The Watch Switzerland Can't Make – Karel Bachand (Barrelhand) – Episode 89

Summary

Podcast Summary

Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry

Episode 89: The Watch Switzerland Can't Make – Karel Bachand (Barrelhand)
Date: July 27, 2026
Hosts: Gabe Reilly & Asher Rapkin
Guest: Karel Bachand, Founder & CEO of Barrelhand

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Asher Rapkin and Gabe Reilly go behind the scenes with Karel Bachand, the innovative founder and chief engineer of Barrelhand, a San Francisco-based watch brand. The discussion explores what it means to be an American independent watchmaker, why certain watches "can't be made in Switzerland," and how an engineering-driven, decentralized supply chain built in the United States enables cutting-edge horological innovation—especially for use-cases as extreme as space exploration.

The episode provides a revealing comparison between traditional Swiss watchmaking and Barrelhand’s aerospace-inspired methods, diving into the challenges, unique advantages, and philosophy that set Barrelhand apart from its Swiss (and American) peers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Founding Barrelhand & Early Challenges

• Starting from Scratch
  • Karel self-funded Barrelhand after an early stint at NASA Ames Research Center and working for Zarek.
  • A passion project reverse-engineering an Urwerk led to encouragement from Urwerk’s founders to start his own brand.
• The Swiss & Chinese Supply Chain Problem
  • Attempted to manufacture in Switzerland, but was quoted astronomical prices ("$30,000 per unit on a 30-piece minimum order" – 09:27), making the model unfeasible for a startup.
  • Quotes from Chinese manufacturers were lower but raised concerns over quality and capability for innovation.
• Building the American Supply Chain
  • Decided to create a decentralized, U.S.-based supply chain, collaborating with artisans and niche manufacturers.
  • "There was another three years plus spent just developing the supply chain and infrastructure to be able to build it out here." (13:58)
  • This approach offered unique creative freedom and allowed detailed oversight of every component.

2. Advantages & Innovation Through Decentralization

• Unconventional Solutions & Control
  • U.S. suppliers—unburdened by tradition—were more open to experimentation.
  • Allowed use of exotic materials, advanced manufacturing (e.g., 3D printing), and even aerospace-grade components.
  • "I think having people approach a project from an unconventional way is how you innovate a lot..." (17:14)
• Barrelhand as a Technology Company, Not Traditional Watchmaker
  • "We're really approaching Barrel Hand as a technology company, and we're building tools for the next chapter, space exploration." (23:21, Karel)

3. Engineering for Space: Barrelhand's Monolith

• Why a Mechanical Watch for Space?
  • Electronic systems (e.g., quartz, LCD) are highly vulnerable to space’s temperature swings and radiation.
  • "There's a real use case... it's not for luxury, it's not for tradition. It's really the best mechanical redundancy for timekeeping in space exploration." (28:55)
• Novel Materials & Features
  • Use of metal 3D printing, Skalmalloy, aerospace-spec gaskets, and nanofiche data storage (which stores up to 1,000 pages of text in a quarter-sized disk).
  • Open-source approach: All CAD and design files will be made available for collaboration and iteration. (57:09)

4. Challenging Watch Industry Norms

• Rethinking Supply Chains and "In-House" Obsession
  • Karel questions the automatic rush to vertical integration that dominates both Swiss and American independent brands, instead prioritizing supplier expertise over owning all production methods.
  • "We want to remain flexible... so we don't have to feel married to any specific technology." (25:22)
• Movement Choices: Practicality Over Purity
  • Chose a modified Sellita movement for reliability, not snobbery or tradition: "We don't want an artisanal, handmade movement. We need something that's super reliable and rugged." (54:14)
  • Critiques the collector obsession with "in-house" or rare movements as a blindspot: "By using a common movement... that's somehow a cop out or a mistake versus a deliberate choice." (55:41, Asher/Rapkin)

5. Market, Audience, and Positioning

• Not Marketing Toward Heritage & Luxury
  • Barrelhand's customer base includes many first-time watch buyers drawn by technology and engineering, not tradition.
  • "The whole brand identity the watch industry is currently built off of is unsexy to this demographic..." (36:27)
• Intentionally Outside the Traditional Watch Fairs & Retail Model
  • Entirely DTC (direct-to-consumer) model, with customers enrolled early and involved in the product’s evolution.
  • Batch production (next round Q4 2026), scaling toward in-stock availability.

