← Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry
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- [00:00]
Asher Rapkin
That's another thing that you really have to tip your hat to them for. You know, much like the most brands
- [00:05]
Gabe Riley
would have said, hey, we're at $60,000 on our, you know, kind of signature watch. How do we get to 80 on our next one?
- [00:10]
Asher Rapkin
Well, or, or you end up with the, with the unfortunate alternative solution which is like a baby Benz. Right, right. Where it's like. Yeah, it's not, it's not.
- [00:18]
Gabe Riley
You know, they've managed to introduce watches at significantly lower prices without watering down the drink.
- [00:25]
Asher Rapkin
Did you like that? I get an actually relevant and accurate automotive reference.
- [00:28]
Gabe Riley
Baby Benz.
- [00:29]
Asher Rapkin
There you go. Thank you. I was embarrassed.
- [00:31]
Gabe Riley
Like a 20 year old analogy or metaphor? But sure, I guess I don't know the difference between an analogy and a metaphor. So this is openwork, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co founder of Collective.
- [00:49]
Asher Rapkin
I'm Asher Rapkin, co founder of Collective.
- [00:51]
Jeff Souder
And I'm Jeff.
- [00:52]
Gabe Riley
Huh. Well, weird. Yeah, okay, look. Well, as I'm sure you know, Collective is an authorized retailer of many independent brands who are exhibiting. Exhibiting this week in Geneva at Geneva Watch Days. We're recording live from the Hotel east west where the alternative Horological alliance is exhibiting. So we've got Fears. Ming Fleming Messina Lab is downstairs with Unimatic as well. They've been nice enough to furnish us with a private room to record. So big thanks to those guys. The purpose of today's podcast is of course to talk about our favorite watches from Geneva Watch Days. And oh my my, have we seen lots of watches. We're each going to pick three watches and we'll tell you why we love them. And of course, links to all of those watches will be in the show notes@collective horology.com blog. But maybe the most important thing we should do before we talk watches is introduce Jeff, who's joining us today. Jeff is none other than Jeff Souder. He is the director of sales at Collective. He's been with us for over a year and this is his first appearance on openwork. So je. Welcome to openwork.
- [02:06]
Jeff Souder
Thanks for having me.
- [02:08]
Gabe Riley
Now, is this your first time at Geneva Watch days?
- [02:11]
Jeff Souder
It sure is. It's been a real blast seeing everything that's going on out here.
- [02:15]
Gabe Riley
And you've been to Geneva before for work. You've been in the watch industry for a while, but this is your first time in Geneva at Geneva Watch Days. What are your impressions of this show?
- [02:26]
Jeff Souder
When I've been here before, it's been very formal. It's felt very buttoned up. It's felt very orchestrated and just deeply organized. And what I found here is that there's a chaotic beauty in the madness of both casual and incredible watchmaking.
- [02:42]
Asher Rapkin
Chaotic beauty. It sounds like my life now that
- [02:45]
Gabe Riley
that describes it and it probably describes some of the watches we're going to talk about now. We thought it would be good to have you on the show today because you do nothing but talk watches all day long. Of course, many of our customers, all of our customers know you and talk to you about watches all the time. So your perspective on what you saw today is super valuable to us and to everyone listening. Why don't we just talk about some watches? Asher, we're going to start with you. Each of us will pick three watches and we'll, we'll sort of go around here one by one. So Asher, what is your first pick?
- [03:21]
Asher Rapkin
Well, I'm going to start with a brand we don't carry, but one that I, we have worked with in the past and that we adore and one that, I mean, Jeff, you tell me how you feel, but kind of, kind of gets into your brain and never really leaves once you experience it, which is Urwerka.
- [03:38]
Jeff Souder
Yeah, I'm having sleepless nights over this one.
- [03:40]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, that's, that's kind of what they do to you.
- [03:42]
Gabe Riley
So Jeff will, after visiting her work, Jeff will never be the same.
- [03:45]
Asher Rapkin
Well, that's, that's kind of how it works with Urwerk, you know, because you, if you, if you don't get it, like, if you're a listener who's, who's listening to us right now going, really? I would just encourage you to make your way in any way that you can, to go hands on with as many Ur works as you can. Because the they, they are, they are sculptures, they are highly conceptual and they are deeply meaningful watches. And then if you take all that away, they're just badass.
- [04:12]
Gabe Riley
Which I'll recommend on that is. We did a video, we did a collaboration years back with Urwerk and we did a video for that collaboration, which wasn't so much about the watch, but it was about. More about Urwerk's philosophical approach to watchmaking and, and watch design. We interviewed Martin Fry, one of the co founders of, of Urwerk. And if you're just curious to get on the wavelength and learn about the brand, check out that video. We. We'll put it in the show notes.
