The Rise & Retreat of Jaeger‑LeCoultre – Can Going Independent Save the Brand? – Episode 70

Summary

Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry – Episode 70

The Rise & Retreat of Jaeger‑LeCoultre – Can Going Independent Save the Brand?
March 2, 2026
Hosts: Asher Rapkin & Gabe Reilly (Collective Horology)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Openwork takes a deep dive into the history, decline, and possible future of Jaeger-LeCoultre (JLC), once the crown jewel of the Richemont Group’s watch portfolio. Hosts Asher Rapkin and Gabe Reilly explore whether rumored moves towards independence (potentially under current CEO Jerome Lambert or a Lambert-led consortium) could rejuvenate the brand. Along the way, they dissect JLC’s storied past, market missteps, Richemont’s internal brand dynamics, and the broader forces shaping modern watchmaking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. JLC’s Historical Importance and Industry Role

[01:20–03:50]

• JLC is known as the “watchmaker’s watchmaker,” the only movement supplier to the entire “Holy Trinity” (Patek, Audemars Piguet, Vacheron).
• Until the early 2000s, JLC was Richemont’s top-selling watch brand, ahead of IWC, Vacheron, and Lange.
• JLC has declined in both sales and industry standing—from #10 in global sales (2018) to #16 (2024); unit production down to ~79,000 per year.
• Quote [01:45, Gabe]: “They have the distinction...they’re the only movement supplier to have supplied all three of the Holy Trinity.”

2. From Industry Titan to Industry Afterthought

[04:45–08:50]

• Asher shares his early passion for JLC, referencing the value and craftsmanship of his first fine watch, the Master Ultra Thin Dual Time (~$7,500, much less than today’s JLC entry points).
• Both hosts lament the brand’s current stagnation:
  • Poor fit of calibers in recent models (e.g., the Polaris QP’s small movement in a large case).
  • Focus shifting from risk-taking innovation towards “playing it safe.”
• Memorable Boutique Moment [06:17]:
  • Asher: “...I remarked to the sales associate...‘Boy, that’s a really big movement spacer in there. What’s the deal?’...’Oh, well, that’s to make it waterproof.’...I was like, ‘So you’re telling me the movement spacer is the gasket?’"
• Decisions seemingly driven by corporate cost-saving rather than watchmaking integrity.

3. The Richemont Effect: Brand Cannibalization & Lost Identity

[08:52–13:00]

• JLC’s creative direction reportedly limited by internal Richemont hierarchy—unable to threaten the lanes of Vacheron (luxury glamour) and Lange (no-holds-barred haute horology).
• Historical parallel: under Gunter Blumlein (late ’70s–early 2000s), JLC thrived via innovation (e.g., reviving and complicating the Reverso).
• Quote [12:56, Asher]: “I actually think that…they think they have created a monster in the Reverso. And I don’t think they have as much of a monster there as, say, AP does with the Royal Oak.”

4. The Reverso and Cultural Relevance

[13:26–16:17]

• The Reverso is JLC’s best-known icon, though not as commercially dominant as AP’s Royal Oak.
• JLC’s watches enjoyed moments of pop culture visibility—e.g., Bruce Wayne/Batman, Dr. Strange.
• Recent marketing moves (e.g., appointing Lenny Kravitz as ambassador) feel unfocused and out of touch.
• Quote [15:00, Gabe]: “When you’re signing Lenny Kravitz as your cultural ambassador in the 2020s, like, you’ve lost the plot.”
• The “watchmaker’s watchmaker” reputation speaks to enthusiasts, but not the broader luxury consumer.

5. Richemont’s Brand Segmentation: The Sidelining of JLC

[17:44–21:51]

• Vacheron positioned as upscale “nightlife” luxury (“one of not many”).
• Lange is “old money” and absolute haute horology.
• JLC, once a value-driven alternative between Rolex and Patek, has been nudged upward in price with no clear identity or corresponding freedom to express itself at higher tiers.
• Quote [20:15, Gabe]: “Vacheron is like high luxury...Vacheron is their peak luxury experience...Lange doesn’t position itself around lug (sic) luxury...Lange is haute horology.”

6. The Value Trap & The New Yorker Parallel

[21:51–23:27]

• JLC’s position likened to The New Yorker in the Conde Nast portfolio—historic, full of quality, but neglected and directionless.
• Vacheron is compared to Wired as a sub-brand that has found new direction and surpassed JLC in relevance and success.
• Quote [22:44, Asher]: “...the New Yorker stands on the shoulders of what it was, as JLC does today, but doesn’t have a whole lot of vision about where it’s going.”

7. What If JLC Goes Independent? Parallel Cases & Roadmaps

[24:16–28:33]

• Considering the fate of brands like Universal Genève (Breitling acquisition/revival) and Girard Perregaux (indie reboot):
  • Universal Genève is an empty vessel but JLC is a living, distributed global brand—comparison is limited.
  • JLC already has strong product breadth but struggles with focus and emotional resonance.
• Could JLC, set free, retake its former seat among the industry’s upper tiers?
• Corporate politics may have deliberately “smothered” JLC to make way for Lange and Vacheron.
• Quote [28:10, Asher]: “You couldn’t have made Vacheron and Lange as successful as they were without smothering JLC.”

8. Pathways Forward: Upmarket or Back to the Knitting?

[28:33–34:32]

• The “obvious” move is luxury escalation—compete head-on with Lange and Vacheron; JLC has the legacy and capability.
• Alternative: revive its historic sweet spot ($10–$20k range), offering “real” watchmaking with wider appeal.
• The $10–$20k segment once belonged to brands like JLC and smaller independents; many have since left that lane.
• However, mere “value” isn’t a winning hook, as the Master Ultra Thin lacks true identity compared to Lange’s Saxonia Thin.
• Quote [30:32, Gabe]: “If there’s any brand that could move into that [mid-tier], it could be [JLC]...the opportunity for goodwill there is exceptionally large.”
• The GeoPhysic seen as a rare recent success—a blend of JLC’s best traits, not slavishly retro and genuinely differentiated.

