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- [00:00]
Michael
Make no mistake about it, we're going to get to the other side of this, and it's going to be in the same respects as SpaceX AI, like whenever we've been talking about this behind the scenes. But you can start to see if you squint the other side to this abundance of dollars and capex and craziness that's happening in the dollar markets, that when the shift happens, these firms recognize that it's not all tokenization and stable coins, and you still need a neutral net settlement, finite currency. And then the other side of like, well, what does scarcity look like in an abundant world?
- [00:30]
Jackson
What you're telling me is that music is about stuff, and we're gonna be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness. 1974-1987-9297-2000, whatever we wanna call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves.
- [00:53]
Brian
I say when we sell.
- [00:56]
Michael
Hey, okay.
- [00:58]
Brian
I say when we sell.
- [01:03]
Jackson
Ladies and gentlemen, I think Michael may have caught the parasite. He's been chugging a lot of water since we just caught on this podcast today. Michael, you feeling all right? Brian, how are you doing?
- [01:14]
Brian
Good, Never better.
- [01:16]
Michael
I'm just back to chat with Jackson. It's my favorite time of the week. We don't get to talk a lot, so it's always nice to connect in a public format and, you know, talk about him trying to escape the permanent underclass. But now we don't have to talk about it. It feels like he's tweeting about it. So I don't know if anybody has a home mortgage line, Bitcoin to lend them. I don't know. Jackson, do you want to ask for anything else about how to get out of the permanent underclass before we transition to the main show?
- [01:43]
Jackson
I don't think so. I don't want to. I don't want to burden our listeners with that. So it's funny you mentioned that, Michael, because we probably talk more on the podcast than we do at any other point during the week outside of a few calls, but we probably speak more just on a podcast. Everyone gets to hear the conversation.
- [01:58]
Michael
Yeah, it's by design.
- [02:01]
Jackson
Understood. All right, I do have one thing before we kick off here, so I would like everyone that's listening to please like and subscribe to YouTube. And then actually, I noticed on Spotify in particular, if you could rate 5 stars there, we're just 2 reviews away from a hundred ratings on Spotify. So hopefully it's a five star. If it's a one star, let me know why it's a one star. I won't take it personally, but if you could rate on Apple and Spotify, that'll be helpful just to grow the podcast, get on ramp media into the hands of other people who need to hear about Bitcoin and better understand what's going on in this industry.
- [02:33]
Michael
And just for clarity, it's not true. We talk basically multiple times a day. So that wouldn't be right if we talk more. No, it's the amount of reoccurring, you know, for. Look, let's do this for listeners. If you can put who your favorite host of the show is, the person that's the least will, maybe not. You may never see him again.
- [02:56]
Jackson
So. All right. I mean, we'll see what happens. I know. I don't know if it's jealousy or envy, but Michael really just likes to bring up the fact that he, he thinks the Final Settlement's a better show. I mean, I think they both add value. Brian, it sounds like you think they both add value, but yeah, no need,
- [03:16]
Brian
no need for the inter. Intermediate squabbles. I think we can, we can do with that. We all win together.
- [03:21]
Jackson
Let's hear in the comments though. I would love to see Michael have the least amount of comments just so we can still make him show up every week, but he'll know that he's the least favorite.
- [03:29]
Michael
Jackson doesn't understand 3D chess. There's a version where I end up as the least and I'm gone because you may not ever see me again. He's just, he's thinking of this linear format. But hey, real quick, I don't have a favorite show. These are equally favorite. They're like children because they come at the market from a completely different angle. And the amount of research and pre work we do at Final Settlement is on another level. There's a lot of production that goes into that show versus this. Jackson just says show up and you better be funny and you better make fun of me. So that's what we do.
- [04:02]
Jackson
I wish I said that. I wish I was consenting to what you're hearing right now, but it's, it's not consensual, let's just say that much. So let's kick off here. For those who are on YouTube, you can see what we have pulled up. For those who are not, I'll just talk us through real quick. So this is from our buddy Alex Thorne over at Galaxy Great Friend of the podcast, listener of the podcast. Alex has a good chart here. And so I want to kick off here just because it does seem, Brian, we were just before we hit record, we were talking before Michael joined too. Michael likes to join about five to 10 minutes late for every podcast, but that's beside the point. We were talking about how perhaps we are getting close to at least a sentiment bottom. I don't know if that necessarily means that the price is bottom, but we're getting very close to I think, or maybe past the worst sentiment that we've seen in this bear market. I like this chart here from Alex Thorne because he says an enormous amount of old bitcoin came online and moved on chain in 2024 and 2025 rivaled only by 2017. This great distribution is mostly over and 2026 is on pace to see less than half the amount of awakened coins as last year. So in plain English that means that there are less long term holders selling. As we know, in 2025 in particular there were some very significant offloads of very significant material positions of bitcoin. And as you can see on the chart here, 2026 is looking to shape up to be a vastly different year compared to 2024 and 2025 where there was a lot of selling pressure. So Brian, I'll hand it over to you first. What do you make of this chart? Is this something that is worth, worth paying attention to? Is it bullish? Is it bearish? What do you think?
- [05:32]
Brian
Yeah, I mean, aside from the chart itself, like you were mentioning, I do think sentiment feels like it was at its worst maybe three to four weeks ago. And I think things are, are slightly starting to turn in, in a number of different ways which we can get into. But in terms of this chart, it is interesting if you look back at 2017, which is the all time high in terms of old bitcoin awakening, that was actually a massive up year in terms of price. So I think what this chart is showing is, you know, bitcoin moving on chain, but it doesn't necessarily translate to sell pressure. So I think there's a little nuance in this chart and the data and how to look at it. But the past two years as Alex is calling out, there were these two sort of, you know, in a row consecutive 2024 and 2025 of a good amount of over awakening and proverb, you know, presumably selling after given what the price action has done. And then if you go a year before that 2023, it's a much smaller bar, which basically this year is on pace. You know, if you just extrapolate, we're like halfway through the year looking at 2026. If you say that bar on the right there doubles, it looks roughly around where 2023 was, which was also a sort of flat to up year in terms of the price action. So I mean, I sort of parse all of this and I, and I compare that or combine that with what I think around sort of sentiment, what is happening on the regulatory side, what is happening in terms of TradFi and institutional adoption. And I kind of think we just grind marginally higher through the end of the year. We end up, you know, maybe in the 90s, towards the end of the year. And then 2027 is a big year where like I said last week, like people realize, oh shit, this thing's not dead. Uh, it's back in the 90s, maybe. It makes sense.