- [04:38]
Asher Rapkin
So I'll try to make this brief, but my favorite one of my top three watches from this trip was the UR150 Blue Nice? Yeah, that this is a new Release as of 2 days ago or so. It is an evolution of a watch that debuted last year at watch time New York. The UR150 Scorpion. Look this to me is a distillation of what makes or work or work. It is my from in my personal opinion is the best watch they have ever made. And that's saying a lot because I love, love a lot of their watches. But ultimately the 150 blue distills their design language, distills their technology and distills their aesthetic overall into a very clear and very ownable watch. That also I should add has been slightly tweaked from the original case design to make it even more ergonomic. Because that's the thing I think a
- [05:29]
Gabe Riley
lot of I tried the two watches on back to back when we were at Urwerk and the first Scorpion. I love the original. I love, it's a great watch. But I noticed like, you know I have a six and three quarter inch wrist and I noticed that where the strap integrates with the case it flared off my wrist a little bit. Then I put the blue version on the new release and it just hugs the wrist. And they explained they made a couple of tweaks to the case and where the case and the strap integrate and this thing just. It's got a very organic shape which is cool but it just gels on your wrist.
- [06:00]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, it's a beauty to wear and I think that that's it. You know a lot of people look at an urwer in general and it can be intimidating. You think maybe they're not going to fit on my wrist. Maybe it's going to look. You know, it's kind of like a horological machine from MB and F where it's like it's clearly a piece but they're. You gotta, you gotta have the confidence and the wherewithal to wear these things. I don't think that's true about the 150. The 150 is a watch that you wear every day. It's that comfortable, it's that reasonable. It has a screw down crown. I believe it's the one of the fewer works that that actually has that. So it checks every box. For me it's 118,000 USD so you know it's, it's not at the top of the orwork range. It's sort of in the middle. But it really does deliver on absolutely everything I think somebody would ever want from that brand. Absolutely love It Slam dunk. Chef's kiss.
- [06:48]
Gabe Riley
Yeah. It's the earwerk that threads the needle.
- [06:51]
Asher Rapkin
Jeff, hit me with a. Hit me with a choice.
- [06:53]
Jeff Souder
Well, you kind of took mine, so I have to think of another one now.
- [06:56]
Asher Rapkin
Think best.
- [06:58]
Jeff Souder
I think I'm going to go with a. Well, first of all, I'm going to go with the Carl Suchi Belvedere. And I. And just in general, Carl Suchi makes some really interesting watches. They're kind of like 50, 50 technical prowess and beautiful geometric design. And one thing that I find interesting about them is they're just super hypnotic. And when the. When I saw the Belvedere, I saw this watch that has this really interesting date feature in the middle of it. You just have to kind of see it. It's not.
- [07:26]
Asher Rapkin
It's not like a jump date.
- [07:27]
Jeff Souder
It's like a jump date, but then the date is split up into two separate numbers. Like, it's. It's really cool. And the date floats around the inside of the dial, but it does that on this geometric linear pattern that changes. So every time you look at the watch, it's just a little bit different, which I think is really, really cool. Usually, though, the watches that I see either focus a lot on the design or a lot on the technology. It's weird to find one that goes right down the middle of those two things. And you can look at this either way and find it to be absolutely perfect.
- [07:55]
Gabe Riley
I love that watch because it plays in a product category that we all know and understand well, which is kind of the stainless steel sports watch, but it manages to do it in a way that feels completely fresh and different. It's because of the way they handle the date and the dial design and finishing and the case construction and the case lines and all these sorts of things. It's this watch that I find very satisfying and rewarding. There's always, like, details to study and uncover. They're Easter eggs in the. In the design of the watch and even the movement. It's a. It's a tremendous watch. And I guess we should probably maybe speak a little bit out of turn here and let people know. Carl Suki is a brand that we are adding to Collective. So the Belvedere, along with Carl Suki's collection, will be available at Collective. We're proud to. To open them and represent them. And the Belvedere is one of many watches that they make, but in some ways, it is the quintessential watch they make. It's probably the most recognizable, but it's also in Just as with any of their others, extreme, like I said, just extremely thoughtful and satisfying and a very fresh take on a very well trodden category.
- [09:07]
Asher Rapkin
Also, not for nothing, lovely people.
- [09:09]
Gabe Riley
Yes.
- [09:10]
Jeff Souder
Yeah.
- [09:11]
Gabe Riley
And I think that's the primary reason we wanted to work with them. So I will do mine my first take. And it's a brand that we don't work with and that's Debitune. I had never actually handled a Debitune. Really? Yeah. I've read about the brand. I've seen the watches in person, but I've never had the chance to handle them. I've never had the chance to put one on my wrist. I've never had, let alone, gosh, what did we. We probably looked at eight watches or something like that. Yeah, I mean they're, they're really cool and they, they're one of the, you know, there's that old saying, like never meet your heroes, right? These, these watches, they're. In some ways they're so hyped. I mean this is one of the most, this is one of the hottest independent brands out there, just purely in terms of hype alone around the brand. But the product lives up to, lives up to the hype. The watch that, that really. And this is so unusual, but the one that really spoke to me, it's a novelty. I think they just released it. It's a DB25, so it's a time only watch. It's DB25 or the Starry various. But it's a novelty they just released with this beautiful burgundy dial.
- [10:19]
Asher Rapkin
I think it's anodized and then it's
- [10:21]
Gabe Riley
like an anodized color.
- [10:23]
Asher Rapkin
But if I'm not mistaken, because I know the blue version of that is an anodized titanium.
- [10:27]
Gabe Riley
Interesting.
- [10:28]
Asher Rapkin
So I wonder if it's similar process on that one.
