← Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry
Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry
The Rise of F.P.Journe – Hype, Substance, or Both? – Episode 74
01:00:02
Loading summary
Transcript254 lines
- [00:01]
A
I don't think there's any perfect way to do it, but I think what they're rewarding instead is people who are savvy at playing the game.
- [00:06]
B
Journe's answer to that may very well be, then we're not the brand for you.
- [00:12]
A
This is openwork, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co founder of Collective.
- [00:19]
B
And I'm Asher Rafkin, co founder of Collective. Collective Horology is an independent watch retailer based in Southern California. We carry a wide range of independent brands, including David Kando Chapek and Speak Marine. To learn about us, check out our available inventory. Visit collective horology.com Gabe? Saturday.
- [00:37]
A
I'm here. What?
- [00:39]
B
Saturday. Saturday. Saturday, June Six. Six. Six.
- [00:43]
A
Yes.
- [00:44]
B
On Saturday, June 6th, we have our third annual open house. We have shared information about this in the last couple of episodes, and of course, our mailing list has received some advance notice. But today I'm incredibly happy to share the full lineup.
- [01:01]
A
Full brand roster, indeed. Thirteen in all. Over a. It's not just a dozen. It's over a dozen.
- [01:08]
B
The Baker's Dozen.
- [01:09]
A
Yeah, it's a. Oh, oh, the Baker.
- [01:11]
B
The Baker's Dozen.
- [01:12]
A
Wasn't there, like, there was a fish? 13 fish shows at Madison Square Garden. The Bakers. Well, now we've got our own. LA has its own Baker's Dozen. Who's going to be there?
- [01:21]
B
Me. I'll be there.
- [01:22]
A
Wait, you're one of the 13 brands? That's not fair.
- [01:25]
B
Well, without further ado, I'm incredibly proud to share the following brands, some of whom have never, ever come to the west coast of the United States before. So joining us at Open House this year will be Armin Strom, Carl Suki, David, Kando Holthenrics, Ming Dominique Renaud, and Renaud Tixier. Singer Fierce Chapek, Sartori Biard, Speak Marine. And a special guest appearance by our friends at Fleming.
- [01:54]
A
Whoa. Yeah. The Alternative Horological alliance is turning out. We got Fleming. Ming Fears.
- [02:04]
B
Yeah.
- [02:04]
A
Pretty sweet.
- [02:05]
B
It is. This is, in all seriousness, the largest event that we've ever produced ourselves. We're incredibly humbled and proud of how this event has grown over the years, and we are really, really looking forward to seeing people come down for it. The event is free, however, an RSVP is required. So if you'd like to attend, all you got to do is head over to collective horology.com openhouse and give us your name and your email, and we'll make sure that you're on the list. You can of bring guests. Just please register them under their own names. We ask for that for courtesy and security.
- [02:42]
A
Yeah, no, and to be specific, there is a guest list at the door. To get it, gain admission, you need to be on the guest list. We're. It's looking like we may reach capacity. We did last year. We had to close the guest list last year. So this isn't the kind of thing where you can just hope to show up the day of. That's certainly not going to be the case. And we already have more RSVPs this year than we had in our. Our entire first year doing it. And we're coming up on the number of RSVPs we had last year where we had to close the list.
- [03:13]
B
But that's okay because we have a slightly larger room. This year we do. So we've got a bit. We have a bit more space.
- [03:18]
A
We will close the list. But there will be more space.
- [03:20]
B
Well, we will at some point, but we're not quite there yet. But all of a sudden.
- [03:24]
A
Come on, Asher. Fear of missing out.
- [03:26]
B
No.
- [03:26]
A
No. RSVP or else.
- [03:29]
B
Exactly. Dear listeners, now's the time. But regardless, we'd love to see you. So come on down. Hey, I'm really excited about this topic.
- [03:37]
A
You're very excited about.
- [03:38]
B
I am. Well, because you've can't stop talking about it. I can't because you keep. You keep hitting me with the Rolex market stuff. And I want to talk about. I want to talk about something dear to my heart.
- [03:46]
A
The people love the Rolex market. I mean, one of the things Adrian Barker told us years ago is like, anytime you put Rolex Tudor or Omega in like a video description, it. It gets tons of. Tons of downloads or views. You put anything else in there and it's. It's crickets. I think we're seeing that on our own YouTube. It's more actually with YouTube than with Instagram. It's funny, I see Instagram really distributes the content much more evenly, just regardless of which brand we're talking about. But on YouTube, the YouTube algorithm loves Rolex. So no one is going to watch these videos on YouTube. But hey, you're here for it on the podcast. Thank you for listening. And we're talking about Jorn, specifically the rise of Jorn. This was something.
- [04:31]
B
You said that. And the first thing that popped into my head was like, the rise of Skywalker.
- [04:35]
A
It sounds like a movie. The rise of Journe. The rise of Journe. And the thing that got me really thinking about it was. When we've talked about Rolex and the other performance in the watch market, the brands that are running away with it are the brands who are in the $50,000 and up segment and the watches in that segment. And Jorn certainly falls in there. But one of the things that's been interesting about Jorn, to me, it's not just the rise of the brand. And look, we' talk about what makes the brand so. So compelling and a bit of the history and the ingredients of, of the brand that led to its rise. But is really this idea of, of the financialization of Journe. Journe is. Is really kind of the only independent brand I can think of that has become an object of speculation, a la, say, like a. An Audemars Piguet.
- [05:24]
B
Yeah.
- [05:25]
A
Which you could argue, oh, it's technically an independent brand, but you know, the AP business, the Patek business, the Rolex business, these are businesses at. And so as an independent maker, Journ has become this object of hype and speculation at a scale we don't really see among other independents, which is fascinating to me. So we're going to look at how exactly they got there. What are the drivers of sort of the, the rise, the hype and the financialization of Jorn? Some of it is crowd psychology, some of it is, frankly, shrewd business practices and incredible watchmaking. There are a lot of drivers of it, but, man, there's a little bit of everything in this story, isn't there? Yeah.
- [06:07]
B
And I think when we start, right, we can start by talking about, of course, the watches, but I think it's good to also ground ourselves in the man himself and full transparency. While I've met members of the Journe family, I've never met the man himself personally, but his personality trickles through the entire organization. And, you know, he's one. We hear this story a lot in the independent watch world, but it's also important to remember that a lot of the major attention that has come on or come into the collector sphere around independent watch collecting is largely due to many of the contributions and the growth of brands like FP Journe or HU Linen, for example, you know, which have really been, you know, or you could argue Daniel Roth or, you know, this sort of this. This cohort of folks from late 90s, early 90s, even, you know, late 80s, early 90s, that kind of like move into what would snowball into what we think of as this modern cohort of independent watchmakers. When we think about FP Journe, you know, he started he started as an extremely young person. His first class that he enrolled in, like, officially school. He enrolled in officially was in Marseille. Was at the Marseille Horological School.
