that's just what I do for a living. No, it's who you are.”

6. City Council Showdown

• Show Staff Rallies:
  • Springer staff attends Chicago city council hearing en masse, becoming their own raucous supporters.
  • Quote [35:52], Staff Member: “It kind of had that party feeling. It had a high school rally feeling like, we're standing behind Jerry. This is as much an attack on us as it is on him.”
• Springer’s Defense:
  • He claims the show discourages—not glorifies—violence, citing audience booing of aggressors as proof.
  • Quote [37:36], Jerry Springer: “The people who fight on our show, they never look glamorous. The guy who fights loses the girl. In the end, the audience boos the bad guy. ... So just because you watch our show and you see people wrestling around on the ground, do not assume that because people see that, they find it is attractive.”
• Academic Study:
  • Study of show episodes supports claim of moralistic audience scolding rather than celebration of transgression ([40:15]).

7. Long-term Consequences & Reflections

• Backlash After Columbine:
  • After the Columbine shooting, anti-Springer sentiment resurfaces, with renewed demands for accountability.
• Pfleger’s Lasting Assessment:
  • He believes Springer's show helped reshape American conflict resolution and public morality, making on-screen violence seem acceptable and profitable ([42:20]).
• Epilogue:
  • The episode ends with a biblical question posed to Springer: Is it worth gaining the world if you lose your soul? Neyfakh teases the next chapter—Springer pursuing a U.S. Senate seat.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“I don't pretend to believe that that show is me.”
— Jerry Springer, [31:28]

“Laughing at the pain of other people's lives is probably not healthy. Encouraging people to fight and to attack one another verbally and physically to get ratings is not healthy.”
— Father Michael Pfleger, [08:01]

“It was just a television show. It's not the Vietnam War. It's not World War II. We didn't drop a bomb... If you don't like it, don't look at it.”
— Executive Producer Richard Dominick, [15:34]

“His show was showing that this is how we handle conflict…Whether it's in relationships…it's to get angry and to jump on one another and to fight.”
— Father Michael Pfleger, [42:20]

“You are who you are. … You can't get off by saying, hey, well, that's just what I do for a living. No, it's who you are.”
— Father Michael Pfleger, [43:22]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Exposure of fakery, Diane Diamond’s expose: [00:14] – [03:45]
• Springer deflects blame, producer fallout: [03:00], [03:45]
• Father Pfleger opposes Springer: [05:48] – [10:23]
• Advertiser/activist campaign: [07:20]
• Copycat violence, kids & Springer: [11:08] – [12:54]
• Bill Bennett's Roman Colosseum analogy: [13:54]
• Infamous “I Married a Horse” episode genesis/production: [17:53] – [27:10]
• Audience reaction and aftermath: [24:17], [28:26]
• Springer staff discusses post-violence ratings & changes: [29:40] – [30:07]
• Springer’s legacy and TV philosophy: [40:15] – [43:22]
• Biblical closing challenge: [44:18]

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Conclusion

This episode of Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer offers a penetrating look at the clash between spectacle and morality in late-90s American daytime television. Neyfakh navigates the layered controversies—wrestling with questions of authenticity, accountability, and the complicated personal and social legacy of Jerry Springer. The voices included (from fervent critics to staffers and Springer himself) make for a riveting, multifaceted journey through one of television’s most infamous chapters.

Transcript

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

When the Jerry Springer show beat Oprah nationally for the first time, the success put a target squarely on the show's back.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

You're about to hear the confessions of 16 former guests of the Jerry Springer Show.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

In April of 1998, the tabloid TV show Extra aired a damning report that called into question whether the Springer show was as real and raw as it claimed.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

You might recognize them. Many were in fights that have become the program's signature. Now they're about to tell a news story that what millions of viewers saw was actually fake, set up, even choreographed.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Special correspondent Diane diamond sat down with a group of former guests and got them to admit that they had gone on Springer and said things that weren't true. Some said they had made up their stories whole cloth. Others said producers encouraged them to get into physical fights and gave them props.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

And to make the show better, they say producers provided everything from skimpy wardrobes to fake engagement rings.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Diamond went on to name one of the producers accused of staging fake stories.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

The scandalous tale was in fact concocted by Springer producer Norm Budd LeBeau. And here's LeBeau in their hotel room, they say, rehearsing an actual script for their show and practicing what would become a show stopping fight.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Norm LeBeau, the Springer guest turned producer you met in the previous chapter. Extra had obtained copies of what guests said was a script LeBeau had written for them.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Jenny will then turn to Jason and tell him she's been seeing someone else. Jason will be hurt and upset by his brother's betrayal. He will obviously want to confront Gary.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

LeBeau told us this document was really just an outline that he had prepared for Springer that one of the guests had gotten a hold of. But in any event, Diane diamond was less interested in LeBeau than the guy at the top, or at least the guy whose name was in the title of the show.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Does anybody have any evidence that Jerry Springer himself knows about these fakes?