- [07:28]
Michael
Yeah. I was initially going to go to no, this isn't the show for signal versus noise. Where this is noise. And I'm, I'm kind of like flat because I think the core deal is that this is showing distribution, not buy or sell pressure per se. To Brian's point, 17 had an insane up year and there was a lot of distribution. But then if you look at like 2018 had a big down year, there wasn't much distribution relative to like 2020 was a huge up year and the distribution wasn't necessarily there. So the price could go higher while the distribution doesn't necessarily grow. There's existing, you know, coins that are moving or whatever that are already on a exchange. And then similarly like 24, it's probably the best example of distribution because it's ultimately the price was trending up at the same time that new coins were coming online, which kind of does underpin the thesis that that 100k marker because I think we hit in like Q4, Q1 of 2025 is when a lot of people were selling. There's a lot of net new hands. And so it would further implicate or like say that in 2026 there hasn't been much net new coins coming online. And so I think it goes back to like a lot of the check on chain stuff that it's really impossible to know how this actually correlates directly to price action effectively.
- [08:49]
Jackson
Got it. Yeah. What about this, this group here? So this is not necessarily on chain metrics, but I think there's something worth talking about because ties back into the sentiment story. Right. So this is From Will Clemente. He says Bitcoin is much closer to the end of its bear market than the beginning. ETFs are puking their brains out on top of treasury company selling who's been buying. While long term holders now hold record supply, Bitcoin has traded into a lower bound volume chain valuation metric. So I think this supports what we just have talked about the first couple minutes of the show where I would generally say that sentiment is improving, at least from what I've seen online and certainly with bitcoin performing well above the resistance, above $60,000. And I also think that we've seen probably the worst of the bloodbath as it relates to ETF selling. Remember at the start of the year the bitcoin price started to decline but ETFs remained fairly strong. But then as we started to go into 2026 there was just the, I think the reflexive nature of bitcoin's price going down, investor psychology getting worse and more selling and not becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. And so that's what you see here for the bitcoin ETF flows is it's been pretty significant in terms of outflows as of let's say the start of May to present mid July. And then of course we saw the bitcoin treasury companies. I think we've seen the worst of that as well. Number of companies have sold all or most of their bitcoin. And so there's been a lot of selling pressure from these two cohorts. And now I think this really speaks to just the opportunity for people who are listening to this show to get back to the basics. Right. Because bitcoin is trading at in the mid-60s. Brian, you feel fairly confident that potentially we're trading toward the mid or you know, in the 90s, by the end of the year and then we're going to get through to new all time highs following the end of the year. So I think this is really.
- [10:31]
Michael
Yeah, sorry, just a couple things because I think we hadn't talked about this. These are great charts and showing that the, we've talked about this for like two years about the bottom of whenever the, the bear market would happen, would happen with a lot of dads puking and it's really crazy that more people don't talk about it. I think Empree was the last one that puked out like half their coins. And a lot of these firms use leverage. You don't hear it but you can go look into a lot of their filings and so they're getting like, double or triple hit because they bought the top, they sold the bottom. Um, and they're selling the bottom, not because they just want to sell the bottom. Well, there's a lot of firms still holding bitcoin, but they had certain amount of leverage that they used, and their liquidation price may have been triggered. Um, and so that's just something to be aware of with these DATs. Like, there's a lot of that still capital that people don't talk about destroying. But the other side of it is,
- [11:24]
Brian
I won't go as far.
- [11:25]
Michael
I'd hope that we're done with it, but you'd never know with this Iran conflict and other things like how long this kind of, like, liquidity constraint can persist. But the other side is on the ETFs. It kind of fulfills the thesis that there was a cycle algorithmically, strategically, into AI, because you called it like the AI. The ETF holders have been historically pretty strong hands. Starting the year even as bitcoin was puking out was okay. And then it was like, really the space X IPO where you saw some of that churn, and then it's naturally going back to a steady bid. So I do think. And then that also is. It's pretty healthy because it's been the past month. I think strategy is now a dollar company, I heard, because they haven't stacked bitcoin in a while, but they're stacking dollars. And there's still bitcoin moving in the positive direction where there was a narrative that they were the ones holding up the market. To your point, people are stepping in. So I do think those are the markings of a nice structural bottom. But obviously, you know, some. Too early to call.
- [12:30]
Brian
Agreed. Yeah. Not much to add there. I mean, I think just on the sailor and strategy point, counterintuitively. Yeah. I think stacking dollars and the bitcoin that he did sell a few weeks ago, not materially impacting the market. And then also it's really the absence of buying that is the bigger signal where we can creep back up in terms of price without, you know, sailors smashing the buy button every week. I think that's a good, important signal that, you know, this still is the freest market on Earth and there's not any one entity or person that can control or move the price materially in either direction.
- [13:13]
Jackson
Cool. All right, so let's pivot over to some news on the other side of the world here. So I believe, Michael, this is something that came to your attention and is starting to get more coverage on Japan passing a key bill recognizing crypto as a financial product, lowering tax rates. So I could call out some of the high notes here. Essentially, Japan's parliament passed amendments to Financial Instruments and Exchange act officially classifying cryptocurrencies as financial products. And for those who were unaware, I think this is maybe one of the more important aspects of this, is that it used to be taxed. Bitcoin and crypto used to be taxed at a 55% tax rate. And so this has kind of created a contract. I think we've talked about this on the show probably about a year ago with Mark Yusuko, perhaps others, where there is interest in companies like Meta Planet. Right. Because I know we talk about, in some cases, there is not legitimacy to the narrative of people not wanting to own Bitcoin directly or can't own Bitcoin directly, so they go into these financial products. I think that actually was true in Japan and still remains true until this would actually be enacted. But people would invest if they wanted exposure to Bitcoin, they would buy equity in companies that owned it because they were getting taxed at a rate about 20% versus 55%. So this would be really favorable to, toward Bitcoin and digital assets in terms of Japanese investors, both retail and institutional, beginning to allocate more broadly into this space. And then I think we could tie this into some of the discussions that we want to cover on the Clarity Act. This is a, quote, tweet. So the, the first tweet is from the block. It says, Japan has officially recognized crypto assets as financial products after Senate passed and enacted amendments to financial instruments and exchange acts. So what we just said. And then Patrick Witt says, who's the, the predator, the successor to Bo Hinds in the White House who's kind of, you know, both of these people haven't really delivered much. But, you know, Patrick will give you the benefit of the doubt. You still got some time to deliver. And Patrick says the world won't wait on America forever. We can either lead the way on digital assets by passing the Clarity act, or we can watch as someone else sets the rules for global. Of global finance for us. So I'm curious what you guys make of this headline. Do you generally view this as something that will end up moving the US to maybe enact Clarity and move quicker on legislation just by watching other countries move quicker? Do you think it's mostly noise? Do you think there's any credibility to what I just spoke to on the tax rate Shifting to be more favorable to Bitcoin. Just curious what reactions you guys have.