- [07:25]
A
French, not Swiss.
- [07:26]
B
Yep.
- [07:26]
A
Which is interesting.
- [07:27]
B
And he did that when he was 14 years old. And interestingly, he was expelled from that school.
- [07:32]
A
Ooh, bad boy.
- [07:33]
B
Yeah, he was expelled.
- [07:34]
A
Expelled at 14.
- [07:35]
B
No, expelled at 16.
- [07:36]
A
Okay. I was expelled first.
- [07:38]
B
Exactly. That's another story. We'll add that to the paid subscriber section if that ever happens. Separate issue, Andy. Others deep cut. Anyway, long story short, so he was expelled and he was expelled for. Apparently, this is according to a book called FP Journe, the First 30 Years. It's written by a gentleman named Kieran Sheker. He was expelled for having really loud opinions and a very strong point of view, which he was told was not a temperament that would help him be successful in the industry. And the thing that I find really amusing about that is this is a trend that we definitely see amongst many creatives in the world.
- [08:14]
A
Oh, yeah, beyond watches.
- [08:16]
B
Totally.
- [08:16]
A
Specifically beyond watches.
- [08:17]
B
Just people who are just, like, not interested in the status quo. Yeah. They have their own. Their own point of view. And you could see, you know, people often talk about FP Jordan as a polarizing figure. We're going to avoid that whole conversation because, again, I have no firsthand experience.
- [08:31]
A
We've never met the guy. We have no opinion.
- [08:33]
B
But what is clear is because that's out in the ether. He's been this way forever. And there has always been this kind of, you know, counterculture that he has cultivated around watches and watchmaking. We'll talk about this. But, you know, his watches are only popular in the last seven years. Yeah.
- [08:54]
A
I mean, from a commercial standpoint, the brand was founded in 1999. That's when he. He launched at Baselworld 1999, the FP Journe brand.
- [09:03]
B
Right.
- [09:03]
A
And we can talk about what he was doing before. Before that. But yeah, the first 20 years, essentially, of the FP Journe brand. Most of the brand's history, it was. It was certainly a successful endeavor, but it didn't achieve the kind of the renown and the hype and the sp. The speculative frenzy that we now associate with the brand, really, until the COVID era. And we'll talk about what happened there. But yeah, for. For the first 20 years of the brand, as you'd expect, you know, FP Journe was sort of an independent watch, a darling of the independent watch team, but very much a niche independent watch brand.
- [09:40]
B
Yes. And of course, we have to recognize, too, that he stands on other people's shoulders too, and has been very transparent and clear about his great affection, love, and admiration for George Daniels. And, you know, even he even wrote an incredibly sweet and heartfelt note on behalf of the Daniel or on behalf of his relationship with George Daniels when. When Mr. Daniels passed away in 2011. So, you know, you can draw these lines, you know, from all of the sort of, you know, modern to, you know, recently modern to. To granddaddies of watchmaking that. That ultimately lead you to FP Journe.
- [10:18]
A
Yeah.
- [10:18]
B
And then, of course, lots of people that fall out from FP Journe not only from an aesthetic standpoint, but also from a inspiration and technical standpoint. Because FP Journe, of course, long before Louis Vuitton tried to get in the game, was honoring young watchmakers with his own awards, which we can talk about, and has also helped elevate other people around him that he believes in and that he believes are offer is offering a strong creative or technical point of view in the world of independent watchmaking. So whatever your feelings may be about FP Journe, when we talk a little bit about the business side of this or a lot about the business side of this and how it's grown, when people mention his somewhat being well known for being a bit of a cantankerous guy, I think it's all a character. But I think it's also important to put all of that into context. So much of what we do at Kollektiv is not possible without FP Journe. So much of the modern independent watch world is not possible without FP Journe. And there are many, many, many, many independent watchmakers out there who owe a great deal of their success to FP Journe.
- [11:27]
A
Whether it's the industry more broadly, the
- [11:29]
B
whole industry around, it's good. All of this is good context to have as we take a look the phases his business has gone through and what it's done to the greater industry, because he is without a doubt, an outsized figure in this world that we love so much.
- [11:47]
A
Yeah. So before he launches his brand at the famous 1999 Basel Fair, he's essentially, from what I understand, a consultant in the industry. So he's doing. Providing watchmaking services for other larger brands, kind of like almost like a. Like a Renault Poppy and gosh, any number of other watchmakers who sort of toiled in the background before starting their own brand. I don't believe he. He worked at or trained at a specific watch brand in particular.
- [12:17]
B
Well, no, I mean, the. So after he left this Marseille horological school, he went to work for, I believe, his grandfather, who was a clock restorer, and he started building his own, like his first watch, which was a pocket watch, it was a tourbillon. He finished it in 1983. He started working on it in 1978,
- [12:37]
A
but took so long, man.
- [12:38]
B
Exactly. So that was his first real. His first real piece under his own name.
- [12:45]
A
But he wasn't like a Sven Danderson or a lot of other folks who maybe started working at, like Patek Philippe as a watch and then departed to start his own brand. He was working independently for. For his whole career.
- [12:57]
B
Yeah. And he was making, I mean, very, very small number of these, but he did make on commission a handful of these pocket watches. Yes, that's right. For other. For other collectors in Europe. And then he made his very, very first watch, which was also a tourbillon, in 1991. So, you know, we're progressing here. It's still eight years until the official quote, unquote, brand launches. Yeah, but he's moving. He's moving from pocket watches into wristwatches. He's slowly beginning to increase that.
- [13:29]
A
So he's an independent watchmaker in the truest sense, and a restorer. Some pickup work here for a brand or another brand or a collector or a commission piece, but it's all. All very ad hoc. Yeah.
- [13:41]
B
And you can also see a real connection to another very famous French watchmaker, AL Breguet, in the design of the movement in that pocket watch. And then other certain. And then a lot of aesthetic connection, certainly down the marine chronometer path, et cetera, that has a conn. To that era, that, that sort of Breguet, you know, longitude era, if you will. I'm combining a few things here, but like the Breguet subscription pieces, the Harrison clocks, you know, the. The Arnold. Arnold and Sons chronometers, Like these are all of a particular era that we're feeding into. What, what is. What leads to the aesthetic. And in some cases, certainly if you look at the architecture of the original tourbillon pocket watch, I see a lot, a lot of reference to. To Breguet subscription style design or movement design. So there's a lot that's like funneling into him that's coming from the back, from the channel of restoration and historical pieces while he's finding his own voice and he's finding his own technical ability and honing that through the 90s.