9. Product Strategy: Icons vs. “Greatest Hits”

[34:32–36:00]

• JLC’s catalog includes strong icons (Reverso, Master, Atmos, alarms), yet recent lines lack excitement.
• Hosts recommend slimming product lines (especially Master Control, Rendezvous), possibly retiring the Polaris, and refocusing on unique strengths.
• The alarm watches (e.g., Memovox) are beloved cult classics and could play a key revival role.

10. Scenarios for Independence

[36:09–41:08]

• Option 1: High-horology move (become the next Urban Jurgensen—ultra-refined, up-market).
• Option 2: Recapture affordable fine watchmaking as their hallmark—“the space between mainstream brands and Patek/Lange/Vacheron.”
• Option 3: Embrace the “fashion” play—leveraging the Reverso’s iconic rectangular form, riding the trend towards smaller, shaped watches.
  • Here, JLC’s constraints inside Richemont are apparent—they cannot go full “Cartier” (king of jewelry watches).
• Richemont’s business is dominated by jewelry (Cartier, Van Cleef), with watches now a smaller proportion of group revenue.

11. What Needs to Change?

[41:08–43:09]

• JLC’s creative paralysis is both self-inflicted and due to corporate shackling.
• To thrive, JLC must have:
  • New leadership willing to assert vision.
  • Freedom from group politics.
  • A distinct, authentic horological point of view that isn’t derivative of Richemont’s other brands or Cartier.
• Quote [42:44, Asher]: “...if we believe that new leadership, a new permission structure...can allow them to maybe once again spread their wings and have a horological point of view, then I am—I’m here for it.”

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Notable Quotes

• Asher ([28:10]): "You couldn't have made Vacheron and Lange as successful as they were without smothering JLC."
• Gabe ([15:00]): "When you're signing Lenny Kravitz as your cultural ambassador in the 2020s, like, you've lost the plot."
• Asher ([22:44]): "The New Yorker stands on the shoulders of what it was, as JLC does today, but doesn't have a whole lot of vision about where it's going."
• Gabe ([30:32]): "If there's any brand that could move into that, right?...the opportunity for goodwill there is exceptionally large."
• Asher ([41:08]): "Breaking off from [Richemont] will give them the flexibility to look at the products that ultimately define themselves as opposed to things that rhyme with the history of JLC."

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Key Timestamps

• 01:20–03:50: JLC as Richemont’s historic sales leader and industry supplier
• 06:13–06:23: Asher’s memorable boutique anecdote about movement fit
• 08:52–11:16: The Blumlein renaissance and peak Reverso innovation
• 17:44–21:51: Richemont's segmentation and brand hierarchy
• 24:16–28:33: Should JLC follow examples like Universal Genève and GP?
• 28:33–34:32: JLC’s value proposition—upmarket vs. middle market
• 36:09–41:08: Three scenarios for an independent JLC
• 42:44–43:09: What is required for true JLC revival

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Episode Tone

Candid, insightful, and at times satirical (“the thinking man’s watch”), the hosts combine industry expertise and enthusiasm for horology with critical analysis. They balance reverence for JLC’s past with unflinching critique of its present and realistic hopes for its future.

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Summary Takeaways

• JLC’s struggles are rooted as much in Richemont group politics and priorities as in internal mismanagement.
• The brand has lost clear identity—but has unrivaled resources (heritage, catalog, technical depth) to stage a comeback.
• An independent JLC with visionary leadership could reassert itself as a powerhouse—either by becoming a leader in modern fine watchmaking, or by reclaiming the mid-luxury, value-for-craftsmanship lane.
• Any successful revival will require differentiated direction, a pruning of safe but uninspired product lines, and a return to the creativity and risk-taking that previously defined JLC.

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For listeners:
If you've missed the episode but want a thorough sense of how Jaeger-LeCoultre could regain its former glory—and how internal industry politics shape the fate of storied brands—this episode is a must-read (or listen).

Transcript

[Asher Ravkin]

You couldn't have made Vacheron and Lange as successful as they were without smothering jlc.

[Gabe Riley]

This is openwork, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co founder of Collective.

[Asher Ravkin]

I'm Asher Ravkin, co founder of Collective. Collective Horology is an independent watch retailer based in Southern California. We carry a wide range of independent brands, including Czapek, Sartori, Biard, Renault, Tixie A, and more. To learn more about us and check out our available inventory. Inventory, visit collective horology.com we had an interesting conversation about watches changing hands a little while ago and one brand in Brands changing hands. What'd I say?

[Gabe Riley]

Watches changing hands.

[Asher Ravkin]

Suppose technically the watches are changing hands.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, well, we have plenty of those conversations too.

[Asher Ravkin]

Indeed. And the brand that really stuck with you was Jaeger LeCoultre. JLC.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, it's funny. We talked a couple of episodes ago and today it's February 19th when we're recording this. Let's just say that it's about a week and a half before the episode will actually air. And a couple episodes ago, we were talking about this rumored acquisition or this rumored sale of jlc potentially to Jerome Lambert, the current CEO of the brand, former CEO of the Richemont Group. Overall. And there's been.

[Asher Ravkin]

Or to a consortium.

[Gabe Riley]

There's a consortium led by him. Yeah, there's been some reporting, I think originally by Ms. Tweed, that this is maybe in discussion or in the works. And we talked about it and, you know, it got me thinking, like, JLC is not a brand I, I knew really a ton about or it was ever really all that interested in. It's just, it's not, it's not my lane of, of collecting. I kind of more associate them with dress watches and complicated watch ratings.

[Asher Ravkin]

They were my first, like, fine watch that I bought.

[Gabe Riley]

Well, I want to talk to you about that because it's, it's just not a brand I was super familiar with. And I sort of was like, well, I need to research JLC a little bit. Like, I realized that it was this huge blind spot for me in, not just from an industry standpoint, but just as a collector and in a watch enthusiast. Because certainly I know it's a brand that looms large and has a long and storied history. It goes back to the 1800s. They've literally developed thousand. Over a thousand calibers.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah.

