Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer | The Straight Man | 5

Summary

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OnlyFantasy – Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer | The Straight Man | Episode 5

Air Date: April 23, 2026
Host: Leon Neyfakh
Featured Voices: Jerry Springer, Brad Kuhlman, Tish Hevel, John Keeswetter, Richard Dominick

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Episode Overview

In this penultimate episode of "Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer," host Leon Neyfakh traces the evolution of "The Jerry Springer Show" from its earnest, issue-driven roots to its transformation into the notorious spectacle synonymous with ‘90s shock TV. Through candid interviews with Springer’s early colleagues and producers, the episode examines not only the tension between Springer's political aspirations and his television persona, but also how behind-the-scenes choices reshaped the talk show landscape. The episode is an exploration of ambition, authenticity, and what happens when the pursuit of ratings collides with the pursuit of respectability.

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Major Themes & Discussion Points

1. Jerry Springer’s Talk Show Genesis (00:09–08:50)

• Springer as Donahue’s Heir:
  • Both Phil Donahue and Jerry Springer got their start in Ohio with Multimedia Entertainment (00:09).
  • Springer was seen as the natural successor to Donahue’s socially-conscious talk show format (03:09 - John Keeswetter).
• Honest, Issue-Driven Beginnings:
  • The very first Springer episodes tackled weighty issues like atheism, lesbianism, AIDS, and political topics, channeling Donahue’s spirit (01:03; 09:18).
  • The pilot featured a heartfelt family reunion, highlighting an emotional and personal touch (07:22).
  • “That was the pilot… and it was emotional and, oh, my God.” – Tish Hevel (07:35)

2. The Search for Identity and Ratings Pressure (08:50–15:57)

• Trying to Stand Out:
  • Springer’s authenticity and news background differentiated his approach, with the host promising, “If I’m gonna ask people to bear their souls, I’ve gotta bear mine” (08:50 - Jerry Springer).
  • The show experimented with formats: issue-based one week, sensational topics the next, as producers recognized issue-driven episodes alone wouldn’t drive viewership (10:03).
• Signature Segment – The Final Thought:
  • Inspired by Springer’s news commentaries, the “final thought” became the moral anchor:
    • “If our guests today have body parts that don’t relate to who they are, why can’t they fix that? … Maybe the point here is not to judge a person until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes, even if they are high-heeled.” – Jerry Springer (13:16)
  • “That was his two minutes… that’s the one thing that he was able to hang onto through to the end.” – Brad Kuhlman (13:47)
• Struggles and Dissatisfaction:
  • Despite attempts at gravitas, ratings remained disappointing; “The audience was not responding to the serious.” (14:47)
  • Staffers like Tish Hevel, from a news background, grew disillusioned by the pursuit of sensationalism and left (15:18).
    • “And he goes, shit, I don’t blame you. This is a terrible job. You’re part of it. … And I’m like, yeah, I can’t do it. I can’t do it anymore.” – Tish Hevel (15:18)

3. Richard Dominick’s Influence and the Pivot to Spectacle (16:26–22:38)

• Hiring Richard Dominick:
  • Dominick arrives with a background in comedy and tabloid writing, not talk shows (17:11).
    • “Everything I did was more in the line of comedy.” – Richard Dominick (17:11)
  • He saw the show’s attempt at seriousness as a misread:
    • “I think there was a part that Jerry wanted to be this serious guy… only people weren’t buying it. And that’s why the show was failing.” – Richard Dominick (20:10)
• A Philosophy of Spectacle:
  • Dominick pushes for episodes that would be captivating even with the sound off, ensuring “the spectacle on the stage” would draw in viewers (20:59).
  • An example: “Adult Babies” episode, with adults sitting in cribs; Springer played it straight, maintaining a careful balance (21:32; 22:03).
    • “By day he’s a macho truck driver, but at night he dresses like a baby girl. He wears and uses diapers all the time and likes to act and be treated like a toddler.” – Jerry Springer (21:32)
  • Dominick specialized in exploring taboo and the funny:
    • “I could find the humor there and I could make a decent show. So that’s what I did… So I did what I wanted to do.” – Richard Dominick (22:38)

4. Springer’s Authenticity Amid Growing Chaos (23:12–26:33)

• Springer’s Reluctant Flexibility:
  • Producers recall Springer’s openness to ideas:
    • “He was not a guy who was like, oh, we’re not doing that… he was authentic and genuine… And then it worked because he was him.” – Brad Kuhlman (23:37)
• Life Between Two Worlds:
  • Springer, trying to maintain dual roles as talk show host in Chicago and newsman in Cincinnati, faced growing cognitive dissonance (24:15–25:19).
  • Channel 5’s ratings slipped as Cincinnati viewers struggled to reconcile “their” Jerry with the increasingly outrageous TV persona (25:30).
    • “There was a real sense of like, what has happened to our guy.” – Brad Kuhlman (25:55)
• Springer Leaves Cincinnati:
  • Eventually, the split became untenable, and in early 1993 Springer left Channel 5, delivering an emotional farewell (27:35–28:53).
    • “I was determined to have you know that I was more than a check and a hooker on a one-night stand. … For giving me a chance to come back… No, for all this that you have given me, I can’t possibly have given enough back.” – Jerry Springer’s final Channel 5 commentary (27:43; 28:57)