- [15:43]
Michael
Well, if you listen to Final Settlement, you would definitely know the reaction. I think there is something that's happened as we've talked and been closer for this show and then specifically Final Settlement because we're looking from a global perspective of how firms are investing in the digital asset finance sector but also policy as it's changing. And if you put like and created this like Mosaic, you start to see all over the world different firms are turning on different levels of digitization of finance. And so like in Russia there's different banks implementing the ability to buy custody, the Japan legislation. You look at Asia Pacific in like South Korea and the amount of investments they've had. SBI investing across the world this past week it came across the UK and Europe and the US are working on different levels of tokenized deposits security, tokenizing equities. And then also I think stablecoin framework. And then this morning it came out the DTCC was working on or they announced tokenization of equities with JP Morgan blackrock like the largest firms in the world. And the point is that you don't see this happening in my view, unless clarity is baked in and has been baked in. And it's kind of what we've been talking about. And it's also like. So that's just kind of like the market anecdotally what's happening in the background. I don't necessarily think that you're framing or the framing in general that like they're leading, we have to catch up. And how we proposed it is I think more posturing. I don't think firms or countries go without the United States. So we saw the administration come in, they came friendly and then you started to see a bunch of other sovereigns step in. And it makes sense when you think about like liquidity dollar the New York is still the capital market of the world. And so they knew this was coming and so they're naturally starting to figure out their positioning. And there was a Paul, I forget his name, he was from bpi but he was recently on a pod. I think it was as soon as, as recent as yesterday. And he was talking about, he put it at a 70% chance and he was a former writer for the House and he's been very close in BPI that a lot of the sentiment specifically on the left is starting to change. And it's natural as you get closer to these things, people that were looking like they were post start to come over and that if it doesn't happen in August, it's effectively not happening this year. There's like a 20 to 30% chance just be given like recess and all the other things happening. But yeah, I think look at where people are doing and that should be the signal. I don't think these firms would be stepping into these positions because they're effectively catching a falling knife if there's going to be regulatory backlash if they step in and then there's a new admin without the clarity for them to like build out these roadmaps that are on multi year cycles.
- [18:33]
Brian
Yeah, 100%. I think that is what's important to contextualize and look at is that these firms, the largest enterprises, the largest traditional financial entities in the United States are moving forward with all these things. They wouldn't be doing that if they didn't think that we were going to pass some form of legislation to basically give them the air cover to do so and to follow through on all those plans. Because if you really break down what the Clarity act is like, there's, you know, there's certain things in there that distinguish sort of the guidelines or rules of the road for what different types of digital assets are, how they're classified. But the broader sort of significance of the bill, to me at least like has nothing to do with what's actually in it. It's narrative, it's posturing, its positioning that there's a green light on all of this stuff, go forward with all these plans. So I think you're right, Michael, that you wouldn't see the headlines that we see every single week for the past 12 months of all of these firms moving forward with these initiatives. I don't think you would see that if there was any real material chance that this wasn't going to get done. And then Jackson, just on the Japanese ETF side, it's interesting to me, I think the tax rate thing, like you said, it made sense in terms of a thesis around treasury companies in Japan historically. I mean there's still a 20% tax rate on the ETF. So it's, it's still not nothing in terms of tax implications for, you know, if you want to get bitcoin exposure through a vehicle like that in Japan. I think the bigger signal or takeaway from that to me is like if you think the United States monetary situation is bad, monetary and fiscal situation is bad. Like Japan has always been looked at as sort of a parallel or an analog of fiscal dominance, however, many years forward into the future can sort of be looked at as a microcosm or a model for where the United States is headed in terms of debt to gdp, all those kinds of things. And so I think there is massive appetite for bitcoin exposure in that country. So I do think that that is a big deal. That tax rate's coming down. There's going to be easier ways for people to access exposure through these products. And so I do think that there will be a ton of appetite for it just given the monetary and fiscal situation in that country and sort of again, the analogs to the United States historically.
- [21:05]
Jackson
Yeah, well said. If we could just dig a little bit deeper into the Clarity Act, I think that would be helpful just for the listener base here because Brian, you kind of described it. Michael too. But Brian, you were describing that. You know, really the most significant aspect of all this is the fact that it is defining rules of the road and it's giving air cover to essentially legitimize product and infrastructure in this space. And so is it fair to summarize and say that the reason why this would be bullish for the bitcoin and digital asset space is just because it is essentially opening up access that previously was not there and allowing and legitimizing this asset class in the eyes of Wall street, in the eyes of the largest financial institutions in the US Is that inaccurate or is there a little bit more to it?
