Open Circuit – "Is this moment for distributed energy different?"

Podcast: Open Circuit (Latitude Media)
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Stephen Lacy
Co-hosts: Jigar Shah, Kathryn Hamilton
Guest: Tim Haid (DER evangelist, co-founder of Brightfield Infrastructure)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the turning point that distributed energy resources (DERs) may be reaching in the U.S. energy sector. The hosts and guest, recognized industry veterans, critically examine whether current market forces, policy developments, and technology advances are finally making DERs essential infrastructure, or if they’ll remain marginalized by entrenched utility interests. The conversation is rooted in the interplay between urgent grid needs (amidst extreme demand and reliability issues), ongoing utility resistance, and the pivotal role of legislative and technological innovation. In-depth, candid, sometimes humorous, and always informed, the discussion paints DERs as both an unavoidable necessity and an opportunity at a major crossroads of the energy transition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stakes: Public-Private Partnership and the WWII Analogy

• Tim Haid shares a story from WWII, where FDR, despite not liking Henry Ford, brokered a deal with him to outproduce the German war machine, demonstrating that even unlikely alliances can drive industrial transformation.
  • “If we’re going to do this, it has to be a public-private partnership…The sad reality of the situation is that we’re not going to have that type of public-private partnership for the foreseeable future. So now...the US energy transition is going to be private sector led, private sector enabled.” (04:18–05:33)
• Shift in Outlook: The energy transition will be driven by private investments and resilience over public-private coordination.

2. DERs: From Niche to Essential? The Contradiction in Perception and Investment

• Andy Lubershain’s Thesis: DERs have always been a good idea—but finally, due to soaring demand (data centers, extreme weather) and cheaper tech, they're turning from “optional” to real, count-on-able power plants.
  • Contrast: Utility planning (per EEI’s latest financial review) still ignores DERs, funneling >$1 trillion into traditional infrastructure (transmission, substations), not customer-sited batteries or flexible loads. (06:37–08:40)
• Katherine Hamilton: DERs are only deployed when utilities want, need, and monetize them. History shows utilities control the gate. (09:08–10:00)

3. “Death Spiral” Redux: Politics, Utilities, and Consumer Backlash

• Jigar Shah: Utilities are underestimating the political and consumer anger over soaring rates, facing a “sharp buzzsaw…that is going to cut right through them.” (10:28–11:33)
  • Memorable moment: “I am very worried about the utility monopoly franchise itself. Like, that's how pissed off everybody is right now.” (11:26)
  • Examples: NJ and VA elections—energy is suddenly a top ballot issue.
• Utilities have been organized in blocking DER aggregation; now, blame ISOs or regulators for rising rates, staying “in lockstep.” (13:00)
• “Death spiral” defined as the point when enough people generate their own power, destabilizing the utility revenue model. (12:13)

4. Why DERs are Now Inevitable

• Tim Haid: DER deployment is inevitable—the only question is whether utilities incorporate them proactively or after the grid fails.
  • “Either get on board or the electric grid’s going to fail, and then you’ll get on board afterwards.” (17:14)
  • Affordability and reliability are urgent “kitchen table” issues—DERs are climbing the priority list for everyday Americans. (17:56)

5. The Utility Perspective: Entrenched Structures vs. Needed Change

• Utilities have moved from 60% to 40% asset utilization—so rates have to rise.
• Jigar: Much (half) of planned utility infrastructure could be replaced by DERs at 90% lower cost. But utility middle management and policy people dig in against change.
  • Wall Street is worried about the monopoly franchise. Governors are seeking political solutions but are often uninformed about real grid issues. (18:51–20:57)

6. Governance, Regulatory Gaps, and Dysfunction

• Governors threaten to leave PJM but make no specific demands; regulators are hands-off, and utilities deflect responsibility—“maximum discord.” (21:44–24:26)
• Most state legislators lack even basic grid literacy—anecdote: “can you clarify the difference between transmission and distribution?” (25:23)
• The industry needs to “teach the teachers”—DER companies need to invest more in policy education. (29:24)

7. Tech Crunch: Battery Economics & Utility System Barriers

• Tim Haid: Battery storage is now a “no-brainer” capacity investment for many, but risk of a two-tier system—rich/customer-savvy folks benefit while vulnerable populations pay more—is a concern if DERs aren’t integrated smartly. (33:20–35:59)
• Jigar: Utilities' archaic software systems (SAP, Oracle), lack real DERMS platforms; AI may be the critical next step in making distributed asset management possible. (35:59–39:11)
• Hyperscalers (tech giants) may up the pressure: Google, Amazon, et al. can out-code utilities, expecting real-time, software-driven grid flexibility. (39:11–40:51)