5. The Embrace of Shock TV and Massive Success (29:46–37:11)

• Dominick’s Ascension and Strategic Shift:
  • Promoted to executive producer, Dominick proposed:
    • “We have two options here, die or go nuts and try to get an audience… If we go after the Letterman crowd, we’ll get the audience. And [Springer] said, okay, let’s do it. Jerry was aboard 100%.” – Richard Dominick (30:01)
  • Outlandish topics, kinetic camera work, and lighter tone become the new formula (31:05–31:52).
    • “I wanted a host that would have fun, who would be happy to be there. And he was.” – Richard Dominick (31:52)
  • Topics quickly veered into sensationalism and sexual spectacle, increasing ratings but drawing criticism (33:12–33:57).
    • “I would say veering off the highway and into the sewer. But that’s what worked, and they continued to do more.” – John Keeswetter (33:12)
• Public Reaction and Booking Frenzy:
  • Local backlash leads sponsors to pull ads, while at the same time the show becomes self-sustaining—“three to four thousand viewers a day” calling in to get on TV (33:57; 34:57).
    • “It didn’t matter if it was real or all made up. It just became a thing.” – Brad Kuhlman (35:15)
• Producer Pressures and Departures:
  • As sensationalism became the norm, internal competition ramped up, and early staffers moved on (36:04–36:07).
    • “It wasn’t too much fun anymore. … Two weeks later I packed up my car and drove to Los Angeles. It was just time for me to go.” – Brad Kuhlman (36:04; 36:07)

6. The End of Donahue and Springer's Unchallenged Reign (36:28–37:11)

• Talk Show Landscape Changes:
  • Donahue retires from TV in 1996, citing the rise of Springer’s model as symptomatic of the changing times.
    • “We aren’t doing the numbers we used to. … They don’t want to see politicians, they want to see naked ladies.” – Jerry Springer (36:45; 36:50)
  • Springer’s rise marks the triumph of spectacle over substance, with no looking back.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Show’s Shift:
  • “I just figured that… they were getting Jerry prepped to take over the Donahue franchise and be the serious liberal TV daytime talk show. That’s frankly what I thought Jerry Springer would be doing.” – John Keeswetter (03:09)
• Springer on Sensationalism vs. Substance:
  • “I’m not going to do anything to jeopardize my bread and butter … by doing something absolutely stupid. I will not be dancing with the Chippendales.” (03:57)
  • Reality: “By the end of the first year, they did a show with male strippers and Jerry pulled on a pair of briefs…” – John Keeswetter (03:57)
• On Audience Preferences:
  • “I’m sure the One Hour with Jesse Jackson did not rate as high as the Cross Dressers episode that I did.” – Brad Kuhlman (14:30)
• Springer’s Emotional Farewell:
  • “I was determined to have you know that I was more than a check and a hooker on a one-night stand.” (27:43)
  • “You’ve given us that wonderful thought you wrote to me yesterday, you know how you always end your broadcast, ‘Take care of yourself and each other.’ … But you see, I didn’t make it up, you did.” (28:57)
• Dominick’s Rule of Spectacle:
  • “Every show we’re gonna make is gonna be interesting if the sound is off, … then they’ll turn the sound on.” – Richard Dominick (20:59)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:09–03:09: Donahue’s influence and Springer’s early trajectory
• 07:22–08:47: The emotional pilot and early differentiation
• 13:16–13:33: Iconic “final thought” is born
• 15:18–15:57: Disillusionment with talk show sensationalism
• 17:11–20:10: Dominick’s tabloid/comedy background enters the mix
• 21:32–22:03: The "Adult Babies" episode—tone, spectacle, and Springer’s straight-man persona
• 23:12–24:15: Contradictions in Springer’s public image
• 27:35–29:46: Jerry Springer’s tearful goodbye to local news
• 30:01–31:52: The conscious strategic pivot to shock TV and fun
• 33:12–34:57: The show's spike in ratings—and backlash
• 36:28–37:11: Donahue’s exit and the new, unchallenged era of Springer

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Summary & Reflection

This episode of "Final Thoughts: Jerry Springer" reveals in vivid detail how a show, born of political idealism and modeled after earnest, issue-driven TV, evolved instead into a cultural lightning rod for the tabloid era. Destined, for a moment, to take up Donahue’s mantle, The Jerry Springer Show surrendered substance for sensation as producers like Richard Dominick learned to feed the public what it craved after dark: spectacle, taboo, and televised catharsis.

Throughout, the fundamental tension remained: Was Springer ever driving the circus—or merely its ringmaster, stranded between the world he wanted to represent and the one that brought ratings? His parting words as a Cincinnati newsman and his iconic “take care of yourself and each other” sign-off speak to enduring aspirations for dignity and connection, even as the world around him veered into the wild.

Next time: The story moves forward, as Springer’s show dials up the chaos, forever altering the DNA of daytime TV.

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Transcript

[Leon Nayfak]

Tonight, an all star celebration from the Ed Sullivan theater on Broadway.

[Jerry Springer]

25 years of Donahue.

[Leon Nayfak]

Phil Donahue is widely regarded as the father of the modern talk show. Jerry Springer was one of his children and the two had quite a bit in common. Both got their start in Ohio and for a while they shared a corporate overlord. The Cincinnati based Multimedia Entertainment.

