B (2:04)

Who flew in internationally for that.

A (2:05)

I was going to say it's actually now international. I mean, quite a lot of people flown from my country in the United Kingdom and across Europe. Yeah, it's now become that. A bit like in Geneva. You have Geneva Watch Days and Watches wonders now gets called Geneva Watch Week. Yeah, this is the American equivalent. Very much so.

C (2:25)

Officially, if you run the numbers, it's larger in scope than say Geneva Watch Day. So wind up alone has 140 brands. Watch time here probably has 30 something brands. And then of course there's another event, I believe it's called Haute Time, which is at the Draper Hotel, which is just down the street from.

B (2:42)

Very cool event by the way. I just came from there a moment ago.

C (2:44)

And how many brands would you say are?

B (2:46)

I believe there's six or seven.

C (2:48)

Okay, so I mean, just. I'm bad at math, but that's. And then there's probably other brands unofficially participating in one way or another.

B (2:54)

And of course all the boutiques, damn.

C (2:56)

Near 200 brands showing here in some official capacity. Then I was talking to the organizer of Watch Time when we were setting up the other. Other day and she began to rattle off to me all of these events that had happened in the days preceding Watch Time. So the Red Bar, Global meetup, all manner of brands doing events either at their own boutiques or private events with clients. There was independent Watch collecting event Indies nyc that happened the day before wind up on Thursday. So this thing is pretty wild, but that's not exactly how it all started 10 years ago. And actually the first person on this podcast to visit any of this and participate in any of this was you, Nicholas. I think it was back in 2019.

A (3:41)

2019, yes.

C (3:42)

What was it like then?

B (3:43)

Wow.

A (3:44)

I mean, only six years ago. But in the Watch world, that was actually a very different time. And on the opening night here at Watch Time, I. I was quite shocked because they're celebrating the 10th anniversary, the 10th edition of Watch Time, and I suddenly look up and I realized, looking at the dates and I'm thinking, hang on. When I came here as a punter in 2019, I assumed it'd been going for decades. No, it was only going for a few years, not even half decade. And I think that's the thing that really has kind of struck me is back in 2019 there were two events. There was Watch Time, which was here in Gotham hall, but it was smaller. I mean, upstairs where we were recording, you know, out there we've got half a dozen brands. This was where they did panel discuss Russians. You know, the only brands space was the main hall. Whereas now they're using kind of every nook and cranny to. To really maximize.

C (4:36)

They've got about eight or 10 brands in what just last Year was effectively a coat room.

B (4:41)

Exactly. I have to, I have to give them credit for. There was a lot I think thought put into this and it doesn't feel jammed.

A (4:48)

Oh no. And I think that's the thing that's been really interesting is coming from 2019 to today, the show still has here the very. It's a very high quality production, like very professional. Very. The venue helps a huge amount as well, but it doesn't, you know, it's got the same caliber of brands. Windup has changed beyond recognition. So in 2019 it was down in Chelsea market and I'd never been to Chelsea market. So that was a great revelation. Like what a cool part of New York.

B (5:18)

Yeah. And that that building also has a lot of character, just in general.

C (5:21)

Yeah.

A (5:21)

And it was a venue. It was kind of a one, one floor with a few steps, so sort of, you know, one space. And I wish I remember exactly how many there, but I'm going to say probably in the 40 to 50 ish. But I mean it was to give you an idea for era for anyone who's been to a recent wind up and seeing the huge booths that brands like Christopher Ward have. You know, Christopher Ward wasn't a major sponsor but they had a double table and we're talking about a table with a tablecloth. You know, it was very much like that and you know, behind each brand there was, you know, a little sign but it was, you know, it was very small. I can't guesstimate how many people were there but you know, you just kind of wandered around really chilled vibes.

C (6:04)

Was there a line to get in or you just strolled right in?

A (6:07)

No line, you just walked straight in.

B (6:09)

It occurs to me as you say this, I was thinking recently, I'm trying, we'll have to find the source and include it. But recently there was a report that, that showed the gross revenues of Christopher Ward year over year, which has grown quite shockingly, I mean significantly since 2022.

A (6:25)

It's just skyrocketed.

B (6:27)

Exactly. And what I was going to say was in 2019, you know, you just said like, well, they weren't a giant sponsor. Part of that. It wasn't as big, not remotely, not remotely as big of a company. And I think that's also indicative of what the bigger story is here about New York Watch Week. One thing that is great about this particular event, which I would argue is sort is unique relative to some of the other sort of large, you know, global or semi global regional events like Dubai Watch Week or Geneva Watch Days is that the price points that are on display here start at, in some cases, just under a hundred dollars.