[Gabe Riley]

Supplier to, you know, many brands. The only, you know, they have the distinction. They're called the watchmakers. Watchmaker because they're the only movement supplier to have supplied all three of the holy Trinity. So this is a brand that has, and we'll talk about it, has a ton of deep history, is really impressive. It's also a brand, you know, that doesn't just loom large in the mind of enthusiasts, but really loomed large in the industry itself. So at one point, when JLC joined the Richemont Group along with iwc, they had been in a separate group before that with jlc, IWC and Lange as well, and they joined Richemont. So in the early 2000s, after joining the Richemont Group, JLC was the number one watch brand by sales in the Richemont Group. Bigger in sales than iwc, than Vacheron, than Lange. You know, a lot of the brands we think of today and the brands that really do dominate sales from a, from a revenue standpoint. And it was a top 10 watch brand overall by sales in the time that Morgan Stanley has been reporting this. So from 2018 to now, JLC has slipped from number 10 in the industry by overall sales down to about number 16 as of the latest reporting. So the more I learned about it, the more I was just extremely impressed. And then when I think about where the brand is today, it is a far cry from where it was at its, at the height of its powers.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah, I mean, my initial attraction to it, I, you know, as a collector, this was over 10 years ago. I was ready to start moving out of like mainstream pieces. Jlc, you know, I knew about, for all the reasons that you just went through. And I bought a master ultra thin dual. Time this was around and then this was, this was over. Yeah, I guess this was over 10 years ago. And that watch was, was like 7,500 bucks. So it was expensive, but it wasn't, wasn't anywhere near the average price point of JLC today. And I bought it at a Tourno, you know, I didn't. There was no jlc. I bought it while I was traveling for work. There was no JLC boutique in the town I was in. And I loved that watch. I wore it with great pride for a long time because one of the things that people talk about when they talk about these 12,000 or 1200 calibers rather. And you know, the watchmaker's watchmaker was always this idea that, you know, when JLC made a watch, the caliber fit the watch, which I think is really cool. You know, it's not, it's.

[Gabe Riley]

We've talked about that criticism many times.

[Asher Ravkin]

And you know, I'VE had challenges with a lot of JLC product recently, because in my mind, JLC is a manufacturer that has permission to do anything and chose to do very little. And I found that very frustrating, given the history of that brand and what I wanted to see from them. And I remember a few years ago, more recently, like two or three years ago, maybe it's four years ago now, JLC announced a complicated Polaris. And I'll preface by saying, I like the Polaris. I think it's a. I think it's a very comfortable watch.

[Gabe Riley]

So this is their answer to kind of the sports watch category. Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

And it's based off of a historical reference, etcetera, and so forth. And, you know, it's. I find it to be a very serviceable watch. When it launched, it was like 7900 bucks or something like that. It was quite reasonable. Now It's. It's over 10K. But they released a QP. And I thought it was actually pretty cool because at the time it came out, it was high 20s. It was like 29,000 bucks. I was thinking, okay, like, for a perpetual calendar, like, this is pretty great. They have a long history of making very attractive perpetual calendars. A very attractive pricing. You know, the doctor Strange perpetual calendar. Very cool watch. Maybe not risky, but cool. And anyway, I remember going to the boutique, and I went to the boutique, and the first thing I noticed in that watch was that the caliber was eensy weensy inside of this case. And I remarked to the sales associate, and I was like, you know, wow. Boy, that's a. That's a really big movement spacer in there. I mean, that, you know, like, what's the deal with that? Is there something I don't know or can you help me understand?

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, like, maybe it has something to do with case construction, and there's a reason for it.

[Asher Ravkin]

Totally. And without missing a beat, he looked at me and he said, oh, well, that's. That. That's to make it waterproof.

[Gabe Riley]

See, I told you.

[Asher Ravkin]

Exactly. I was like, I'm sorry. So you're telling me the movement spacer is the gasket? And he went, yes. Okay. The movement spacer is not the gasket, number one. Number two, shocking.

[Gabe Riley]

You went to a watch boutique and someone didn't know what they were talking?

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah, I was annoyed. I was asking. I can. I can assure you of that. But. But the bigger point to me is I was like, this exemplifies so much of what frustrates me about modern jlc.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, there's a lot in there.

[Asher Ravkin]

You know, forget about the, the sales associate for a moment. Maybe he was having a bad day, whatever. But like the movement didn't fit that watch. And to me that's the bigger. How did that get out the door? And I could see the conversations in a corporate side where they're like, oh, you know, we can make this more affordable. If we don't develop a new caliber that's specific to this watch. We can reuse the one that we have from this other watch and put it in this.

[Gabe Riley]

Someone who's interested in a Polaris is less interested in fine watchmaking than someone who wants like a, you know, master, master control, QP kind of thing.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, but, but the, but the point is it, that's the fact of it. And when you roll back the clock and you start looking at the masterpieces that JLC has launched and the risks, the risks that JLC took over the various years, there's an incredible treasure trove there. But more importantly, what it does is it has over 100 years plus of reputation, of quality, of ingenuity, of creativity that allows you to, you know, springboard. Which is why, if I'm being completely candid with you, the thing that makes me excited about the potential of a JLC freed from Richemont is. And who knows, because JLC would still be a big company and still be hundreds of people. You know, certain certainly is what that would look like if we, you know, take the sort of, you know, Patrick Pernod model of what we saw with GP and un, we apply it to JLC and we say, okay, you're free of the shackles of like corporate check ins and moving things around in Google Docs. Now you live or die by the sword. What are you going to do? And I find that really exciting because every time watches and wonders comes around, I walk by the JLC booth and I want.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, we always look for that.

[Asher Ravkin]

I want to be psyched. And this isn't to dismiss the fine watchmaking or the metier dart or the things that are in there.

[Gabe Riley]

It's still impressive like when I was

[Asher Ravkin]

prepping, but it doesn't grab me.

[Gabe Riley]

Sure. When I was prepping for this episode and when we were working in the last episode where we touched on jlc, I remember I went to their press room and I'm going through their novelties. Yeah, there's a lot of extremely impressive watchmaking.

[Asher Ravkin]

Absolutely.

