Asher Afkin (2:43)

Yeah, well, I think it's important to separate feelings from some reality on this front. You can't expect that every year is going to be a banger of a year. Certainly if we look at like, you know, the, the massive brands that are there, when we look at like, you know, a Rolex, a Patek, et cetera, you know, Rolex a couple years ago had a lot, a lot of saved up ammunition from the COVID years. And I think it was two or three years ago, you know, released new collections. You know, last year was the Land Dweller. A year before that. Was it 1908.

Gabe Riley (3:16)

Yeah.

Asher Afkin (3:16)

So it's, it's understandable that if you've seen two new collections from the behemoth of the watch industry and then you

Gabe Riley (3:22)

start seeing maybe they need to chill.

Asher Afkin (3:24)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (3:24)

And I mean, they did introduce a new collection or a revamped collection with the Yacht Master too.

Asher Afkin (3:29)

Yeah. And they also did some things they've never done before, like a precious metal op, et cetera. I don't want to dwell on Rolex, but point being, I think that's, that's a good, that's a good example. You know, and then when we look. But for us, you know, our meetings there, which we didn't have that many this year, like we were only at the show, like the actual. For a few hours, just a few hours. Every other meeting that we have is in downtown Geneva, which is fine, because the truth of the matter is schlepping out to the Pel Expo. For those who don't know, like, the Pel Expo is this gigantic convention center where the show, where the Watches and Wonders show is. It's also adjacent to the Villa Saracen. Sarasond. Is that it? Villa Sara San. Sara San.

Gabe Riley (4:10)

I have no idea.

Asher Afkin (4:11)

It's also adjacent to the space where Time to Watches. Where Time to Watches is.

Gabe Riley (4:16)

We learned that Time to. We do actually have to go back out there tomorrow for Time to Watches, but we learned that the proper pronunciation of Time to Watches is to Watches.

Asher Afkin (4:26)

Exactly. But anyway, the point I was making is, you know, it's, it's a, it's a massive space and it's, it's quite far away from downtown Geneva. Not literally, but in just, you know.

Gabe Riley (4:35)

Well, it's next to the airport. So imagine the airport isn't exactly in the center of, of downtown Geneva.

Asher Afkin (4:40)

So it's a schlep. So, you know, I don't mind, not Having to go back day after day. But I will tell you, having been there now for several years, attendance this year did feel a little lighter than we are used to seeing.

Gabe Riley (4:52)

Usually it's packed shoulder to shoulder in there. We. And we were there. Granted, we weren't there on Tuesday, which was sort of the first day of the show. We usually.

Asher Afkin (5:00)

Which is usually the busiest day from a business standpoint.

Gabe Riley (5:02)

Yeah, we usually go on. Wednesday is our first day there, but the crowd was pretty thin yesterday. And we did talk to a number of people who were there on Tuesday, Tuesday morning even, who told us they felt for Tuesday the crowd was relatively thin.

Asher Afkin (5:17)

Yeah. So, you know, there's that. Now again, that's anecdotal. I don't know how true that is.

Gabe Riley (5:20)

There could be more people there this year than last. We don't know.

Asher Afkin (5:23)

Two hours after we left, I mean, who knows exactly. But we did have a little bit of time to walk the floor and there were a few things that I noticed walking around there. 1. And I want to start just on a positive note for the show itself. This is. It is a monumentally expensive and incredible endeavor and a construction that the team builds. And I do have to tip my hat to them because they clearly have done a lot of work to continually make it a comfortable show for people to work at. Because the thing is, as beautiful as the space is, it is exhausting. And I can see that they're doing that. So, so respect to. To the, the. The show runners who build that every year. So we mentioned this in the past, but they changed the way one enters the venue a couple years ago. Now you enter primarily through this hall, which is dominated by a sort of secondary quasi independent area. Yeah, it's.

Gabe Riley (6:14)

It's an upstairs area from the main floor. It's almost the loft, if you will.

Asher Afkin (6:19)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (6:19)

For the show floor.

Asher Afkin (6:20)

And there's. There's a separate sort of restaurant of sorts for. For, you know, for executives. There.

Gabe Riley (6:25)

Auditorium is there now.

Asher Afkin (6:27)

Yeah. There's also a second area where a lot of other independents are. So like Nomos is up there, for example, Cross Studio, etc. But across from. From that area are two brands that I think are worth talking about for a moment. One is Bremont, you know, and. And I think anyone who's listened to this podcast knows our. Our thoughts on. On the state of that current business. I whole. We've done several episodes on Bremont. Suffice to say, some of their novelties this year. Certainly the one that they're hyping is

Gabe Riley (6:58)

it's continue to be lost in the wilderness. Now I will say our friend Zach Kazan, who we trust and who is a very honest and straightforward person, he does not hold punches, was actually quite effusive of that Bremont chronograph having gone hands on with it, which we did.

Asher Afkin (7:15)

We did not. And in fairness, even some of the watches that we loved the most looked better in person. Like one watch we saw did day.