[John Keeswetter]

Bolta Media owned Channel 5, the station where Springer was at. And on their sister station in Dayton, they had the Phil Donahue Show.

[Leon Nayfak]

TV columnist John Keeswetter watched and wrote about both Donahue and Springer from his perch at the Cincinnati Enquirer. Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone on Donahue Tonight, something like Springer. Donahue began his media career as a local news anchor before emerging as a breakout star. Donohue debuted in 1967 with an episode

[John Keeswetter]

about atheism and he covered about every ism there is. Lesbianism, nudism, feminism.

[Jerry Springer]

On the issue of gender reassignment, this I assume involves castration and removing all the evidence of male genitalia. So sounds awful, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. It hurts me just asking the question.

[John Keeswetter]

I mean he did an hour on AIDS very, very early on. It was an issue driven talk show.

[Jerry Springer]

This generation, which was anti establishment in the 60s, ironically is going to become the establishment.

[Leon Nayfak]

Donohue is credited with transforming the talk show format. Instead of just interviewing celebrities Ed Sullivan style, he showcased real people with real issues. Among other things, Donahue pioneered the practice of stepping out into the audience and letting them ask the guests questions. Over time, Multimedia Entertainment expanded its portfolio of talk shows. In 1983, for instance, they added one with a female host named Sally Jessie Raphael.

[Tish Hevel]

When I say the word lesbian, what

[Jerry Springer]

pops into your mind? She's wearing a flannel shirt, jeans, big work boots, okay, that's cause we do live in a world filled with stereotypes. Today's guests say that he breaks.

[Leon Nayfak]

As the Phil Donahue show approached a quarter century on the air, the prospect of his eventual retirement loomed over multimedia. And in 1991, the company announced that it was adding another new talk show host to its roster.

[John Keeswetter]

The TV critic at the Cincinnati Post and I were summoned to a press conference I think was on a Thursday afternoon or Friday afternoon in early June of 1991.

[Leon Nayfak]

John Kiswetter, who had been watching Jerry Springer on the Channel 5 news for nearly a decade, remembers being in the room when Springer and the head of Multimedia made the big announcement.

[John Keeswetter]

And they explained that, you know, coming this fall we're going to do a Jerry Springer talk show. It's Going to be a one hour daytime show.

[Leon Nayfak]

To Keith's wetter, Springer seemed like a natural fit for the talk show format.

[John Keeswetter]

It didn't surprise me that they were going to tap Springer as a very telegenic, charismatic, kind of smart guy. I just figured that Donahue was in the 60s and they were getting Jerry prepped to take over the Donahue franchise and be the serious liberal TV daytime talk show. That's frankly what I thought Jerry Springer would be doing.

[Leon Nayfak]

Springer's show would get an initial Test run of 13 weeks. During that time, Springer would keep his job as anchorman and commentator on Channel 5 in Cincinnati, where he and co anchor Norma Rashid had held on to the number one local news spot since 1987. At his press conference, Springer seemed conscious of the fact that whatever he did on his new talk show would reflect back on the Channel 5 news broadcast.

[John Keeswetter]

During the press conference, Jerry said some words that I never forgot. He said, I'm not going to do anything to jeopardize my bread and butter doing the news and commentary by doing something absolutely stupid. I will not be dancing with the Chippendales. I can tell you that because I've been promised that I wouldn't have to do that. And I would object to that. By the end of the first year, they did a show with male strippers and Jerry pulled on a pair of briefs over his suit coat pants and they promoted it as one of the steamiest stripper shows on tv. The genie was out of the bottle and he learned that he could never go back.

[Leon Nayfak]

I'm leon nayfak from audible originals and prologue projects. This is final thoughts. Jerry springer, Chapter five, the Straight Man.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I grew up watching Jerry on the news. We were a Channel 5 family for sure. We were a Jerry family. We never watched anything other than Jerry.

[Leon Nayfak]

Brad Kuhlman was a teenager in Cincinnati when Jerry Springer was an anchor on the Channel 5 news. Even as a kid, Kuhlman marveled at Springer's commentaries in particular.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I remember you just wanted to get through the news to, to get to the end where he's going to do that commentary because it was always so poignant and well written and like it was just like a masterclass in writing every night. I was just kind of in awe of him.

[Leon Nayfak]

When Kuhlman graduated from college in 1991, he went looking for a job in television. He thought about moving to la, but then he found out about a position at home in Cincinnati working on the news desk at Channel 5. When he went in for an interview, Kuhlman was told about the new talk show being developed around Springer.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I remember thinking to myself, oh, my God, if I can get the job on the news, I'll worm my way over to that Springer show.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman's plan worked. First he got hired to work on the news, and then he made the move over to Springer.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I took it, and it was a month to the day that I was, you know, working on the news that I got the job on Jerry's new show.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman was one of the earliest staffers on the fledgling Jerry Springer talk show. It was a skeleton crew. One of the few other people working on the show was Tish Hevel, the news producer who trained Springer for his anchor seat at Channel 5.

[Tish Hevel]

We put a couple weeks worth of shows in the can to decide which one was gonna be the pilot, and it wound up being a show that I produced, and it was like a talk show formula, like a reunion show.