[Gabe Riley]

To art and things that happen at JLC that don't see the light of day, that no one's paying attention to which I find. And I think part of that is, look, they're stuck in Richemont Group, and they're very much managed relative to Lange and Vacheron. And those brands need to have a lane, need to be known for things. And so. So I think you're right. Being unshackled would allow them maybe to spread their wings a little bit more, put a little bit more attention on the fine watchmaking. But we do know what it would look like if JLC was unshackled and was. Was run under a leader who has a very clear direction for the brand. Because that's what happened in the 1980s. And I think it was about 1978 when Jaeger was acquired by the Video Group, which was apparently a German automotive conglomerate, and they acquired jlc, actually from Favelubra. JLC and Fava Lubra were sister brands. They acquired JLC and IWC and built this group. And who ran this watchmaking group of iwc, JLC and eventually Longa? It was Gunter Blumlein. Yep. A legendary CEO. A visionary CEO. The guy who kind of set the template for the modern luxury watch group.

[Asher Ravkin]

Absolutely.

[Gabe Riley]

And he led JLC through its. Its renaissance. So, you know, most people think about JLC as being identified with the Reverso. Well, the Reverso was a watch that was out of production for decades. The Reverso was brought back under Bloom line and in 19. In the 80s and then in the 90s was when they started introducing complications to the Reverso. So 1991 is when we got the first complicated Reverso. And from there, amazing things have been done with. With the. With the Reverso. And the Reverso is now kind of known for its complications. And. And this is a. What these are watches. These complicated Reversos were winning awards at the GPHG in the early 2000s. I mean, this is a brand that was on top. Not just from a sales perspective did this brand dominate the Richemont Group portfolio. But from a watchmaking and industry laurel standpoint, it was at the. At the height of its powers.

[Asher Ravkin]

Oh, a young Max Booster was a. Was working on product there.

[Gabe Riley]

Great point. And I think a lot of people today might scratch their head and. And be like, Max Booster worked at jlc. But in the context of the time, it certainly.

[Asher Ravkin]

That was the place to be.

[Gabe Riley]

That was the place to be. And it would. It certainly makes sense that a visionary talent would come out of that. That organization. And so JLC does have a moment in its History where it was removed from a situation that maybe wasn't the best for it, put in the hands of a leader who had a vision for the brand and differentiated it. And, yeah, it was managed alongside IWC and ultimately Lange, but still allowed to spread its wings. And I think a lot of people sort of trace the decline of JLC to Gunter Blumlein's death. He died in the early 2000s, right around the turn of. The turn of the century, and, you know, not soon thereafter. It was really in this period from maybe the 2010s to where we are now, where JLC started to begin this decline in relevance and in commercial success. So, yeah, they're doing less revenue than they have. We saw an estimate, I think it was from Morgan Stanley, that showed that they went from probably at their height of producing about 100,000 units a year to 79,000 units last year. The average price point has gone up to your point, but the revenue hasn't grown with it. So a lot of brands will push price point up. Lower volume. We've talked about how AP has managed to do this. We've talked about how Rolex has managed to lower volume but increase market share. Well, that bet hasn't worked for jlc. And I think a lot of it is, like, you know, they haven't been allowed to spread their wings. So when you make the point of, like, it might be nice to see them unconstrained. I think you're right. And history has an analog there.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah. And look, the other. The other thing I'll say about this before we, you know, we look back a little bit more is I actually think that. That they've, you know, they think they have created a monster in the Reverso. And I don't think that they have as much of a monster there as, say, AP does with the Royal Oak.

[Gabe Riley]

No, no.

[Asher Ravkin]

And what I mean by that is, like, the Reverso is synonymous with. With jlc. Absolutely. But there's a lot more going on at JLC that people are attracted to, curious about, and interested in than just the Reverso.

[Gabe Riley]

Well, it's part of the reason they've been able to make the Reverso such a thing is because of all the watchmaking capabilities they have.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah.

[Gabe Riley]

It also can be so interesting in such a canvas because they know how to do very impressive things.

[Asher Ravkin]

It's also a very unusual format. I mean, there's not.

[Gabe Riley]

I mean, the Polo polarizing format.

[Asher Ravkin]

It is. And. But the Polo watch is also, like, you know, it's a concept It's. It's been out there. Like, you know, other people have done it. Totally. You know, Cartier has their own version of that, for example, in the tank. That's different mechanism, but same general idea.

[Gabe Riley]

I think I saw even, like, maybe this was a collab, but, like, other brands have done it. Like, I think I saw, like, a Saint Laurent polo watch.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah.

[Gabe Riley]

I know others have. Have entered the category, but no one's really had success with it. I think this is part of the challenge is, like, the Reverso is a very idiosyncratic watch. I think it's. It's a. As a canvas, it's harder to spread your wings with than a royal oak might be. Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

And I think if we look at, like, you know, the. The last 40 years of the brand, for example, there are moments where we see cultural relevance here. And it's interesting. Like, whenever I see Lenny Kravitz. Well, at the time. Yeah.

[Gabe Riley]

Well, no, he's recent. The. The Lenny Kravitz thing. So he's a. He's. He joined as a brand ambassador a couple of years ago. And, like, when you're adding Lenny Kravitz,

[Asher Ravkin]

you really wanted to get away from music, huh?

[Gabe Riley]

And look, I shout out to Lenny Kravitz, Lenny. You know, Lenny Kravitz went to PS6, which is the elementary school I went to in New York City. Yeah, he's, like, the most famous.

[Asher Ravkin]

What were you doing playing drums for me?

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, it could have been Lenny Kravitz. No, but when you're signing Lenny Kravitz as your cultural ambassador in the 2020s, like, you've lost the plot. I mean, these were. The Reverso was on the wrist presenting

[Asher Ravkin]

the Rick Moranis edition.

[Gabe Riley]

I believe it goes back to even the 1989 Batman, but through the Dark Knight. Like, the Reverso was Batman's or Bruce Wayne's. Literally, the Bruce Wayne is the Reverso.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah. That's funny. But the thing about that is that also tells you two things, right? I mean, before product placement, integrated marketing became such a thing, a lot of the reason why some of those choices were made because they were, like, indicative of the individual. Right. So what did it tell you about jlc? It said that this eccentric billionaire made the choice to wear a JLC today.

[Gabe Riley]

Also a metaphor for. For Bruce Wayne and Batman.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, the Reverso, for sure.