- [10:30]
Gabe Riley
Yeah, I don't think we found out what exactly the, the process is, but like one leaning toward a dressier watch, not my thing leaning toward a burgundy watch. Very out of character for me. But there is just a soul to this object. You know, in a lot of ways debitune is kind of like this cousin to Erwerk where it's like if you put very classical watchmaking, you know, a lot of the cues of Abraham, Louis Breguet and classical watches in a blender with, in these very space age watches from Urwerk, you, you get a Debitune almost. You get this thing that looks almost like this futuristic object with very classical lines and designed and impressive, really impressive finishing and engineering and, and you know, mechanical design. But yeah, I can't get that watch out of my, my head. There is that sort of space age quality to it, but yet a warmth and a soul to it that I just found. Like, it's a word I wouldn't really normally use, but like really enchanting.
- [11:35]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah. Look, I think the thing about hype that can really be unfortunate is that there's. When something is. When a brand is surrounded by that kind of energy, I think sometimes actually clouds one's ability to look at the actual art in the watch. Because, you know, you're like, you think, oh, I can never get that. Or like, oh, like, you know, this is too out of my reach or whatever. And that prevents somebody from actually sitting down and looking at the, looking at the watch and evaluating it as the artistic object that it is. And when you sit down and you see some of these pieces, you know, you, you really, you really start to appreciate that. Similar to brands like Urwerk, like MB and F, you know, to, to a certain degree, like FP Journe even, they had a long life before the larger watch community really paid attention to them. Yeah. And, and you see that when you look at this because these brands don't come from nowhere. You know, they don't just appear out of thin air.
- [12:29]
Gabe Riley
This is someone material manifesting a hyp object.
- [12:32]
Asher Rapkin
Well, I mean. Well, no, the reason I say that is like that does happen in fashion, you know, but that doesn't really happen here because these brands, they were toiling away, I mean, debitune as a brand 10 years ago. Like that, that was that like MB and F, like our work, like all like, like Jorn 20 years ago, not even 15. You know, these were brands that had to be sold. You, you know, you, the people who, who invested in them, the early retailers et, they really made an effort to help open people's eyes to this because they are exceptional watches. Not because they are hyped, because they are beautiful. They have their own idea and they execute on it flawlessly. And when you sit down with them, you reminded of that. And to a certain degree it's. Maybe it's not hype, maybe it's just deserved attention.
- [13:23]
Gabe Riley
Yeah, I'd love to do a podcast at, at some point on like how to become a hype watch or just
- [13:28]
Asher Rapkin
the business of hype in general. Because like, you know, interesting. It does change. It, it changes people.
- [13:34]
Gabe Riley
No, but the business and psychology of, of hype products, 100%.
- [13:38]
Jeff Souder
It changes the way you look at watches themselves too.
- [13:42]
Asher Rapkin
Absolutely. And that's what I'm saying, like, you know, it's the. The collector gaze, if you will, changes for those sorts of product. Pivoting over to me, it's Mike, second choice.
- [13:52]
Gabe Riley
Asher, hit it.
- [13:53]
Asher Rapkin
Okay, so here's a watch that was profoundly successful for us and our dear friends and partners at Ming, but also a watch that I had not seen the final. The final actual production version of until we had sold out of our allocation, which is the Iris, the brand new monopusher chronograph from Ming. It's. You know, when we first heard about this watch, we were at Watches and Wonders. This year, Gabe and I sat down with Ming, and they showed us the case for this watch. It had a prototype dial in it that's nothing like the. The one that actually went into production. It might even. Yeah. I mean, it was. It was literally just essentially black.
- [14:28]
Gabe Riley
Yes.
- [14:29]
Asher Rapkin
And I remember putting it on my wrist and just going, whoa. Because the dimensions of this watch are very different than what we're used to. I wear a minimalist very often throughout the week, and I'm very used to that. That case dimension, that size, that 38 millimeter, you know, Ming. Ming case. This is 2 millimeters bigger. The wrist presence is significant, especially due to the triple lugs, but not overwhelming. It's.
- [14:53]
Gabe Riley
No. I think it's funny. Ming claims, like, it wears smaller than a 40 millimeter watch, in my opinion, from wearing it and photograph and all that stuff. Like, it wears exactly like a 40 millimeter watch. Yeah. Which I think is still impressive given that lug design.
- [15:08]
Asher Rapkin
But what I really like about it, and this, I think, is part of, like, really the essence of what makes Ming Ming is that, you know, it is a monopusher chronograph, of course. But, like, everything. Every detail on it has been thought through, including, you know, how the totalizer works as a disc. Of course, the. The fact that the dial is unphotographable because it's in constant flux. The completely new case design, the wearability of it, and because, again, Ming thinks about things holistically. It. Even though the dimensions are different, the lugs are still 20 millimeters, making it wearable and delivered actually, also on the universal bracelet. So, you know, Ming is one of those brands that, for me, it's like, when I see something that's awesome from them, it just. It makes me like, I want to, like, giggle. Like, it's just awesome because the brand just continues to elbow its way into new territories and find these creative solutions. And the Iris demonstrates that not only in, you know, how well it sold in the first release here, but also on the wrist, it delivers that when you put it on. So, you know, I'm sure we will see more in this case because that's just how the company operates down the road. But a very strong first release from them that really delivered on it when I got my hands on it.