6. Provocations for Collectors and the Industry

• Broadening What "Value" Means in Watches
  • The "Old tent" makes finishing and heritage the gold standards; innovation and engineering are often overlooked.
  • "If you want to grow the tent, you have to be willing to be different." (40:04, Gabe)
  • Watch brands can’t expect to attract new buyers by playing it safe.
• Analogy to Brands like Hublot
  • Hublot is successful despite being outside "watch nerd" approval; focus is on their own market rather than pleasing taste-makers (42:00+).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Building in the US:
  • "About the same amount of time that went into the R&D and engineering and the design of the watch, there was another three years plus spent just developing the supply chain and infrastructure to be able to build it out here." (13:47, Bachand)
• On Rejecting Swiss Pricing:
  • "They said the smallest batch they could do is like 30 units. And I think they were charging like 30k per unit to produce. So it was almost like a million dollar order..." (09:19, Bachand)
• On Mechanical Watches in Space:
  • "So for myself included, and I think a lot of the customers that we've seen so far, they're kind of like repulsed by that... we're building something that's also like hyper engineered." (36:27, Bachand)
• On Movement Snobbery:
  • "I think a lot of blind spots that collectors have revolve around this concept...that that's somehow a cop out or a mistake versus a deliberate choice." (55:41, Asher)
  • "You want to start with something reliable, not something artisanal and handmade." (54:18, Bachand)
• On Industry Risk Aversion:
  • "[MB&F] lived day to day. Essentially. Max has talked about this, and that's risky and that's hard to do." (41:29, Asher)
• On Barrelhand's Customer Base:
  • "Many [customers], it's their first watch, which is kind of crazy. If you're coming from watch collector perspective, it's like... buy an independent, lesser known name brand just as your first watch." (36:27, Bachand)
• On Inviting Collaboration:
  • "We're making publicly available so people can pick it apart, provide feedback. If there's engineers out there...say, like, hey...you could actually do this to improve it." (57:09, Bachand)

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Timeline & Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origin Story and Early Struggles: [07:17–15:42]
• Building an American Supply Chain: [13:16–15:42]
• Supply Chain as an Innovation Engine: [17:14–19:36]
• On Movement & Supplier Decisions: [21:54–25:22]
• Monolith & Space Engineering Details: [27:24–31:08]
• Target Audience & New Collectors: [33:17–39:03]
• Critique of Watch Industry/Marketing: [39:03–42:00]
• Comparisons to Other Outlier Brands (Hublot, Urwerk, MB&F): [42:00–47:29]
• Mechanical Redundancy & Movement Selection: [49:37–55:00]
• Public Collaboration & Open Source Approach: [57:07–58:06]
• Sales Model & Batch Production: [58:06–60:35]

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Conclusion

Karel Bachand of Barrelhand offers a rare, engineering-centric, and decentralized approach in a watch industry dominated by tradition, "in-house" obsession, and luxury positioning. His supply chain choices, American sourcing, and focus on space-worthy reliability challenge Swiss norms and invite a new breed of collector—one engaged by technical innovation rather than heritage.

Memorable takeaways: Deliberate supplier choices can drive genuine innovation; mechanical engineering still matters in the most extreme environments; and the path to growing the collector tent is through difference, not imitation.

Final advice for watch industry traditionalists:
“If you want to attract a different audience...you have to be willing to be different.” (40:04, Gabe)

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Find Barrelhand: barrelhand.com
Find Collective Horology: collectivehorology.com

Transcript

[A]

An important news note before we begin today. So on Friday, July 24, 2026, collective, along with burlap and Barrel, they're a New York based spice importer, filed a Lawsuit in the U.S. court of International Trade challenging the federal government's latest round of tariffs known as Section 301 tariffs. Now we've of course talked a great deal about tariffs on the podcast here. The economic burden and uncertainty they create for our customers, the artisanal watch brands we represent, and of course Collective our. But this is the first time we found ourselves in the news, so we thought it was important to acknowledge it here. And on our next episode, we're going to spend more time getting into the details. In the meantime, if you're curious to learn more about the suit or these new tariffs, you can find coverage in most major news outlets. Just search for Collective Horology tariffs. With that out of the way, let's get on with the show.

[B]

I think a lot of blind spots that collectors have revolve around this concept, but by using a common, common movement, you know, a G100 or a 300 series Salina movement or whatever is that that's somehow a cop out or a mistake versus a deliberate choice.

[A]

This is openwork, a look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co founder of Collective.

[B]

And I'm Asher Rapkin, back from vacation. Collective Horology is an independent watch retailer based in Ventura, California. We carry a wide range of independent brands including Sartori, Br, Toledano and Chan Ber and more. To learn more about us and check out our available inventory physical ecoprology.com Asher,

[A]

you know, it's summertime, which can only mean one thing, which is that the

[B]

old office here is super hot.

[A]

Yeah, no, that office is brutal. I recorded a video in there, a hands on with the Niton Prima yesterday and it must have been 85 degrees in the office and I had to just record most of it off camera because it was brutal. So if you see me profusely sweating on YouTube, you know why? It's, it's not just lack of hygiene, although that's part of it. But no, it's summertime. It's summertime. Which means all the watch brands are feverishly sending us watches before they head out on, on summer holiday. And so this is an exciting time of year. The shipping and receiving department is very busy and we've got some great stuff that has, that has hit the store lately in stock and ready to ship new watches from Sartori B yard. Their new SB04E. So that's kind of their time only watch collection nuances. So these are beautiful fume color dials with radial finishing and a new handset like an art deco handset. That's really cool. We've got some inventory for once. Finally from Holthen Rick's. Some not much but we've, we've got some new watches in from. From Ricks which is really cool and very unusual. So jump on those if you're keen. They never stick around long. And then from Fears Asher, I think this is a very Asher watch. We've got a bunch of their novelties in including the Brunswick 40 helmsman, that sort of sailing watch with the. It's an watch that's got that fully brushed case, white dial, blue dial furniture. Very cool summer watch.

[B]

So you're forgetting my other favorite new inventory update.

[A]

Oh, what's that?