Gabe Riley (7:23)

Sure.

Asher Afkin (7:23)

You know, like one watch we really admire the singer Caballero in titanium killer watch even better in person. So, you know, if we, if we apply, we can't apply the logic to one.

Gabe Riley (7:31)

Maybe that Bremont really is, is great. So Brett Bremont is, is up there.

Asher Afkin (7:36)

I don't know if I'm gonna go that far, but it might just be

Gabe Riley (7:38)

better than it looks, might be better person or. But the other thing about it we don't understand.

Asher Afkin (7:42)

The other thing that I saw that, you know, sometimes companies, you know, you can't stop a company from just being themselves. And I don't know if it's a lack of self awareness or a true commitment to self awareness that resulted in this, but we were very curious to see what Audemars Piguet would do at this show.

Gabe Riley (8:04)

They're up there on that same floor with, with, with Bremont.

Asher Afkin (8:07)

Everybody has to walk by them and wow, it was, it was really quite a, quite a thing to witness. So in a, in a truly remarkable demons of I guess what everybody expected. While their press release said we're here to, you know, be part of the watch community, to share our incredible heritage,

Gabe Riley (8:32)

open our doors quite literally to the industry in the community.

Asher Afkin (8:35)

It was one of the only two booths in the entirety of Watches and Wonders with a gate, and not only a gate, but a gigantic structure that blocked the entire interior of the booth, making it absolutely impossible. It was also. I don't know if you noticed this.

Gabe Riley (8:51)

Back up one second.

Asher Afkin (8:52)

Well, hang on, I want to finish

Gabe Riley (8:54)

before you get to ap, I just want to set the stage here. You have to enter through plenty of lines and security and metal detectors and badge searches and credential checks and things like that. So anyone who's entered the space and walked up to the AP booth has already been through several cues, safety checks and credential checks.

Asher Afkin (9:13)

Yeah, there's, there's literally armed guards hidden to protect the probably billions of dollars of assets in that space.

Gabe Riley (9:19)

And therefore, when you get to most other booths, Bremont would be example the first booth you pick.

Asher Afkin (9:24)

Now that doesn't Mean that you can hang out in there or you could be there without a meeting, but there's nothing preventing you from entering the space. And notably every single booth but for AP had watches behind glass on display. So if you're just walking the floor even, you know, we don't have a meeting with Lange this year. Curious to see the 36 millimeter, you know, Saxonia annual calendars. No problem. Just take a look in the window. You see them all good. Rolex, every single reference released on display in the window. Chopar, jlc, Chapek, whatever, all on display. Guess who had no watches on display?

Gabe Riley (9:59)

Oh, I have no idea. I'm sure they all did.

Asher Afkin (10:01)

Yeah. Ap. And what else did AP have, Gabe?

Gabe Riley (10:05)

Well, AP had a few things when you walk up to the booth. One was their own queuing system, which no other brand has. Pretty much any other booth you walk up to. You can sort of walk in now to like a foyer or lobby reception, greeted by somebody. Ap, you have to get in a line like a queuing system, almost like going to a nightclub or like a Cartier.

Asher Afkin (10:24)

There was literally a line for like those who have been invited and those who have not.

Gabe Riley (10:27)

Yeah. And then you have to have your own credentials or badge that they scan to let you separate AP credential and a separate AP credential. And by the way, the entire booth is completely walled off. You have, you can't. You can see the exterior which was done and decorated like some house. I'm assuming it's in their manufacturer or something that was, was the decoration on the outside. But you can't, there's nothing to see into. It's. It's literally gate kept. And every other brand at least has some, if not Van Cleef, Arpels, Van Cleef and Arpels, where you can walk in and tour sort of a museum and a gallery space within their booth.

Asher Afkin (11:03)

Ulysses Nardin, which had a full.

Gabe Riley (11:05)

Most other brands, with a couple of exceptions. I think Patek is the other exception. You can just sort of walk in and stroll around. Patek is literally a glass box. Yeah, you can see into it. AP is literally and figuratively completely walled off.

Asher Afkin (11:20)

So, you know, very fitting, extremely fitting. And I have to admit, I found it really, really obnoxious. I just did because like this is an event for the industry primarily to come together for authorized dealers to literally spend millions of dollars for colleagues to look at the work of other people.

Gabe Riley (11:45)

Yeah, that's true. In that way. It's a smack in the face to their colleagues in the industry, it was,

Asher Afkin (11:50)

I have to say, it was really obnoxious. And I, you know, I don't know if that was their intention. I doubt it. You know, I'm sure that, that there was something about it, but I, I,

Gabe Riley (12:02)

it's like, why even bother if you're going to be there but not be there?

Asher Afkin (12:05)

I just, I found it, it, I found, I found it to be extremely off putting.

Gabe Riley (12:09)

Yeah.

Asher Afkin (12:09)

And I, you know, it's not that I expected to be able to walk, but, you know, for context, by the way, the last time AP was there was in 2019, which is my SIHH. Yeah. Which is my first year attending, attending school.