- [16:19]
Gabe Riley
Yeah. Really wild watch. If you've ordered one and you've got one on the way, get excited. It's just so cool. And if you have the chance to check one out, whether it's at watch time, we'll be there with Ming next month or at a collector event or meet up, or if your friend has one, run, don't walk to check out this watch. It's just. It's so cool.
- [16:38]
Jeff Souder
Yeah, I guess. I, I have one here. So I, I have two loves from this show. And. And we already talked about one, which is the Scorpion from Urwerk, but the second one is the Shapiro.
- [16:48]
Asher Rapkin
Oh, yeah.
- [16:50]
Jeff Souder
So.
- [16:50]
Gabe Riley
All right, I'm. I'm glad you're bringing this one up. Hey, it's Gabe. Unfortunately, I have to jump in here because this next watch is still under embargo, so we actually can't share the details. It's a real bummer. But. But don't worry, we're going to have all the details very soon. Back to the show. I'm glad you got to check it out. We're, of course, you know, Asher and I are in the LA area, so we get to see Josh with some regularity. So we often forget, like, what a. What a treat it is. And we take for granted the ability to see his watches on a regular basis.
- [17:19]
Asher Rapkin
And this watch was also just, like, from an emotional standpoint for me, like, really special because this is one of the few watches that I had the privilege of seeing from drawing all the way through to execution, which was years, by the way. He started talking to me about this over a year and a half ago, and it's. It's just cool to see that coming to life.
- [17:37]
Gabe Riley
Years.
- [17:37]
Asher Rapkin
Years.
- [17:38]
Gabe Riley
I mean, at least one year and some months. Years at minimum toil of the watchmaker. You'll never understand.
- [17:45]
Asher Rapkin
He's been finishing each part for years.
- [17:47]
Gabe Riley
Yeah.
- [17:48]
Asher Rapkin
All right, well, all right, cool.
- [17:50]
Gabe Riley
Speaking of watches we, We. We carry now. Now, this is when I. When I shill shamelessly. No, this actually isn't a shill. This is a watch that I didn't really get until I saw it in person. And it was actually seeing a different watch that put this watch into focus for me. And this is. This is One of the biggest releases of the show in terms of, you know, notoriety and buzz, which was the Chapek Antarctique Rattrapant rur. So if you're film familiar with Chapek and the Antarctique, they've done a Rattrapant version of that watch in the past. So that's obviously a split seconds chronograph. This one's called the RUR and it' of colloquially known as the robot. And the reason why is at the cardinal point of the dial at 12 o', clock, there is a robot on the dial, the head of a robot. And when you engage the chronograph, so when you start, stop and reset the chronograph, the eyes of the robot change color. Now this is a very quirky watch. I mean, let's be honest.
- [18:55]
Asher Rapkin
Well, they don't just change color. I mean they specifically indicate the function of the watch.
- [18:58]
Gabe Riley
They change color to indicate the function of the watch. So there's a purpose that they serve and there's a connection between the brand of Chapek and the story of this, of this robot character. It's a very involved story. It's on collective horology.com blog if you want to learn about the origins of this. But I just, to be honest, like I didn't really get this watch and then I saw it in person, I was like, okay, this really works. Like this is, this is cool because they didn't just put a robot on the dial. They also invented their whole, this whole like numerical system and language for the time telling of the watch. So the indices and the watch both for, for the, the outer ring of, of the dial and then the sub dials have this sort of numerical robot language that, that they use, which is really, which is really cool and really works aesthetically. But what, what made this watch for me was we left the Chapek meeting and we went down the hall to see another brand. And as we were waiting to get into this, this other meeting, one of the members, team members from Chapek was walking down the hall and I just started chit chatting with him as you do between meetings out at Geneva watch days. And I just asked him, hey, what are you wearing? And he shows me he's wearing the original Rattrapant. And I looked at that watch and I'm like, the robot's missing. And instantly I was like, oh my gosh. I never like in some ways, because this rattrapante isn't almost, it's an upside down rattrapant it's skeletonized. The chronograph is exposed on the dial. In the original version of this watch, there was basically empty space on the top half of the dial was skeletonized and opened, and the sub registers are at the bottom of the dial. So when you add the robot, it not only adds the functionality to tell you at which stage the chronograph is engaged, but it also kind of ties. It's like the dude's rug. It ties the whole room together. And it's like, I didn't realize how much it really works, and I think for me, improves the watch until I saw the absence.
- [21:04]
Asher Rapkin
All the dude wanted was his rug back.
- [21:06]
Gabe Riley
All the dude wanted was his rug back. So, you know, you got to see these things in person.
- [21:10]
Jeff Souder
Well, don't forget who introduced us to the watch as well.
- [21:15]
Gabe Riley
Yes, there's this, like, creepy AI robot in Chappix hotel suite. It was endearing, and there's probably videos of it on, on social media. But let's just say the, the robot in the watch is really the star of the show.
- [21:31]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah. You know, and I'll also go back and just say, similar to Josh Shapiro's, this is another project that we have had the, the privilege of seeing develop over time. And one of the wonderful things about Chapek is that Xavier de Roque Morel, the CEO of the company, is very transparent and very, I mean, he's transparent with the public, but he's extremely transparent parent with his partners. And he will regularly show you extremely early ideas and prototypes to get your. Your opinion, which, by the way, he, he really is appreciative of and, and, and takes to heart. And I can't even remember the first time we heard about the, the robot. I mean, two years ago, maybe year
- [22:07]
Gabe Riley
and a half, maybe more years ago.