[B]

In a perfect example of eating your own dog food. I would highly recommend coming by to visit the Singer Dual track. We just got back in stock the brand new Meridian green and the gorgeous maroon variants of the Singer Dual Track. I am a huge fan of Dual time watches. They are the complication I have a right to. I race cars, I'm not a diver, but I do travel. So GMTs, dual times, that's my thing and I loved it so much that I got one for myself. So we are very happy to have those in along with a restock of caballeros. Hey, is that all the housekeeping? Did we do it?

[A]

It's all. That's all the housekeeping. A lot of. Just imagine the, the FedEx planes are just packed at the gills leaving Geneva with watches these days.

[B]

But yes, it's like this is what it's like we sell watches for a living or something. Hey, we got a guest here.

[A]

We do. Speaking of not from Switzerland.

[B]

Indeed. I'm extremely proud to say that we have Karel Bechand here who is the founder and CEO and chief engineer behind Barrowham, the San Francisco based watch brand. He built around engineering, additive manufacturing and a very space age view of horology. I will also add that the only time we've met in person was at a Fear's Beers eventually. One of my favorite things that ever happens in the world of watchmaking and correct me if I am wrong, Karel, but I believe you were wearing a Dude sweater and it.

[C]

Or is that.

[B]

Or you were very close to wearing the sweater the dude wears in the

[C]

Big Lebowski, which is probably something similar. Maybe some Doobie Brothers there you Go.

[B]

So.

[C]

So a lot of.

[B]

Lot of love for me on that one. He got his start at NASA Ames Research center working on simulated microgravity devices, and then took that technical background into independent watchmaking, where he's known for pushing unusual designs and advanced materials. He has also been recognized on Forbes 30 under 30, which is remarkable because he's under 30, which I definitely am not, for his work in manufacturing and technology. Karel, welcome to openwork, yo.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me, guys. I'm stoked to jump on. And I was really excited, too, because I feel like you guys approach everything from kind of like behind the scenes. And I think that's, like, the most interesting part about watchmaking that often doesn't get covered in the magazines.

[B]

Ah, well, thank you. We try. And to that end, I want to dive right in here because Barrel Hand for those. And if you are not familiar with Barrel Hand, I highly recommend you go visit their website right now so you can have some context on the sort of work that they're doing. But from a business standpoint, you represent something that is a bit of a rare bird. You're the Kevin, so to speak, for the UP fans out there, which is an American watchmaker. Now. We are obviously huge fans of American watchmaking here at Collective, we are longtime friends and authorized dealership Josh Shapiro, who approaches American watchmaking, I think it's fair to say, from a profoundly different point of view than you do, which is part of why I find what you're doing so incredibly interesting and different. So I want to just start with some rudimentary stories. I know your backstory. We can hear on other podcasts. There's lots of information out there about how you got to where you are. But I want to talk a little bit about the structural beginnings of your business. Gabe and I have talked at length about what it is to build an authorized dealership from the ground up here in the United States. But we haven't had a whole lot of conversation about what it is to do that with a brand. So can we just start by talking about you as an individual? You had this idea. How did you get started? Where did the funding come from? Who gave you the structural guidance, if anyone? Where did you get started?

[C]

To get started, it was all self funded. So I was basically working in the watch industry at the time. I was working for a brand called Zarek, and I was helping with a lot of, like, their design and engineering, kind of do these, like, cool, crazy complications. So that was my first, like, real world job. You could say Outside of college, I had done the senior project, NASA Ames. So we were doing the simulated microgravity device. So that was my first like hands on experience in the aerospace industry. But I was kind of working on project one, which was our first piece that we launched almost like seven years ago now. And that project basically stemmed from, I had recreated like an Urwerk in the early days, just kind of like as a passion project. And when I met with urwerk, they had kind of like we had talked about maybe doing an internship, but they kind of pointed me towards doing, starting my own brand. And I was 19 at the time, so I was like, okay, well how hard can that be? Let's just, you know, line up some manufacturers and make it happen. So that kind of like naive approach I think is what allowed me to get to where I'm at now and how we built Barrel Hand, how it is today. And I think, you know, from the start it was more focused on like the engineering, the design. So I guess the infrastructure of it was not until once the design was complete that I realized, okay, well I need someone to produce this, right? So it's one thing if you can do all the engineering, the design, you have something cool and unique that you want to share with the world. Where do you go to produce it? And with any like small amount of watchmaking experience, you know, kind of like the Swiss is, is the golden hub to produce these things. So I started shopping around. I hit up a bunch of different suppliers out there and I mean the quotes I was getting was astronomical. I was I think 22 maybe at the time when I started really like shopping for like a supply chain.

[B]

So just flush with cash. Just cash everywhere.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I was like fresh out of college. I just started my first like big boy job, you could say. So it wasn't like I had, you know, unlimited funds. And even if I did, it just didn't make financial sense. Like some of these quotes that they were giving me, for example, I won't say who it was, but there was a supplier. Most of them are white label, right? So it's, it's kind of like you give them a design, they'll, they'll quote you for it and then they'll produce it. So I wanted something that was like pretty small batch. They said the smallest batch they could do is like 30 units. And I think they were charging like 30k per unit to produce. So it was like, it was almost like a million dollar order. And I was like, I don't even know if I'm going to be able to sell these units, let alone like even if I could fund it. I was like, that just doesn't make any sense. If, even if I found an investor or someone to back it just. It sounded ridiculous because then I'm having to sell it for, I don't know, at least 60k or something.