[Leon Nayfak]

The pilot episode of Jerry Springer, taped during the last week of September 1991. The main guest was a woman who had been estranged from her children and who was brought to the show by a friend, thinking she was just going to be in the audience.

[Tish Hevel]

Unbeknownst to her, we had found her children who were in Texas or something that she had lost contact with. And it was a big old reunion show, and it was emotional and, oh, my God. And the son stood up and said, hi, mom. And he had these flowers that we had given him, and it was like, yeah. So that was the pilot.

[Jerry Springer]

And you know what? We have a nice surprise for you today. Okay. You are going to meet your daughter Sandy, who you have not seen in 35 years. Sandy. Sandy.

[Leon Nayfak]

Jerry Springer launched in just a handful of cities at first, including Cleveland, Dallas, and Mobile, Alabama. It was part of a slew of talk show debuts. Montel Williams, Jenny Jones, and Maury Povich all premiered that fall. Together, they represented a new generation of television personalities poised to compete with the old guard of Sally Jesse Donahue and Oprah, who led the pack in the ratings by a mile. In this crowded landscape, Jerry Springer had to figure out how to make his show stand out.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Right now, it's time for a new kind of talk.

[Jerry Springer]

If I'm gonna ask people to bear their souls, I've gotta bear mine, and I will on every show.

[Brad Kuhlman]

With any new show, it needs to find its identity. It's hard to just sort of say from the outset what that's going to be.

[Jerry Springer]

Real talk, straight from the heart. Jerry Springer. The right talk Right now.

[Leon Nayfak]

One way. The Springer show tried to set itself apart was to lean into the host's background as a news anchor and former mayor of Cincinnati.

[Brad Kuhlman]

He's a politician, he's super smart, he knows about issues. So we're gonna feed that, you know, we're gonna give him some of those.

[Leon Nayfak]

The first season included an hour long episode with Jesse Jackson and another with Oliver north, the disgraced Reagan aide, about the Iran Contra scandal.

[Jerry Springer]

You knew when you were talking with the Iranians about getting the hostages back that that is exactly.

[Leon Nayfak]

Springer seemed to be trying to bridge the gap between news anchor and talk show host, covering topics like abortion and economic inequality.

[Jerry Springer]

Every night on our newscast, we've got stories about the crime and the great problems in our inner cities. And I think it's important that America gets to see the other folks, that you don't have to be born rich to make it.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I think everyone's instinct was the show can't survive on that alone. A daytime audience also likes stories about the Ku Klux Klan.

[Jerry Springer]

Love thy neighbor as one would love thyself.

[Richard Dominic]

Yes.

[Jerry Springer]

If one day another white Christian, you

[Brad Kuhlman]

know, or a show about psychics or whatever, you know, they're forced to spend

[Jerry Springer]

every moment of their lives together. They're Siamese twins. I am not only a conjoint twin, I am a person. I'm Jerry Springer. Find out how these truly amazing sisters live, love, and lead separate lives on the next show.

[Tish Hevel]

It wasn't quite like, you know, who's your baby daddy? But it still didn't have a whole lot of meaningful value. I didn't think it was just a bunch of talk show crap.

[Jerry Springer]

Ladies, does your heart belong to daddy? To the point that no one can live up to him? We'd like to hear your story. Please give us a call.

[Leon Nayfak]

The production schedule for a talk show that ran five days a week was grueling for the the staff. The hunt for more stories, more topics, and more guests never stopped.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Just the volume of shows that we had to make in that first year was intense.

[Leon Nayfak]

A lot of times, Kuhlman would call up potential guests and get nowhere because they had no idea who Springer was.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Unless you're calling someone in Cincinnati, nobody knew who the hell we were.

[Leon Nayfak]

With more than 180 episodes to make in the first full season, producers took inspiration wherever they could find it.

[Brad Kuhlman]

My producer came to me and said, we're going to do a show on cross Dressers. Somehow she had a cross dressers magazine, and she went through the magazine, said, I want this person. I want this person. I want, like she was ordering off a menu. And I remember thinking to myself, there's not even contact information for this person. Like, how am I going to get to this person? This specific person?

[Leon Nayfak]

We actually found a Cincinnati newsletter which grew out of a support group for cross dressers and trans people, in which there's a note from 1991 mentioning that a Jerry Springer producer had reached out looking for potential guests for the show. In later years, episodes about queer and trans people became a hallmark of the Springer show, often with audience members screaming and jeering at them. In these early episodes, you could actually see Springer trying to understand his guests.

[Jerry Springer]

Okay, now just let me get through the physical stuff first, and then we'll get into what goes through your emotions. Well, you can tell where my mind is, huh? But you're laughing because you're wondering the same thing.

[Richard Dominic]

Okay.

[Jerry Springer]

When you say preoperative, that means below the waist you are still men, still male.

[Brad Kuhlman]

It was kind of shocking. And so that was kind of an early glimpse into, you know, the things that were going to work later.

[Leon Nayfak]

Something that set Jerry Springer apart from other talk shows right from the start was his final thought. Directly inspired by Springer's news commentaries on Channel 5, this was a moment at the end of every episode when Springer, straight to camera, would deliver takeaways for the audience, the guests, and the viewers at home.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Whatever the subject matter was like, he had a way of finding the humanity in it, and that was, you know, his genius.