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

His producers look like they ran the show more than he did.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Yeah.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Extra caught up with Springer himself at a Planet Hollywood in New York.

[Jerry Springer]

Have there been people that make it up? I am sure. Have there been producers that have crossed the line? I'm figuring out that's probably true. If they've done it, I think we ought to do something about it.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

And lawyers.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The Extra story was followed by a similar one from ABC's 20 20. The very next day, once again, Norm LeBeau was singled out as one of the producers to blame. But Lynn Scher, the 2020 correspondent, did not let Springer off the hook.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

If he's going to take the credit for the rating success of the show, then he's got to take the blame for the failings. If there are some. I mean, at the very least for creating and sanctifying the environment in which this all takes place.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

When 2020 buttonholed Springer for an interview, he dutifully pointed the finger down the chain of command.

[Jerry Springer]

Everyone on our show has to be willing. If we find out that they're not, or I find out if any producer. I'll tell you this. If any producer is telling guests what to say, then that producer has to go.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

In the wake of the one, two punch from extra in 2020, Norm LeBeau did indeed go. LeBeau told us he was initially suspended and then worked out a deal to walk away. The official position of the Jerry Springer show was to deny the reports and express zero tolerance for guests who lie or producers who coach them to lie. Executive producer Richard Dominic issued a statement saying he had full confidence that the overwhelming majority of people who come onto the Jerry Springer show and who work on it are honest.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

I was a. What's that word? Collateral damage in the war against Springer. They able to use me to throw me under the bus. I was left to hang and then basically blamed for everything. No producer's ever been vilified like I have.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Clearly, LeBeau is still angry. He insisted to us that the guests were brought to him, so it wasn't his fault if they were fake. However, less than a month after we recorded our interview, he. He spoke to the British tabloid the sun and finally came clean.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

In the beginning, sometimes we got actors, right? But we found out that the actors would overact.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

LeBeau said the sun paid him several thousand dollars.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

So what we ended up doing is just getting people from strip clubs, people that we knew, and they were just wanting to go on tv and they would do whatever we told them to do. I made sure that they looked real.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

But as the Jerry Springer show continued its run at the top of Dayt Television, fake stories weren't the only thing critics were alleging. As Jerry Springer, the show came under more and more scrutiny. Jerry Springer, the man was forced to defend himself against attacks on his character, his integrity, and the morality of his life choices.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Unfortunately, the devil is going to come calling, Jerry, because you know what you've done and what you've been responsible for.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

I'm leon naifak from audible originals and prologue projects. This is final thoughts. Jerry springman, Chapter 7, dog and pony show.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

I was hearing more and more people, particularly Young people make comments about the Jerry Springer show and realize the power and the influence of his show. It was a cultural reality.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Father Michael Pfleger is the senior pastor at St. Sabina on the south side of Chicago. Flager has a history of taking up causes when he feels like the community he serves is under threat. He once led a boycott of the CBS affiliate in Chicago, charging that the station's preoccupation with crime on the news had left residents of the south side feeling hopeless. He also spent years fighting to get rid of billboards advertising booze and tobacco that he argued, put the health of local youth at risk.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Talk about our war and the billboards, the billboards declared war in the community, and the people are defending themselves. This is about life and death.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

By 1998, Flager was beginning to think the Jerry Springer show might be his next target.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

The thing that struck me so was the kind of the normality of violence. Throwing a chair or whatever it would be, and making violence entertainment.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Flager organized a group of local religious and political leaders to take a moral stand. They began by appealing directly to the source, writing letters to the Jerry Springer show and to the local NBC affiliate in Chicago. Flager says these letters were mostly ignored until he took some advice from a friend who worked in advertising.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

And he said, you're trying to work from a moral perspective, and they don't give a damn about the moral perspective as long as they're getting ratings and making money. Go after the advertisers. We put out a list of his advertisers and made that very, very public about asking people to write letters to them and complain to say, is this the kind of people that you want to connect yourself with? And it was after we started to affect some advertisers, and all of a sudden the Springer show wanted to talk.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Flager didn't meet with Jerry Springer personally, but rather with representatives of the show. Once again, he says they kind of brushed him off.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