- [22:10]
Asher Rapkin
Years.
- [22:10]
Gabe Riley
Years of robotics in a few months.
- [22:12]
Asher Rapkin
But seriously, I mean, like, years. And yes, you know, we've seen sketches.
- [22:17]
Gabe Riley
It was two years ago.
- [22:18]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah. And it's another one where I'm again, like, really? It's exciting because, you know, I feel like I've known about this for, you know, a long time, but the way that I pictured it in my head, even from the drawings, isn't really the way it came to life. Which is a good reminder, by the way, just in general, that, like, looking at a render or looking at a, you know, an early stage drawing can't always convey, like, the power of a watch. I mean, I know that for a fact, as it relates to the iris, certainly, you know, like the render of the iris that we saw, you know, when we ordered our allocation of it is nothing compared to the actual, like, power of it when you held it in your hand. So, like so many things, it's exciting to see it because the devil's in the details. You know, like when you loop the head of the robot and you see how, how absolutely gorgeous it is, the facets, the finishing, all of the. And then you apply that to the conceptual idea. You get everything that you want, or at least everything I want from watchmaking, which is good storytelling with exceptional artistic value. And it delivers.
- [23:23]
Gabe Riley
Yeah, it's a really cool creation. With your final pick.
- [23:26]
Asher Rapkin
Yes. So, new watch that came out from our friends at Fears. The first time I saw this watch was on Dan Varney's phone at Intersect Los Angeles when commercial director of Fears. Commercial director of Fears, who very kindly gave me a sneak preview of this watch, I did not know it was coming. It's part of what they're calling the trinity. These are, these are their new generation releases across three product families at Fierce. This watch is called the, the Endurance spec and it sits inside the Redcliffe 39.5 case. But that's about as much as it shares with the original. The original version of those watches. It has a bead blasted mid case, DLC bezel and DLC case back on this really cool woven rubber strap with DLC deployant clasp. The thing that's cool about it. And I mean, look, I love watches like this. It's the same thing that attracts me to like that cool Chopard Alpine Eagle that we saw. You know, talking about the one, the one that's a ceramicized titanium high beat. You know, I'm really attracted to these kind of like stealthy, you know, kind of under the radar, high end watches that, that really, you know, they really kind of get me. But what I think is remarkable about this one in particular, and I feel this way. I was talking to Jeff about this on the walk over here, reminds me a lot of another designer who I really respect and like, Christian Knoop of iwc. The reason why is one of the best things about both IWC and FIRS is that they have incredibly well defined design languages. You know, like you can recognize Fears, you can certainly recognize an iwc. And that's because they have a very strict adherence to the way that they do things. And that's really cool. But it can be also quite constricting. You know, you can see somebody feeling trapped in that. And I remember talking to Christian about this at one point, because you Know, like if you think about like a pilot watch or Portofino, for example, from iwc, it kind of is what it is, you know, and you can't, you can't push boundaries on it unless you're Christian. And Christian has found ways to like squeeze new life out of those watches and to really, you know, force his way into new creative territories. And that is exactly what Nicholas did with this watch. This watch pushes FEARS design language without changing it into a new category. I don't know if I'd call this a. I mean, I guess it's a sports watch. It's a sports watch.
- [25:48]
Gabe Riley
Would you say? No, it's not a sport. So I did a whole. I, I actually did our fears meeting. So how would you sat down with Nicholas? He gave me the, you know, the full Nicholas Bowman scargill spiel. He and I also recorded a video which I'm going to post on this watch, going into all details. So what he said is, look, Fears already makes some sports watches. Like the Red Cliff is a sports watch. This is a tool watch. And the reason why is like, I think you're attracted to it because of the design. What attracts me to this watch are some of the technological and engineering differences between this and a standard fear. So couple things. One thing I learned is that Endurance spec, or ES for short is what they're calling this is now a line of watches within fears. So the same way like, like Mercedes has AMG or the same way Audi has S line RS cars. ES Endurance specification can be applied to any fierce model going forward. So theoretically, right, you could have a Brunswick 40s. I don't know if they're planning on that or like specifically. I don't know anything. I haven't seen a roadmap with on
- [26:53]
Asher Rapkin
there, you know, but concept, maybe there
- [26:55]
Gabe Riley
could be a Fears Arenas es. Right.
- [26:58]
Asher Rapkin
But like wild.
- [26:59]
Gabe Riley
You get the idea. And so. Well, what does that mean? It means it's built to a different and a much more rugged standard. So you liked the fact that it was a bead blaster or frosted finish across the case. The reason they've done that is because that helped them harden the case. So this case is hardened to 2000 Vickers, which is many times harder than both stainless steel itself or even titanium. They're also using DLC to further harden the bezel, the crown and the case back the. On the dial, the lume glows like a torch. This thing doesn't use, right? It's lumacast. It's. These are like Lume is mounted onto the dial itself, you know, basically similar,
- [27:42]
Asher Rapkin
as I recall, to what we did with the C2.