- [14:41]
A
So he launches his brand, the FP Jordan brand, at the Basel Fair in 1999. There's a couple interesting things here. First, I believe the first watch he launched was also a tourbillon wristwatch. Tourbillon souvaran. And one of the interesting stories. And so what I think there's a couple things going on here with. With Jorn. Like, one is he definitely borrows from classical watchmaking and classical aesthetics, but also very much puts his own stamp on things and brings his own innovation to things. So many of his. His early watches were really groundbreaking. Horologically, many of his modern watches are. Yeah. But I mean, he came out of the gate strong. It wasn't just like, oh, here's a, you know, a beautiful, classically rendered handmade watch. He brought real technical innovation, you know, combining things like tourbillons with constant force mechanisms. Very famous for his. One of his earliest watches was his resonance piece. So he's doing things that are not just classically appealing horologically, which I think is part of his appeal, but also breaking. Breaking new ground. One of the funny stories about this, this Basel Fair in 1999, the urban legend was he ended up raising the retail price of his watch like three times during the show because apparently the watches were being presented at the booth and retailers would come by. And when he told them what the price of the watch was, which was the retail price of watch, they assumed it was wholesale. And they're like, that's the wholesale price. Right. And so the urban legend is, twice during the fair, he raised the prices of those early tourbillon souverans because the market just couldn't believe what the price was. He's asking, I don't know what the price is, but that's an urban legend about that fair that I saw in multiple places, which speaks to just how compelling people out of the gate thought these watches were. And what a breakthrough horologically the tourbillon souvarin was. So he had very strong success early on and really was a darling of the independent watch scene for those first 20 years. It's not like this was a guy who was toiling in pure mediocrity. You know, the watches did become collectible. The watches did perform strongly at auction. In the first 20 years of the brand, there were plenty of journe pieces that sold for above retail on the secondary market. Not all did, but there. But there were. But this is not like, you know, a brand that was really struggling, where the watches would then go on to the secondary market and be worth a fraction of what they were. They Preserved their value relatively well. And he was recognized, I think among. In this chapter. And granted the world of independent collectors was smaller than it is now, but he was recognized by serious and independent collectors as a master watchmaker.
- [17:34]
B
Well, so I don't entirely agree with that. I think that for a long time, for a long time, like certainly through like the late 2000s and into the 2000s, FP Journe was, was kind of a story of two brands because you had at the high end, you know, the, the tourbillons, you had, as you mentioned, the resonance pieces. And you're right, like those, those performed.
- [18:00]
A
Yes.
- [18:00]
B
And people knew what those were, but the time only pieces, you know, they didn't really ever find a hook that got to economic success. To be clear, the watches are and were magnificent. But you know, watches like, you know, the Octaloon, for example, like, was offered quite frankly at a pretty reasonable discount to a lot of people for a long period of time.
- [18:28]
A
Open up. You were, you were a Journe collector.
- [18:31]
B
So I became aware of FP Journe probably in like 2011, 2012. So well past like, you know, a lot of the early collectors. And at the time it was well outside my means.
- [18:44]
A
Yeah.
- [18:45]
B
And, but, but I, I immediately was attracted to the aesthetics of it. And when I was able to, to afford it, I bought two. Two Jorns, which along with the rest of my collection was. Was incinerated to create startup capital for collective. But, but so be it. But the two watches that I owned were a elegance and a chronometer blur. And when I bought the chronometer bleu, I just walked into the LA boutique, which had one.
- [19:12]
A
Were you next door at the real estate office? And then you just want it. What's the real estate place that's.
- [19:17]
B
Oh, oh, the one that's selling Sunset.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah, the Oppenheim Group.
- [19:21]
B
The Oppenheimer.
- [19:22]
A
Yeah.
- [19:22]
B
I find it hilarious that they're next door, but they both wear like Rolexes. But whatever.
- [19:26]
A
Anyway, so you're at the Oppenheim Group and you wandered over to the Journe Boutique.
- [19:30]
B
I was over there pitching some reality, but I go into the Journe Boutique and I just bought it. Just bought it. It was, it was just available.
- [19:35]
A
Okay, so let's, let's slow down here. What was that experience? You weren't next door at the Oppenheim Group, but you go to the Journe Boutique, presumably to buy the watch.
- [19:44]
B
This was in 2016.
- [19:46]
A
What was like. Tell me about that experience.
- [19:49]
B
Well, so what was interesting and anyone you know, I think it's largely true today, you know, but it's not. It's much more common than it was, you know, 10 years ago. The Journe boutique really did feel like a very. Just sort of like open living room with a bar, you know. Yes, there were certainly watches on display, of course, but the focus of it was really this big bar in the back with beautiful natural lighting and you'd sort of hang out there and have a drink and they'd produce watches for you and you'd chill and it had more of a clubhouse Y vibe, which was there.
- [20:23]
A
Like, was it the gaslighting thing of here's all the watches you can't buy or these are watches that were available.
- [20:29]
B
No, no. In 2016. If it was there, it was there.
- [20:32]
A
Got it.
- [20:32]
B
Okay. If you, you wanted it, you could have it. And there was none of that. They did. You know, I remember I did call a couple of days in advance because I was coming down to LA and I was like, hey, do you have a chronometer blow? And they're like, yes. I was like, any chance you could hold it for me? They're like, sure, but you got to put $5,000 down as a deposit and if you don't take it, we keep it.
- [20:50]
A
And you did you put the deposit down?
- [20:52]
B
I did.
- [20:52]
A
Wow.
- [20:53]
B
Because I was pretty confident that I wanted the watch. I mean, it was one of those things where it's like, you know, at that point, if I, if I hadn't gotten that watch, I probably would have waited a couple of weeks or months and gotten the next one.
- [21:01]
A
Plus, you knew you could flip it and double your money.
- [21:03]
B
Oh, far from it. And I'll get there. But, but anyway, it was a perfectly pleasant conversation. I had a great time there and I walked out with what is one of the most magnificent watches I've ever, I've ever had on my wrist. The elegant. I bought for, I think, a reason that, if I'm being candid with you, I think a lot of people do, which is it's. It was a cool looking watch, which at the time was only $11,000.
- [21:26]
A
Did you buy that at the boutique as well?
- [21:28]
B
I did. It was only 11,000 bucks at the time, you know, and the movement was equally beautifully finished and the whole thing bubbled down.
- [21:36]
A
I remember you'd pick it up and the hands would snap into place.
- [21:39]
B
I mean, in fairness, the art, the Seiko Arnie does the same trick for 300 bucks.
- [21:42]
A
But both are cool.