Gabe Riley (12:20)

So what was that set up like?

Asher Afkin (12:22)

Very different. So AP was in the center of the, the hall was smaller in 2019. They expanded it when they added that loft space you mentioned. And AP was in the center and the booth was open. You could walk in. It was the year that they announced the code 1159. And you know, you, you could walk in, you could, you could look at the pieces. They were on display. They were very communicative about the whole logic of the 1159 and the rest of it. And if you remember, there was a big kerfuffle when that watch came out, you know.

Gabe Riley (12:50)

Oh, that was S H, H. Right. Because that came out at the beginning of the year January.

Asher Afkin (12:54)

But there was no, there was no gatekeeping there. You know, it was just like any other collegial booth. You could go in, you could look around, you could talk to people. There were educated watchmakers there who would talk to you about the complex case geometry, for example, of the code 1159 here. They might as well have been selling scarves or tabletop or who the heck knows what was going on behind those doors. And not that it's their responsibility, per se, to make their business everybody else's, but the fact that they were the only, the only brand that could not be bothered to put their watches out for their colleagues. The fact that they were the only brand that felt that they needed a queuing system, the fact that they were the only brand that blocked off every component of what they were doing.

Gabe Riley (13:45)

Yeah. And I guess I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but you could argue, oh, well, you know, makes sense. There's a lot of demand. They don't really have much to offer. But all the more reason to if your booth is in a functioning business space where retailers are coming in and taking meetings and all this kind of stuff, which most booths are. That's why they're there.

Asher Afkin (14:04)

Yeah. Great cost.

Gabe Riley (14:05)

You'd argue. Okay, well, if you're going to be there and you don't really have anything to sell, at least have stuff to show. Yeah.

Asher Afkin (14:11)

So anyway, so message received.

Gabe Riley (14:14)

Yeah.

Asher Afkin (14:15)

You know, we as an industry are not welcome. Yeah, understood.

Gabe Riley (14:19)

So I thought, I did think walking around, there were a few other things that really struck me. One is, although the foot traffic, at least to us felt a bit lighter, I did notice a lot of brands had reinvested in their. In their booth. So most of the Richemont brands, for instance. So when you go down the stairs to the main hall from where Bremont AP and Frederic Constand now has their own booth up there as well. When you go down into the main hall, I did notice. Well, first, one thing stood out right away. Before we get to Richemont, they're in that Richemont section was Moser is the. You come down the stairs. Moser is now the first brand you see when you come downstairs. And they're of course in the old Mont Blanc booth. We've talked a bit about why Moser is there. What's interesting to me about Montblanc not being there in that, in that big booth right across from, from Vacheron, who

Asher Afkin (15:09)

also, my God, beautiful. They upgrade their space.

Gabe Riley (15:11)

Gorgeous. Yeah, serious. You know, Montblanc announced recently that they're taking the Montblanc brand off of Minerva watches. And, and now there's a lot to talk about there. But from Montblanc backing off of Minerva, which for years they said, you know, we will of course keep the Montblanc brand on all Minerva watches. You know, Montblanc played this important role which they deserve credit for in sort of saving the Minerva brand from, from, you know, what would have otherwise been certain, certain death. They've taken their name off of Minerva watches. They're no longer at Watches and Wonders. One has to wonder if Montblanc is slowly walking away from watchmaking. I don't know. Certainly in their. They're walking away from their approach to the industry. But this was the latest thing that made me wonder. We'll see where that goes. But yeah, that, that Richemont space. Most of those brands had converted a significantly changed and upgraded their booths. IW an awesome sort of space exploration themed booth. The Vacheron booth was beautiful.

Asher Afkin (16:16)

IWC had also kudos to IWC this year. I do think there were a lot of model refreshes, but there were some really critical things there that they did that were crowd pleasers like being able to roll Their perpetual calendar back. That's a huge update. And that beautiful watch that they made, the Space watch, was really, I thought the Venturer. The Venturer.

Gabe Riley (16:35)

Thank you.

Asher Afkin (16:35)

Really, really cool and really interesting. So again.

Gabe Riley (16:38)

And they always do a good job. Like, I think a lot of these booths are seas of sameness.

Asher Afkin (16:43)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (16:43)

You know, there's not that. I know you like Vacheron, but there's like, not that much different between, like, the Vacheron booth and the Cartier booth and the Jaeger booth and the Bulgaria.

Asher Afkin (16:54)

I do think they all know. I actually disagree.

Gabe Riley (16:56)

I think this year, variations on a theme. Iwc, however, always has a very different approach.

Asher Afkin (17:03)

You know what? Actually, I see what you're saying in the sense that the Bulgari booth, which was, by the way, another stunning stunner, looked like the modern interpretation of the Bulgari boutiques, as did the Vacheron boutique, as does the Cartier.

Gabe Riley (17:14)

It feels very old and they feel like old luxury. And then you have iwc, who's very confident in being themselves and doing something that is very arresting and very different.