[B]

So I'm just curious, you know, we, we talk a lot about Urwerk. We're huge Urwerk fans here. We've worked with Urwerk in the past and you know, Martin and Felix are, are really singular humans. And I'm just curious, as a 19 year old who was attempting to essentially reverse engineer their intellectual property, what was that conversation like? How did they handle that?

[C]

They were amazing. They're so cool. I think just how they approached it, they understood I was just like an absolute fanboy nerding out on their watches. And I was an engineering student at the time, so it was just me trying to understand all the work that went into it. And I think it was cool when we met up in person and I was showing them this 3D printed version, it was fully functioning, but showing them my version of the UR202 next to the one that I think Martin had on his wrist, it was just cool because we were pointing out all the little details. He's like, ah, this curve, maybe, you know, it's not exactly the same, but they were really impressed by the overall dimensional accuracy and especially on the mechanics side, you know, we were able to talk in depth about the cam path for this telescopic like minutes and, and all these things that I think most collectors that even own a ur202 may not appreciate. And so the fact that I had kind of like been in the trenches like figuring out how they engineered all this, I had a deep respect for all the thought that went into it to make it happen. And it was cool to be able to like bond on that because that's like a very niche category of people that love Urwerk and also will understand all the engineering and thought that went into making it. So they, they welcomed me with like really open arms and it was amazing to feel that kind of respect and love from my idols that I had been fanboying over for, you know, years. Basically.

[A]

Yeah, I mean that's one thing that makes independent watchmaking and sort of the artistic side of any industry and creative side of any industry so, so different from the mainstream, which is the, the people don't view everything as a zero sum game where, you know, you can only succeed if they somehow Lose. Independent watchmaking generally is a very supportive community. So but let's get back to this wide eyed 22 year old with, with a project one design and all the engineering figured out, maybe navigating the less forgiving side of the Swiss watch industry, which is white label production. So you, you get this quote for $30,000 a unit or whatever it might be and the economics are clearly insane. Where do you go from there? How do you figure this out?

[C]

I mean as at that age and like how much time I'd put into developing and doing the engineering, it was really discouraging. I really, it was kind of a heavy hit to feel like I was out of options. If I went to the major hub that produces all these, my next path was, you know, maybe going overseas, seeing if someone in China could do it. There's lots of white label services that can do it over there, but even after getting quotes over there, I just didn't have like a good belly feeling of like how it would be approached. And I think the, the Chinese manufacturing is capable of like super high end stuff, but they will also cut corners where available. So it was kind of felt like all these little details that I wanted to put into it were going to be compromised along the way or they didn't have access to certain machines that I really wanted to utilize to demonstrate in project one. So after kind of this barrage of disappointing quotes and not really having a clear path, I was like, well, how hard can it be to build a supply chain here in the US And I'm sure if you've talked to any other watchmakers out here, like Shapiro or Cameron Weiss, that was its own challenge on its own. And I would say about the same amount of time that went into the R and D and engineering and the design of the watch. There was another three years plus spent just developing the supply chain and infrastructure to be able to build it out here. So that was a challenging journey. But it also felt good to have control over every single supplier. So you know, if I wanted a very specific type of screw, there's great screw manufacturers out here. If I wanted specific type of glass, I was working with the suppliers directly. So every single detail could really be tailored. And I think maybe this is like a watchmaker type engineering mind of like you just want to have control over as many of your suppliers as possible in every little detail to make sure it's executed to the best degree. So I don't think we could have gotten to a project one that I was happy with without having control and Having built the full supply chain, and now that we have it, it allowed us to build new projects like Monolith, which was even more ambitious in its own way.

[A]

It's interesting a lot of people who are doing any kind of watchmaking in the United States put their finger on exactly this, which is in Switzerland or in China. There is a really robust industry around production. There are companies that just make screws or handsets or dials or bracelets or whatever it might be. And obviously, there is a lot of manufacturing capability in the United States and aerospace and in medical supplies, things like. Things like that, but not really a specialist watchmaking industry. So oftentimes you're relying on vendors who have maybe never produced a component for a watch before. Now. They may have produced things that are actually much more ambitious and built to higher tolerances and things like that, but have never done something for. For watchmaking before. And a lot of the discussion around that is about how, oh, you know, this. Creating a supply chain in the United States is such a problem, because it's not like Switzerland. You don't have, like a. A phone book filled with a producer for every single component you could imagine and then some. You have to piece it all together. And that certainly sou to your point, like a lot of work, but it also sounds like it's something that actually unconstrained you. It wasn't just this constraint and negative thing. So we've heard a lot about how difficult it is and what a barrier it is. But I'm curious, like, what are the positive sides of building your own supply chain? Like, how did it actually unconstrain you and take what you were. What you envisioned, maybe to another level.

[C]

I think having people approach a project from an unconventional way is how you innovate a lot too. So it's like if the Swiss or the Chinese suppliers have been producing a part a certain way for, you know, a hundred years, that they're very convinced that this is the only way to do it. And I think having an unconventional approach allows you to find new solutions and innovate on those things. So that was really exciting for me. I think also having all these talented artisans across the US and kind of like, learning about their craft and just seeing people so passionate and having a direct connection with that is amazing. Like, there's so many talented machinists. There's amazing leather workers out here. Like, we had someone do, like, a bison leather strap for Project One. And it's just things like that where, you know, we. If you had gone to an OEM supplier, all these corners would have been cut. And I think it just adds to the storytelling also of having all these different flavors and people that came together to make a really cool piece, and they all were kind of given a blank slate to innovate in their own space, whether it be on the watchmaking side or the leather work or the machining. So they're bringing in their own flavors to make something that you would not be able to get from a traditional, like, OEM hub.