It's a TV show. Stop taking this so serious. And we explained to them now it was serious. Laughing at the pain of other people's lives is probably not healthy. Encouraging people to fight and to attack one another verbally and physically to get ratings is not healthy.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Flager remembers executive producer Richard Dominick being present for at least one of these meetings.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

He was unbending, and he clearly remembers saying, you're asking us to stop doing what it is that we do. This is what the show is right now. And, yeah, he was unbending.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

No question about him as an organizer. Flager says he took inspiration from watching Martin Luther King Jr. And he proceeded with his fight against Springer with King's ideas in mind.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

I go by Dr. King's five steps for social change. And first is always education. That alone should change people. It almost never does. Then comes negotiation. You try to sit with them and try to explain why this is wrong and how we can change this. And then after negotiation comes self purification. You look at yourself, are you doing this for the right motive? And then next comes demonstration. We went to demonstration. After we tried everything else.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The group planned a demonstration outside the NBC tower in downtown Chicago where Springer was. But the night before they were set to rally, they got a call from the general manager of the station. Their efforts had actually worked. NBC 5 had decided to drop the Jerry Springer show from its lineup, saying that due to the violence and the increased viewership of kids, it did not fit with the station's longer term goals. It would have been a massive victory for Father Pfleger and his allies. Except that within 24 hours, there was a bidding war for the Jerry Springer show between three other stations in Chicago. The local Fox affiliate won out, reportedly for twice the price that NBC had been paying with their new deal. Fox would air the show not just once, but two times a day. So Flager and his group pivoted.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

We went to an all night print place to get new posters made for Fox. We called it a Fox Trot. I remember getting to bed about 2:30 in the morning.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The next morning they met at NBC tower as planned.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

We're beginning today.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

A Fox Hunt.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Yeah. We walked from NBC to Fox studios and then called people to boycott Fox for taking on this show that NBC had the moral character to get rid of because it's really bigger than Jerry Springer. It's about what's going on in TV right now and we're waking that giant and saying this kind of trash television has to go and will not be towering.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Flager tried to inject real stakes into his cause by invoking a school shooting that had happened near Jonesboro, Arkansas the month prior.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

I understand Jerry Springer. When there's things like Jonesboro that are taking place in this country, you better feel responsible. Cause you've encouraged it, you've glorified it, and you've legitimized it.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Now I'm always a little skeptical when people start blaming school shootings on TV shows. But speaking for myself as a latchkey kid who watched Springer after school, I can honestly say I had never seen people be quite so vicious to one Another it didn't make me a mass murderer, but did it rub off on me in less extreme ways? Did it coarsen my soul? Teach me how to be an asshole? I tend to think I would have figured it out on my own. But regardless, I'm just one guy and There were a lot of kids in America watching Jerry Springer in 1998. Nearly a million, according to Nielsen ratings. You don't have to be father flager to suspect that some of those kids were affected or even shaped by seeing the violence and anger and vengefulness that Springer was putting on the air every day. In 1998 alone, there were multiple incidents linking Springer to violent behavior by children. In Connecticut, a high school student broke his jaw in a fight among students who were watching Jerry Springer at school. In Virginia, the principal of an elementary school asked parents not to let their kids watch Jerry Springer at home after a group of students were spotted acting out fights they had seen on the show. Meanwhile, a public school teacher in Brooklyn was physically attacked by several sixth graders when she wouldn't let them watch Jerry Springer in class.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Much like the tabloid Talk show, the 11 to 12 year olds spat at, punched, slapped and kicked their teacher while the rest of the class watched.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The Jerry Springer show by this point had changed hands for a second time. Universal Studios was out, and a company called Studios USA was in. In response to critics, officials at Studios USA added a parental warning to the top of the show. And in some markets, executives got so many complaints from parents that they moved the show out of after school time slots. And it wasn't just Father Pfleger putting on the pressure. A New York chocolatier encouraged people to send Studios USA their household trash and promised free candy to anyone who pledged they wouldn't watch the show. Then there was former Secretary of Education Bill Bennett, a longtime advocate for reining in offensive content on television. Bennett went on CBS and said that shows like Springer's were a sign of the downfall of civilization.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

You've compared some of these TV talk

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

shows to the goings on in the Roman Colosseum 2000 years ago that preceded

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

the fall of one of the great

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

civilizations in all of history.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Yeah.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

What are we suggesting here?