C (7:05)

You literally just bought a watch for less than 100.

B (7:08)

I did. Before the recording, I just bought an Oberlin Watch company watch because I went to Oberlin and I. And the school colors were on it.

C (7:13)

What is Oberlin?

B (7:14)

Oberlin is. Is the school that I paid money to go to.

C (7:17)

Is that a. Like a college, A university?

B (7:19)

It's a technical school.

C (7:20)

A technical school, yes. The listeners may not have ever heard of it.

B (7:25)

It's a technical school for weird artists like me.

C (7:27)

Okay.

B (7:27)

But anyway, but so it starts right around there and it goes all the way up to millions. You know, downstairs, a chopar. I suspect there's. There's probably something in that. That booth or. Or somewhere around here that's over a million dollars.

C (7:40)

Yeah, there's Grubel Forsey Grubel forces.

B (7:42)

There you go. Boom. But anyway, my point being. So what we're really seeing here in New York now is a cross section of the entirety of the watch industry. And that's really the evolution of Windup to me. It's this pivot from where it started, which was a real niche, a real niche sort of collector, enthusiast driven event. Gabe and I went to one the year preceding. I think it was the first one in San Francisco, which was essentially in a storefront.

C (8:08)

It was a literal, like art galleries. Yeah.

B (8:11)

You know, I can't imagine there were more than 30 or 40 brands there at most.

C (8:15)

Yeah, about right.

B (8:16)

And like the big. The big sponsor there was Oris. Much respect to all of our friend Rob Kaplan from Topper Jewelers, who, who was there repping Oris at the time, as I recall. But it really was this niche thing. And now when you look at this Windup in particular, I would go so far as to say it really isn't an enthusiast event anymore. I don't mean that as an insult. I would say it is really in many ways a broad appeal mass appeal watch event that speaks to certainly enthusiasts. Like, there are people I'm sure going in there looking for, you know, Darika or Micro Mil Spec or something that's like a very enthusiast driven brand. And then I think there are people who are just showing up there who are like, oh, this sounds kind of neat.

C (8:58)

Absolutely. So, I mean, there was quite literally, I'm sure there was yesterday, but on Friday when I wanted to walk over, before we opened up here, there was a line around the corner. The wait to get into Windup was over an hour. And I was up to my usual hijinks. And I just started like interviewing essentially people in line to kind of get a sense of, you know, who they were, why they were there, what they were interested in and that kind of thing. And it was a very casual audience. There are a lot of people who just kind of knew it was a watch fair, but didn't know much about it. There wasn't really anything in particular they wanted to see. And that's not a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. That to me, that's wind up going almost inverting itself from this hardcore, very curated enthusiast event to something that is now more of a lighthouse for watch enthusiasm. Watch enthusiasm in the broader culture. There were people who I got the impression it's like they were there in line waiting to go into wind up, maybe instead of like going to the Natural History Museum that day. Like it was something to do in New York. And that's kind of cool as well.

B (10:02)

So this is what, this is why the Christopher Ward thing brought that thought into my mind. Because in many ways, I would argue Christopher Ward is kind of a perfect example of exactly that. Which is to say, you know, that brand in 2019, 2018, was not. And forget about the revenue just from, from a product. Product diversity standpoint is not the brand we have today. And now whether you have, you know, was it the Loco. Yes.

A (10:28)

The latest one?

B (10:28)

Yes, the Loco, the Belcanto, you know, that represents like a particular. I guess you could kind of throw in the. The experimental diver from a few years ago that I think Armin Strom helped on the development of or manufacture of, you know, into that one bucket that is like extremely enthusiast driven, you know. And then of course, the majority of the line is like a pretty accessible, you know, $1,000 to $1,500, give or take range. That is, to your point, for a guy or a woman looking for just watch, you know, good. A fine watch.

C (10:57)

Yeah.

B (10:57)

You know that. That's where I suspect they're seeing significant growth.

C (11:02)

Yeah, I see like Trident, I think it is, and Sealanders and things like that on the wrists of ordinary people who don't know that much about watches and are just happy to have a high quality watch. And what's interesting about Christopher Ward is it seems like, and Nick, you might be, you're probably more informed about this stuff than we are by proximity. And it seems like they've both managed to broaden their popular appeal and their appeal to hardcore enthusiasts simultaneously, and both have really helped the business.