[Gabe Riley]

Personality.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, that's. That's. That's a good one.

[Gabe Riley]

So there is a little poetry to it.

[Asher Ravkin]

All right, fair enough. Fair enough. You know, Dr. Strange, you know, more modern example. Benedict Cumberbatch's character wears a jlc, but I think that was more of a try than. Than. Because that's more traditional integrated marketing. You know, where he goes to his watch box and what does he select? The jlc.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

You know, versus just Bruce Wayne. This is his watch. What do you think Batman would wear today?

[Gabe Riley]

I haven't really kept up with the franchise ever since the Christian Bale.

[Asher Ravkin]

I think he'd be like a Peterman Bedat guy maybe, you know, because I feel like he'd be, like, really into something, like, super awesome, but, like, very esoteric. Like, if we think of the Christian Bale era of Batman, he'd be into something like very, very, very impressive and kind of cool, but low key, you know? I don't know.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, I have no idea. I remember a couple years ago, a brand proudly declared to me. They're like, you know, we're working on our brand positioning. We be really clear about what we stand for. And I. And they're like, I think we figured out what we stand for and who we are and how we describe our brand in one sentence. We're the thinking man's watch. And I remember saying to them, you don't want to be the thinking man's watch. JLC is the thinking man's watch. And, like, you don't want to be in the position that that brand is in. Like, it's just. It's just not good enough. Like, I think for us as enthusiasts, for instance, the idea of the watchmaker's watchmaker is interesting and carries some cachet, but it's very inside baseball. What does the watchmaker's watchmaker mean to the average person who's walking around the Topanga Mall with, you know, a few thousand dollars burning in their pocket looking to buy a nice watch. It's. It's just too inside baseball. And I think this is one of the areas where the brand has really struggled, you know, maybe beyond the Batman thing is, like, having some cultural cachet.

[Asher Ravkin]

I think the problem with JLC at its core in the last few years is boiled down to being part of the Richemont group. Richemont, when they decided to look as a, you know, to structure their brands hierarchically, you know, similar to the way that we see that in. In other luxury holding groups, they don't seem as parochial. They're not as parochial about it, but they're still doing it. You know, who. Like, if you think about how You. How you. You segment clients. I see who they're talking to. Like, they're sort of like Vacheron. They've sort of positioned successfully, I think, as the kind of like, you know, super upscale nightlife. Kind of like it's the watch you

[Gabe Riley]

wear to, you know, uber luxury.

[Asher Ravkin]

Uber luxury, but also, like a little. There's like a little bit of flair to it. You know what I mean?

[Gabe Riley]

Like, sure, the watchmaking is there, but it's uber luxury. Whereas, like, Lange is more like haute horology.

[Asher Ravkin]

Oh, yeah. Like, we'll hold that thought for a second. So, like, you know, when you look at, like, the design of the modern Vacheron boutiques, the one in New York is a great example. Yes. You know, it feels. It almost feels like a modernist take on, like, the Roaring twenties, you know, it's like, it's very celebratory, but wealthy. It's not ostentatious, but it's got a little bit of, you know, it's got a little bit of a beautiful, great space. Yeah, but. But the space, but also the watches. So, like, that's where they've positioned that brand. It's like. And I think the tagline is, like, one of not many. Yeah. You know, like. Like they're really trying to suggest to you that, like, not only is this quote unquote, rare, but it signals something about you in a way that is clearly defined. Okay, so that's them, right?

[Gabe Riley]

It's their peak luxury experience within their watch brands.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, I would disagree with that. I would say that's Longa.

[Gabe Riley]

Well, yeah, but I think Lange doesn't position itself around lug luxury. Luxury. Luxury, like 57th street luxury. The way that there's a season. Vacheron's boutique is on 57th street in Manhattan.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah. And Longa is on 68th or whatever.

[Gabe Riley]

Exactly.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah. Because Langa's old money.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

And if we are. If we're going to use broad, sweeping terms like, Langa is for the individual, the way that they're positioned.

[Gabe Riley]

Thinking man's watch.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, I think. No, I think it's for. I think it's for somebody for whom they're seeking the absolute finest. This is how they're positioning it. Price. Price is not an issue. This is how we're structuring it. We will make the best watch that we can imagine for you, which is like.

[Gabe Riley]

This is what I would say. It's like Lange is haute horology. Vacheron in terms of how they position and manage the brands.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yes.

[Gabe Riley]

Vacheron is like high luxury.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yes, 100%. And then you've got JLC, which isn't either of those things in its positioning. Not talking about the watchmaking, talking about the positioning.

[Gabe Riley]

So, but here's the weird thing though. They've managed to mess this all up because they've moved jlc. The numbers bear this out.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah.

[Gabe Riley]

As we've said, the average price per unit has gone way up. And Morgan Stanley and Lux Consult, who track this, have tracked that. JLC is. Price increases in the last few years have actually everyone's had price increases. Their price increases have outpaced the rest of the industry. So what, what's happening here is simultaneously Richemont is trying to move this brand up market right from where it's been historically. Like, your point is a good one for a lot of people. JLC occupied this really nice sweet spot between like a Rolex and a Patek Philippe. Right. Where it was like, this is real watchmaking, fine watchmaking, legit watchmaking for someone who wants something more interesting and more refined than a Rolex with history. With history and all that. But like, isn't into like Patek spending territory or all that sort of stuff. Like they really occupied this, this, this kind of open lane, but now they've been pushed price standpoint, into more of like a hot horology, price positioning. But they're not allowed, but they're also not allowed to have a voice there from the group. It's very weird. It's like, why are you forcing them into a lane that you won't even from a price standpoint, that you won't let them occupy from a brand positioning standpoint.

[Asher Ravkin]

But, but we see this there, there, there's examples of this throughout every industry. Right. This JLC is, is the New Yorker of Conde Nasty. And what I mean by that, what I mean by that as the Atlantic. Well, I made that up. No, I mean the Atlantic is actually firing on all cylinders and highly profitable.