[A]

You got this insane quote from a supplier in Switzerland for production. Then you're like, well, I can't do that. I'll look at China. Ooh. This might not be built in, you know, the way that I. I would want it. So I'm going to take this on myself. In taking it on yourself, did it expose anything about maybe what you had seen in Switzerland or China in terms of. I don't want to say that you'd maybe be taken advantage of, but I would certainly imagine that ultimately, you know, acting, in a sense, as your own general contractor, you kind of figured out how to do a lot of this stuff. What did it expose about the industry other than, like, you know, as you pointed out, sometimes it gets set in its ways, and, like, this is how this is done, and there's no other way. But I. I don't know, did it. But did it highlight any. Anything else and. Or any way you might have been getting. You would have been taken for a ride had you produced in another location?

[C]

Yeah, I think part of it was that with the traditional hubs, they could charge kind of whatever because they knew they had the playbook or the contacts to make it happen. So usually an OEM supplier is kind of just connecting you with the dial supplier, hand supplier, what have you. And so they can kind of charge whatever premium for those contacts. And I think once we took control of our own supply chain, you kind of start to see, like, what the prices are actually to do it. And you also see that some things are incredibly challenging to do. Like, making hands is not something you can do with, like, just traditional CNC machines. You need kind of, like a big infrastructure. So some places in the supply chain, it makes sense why they're able to charge as much as they do. But for the most part, it just felt like we were getting shafted all the time whenever we would get quotes from the Swiss because they could charge whatever. They're like, this is just what it is. And obviously, we've made some amazing contacts.

[B]

Do you think part of that was like, because they either didn't want to work with you or because they were just like, well, we don't really want to do this. MOQ is low. And I'm just going to say that this is what it costs or is that what it actually costs now that, you know, because you're producing?

[C]

I think obviously they're trying to make money on it. So if they see someone that's really burning to make something come to life and they feel like they're the only source of execution for that, then they're like, well, how badly do you really want it? And I think into that. So, yeah, for me, it just put a fire under like, you know, let's build it ourselves, let's figure it out, let's build the supply chain. And in the end with project one, we ended up retailing it for 30,000 instead of our cost being 30,000. So it's still really high. But I think in terms of the innovation, the new materials that we're using and building something essentially entirely in the US Besides like a modified movement that we had built the gear train off of, I think it's really good price performance. And especially after getting all the quotes from the different suppliers, it was something that was out of reach, price wise for me, but it felt like good value for what was being put into it.

[A]

So it's funny, so many watchmakers who are doing this in the United States, you know, the playbook is generally like we make a watch. We probably rely on suppliers in the beginning for, for a good portion of it, but over time we're going to bring a lot of these things that you're describing in house. You know, Josh Shapiro has built an array of CNC machines and electric lathes and an army of watchmakers and engine engineers and all these people and you know, as have, as have others, Roland Murphy is another good, good example of that. But you've decided to take a very different approach, which is really relying on and playing to the strengths of other suppliers who have an expertise in particular fields or, and they're not all in the United States in particular fields or with particular materials or particular or machining processes, additive manufacturing, things like that. Is that, is that an approach you're going to continue to rely on in terms of working with partners and suppliers? And if so, why have you decided to go that way? When the traditional, you know, it's almost funny, like American watchmaking playbook or even in the uk, very similar. The traditional playbook is okay, at a certain scale, we're Just going to keep on building our own capabilities in house. Why take a different approach of working with suppliers?

[C]

I think with Monolith, it's a perfect example of you could not build Monolith without having a decentralized manufacturing operation. This new watch that we recently released, you just couldn't make in Switzerland. There's no supply chain that exists to produce some of these more exotic materials or technologies or the ISO standards that we need to hit to meet, like aerospace specs. So I think it's essential for what we want to do with this new chapter. We're really approaching Barrel Hand. It's a technology company, and we're building tools for the next chapter, space exploration. So we need to completely to. To stay in, like these traditional manufacturing hubs is only going to slow us down. And I think there's advantages and strengths that they have, like certain components, like maybe it's hands, for example, where the aerospace industry is not going to be suitable for that. But by and large, our supply chain for this new project is completely outside of the traditional hubs and is what allowed us to innovate and push the ball forward towards creating something that. Yeah, but why not survive those environments?

[A]

Why not just do it yourself? I mean, every other watchmaker who's like, I've had some success. I'm outside, like, all right, I'm now going to invest in another CNC machine and another lathe, and I'm going to hire more people, and I'm going to do this all in house, and I'm going to 3D print things myself.

[B]

And part of that is an external pressure, right? I mean, how many times have we sat at a watch show or someone asks, like, what movement is in this watch? And Gabe's famous, I can't deal with this response to that anymore.

[A]

Is, what movement do you want it to be?