A (11:30)

Oh, 100%. And I was going to say the, I think the interesting thing is, you know, for a lot of, you know, speaking as a brand owner, when you first start your company, there's this big desire, you know, who are you going to speak to? It's going to be the watch enthusiasts, the collectors, because they're the most open audience to new and, you know, to try and talk to the members of the public who might buy a nice watch once every so often. Very, very difficult, you know, it's very difficult to get in front of that audience. And I kind of feel like with watches in general and certainly with, with the wind up fair, it's very reflective of what a lot of, you know, micro brands, small independents will go through, like Christopher Ward, where you start off, where it's very much in a kind of a closed room of enthusiasts and then as it begins to grow, it then gets this weight behind it. I mean, before, before I flew to New York, I noticed, you know, the number of articles being written about both Windup and Watch Time in non watch publications.

C (12:32)

Future in the New York Times two days ago, pretty remarkable.

A (12:34)

There's Forbes magazine covered it as well. And you know, you're suddenly realizing like these shows and what's going on in New York right now has become big enough to warrant space in business pages, in culture pages of, you know, national and international publications which don't focus on watches. I think that's incredible.

B (12:56)

It is, but. Well, not but. And being a part of it is, is big business too. And that's one thing I'd like to talk about because you, having both attended, to use your word as a punter, but primarily as a brand owner for the last few years have made more and more and more investment, not just in the, the physical spaces that you are in, but with the amount of staff that's coming, the amount of inventory that, that certainly that we buy, but that you also commit and manufacture and do all of these things. This is, this is real business. Not just from a revenue standpoint for the producers of these events, but a serious investment and a considered investment for every single brand that's here at every level. Whether you are, whether you are a chopard or a blancpain or what have you, that are the, you know, have the massive installations, relatively speaking, inside the space, or if you're the brands that we're here representing you, Ming, et cetera, these are significant investments of time, of money, of staffing. So can you talk a little bit about two things? One, for those who are listening, what goes into this from a strategic and from a financial planning standpoint into attending these events. Because not everybody thinks about that. When they come up to a booth and they see you, they may not know everything that you did to get there.

C (14:09)

So if you could talk a little.

B (14:10)

Bit about that and then qualify that with why it's worth it or why.

A (14:14)

It isn't, it's really interesting because a few years ago I went on a YouTube live stream and it was all about watch events. And in the live commentary and some of the people on the panel discussion were saying basically, like, you know, why isn't a brand like Fierce at every event? Like, you know, why when I've, you know, there's a small event taking part in my little town in the middle of nowhere is fear is not there. You know, it. You know, you should be here to show the collectors and enthusiasts what you're making.

B (14:44)

And the Humleth watch community is dying for you to attend.

A (14:49)

Thing is, I started off kind of going, okay, well, let's start talking about some of the economics, but also some of the realities. You know, there's a cost to, to have the booth. There's then a cost to hire the furniture, a cost for the graphics, lighting, power sources. Okay, so we've got that. You then need display materials, point of sale. Now, these are things that we can, you know, we, we can use multiple times, multiple events. But my colleague Harvey, he had brought those all out from Bristol, and that means a, you know, 30 kilo oversized checked bag on flights. So he's not only got to lug this bag around, but that therefore means taxis, not public transport, going to the airport, you know, extra fees with Virgin Atlantic, you know, and, you know, this is just going down one little rabbit hole of just setting up the stand, then the watches. Okay, so we've, we've got a set of watches that people can try on. We take these around the world. Well, they need to travel with a document called Akane the Carne. We pay for once a year for all of our international events. The insurance on that carne costs us £12,000. So that is not a cheap piece of paper which we need to have, as well as having.

C (16:06)

Remarkable. That effectively takes the place of an event on its own.

A (16:10)

Exactly, exactly.

B (16:11)

And that's the same as some jeweler block policies.

A (16:14)

This is it. And I was about to say, then we've got to add on the special insurance for us traveling and flying with the watches also, we have to build a whole set of watches. And, you know, Fierce is not A huge company. We're growing, but we're not huge. So actually, if you've got to build one of everything, knowing that those watches won't be sold, well, that's got to go against a budget because they're being taken out of the stock of sellable watches. I mentioned my colleague Harvey, who's out here with me. Well, we have my other colleague Andrew as well. So then you're looking at flights, hotels, sustenance, the. The Ubers, the subways, the. You know, when you start adding it up, a trip like this can run to tens and tens of thousands of pounds.