Asher Afkin (17:24)

Yeah, that's true.

Gabe Riley (17:25)

From. From all the other brands. So kudos. Kudos to them. But it was clear that, you know, the brands obviously spend millions and millions and millions of dollars each to be there. The big brands do. And to. And to execute that they, you know, even in. In a market that is going through a lot of challenges, are continuing to invest. It would have been easy, given everything we know about what's happening in the industry, how brutal 2020, 2025 was. Would have been easy for the brands to stretch their booths, which are all perfectly nice, for sure, one more year. And instead what we saw was a commitment. And essentially this is a recommitment from these brands to the show because they'll essentially keep that same booth in. In place for at least two years. Like IWC tends to use the about two years in a row. Most of the other brands will stick with that theme for two, three years or longer, and then they'll refresh them. So what this tells us is that all of these brands are recommitting to the show and upping their investment in the show, despite what's going on in the industry overall, which is great to see.

Asher Afkin (18:26)

Yeah, I want to talk about Moser for a second because, you know, we asked a question of ourselves about six weeks ago, you know, when we talked about Moser making a very significant deal out of moving from the Carre to the space that they're in now. And, you know, look the watch that they really built the show around was this, this collaboration with Reebok, the, the Pump. And you know, while the.

Gabe Riley (18:48)

Well, I like it on the basis of pure nostalgia.

Asher Afkin (18:50)

Yeah, that's the thing. What I was gonna say is like the, like, the watch to me is like, it's fine. Like, I don't, I'm not like, I'm, I'm not personally, like all that psyched about it, but I have to, I have to tip my cap to them because there is still a very sort of like, you know, roguish element to being directly across from Alanga and Zone, you know, who of course are, you know, kings of high watchmaking. And then you're like, hey, check out my sneaker collab. And, and to a degree, like, it does, it does make me feel like while Moser, you know, is evolving its business, scaling its operations, you know, aiming to be a much larger corporation than they are today, it does appear that they, that they do want to do that with their personality intact.

Gabe Riley (19:37)

So they're maintaining their sense of humor, which is good to see, totally.

Asher Afkin (19:40)

Because they could absolutely have decided to put like a cylindrical tourbillon or you know, one of their other more, more like high complication pieces as a centerpiece there. You know, Besit Vacheron and Opposite Lange. And they didn't, they didn't. They. They put something that was a personality piece up. So, you know, respect to Edouard and the team over there for, for holding that down that I saw, I really, I really respect that. So kudos to them.

Gabe Riley (20:05)

Hey, it's Gabe. Openwork is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription. If you'd like to support the show, please take a moment to subscribe. Subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking. You can find our channel@collective horology.com YouTube and of course, you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands along with our latest merch@collective horology.com thanks for listening and for your support. Now back to the show.

Asher Afkin (20:42)

Then you get to the Carre. And one thing that's interesting about the Carre, which is where all the independents are, there are two things that really stood out to me there. One, it's significantly larger than. Than it's. It has historically been. Last year, I believe, was the first year it moved to behind the Rolex booth. It got Bigger then. But if you recall, it was sort of subdivided, and this year they didn't divide it. It's just one big space. Yeah. And it really, I think, was also sort of an indication of the growth of independence in general. Obviously, you know, we'll talk more about this, but like, most of the independents, not all, but the majority are spread around downtown now by volume. But like within the show, those that were attending, it did feel like a much larger space and a bigger presence, including something that both you and I were surprised to see and didn't realize was there, which was Creedor.

Gabe Riley (21:30)

Credor has their own booth. Yeah.

Asher Afkin (21:33)

And, you know, we. We were. I mean, look, we're. We're huge Credor fans. We're, you know, both Gabe and I really love the Ichi 2. Some of their. Their new releases this year are absolutely gorgeous. And obviously the watchmaking is. Is at the highest level from Japan. And we started asking around if. Does anybody know, you know, not to put too fine a point at it, but why they're here? Because that's a really interesting question. You know, are they looking to be placed in independent boutiques or why is

Gabe Riley (21:59)

this not within the Grand Seiko?

Asher Afkin (22:01)

Exactly. So, you know, we're getting some interesting answers about that. I don't know that we have, like, something I would consider definitive, but what I think is pretty clear from that investment is that they do want to grow Credor. Whether that's within existing GS retailers, whether that's as a separate brand and domestically, that's not entirely clear. But what is absolutely clear is that Seiko as a corporation is looking to grow the presence and the gravitas of their app of that hot horology brand within their. Within their catalog.

Gabe Riley (22:30)

And I think when, if you're Seiko and you look at, say, what Citizen is doing, which is, you know, they've got hot horology brands as well in Arnold and Son and Angeles. Yeah, I can see how. And they compete among the independents, essentially.

Asher Afkin (22:45)

Yeah, they're even. They're even really, I think, doing some pretty significant marketing work on the high end of Citizen itself.