[Father Michael Pfleger]

History tells us great civilizations can come and go.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

We have to accept the possibility that this civilization could go.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

As Springer's show grew more controversial, his personal life also went under the microscope and became fodder for the tabloids. One National Enquirer cover read, Jerry Springer's love Life. A Wife, a Mistress, and six Strippers. And you thought his show was wild Inside. Springer was quoted saying, yes, I've dated strippers in the past, but I've dated women who were accountants too. Springer also told the Inquirer that he had dated these women when he was separated from his wife, but that they were now back together again. Separately, the UK tabloid News of the World published an exclusive with a porn star who had been a guest on the show. She said that she and her stepmother had had an illicit rendezvous in their hotel room with Springer the night before their episode taped. The tabloid published still photos from a hidden camera that recorded the interaction. In the episode, Springer told the porn star that sex is supposed to be something intimate, something personal, and should be confined to loving couples in a special relationship. In response, she called Springer a hypocrite.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

They were like parasites feeding off the popularity of Jerry Springer. And that's what they all were.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Executive producer Richard Dominick does not recall being bothered by the show's critics in the slightest.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

We did not take any of this seriously. When I say we, I'm talking about me. It was just a television show. It's not the Vietnam War. It's not World War II. We didn't drop a bomb in Nagasaki. It was a television show. And our feeling always was, don't watch it. If you don't like it, don't look at it. And so we never took any of it seriously. The people who owned us did.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

At the end of April 1998, Studios USA announced that they were putting an end to the violence on the Jerry Springer Show. The announcement came just hours after studio execs met with Father Pfleger and other religious leaders from Chicago.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Have we seen the last of the slugfests on Jerry Springer's show? TV executives bowed to a strong and vocal opposition. All violence will cease to exist on the Jerry springer show come June 8th.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Springer, for his part, went on Howard Stern to say that he was not going to back down no matter what the studio said. Why buckle to these religious freaks?

[Jerry Springer]

I'm not gonna buckle. I'm not gonna tone down the show. You're not? No, no, no. I'm gonna talk to them today. I don't know why they issued that statement. That's absurd.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Stern, of course, was no stranger to controversy himself. His half hour cable show had been exhibit A in the national conversation around TV's new raunchiness along with Springer and South Park. I mean, why would you. First of all, you've said in the

[Father Michael Pfleger]

past you're proud of the show.

[Jerry Springer]

I am.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

And I don't see Any reason why you shouldn't be proud of it?

[Jerry Springer]

Yeah, I agree. And they had the meeting with the ministers. I wasn't even at the meeting. And no, I don't want to tone it down.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

We were the Donald Trump of talk shows. Unapologetic and in your face.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Tobias Yoshimura was an associate producer on the Jerry Springer show working directly under Melinda Chait Mele, the producer you met in the previous chapter. It was Yoshimura's job to sift through the calls that came into the show's 1-800-hotline and flag anything that seemed like a promising lead.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

We were dancing around in hell bringing the stories up.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

One day Yoshimura heard a message that was impossible to ignore.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

It was that old fashioned answering machine and he called the show and he said, I left my wife and two daughters for a Shetland pony.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

A Shetland pony. The man on the other end of the line went by the name Mark Matthews. He claims to be married to a horse named Pixel. They lived together in Missouri where bestiality was legal at the time. Matthews was part of the so called zoophile community and was the author of a book called the Horseman. It was not about corsage.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

There's no question that that wasn't a true story. He had giant underwear made for Pixel and there was like a big hole for a tail to come out the back. They got married in a pagan ceremony. He had wedding pictures. Pixel did half the time in the mobile home, half the time out in her stable. It was absolutely a love affair.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Yoshimura gathered his findings and presented them to Che Mele who set about trying to vet the story. She told us that she read Mark Matthews book, had extensive phone calls with him and even paid a visit to his home in Missouri.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

When I visited, we went on a ride in his van and picked up, I think a birthday cupcake for the horse. And we sat at a park and chatted for a while. I mean, this was his everyday life. This guy went through a McDonald's and got his horse some ice cream.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Satisfied that Matthews really was married to a horse cheape Mele brought the idea to Richard Dominick for the final green light. It was a simple pitch, a crazy ass story with absolutely no fighting.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I sold it to them that way. Look, we're not supposed to be fighting. Nobody's gonna come on and fight. I promise you that.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Dominic was all in. The show was on.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

My name is Lisa Beasley and I won a radio contest to go see Jerry Springer TAFE live.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Lisa Beasley was a Phlebotomist working in Orlando, Florida. When she won a call in contest sponsored by her local radio station to see Jerry Springer live in Chicago. It would be her first time being part of a live studio audience. But she was no stranger to the world of daytime tv. As someone who worked early morning shifts and came home in time to catch the afternoon lineup, Beasley watched it all. Jerry Springer always stuck out, especially next to Oprah.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