B (16:57)

And that's not doing it luxuriously.

A (16:59)

No, no, that's it.

C (17:00)

You know, Harvey told me he's literally sleeping in a pod.

B (17:03)

Is that. Is that true?

A (17:05)

I mean, the hotel is called Pod, but it's not quite like that.

C (17:07)

Let's. Oh, it's called pod, but he's not actually sleeping in a pod. Okay, got it. He just has to share a bathroom.

A (17:14)

I mean, he's got a. He's got his own hotel room. He's a lucky lad, you know?

C (17:18)

All right, fair enough.

A (17:20)

But the thing is, we're talking about one event, and last year, Fierce took part in 37 events.

B (17:28)

Good Lord.

A (17:29)

29 cities. And the majority of those were international. So, okay, they're not all going to be of quite the same level of this and cost of this. But there's no such thing as a cheap event. You know, sometimes we'll get contacted and someone will say, oh, it'll be less.

C (17:45)

Than $1,000 to attend, or it's nothing to attend. And oftentimes it's not the attendance fee that's the main driver of costs.

B (17:54)

So this begs, I think, and first of all, thank you for your transparency on that, because one thing that we heard, and we heard this a lot during the. When the tariffs were initially introduced, this idea that, you know, oh, well, there's 10% or 39% of money in the pipe that can be just, you know, cut and trim.

C (18:15)

Just take it out of marketing.

B (18:16)

Just take it out of marketing. But of course, what you've just described is marketing, I would imagine.

C (18:22)

Nicholas, are events your single largest marketing line item?

A (18:26)

Yes. Yes.

C (18:27)

I mean, so that's the marketing budget.

A (18:29)

And we'll spend six figures a year on events. But it's interesting to your point about whether it's worth it or. What we did Last year was 37 events in 29 countries. This year, we've done considerably fewer events, but we've spent more on those events. And it's quite a change for us. So it means we're getting on fewer planes. But when we are, where we're going to are bigger, more established events, which costs more. But it's the, you know, to be honest, no one knows if this is right or not. I'll review it at the end of December. But it's to see whether do we need to be in as many places as possible or do we need to be in fewer but higher quality places.

B (19:13)

Yeah, I mean these are important business questions, but they also track against the trajectory of this New York Watch Week, which is to say as New York Watch Week gets bigger and speaks to a larger audience of people, then the perennial question of is an event measured against a sales goal or is an event measured against a marketing goal? And those two don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive. But that question becomes more and more and more pressing. You know, when I think about this, for example, when I think about Collective invests in attending an event like this, all the same considerations come into play, although obviously some are more unique to you, like point of sale items and things of that nature. But you know, we have four team members out here, myself included, all of those things associated, all of the inventory that we commit to from our partners for these events.

C (20:03)

We buy a bunch of inventory in anticipation of these shows. And that inventory may or may not sell at the show. So taking the risk on that, it.

B (20:10)

Belongs to us regardless. And it begs that larger question because one can say to themselves, and I think about this as the audience gets bigger, like, okay, and I come from a marketing background, so you know, let's say that this event costs Collective. I'm going to back of the napkin it, excluding inventory, probably about 25 grand, give or take more. But sure, let's just call it 25 grand. That's a significant amount of money to spend on a marketing initiative. Plus there's the opportunity cost of the entire company being focused on this and not, not, not being focused on other things.

A (20:42)

I'm just going to quickly jump in on say, you know, this is a cost that no one really thinks about. So you know, take Harvey. He's been in the US now for two weeks doing this event and another event. But that means that he's not in Bristol, so he's still got to work, but on a five hour time difference. You know, I've, I've been in the US now for two weeks. And again, you know, I've a managing director of a company of 13 people. I've got to have weekly, you know, departmental meetings. I've got to respond to messages, but all of that has to be crammed into certain hours of the day. And, you know, I don't want to think people say, oh, woe betide me, you know, I'm not complaining. It's wonderful to be here in New York.

B (21:18)

It's not a complaint, it's an opportunity.