[Jerry Springer]

If our guests today have body parts that don't relate to who they are, why can't they fix that? Maybe the point here is not to judge a person until you've walked a mile in his shoes, even if they are high heeled. Until next time, take care of yourself and each other.

[Leon Nayfak]

Every episode ended with the same signature tagline Springer used on his nightly news broadcast. Take care of yourself and each other. Brad Kuhlman recalls the final thoughts being the one part of the show that Springer really owned.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I don't think anybody tried to touch that. That was his two minutes, and it was kind of like, that's all I'm asking for. You know, that's all he wanted from the beginning, and that's the one thing that he was able to hang onto through to the end.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman thinks the opportunity to share his thoughts on a national platform is what sold Springer on the talk show.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I think he felt like it was an opportunity to advance all of his ideas and his, you know, issues to a bigger audience. But I think he also knew ultimately that kind of got to give the people what they want.

[Leon Nayfak]

In other words, when all was said and done, it would be the audience that decided what direction the show went in.

[Brad Kuhlman]

I'm sure the One Hour with Jesse Jackson did not rate as high as the Cross Dressers episode that I did.

[Richard Dominic]

Right.

[Brad Kuhlman]

You know, I just. I'm sure it didn't, because otherwise, for the next 20 years, we'd be just doing political commentary.

[Leon Nayfak]

The audience was not responding to the serious. Jerry Springer ratings were consistently disappointing, to the point where, as TV columnist John Keeswetter noted, the show was getting beaten by Family Feud and reruns of Jeopardy. Even in its home market of Cincinnati.

[John Keeswetter]

He told me later that, you know, as much as he loved doing the show, nobody was watching. And he at one time, in retrospect, called it boring.

[Leon Nayfak]

Worse than boring. Line producer Tish Hevel felt like the show was also frivolous.

[Tish Hevel]

Working in news, you think you're doing something important if you're responsible about it. You're trying to tell the stories that people might want to hear, and you're trying to be fair and honest and get it right and blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, your job is to, like, find crazy situations and maximize them before a live audience. And so when I decided to leave, I was like, jerry, I can't do this. And he goes, shit, I don't blame you. This is a terrible job. You're part of it. I mean, and I'm like, yeah, I can't do it. I can't do it anymore. So he understood why I had to leave, and, you know, he got it. It just wasn't for me.

[Leon Nayfak]

Even though Hevel chose to walk away, she didn't judge Springer for staying.

[Tish Hevel]

I never really said anything to him like, geez, Jerry, how do you do it? Because it wasn't that bad then. But then, you know, things happen. People came in with ideas for how to do a different kind of thing, and they convinced Jerry to do it.

[Richard Dominic]

Can we get this over with so I can leave? I don't want to do this. I don't know why I'm doing it. I'm tired of talking about your show. It's been a whole lifetime ago.

[Leon Nayfak]

This is Richard Dominick, a stocky, bearded man. New York magazine once called him Bear. Like, Dominic used to never be without a cigar. In fact, a cigar burning in an ashtray is the logo for his production company. In late 1991, Dominic got a call from Bert Dubrow, the executive producer at Multimedia Entertainment, who offered him a job on Jerry Springer at First, Dominic wasn't interested. He lived in New York and didn't want to move to Cincinnati. He also didn't know anything about Jerry Springer or the kind of show he was making.

[Richard Dominic]

I never worked on a talk show before. Everything I did was more in the line of comedy.

[Leon Nayfak]

By this point, Dominic had already lived many lives. A former New Jersey theater director with a comedy background, he had found himself working as a writer for sun, the American supermarket tabloid.

[Richard Dominic]

What I liked about it, it was presented seriously, but it was fun. It was, you know, obviously they're all lies. Two headed man sings a duet, things like that. But presented as if this is real and it happened and oh my God, and people believed it and, you know, it was just great fun making up this stuff.

[Leon Nayfak]

Dominic was even a recurring guest on Letterman talking about his fantastical stories. His bit was to matter of factly affirm the accuracy of his articles as Letterman grew more incredulous.

[Brad Kuhlman]

All right, this first one right here

[Leon Nayfak]

is an article about John Wayne.

[Richard Dominic]

Let me get the clips off of there.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Doctors are stunned as baby speaks and

[Leon Nayfak]

reveals I'm John Wayne.

[Brad Kuhlman]

All right, now this is not true.

[Richard Dominic]

Oh, yes it is. This is true. And what did the baby say? The baby spoke in John Wayne's voice. Baby asked if I saw true grit. Reporting news is sad. When did you ever pick up a newspaper and look at the front page and smile? It's always about somebody got mugged, somebody got killed, horrible things. So here we're creating news that was fun. Nobody got hurt, nobody did anything wrong. It was just jokes.

[Leon Nayfak]

Dominic reluctantly agreed to do an initial two week stint with Jerry Springer. So he flew out to Cincinnati to meet Springer for the first time.

[Richard Dominic]

And he came in and he looked disheveled and his hair was all over the place and he had baggy pants on and a ripped sweater. We hit it off. We started talking about baseball because we both like baseball and we told a couple of jokes and I think the guy seemed okay.