8. Policy Bottlenecks and California as Cautionary (and Opportunity) Tale

• California, despite climate leadership, is now a reliability/cost “basket case”—highest rates, poor resilience, and confusing policy.
  • “California has the worst electric grid in the United States, and it’s not close.” (46:31)
• Programs like Demand Side Grid Support (DSGS) illustrate both potential and frustration—successful but hamstrung by limited funding and utility/CPUC obstruction. (42:23–46:08)
• Market complexity, red tape, and entrenched interests keep innovators out—“I had to pay $150,000…to feel like I had a good understanding of the resource adequacy market. And I still don’t.” (53:56)

9. Unlocking DER Value: Soft Costs and the AI Revolution

• Soft Costs: Legal, contracting, permitting, customer acquisition. Now at least 50% of residential/commercial project expenses—hardware/install down, soft costs remain high.
  • Exciting trend: AI (legal docs, financial modeling, instant permitting) could reduce soft costs by 30-80%. (57:05–60:23)
• Go-to quote: “Whoever wins on soft cost is going to win.” (57:05)
• Tech & policy workaround: Products (HVACs, stoves, water heaters) are embedding batteries, circumventing permitting and interconnection bottlenecks entirely. (64:14)

10. Looking Ahead: A Decade from Now—Optimistic Scenarios for DERs

• Tim Haid: The next decade in the electricity sector will define America. The future is distributed, “heading towards a world without wires.” Now the DER industry is “battle-hardened…ready to go.” (66:14–68:57)
  • “We’re going to be closer to having the number one electricity system in the world than the number 19 electricity system.”
• Kathryn Hamilton: DERs and organizations like Common Charge offer pathways to heal divisions and anchor universal access to reliable, affordable power. (68:57)
• Jigar Shah: Recent California legislation (mandating VPPs & DERs) is a model; predicts similar waves nationwide—“consumer bill of rights will include DERs at the very top.” (69:42)
  • “We have what it takes, but…we’re going to have to pass laws in all 50 states…” (71:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Tim Haid:

  • “What we do in the electricity sector over the next decade is going to define America in a lot of different ways. On a global stage over the course of my lifetime.” (66:14)
  • “Either get on board or the electric grid’s going to fail, and then you’ll get on board afterwards.” (17:14)
  • “California has the worst electric grid in the United States, and it’s not close.” (46:31)

• Jigar Shah:

  • “I am very worried about the utility monopoly franchise itself. Like, that's how pissed off everybody is right now.” (11:26)
  • “...what AI is, is 20,000 paralegals that you can get for like 20 bucks a month…” (35:59)
  • “The one technology that can solve all the utilities problems happens to be AI.” (35:59)
  • “I thought it was impossible for us to pass SB540, SB541 and SB254 this year…the momentum we had in the early 2000s…we will have the exact same level of coordination over the next 10 years to pass consumer bills of rights across the entire country. And those consumer bill of rights will include DERs at the very top.” (69:42)

• Kathryn Hamilton:

  • “Sometimes it feels like there’s so much on the other side of educating the uneducating part of it that it’s a hard battle to fight.” (30:58)
  • “We all kind of want the same things. We all want to be able to have electricity. We all want power all the time. And this can bring us together. And I think DERs will be a means of doing so.” (68:57)

Important Segments & Timestamps

• WWII Public-Private Partnership Story: (03:11–06:18)
• Current Utility Spending vs. DER Realities: (06:37–09:08)
• “Death Spiral” and Political/Consumer Pushback: (10:24–13:46)
• DERs as Inevitable—Pressure for Proactive Integration: (14:03–18:23)
• Asset Utilization and Economics of DERs: (18:51–20:57)
• Governance/Regulatory Dysfunction: (21:44–28:01)
• Battery Storage as Game-Changer: (33:20–35:59)
• AI and the Software/Operations Revolution: (35:59–41:56)
• California’s Grid Crisis/Policy Lessons: (41:56–53:56)
• Soft Costs and Automation via AI: (56:25–61:17)
• Final Thoughts — 10-Year Visions for DERs: (65:26–71:45)

Conclusion

This episode makes clear that, after years of slow progress and utility resistance, DERs have become a necessity for affordability, reliability, and economic resilience. The old “optional” label is dying, replaced by stark evidence that the grid and its consumers need distributed solutions—and soon. With the price of inertia becoming painfully clear, and with new tools (especially AI and hyperscaler interest) finally attacking some of DERs’ hardest problems, the hosts are cautiously optimistic, but stress that real change will require regulatory, legislative, and cultural courage. The stakes are now kitchen-table personal, and the DER sector appears more ready than ever to meet the challenge.