Oprah is Sunday afternoon brunch and Jerry is after hours. I just liked the excitement. You never knew what you were gonna see.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Oprah was too reserved and laid back for Beasley. She loved the fights on Springer. She liked watching people who refused to censor themselves and who left it all on the table for anyone to see. That's what she was looking forward to when she found out she'd be seeing Jerry Springer in person.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

I thought I was gonna be seeing some knockout drag out Battle Royale type. I want to see some WWE type knockouts.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Little did she know Tobias Yoshimura and Melinda Cheat Mele were backstage that day preparing a very different type of story.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I asked him if the horse would show affection on stage and he said, definitely, if I have, you know, a carrot with me, you know the horse will show me affection. So we made sure he had his carrot. And you just start to put a story together and think, well, how is it gonna be maximum impact and something that the guest feels also like it's gonna tell their story.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Springer had had lots of unusual guests on his show over the past seven years. A 70 pound baby, a woman who had sex with 300 men in one day. But he'd never before brought livestock into the studio.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

We had to make arrangements to bring the horse to Chicago to the studio. We had to have accommodations for the overnight, which was a stable right down the street from my apartment.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

I barely remember it because I was having to fend off animal care and control. I had to lay carpet down the tiled hallway so that Pixel could enter from the elevator to the studio. Like I it was just chaos that day.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

While Yoshimura and Cheap Melee scrambled backstage, Lisa Beasley arrived at the studio accompanied by an aunt with whom she often watched Springer at home. Expecting fisticuffs. The two women tried to get seats up front to make sure they were close to the action.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

I had on jeans and a jean shirt. If I was going to go see Oprah, I would have put on business attire. But I just knew I was gonna see some stuff that I needed to be on my P's and Q's for. So I came dressed and ready. I'm looking forward to this. I had no idea I was gonna be seeing a man married to a horse.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

It made sense why producers wanted to keep the audience in the dark. That reveal on stage was gonna be shocking, and it would make for great tv. Even Springer's introductory remarks revealed nothing, Even though he knew what was about to go down.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Jerry's intro was sort of bland because the entrance was the whole thing, right?

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Hey.

[Jerry Springer]

Welcome to the show. Today's guests say their relationships are so bizarre, they have to keep them a secret.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

What Springer did acknowledge was the scrutiny he had faced as the host of such a violent show.

[Jerry Springer]

Well, you know, there's been all this controversy about all the fights. Well, today we have a love story. Please meet Mark. He's been together with his wife for 10 years and married for the last five. But before we talk to Mark, let's meet his wife. Please welcome her to the show.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Mark tweaked, and we had Pixel enter from the audience, and people's minds were blown.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

I'm gonna keep my tone, but me and my aunt said, what the fuck? We came all the way out here for this. What the hell going on with this?

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The initial reveal got a loud response from the audience, but then the man and the horse began to kiss.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

The kiss was sort of what sent everybody over the edge, Sort of sent people off the deep end.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

That's me rubbing my face.

[Jerry Springer]

Oh, my God.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

That is so me. I'm grabbing my face and stomping my feet and shaking my head like, oh, my God. I was so grossed out.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Springer confirmed that Matthews had previously been married in a more traditional way.

[Jerry Springer]

You have two children. By a human woman.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

By a human woman, yeah. So if I'd had children by her, we'd be in the Inquirer by now.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Yeah.

[Jerry Springer]

Oh, trust me, you're gonna be in the Inquirer. I finally found a story to replace me.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The episode spared no detail. Matthews made out with pixel more than 10 times during the episode, and he even went into specifics about the first time he had consummated a relationship with a horse. The audience and Springer were unable to hide their disgust.

[Jerry Springer]

I happened to be brushing down at

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

her tail end, and she lifted her tail up, and. There it was in all its glory.

[Jerry Springer]

See, I'm gonna vomit.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Okay.

[Jerry Springer]

Stuck a finger in.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Cause I was so curious.

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

Oh, he stuck his finger in at first. Cause he was so curious. Who does that?