[Leon Nayfak]

But Dominic saw a different Jerry Springer when he watched his first taping of the show, one he didn't like nearly as much.

[Richard Dominic]

Suddenly I see Jerry and it's not the same guy that was in my office. Suddenly I see a guy in a banker's suit and he's got big stupid glasses on and his hair is combed back and he looked very uncomfortable. And I remember thinking, this is wrong. This is not him.

[Leon Nayfak]

Even though by all accounts it was Springer who had wanted to interview the likes of Jesse Jackson and Oliver North. Dominic thought it was a mistake, a misread of what Springer actually brought to the table.

[Richard Dominic]

I think there was a part that Jerry wanted to be this serious guy. I believe that. I believe he would have happily stepped into Phil Donahue's shoes, only people weren't buying it. And that's why the show was failing.

[Leon Nayfak]

Dominic's two weeks turned into a few more, and before he knew it, he was lured to take a full time job with the show. Dominic's sensibilities made their mark from the start.

[Brad Kuhlman]

The producers really do influence what the show is and what it looks like. And you know, nobody influenced it more than Richard. He was all about the theatrics.

[Leon Nayfak]

Brad Kuhlman came under Dominic's tutelage as an associate producer and Dominic made a lasting impression on him.

[Brad Kuhlman]

One of the things that he told me early on was every show we're gonna make is gonna be interesting if the sound is off, he's like, you gotta be able to see the spectacle on the stage, then they'll turn the sound on. You know, for a 21 year old guy, I was like, that I can follow. I get that. And so he and I did all sorts of crazy shows together.

[Leon Nayfak]

A telling example of one of these crazy shows is an episode from 1992 that Dominic and Kuhlman produced about infantilism. It was called Adult Babies.

[Jerry Springer]

By day he's a macho truck driver, but at night he dresses like a baby girl. He wears and uses diapers all the time and likes to act and be treated like a toddler.

[Leon Nayfak]

If you were flipping through channels, the image of adults sitting in a giant crib on stage with bottles and diapers definitely would have grabbed your attention. Funnily enough, if you turned the sound on, you would hear that Springer was actually playing it pretty straight, like he was trying to maintain the format and tone of a more traditional talk show balance.

[Jerry Springer]

And we can understand wanting to be more sensitive. And yes, having teddy bears in your room, if that's what you want to have. But when you get to the point that you're 61 years old and you're drinking out of a baby bottle, it gets to be a political statement. It isn't. Why is that wrong? I'd like to know why.

[Leon Nayfak]

Why do you think that's wrong? Adult Babies was the type of story Richard Dominic specialized in.

[Brad Kuhlman]

That's how his mind worked. He wanted to bring the spectacle. He liked the world of taboo or sideshows. You know, he liked the shock TV of it all. That's what he brought to the show

[Richard Dominic]

because that's what I did best. That's what I could do. I could find the humor there and I could make a decent show. So that's what I did because I knew they weren't gonna fire me because they had nobody for that year. It was just, you know, maybe three, four people. So I did what I wanted to do.

[Leon Nayfak]

Dominic's taste for the taboo and the funny seemed to tap into a lighthearted side of Jerry Springer. And as Dominic continued putting his imprint on the show, Springer was along for the ride.

[Brad Kuhlman]

What I do remember was his willingness to do pretty much anything we threw at him. He was not a guy who was like, oh, we're not doing that. I don't think I ever heard him say that in the time that I was there.

[Leon Nayfak]

Even when Springer was hosting Dominic's more outrageous episodes, Kuhlman still saw the same guy he grew up watching on Channel 5 in Cincinnati.

[Brad Kuhlman]

His take always remained the same, which is, he's just gonna be him. And that worked, know, because he was authentic and genuine and. And then it worked because he was him. In the middle of, you know, a circus, you know, an absolute insane circus. He didn't have to put on a lot of theatrics that was happening all around him. He just had to be, you know, Jerry.

[Leon Nayfak]

In 1992, starting with its second season, the Jerry Springer show moved from Cincinnati to Chicago. The hope was that being in a bigger city would allow producers to book bigger and better guests as the show expanded into bigger and better markets. By September, viewers in New York, Chicago, Houston, and Atlanta could all tune in to Springer. He was trying to win over a national audience. And then there was his other job. Back in Cincinnati, where he was still a member of the Channel 5 local news team. Springer was flying back and forth from Chicago to Cincinnati in order to keep doing both things. It was dizzying. By day, he'd be hosting his talk show, interviewing angry parents about the influence of Barney the dinosaur.

[Jerry Springer]

Dinosaurs are made to eat small children, not teach the concepts of social equality.

[Leon Nayfak]

Turning into the purple messiah. While in the evenings he might be reporting on matters great national importance, like the vice presidential debate. Good evening.

[Jerry Springer]

The first and only scheduled vice presidential debate was filled with fireworks. From the beginning, Dan Quayle and Al Gore collided in a fierce finger pointing confrontation.

[Leon Nayfak]

The cognitive dissonance did not go over well in Cincinnati. And before long, John Keeswetter was reporting that Channel 5 had lost its spot as the city's number one news broadcast.

[John Keeswetter]

The ratings had fallen from first to second to third because the viewers were seeing him in two different lights on the same day.