[Gabe Riley]

Apparently their business is doing quite well,

[Asher Ravkin]

you know, and whereas the New Yorker famously is doing does poor, you know, they do not do very well at all. Like, even though the quality of the editorial is exceptional, the history is there, the heritage is there, you know, and, but the holding company Conde Nast just doesn't know what to do with it, but doesn't want to get rid of it. So they just sort of let it sit there and be whatever it is. And that in and of itself creates like this doom spiral there, you know.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

Lost in the wilderness kind of. Yeah, exactly.

[Gabe Riley]

It's Your point about having the opportunity to do anything but choosing to do nothing.

[Asher Ravkin]

Right. So like the New Yorker, the New Yorker stands for, or stands on the shoulders of what it was, as JLC does today, but doesn't have a whole lot of vision about where it's going. Which is exactly why I say the Atlantic is doing so well, because the Atlantic righted it, you know, righted itself, so to speak, and identified. Well, this is who we're going to be in this space. Wired did this too. You know, like, this is who we're going to be. Like the Nicholas Negroponto, a Negroponte. Age of, Of. Of Wired ended decades ago. So, like, what are, what are we now? Okay, well, now we know what we are. We're going to set ourselves on that lane and we're going to be very successful, you know, and in some ways, like Wired has edged out. Edged out the New Yorker at Conde Nast in the same way.

[Gabe Riley]

Oh, yeah, it's much more relevant.

[Asher Ravkin]

Exactly in the way that we've seen Vacheron sort of edge out JLC at Richemont. So then one asks themselves, if we were to remove that, what would happen? So let's talk about that.

[Gabe Riley]

Hey, it's Gabe. Openwork is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription. If you'd like to support the show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube, where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking. You can find our channel@collective horology.com YouTube and of course, you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands, along with our Latest merch@colusive horology.com thanks for listening and for your support.

[Asher Ravkin]

Now back to the show, because if we look at. Let's assume for a minute that JLC is removed from Richemont under Jerome Lambert or whoever. Okay. Yeah, who's it for now?

[Gabe Riley]

Well, I think they need to go through that exercise. I mean, do you. I guess this is the question. It's like, do you go back to basics? Do you say, like, we're going to occupy the lane we did under the Gunter Bloom line era? Or do you need to do like, I think what you're saying, like Wire did, which is say, like, all right, reset and we need to kind of reboot the brand and stand for maybe something more different and more relevant.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, let's talk about. Let's look at one thing that's happened recently that I think is a parallel. Not the same, but a parallel which is the acquisition of Universal Geneve by Breitling. And the rumors about what? Well, there's not so many rumors because they've announced a little bit of what they're doing, but they've also telegraphed a bit of their strategy around it. And what they've done is they announced that they're going to be shocker. Re releasing the poll router right now, the pole router, collector's darling that people have been snatching up for years for a thousand, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand bucks, depending on style, condition, metal, blah, blah, blah. And they come right out the gate with some precious metal and some steel and they're very, very expensive. And what they're banking on is that people knowing that Universal Geneve was a titan of the industry until it wasn't, that there will be a desire to want to reinvest in that purely because of the brand. I think that's a mistake and I think that JLC shouldn't do that. Now, to me, I don't think JLC

[Gabe Riley]

can or should do what is. But here's where I'm going with Universal, because Universal is, yes, all those things, but it's also an empty vessel. It's a brand that's essentially been dormant, whereas JLC has continued to operate and still does, presumably, you know, it's a brand that today is valued at over a billion dollars. They do hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more, in revenue a year. They're distributed, distributed all around the world. There are people who own plenty of these watches. Here's the thing about jlc, it's a difficult comparison.

[Asher Ravkin]

It's only comparison in the sense that these are heritage brands and they have. They've changed. Well, either been resurrected or potentially changing ownership. And that's why I'm looking at them. The interesting thing to me about JLC is that in many ways, it checks a lot of boxes. You know, they have their. They have two. Two lines of dress watches, right? The Reverso and the Master Ultra Thin. They have a women's line, the Rendezvous. They have a sports line, the Polaris. You know, they have. They have the master control for, you know, complications in a more traditional format. And then, of course, they have the Master grand traditions, which are their grand comps. And then the Duo Metro, which is one of the most impressive watches that anyone makes these days. And then, of course, let's not forget the Atmos clock. So if you look at, like, Their overarching strategy, like, they've got their chips in all of the right spots, but for whatever reasons, those watching, maybe not the Polaris. No, no, no, hang on. My point is like they have a sports watch. I'm not saying it's the right sports watch, but they have a sports watch. So they have one of these and they put their chips and all the table. The product doesn't seem to click with everybody. So the real question there is, okay, Breitling's approach here is, well, we're just going to go back to the catalog, we're going to start re releasing. I guarantee you there's a tricompacts, you know, it's going to come out from them 100%. They're just going to like, they're going to, you know, shut up and play the hits. If you look at gp, GP is saying we're going to keep making the hit, you know, the quote unquote hits in the laureato.

[Gabe Riley]

But we're going to, we're going to

[Asher Ravkin]

kind of push the edges here a bit more and we're going to try to like attract people that we weren't attracting before by making avant garde haute horology pieces. Un takes that to another level. So if we apply that same logic of just amplifying oneself and we look at that with jlc, really honestly, I think they could over time really start competing more aggressively with their old neighbors Vacheron and Lange.

[Gabe Riley]

So you think they do have the potential to keep moving up market?

[Asher Ravkin]

I think part of my theory, and I guess I was long winded in this, my theory on all this is part of the reason why they got shoved down, is that you couldn't have made Vacheron and Langa as successful as they were without smothering jlc.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, yeah, to some extent, yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

Which isn't, which isn't to let anybody off the hook for like some of the mistakes on the brand management side. But I also think, just corporately speaking, you had to do it.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, I think it goes one of two ways. I think you're right. It either goes in this direction of like the reboot, reset version of JLC becomes it's fine watchmaking. That's what it is. And like, they have absolutely the capabilities and the credentials to do it. I mean, like I said when I was going through and researching the brand, I was blown away by the complicated and fine watchmaking they do. It's extremely impressive and I had just like forgotten that it was there. And I'm like, holy Smokes like, look at that. And look at that finishing. It's, it's, it's incredible. So maybe one answer is to do what everyone else in the industry seems to be doing, which is to move up, market it. Right. You couldn't, you could say, like, well, okay, that, that, that's true, but you're kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. Because JLC is a major brand with a ton of great distribution. And at least in the watch enthusiast community, like, it looms large. It's a brand that even if people don't necessarily collect or want to collect it, it still occupies a really price.