- [21:43]
B
Both are cool. And it was just awesome watch. Anyway, this is right before my first child was born. First child was born. And you know, I started to panic and then started founding collective, et cetera. And I sold the watch and I sold it for $17,000.
- [21:58]
A
What'd you buy it for?
- [21:59]
B
26, 24, something like that. 24, 20. It was somewhere in there. And I thought that I lucked out.
- [22:04]
A
Yeah, you got out of an independent
- [22:06]
B
value retention was, was pretty reasonable. You know, that's what I, what I considered. And then I remember another retailer, because at the time Jorn was also distributed through a small number of retailers. A retailer that I knew who I'd done some business with, sent out a list because he was being closed as Jorn was going boutique only and they were blowing out the watches. You know, you could buy an Octa for like, you know, 20,000 bucks.
- [22:29]
A
Oh. So this was like an email to their clients, like, hey, these watches are on sale.
- [22:33]
B
This is, this is like 20, this is 2019.
- [22:37]
A
Wow.
- [22:38]
B
So, you know, again, at this point, like dealers are saying like they're going in house. It is what it is.
- [22:43]
A
We got, we got to get rid of this. We gotta clear this stuff that's sitting on our books.
- [22:47]
B
And then the pandemic happens. But what, but what happens here, and I think this is a really important thing to note, is a couple of dynamic pivots happen now. Now when I bought these watches personally in 2017, 16, somewhere around there, the independent market was just beginning from a fight. Again, I'm talking from a financial standpoint in the United States to really begin picking up steam. And the discussion of these watches, in fairness, driven very heavily by Ben Clymer's passion for these watches and advocacy.
- [23:24]
A
This is when brands like Groenefeld Laurent, somebody enjoyed MB and F. They're starting to really gather steam.
- [23:31]
B
Yeah, I mean, and think about what's happening.
- [23:33]
A
But starting.
- [23:33]
B
Yeah, but think about what's happening. Right? We're starting to see Urwerks being worn in Marvel movies, right. Famously, Robert Downey Jr. Is a big supporter of Urwerk and wore them as Tony Stark. We're beginning to see people taking some more commercial risk. Hodinkee as it's on its like exponential climb. Does a 10 piece limited run with MB and F N pieces.
- [23:54]
A
Yeah, they did a Laurent Ferrier too.
- [23:55]
B
I believe they did several Laurent Ferrier's, you know, so we're starting to see not only people saying, I believe in this, but like the money is starting to flow and members of the AHCI are becoming more well known outside of the tiny little collector circle that was really committed to them at the time. So this is happening in the background and it's generating this awareness. That awareness starts pulling in collectors that are in orbit of that, but not the cognoscenti. So that's like me, where I'm finding out about this stuff years later, but I'm getting pulled into it it. And then we get to a moment where we see two things happening. We start to see on the one hand, a huge economic craziness where money becomes free through the.
- [24:41]
A
Well. But you're going to talk about COVID Yeah. Something important happened before COVID though, to Journe 2018, Chanel buys a minority stake in the brand.
- [24:51]
B
Thank you for pointing that out. I was going to come back to that, but go ahead.
- [24:53]
A
Their timing couldn't have been better because this is 2018. They acquire a 20% minority stake. And as they've done with other independent brands in whom they have a stake, it's intentionally hands off. And this does a couple of things. One is it gives Journe some, some cash. Yeah, cash infusion, I suspect, although I don't know. But I'm going to make a guess like that may have helped them accelerate their boutique only model. So prior to this point, they had, had. They had their own boutiques and then a small network of retailers, and they've gradually moved to be boutique only. This probably helps them do that. Setting up boutiques ain't. Ain't cheap. The timing would allow.
- [25:33]
B
Well, what was interesting about that is they actually had a pretty robust boutique network prior to the Chanel acquisition. And that boutique network grew, but it didn't grow significantly larger. What it did do. And I think this is where, and I don't know how, because I don't know the inner workings of the deal, but I presume when you look at the way that Chanel invested and then you look at some of the choices that Jorn made, I think what he was doing, taking a step back and looking at it all was, I don't want to be speaking as him like, I don't want to be one of many. I want to be the only conversation in the room. I think that I, you know, that my watches deserve that. And I put my money where my money, you know, where my mouth is years prior by building out a boutique network for an independent brand, which again, if you start thinking radical ideas. Idea, radical idea. You know, boutique in Tokyo with its own limited editions. Boutique in New York, boutique in la, boutique in Miami, like, where else Keep boutiquing me. That's what I know. Off the top of my head, you know, obviously in Geneva too. And the Geneva boutique, by the way, I went to the Geneva boutique in like 2018 before it like moved into its new space. It was literally like a second floor corner. Like, you know, this was like a flag planted. But it wasn't, you know, remember, the
- [26:43]
A
second floor is the first floor in Geneva.
- [26:45]
B
And there you go, go. But he clearly believed long before he went boutique only that that was where he wanted to go. He built that infrastructure before he.
- [26:55]
A
So why does he take the money? He's got a successful operation, he's got a boutique, boutique network. He's got a tight retail network. So successful making 800 to 1000 watches a year, they're doing relatively well for an independent. Why take the money?
- [27:11]
B
Again, this is speculative based on looking outside and what we know about the business. But it wasn't a tight retail network. It was a small retail network. But I think, you know, in some cases and he was working with some great partners, don't get me wrong. I mean, he was working with like the Hourglass, you know, like I remember seeing some pieces at the Malmaison, like
- [27:30]
A
if Collective was around then selling independent watches, we would kill to be a Journe retail.
- [27:34]
B
Totally. So it's no shade on these retailers. But I think the reality was, and the Malmaison is a great example of this in Singapore, like you went into this palace of independent watchmaking and they were just like watching everywhere. And Journe was on the second floor or the first floor, if you will. But my point being, like, it just wasn't the focus, you know, And I think a lot of it was, well, if I want to see my watches increase in value and desirability, it needs to be a singular focus while this is happening and people are starting to pay attention to it and they are starting to reach out and they are starting to buy. Covid happens and we start to see,
- [28:12]
A
just to put a capstone on this first 20 years of journe 1999-2019, the brand can stand on its own as an independent.
- [28:19]
B
Absolutely.
- [28:20]
A
Has its own retail Network. It's making 800 to 1,000 watches a year. It's presenting horological breakthroughs against any metric then or today. It's a successful independent brand. It's a blue chip independent brand. So much so that before things go crazy, even chanel buys a 20% totally runaway success in the world of independent watchmaking.
- [28:43]
B
Yes.
- [28:44]
A
Now, Asher, take us to the age of masks and free money.
- [28:49]
B
Right?
- [28:50]
A
We can.