A (21:20)

But I mean, on the subway to Gotham hall this morning, I had to message a couple of people who I've got meetings with this coming week and basically say, I'm really sorry, I'm going to have to cancel the meeting because I just haven't got the work done to discuss with you. Can we push it back a week? And that's fine, but these are big, important projects which now get pushed back a week because, you know, the, the dream is I do a day at the stand, go out for dinner, go home, clear my emails. No, I, you, by the time you get back to wherever you're staying, you crash into bed exhausted, you wake up four hours later and you, you know, and I don't want people to think, you know, we're complaining, but it's the fact that you, you have to focus on that or the business. And I know when you know, you guys are out here with your team, like it's very difficult to then be staying on, you know, someone who's on your website, who's, you know, contacting you over the weekend, wanting a response. It's like, how do you do that?

C (22:09)

The phone line doesn't stop ringing.

A (22:10)

Exactly.

C (22:11)

The emails don't stop. The site, the website and the text message, like all of that stuff. No one out there is looking at our shop online or sitting at home thinking about a watch and thinking to themselves, I'll wait until after watch time. Nor should they.

A (22:25)

No, right, exactly.

C (22:26)

All, all of the other operations of the, of the business have to happen as well.

B (22:31)

So if we zoom all the way out now, the picture of, of an event like this is interesting because if you look at it from the consumer standpoint now we have a much, much broader spectrum of people attending. From first time, just sort of, you know, curious looky loos all the way up to very committed and in some cases very significantly financially committed collectors as well. You have brands and manufacturers running the gamut from folks that are attempting to fund their business through Kickstarters, all the way up through well established businesses and growing businesses that are here. So there's millions, tens upon tens and upon tens of millions of dollars of just B2B money that's being spent here, which then goes to the other side of it, which is feeding the ecosystem of the media companies that have essentially established and built this. Right? Because this doesn't exist without Watch Time magazine's fundamental investment in this tentpole and Warren and Wound's fundamental investment in their tentpole. Everything else has been built on the shoulders of what they invested in and created. And you could even make an argument that even that is built on the shoulders of. Of folks like Hodinkee, who created an entirely new entry point into the watch industry that didn't exist there, because all of these things are a set of dominoes that have created the market position that we're in right now.

C (23:52)

I remember when Hodinkee used to do those kind of like they still do them, but 10 years ago they would do, you know, like host an event and they do these, like, photo reports. And I remember thinking this 10 years ago. It was so novel to me that there were Watch events that people went to and attended and much less wore interesting watches, and there were things to look at and let alone reporting. And that concept was kind of radical. And I'd been into watches nearly 10 years before even that. And it was this lonely hobby in the corner of the Internet. And I think what's interesting about Worn and Wound in particular, I'm not sure how it works or Watch Time is, I would guess, just looking at it as an outsider. And I could be wrong, but that Windup is they're probably their largest revenue generator. And just for the business of wine.

B (24:42)

I have no idea. It's profitability from a gross revenue.

C (24:44)

What's making them probably it's. It's probably Windup, which is really interesting because for most publishing companies traditionally, events have been an enhancement to their core revenue, which has been advertising and, you know, sponsorships. And then events have been a way to get incrementally more advertising or marketing dollars, but it was never the core of the business. Of course, media has changed a ton. Watch media has changed a ton. But it's fascinating to me that not only have events gone from being this curiosity, you know, with these photo essays that felt voyeuristic and odd, to now being the core business of a company like Worn and Wound.

A (25:25)

Can I just remind us all of one crazy thing? When you talk about Watch events not, you know, being, you know, 10 years ago, being these strange things they really were, because Baselworld, remember Baselworld, Rest in Peace, you know, that finished in 2019, it was killed in the pandemic. For a whole host of reasons that had some public days, but sihh, which became Watches and Wonders, that only had public days from 20. In 2018, it had one public day and in 2019, it had two public days.

C (25:59)

Interesting. I didn't know they did it at all.

A (26:01)

No. So when I used to go in 2017, 2016, 2015, I had to go with a trade industry pass. You know, the only watch events were back in the sort of, you know, the 2000s and the 20s, the early 2010s, they were all B2B. And so this idea of the kind of consumer event is very new, but it's very interesting as a watch brand because it's every single week of the year we get pitched a new watch event somewhere in the world.

C (26:28)

And I would guess every single week of the year, there's probably some watch event that you could be at that you're maybe making a decision.