- [21:48]
Michael
It's accurate. I think the. There's key provisions but the main one is the regulatory bodies like CFTC and SEC and governing these assets and then providing the like overhang or the requirements. If you're a financial institution and you're going to offer financial services around them like the governing body, the requirements. Because if you think about it, there was no clarity. How can you know what you're doing right or wrong? And it's been this weird gray area. And I think that's the key component when we look at it from. Why are we talking about it? Well, it's very bullish Bitcoin price and adoption. Because if all these firms are laying the plumbing down or haven't even engaged because historically there's been an antagonistic framework. And a great way to contextualize it is I don't know if we talked about it, but if you dig into. Kraken won a lawsuit against I think a firm called Mazers, it's a audit firm. It was 22 million because the audit firm was working on. They were working on. I think Kraken was on money transmission licenses and the audit firm was doing diligence on their financials. And then Senator Warren did a back office call, they pulled out of the audit. So it completely kind of like messed up the roadmap had impaired certain aspects of their financials and they ultimately were able to prove that in a court of law and get 22 million. So just imagine like that's cracking. What is other, what are other firms thinking about feeling? And so that version of Clarity allows for everyone to have a level understanding. Now, good or bad, we'll see what gets included. But that allows for people to actually turn on these financial assets, not worry about it. And that gets lost a lot with the banks because there's occ, FDIC and one other governing body and they've talked about the clarity around stablecoins and tokenized deposits. In some respects there's still some ambiguity on the swapping of them, but the custody of Bitcoin is still a little bit of a gray area. And what is the capitalization ratios? There's still a lot and that's why you haven't seen banks actually turn on custody. So it's just an enormous deal because I just always go back to nobody wants to catch a falling knife. In the same way that ETFs provided a lot of passive flows for wealthy people that don't want to send a million dollar wire to Kraken or on Ramp or Coinbase because that's just foreign to them. That they can just click a button through their brokerage and Morgan Stanley and buy an ETF is the same concept of. And they'll just wait for it, they're happy to buy a little higher. It's the same thing with the largest institutions in the world until Clarity was, no pun intended, introduced. Why would they try to embed and open themselves up to litigation hacks, whatever the case might be. And so it's, it's an enormous deal for this industry in the asset class, 100%.
- [24:19]
Brian
The only thing I would add is like you might think, well the administration's so supportive, like maybe that's why they're all moving forward. The issue with that line of thought is like, well in two years the administration will change. And so people don't want to put forward these multi year plans with the uncertainty that maybe anything that is supported from the administrative perspective basically gets undone. So they need like actual legislation which would be the Clarity act stamped into law so that it can actually have a multi year view on these plans.
- [24:50]
Michael
And not to beat a dead horse, but this is basically the thesis of like early Writers what onramp's building and embedding native dollars earning rewards on it cards is because there's going to be like pre clarity, post clarity or pre administration, post administration where it was okay to be a native niche firm in this space because that was the only thing offering custody, financial services, etc. But once this gets turned on, people do not. The reason why they're turning this on Morgan Stanley, we've talked about it, that there's retail demand, they're going to turn it on. And maybe at the margins, if you're a native firm, you may get smaller, better ui, UTXO management, et cetera, et cetera. But the vast majority of 99.9% of the people, if they already manage their mortgage, their credit card, their bank account with that firm and they turn on, buy, sell Bitcoin, even if they're more expensive, you know, kicker is they're not going to be more expensive because they can treat it as a loss leader. Most individuals are going to stay there. So if you're going to stay alive in this new world, you're going to have to start to look like a traditional financial institution. And most of I don't think the bitcoin crypto world is like waking up to that.
- [25:56]
Jackson
Yeah, thanks guys. I appreciate that. I think it was very clear in terms of how you both explain the significance of it. And then, Michael, I know you said not to beat a dead horse, but if I were to just beat a dead horse for a second here, this, this is something I found interesting. So this is from an individual who's chief market strategist at a wealth management firm in Canada, James Thorne. And he says in the Clarity Act. So Bitcoin is not just an asset, it is the backbone of a new financial system where contracts, payments and ownership live on chain, displacing. Today's intermediary heavy architect, he says the bill is a bullish hinge point. By wiring digital assets into the core US market framework, it drags institutions onto crypto rails and makes it harder for DC to pretend Bitcoin is a sideshow rather than emerging collateral and eventually de facto legal tender. So there's more nuance to this post as well. But I think the fact of the matter is for a long time, the regulatory body, the political body, even Wall street has pretty much dismissed Bitcoin as something that's illegitimate. But we're finally to that point now where you guys have teed it up, so I don't need to rehash it. But we're finally getting to that point where I think all the incentives in the market shift and I think we talked about that a little bit last week in the context of Vanguard looking to hire out for the head of digital assets. But once you get not only from these firms hiring out teams and selling product, but you also from a political standpoint, regulatory standpoint, and then also not de risking it from the administration changing, I feel like it's kind of all bets are off. Like, it's all pointing into to the same direction as you guys described.
- [27:24]
Michael
Yeah, if you're still listening to the show, you've probably eaten a lot of shit, you know, in price, action, family, friends, make no mistake about it. Like, and I personally want to be here if we're going to get to the other side of this. And I can't tell you the time frame and it's going to be in the same respects as SpaceX AI, like whenever, and we've been talking about this behind the scenes, but you can start to see if you squint the other side to this abundance of dollars and capex and craziness that's happening in the dollar markets, that when the shift happens, these firms recognize that it's not all tokenization and stable coins and you still need a neutral net settlement, finite currency. And then the other side of like, well, what does scarcity look like in an abundant world? That's when you're going to get the crazy like cycle that everyone's been expecting because that will be in the mainstream narrative and everyone's going to be chasing those 17 million units or whatever are out there, not the full 21. And you know, it still might be two, three, five years from now, but you can just squint and start to see when the narrative change is going to change on a dime because people already recognize the dollar's cooked. It's just like, what is going to step into that place? And that's when this whole thing gets exciting and this framework is being established right now by these large incumbents so you won't be part of the permanent underclass. Basically. That was my, that was my letting you know that there's light at the end of the tunnel. You just got to hold on.
- [28:43]
Jackson
I was getting concerned because I was. I've been making ground beef more frequently this week and I thought it may have been some of the last beef I'd ever eat, to be honest with you.
- [28:51]
Michael
It's sad because, like, you know, Jackson's generally part of the genuinely part of the permanent class when he's looking at ground beef as like the, the, the premier.
- [28:59]
Jackson
Dude, I haven't, I haven't bought a steak in years. Probably like three years I've bought, not bought a steak at a grocery store.
- [29:05]
Michael
Jackson, we'll have you down in Texas. You can come down at any point.
- [29:08]
Brian
Ribeye. Ribeye prices are out of control.