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

As if that wasn't enough, the episode also featured two other people, both of whom said they had sex with their dogs. It was literally a dog and pony show, One that would shock audiences nationwide.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

I was convinced the show was gonna get canceled. We're all gonna lose our jobs. This is the end.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I was psyched. I couldn't wait to see it on the air. Oh, my goodness. You know, I mean, this was groundbreaking, in my opinion. I thought it was a great show. I still do.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Chait Melee was excited to see how the world would react to the episode, which was titled simply I Married a Horse. It wasn't just that it was outrageous, even by Springer standards. It was also a shoo in for what producers of the show called the book, meaning the ratings book.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

It was carefully planned which shows would air during the Nielsen rating sweep's time. And so you do a show and then you're hoping that Richard wants to save it for the book. Yeah, this one there was like literally no question. It was just going right into the book.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The May sweeps were around the corner and I Married a Horse began to generate buzz and controversy even before it aired. Bill Bennett was appalled and together with Senator Joe Lieberman, wrote a letter to the parent company of Studios USA asking them to pull the episode. Unsurprisingly, that's exactly what many local stations around the country did. That included Springer's former Home Channel 5 in Cincinnati, where he'd spent so many years as a beloved anchor. So most people never saw I Married a Horse. Instead, it was replaced in the schedule with an old episode that was classic Springer, which is to say, it was full of fights. In effect, it defeated the whole point of dialing back the violence on the show. If anything, it implied that violence was tolerable. At least more tolerable than bestiality. As a member of the studio audience, Lisa Beasley was not amused if they

[Lisa Beasley (Audience Member)]

would have said, well, this is gonna be the topic of this show on this date. Do you wanna go? Nah, I don't wanna go. I came to see who was sleeping with who and whose daddy and the daughter and the grandpa and all that other stuff that they had going on. I came for that. I didn't come to see animals and people kissing. I didn't come there for that.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Despite what viewers like Beasley may have felt, and despite the fact that local stations refused to air I Married a Horse, the conversation around the notorious episode probably ended up helping the show. In the May sweeps of 1998, the Springer show came out on top cheap. Mele says some of the studio execs from LA even flew out to Chicago to celebrate with the staff.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

So we went to a place called the Martini ranch. You know, they're just serving martinis. And I probably weighed about 110 pounds. So, yeah, it was kind of a disaster for me. But the show must go on. So back to work I went the next day.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Despite the ratings victory, Studios USA was sticking to their promise to cut back the violence starting in June. And they gave the Springer staff a firm directive.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

It was like, you know, they can't get out of their seats, they can't fight, they can't touch each other when they walk and sit down, they can't move from there. It's like, you know, they tried everything to shut us down, you know, so it didn't work.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Work.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Without the fighting it was known for, the Jerry Springer show's ratings took a noticeable dive, and it quickly lost its position as the number one show in daytime. After about a month, the fights were back.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Sit your ass down.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Shut the up.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

By the end of 1998, Springer was bigger than ever. His show had beaten Oprah 35 out of the previous 38 weeks. As if to celebrate, he released a memoir called ringmaster and cashed in on a $2 million movie deal. He was also named one of Barbara Walters 10 most fascinating people of the year.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Jerry, up until a year and a half ago, you are not a household name. Then you beat Oprah, and suddenly everything.

[Jerry Springer]

It's been unreal. I feel like I'm just holding on. Truth is, I don't have any talent. You know, I think I'm a nice person, I'm a bright person, But I'm not a talent in terms of being an entertainer or. I wasn't trained in what I do now. You know, I was trained in law and politics. I'm enjoying it, but I don't feel like I'm in control of it.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Sensing perhaps that Springer was trying to distance himself from the show, Walters reminded him that his name was synonymous with the antics it was known for.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

If you say that you're like Jerry Springer, it is no compliment.

[Jerry Springer]

Right?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Does that hurt you?

[Jerry Springer]

Well, it would hurt me if it were really me, But I don't pretend to believe that that show is me.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

This was Springer's refrain. That guy up on the soundstage, that's someone else. But Walters didn't seem to buy it. She pointedly asked Springer about the political career he had left behind for fame and fortune.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Why did you give it up?

[Jerry Springer]

I don't think you can stay honest in politics if you make it your career. If politics is the way you make your living, then you will say things just to put food on your table. You have to be re elected because you have to feed your family.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Given your background, do you want to do good in your life? You Jerry Springer?

[Jerry Springer]

Sure. I think it was Gandhi. And people will write in if I'm wrong who said the greatest sin is to die before having tried to make the world better. I'm paraphrasing. I really believe that. And I have worked very hard in my life, certainly early on and now in trying to make the world better. That doesn't mean that your job is the only way that you make the world better.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

But you don't believe that your job is making the world a little less good.