- [27:45]
Gabe Riley
Yeah. Or like, if you're familiar with the. The Black Bay Pro. Right, Similar, you know, so the, the indices are entirely made of lume, which is just which. So all of this, even the way they treated and finished the dial, everything about this watch has been sort of reconceived. It's a red cliff in that it shares those proportions and generally that case and whatever. But it's an entirely different standard. And this represents a new family of watches from Fierce, which I think is just kind of cool and exciting to see where they take it.
- [28:15]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, it's a great watch.
- [28:16]
Gabe Riley
Jeff, your final choice. This is it. Moment of truth.
- [28:20]
Jeff Souder
I want to set the stage a little bit before I bring this one up. So this is towards the end of the day. I think it was our last meeting. What did we have, 14 meetings that day? 15 meetings, something like that.
- [28:30]
Asher Rapkin
I don't even know what day it is, man.
- [28:32]
Jeff Souder
We were. I was totally jet lagged. I had seen so many watches at this point. And we had this one more thing to get through done. And we sit down for the meeting and in walks these two, very well dressed, well put together, gentlemen. And they put a case down on the table and they open it up and I look at these watches and it's by Holton. Rich.
- [28:53]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, man.
- [28:54]
Jeff Souder
One of the things that the first thing that I saw is I looked at the watch and I on. On somebody else's wrist and I said, I'm one of their wrists. And I said, that's a really. That's a really cool watch. I want to see it. And it's got these wonderful lugs on it that look great from a distance. Couldn't really see the details. And then they started going into the story of how the watches came to be. And we heard this story about somebody that believed so deeply in what they were doing and what they were doing is right and meaningful and had purpose that they were willing to give up basically everything to make it happen. And this was a rather long story, but I was sitting on the edge of my seat for the entire time. And by the time I picked up the first watch, I was deeply into the gravity well of this brand brand. And where I found myself was holding a watch that looked like a celebration of art nouveau. And what I mean by that is when you looked at the dial, it had this beautiful tarnished patina dial with layered gold on top of it. It had these stunning articulated lugs that were you could see them from the side. They just looked absolutely beautiful. Way over the top, yet also totally fitting into the design. It fit perfectly on the wrist and it looked like a perfect material object that reflect that the philosophies of the guy sitting on the other side of that table. And I absolutely fell in love with the brand in that moment and everything that he made.
- [30:20]
Gabe Riley
Yeah.
- [30:20]
Asher Rapkin
So I, I mean, look, I, I couldn't agree more. I mean I, I've been following Holthen Rich for, for years because anyone. And by the way, like, do you do yourself a favor if you're unfamiliar with this brand and like just stop listening to this and go, go check it out. Because I've looked at videos about this brand, I've talked to friends and collectors about the brand. But one and the complexity of the case design is. It is impossible to describe. It is impossible to explain, or I suppose it is possible, but it is, it is wholly underserving the actual execution of the watch. It is astounding. And you know, we were looking at these, we were looking at the ornament line and some of the entry level pieces that there, which are incredibly reasonable. They're you know, mid, mid mid 5000ish dollars. But they, they, they look the business and they, they carry the soul of the, of the intent with it. I mean it's very clear. And you put your finger on this, Jeff, these are intentional watches, deeply intentional watches. And you also can see not just the, the passion and the creativity and the inspiration in those watches, you can also see what the potential is. This is a relatively young man who owns the brand. He's in mid-30s, I believe.
- [31:42]
Gabe Riley
Michael.
- [31:43]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah. And you know, we saw his first in House caliber, which was amazing. Yeah, well, it's unreal for a couple of reasons. First of all, you look at it, you're like this, like, okay, like the design of this movement, it's an art nouveau watch movement. It is. And like one of the things that we've talked about in the past is, and anyone who's ever talked to me about this was going to roll their eyes. I always say this, but it's true is that watches to me, you know, because they're living in their breathing. I like, I like seeing implied motion and intent and movement design in the architecture of the movement. So, you know, some movements are designed to showcase finishing. Some movements are designed for technical purposes. Some movements are all of the above and create, you know, and emphasize the, you know, the, the idea both through the technical and the aesthetic execution of the movement. This. This does that. You can like it, you can not like it, like, whatever. But the bottom line is, is it's the. The intentionality is there, and you see it. And you can see if this is what he's doing now, and you said this to me, Gabe, if this is what he's doing now, imagine what he's going to do, you know, in 10, 15 years. I mean, that's how we feel about Josh. You know, it's like this is what Josh is doing now, 15 years, 16 years into being a watchmaker. You imagine what we're going to see from Shapiro when He's in his 40s, 50s, 60s, et cetera.
- [32:58]
Gabe Riley
This is the triple threat that the watchmaking is absolutely there. A clear creative point of view and design philosophy is there. You know, I'm looking at those watches, and I'm thinking back to our meetings with Ming, with Urwerk, with Debitune. These are brands that have very fears, very clear and distinct design codes. This is a brand that has a very clear and distinct design code. And then, Jeff, you're right. The third leg of the stool is the story of this brand and the watchmaker. It's a Dutch brand, you know, so you can only imagine, we know, how rare it is to be a Dutch watch brand or any watch brand out of outside of Switzerland, and to do something unique and to be able to put your own stamp on things. It's a remarkable brand. The watches are deeply, deeply beautiful. And because this. This brand is a triple threat, this is one of the only instances. Look, we came to Geneva Watch Days not just to talk to brands we already work with, but to find addition brands to work with. And some of those conversations are literally take years. You know, we added another brand to. To our roster at Geneva Watch Days, which is a brand we've been talking to for, like, nearly five years and years. Five years. Not just a year and a half. Literally five years. And we'll announce them when we're ready to. To do all that.