- [28:51]
B
I think there's debate over how intentional this was. There's denial, a fair amount of denial about it. But again, let's just look at the facts. A significant number of FP journes over the course of the late 2010s and certainly leading into Covid were starting to be snatched up, pre owned, and they were being snatched up by a lot of dealers. But predominantly, and again, this is anecdotal because they don't talk about it, the 1916 company or at that point, Watchbox, and they start valuing those watches higher with every sale and they start ticking up and up and up. And this is where we start to see an interesting pivot in FP Journe's approach to allocation, FP Journe's approach to new clientele, and the value of these watches. And when I say value, I'm referring explicitly the financial value of these watches, not the aesthetic value. And this creates ripples through the watch community because suddenly chronometer blues that were, you know, 24, $25,000 retail watches are being sold for $100,000. Now, look, we are seeing this all across, you know, the world. And you know, everyone remembers the era of the $175,000, 5711, you know, the $20,000 Submariner.
- [30:16]
A
Hey, it's Gabe. Openwork is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription. If you'd like to support the show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube. YouTube, where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking. You can find our channel@collective horology.com YouTube. And of course, you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands along with our Latest merch@colusive horology.com thanks for listening and for your support. Now back to the show.
- [30:53]
B
Not unique to Jorn per se, but what is unique to Jordan Jorn was that we saw a massive inflation very quickly in independent, in an independent watch brand that was really centered around Jorn and then that had a cascading effect, which raised the value, I would argue, of every other independent watch surrounding it. You know, the fact that you could. The fact that if you had a Grunefeld Principia, which is on its own a magnificent watch, you know, and that was trading for $15,000 above retail, is partially because of this effect that we saw around people imbuing more financial value into Jorn. At the same time, the Process for getting a Journe became way, way, way more complex. And the boutique and the brand decided that from a business standpoint, they needed to know their clients in a very different way. And I find this really interesting because we've spent the last few episodes talking about a lot of the challenges that we see in the way that ap, for example, treats their clients. Because there are parallels here around making sure that in their mind they want
- [31:57]
A
to vet the client boutique only you need an appointment. It can be weeks or months until you get the appointment. They want to get to know you. There's vetting.
- [32:05]
B
But there's a couple of key differences here, right? For ap, a lot of that is gatekeeping, a handful of references that everybody wants and sort of compelling them to potentially buy stuff they don't want to get there. Jorn Everybody wants everything. So while people have grails, of course, you know, someone might want a QP or someone might want a resonance or like what have you. They won't be disappointed with a chronometer, bluh. They won't be disappointed even with an elegant. They're just happy to be part of that collecting community and that group. And then that creates a couple of other things, right? That creates camaraderie among those that are in the group for a long time. For example, even well before this, this hyped up era of watches, there was the Journe Society, which was a group of collect that were earlier, early ish Jorn collectors that FP would make watches specifically for that group.
- [32:56]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [32:57]
B
You know, so like that, that, that's a thing that, that was there long before any of the hype. So Jordan Society watches, you know, skyrocket black label watches. So his watches that are just boutique, you know, specific to different boutiques skyrocket. And people who collect shorn begin to really, you know, spend significant amount of time together as Jorn collectors. Not necessarily as, as independent watch collectors, but Jorn collectors. And what I find really interesting about this pivot this period is that a lot of the time when you, when you meet with an independent watch collector, many will self identify as an independent watch collector. Yeah, Jorn collectors often will self identify as Jorn collectors, which I, which is very close to the way you might see someone talk about Patek Philippe, for example.
- [33:41]
A
Yeah, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I think a big entry point into Journe, specifically around Covid. And you're right, there are plenty of Journe collectors. The Journe Society is a great example. I totally Forgot about that. But I remember before COVID learning about the Journe Society and thinking how cool it was, we know a couple of people who. Who were. Who are or were members of the Journe Society. And so, of course, there are people who really are Journe collectors or independent watch collectors who also collect Journe. But during COVID I noticed something happened which was the vector for entry into Journe changed. Instead of being in that first chapter of Journe, it's like, I collect independent watches. I'm interested in independent watches, therefore I'm interested in Journe. It started to change. Where the vector into Journe was, I collect ap, I collect Patek, I collect Rolex. Now I'm going to get into independence, and I'm going to do that through Journe.
- [34:36]
B
Well, I think there's two reasons for it.
- [34:38]
A
The vector into Journe becomes about hype and speculation and value retention. And that becomes this entry point.
- [34:47]
B
We're missing a key element which is critical to the success of their business, which is a community angle.
- [34:52]
A
So I'm not saying that there isn't a community angle, but I think the vector for how you get into Journe starts to change or at least expand, and there becomes a new group of collectors who are into Journe, and their vector is, I'm into Jorn because I have the Rolex, I have the Patek Philippe, I have the ap. Oh, where else can I look? And Journe has a lot of the ingredients. One of the things I was really trying to understand around Covid in particular, and this hype and speculation around Jorn is why? What about it? You know, what, was there some social, psychological, or behavioral economics thing that drove it? Was it something that the brand did? Was it a hit product? Was it just money is cheap and it's sort of a lot of everything?
- [35:38]
B
Well, a lot of it is that the floor for Journe kept climbing. And I think if you are. I don't want to define people, but I think for a group, a group of collectors, if you're collecting Rolex and Patek and ap, there is one thing that is pretty consistently true about all three of those brands in the modern era of collecting, which is that from a financial standpoint, you know, some references notwithstanding, spending most of your money is safe.
- [36:05]
A
Yeah. Value retention.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah. And for Jorn, that suddenly created a floor in independent watches which had never been there before. So if you are a collector, if someone is a collector who. Not who wants to collect, but also wants that level of confidence from a financial standpoint, that comes from Both the growth of the brand and the market reality and dynamics that happened with the, with the growth, with the significant amount of purchase and resale of these watches, suddenly Jorn looks like not only a sure hypey and whatever, blah, blah, blah, important watches, whatever, also a financially safe decision. And that, that is a profound shift in the world of independence where none of that had ever existed.