[Jerry Springer]

Oh, no, no. I wouldn't do it. If I thought my job was hurting, of course I wouldn't do it. No, the world is going to survive this show.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Whether the world would survive his show or not, Springer couldn't control what it had come to symbolize. Case in point, as Congress debated whether to subpoena witnesses in the Bill Clinton impeachment trial, a senator from Maine warned on Meet the Press that if they proceeded, they ought to make sure it doesn't turn into the Jerry Springer Show. Then, In April of 1999, a horrific massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado stunned the nation.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Good afternoon. We are following a breaking story today. A shooting at a high school in Littleton, Colorado, Columbine High School. They said the gunman went from one area of the school to another, shooting students as they went.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

The violence on the Jerry Springer show was suddenly thrust back into the spotlight. Father Flager again.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

Violence was violence, whether it was somebody using a gun, whether it was somebody physically attacking somebody on a TV show. Violence is violence. And it all had an impact on making violence an acceptable norm in our country.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Once again, Father Pfleger reached out to his network of concerned citizens that included Chicago Alderman Ed Burke.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

We had had a conversation once about the show. He had called me up and he said, you're really making an impact on it.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Together, Flager and Burke came up with the plan to hold the city council hearing you heard about at the beginning of our series. The idea, as you'll recall, was to bring Springer in to testify before the council about the fights on his show. If the fights were real, why weren't the off duty cops who served as the security guards arresting people? And if they were fake, why wasn't the show required to get an entertainment license like a theater or comedy club?

[Father Michael Pfleger]

If they're Saying, this is not real. Now, they're not orchestrating violence. If they say this is just happening. Well, you're providing the opportunity and exploiting the opportunity to make money off of people's pain.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Flager says that he had received a call from a guest on the show who said they had been encouraged by producers to get violent on stage.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

My standpoint then was, so not only are you making violence entertainment, but perhaps you were even orchestrating it. So it's one thing to be airing a train wreck. It's another thing to be driving the train.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

We are waiting for a special City Council hearing to begin any minute now. This was the scene right outside City hall where Springer's supporters are staging a rally.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Coincidentally, the day of that City Council meeting, none of us had anything to do, like we were in between production weeks. So we ran over there.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Producer Tobias Yoshimura was joined by a procession of Springer staffers.

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

It's like the Muppets go on a field trip.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Among them was Brian Schnorr, a teleprompter operator who had been with the show since 1995.

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

It kind of had that party feeling. It had a high school rally feeling like, we're standing behind Jerry. This is as much an attack on us as it is on him. We kind of took it personally, and we all met downtown and we invited friends and family.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

You wouldn't have known it from the coverage at the time, but most of Jerry Springer's supporters outside Chicago City hall, the ones holding signs and chanting, were people who worked on the show. We talked to one person who had been earnestly quoted in a newspaper article as a member of Pets People for the Ethical Treatment of Springer. He told us he had no memory of that group, but confirmed he was an intern on the show at the time and did attend the hearing.

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

We all went to support Jerry, and we filled that chamber. And there were news cameras from around the world here in the Chicago City hall chambers over this stupid alderman who's trying to make a name for himself by taking down a talk show.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

This hearing was packed. I mean, the Godfather, where Michael Corleone is speaking in front of Congress and there's 10 million reporters. That's literally what it felt like. There was a balcony. It was standing room only in the place.

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

When they attacked Jerry, we boo. We became the Jerry Springer audience in the Chicago City Council chamber.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

We absolutely were cheering. I think we were the only people cheering. But there was a full complement of Jerry's staff that were there. Like he really was our hero.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Several Aldermen expressed concern about the violence they saw on Springer's show and called it a bad influence on young people. But Springer defended it till my death.

[Jerry Springer]

I will tell you that the fighting that you see on our show in no way, ever, ever, ever glamorizes violence. Just the opposite. The message that people get by watching our show is that fighting does not work.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

In making his case, Springer threw his guests and his audience under the bus.

[Jerry Springer]

The people who fight on our show, they never look glamorous. The guy who fights loses the girl. In the end, the audience boos the bad guy. He fights, he loses his battle. He looks silly. The audience berates the person. I do the commentary. Let me tell you, those steps are not taken in any other show, television show, even, I would say, in most cases, broadcast news, when they glamorize the violence that takes place in our society. So just because you watch our show and you see people wrestling around on the ground, do not assume that because people see that, they find it is attractive. People, if anything, make fun of what happens on our show. It's not attractive behavior. And that even though our show is not put on to give a message,

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

he saw it for what it was. I mean, his parents fled the Holocaust. He was born in London during the bombings. He lived through the Vietnam War. The world was a violent place before the Jerry Springer show came along. It was just a silly TV show, and the violence was fisticuffs.