Gabe Riley (22:50)

Yeah, I can imagine. I can see why Seiko Corporation may look at that and say, okay, you know, we've. Seiko is obviously a bulwark of the industry. You've got Grand Seiko now, we talked about on our last podcast, you know, they've established that as a really premium and prestigious, prestigious brand. Hey, maybe we can go after an entirely new segment of the market in a more significant and focused way. By treating Creedor as its own. As its own brand. And I guess from their perspective, competing against the high end of. Of the indies. Now again, we. We don't know. We were. I was shocked when I saw cre Door. Then I would assume they were on the map beforehand, but it was just. It. They're right on the corner on the end. And so it's one of the first things you see. And it's. It. It was stunning to me, but I was also. It put a smile on my face. I love seeing those watches presented in a. In a really focused way.

Asher Afkin (23:44)

So, you know, if we zoom. If we zoom out, the show continues as it always has. You know, we have some newcomers, some with open doors, some with not, and interestingly, a lot of the heartbeat of what. And I realize we're biased because we only sell independent watches, but for us, we really feel like the heartbeat of. Of this week in Geneva. As the Geneva watch week in August and September is. Was downtown. And there's a lot going on across Geneva. There's multiple shows. We have, of course, the return of the ahci, one of our favorite events, which is only about a couple hundred feet from where we're sitting right now. The beau rivage is from top to bottom, five floors of independent watches block with watch brands. Absolutely. There's a new show, Chronopolis. We have, of course, time to watches

Gabe Riley (24:33)

and then time to watches.

Asher Afkin (24:35)

Exactly. And then we have. And then we have, you know, folks who are camped out at their own buildings. You know, the Madhouse for MB and F. The awesome Urwerk atelier for Urwerk.

Gabe Riley (24:46)

We have brands that also took a totally different approach. We had a wonderful meeting this morning with the folks at Berneron.

Asher Afkin (24:52)

Oh yeah.

Gabe Riley (24:52)

And they rented out in the old town an art gallery which was. It's not their own space, but it's. It couldn't have been better. It was the perfect environment.

Asher Afkin (25:02)

Yeah, the vibe. The vibe at that space was super awesome. And it was. I mean, you know, we had Sylvain on the pod a few months ago. He left a really strong impression on us, his watches. You know, I'd had the pleasure of seeing a first edition, a series Mirage off the wrist of our. Of our dear friend Alain Ben Joseph about a year or two ago. Year ago, give or take. Awesome watch. We got to go hands on with the Quantium, which. In a working prototype, which was fabulous. And Sylvain was kind enough to take us through the inner working.

Gabe Riley (25:33)

Save it for the watch debrief podcast.

Asher Afkin (25:35)

I will, but. Okay, fair but if we take a step back, you know, a lot of these meetings are stressful and exhausting. You know, lots of people around, rooms are hot, lots of background noise.

Gabe Riley (25:47)

You're meeting with someone and the next meeting enters the room and is standing there waiting for you to finish.

Asher Afkin (25:52)

Yeah, exactly. You know, people are constantly like, you know, trying to say hi, you know, it's all sorts of stuff. So that was a calming and peaceful space.

Gabe Riley (26:00)

It was the antidote. Yeah, no, it was very clever. It was a great environment in which to show watches. To do it in an art gallery, especially for Berneron, made all sorts of sense. But to have a place that was more self selecting, wasn't overrun with people where you could take your time, that wasn't crowded, that had proper air conditioning, all that sort of stuff, it was I think the best meeting from the perspective of the environment. Just felt it felt good.

Asher Afkin (26:30)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (26:30)

So hat tip, hat tip to them. I'd like to see more brands do things like that. Not necessarily all crowd together in a hotel suite or at a trade show, but to find some space around Geneva and it was convenient and walking distance to so many other things. Find a nice space.

Asher Afkin (26:45)

Well, you know, it's interesting to be

Gabe Riley (26:46)

able to have a more relaxed discussion about watches.

Asher Afkin (26:49)

As I think about it when listening to you say it, I think part of it is also like are tied to the expectation of who is coming to these meetings. You know, Burnaron does not have ads. We went just because we admire the brand and you know, we wanted to go hands on with the full line, not for any purpose beyond that and that and the really. And the reason Sylvain and his team are camped out there is primarily for direct to consumer consultation and sale which is a different vibe than B2B sales, you know and I think that probably contributes to it to a certain degree. Like people trade shows are a. Whatever industry you're in, a trade show feels like a trade show and I think people are just used to doing business that way and it's interesting to me to find folks that are willing to go against the grain on it. I hope that, you know, should Bernaron ever decide that the brand is going to work with third party partners, that they keep that vibe. Yeah, you know, it was a, it was great energy.

Gabe Riley (27:49)

Absolutely. So we've got brands everywhere and what was surprising to me is I think the Beau Rivage is a good example of this. It was, it's been the very opposite of, of what we saw at the Plexpo in the sense Of I think you're, you're seeing at a place like the Beau Rivage some of the most exciting watches that are on offer. Yeah. At. At Geneva Watch week or the week of watches and wonders in, In Geneva.