A (26:35)

A few weekends ago, I opened my phone, I'm. I'm on, you know, a weekend away with my husband, and I'm suddenly seeing that there's this big, huge watch event taking place in Paris. And I'm seeing this and I'm screenshotting the Instagram and sending it to my marketing manager going, do we know this is like, Paris is a few hours on the train from London. You know, this is on our doorstep and it's being hosted in a stunning building and really good brand roster. I'm thinking, I don't even know this event's going on. And I've been in the industry, you know, for the best part of 15 years. And so it's, you know, it's crazy when you think, you know, I'm not saying I should know all the events, but there is so much going on and that makes it very difficult as a brand to know where to put your marketing pounds or dollars and decide who you want to partner with, what show, what event.

B (27:25)

So this now triggers a really difficult, but I think an important topic to touch on, which is about qualification and gatekeeping. And there's an argument to be made on all of these sides, but it's something that I hear about often, which is, wait, watch time. You have to pay to get into watch time. Isn't this a marketing event? Why would I have to pay to get in? And then on the other side of this, you have a very strong philosophical perspective that, that the folks at Warner Wound have about, we will never charge for Windup. They've been saying this from day one, always free to the public. I think it's even part of the strap line.

C (28:02)

Yeah, it is. But I'm also hearing the opposite from some enthusiasts who are now saying, I can't believe Windup is so crowded. I can barely even get in there. I remember when I used to be able to waltz in. It's too crowd, it's too loud. I can't see the thing. So it cuts. It does cut. Free and open to the public sometimes faces scrutiny.

B (28:23)

So I want to look at this from two. Two perspectives. The first being the. The consumer experience, which is what you're touching on, and the second being the rationale for gatekeeping from a brand standpoint. And I want to. I want to, before we even go here, to say, I don't know that I have an answer to this or that we all do, but I think it's important to explore why these things are set up the way that they are so that there can be some clarity around it. Because it's not. You know, I think a lot of the time there's this sensation like, oh, it's a cash grab. You know, it's like, that's. That's sort of the meme that I've heard sometimes. It's like, well, in order for me to get into this, I need to be on that guest list, or I need to be where I have to buy a ticket or something to that effect. So if we think about these things, bearing in mind everything that Nick just described, which applies to every. Everyone exhibiting here on a sliding scale of investment, ultimately, why are we here? We're here because we're trying to show brands that we're trying to show product that we believe in, where the brand that we built, in Nick's case, that he's built, in Nick's case, to get people to buy watches. On a very fundamental level, that's why we're here. To put a really great watch in somebody's hand that maybe they hadn't considered before, and the fact that it's in their hand, hopefully eventually, at some point in the future, leads to them deciding to invest in that watch. So the question then becomes, how likely is it that the person coming in that door will be able to make that decision? And the question there revolves around a few things. Okay, if somebody is not willing to, say, pay $30 to walk in the room, how likely are they to maybe pay $30,000 for the watch on display in that room? Now, that is a rhetorical question. I'm not saying that I think that that's right or wrong, but it is a Method of doing what folks in the industry might say as qualifying a client, which is to determine whether or not the people that are in that space are the right target audience for the product on display. For example, I am not the right target audience for a $150,000 car. I'm, you know, even if I, even if I had that in my car budget, it's not what I'm going to spend that money on personally. So I am not a qualified customer to be looking at vintage Porsche, for example.

A (30:42)

I've got an interesting point on this because I've always, I've always had a few thoughts with events. Firstly, that I would rather have 10 high quality engaged people in a room than 100.

C (30:52)

Right.

A (30:52)

You know, but over the years, I've actually got a slight now kind of star next to that, an asterisk, which we'll, we'll come back to. The other one is in terms of the ticket price, because I've historically been very strongly of the opinion there shouldn't be a price because if someone's potentially coming to buy from you, it's like charge black there. Right. You know, basically don't, you know, you wouldn't charge someone to come into your boutique. Right. You know, it should be. Remove the roadblocks. Now, to go back to the first point, Yes, I want 10 engaged people in the room. However, I, I also think there is a big thing about discovery. So, you know, I want those 10 engaged people who are here to see Fears and really, you know, going to take the time and, you know, but there's also then going, but there might be that 11th person. You never heard of the brand, never seen the product, and you want them to be able to discover it for the first time and walking around the room. But to the second point, in terms of the pricing, I think it's also about price points. So, you know, if we're being very honest, when you look around the room here at Watch Time, Fierce is one of the least expensive brands here. And I'm very happy with that because, you know, it's incredible to be in a room where, you know, across from us is Parmigiani. You know, you look next to us, we've got Leroy, we've got MB and F, you know, and these are just in our little area of the show, which is incredible. Now, the thing is, for Fears, does having a ticket price on the door make a difference? I would say it could be a barrier because if you're coming to spend $3,000 spending $30 on the ticket Suddenly is a. A higher percentage of what you might spend on the watch than versus going across to Grubel Forsey and spending 300,000. Well, then 30 is nothing. So we benefit.