[Executive Producer Richard Dominick]

Him defending the show was really defending the work that we did, that how hard we worked. That's the feeling that I had coming out of that, that he was backing us. That, like, he wasn't going to let them hurt us, you know, like he was going to stand up and punch back.

[Show Staff Member (e.g., Brian Schnorr or Tobias Yoshimura)]

I'm still smiling thinking about it. Jerry just proved to the world not just who he is, but kind of who we are. You know, the show is a show. Television in itself is dumb. It is there to stun the masses and sell them burgers and soap. It's the only reason it exists. The Jerry Springer show is television without its makeup on. Right? It is no different than anything else on tv, other than we are not trying to make ourselves pretty.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Maybe television is just a dumb commercial enterprise. But it seems clear to me that Jerry Springer was selling us something more than burgers and soap. Among other things, he was selling us permission. Permission to look at things we don't normally get to see, laugh at things that normally aren't funny, and compare ourselves favorably to people we don't normally get to meet. Someone actually did an academic study analyzing 100 episodes of the Jerry Springer show from 1999. And what the author found, after tabulating every jeer, sneer, and hiss, was that the studio audience and Springer himself tended to be unambiguous in their disapproval of transgressive or deviant behavior. In other words, in as much as the show had a point of view, it was that of a morally conservative scold, not a libertine. As Springer said himself in front of the Chicago city council, the behavior on his show was not supposed to look attractive. So what did he and Pfleger disagree about exactly? Even though the city council hearing didn't lead to any official government action against the Springer show, it did have consequences. In the aftermath, Studios USA once again declared that they would be dropping the violence from the show. And once again, ratings took a hit. And while violence was eventually allowed to return, again, the show never reclaimed the dominance it had enjoyed at its peak. Father Flager thinks he and his allies in Chicago deserve at least some of the credit.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

I think the city council hearing did not turn out the way I think Springer thought it was going to turn out, and it became another, you know, nail in the coffin for him.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Still, Flager says the Jerry Springer show managed to leave its mark on the people who watched it and on society more broadly. Looking out at the world we live in today, Flager sees Springer's fingerprints all over.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

His show was showing that this is how we handle conflict. This is how we handle our pain, this is how we handle challenging difficulties, Whether it's in relationships, whether it's in marriage, whether, you know, it's friends, whatever, is to get angry and to jump on one another and to fight. He is certainly, you know, one of the many co conspirators of the world I think we live in now. I don't blame him for it, but was he a participant in it and a co conspirator in it? Absolutely. And making money off of it. From the Jerry Springer that I heard about, that was mayor and other things he was about to the Jerry Springer that I saw on the show, it was like two different people.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

I'm wondering, as a religious man, if you think that is something you can really do, Draw a line between the things you do for work and who you are as a person.

[Father Michael Pfleger]

No. And I preach and teach that all the time. Who you are is who you are. Now, if you are a person that feels you can shut down your consciousness or your moral thinking or your character or your integrity to do this job, no, that's a lie. You are who you are. And when you decide to do corrupt things or evil things or immoral things things, or just wrong things, it's in you. It's in you. It's part of you. It's not a new person that just comes alive when you walk into your job. You can't get off by saying, hey, well, that's just what I do for a living. No, it's who you are.

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

At the end of the City Council hearing in Chicago, one alderman had put a question to Jerry Springer, paraphrasing a verse from the Bible. What good does it do a man, he said, to gain the world but lose his soul? At 55, Springer had a book, a movie and a private jet. But there was at least one thing he had lost along the way. The question was, could he still get it back?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

The following is a painting commercial on behalf of the U.S. senate candidacy of Jerry Springer. The Senate seat in question is from

[Narrator (Leon Nayfak)]

Ohio for the 2004 election. That's next on Final Thoughts. Final Thoughts Jerry Springer is presented by Audible Originals and Prologue Projects. The show is hosted by me, Leon Nayfak. Our senior producer was Sam Lee. Our editor was Diane Hodson. Our producers were Katherine Sullivan and Arlene Arevalo, with additional production by Dustin De Soto and Madeline Kaplan. Sound design by Andrew Parsons. Our archival researcher was Laura Coxson, with additional archival production by Frances Carr. Our fact checker was Maggie Duffy, with additional fact checking by Madeline Caplan. Our theme song was composed by Billy Libby. Audio mix by Erica Wong. Andrew Parsons was the executive producer at Prologue Projects. Heather Juan Tesserero was the executive producer at audible originals. Copyright 2025 by Prologue Projects Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Originals.