[Asher Ravkin]

I mean, the opportunity for goodwill there is exceptionally large.

[Gabe Riley]

This is my point. There's a volume opportunity there in a way that maybe there isn't with some of these other brands. So maybe you say like, actually the opportunity for them is to own this lane around watchmaking again in the 10 to $20,000 segment. And, you know, they'll still make the complicated stuff and do all the fine watchmaking, but maybe they really need to go back to their knitting and focus on watchmaking in that lane. Because if you think about the 10 to $20,000 lane, it's kind of been left open now. This was the lane that 10 years ago is really occupied solidly by a lot of independents. And now a lot of the independents have moved up market for any number of reasons. And there's kind of a lane there for a brand that can offer legitimate watchmaking in a price segment that a lot of brands seem to be walking away from.

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah, but they got to do without the value trap, right? I mean, you've got. So both Patek and actually Patek, Vacheron and Lange have all abandoned that, the sub 20,000 range, the 56 notwithstanding, to, you know, like you, when they, when the Saxonia thing came out, it was an incredible $14,000, you know, for a fair amount of time, Vacheron's entry level patrimonies, you know, were under $20,000. Not anymore. You know, so I think like there. And of course, the Calatravas from Patek are now into the stratosphere in the 30,000.

[Gabe Riley]

My point is, like, if there's any brand that could move into that, right?

[Asher Ravkin]

It could be. Yeah. And they could eventually, also eventually bust themselves out of that after rebuilding the brand. The, the, the challenge there, of course, is that. And, and I don't know how to say this politely so to speak, but the Master Ultra Thin is so on the nose for what it is. It's just not an interesting watch, and therefore it's not terribly compelling.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, it looks like watch.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, yeah, because that's what it is, right? It is the absolute, you know, just reductive definition of a fine dress watch, which is great, but it misses some of the flair that you get.

[Gabe Riley]

Like a Saxonia Ultra Thin is a great example. Like, that is a watch that has some flair to it.

[Asher Ravkin]

Well, the Saxonia Thin was also. I mean, you were. This is the brilliance of the marketing of that watch. Right. I mean, it's a very simple watch. And we could make the same argument about the dial on that watch. Incredibly reductive, very traditional. But what you're really buying there, like, the hook that they have you on, is this watch has been fitting, finished to the same level as any of our other watches. It's been taken apart and reassembled and all of the stuff that makes, you know, a Lange line.

[Gabe Riley]

But it follows the. Forget even that. It also follows the design codes of a Lago, which are different than a generic sort of Swiss fine watch.

[Asher Ravkin]

It has the Teutonic thing. But my point is, the reason, like, the coded reason people buy that watch is not. I mean, the aesthetic is part of it, but what it really is is knowing that you own a Lange and all that goes along with it. When you look at, like a patrimony or you look at, you know, the entry level dress watches, again, excluding the 56 line from. From VC, I think it's similar where it's like, you know, these are Geneva sealed movements, and that's why I'm excluding the 56, you know, like, these are Geneva sealed movements. Like these. There's a heritage to, like, I see the direct line from like the original ultra thin calibers from JLC to the design of these. Like, I know what I have on my. Excuse me, not JLC Vacheron. Like, I know what's on my wrists, you know, and JLC just kind of like waffles between the two. So they need to find that hook for them once again about what makes a JLC so fundamentally unique. And they. And they. They almost had it. They almost had it a couple of years ago with the geophysic.

[Gabe Riley]

Oh, right.

[Asher Ravkin]

Because it was a fantastic watch. And they. And. And it, like, it nailed everything they wanted to say. And to me, like, the Geo. That's why I think the geophysic is last. It's like the last of the Infinity Stones for them, because it's kind of everything about that brand that everybody wants perfectly nailed right? Beautiful and precious metal. Beautiful in steel. Dead second complication has a heritage connected to scientific research, but it's kind of a dress watch, but it's kind of not, you know, and you've got this like. So what is it? It's a really high performing high horology to a degree. You know, one foot in the past, one foot in the future. Clearly identifiable watch. That watch killed. And to me I'm like, that's the, that's, that's what you've been missing. That's what you've been missing. Because everything else either feels too connected to the past. You know, the reverso, the master ultra thin, blah, blah, blah to, you know, priced into the stratosphere. Like the dual metric.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah.

[Asher Ravkin]

You know, sort of unremarkable. Like the Rendezvous, you know, like, why buy that versus a Cartier versus a Chopar, you know, and the Polaris is like, it's fine. But there's so many compressor style watches out there that offer, you know, just about the same. So it's a crowded space, but if you really boil it down, like, that's so much of who they are. So. So I would say, and what I would be looking for when I, you know, when, when they split off, if they do, is for them to actually like drop a lot of this and really look at some of the things that were iconic for them that you don't get elsewhere that are great. Like for example, their alarm watches, you know, which they've done. They've brought those back.

[Gabe Riley]

People love those.

[Asher Ravkin]

I love those. They've brought those back as limited editions now and then. And they always do really well. The geophysic defines so much of what they did. You know, maybe slim the master control line down dramatically, you know, kill the Polaris and go back to some of, you know, either come up with a completely new form factor or go back to some of like, you know, the older, more sportier pieces that are more effective in that space and really own your own aesthetic rather than trying to do what they're doing now where it's like, oh, it's a Polaris but with a beautiful degrade dial. And you're like, well, well, I mean,

[Gabe Riley]

I mean, they're wandering in the wilderness and I think the point here is like, they need to find something.

[Asher Ravkin]

But they have, but they have some things that they, some threads that they can pull that will bring that back around and maintain their heritage and give them a foot forward. So they haven't been doing a couple options.

[Gabe Riley]

Here is one. They move up market, they compete in high horology, they're unshackled, and they can really go head to head with some of the brands, Langa and Vacheron, and then even outside of Richemont, some of the other brands and high horology, let's

[Asher Ravkin]

call that the urban Jurgensen move.