Asher Afkin (28:16)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (28:17)

And. And it is chock a block, not just with brands, but it's your second chock a block, but not just with brands. It's not only filled floor, you know, first floor to the. Literally to the roof with watch bands, but filled with people. I mean, there is hustle and bustle in there. It feels like it's where the action is. Now, it may help that, that the halls of the hotel are much more sort of claustrophobic than the wide open halls of the Plexpo. But there, there's an energy and a vitality in like, like the Beau Rivage. I'm really curious. Tomorrow we'll not only go to time to watches, but we'll go to Chronopolis as well, which is taking, you know, again, it's a fair in the sense that they've organized a bunch of brands together, but they're taking their own approach to it. We. I listen to them, I'm not sure if you did, on Hodinkee Radio on Business of Watches with Andy Hoffman. And they talked about. Their approach is much more casual. They have a bar there. It's a. It's a space to hang out. So it seems much more like a watch meetup than a watch fair. And I think all of this to say is what I'm starting to see in Geneva is a shift. In the first few years we were doing this, truly the center of gravity was the Plexpo.

Asher Afkin (29:32)

Yep.

Gabe Riley (29:33)

It now feels to me like the center of gravity is downtown Geneva.

Asher Afkin (29:38)

So I would agree. But I also recognize that we don't retail mainstream brands. And I think if you and I sure sold Rolex or Patek or Chopar or something like that or any number

Gabe Riley (29:52)

of brands, we'd be at the Plexo all week and we'd never think to come downtown. However, what I would say is this. Maybe it hasn't shifted, but it's shifting. A few years ago, really the only sort of counter programming to watches and wonders. When we first started doing the Beau

Asher Afkin (30:09)

Rivage and the hci.

Gabe Riley (30:11)

Yeah, but talk about like.

Asher Afkin (30:13)

But that was fringy.

Gabe Riley (30:14)

Yeah. And fringy. Now you have the Beau Rivage even more. You know, it was the first few years, it was like the first couple floors of the hotel had brains. We had, we had friends years ago One of our friends was staying in a hotel room in the Beaux Rivage during Watches.

Asher Afkin (30:30)

Right?

Gabe Riley (30:31)

Yeah. That's not possible anymore. The entire hotel is rented out by watch brands.

Asher Afkin (30:36)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (30:36)

There are no suites or rooms available for people. So now the Beau Rivage has filled up completely, you know, and then you have time to watches. You have Chronopolis, you have brands who are opening their doors around town. You have other hotels that are hosting brands. We did meetings at the Ritz. I mean, we've been all over town here in a way that just wasn't possible even a few years ago. So you're right in, you know, the law of large numbers here favors watches and Wonders in the Plexpo. That's where the big brands who are doing most of the business, most of the volume, most of the revenue in the industry are still there. And you're right, you could be a hardcore watch industry insider, whether you're a journalist or a retailer, and just spend all week at the Plexpo and that's great. However, there are now more and more and more options and more and more brands outside of the, of the Plexpo in a way that just didn't exist a few years ago and has continued, continuing to gather steam.

Asher Afkin (31:41)

Yeah. It's also going to be fascinating. So I agree with that. I think the measure for me will be a couple things. One is the magnetic pull of these other shows strong enough to attract mainstream retailers. Slash for the right reasons. Right. I mean, we know that margins are getting tighter in mainstream retail. They may look for practical reasons at independence. They may also look at them for the same reasons that we do, you know, which is the wellspring of creativity that drives independence. So I'm curious to see that the other indicator will be how much bigger and more, how much more growth we see at Geneva Watch Days in September. Because Geneva Watch Days is predominantly independent and that show has grown year over year over year. And I'm curious to see if it will, you know, if it will continue that, that fairly aggressive trajectory. And my, my, I, I feel pretty comfortable hypothesizing that it will.

Gabe Riley (32:41)

Yeah.

Asher Afkin (32:41)

Based on what we've seen here now,

Gabe Riley (32:44)

speaking of Geneva Watch Days. Yeah. One of the brands at the center of Geneva Watch Days is Breitling. They do not officially participate in, they don't participate in Watches of Wonders. They are doing some counter programming here in Geneva. I've heard a number of retailers say they had Breitling meetings. I'm not sure where they're showing.

Asher Afkin (33:00)

So Breitling traditionally has, has done some sort of, of, you know, large event immediately preceding the show, but they didn't

Gabe Riley (33:08)

do that this year. They're doing counter programming in Geneva. So there's some Breitling presence in Geneva. I've seen people walking around.

Asher Afkin (33:14)

Is that tied to Universal Geneva or is that.

Gabe Riley (33:16)

I have no idea. Oh, we should talk about Universal genev. But they're here in some sort of renegade rogue capacity and meeting with retailers and maybe media. Interesting. But Swatch Group is not.

Asher Afkin (33:28)

No, it hasn't, it hasn't been form, hasn't been doing. I mean, remember Swatch Group had their own counter programmed show. Think was it three or four years ago?