- [36:46]
A
That's my point. This is like the new vector into Jorn is this value retention thing. And, and so I'm trying to understand like how did we get there? And I think my theory is like, there's a few pillars that really set Journe up uniquely to get there. Okay, first and foremost, as we said, the watches are extremely high quality, incredibly impressive. These watches are horologically unimpeachable. So the watchmaking bona fides are there. Number two, they are inherently and actually limited and scarce. Jorn has consistently produced about 800 to 1,000 watches a year. Before COVID during COVID and after Covid. This is not a brand that saw demand spike and then ramp production and get over at skis. The production and the availability is genuinely limited. Number three, they had already set up and laid this foundation for this boutique only sales model before COVID had ever happened. There weren't other independent watch brands, at least on the scale of Journe in terms of that boutique footprint that had that boutique footprint and model, similar to the way AP now distributes their watches. So they had these pieces in place. It's a great product, it's exclusive, the distribution is tightly controlled. And then finally, and I think this is really important and not something I've seen focused on elsewhere, it's aesthetically easy to understand and to get into. Now Journe manages to both have a very idiosyncratic design language like the. You look at a dial of a Journe watch and you take the logo off, you know, it's a Journe watch. However, however, it's not so idiosyncratic that it's inaccessible when we have no, it's
- [38:34]
B
highly referential to a very particular era,
- [38:37]
A
classical clock making, but it's still distinct to itself. It's not like an also ran Breguet design, you know what I mean? So when we had Tim Jackson on the show, you know, legendary independent watch dealer who's been in this business for over 20 years, one of the things he talked about with independent watches and the brands that tend to succeed over time is they're really not the ones that have these very crazy, idiosyncratic, wild Designs. You know, everyone who's into independent watchmaking will say, I love crazy, avant garde designs. I love the gonzo stuff, the stuff that's bonkers and wild. The truth is where people put their money and what they actually invest in most, generally speaking, not everyone, but generally speaking, painting with a broad brush. Here, some things that are, are classically designed, and Jorn has that as well. And these, these four pillars are the. Are the reason why this brand is in this unique position that almost no other independent brand is, or very few other watch brands, period, are in. That helps it take off in this way. It's not just free money. It's not just the Rolex collectors looking for the next thing. Journe deserves tremendous credit for all of these things. They deserve credit for the discipline to stick with their production. They deserve credit for the incredible watchmaking. They deserve credit for building a tightly controlled retail network. And they deserve credit for a beautiful, idiosyncratic, yet accessible design.
- [40:03]
B
Well, the tightly controlled retail network component, I think, is also really fascinating. And it demonstrates what a brand can do when it's got the wind at its back from a financial standpoint. Right? There are plenty of brands out there for whom demand exceeds supply. But not every brand has as deep a personal relationship with each individual collector. What's interesting about the way Jorn does things now is, is you will receive if you are a Journe collector. First you have to be welcomed into the fray, right? You have to spend time at the boutique. You have to make a case for yourself.
- [40:36]
A
Can I ask you a question? Because you know more about this than I do. Is that all? Is that true? I know Jorn famously says it's not about how much money you have. We want you to come to events, we want to get to know you. We want to truly. How many watch brands and dealers tell us that? Is that actually true?
- [40:51]
B
Yeah, it's true. It's true. I mean, it depends. And they focus very heavily on this through the community oriented component. I mean, look, they don't have watches in boutiques to sell. So they invite people to spend time with either carnet pieces or interesting artists or create or do lecture series or they do something to really make Journe boutiques a place that you want to go to and gather. Of course you're going because you want the watch, but it's also fun and you want to be part of that community and you get to know other collectors. And over time, through that demonstration, you'll start to receive information about what your allocations will look like and they are very clear with you that there is a carrot and a stick here. And if. If you sell your watch. If you sell the watch that you buy from them, you're out. So that creates automatic churn. And they will.
- [41:37]
A
Much easier for them to figure out who's selling their watch when they're only making several hundred a year.
- [41:41]
B
Totally. And they'll do that quite clearly. It's, you know, and it's different than ap, in my mind, who's making, you know, tens of thousands of watches a year, and they're much more serially produced. You know, it's a different kind of. It's. And also ap, It's a little disingenuous because they're gonna. If they make you buy a thing to get the thing that you want and then are mad at you for liquidating what you were forced to sell to buy.
- [42:03]
A
That was a great point.
- [42:04]
B
You know, it's like a little. A little absurd. Whereas if you're talking about Jorn, how
- [42:09]
A
dare you sell those five watches we force fed you for that Royal Oak.
- [42:13]
B
Exactly. Versus Jorn, where, you know, presumably, if you're there, you're there for the love of Jorn. And, you know, whatever your first allocation is, is your first allocation. And presumably you've worked with the salespersons. They don't try to allocate you something which you cannot possibly afford. You know what I mean? And by the way, they don't want that either, because the last thing they want is that the thing on your personal balance sheet that's tipping you, you know, into. Into insolvency is their watch, because that
- [42:37]
A
means it's the first thing to go.
- [42:38]
B
Exactly. So, you know, my guess is, like, part of the reason I want to know you is, like, well, let's figure this out. You know, like, maybe you're a 25,000, $30,000 collector now. Maybe you'll be a $200,000 watch collector in 10 years. We'll work our way up to that. That. And then other folks might start. And they are a $20,000 watch collector to get, or $200,000 watch collector to get started. You know, people start at different places, different brands, but they. They really do know you and your watches. And I think that that creates this interesting social pressure too, because now you're not just. It's not just between you and the boutique owner or rep or whatever. Sorry, boutique director.
- [43:17]
A
Mm.
- [43:18]
B
It's between you, the boutique director, and everyone else in the club who's gonna know that you got kicked out.
- [43:23]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [43:24]
B
Right. Because, like, if Gabe says, I wanna start collecting, you go to all the events and you spend all the time.
- [43:29]
A
What happened to Gabe?
- [43:30]
B
Gabe sold his. Gabe sold his Chronometer bluff.
- [43:33]
A
Yeah. No wonder I got kicked out of the AP house.
- [43:35]
B
Exactly. Well, no, that was for drunken behavior. But in all seriousness, jokes aside, it's a really interesting thing because you could say, well, wouldn't every brand do this? It's like, well, of course. Of course they'd love to, but they can't. Yeah, they don't have. They either don't have the lower production, they don't have the demand, they don't have the brand like you could find, but. But Jordan's got all of that.
- [43:53]
A
Yeah.
- [43:54]
B
And for people for whom it's truly
- [43:56]
A
lightning in a bottle. It is.
- [43:57]
B
And for. And for people for whom F.P. journe is their, you know, pinnacle of collecting and watchmaking, the social incentive to be a good, you know, a good citizen of that group is very strong. Very strong.
- [44:13]
A
Okay, but do you think they're creating. I have two questions for you. One is, do you think they're creating incentives for people who play the game versus people who, you know, really want the watches? So, again, if. If one of your vectors.
- [44:25]
B
I think those two. Those two circles overlap very heavily.
- [44:28]
A
Well, no, let me. Let me. Let me tell you what I mean.
- [44:30]
B
Sure.