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

My point being that there is this, like, trained obsession externally that, like, if. If something hasn't been made by the maker, then it's somehow less than. So I wonder also, as you. As you think about your answer, like, how does that figure into it?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And it's actually exactly the business model that we chose to be in is we don't want to be tied to a specific technology. We want to be very neutral. Because, for example, with metal 3D printing, what was state of the art seven years ago when we were doing project one is no longer state of the art now. And so if we had dumped $2 million into these metal printing machines, we couldn't pivot easily to the new kind of standards that are emerging now to build Monolith, for example. So the same is true for just about any component that we're sourcing on Monolith and the tools beyond. We need the state of the art and we want to remain neutral with our partners and our suppliers and our technology. Another example would be like the nanofish technology that we have on the back of the watch to create our memory disk. It's like a nano engraving, like long term data storage. And it is absolutely state of the art. There's no one else in the world that can produce it. The company's based in the US and right now they're the only people in town that can really make this. But if there's another technology that comes around that can increase the data compression into that, or they can maybe make it last even longer, we want to remain flexible. So it's kind of a strategic play where we don't have to feel married to any specific technology. And the moment that there's a new technology that suits us better, we want to learn and adapt with it. So if we had dumped a lot of money into these different tech and done it in house, we would have kind of suffocated ourself in the process.

[B]

So I want to, I want to talk about that too, because the way that you've orchestrated your business as it comes to life, and this is how I see it externally, so correct me if I'm wrong. You know, through the monolith is a really fascinating kind of par.

[C]

What's the right word for it?

[B]

It's like two points in opposition, you know, in a sense where you have a extraordinarily modern object, nanofiche, by the way, for those who are not familiar, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's essentially extremely fine engraving such that you could fit. What is it like a 10,000 or 100,000 pages on a dime? What's the method?

[C]

Yeah, you can do about a thousand pages. Like we have an entire book. You can do about. Yeah, like a thousand pages on something the quarter sized.

[B]

So that's a significant amount of data stored in a very, very small space. But it is, it is using highly, highly, highly modern technology to store data in a very traditional analog method.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

In the same way that, as I recall and I. And again, I'm seeing through the haze of beers talking to years in the past, because we were talking, you know, about this over those beers, but essentially the concept of using an analog Watch in space is very, is very intentional. And the monolith itself presents. And I think you would put this to me, the idea of like a quartz watch in space is sort of a inevitable failure because at a certain point in time you will, I suppose until we get to power cells or something to that effect that, you know, you will run out of batteries at a certain point or if they, if something goes wrong on the circuit board, you're kind of cooked in a way that's slightly different than being able to use additive or reductive CNC or some other process like that to be able to create the spare part that you need to make the object that you have on your wrist continue to live on. Did I get that accurately?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. I think there's like two points to unpack with that. There's the first part of like, you know, why, why mechanics in space? And I think it's funny, we've kind of come full circle because our approach from the beginning wasn't like, oh, let's stick to tradition and make a mechanical watch for the next chapter of space exploration. We really looked at like atomic clock systems, quartz systems. We looked at more exotic escapements like silicon, like what Zenith was doing a few years back. Frederic Constant is also doing these kind of like monolithic kind of like escapements out of silicon. So I mean, we looked at all of it. And it's funny, in the end, as we were doing more research and talking to our suppliers in the aerospace industry, we learned that like insulating electronics is really hard to do for one. And things like an LCD screen, it's a liquid crystal display. So if you're hitting -120 Celsius during a spacewalk, like that's going to freeze up your batteries degrade quickly in those temperatures. And even if you're insulating all those systems now you also have a circuit board on board that's prone to single event errors, which is basically solar radiation or like an ionizing particle hits the board and it can actually flip a bit and corrupt the data on board. So there's actually a lot of reasons that we ended up back to kind of like traditional mechanics. But it wasn't like out of like this purest like point of tradition. It was really out of first principles. So it's really cool that there's kind of this new emerging use case for traditional mechanics. And yeah, I think that's super cool that there's like a real use case. It's not for luxury, it's not for tradition. It's really the best mechanical redundancy for timekeeping in space exploration. And of course they're going to have atomic clocks on the ISS and their main kind of like electronics that keep track. But in the event of failures, like we've seen in Apollo 13, for example, having mechanical redundancies are really critical because there's only so many backups before you need something to rely on. One of my favorite movies growing up,

[B]

by the way, side note.

[A]

Hey, it's Gabe. Openwork is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription. If you'd like to support the show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking. You can find our channel@collective horology.com YouTube and of course you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands along with our Latest merch@colusive horology.com thanks for listening and for your support.

[B]

Now back to the show, but going back to that. So that's, that's a product choice, right? So it's a product choice driven by a deep belief and a deep commitment and all of those coming together, you know, in a way of making things a commitment to modern technology, a North Star around it. In many ways it answers a question that we tend to ask watchmakers when we're considering working with them, which is why does this need to exist? And it's a question that, you know, some people take offense to and some people I think get really excited about answering. I suspect you fall into, into the latter camp. But, but what I am curious about though is, you know, barrel hand within our client base and we, you know, we only cater to independent collectors is certainly a known entity, but you're still very much, I think you have a lot of headroom in terms of growth, opportunity and awareness for sure. But you also have never participated, unless I'm wrong, in a lot of the community sort of oriented watch fairs or events or things like that. There's a little bit of, you know, outsider vibes coming in that regard. And I'm curious, is that an intentional positioning choice? Why, like how do you think about engaging with watch collectors in general and talking to them? Because you operate in and your marketing and your positioning is very different than what we tend to see from a lot of your peers. And I'm just curious to understand the intentionality behind that.