Gabe Riley (33:37)

Yeah. And it was on. They, they literally drove everyone around from one brand to the next around, around Switzerland.

Asher Afkin (33:44)

But they're people, they're pretty quiet.

Gabe Riley (33:46)

They're not participating at all. I don't think they participate or their brands participate in Geneva watch days from what I can recall. So I think, you know, they're really, they're sticking out like a sore thumb and you have to wonder with all of the challenges that Swatch Group is navigating, if this is something that they recon. Want to reconsider. We'll see.

Asher Afkin (34:07)

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, personally, I, I would love to see, you know, some, some Omega action here during this period of time. I would love to see some pre gay action here during this period of time. You know, it really, it's interesting because, and this goes, I think, to my point earlier about why the AP thing got under my skin so much, which it's not about whether you're doing business with some of these brands. It's about really being able to understand what everybody's doing, what makes them interesting. Not even just from a competitive standpoint, but just because we're all part of this business. And I want to know, I want to see it. It's important for everyone in the business to understand what everybody is doing and what makes them special. The other thing about it, and I think this is key too, it's the conversations you have when you bump into people from other brands, you know, and you just sort of wrap, you can wrap your head around what they're doing, even if it's not necessarily sure or

Gabe Riley (35:08)

just even be able to your point, just to be able to see a watch.

Asher Afkin (35:11)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (35:12)

Change your mind about it.

Asher Afkin (35:13)

Sure.

Gabe Riley (35:14)

And so I, you know, I think it's a huge missed opportunity. You know, Swatch has just decided, hey, we're not doing this. We're not going to be here. And we can debate whether that's the right thing for them to do or the wrong thing to do. I think it's a bit misguided from the perspective. From the perspective that for most people, whether you're an enthusiast, whether you're a retailer, whether you're a journalist or you work in some other capacity in the watch industry around the world, there's really only one, maybe two times a year that you come to Switzerland, and that's for watches and wonders and maybe Geneva watch days. That's it. You know, it's a lot of time, effort, energy, money, resources to come out here and to do this. For most people, you're away from your family, you're spending money, spending thousands on accommodations and travel. Sure. You're stepping away from your business. You know, it's a challenge for, for us. Thankfully, we have team now back in California who can run the business while we're. We're not here. But for the first few years, that was.

Asher Afkin (36:13)

Shout out to Jeff, Ellie and. And Jimmy for that.

Gabe Riley (36:16)

Absolutely. And we basically used to have to put our business entirely on hold for a week to come out here and do this. And so when you decide not to participate, like, like Swatch has done, which I, you know, like, maybe they have their own reasons, and who knows, you're kind of missing out on that opportunity. And it's not great, because when else are, you know, all these folks going to be out here for ap, I think it's particularly misguided to show up and then put a velvet rope in front of what you do because.

Asher Afkin (36:44)

Well, you know what? Yeah, you know what? I was also just thinking about that. That occurred to me. It's actually, maybe, maybe it's more telling than we think it is about what their priorities are, come to think of it. Not, not to get back to that, but it just occurred to me, by not putting any watches out and putting that gigantic wall up, what they're telling us is that they care much more about their brand than they do their product. That's the message I'm taking away from that. Because their brand at this point is standoffish and designed to keep you out out and is, you know, among other things. And the product is kind of like the reward for running the gauntlet of it, as opposed to the reason for existence and being built around it. And that structure really, really tells us something about it. You know what I mean? Like, because mo most watch brands, the first thing they want to do is put their watch on your wrist to tell you about it.

Gabe Riley (37:42)

Yeah.

Asher Afkin (37:42)

And they set it up in a way not to. So anyway, putting them aside because. Enough, enough, enough, you know, exhaust fumes directed in.

Gabe Riley (37:49)

Their point is, if you're going to make the effort to be here, if you're going to make the investment, if people around the world are coming to see your stuff, at least give them

Asher Afkin (37:57)

something to look at and participate in the community. Participate in the community.

Gabe Riley (38:03)

Nothing changes minds like going hands on with a watch or being able to see a watch in the metal and appreciate something about it that you couldn't through photos or videos.

Asher Afkin (38:14)

Well, it also helps you understand those that are passionate about a brand. Like I'll give you an example. Example, A brand that I've always been curious about but that I didn't quite intellectually understand was Bovet. And you know Bovet's watch that at the GPHG last year I thought was.

Gabe Riley (38:31)

Oh, the world timer that accounted for half hour time.

Asher Afkin (38:35)

Yes. It's so cool. But I've always sort of like not.

Gabe Riley (38:39)

I have personally, it was a daylight savings.