- [44:31]
A
If we buy the argument that one vector into Journe, you know, I'm not saying it's the majority of the people who get into the brand, but one vector into Journe is this world of people who are coming from other hype watches, Rolex, ap, Patek Philippe, into Journe. Well, these people know how to play the game. They've befriended the sales associates. They've played the allocation game. They've gone to the events and done all of that sort of stuff. These are people who are good at playing the hype watch game. That's very different than someone who's a collector, you know, who approaches it from, like, I'm genuinely horologically interested in how Jorn Hels, as has, you know, approach resonance or constant force or Tourbillons or whatever it might be. And, like, I don't want to go to the cocktail hour every Friday. I don't want to grovel before the sales associate. I don't want to be forced to fill out a wish list. Is this creating incentives for people who play the game versus people who, you know, we might say, somehow have more pure intentions or just want the watch? Maybe just as much, maybe for different reasons. But don't want to play the game.
- [45:43]
B
Let's say that you had never decided to retire from advertising and you were still in that industry.
- [45:47]
A
Oh, I retired from, I retired.
- [45:49]
B
Okay, fine. If you weren't about to be imminently laid off from your job in advertising and decided to come do this, and you decided like, you really, like, you love, you love fantastic creative design. You wanted to stay in your, in your lane on the creative side of advertising, but you hate networking. You think it's nonsense that you have to take people out for informational coffees. You hate it. And then you wonder why you don't get any job offers. I'm like, I get what you're saying, and I understand the mentality of something.
- [46:15]
A
You really describe me to a T.
- [46:17]
B
But I mean, seriously, like, I get what, I get what you're saying, right? What you're saying is like, well, what if I don't want to do that? What if I'm just an honest earn, like an earnest person who watch collecting is not my entire, you know, like, doesn't represent an outsized portion of my identity or my social life, and I got other stuff to do and I just don't want to do that. Journe's answer to that may very well be be, then we're not the brand for you.
- [46:40]
A
Well, okay, but let me devil's advocate. Your devil's advocate, which is presumably the reason Jorn is doing this is because they want, they do want to find clients who have, like, pure intentions. You know, like the old reality TV saying, like, they're doing it for the right reasons.
- [46:57]
B
And, well, sort of they're doing it also to preserve the value of their market.
- [47:02]
A
The clients are doing it for the right reasons is my, like, they're looking for clients who are doing it for the right reasons. What a great reality show meme. In any event, aren't they actually just creating incentives for people who play the game, not people who have.
- [47:17]
B
Well, I think because it's like, normally,
- [47:19]
A
I mean, it's a crude, it's a very crude barometer for like, I think the stated reason makes a ton of sense. We want to find collectors with good intentions. I don't think there's any perfect way to do it, but I think what they're rewarding instead is people who are savvy at playing the game game or have the time to play.
- [47:37]
B
So I, I, I, I, I will quibble with you about, in this context, calling it playing the game. And the reason why I quibble with that is this is just how they sell like they've been holding salons and like getting to know their clients and all of this. Well, before their watches were worth what they're worth.
- [47:53]
A
Now just imagine a couch with an opium pipe and I mean, maybe let's
- [47:58]
B
roll it back to the 90s and see what happens or whatever. But in all seriousness, like, and I mean, look like in full transparency, I've had good experiences and I've had, you know, experiences with Jordan personally.
- [48:10]
A
Well, I have another question for you,
- [48:11]
B
but that none of that changes my respect for how they. They approach this particular business. And the main reason that I had some friction with them was because I pushed back on some of the feedback that I got from them around how they wanted me to buy and, you know, buy watch.
- [48:31]
A
Okay. Yeah. Well, this is my second question. This is my. I have.
- [48:33]
B
And that's me as a collector.
- [48:34]
A
I'm allowed a follow up.
- [48:36]
B
Yeah.
- [48:36]
A
When we used to do. They used to do. I'm sure they still do a weekly Q and A with Mark Zuckerberg at. At Facebook.
- [48:42]
B
Yeah.
- [48:43]
A
You know, anyone could. Could ask him a question in, in person. So you'd go to. On Friday afternoons this Q and A, you could ask him a question. People started demanding that. That they be allowed follow ups because they weren't satisfied with the extent to which their question was answered. So I'm demanding a follow up. My follow up is that you bought two watches from Jorn. Why didn't you buy a third or a fourth or a fifth? What happened?
- [49:09]
B
I would have. I was on the list for one.
- [49:12]
A
Ooh, what were you on the list for?
- [49:13]
B
I was on the list for one of the sport pieces, which is very cool.
- [49:17]
A
Those are cool.
- [49:17]
B
And one of the titanium one or aluminum ones. Excuse me. Look, without getting into like the details of that, because whatever, ultimately I decided to your point, like, Journe is a watchmaker I admire. It's not the only watchmaker I admire. I'd have to take my budget for watches which is not remotely as large as, you know, is really required to be a serious Journe collector and dedicated entirely to Jorn. And that's not something that I wanted to do for my collecting. Like, I couldn't, you know, I wouldn't have been able to commit to like the long term push. And some of the pieces that I aspired to for Jorn were outside of my means.
- [49:58]
A
And you'd experience the chronometer Bleu and the elegant. And those were the ones that were more in your.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah, I mean, like the watches that I really Admire from the brand that I would like to wear were watches I couldn't afford. You know, like the perpetual calendar, which is a magnificently cool watch. And there's just other things in the watch world I want to see.
- [50:16]
A
Let's say there were watches that were within your means. Would you have played the game?
- [50:20]
B
I think it depends at what era in my collecting we're talking about. At the era in which I would have had access to them. Yeah, yeah, probably, you know, because I don't think it's a game in that instance. Like. And the reason why I say that.
- [50:31]
A
Are you accusing me of being cynical and jaded?
- [50:33]
B
I know it's bizarre because, like, of all the things that I should be
- [50:36]
A
sitting here being cynical about is Kevin, but not me.
- [50:39]
B
But in all honesty, like, I don't think it's cynical. I think what they're really trying to do, honestly, is saying if this is what you think is great, then you must be a part of it in order to get. Get it. And it's up to you, the collector, to determine if you think that's a game or BS or whatever, or a legitimate community that you want to be a part of.
- [51:03]
A
So it's. It's self selecting for sure. That's. That's one point when we've talked a lot about this with ap, and by
- [51:08]
B
the way, I'm not advocating for that. Like, I don't think that, like, every brand should do this or that. That's the way to sell like this for Jorn, particularly in all of the opportunity and backwind that they've got.
- [51:21]
A
It works. It works now. And this is different from how they sold before.
- [51:25]
B
Well, it works, it works. It works at 100% capacity now.
- [51:29]
A
Yeah.
- [51:30]
B
15 years ago it worked too, just at a much lower capacity.
- [51:34]
A
Yeah, but.
- [51:34]
B
And there was much less of a
- [51:35]
A
stick because, Guy, you just told me you walked into a Journe boutique in 2016 and bought a watch.