[Leon Nayfak]

It's hard to pinpoint the exact reason for Channel 5's decline in the ratings. Whether Springer was spending too much time in Chicago or if his credibility was suffering because he was interviewing adult babies.

[Brad Kuhlman]

Being from Cincinnati, I heard about it all the time because my parents, friends would say stuff. My friends would say stuff. There was a real sense of like, what has happened to our guy. The misconception of the public is that of course they think this is all Jerry's doing, when the fact of the matter is he was just a guy showing up for his job. When he's a news anchor, it's like you can't fault him for the bad news that he's reading. It's like that's just. He's just up there reading the news. You know what I mean? He's not deciding to put these people on. We are. He's just the guy talking to them on the stage.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman's argument that Springer had much less influence over the content of his show than people might assume is one I've heard from a number of Springer's associates. And while I have no doubt that Springer took a hands off approach to booking and topic selection, I can't really blame Cincinnatians for drawing conclusions. After all, Springer's name was the title of the show. Surely it was fair to infer some level of endorsement or buy in. In any event, Springer's split identity between newsman and talk show host eventually became untenable, if only because traveling between two different cities every week was just too rigorous a schedule for Springer to keep up with.

[John Keeswetter]

I think we all felt it was kind of inevitable after the show moved to Chicago, that he wasn't gonna be coming back and forth every day for the rest of his life.

[Leon Nayfak]

By the end of January 1993, it was time for Springer to commit fully to his TV show and to leave Channel 5 and Cincinnati behind.

[Jerry Springer]

Okay, bear with me. This will be a little tough.

[Leon Nayfak]

After 10 years, Jerry Springer delivered one last commentary on Channel 5.

[Jerry Springer]

You should know this isn't the first time I thought about leaving. I thought about it some 20 years ago when a check that would soon become part of Cincinnati folklore made me see life from the bottom. To be honest, a thought about ending it all crossed my mind. But a more reasonable alternative seemed to be, hey, how about just leaving town, running away, starting life over someplace else. You see, in political terms as well as human, here in Cincinnati, I was dead. But then, in the probably the luckiest decision I ever made, I decided, no, I'm staying put and I'd prove to you I could be the best public servant he ever had or I'd die trying. Be it as a mayor, an anchor or a commentator, whatever it took, I was determined to have you know that I was more than a check and a hooker on a one night stand. And so, though surely imperfectly and perhaps too bleeding heart liberally for most, I've tried to give something back. And yet I know for what you have given me, it can't nearly be enough for giving me a chance to come back, to have the most glorious occupations anyone could ever hope for, to share 25 years of your time.

[Leon Nayfak]

Springer was visibly choked up as he signed off for the final time.

[Jerry Springer]

No, for all this that you have given me, I can't possibly have given enough back. Which is part of the reason I have been, excuse me, so sad this week, why it's so hard to say goodbye. But you've given us that wonderful thought of you. A wrote to me yesterday. You know how you always end your broadcast, Take care of yourself and each other. Yeah, it's a wonderful thought all right. Certainly the right and decent way to live. But you see, I didn't make it up, you did. God bless you and goodbye.

[Leon Nayfak]

A year after Springer left Cincinnati, his show's ratings were still middling at best and it was frequently in last place on the talk show charts. And then Richard Dominic was promoted to executive producer.

[Richard Dominic]

So me and Jerry took a walk down around the block and I said to him, we have two options here, die or go nuts and try to get an audience. So I explained to him my thought process, which was simple. Our show was so bad that stations were not playing us in the daytime anymore. We were being played at 12 o' clock in the morning. So what I said to Gerry is these are the people who just got done watching Letterman. They want something wild and funny and nobody has ever done that before. So if we go after the Letterman crowd, we'll get the audience. And he said, okay, let's do it. Jerry was aboard 100%.

[Leon Nayfak]

Dominic's influence had previously been limited to the episodes he produced. Now that he was in charge, he had free reign to turn every episode into a Richard Dominic episode.

[Richard Dominic]

We started out very sexting. I don't wear clothes. College students telling their mother they're stripping and quit college. And they would do their act in front of their mother.

[Leon Nayfak]

And Dominic had some new rules for the crew.

[Richard Dominic]

I explained to the director, I want this shot like a baseball game. You Know the ball's hit and follow where the ball goes. I want that camera moving constantly. If you look at the early shows, they would just sit. You could have done the show with one, two cameras. I wanted camera here, shot here, see the audience. So we created something that wasn't being done.

[Leon Nayfak]

Springer himself got a makeover of sorts of. He still wore an Armani suit, but he was told that he could start taking everything less seriously and let his sense of humor shine through.

[Richard Dominic]

That was the version of Jerry andu was gonna work. So I think right away he was starting to have fun. And so that's all I wanted. I wanted a host that would have fun, who would be happy to be there. And he was.

[Leon Nayfak]

TV columnist John Kiswetter remembers noticing a change in Springer around this time.

[John Keeswetter]

He could be a different person and do different topics on the show. I know he went down to a strip club in Georgia along I75, south of Atlanta and did a day there.

[Leon Nayfak]

It actually wasn't a strip club. It was a strip club diner where you'd get a little something extra with

[Jerry Springer]

your pancakes at whatever place you are in your life.