- [29:11]
Jackson
I can't afford that, man. All right, so I want to just kind of laugh at some people here real quick. So the first one actually I wanted to look at before we get to that one was this headline. We don't need to spend a ton of time on it. But I just kind of saw this and I was like, well, why, why would anyone ever do this? Interactive Brokers, the fourth largest US brokerage adds nine crypto tokens and two way stablecoin transfers. So Interactive Brokers, you can see on the screen here. I'm not going to read them out. I don't even know like what probably most of these tickers are. I know there's aave on there. I don't think I know any of these other ones. But I just can't understand why a traditional finance firm would be looking to offer assets like this. I think crypto, you know, one of the aspects that I think is net positive from this bear cycle is crypto is like effectively impaired indefinitely. I mean, I just don't think there's any people out there that want to own these things. All the trading activities moved into other markets. You have all the rails from crypto moving into traditional asset classes. You have prediction markets that replace the gambling and the shit coins and the mean coins. And so if anything, I think the pain was helpful just from the context of bitcoin will emerge as a much more legitimate asset and money on the other side of this. Whereas I can't fathom who was actually buying these types of things on their brokerage account. I mean maybe you guys have, have an ICP in mind, you have someone in mind who maybe taking the other side of that trade. But I don't know, it's just like an interesting headline to see that companies would even be prioritizing this. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts.
- [30:40]
Brian
This is pure speculation. So caveat what I'm about to say. But my guess would be that Interactive Brokers is, you know, pretty professionalized trading platform. Like my guess is that they have demand from clients who already hold these tokens that are looking to offload them and they need a large liquid venue to do so. That could be, that could be wrong, but that would be my guess. Like I don't think they're doing this because there's a ton of demand to buy these things. I think they're doing it because they have some clients in their network who happen to have massive bags of these things that are looking to sell.
- [31:17]
Michael
Yeah, I think everything here will be speculative to add some lenses like Lens one is. It's pretty large announcement. The large. One of the largest brokerages in the world adding, you know, tokens, stable coins. I think Brian's point makes sense also they white label a lot of solutions. So there could be potentially just be demand from certain sectors that leverage our platform and integrate. As we talked about, you're going to see more equity firms operate with tokenized equities or crypto and then you're going to see more crypto firms start to. You see this with coinbase, Kraken, et cetera. The thing that I'm personally not hoping for, but it's been a. I don't want to say contentious. It's been a point of like where we have misalignment is quasi. What Jackson shared that I just fundamentally believe that we will get a crypto bull market because all of the things that Jackson shared are absolutely true. But I don't necessarily know if the vast majority of the market knows that. If in a market that we expect bitcoin to go up and clarity to pass and part of if you look at clarity is an insane amount around tokenization framework and all the different governing bodies, et cetera, et cetera, compliance, whatever that if you get that bull market in the same way you got a bull market with strategy and other people chase because of. For whatever reason into other dats, other tickers that when you get that bull market there's going to be a large percentage of people that do not know anything except for Bitcoin is crypto and we will see similar fractal of 2017 but at orders of magnitude larger. I've held that since the last bull market. I don't think we got there for a number of reasons. It was a weird bull market. I think we all agree that the blow off top the retrace hasn' expected but I just. I haven't had a strong reason why user behavior would fundamentally change simply because most of the market doesn't necessarily know and they'll come up with new narratives in parallel to that. It'll probably be AI blah blah, blah. So anyway, that's where I think the groundwork for layering in these tokens into a lot of the infrastructure is going to take place and they'll all do it because like Franklin Templeton as an example doesn't know the difference. They can generate fees. They acquired that firm Coin fund, like that's all they do is go. Long tail cryptocurrencies create structured products. They love yield too. When you talk to these people, all these different products, you know, you can generate some form of yield. If you're staking the crypto tokens, you can underwrite it better. That's why they love putting these, these products in ETPs, because they can put some kind of like, you know, cash flow rate through what the yield is. So I just think it's going to come now. If it doesn't, it doesn't, but I hope it doesn't. But I just don't. I don't see that.
- [33:49]
Jackson
Yeah, I mean, I could see your side of it as well. I just, at the end of the day, I mean, it doesn't really matter, I guess, where the speculation goes because there's always going to be that rampant investor behavior. Right now it's an AI previously, in other cycles it's been in crypto. It's also in prediction markets, which is growing probably the fastest out of any area of finance. So at the end of the day, it probably doesn't matter much just to the extent of like, we want to be on the record of helping people know that that's not something that is wise to do. You should stick to bitcoin as it relates to this space at least, and focus on the fundamentals. And speaking of fundamentals, I'm curious what you guys think. Brian, I'm not sure. I think this might have been from you coin funds. David Pakman says crypto hasn't solved tokenomics. I mean, Brian's favorite word is tokenomics. When he worked at Coinbase, he lived and breathed it. So maybe you have a take on this one, Brian?
- [34:43]
Brian
I did. And, and he's unironically, he's right. But there is no solution is the problem with this headline. And it relates to what we just talked about around all these other tokens. And Michael, what you alluded to our past discussions and debates around bitcoin dominance. I mean, bitcoin dominance didn't go down nearly as much as it has in past cycles. And I know, I understand your view in terms of the liquidity coming in and not understanding the fundamentals of these things. I will say though, that the narratives around these particular tokens has changed. Right? Like four or five Years ago there was a story to sell, there was more compelling marketing angles for these people to sell these tokens. But what has sort of happened over the past five years is those narratives have not only fallen flat, but people have gotten wiser around. What that second headline says is that like these tokenomics don't make sense, they're not sustainable, they get sort of hyperinflated. Early insiders dump the token. If you're buying anything outside of sort of the initial coin offering like you typically just get wrecked. And I will say like there is always going to be some beta or reflexivity to your point Michael, but like some of these things are, are down so tremendously and have absolutely no like network activity on them that even if there's some pump, like they're not going to get to what their all time high was three or four years ago.
- [36:18]
Michael
Yeah, the counter. The counter is like there's a whole framework if you go into clarity around what a digital commodity is. So that is now established for anybody in a rug. And the example or corollary I would look into like OpenAI, how long did they exist and how many versions of like the usage and I think it was like 17, 18, their first like GPT, I think it was beta. It was like 19, 20, maybe 21. But there was like a number of years where it was by itself. And now you have every interface that's able to adopt it. And I, that's the, the angles I think everyone's going to come up with. We know like the default, the defi yields or something that the, the vaults that they call them and like what do they wrap around? And you think about like polymark and all these poly like the different speculative tokens, like if we, you can see an angle where it's like hold the token there and then you get some kind of like yield and there's just all these things that I think are going to come because of clarity that will allow people to come up with the most insane versions of it. Now because they have regulatory clarity.