[Gabe Riley]

That's one move. And, and to some extent that' like a cynical move. That's the way the industry and executives are guiding brands overall, which is, and to some extent they've been trying to guide. JLC is upmarket. Another is like, no, you should reclaim the mantle of what you've always stood for, which is offering, like, compelling, you know, watchmaking in a space between mainstream brands and a Patek and a Longa and Vacheron. Like, there's a lane there. And still, certainly from a price position, price positioning standpoint, there's a lane that's wide open. There's. Here's the third move. This is the X factor. So as we've said, obviously, JLC sits within the Richemont Group. I want to give you an idea of what Richemont Group's business actually looks like today because watchmaking is increasingly being dwarfed by their jewelry business. So jewelry Maisons, namely Cartier and I know they do watchmaking, but Cartier and Van Cleef and our Pen Tell, okay, their sales in Richemont's 2025 financial year. So sales of the jewelry Maisons, 15.3 billion euros. Sales of the specialist watchmakers, this is JLC, IWC, Vacheron and so on, 3.3 billion. The jewelry business of the, of richemont is literally 5x the size of by revenue, 5x the size of their watchmaker. All their watchmaking businesses combined. They also have a separate other category, which is like fashion and accessories. Mont Blanc is in this as well. It's 2.8 billion. So the thing, the straw that stirs the drink at Richemont is Cartier and jewelry. Okay, so now you're. Imagine this. These are the waters in your Jerome Lambert. These are the waters in which you're bathing, right? You're thinking about jlc, not just in the context of JLC and what it's capable of, but you're looking at the industry more broadly. You ran Richemont, you're thinking about Richemont and luxury more broadly. You look over at Cartier and you're like, hang on a second. These guys have built an incredible business off of a rectangular watch. Watch. It's a big part of Cartier success. And If I look at the watch industry more broadly, one other trend that's happening is this trend towards shaped smaller watches. We've got the Reverso. It's an iconic watch. This is what our brand is known for. I can't really compete in the rectangular and shaped watch category against Cartier. This is another area in which I'm boxed in. But imagine if I can start doing reversos with stone dials and interesting shaped cases and smaller sizes for ladies, and I can take my icon.

[Asher Ravkin]

What you're describing is Cartier strategy. And you'll be, and you're able to, you're able to do that when you're not, you know, when you're not a snake eating its tail.

[Gabe Riley]

Yeah, but it's Cartier strategy. My point is the, the trend towards smaller and shaped watches is a trend in the industry. No, no, no. Cartier is successful.

[Asher Ravkin]

I'm not talking about form factor. What I, what I mean is, is part of the reason that jewelry houses that make watches are so successful generally at what they do is because they have way more or they give themselves way more artistic freedom than a lot of these other brands do. Like, if you think about, like, they

[Gabe Riley]

do, but they're successful. Now my point is like, this is a moment in time in the industry where like, sure, jewelry watches, shaped watches, stone dial watches, like, are being rewarded. Cartier is like, part of the reason jlc, let's be frank, has really suffered is because, like, in the last 10 years, everyone cared about sports watches and they didn't have a compelling sports watch offering. I bet things would be very different for the brand if they did. Part of the reason Cartier is doing so well and Bulgari is doing well and you know, Van Cleef and Arpel is probably growing from watchmaking standpoints because they're in the right place at the

[Asher Ravkin]

right time right now.

[Gabe Riley]

So you could argue like, like JLC looks at the other specialist watchmakers like Vacheron and, and Longa, and they're like, man, we should, we could be more like those guys if only we were unshackled. My point is Jerome Lombert could also equally be looking at a business like Cartier and be and, and saying to himself, I could do so much volume. I could be in every fashion magazine, my store, my watches could be, you know, selling to people who are looking to watches that play into this current moment. Moment. But I'm not only boxed in by JLC and Longa on one hand, I'm boxed in by Cartier. I Can't. I can't really do too much with the Reverso because I sit in the same group as Cartier. So there's. I guess they're boxed in on either side.

[Asher Ravkin]

This is a fun conversation for a lot of reasons, but I think when we, when we, when we boil it down, what we're really saying is JLC has, Has both made decisions that have. Have watered down the product line, but they've also been. Been, you know, into a corner by being part of a larger group. And I don't think it's completely fair to say that jlc, quote, unquote, did this to themselves. I think that, sure, maybe they contributed to some of that, but part of this is just being part of a giant conglomerate. Breaking off from that will give them the flexibility to look at the products that ultimately define themselves as opposed to the things that rhyme with the history of jlc. And that, I believe, is the bet that someone who's willing to put up a billion dollars of investor cash on the line sees and. And for JLC to succeed, it can't be Audemars Piguet, it can't be Patek Philippe, it cannot be Langanzona, and it cannot be Vacheron Constantin, and it cannot be Cartier either. It cannot be Cartier either. And in order for all of that to fit, it has the ingredients historically. It hasn't necessarily had the leadership historically in recent years, and it hasn't had the permission in recent years. So if we believe that new leadership, a new permission structure, and the rest can allow them to maybe once again spread their wings and have a horological point of view, then I am. I'm here for it. I'm excited about that. I think that's awesome. Because I would like to see more Polaris. You know, I would like to see more alarms. I would like to see.

[Gabe Riley]

You'd like to hear more alarms?

[Asher Ravkin]

Yeah, exactly. I would like to, but I. And I still want to see the duo Metro. I still want to see the high comp stuff, you know, but I want to see less variants of the. Of the watches that we know are sort of being pumped off the, you know, the production line because they're safe and because they don't threaten the rest

[Gabe Riley]

of the group, they fill a need on a spreadsheet. Well, there's your social media clip right there. Thank you. I think we can leave it there. What do you say?

[Asher Ravkin]

Sounds good.

[Gabe Riley]

All right, well, thanks so much for listening. Openwork is, of course, a production of collective horology. You can find us online at collection collective horology.com and please get in touch with your questions, your feedback, your suggestions. We love all that stuff. And to do that, just email podcastollective horology.com.

[Asher Ravkin]

He goes to his watch box and what does he select? The JLC.