[C]

Yeah, I think we're approaching it from a tech perspective. So for us, we're a technology company first. The product we're developing happens to be a.

[B]

We're an AI customer success platform first.

[A]

Well, we were. We were a mobile success platform, but now, you know.

[B]

But yeah, but the technology's moved on.

[A]

AI success platform.

[B]

I'm sorry, Go ahead, please.

[C]

No, no, you're good. No. So I think, you know, to answer your question, a lot of our existing customer base so far with Monolith has been coming outside of the watch industry. So we're also trying to understand this new market that's being created. And you could say, obviously it's people with discretionary income. They can afford this piece. They must be interested in watches to a degree if they're buying this, because most of them maybe aren't going to space anytime soon. But I think the approach and the way that they think about it feels like something outside of the traditional hub.

[B]

See, that's a really interesting insight, right, because one of the things that we often talk about in general as members of the independent watch community is how we grow that tent. And I think that there's this perception sometimes on the business side of independence that, like, if another brand comes in or another door opens or retail door opens, that it's. It's just going to be a snake eating its own tail.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like, it's just. It's just cannibalizing an existing audience. And I think in fairness, to a degree in the past that that has been true where there is like a core group of like 10,000. I'm making this number up, you know, like hardcore watch nerds that are willing to become patrons of independent watches and they sort of oscillate between different brands and different retailers. But of course, that's not. You can't grow that per se. Like, from just from an industry standpoint, I'm thinking about, like, you know, just the. The total number of revenue generated from. From independent watches. So there are these outliers that exist that I think have found ways. And tell me if I'm mischaracterizing you, but it does sound like you found a way to sort of open a back door for people who are taking their passion and the expression of that passion is coming out into watchmaking as opposed to the other way around. I guess to a certain degree you could say that maybe we see that with like, seal instruments a too, you know, where it's like, it's like it's a different. A different audience that, you know, their needs are manifested in this watch, but they weren't necessary. But there's. They may not have started by looking for what they ended up buying. And that in turn, you know, could widen the tent. The real question for me. And you don't have retailers.

[C]

Correct. So far it's all dtc.

[B]

So the question for me there is an interesting one, which is let's say that there is somebody who discovers you through a more traditional aerospace or engineering pathway. Does their interest in watchmaking terminate at barrel hand or do you ignite an interest in watchmaking through their, you know, through. Through what you've created? I don't know the answer to that, but it's a really interesting question I'd love to explore.

[C]

I think it opens up a pathway for it. A lot of the existing customers that we have and the people that are really resonating with Monolith, many of them, it's their first watch, which is kind of crazy. If, if you're coming from watch collector perspective, it's like, sure, yeah, buy an independent, like, lesser known name brand just as your first watch. It would be like, you know, you're going for the Rolex or the Omegas. And I think what's cool is that at least the feeling that I get is that the whole brand identity that the watch industry is currently built off of is unsexy to this demographic. So if you think about luxury and heritage, that's basically the entire watch industry right there. There's different things. Nice finishes, crafts, savoir faire. Yeah, yeah. So there's all these kind of like reasons why brands exist. But a lot of it kind of goes around luxury and heritage. And so for myself included, and I think a lot of the customers that we've seen so far, they're kind of like repulsed by that. And maybe it's like the antithesis to that where we're building something that's also like hyper engineered. It's a very precision craft. You could say it's an art also in the way that watchmaking traditionally is. But there's kind of like this real world use case and it's being approached from a very like engineering first thing. So for these people that are getting into it, maybe a gold Rolex is not what is what they think of watchmaking, right? They think of just kind of like luxury and prestige. And so if we package something completely new from outside the industry and we're giving it like a real world use case, maybe they're not going to space with it, but all of a sudden it clicks for them. Where they see that, oh, this is, you know, insane engineering, like a hypercar or something like that that they're probably never going to actually track. But the idea that all this thought and energy went into it is also kind of the core of what traditional watchmaking is about. But now we're packaging it in something new and sexy. That has not been the lens that they saw watches for a long time. So I think there's something there where we're still refining and figuring out that demographic. But it's cool that this customer base that we had dreamed of, of who would be collecting something like this has been, like, spot on so far in terms of the people that have bought in so far.

[A]

This is a really important point. And, you know, Asher knows this. I think you kind of alluded to it. But when we're in Switzerland and we're meeting with brands, and these are brands that some of them we carry, and, you know, many of them were just meeting and having, you know, early or exploratory conversations, but they're just getting to know because we are curious about them. We like their stuff. We typically hear, you know, two. Two things from them when it comes to this, you know, conversation of marketing and what a brand stands for and the audience are trying to attract. And that's, on the one hand, of course, we hear from everyone. Well, we want to grow our audience. You know, we. We want to find new collectors.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And on the other hand, what we hear and see from them when it comes to their marketing and the way they talk about their brand and they present themselves, it ends up being all about luxury, heritage, and handwork, you know, finest finishing, the savoir faire, which, of

[B]

course, are the table stakes for a 40 or $50,000 watch.