- [37:14]
Brian
That's fair. I would take that. I think we're saying similar but different things. Like I think there will be new things. Like new altcoin constructs, defi things like even something like Hyper Liquid which does have a lot of activity on it. I think those things will rip if and when like liquidity comes back and bitcoin starts ripping. I just think it's some of these older altcoins that really have no activity, no narrative, no marketing spin, no one using them, no one Even trying to sell them anymore is like the problem. I think some of those things are truly dead and don't come back. But there's always going to be new things.
- [37:48]
Jackson
To your point.
- [37:49]
Michael
Yeah.
- [37:51]
Jackson
Brian, should I buy prediction market contract on hyper liquid hitting a new all time high. Is it this year or is it next year?
- [37:59]
Brian
Probably next year.
- [38:00]
Jackson
Okay, off to open an account. All right, I want to pivot over to a couple other topics here. Let's get into the latest seizure of Iran's crypto assets. If there's any takes there, we don't necessarily need to spend too much time,
- [38:21]
Brian
but I don't necessarily have a take. It was just a headline I saw which we've seen a number of these now from Best in the treasury that they're just seizing Iran's wallets. They never tend to spec. Maybe there is more detail we can find on this but they don't tend to specify. I mean what we have heard in terms of details in the past is it's tether wallets or tether in certain wallets. But yeah, just another sort of data point and signpost that while everything's moving towards tokenization real world assets, ultimately these things are not decentralized. The underlying is tied to something in the real world and can and will be seized because these blockchains are not seizure resistant. Effectively.
- [39:07]
Jackson
Yeah, agreed. I don't know. I don't have too much to add there. I did like this one though. I remember we talked a little bit about Fort Knox last year. Remember Doge? If anyone remembers that when, you know, Elon Musk thought that there was actually ability to save the fiscal situation in the United States government. That was a funny one. But this is interesting. Just a Fox interview with again the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant about the gold in Fort Knox. He says that there's still, there's a trillion dollars of confirmed gold at Fort Knox. It's still there. And he said that he is happy to say all gold is present and accounted for. The US has the largest pile of gold in the world, over $1 trillion. I'm curious if there's any thoughts you guys have here. I know one thing that comes to mind for me is. Well, first of all, you know, it's kind of like just a trust me bro sort of thing. You can't verify it. I mean a bitcoin strategic reserve. If we ever get the audit, Brian, it would be nice because if that was made available to the public, it could be audited 247 which would be quite transparent. And pretty cool for. In terms of just using Bitcoin's native properties to. I think that would actually be a cool use case for the general public to understand, okay, we actually have this much value parked in it. But gold, of course, is very obscure. I don't think there's been an audit in what, over 50 years at Fort Knox. It's directionally there. And then I also always kind of go back and forth on, well, all the adversarial countries of the US are racing toward gold. They continue to buy central banks. The sovereigns continue to allocate there very meaningfully. And I would think that they at this point have an edge relative to where the US would actually sit in terms of its gold holdings. And that's why I think the US has a more favorable position as it relates to Bitcoin and digital assets. Why I think clarity act to your guys points earlier would be very favorable for our country. And also if we could get finally some clarity, no pun intended, on the strategic Bitcoin reserve on budget neutral accumulation strategies, this would really hedge out any sort of uncertainty there is in like the global, you know, the global race to neutral reserve assets. But I'm curious if there's anything you guys would want to discuss on this one.
- [41:18]
Brian
I mean, it's interesting because they came out, like you said a few years ago, saying they're going to do an audit and then to come out and just like claim it's there kind of makes me think it's not there. Like if you're going to do an audit or like, you know, quasi commit to doing that and then you sort of opt out of that. You stop talking about it. And then you have Besant go on Fox News and say, yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's all there. Like my base case is that it's there, but this, this particular headline and
- [41:51]
Jackson
news clip makes me think it's nothing for Michael. All right, that's okay.
- [41:59]
Michael
Yeah. I don't know, guys. I just like when I see Warsh and all these guys, like, to your point, Jackson, they called all these things before. Nothing's come through. There's so much misdirection. You can almost guarantee anything they say they don't mean. So it's just like, I don't know. What do you. I think we, we discussed gold and Bitcoin are going to be the reserve currencies moving forward. So I don't.
- [42:26]
Jackson
All right, that's okay. You can't have all the answers. I know that's shocking to the audience But Michael, I mean, yeah, he's got a, he's got a lot in that noggin of his, but he doesn't have the answers to everything. Let's pivot over to data centers. AI we talked a little bit on Plug, Signal versus Noise new show twice a week, live streamed and released Wednesday, Fridays. But
- [42:50]
Michael
Plug, I mean, let's talk about Signal versus Noise. How do we get there? It sounds like want to dox anybody's mother, but there was somebody's mother that really liked that portion. It sounds like others really liked it too. We have some folks in the guild
- [43:02]
Brian
that we had another data point come through today.
- [43:04]
Michael
Another data point. So yeah, it's going to be fun to do it. I think, like there's no shortage. It's, we've worked out really nicely and I think it's going to be a reoccurring theme that we pull articles that are the noisiest things you can ever imagine. Last week we're around it's a good thing if you're moving in with your parents. And then this week was that inflation was a good thing at 3.5%. So yeah, to Jackson's point, you can do the plug. I'm not good at, you know, where do people go?
- [43:29]
Brian
Jackson?
- [43:30]
Jackson
Well, they'll be getting it in the on ramp media feed on Spotify and Apple. So maybe you've seen it there. If you're on YouTube though, it'll be Signal vs Noise live on YouTube. We published the first episode this morning, Wednesday and we recorded live streamed it on Tuesdays. It's Tuesday, Thursday at 12:30 Eastern. So why I brought that up though is we did talk a little bit about the New York State moratorium on data center build outs. We don't need to play all or even any of the clip. But this was interesting with, with Sam Lyman from the Bitcoin Policy Institute, head of research there. He went on News Nation and spoke about just kind of the fear over energy bills and the environment and really Bitcoin Policy Institute dug into where some of these narratives coming from. And it's interesting that there's actually one significant billionaire in Shanghai that's funded, I think it was dozens of different campaigns that are essentially anti America building out AI infrastructure. So he was talking a little bit about what BPI uncovered there. So there may be like some malicious, you know, foreign interests as it relates to curtailing the United States investment into these technologies. And then this is somewhat related but a different topic as well. We can go into either one that's interesting to you guys, but Morgan Stanley expects 80 gigawatts in new compute coming online from now to 2028, which translates to 4 to 8 trillion dollars in capex spending in just three years. All of which has to be funded with debt and equity. No more positive free cash flow. Which is what we talked about a few weeks ago on the hyperscalers in terms of their free cash flows falling off a cliff. So I'll let either one of you guys chime in which one of these topics would be more interesting to come.