- [34:17]
Asher Rapkin
And.
- [34:18]
Gabe Riley
And we're proud of that.
- [34:19]
Asher Rapkin
Will that be in five years?
- [34:20]
Gabe Riley
No, that'll be soon. Okay. But this was a. This was one of those meetings where Asher just looked at me and he goes, I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of school here. Turn to the watchmaker and said, we want to represent this brand.
- [34:32]
Asher Rapkin
So for the record, by the way, is like, not a thing that we
- [34:35]
Gabe Riley
do that's never happened before. Usually we see things, we tell people, you know, what we think about the watches, how much we like them. And you know, we're going to follow up and be in a standard corporate meeting stuff. But Asher jumped up, stuck out his hand and we all shaked hands on the spot. So Holden Riches is a brand that is coming to collective and my God, I. This is one of those rare things. Watch it. There's no watch that's for everyone. Right? You know, there are things that I love that Asher's like, yeah, or Jeff is really into and I'm like, yeah, I kind of get it, but it's not for me. I think we all fell deeply in love. I can't wait to, to, to bring these watches in and of course share more with all of you guys about.
- [35:12]
Asher Rapkin
I'm buying one for myself straight up. It's awesome.
- [35:14]
Gabe Riley
I can't wait.
- [35:15]
Asher Rapkin
Bring it home, Gabe.
- [35:16]
Gabe Riley
Bring it home. Final pick again. This is a brand that we carry, but this is another watch that got a lot of attention at Geneva watch days. One of the bells of the ball, as it were. And it's the Singer reimagined Caballero. This is a freaking cool watch on so many levels. It's both a deeply unusual Singer, but also right at home. So this is Singer's really first time only watch. We, I think we've. Asterisk, asterisk. We've chatted about that in, in the past. What's most interesting about it, however, is it has their own proprietary movement and it uses a really interesting approach to achieving constant force. The watch has, has four barrels. Not one, not two, but four. I just did a video today breaking. We were at Singer. I did a video kind of breaking down how those four barrels work together specifically to achieve constant force to the gear training. Ah, there's the asterisk, the escapement of, of the watch. It's also obviously a haute horology movement. It's beautiful in its design. It's finished to an incredibly high standard. And I gotta tell you though, so there, it's the first time only watch has got this insane proprietary movement. So this is Singer's first technically in house movement. They've used other movements in the past, always finished at a high standard. And very interesting. This is obviously those things too, but they introduced a new dial color with this one. Yeah, they have their signature black dial, their Empire green, which they launched with, with the, with the Heritage chronograph earlier this year. By the way, the, the hair, the Empire green. The green is really inspired by Singer vehicle design. I had a chance with Marco Boruchino, who's the. The founder of Singer reimagined the watch division of the company to visit Singer Vehicle Design. And you wouldn't believe how many green cars are, are currently in production or, or being worked on at Singer Vehicle Design. Green may have had its moment in watches, but man, is it having its moment in the. The Porsche or at least the Singer wing of the Porsche community. But then there is a new dial color, petrol blue and. Wow. I did my best to get some photos and videos of this which will be on the site along with the video I talked about. But this is just. I don't know how to describe it other than a very sexy blue. It's difficult to photograph in video, but it is, I don't know, a lustrous blue. It's, it's. Tell it, girl, um, what a blue. And I, by the way, I generally don't like blue. I'd rather wear a black or a green or a white dial. But there is something about this blue.
- [37:59]
Asher Rapkin
You know what else is cool about this watch aside from its wearability? The technicality of it, the aesthetics of it, the caliber 4. So the proprietary movement is modular, which means that this watch is the first chapter in a whole range of, of potential options in the future. And those aren't, I don't think those are coming anytime like immediately. And you know, we didn't get any insight into like, what future complications could look like. But what you're really seeing here is not just a beautiful, you know, and refined watch. And holding it, by the way, revealed other details too. The classic interior coin edge bezel that, that we see on the inside is also engraved on the exterior of the bezel, which I had not really noticed until I held it. Yeah, it was very subtle.
- [38:44]
Gabe Riley
And it's in the photography, in the knurling of the cr.
- [38:47]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, exactly. And it's. These are the things that like, you, you see, but they're difficult to sometimes register until you physically hold it.
- [38:53]
Gabe Riley
It's also like a tonneau shape that, a case shape that looks more to the eye at first like a regular ordinary case. It's.
- [39:01]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah.
- [39:01]
Gabe Riley
The geometry considered from a design standard, 100%.
- [39:05]
Asher Rapkin
So this is an important watch for the brand. It's going to be, I think, you know, we, obviously, we believe in them. We carried them now for years, but years, but years. But in all seriousness, it's been about
- [39:17]
Gabe Riley
a year and a half, man. But sure, years, years.
- [39:19]
Asher Rapkin
No, but in all seriousness, the reason we followed them and I remember, you remember the first time that we met with them, we were like, we got
- [39:24]
Gabe Riley
to carry these guys.