[Leon Nayfak]

If you need to make this amount of money and you can do it

[Jerry Springer]

by far, do it. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. It's the money that's the carrot that really gets you here.

[Leon Nayfak]

In any job, in any job, any career, there's no one that does what they do because they don't like money. Why are you talking.

[Jerry Springer]

Why am I talking show? Because I love people. Okay, here's the deal.

[Leon Nayfak]

Of course, money was a carrot for Springer. Though we don't know exactly how much he was making. His multimedia colleague, Sally Jesse Raphael had recently signed a five year contract for $25 million. Even if Springer was making a fraction of that, it was still pretty good.

[John Keeswetter]

More ratings mean more revenues. And so they went with it. And it just kept on kind of veering off, I would say veering off the highway and into the sewer. But that's what worked. And they continued to do more.

[Leon Nayfak]

More topics like I want my man to stop watching porn and he wants her to quit bikini contests. In one episode that took a deep dive into whether women with large breasts were sexier than women with small breasts. Springer weighed in with a tongue in cheek final thought.

[Jerry Springer]

We ought to know better. We ought to respect women more. The smile, the brain, the personality are a hell of a lot more important. And in time, they don't sag. Till next time. Take care of yourself and each other.

[Leon Nayfak]

By June of 1994, Springer's ratings were up 40% from the previous year. The following year, they grew another 48%. But they didn't come without a cost. At one point, Cincinnati's own Procter and Gamble pulled millions of ad dollars from talk shows, including Springer's. Due to their low brow nature, viewers in Cincinnati wrote in to John Keith's sweater, calling talk shows very sick and calling Jerry Springer in particular the worst of the lot. One viewer said, every time I turn on the Jerry Springer show, there's always a sleazy topic being discussed. Jerry acts innocently, but he keeps asking baiting questions. To get the audience and panel stirred up, Jerry Springer has sacrificed his dignity for the almighty buck. I'm glad he left Cincinnati. On the plus side, Brad Kuhlman no longer had a hard time booking guests. Three to 4,000 viewers a day were now calling in to a 1-800-number to say they had a story and wanted to appear on the show.

[Jerry Springer]

Unfaithful spouses. If you have an experience you'd like to share in this subject, call 1-800-is-there someone you've been dying to tell off? Would you like to do it on our show?

[Brad Kuhlman]

If so, do you know a man

[Jerry Springer]

whose mother and girlfriend just don't get along? If so, call us at 1-829-JERRY, and

[Leon Nayfak]

tell us about them.

[Brad Kuhlman]

What happened with the show is it fed itself because it got so popular that there were people who just wanted to be unhappy. Jerry Springer. It didn't matter if it was real or all made up. It just became a thing. You know, they saw it on TV every day and they said, okay, I want to go do that.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman, who by this time had been promoted to full fledged producer, started feeling a lot of pressure to deliver.

[Brad Kuhlman]

You wanted your shows to do well because not every show popped. Sometimes they were flat and the guests weren't very good, and it was kind of boring. And, boy, you felt that, you know, it was like, oh, man, I. We kind of bombed. There was a lot of competition to, you know, survive that place. It wasn't too much fun anymore.

[Leon Nayfak]

Kuhlman quit the show in 1996.

[Brad Kuhlman]

They escorted me out with my little box of stuff from my office, and I went home. And two weeks later I packed up my car and drove to Los Angeles. It was just time for me to go, I think, you know, so. So I did.

[Leon Nayfak]

Phil Donahue also left the talk Show World in 1996. In an interview about why his show was ending after 29 years, Donahue cited a competitor who had started out as a would be Donahue clone but had since veered very much off course.

[Jerry Springer]

We aren't doing the numbers we used to.

[Brad Kuhlman]

It's getting tougher and tougher.

[Jerry Springer]

They don't want to see politicians, they want to see naked ladies.

[Brad Kuhlman]

You're being challenged on every front. In terms of the visual, the Springer

[Jerry Springer]

was wonderful while it lasted, but I think we chose the right time to walk.

[Leon Nayfak]

With Donahue now out of the picture. Jerry Springer was just getting started.

[John Keeswetter]

There was no looking back once the show started getting me upset, I don't think there was any way anybody could calm me down. They said the right things to piss me off. That's why I fought until I couldn't fight anymore. All he had to say was, she said, you're not the father of the child. That's all it took and that's what got me to go on stage and want to kill this guy.

[Leon Nayfak]

That's next on Final Thoughts. Final Thoughts Jerry Springer is presented by Audible Originals and Prologue Projects. The show was hosted by me, Leon Nayfak. Our senior producer was Sam Lee. Our editor was Diane Hodson. Our producers were Katherine Sullivan and Arlene Arevalo with additional production by Dustin Desoto and Madeline Kaplan. Sound design by Andrew Parsons. Our archival researcher was Laura Coxson, with additional archival production by Frances Carr. Our fact checker was Maggie Duffy with additional fact checking by Madeline Kaplan. Our theme song was composed by Billy Libby. Audio mix by Erica Wong. Andrew Parsons was the executive producer at Prologue Projects. Heather Juan Tesserero was the executive producer at audible originals. Copyright 2025 by Prologue Projects Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Originals.