- [45:16]
Brian
Yeah, I mean I think they're somewhat related like you mentioned, this chart was just wild to me. Like these numbers are crazy. Four to eight trillion dollars over the next basically two and a half years in terms of capex build out. And like you said, these companies are already running dry of actual free cash flow from their existing businesses. So all of this will have to be serviced with new debt. And it ultimately comes down to this question of like if you know how and when can they get to sustainable profitability from all of this capex within the next two and a half years effectively. And that's in the context of this greater competition with China which the other headline alludes to. And that, I mean that reporting from BPI is great stuff. I'm surprised that's not like mainstream headlines everywhere. But that's like pretty insane that there's foreign influence that is attempting to block a lot of this build out. So yeah, I mean I think it's an open question whether or not all this capex pays off in soon enough order basically for these things to not just blow up and implode upon all of these, you know, all of these trillions and trillions of debt.
- [46:29]
Michael
Well, there's a couple thoughts. One of them is we called on this multiple times, I think we talked about last week here and final settlement that I talked to you guys about the different groups and this came from Sam on he was talking about it weeks before this and there was a report around it was like going back because he was working at Riot and looked at, I think it was Corsican in Texas effectively like getting the green light to put a data center and then they flipped on a dime and he was able to back into understanding who was out there lobbying and then where they were funded. And so there's different advocacy groups across all these different misaligned things from a US perspective. And then the data center one is just another example. The one in Corsican or Corsicana was a green piece. But yeah, I mean there is Just I think it ties into. So there's two other things just to call out in this articles that you pulled up Jackson. One is that there's an all out war for ASI AGI. I think everyone's from a national security perspective is there even though they don't say it. I think the capital markets is there even though they don't say it. That goes into the build out. I think they still recognize the dollar will exist but it'll be heavily inflated. So the return they'll figure it out. And also it's not necessarily a bubble. There was a great quote from Gavin Baker referencing just an analogize like if you're familiar with fiber optics and it's really the backbone for infrastructure the United States it's called. I forgot what it's called but it sits around the city and then you plug in and that's the last mile in the Internet build out. 97% of the fiber was dark. Right. So it built so much fiber and it never got turned on the frequency and the light and correspondence to turn on that Internet versus right now everything's built out and there's a bunch of forward looking with nebios and all these firms you can see that there's more demand for compute, more demand for intelligence. So it's just going to be fascinating to see how that plays. I think the other side to this which we don't have in the clips but it's worth just referencing and individuals listening can look it up was the economic I forgot task force effectively, I don't know what it was called brought on a bunch of technocrats to help them manage this whole monetary policy in this new world with AI and Mark Andreessen was one of them. And then in parallel to that adjacent was in Silicon Valley there's more and more firms hiring individuals for that almost similar role. Like what does it look like if you're building a multinational or even a US based based or whatever firm and you're investing in them and how do you manage from a C suite or governance like what do you do around inflation, data sovereignty like you know geopolitics, tariffs, memory chip shortages. Right. Like that's just becoming more one that makes sense. It's this notion of the. In a world that's becoming increasingly fragmented, multipolar and there's constraints around physical goods, you are going to need people that look at the world through a multidisciplinary lens. And what does that sound like? Sounds like a lot of bitcoiners that have been sitting there Looking at the world through that. So it's just fascinating to see all this come together. And that's why I keep going down this rabbit hole of, like, when you look at a lot of this stuff that's happened, complete other side of it is really just bitcoin. And so they're going to converge and then the rest of the market is going to. We're going to be in a really nice spot when you talk about these shows and other things, because that's effectively where I think we're going to be talking more with AI and just how they naturally converge with bitcoin. So.
- [50:05]
Jackson
I don't have much to add there.
- [50:07]
Brian
That was.
- [50:07]
Jackson
That was good, Michael. Thank you.
- [50:10]
Michael
I'm glad I can make you happy, Jackson. That's all. Like, my goal is here. If you're happy, the audience is happy. If you're not happy, the audience is not happy.
- [50:20]
Jackson
Well, it's a good. It's a good reminder. Leave comment below. Favorite host of the last Trade. Even if Michael's not. If Michael's the least favorite host, he'll still show up weekly. We'll torture him.
- [50:30]
Michael
I'm gonna put Jackson on the spot here. What is, what's the. The code? Because this is going back. I know we're gonna do something later after record for Back to the Basics, but what's the Back to the Basics code for anybody that's a loyal listener? What are they getting special? That's a tlt.
- [50:45]
Jackson
I think we should actually talk about Back to the Basics right now.
- [50:49]
Brian
There you go.
- [50:51]
Michael
What is Back to the Basics?
- [50:52]
Jackson
What if I turn the table on you? So Back to the Basics. I alluded to it a little bit earlier in some of my comments, but I think we can all appreciate the fact that bitcoin is trading far below its intrinsic value. Right, Brian, we talked about that on the last show. And bitcoin is by really any measure deeply in a bear market. We talked about how sentiment has been awful. Gradually it's improving. But if you look at any sort of on chain metrics or you look at just generally what, what you're seeing online in terms of the outflows, the lack of interest in this space, all the capital flowing into the AI trade, it's been a pretty depressing time to be in the bitcoin space. But that is ultimately the opportunity, right? So if you think back to previous bear markets, those who have had the conviction have been rewarded. So what we want to do with Back to the Basics, and this will actually be live, the, the Back to The Basics campaign will be live when you listen to this. And so back to the Basics. What we're doing there is releasing a report authored by Brian Cabellis, one of the hosts of the last trade. And Brian was going back to the Basics, describing the fundamentals of bitcoin, some of the core tenants of it, and really helping to I think educate and get people, veterans and newbies alike aligned on why is bitcoin important, where's the value in it and what are the properties that makes it special. And then we also included a number of charts, there's a chart pack as well to accompany that. Why we think it's such a great opportunity and really to incentivize you to hopefully prudently allocate to this space. We have a number of different promotions that we're offering under the code Basics. And so that would include the launch of dca. So zero fee recurring biases available to all existing and new clients of onramp. I know it's probably been the most saltly after sought after feature. And so DCA will be live when you listen to this. Zero fees as I mentioned. And then from now until the end of summer, which we in America will say is Labor Day, 50% off all Bitcoin purchases. And we'll say sales as well, but I certainly wouldn't advocate for any selling on the platform. So 50% off all Bitcoin purchases. So your effective trade rates are going to be lowest in the industry, no doubt about it. And then we also will be offering a hundred IRA accounts for free. For those who want a bitcoin ira, now is a good time to be rolling over, right? It's much better time to be rolling over out of traditional assets that are at all time highs into something that is deeply depressed in its price rather than vice versa. So a hundred IRA accounts for free. Get started with us. And also I'm really excited about it.