- [39:24]
Asher Rapkin
And we met with them for, like, subsequently three more watches before you and I finally. Finally pulled the trigger on it.
- [39:31]
Gabe Riley
The thing that put us over the top was the dive track.
- [39:33]
Asher Rapkin
It was. But. But the. But my point is this just. This just solidifies my belief in the brand. Not that I needed that, but, like, it just shows that, like, these are the kinds of people that I want to invest in because you see that they're able. And again, just like we talked about with fears, like we talked about with all these other brands, they constantly are pushing in new directions, and they're constantly saying, because you look at this watch, it looks like a Singer, you know, but.
- [39:57]
Gabe Riley
Oh, yeah, but if you.
- [39:58]
Asher Rapkin
If you roll the clock back and you think about, like, the original track one, which is where I first saw Singer. I remember the hodinkee article in 2017 and seeing that and going, what even is that? And then you look at that, comparing it to the release of the Caballero. The journey of this brand in a relatively short period of time is extraordinary. And. And he's just getting started, Marco, with this line. So when you look at it, from the Caballero to the fly track to the dive track to the track one to the 1969 collection, this is a really robust and exceptionally broad collection of watches.
- [40:38]
Gabe Riley
Well, this is the thing Singer has been on an absolute heater for the last two years, because the first five years of the brand were really defined by the Track 1 and the Flytrak, both powered by agengraph movements and, you know, similar in their overall philosophy and things like that. And they kind of, I think, in a lot of the minds of a lot of collectors and media and things like that, became the unusual Chronograph graph brand and more, known for the Agen graph and a particular case shape and all that kind of stuff. There are many versions of those watches. But think about the last two years. You had the 1969 collection, you had the dive track, you had the heritage chronograph, and now you've got this, the Caballero. The brand has broken out of the mold from which, you know, which they began in a serious way. And it is just like, new collection, new approach to watchmaking, just one after the other. And so this is a brand that I think a lot of people have pigeonholed in their minds in one space or one corner of independent watchmaking and is worth taking another look at.
- [41:49]
Asher Rapkin
Yeah, not for nothing. I mean, it's just. It's just a couple hundred bucks over 25 grand and a US. And that is remarkable as well because for people who have admired singer for a long time, the heritage chronograph gave people an opportunity be at a much, you know, much, much lower price point than the previous entry. This sits very comfortably in that $20,000 range. And not to dismiss 20, 20, 000 as an immaterial sum, it's a tremendous amount of money. But if you really like this and you know, you're looking at track one for 60, $70,000, this offers no, no cuts around the corner.
- [42:23]
Gabe Riley
I mean, this really is compelling horologically.
- [42:25]
Asher Rapkin
Exactly. So that's another thing that you really have to tip your hat to them for. You know, much like the most brands
- [42:31]
Gabe Riley
would have said, hey, we're at $60,000 on our, you know, kind of signature watch. How do we get to 80 on our next one?
- [42:36]
Asher Rapkin
Well, or, or, or you end up with the, with the unfortunate alternative solution, which is like a baby Benz. Right, right. Where it's like. Yeah, it's not, it's not, you know,
- [42:44]
Gabe Riley
they've managed to introduce watches at significantly lower prices without watering down the drink.
- [42:51]
Asher Rapkin
Did you like that? I get an actually relevant, accurate automotive reference.
- [42:54]
Gabe Riley
Baby Benz.
- [42:55]
Asher Rapkin
There you go.
- [42:55]
Gabe Riley
Thank you.
- [42:56]
Asher Rapkin
I was embarrassed.
- [42:57]
Gabe Riley
Like a 20 year old analogy or metaphor, but sure, I guess I don't know the difference between an anal analogy and a metaphor. So.
- [43:06]
Asher Rapkin
All right. I think this is a good place to call it.
- [43:08]
Gabe Riley
All right. Yeah, we are delirious at the end of Geneva watch days. But man, some cool watches. And like we said on the, on the last podcast, this week has been defined by creativity. The, the highlight of this show are defined by not just being creative, but having a very clear and distinctive point of view. They march to the beat of their own drummer. And so whether it's the Caballero or an Urwerk or a Holton Riches or whatever it might be, there's certainly something to sort of wow and amaze everyone and speak to your soul. So as we wrap up and head out of here, I just get more and more excited for watches and wonders to do this all over again. When we're off in our own little corner of the world doing what we do, we obviously don't get exposed to this many watches at one point, but when you come back here and you spend your time with watches, we remember what it's all about. It's not about the people, Asher. Whoever says it's about the people is wrong. It's about the watches. People come and go.
- [44:11]
Asher Rapkin
Are you okay?
- [44:12]
Gabe Riley
No, I'M unwell. The jet lag has finally, finally gotten to it. All right, I guess we'll leave it there.
- [44:19]
Asher Rapkin
Good for me.
- [44:20]
Jeff Souder
Good for me. Thanks for having me, Jeff.
- [44:22]
Gabe Riley
Thank you for joining and thank you all for listening. Openwork is, of course, a production of Collective Horology. You can find us online@collective horology.com we've got some watches from Geneva watch days there too. And get in touch with your questions, your feedback or your suggestions. We love those. And to do that, just email podcast collective horology.com Sam.