B (32:40)

A group will give you a $30 credit towards any watching.

A (32:42)

There we go. That's great. You know, but, you know, so we benefit by the fact that the bigger, much more expensive brands very much require that qualification. But I don't know if the room was filled with just brands of Fierce's price point, whether that would still work quite as well.

B (33:00)

It's a spectrum, as you point out. And to be clear, I'm not advocating one way or the other because I don't. I don't. Honest, I don't know how I feel about it.

A (33:08)

Yeah.

B (33:10)

But I do think it's important to understand like the logic of it. So you're right. Is it a barrier for some? Absolutely. Does it also probably help folks self select in some cases? Probably. And then when you look at the other, certainly does.

C (33:22)

But is the person who either can't afford or doesn't want to spend $30 on a ticket, should they not be able to see a Grubel Forsey?

B (33:32)

Absolutely not. They should be able to.

C (33:33)

I don't know the answer.

B (33:34)

But the flip side of that. The flip side of that is if there's no barrier to entry and I'm saying like something like don't even have to register. Like all you have to do is. Is enter the space physically. Well, then the question becomes for the watch brand and going back to opportunity cost if somebody walks in off the street. So this is me that sees me in my automotive example. Right. I walk into an auto show or like a vintage car show where there's. Where the cars are on sale. Like suspect these things exist. Whoever lives into cars probably thinks I'm a total. You.

C (34:06)

You wander into the. The Concord delegates in Monterey, California or.

B (34:11)

That whatever that is. So I walk into that and I'm just like blown away by the beauty of the things that I'm seeing because I do think cars are beautiful. And I look at it and I just start chatting up the guy for 20 or 30 minutes about how beautiful this vehicle is.

C (34:26)

Meanwhile, you're wasting his time.

B (34:28)

Exactly. Meanwhile, a guy behind me has been like, you know, shifting his weight around because he actually is interested in the car. And I'm just sitting there talking.

C (34:37)

There's a benefit to the customer. So yes. I mean, these are two extremely good. Pour one out for the guy trying to sell his car and you know, Asher's chatting his his ear off about something irrelevant for sure. And I can see why there's a benefit to the brands to having, you know, some exclusivity or whatever, but there's a benefit to the customer as well. You know, we talked about, we used to walk in off the street right into Windup and dive right into the watches. Well, today, if you want to go to Windup, you've got to wait in line for an hour and you've got to bu, you know, elbows with everyone and their mother to see the watch you're interested in. Or maybe you can't because the table is so mobbed, whether it's the Christopher Ward table or Studio Underdog or whatever it might be. And so I think there is a benefit to the idea of registering or having tickets and paying and things like that as far as being able to provide an experience to a client that gives who's goes with intention and really, you know, travels and really wants to see something versus the guy who's in line in front of him who decided to go, you know, not go to the Museum of Ice Cream today.

B (35:41)

So the go within the watch. You just said a few minutes ago, should someone who doesn't want to spend $30 be able to go hands on with a $300,000 grubel? I would argue it's about the intention. Right. So the very first time I went into a Patek boutique, I made $35,000 a year. By the, by the measure that we were describing, I was not a qualified customer. I was, I, you know, I was quote, unquote, maybe wasting their time.

C (36:08)

But you weren't competing with 30 other people standing behind you chopping. I'm going to get to the watch.

B (36:13)

That's correct. But my point being, I ultimately did buy a Patek Philippe many, many, many, many, many years later. And part of what fed, part of what was in that decision to do it was the positive experience that I'd had at the, in the Tiffany boutique in New York in the early 2000s when that wasn't, you know, what it, what it eventually turned into. That boutique had amazing customer service and they decided to invest time in me to plant a seed. But Gabe, to your point, that was an average day, you know, on like a Wednesday, you know, at like 1pm on my lunch break. That when not a highly trafficked time, you know, at that old, at that old salon, not an event.

A (36:57)

And I, yeah, I mean, that's the big thing. Right. You know, as a company that's not.

B (37:01)

Of course, a Business.