- [53:26]
Brian
And there's more.
- [53:28]
Jackson
Yeah, if you can believe that. There's a little bit more, Michael, a little bit of more meat on the bones. Multi institution custody for those who want to dip their toe in. For those who have been following us for a while. We're not sure if this is the right solution for you or for your family. We are offering a discounted multi institution custody rate. For those who want to just again, dip the toe in open an account. If you have less than 5 bitcoin or you think you're going to have less than 5 bitcoin on the platform, we're going to have a lowered rate of $100 a month, 1,000 for a year. And so this is a very preferential rate. Again Code Basics will get you all of this. If you're an on ramp client already, you'll have dca. Next time you log in you'll have the reduced trade fee. So you can go ahead and start buying on the platform. If you're new or interested, I would encourage you to reach out to us. You can book time in the description below if you want to have a consultation or you can also check out the back to the Basics landing page. We'll link that out in the description as well.
- [54:23]
Michael
Yeah, there'll be a lot more. The main thing I want to share appreciate you running through that Jackson is, you know we just did a lot of, I don't want to call it soul searching but just over the course of this summer just watching kind of all the craziness happen, realizing that there's just a fundamental I think still I don't call it lack of understanding but they're just like knowledge base on like bitcoin's properties, why it matters, why it's fundamentally different than every other asset on the planet earth. And it was a good time for us to go back and reorient on the basics. But then even more so than that, like I do think that we want to work with people listening to us that like us that want to use us long term and all the other features like finance and multi institution loans, dynasty trust. But me personally it's like for a lot of individuals, family members because I think about how hard it was to get like mother in laws, mothers, families involved and it's really hard because you may not feel confident that they'll be taken care of. Maybe the first buy will. But then what do they do when they want more bitcoin? What do they do when they want to do X, Y or Z? And that's really what we're aiming to build is from soup to nuts. You don't have to play hot potato anymore. Somebody can step in, they can get educated. They may not need to buy right off the bat. They may want to dca, they may want to just park assets in the earn and earn rewards and then take those rewards and buy bitcoin. Like just creating the best construct to bring in as many people to bitcoin because that's fundamentally what we think long term wins is how do people just know how to save versus speculate. So if that's for a family member that somebody please send them our way and Then I'll just throw it out. We'll just use TLT basics. So if you do TLT basics, unless
- [55:52]
Brian
you guys come up with something more
- [55:53]
Michael
clever, Jackson's going to send you a T shirt. Because there's going to be a huge amount of listeners as we increase our exposure that are just going to be able. We want to like, give the. What is it called? The I'm escape. It's escaping me. But basically the secret sauce on this show for listening and us articulating and thinking through what we're building. So for you listening, we'll continue to, you know, give special perks. And one of them is going to be it's maybe Jackson shirt off his back. I don't know. Or it's just going to be a.
- [56:25]
Jackson
You can let me know what you. You would prefer shirt off my back or on ramp shirt. I only have one shirt on though, right now.
- [56:31]
Michael
Or just Jackson naked recording a pod. If you want that too. Just put that.
- [56:35]
Jackson
That's just inappropriate.
- [56:37]
Michael
Somebody's mom's listening to this. You know, that's another funny topic is I think everyone's mom probably listens to this. It's a very weird thing that I've been meaning to bring up.
- [56:45]
Jackson
My mom does not.
- [56:47]
Michael
Wow.
- [56:48]
Jackson
My parents do not listen to the podcast.
- [56:49]
Brian
She's missing out on the signal. So we don't.
- [56:51]
Michael
That's somebody's mom here. That is the reason signal versus noise exists now. You have to figure out who. Whose mom is it?
- [56:57]
Jackson
Michael's.
- [56:57]
Michael
If anybody guessed in the comments correct. Maybe there's a surprise.
- [57:03]
Brian
One thing I did want to add just on the back of the basics, make sure you check out the report that'll be coming out today, landing page. We'll have other resources as well. And. And like the guys said, like, there was just this understanding or this recognition that. Or, you know, this is how I think about it, basically. Like, when the price goes. When the bitcoin price goes down. There's a natural tendency for people to conflate price with fundamentals, when in reality, the underlying investment thesis for what bitcoin is, what it will become, is completely unchanged. And in many ways it's strengthened given sort of the macro backdrop and everything we talk about on this show. So it's important to go back to the basics, understand the fundamentals of what make bitcoin, Bitcoin to be able to have the conviction to accumulate when the price is down and really separate the price from the fundamentals of the asset. And that's why there's a natural sort of synergy to launch DCA alongside this campaign. Because if you do understand the fundamentals and you are basically have a steady accumulation plan, you outperform even through these cycles. And so there's data in the report to support support that claim and you can share it with friends and family who are thinking about starting to allocate and yeah, so I think it's, it's about time we got back to the basics here.
- [58:30]
Jackson
And if you send a picture, if you are buying on the platform and you tag me on X of your Smash buys, I'm going to figure out another, another prize that we can send you hats. I'll go, yeah, we'll figure out something. But if you take screenshots of your Smash buys on the platform and you post decks and you tag me, there's another special prize coming your way. Michael's on mute. Maybe for the better.
- [58:59]
Michael
Yeah, it's probably for the better. Maybe it is. There could be signed books, though I might have some extras. So that, that might be. It might be in the Rolodex.
- [59:08]
Jackson
All right. Well, gentlemen, let's call it this week's episode of Last Trade has concluded. Thank you all for tuning in. I hope you have a wonderful week. And again, use code. We'll say TLT Basics if you want to speak with us in consultation or sign up. Thank you again. Hope you all have a great rest of your week.
- [59:28]
Michael
Have fun with your ground B. I will.
- [59:31]
Jackson
Thank you.
- [59:33]
Brian
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that On Ramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private client advisors.