Asher Afkin (38:41)

Yes. Excuse me. I've always sort of struggled to understand the aesthetic of the brands, even if the watchmaking I know is exceptional. But I've had opportunities to meet people from Bovet over the years here and it's helped me understand the brand. That doesn't mean that it's a brand that Gabe and I are trying to open for collective or is even a brand that we are pursuing in any meaningful way. But what it helps us do is understand when a client says I enjoy Bovet or talks about Bovet in general, I now have a much better understanding of what the brand is trying to do, what their reason for existence is, you know, a little bit about their heritage and a little bit of an understanding of the product lines which helps me understand a client and their collecting and their interests and Bovet. And to me that's pretty cool. I mean, there are brands that we meet with all the time or that I talk to. Like yesterday, for example, I had the pleasure of meeting Christian Lass, you know, incredible watchmaker. I was introduced to him by Tim Jackson years ago. Tim was kind enough to introduce me in person yesterday. Not somebody that we're trying to open or pursue. But I'm so grateful that I got to meet and for no reason. I mean, he's just sold out forever. But the reason I bring that up is having the opportunity to be introduced to him, to spend some time with him, to handle his watches helps me understand that work. And that is so incredibly valuable. It's so critical. And same thing with, like, Hajime Asoaka. You know, it's very difficult to see any of his watches. There's so few being, you know, it's not about the retail side of it, it's about the understanding of it. It's about the collegial nature. So all of this to say what I think we are seeing right now is a over. Like, just if we zoom all the way out, out, this industry is in a state of change. Where that's going to go, that's anybody's guess. We know some brands are considering changing hands. Bauman Mercier was sold. The rumors about jlc, you know, there's rumors about Zenith, you know, like all of these things. On top of that, the growth of these secondary shows, the magnetic pole of independence, the feeling that. That the heartbeat might be moving from one. You know, maybe it hasn't, you know, maybe it's only moving by, you know, one standard deviation. But there is definitely a change. There is a pivot. And it is exciting to see, not because I know where it's going to go, but because this industry, in the time that we've been in it, you know, we've learned that evolution is very incremental and very slow, but it does, in the last five years, feel accelerated. Yeah. So, you know, we're in a state of flux. So for people who look at this and they say, like, oh, I wish that there was more of this or more of that, fair enough. But I think it's important to look at it also in the business context of we're in a state of business transition. Different brands are evolving in what they do, how they present, how they show up, where they present and their relevancy and where that's going to land will play out over the next five, 10 years. But it's definitely changing and you can feel it.

Gabe Riley (41:54)

Yeah, that's true. I think the other interesting thing someone brought up to us last night, we were hanging out with Logan Baker.

Asher Afkin (42:02)

Ah, yeah.

Gabe Riley (42:03)

He's now running marketing at Ming, but of course, he's maybe mostly known for his time at Hodinkee and as a watch journalist. But you know what he was saying. We were talking a lot to him about the show and the evolution of the show because of course, he saw it in his years covering Watch. The Watch industry as journalist. He went to all of these shows, including to Baselworld, and he was saying one of the things people complained about with Baselworld, obviously, was this idea that they felt like they were getting fleeced by the town. The city of Basel and that you'd come in, the show would come in for the week and all the prices of the hotel rooms would double and restaurants all of a sudden had dynamic pricing and were ra their pricing and all of this sort of stuff. And he was saying, you know, that seems to be what's happening now with, with Geneva. And of course, one of the big reasons the brands moved to Watches and Wonders into Geneva was because there was apparently some promise from the city of Geneva that, you know, this, this, that sort of thing wouldn't happen here. Because of course, this is the cradle of watchmaking and we appreciate the community and we want to welcome the world here to Geneva and we would never do such a thing. But of course, look at, just, you know, look at, look at hotel race in, in Genev week and all you, and you can. And look, businesses price based on supply and demand. Hotels have always priced based on supply and demand. But I think the question is, is now Geneva becoming Basel in that people are feeling, maybe they're, they're, they're taken advantage of and it's, it's getting more and more expensive to come here and to exhibit here. So that, that is another element too. I mean, we see this, this, this time in Geneva becoming more and more relevant. More brands participating here and being here in one way or another. And the same time we're hearing it's expensive.

Asher Afkin (43:58)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (43:59)

Not just to get, get a hotel room to stay in, but to get a space to exhibit in. So that's a, that's a pressure coming from the other direction. And I'm curious to see how that impacts this week in Geneva over time as well. Is that sustainable or does that become a pressure and, and a reason or maybe an impetus for brands, retailers, journalists, collectors to start looking at other ways to see watches and to spend time here? Who knows?

Asher Afkin (44:25)

Yeah.

Gabe Riley (44:26)

All right, well, we will be back in just a couple days. Before we get out of here, we'll record because we still have more watches to see. We're only halfway through this thing. We, we have the rest of today and we've got tomorrow, all day tomorrow to go hands on with more watches to check out more stuff. So after we're done, we're done with all of that, we'll be back with our favorite, favorite watches of the week and we can't wait to bring that to you. In the meantime, thank you for listening. This, of course, is openwork. It's a production of Collective Horology. You can find us online at collective horology.com and please do get in touch with questions, feedback and suggestions. We'd love to get that stuff from you guys. And to do that, just email us@podcastollective horology.com it.

Asher Afkin (45:25)

Sarah sandwich.