A (37:02)

I mean, you know, we, we've got our boutique in Bristol. We then have events which we attend. There's a big difference because the, at a boutique, the boutique is there potentially open seven days a week. It's always there. An event is there for two free days. It really condenses that. And so yeah, I think to your point on like you want to know that the people coming in, you know, there's only so many people we can speak to on a stand and you want to know that all those conversations are as meaningful as possible.

B (37:31)

This is. There are so many different layers of commerce that are happening during an event like this. B2B, B2C. Partnerships between individual organizations that it's, it can often get lost, I think when we look at it because in the end a lot of people who come here, come here because it's really fun and I think it's just a. Fascinating decisions about how and why to.

C (37:56)

Organize it all have endless trade offs. Right, your last question. Last question. One of the things I learned from you, Nicholas, years ago about these events is the brands are always talking among themselves. Oh yes. Oh yes. So my question for you this year is what are all the brands talking about when it comes to, let's call it New York Watch Week? What is the hot topic among the brands? Give us the inside scoop.

A (38:25)

So I think there's, well, certainly with the UK brands, there's a very, an acknowledgement that Thiers and Braemore have swapped places. I've had quite a few comments about that. So Braemore for I think about nine years was at watch time. This year they've moved to Windup. Fierce has been at Wind up for three years and is now at watch time. And I think it's, it's. People have noticed that and kind of noticed that Fears is someone put it, they said, oh, you've upgraded to the, the premiere show. And I was like, well, I don't think of it quite like that. But it's just, it's, it's interesting for that. I think there aren't as many British brands who have come out as previous years. I think some of that is the economics, it's the expense of it. But for a lot of brands, I know that they see Wind Up New York as their big event of the year. That's where they make the big money. But everyone is sort of saying there's too much, there's too much going on over the course of a few days. And when you add on the, you know, the other events taking place around the city. When you also add on, I mean, Thursday evening this week, Thursday evening this week, fears with Studio Underdog hosted a cocktail party. We had 170 people come. Turns out there were eight other watch events on the Thursday evening alone. You know, and you suddenly realize, I mean, we're incredibly grateful that people chose to come to us, but we know people were also party hopping, which is exactly what I would be doing. You know, go and see who's got the best champagne. But the, but the fact is you suddenly realize, goodness, this whole week has been competing for attention. I realized also the FHH from Switzerland, they've been doing events as well. They've been hosting talks and lectures in New York as well. So, you know, there is so much going on and that's brilliant. But say you're a watch enthusiast and you, you might be able to take Friday off work, but, you know, you've got a limited number of days holiday, you've got a partner, maybe a kid, you know, so you've got to fight.

B (40:34)

You have that four hours, basically. Yeah.

A (40:36)

What are you gonna see and do? And I've been this, this show I've been across both with our fierce Studio omdog Manhattan collaboration. We, you know, I needed to be over in the show for a few hours to meet with people and it was just so interesting chatting to people at both shows, kind of being like, have you been to the other one? And everyone's saying, I'm going to try and make it. And what that basically means is like, I could, I may not even finish this show before basically my watch time is, is up. Look, I think it's, I, I like the competition. I like the fact that it means we've got to, you know, make sure we've got something exciting that really draws people in. But for a lot of, a lot of brands who are spending the same amount of money fizzes, you know, it's, it's going to be tough. You know, not everyone is going to succeed from that. But from a collector's perspective, I mean, compared to only a few years ago, there is so much going on. And I mean, I was thinking this morning, once we finish recording the podcast, there's about half an hour before the show opens. I'm gonna go around and start having a look at some watches. I've got a list on my phone of watches I want to look at. And you realize, like, yeah, if you are into watches, this really has become, I would say, yeah, bigger than Geneva, but more important than Geneva.

C (41:55)

Yeah. I mean, what started as a way to spend an afternoon in New York has quickly become a way to spend a day, a weekend, a week, maybe even a month. We need New York Watch Month, Nicholas, that is, that is the solution problem. Get on the first plane back to Britain, tell all the brands it's New York Watch Month. Nicholas, thank you so much for joining. We appreciate you. As Asher said, this was absolutely long overdue and it won't be the last time. Thank you.

A (42:25)

Thank you so much for having me.

C (42:26)

It's been wonderful, of course, and thank you for listening. Openwork is, of course, a production of Collective Horology. You can find us online@collective horology.com and you can find our guest, Nicholas Bowman scargill online@fearswatches.com and of course, please get in touch with your questions, your feedback, your suggestions. And to do that, just email podcastollective Horology.