- [51:40]
B
And I bought an available watch. If I had wanted a tourbillon or if I had wanted a resonance, I probably would have.
- [51:46]
A
You want a chronometer bleu today, you got to play the game now. So this is, this is my question. One of the things that comes up when We've talked about AP's allocation model and the, you know, making the appointment at the AP house and the boutique and so on and so forth, we got a lot of comments on YouTube of people saying this is going to backfire on them because it's only a matter of time before the wind is out of the sails, the music stops, or whatever you want to say, and the demand for this brand softens, and then they've alienated a ton of people with these shenanigans.
- [52:17]
B
Yep.
- [52:18]
A
So why doesn't that same logic apply here to Jorn?
- [52:22]
B
Because I would argue that FP Journe is significantly more creative and inventive than a corporate watchmaker like Audemars Piguet and
- [52:31]
A
Jorn makes, will still make 800 to 1,000 watches a year.
- [52:36]
B
Yes, they're rate limited, but I really do think it boils down to. To creativity. I mean, look, say what you will about, like, the high end of ap, well, which are, you know, in many cases, beautiful watches. And when we look at some of their experimental stuff, it's really cool. But the bottom line is when you compare that to some of the innovations, like what we've seen, for example, from the Francis Ford Coppola, you know, like the hand piece, for example, like, this is just one of many inventions that has come out of fpjoy.
- [53:05]
A
I think the auction record, the prototype for the most expensive wristwatch ever sold, I don't know, over $10 million.
- [53:11]
B
That one. I don't know. You'd have to check that one. But my point being, part of the reason why people want to be part of this club is because of the incredibly creative and inventive nature of the maison and the man ap isn't that. I mean, look at what their greatest innovation was this year. It was like a jump hour. And I mean, I'm sure there's somebody who's gonna be like, sure there's not the greatest innovation? Look at all the incredibly complicated innovation. No, but from a business, from a business standpoint, that's their big push to, like, bring in more people, you know, and my point is, it's certainly the
- [53:46]
A
most arresting watch they've released this year.
- [53:49]
B
And again, like, I'm not doing this to take a potshot at ap. I'm merely making a point, which is AP is acting like a business. Journe is acting like an artist, and the two are very, very, very different. I think people, you know, whether they think of it like this way or not, Jorn lives off of patronage for a group of several thousand folks that are in the club that buy from him. AP is a business, and they're two very different things. And I think that is a lot of it. And yes, there's the money part and the value part and all of that, that bolsters it, but fundamentally, I think that's the difference. It's Much more like old school way of thinking about supporting. Supporting quote unquote, an artist.
- [54:37]
A
Yeah. And I think the proof is in the pudding. Look, the fact is we're out of the COVID watch bubble. We all know that. And Journe values have come down from their, from their peak at the top of that Covid watch bubble. But they've reset at a new high.
- [54:53]
B
Yeah.
- [54:54]
A
So if we talk about the air, you know the first era, that long 20 year stretch of the brand ending in about 2019 before, before COVID the value retention of Jorn watches has reset several clicks above where it was in 2019. And that's not true for a lot of watch brands. We're seeing a lot of things revert to the mean and we're seeing a lot of brands that were relatively strong during COVID They made number of mistakes Jorn didn't make, like ultimately overproducing. You know, they tried to scale to meet this demand that was ephemeral. And then they and their retailers are left with watches they can't sell. I was talking to another dealer yesterday about a couple of brands that were darlings during the COVID era. They had some hit products. They had watches everyone wanted and now they're. The dealers are just awash in these things and they don't sell because the brand made the mist. Those brands made the mistake of over overproduction and flooding the markets just when the, the demand was going away. Jorn didn't do that. No. And you know this gets to Jordan can't do that. So I mean you're right. Jorn's. The quality is there, the inventiveness is there. But you know, it's truly rate limited. It's truly limited. They maintain tight control the retail network. They're not awash in, in watches and they've reset at, at a, at a new normal for them. And the proof is in the pudding. The demand remains there for, for the brand which is, is, which is pretty cool.
- [56:30]
B
Yeah. And I mean you know so much of that personality really does come through. I mean even on the, even on the watch itself. You, you remember what it says on, on, on the dial.
- [56:40]
A
It's so good old Latin invented at at fecket which means invented and made.
- [56:46]
B
Right. I, I made, I, I invented it and I made it.
- [56:49]
A
Yeah.
- [56:49]
B
And I think, I think that right there like so much of that.
- [56:54]
A
Mr. Schroeder would be proud if you the listeners. That was our seventh grade Latin teacher, Kaecalius Espata.
- [57:00]
B
But my point is taking away everyone's hot takes and opinions and the rest of it. That's the difference between him and an ap. That's the difference between him in a paddock or whatever. Because if you really, really like the creator, you want to be, be in the creator's house.
- [57:24]
A
Yeah, I think it's very easy. Look, the cynic in me looks at Jorn because I've, I've never been into Jordan. Like, I've always admired the watches, but it's never spoken to me personally or I've never felt personally compelled to, to own one. There are a lot of brands that I look at and that I admire, but I'm not really so interested in owning. Like a more conventional example would be a Grand Seiko. I, I have the highest regard for Grand Seiko's products. I really do. This is not for me. It's not my, not my vibe. Jordan falls into that, into that wheelhouse. And so, you know, I just never really spent as much time researching and thinking about Jordan as I did in the, in preparation for this. You clearly know way more about the brand and have much more firsthand knowledge, of course, as well. But you know, I went into this really about, you know, thinking about like this financialization of Journe and the success of Jorn, really based on speculation, greater fool theory and value retention, all that. And I actually came away not just from this discussion, but even just from the research being like, oh my God, this is an incredibly well run business.
- [58:32]
B
Yeah.
- [58:33]
A
You know, the products are astounding. The discipline of how the business is run is unheard of and they've managed to make products that are not just astounding, but accessible. You know, you look again, you look at a Journe and you just know it's a beautiful watch. And it really, you know, as we've said about some other brands that have succeeded to this extent, Jorn really is a case study of one. It's a singular business and really just remarkable. So you can take all the hype away, you can take all the annoying games away, you can take all the annoying, you know, Richard Mille collectors who now want to join away, and you just look at really what's there and it's remarkably impressive. It had the ingredients to get there that so many other brands would love to have.
- [59:22]
B
Couldn't agree more. All right, thank you, Mr. Journe.
- [59:25]
A
Thank you, Mr. Journe. And thank you for listening. Openwork is of course a production of collective horology. You can find us online@collectiveherology.com where you can also learn about an RSVP table, our open house event. You can also get in touch with us and to do that just email podcastollectivephorology.com.
- [60:00]
B
I just bought it. Just bought it.