[A]

But I think what you're saying here is really important. And shockingly, a fair number of people in the watch industry listen to this podcast. Switzerland is one of the top markets for this podcast. I think what you're saying here is really important, which is if you want to attract a different audience from your competitors. And, Asher, to your point, if you want to grow the tent, if you don't just want to be a snake eating its tail, you have to be willing to be different. It's easy to find safety in talking about hand finishing and craftsmanship and luxury and heritage, and that's all fine, but it's not going to fundamentally differentiate your brand. It's not going to grow your business. You have to be willing to be different. And it's. It's shocking to Me, I know I'm going on a bit of a soapbox here, but it's just shocking to me how rare that is in the industry. And of course in the examples even in within Switzerland where someone's willing to do that. Take mbnf. Yeah, take urework. You know, these are brands that have found success because they're willing to be different. Yeah.

[B]

But after, but of course after decades and they were doing it within the construct of the modern Swiss watch industry, so there were still like externalized pressures that I think were defining them for themselves in some ways, you know, before they had the chance to do it. It's like, well, it's also, it's also

[A]

acknowledged to be risky. Right. You know, like whatever work did. And you know, your point about Max is well taken. You know, MB and F struggled for many, many years. It wasn't the vast majority of its existence wasn't the darling that it is today. So it's easy to say, you know, now Max, Booster and MBNF are a huge success, but for a long time it was a business that, you know, lived day to day. Essentially. Max has talked about this and, and that's risky and that's, that's just, that's hard to do.

[B]

It's. And you may, you, I'm curious what your reaction to this will be, but ironically, the one brand that I do think actually you may share some values with is Hublot. And the reason why I say that is, you know, it's not aesthetic. I mean, obviously completely different esthetic points of view. But Hublot I don't think really cares one way or the other whether the watch enthusiast community is interested in their watches at all. I don't think that they mean that from a dismissive standpoint. But like they, they have their own thing. Material curiosity is a component of it. They know that the people that they're selling to are probably hublot collectors, not watch collectors. And you know, they don't care about the opinion of the watch industry. I remember we approached them years and years ago about doing a collaboration and they were, they were perfectly polite and lovely people. But the basic gist of it was like, yeah, I don't really care about getting independent collectors interested in Hublot.

[C]

Like what?

[B]

Like, eh, who cares? And it was just so interesting to me because I'd never seen somebody in a corporate watch role take that kind of a position before. And Hublot is similar. They don't participate in major watch shows, they don't do a ton of, you know, outreach in the traditional marketing sense, you know, you're more likely to see them on the soccer pitch than you are, you know, Watch Time New York, for example. And it's been super effective for them. And what I find really interesting about that is while the, you know, there's a segment of the collector industry that, that, that will sneer at that brand. I mean, like, the level of, of like just overall aggression and negativity towards Hublot is, is kind of wild. And, and we could, we could go on a whole other conversation about why that is, but that has nothing to do with the bottom line from, from, you know, for all intents and purposes, a very successful business. And I think LVMH's interest in it is not just its revenue, but also its ability to look in the other corner from a, from a revenue and a marketing standpoint. Yeah. So I find that interesting. I'm curious for your thoughts on that comparison.

[C]

Yeah, no, I think you guys are spot on with. I think MBNF and Urwerk is also a good example of like when they came out like to the stage in the early 2000s. I mean, no one was doing anything like that at the time. Right. So no, it probably also got poo pooed. They barely, you know, took off with it and it took a while to establish.

[B]

Oh, one of one of Urwerk's first dealers in the United States had to buy the gold for the 103 for

[C]

that because they didn't have the money for it. Yeah, yeah. And, and that was like a make or break moment for them. And now it's like arguably, at least for me, that's probably their most classic, like iconic piece of their collection.

[B]

Just believe it is the most traded independent watch in history.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it's a cool piece, but this is what I mean, where you know, these brands were doing something different and it allowed them to separate themselves, but it wasn't also like immediate success. And I think it's funny to me that the entire watch industry is more or less around luxury and heritage when there's so many different flavors and perspectives that is going into it. There's tool watches as well, but it's still kind of, I would say decorative to a degree. And I think there's a lot of cool use cases where you could really make like a very rugged tool. There's people making dive watches, so I guess there's niches within that. But what's crazy to me is like you have these huge brands like Rolex or Omega that could really do amazing innovations. They could really like, you know, create a new standard. Aerospace is a great example. I, I'm shocked that there's not really any serious players so far that has tried to build a tool from the ground up for this next chapter of space exploration. And I think it's for two reasons. One, the brand identity is so wrapped around luxury and heritage that if Omega or Rolex came out with some really like concept piece, it would almost be like antithesis of what their brand's about. So I don't think they could execute it in a way where their community would understand it. The second reason?

[B]

Well, in fair, in fairness, IWC is doing that right now to a degree.

[C]

But even when you kind of hear how they talk about it, it's, it's still marketing. Right. They're, they're only able to see this frontier as a marketing perspective. And I see it's hard for them to understand that there's a real world use case or a new niche that's kind of unfolding. But they're unable to see past the marketing lens because everything in watchmaking for the last 50 years since the quartz crisis has basically been storytelling. So the idea that there's a real world emerging use case is like going over the heads a little bit. And I think over time we'll see more brands, I hope to see more people really like give it a proper go and, and try to execute for this environment because it's incredibly harsh and there's some real engineering to be done there. So it would be cool to see all those talented minds and the resources they have really put to it executing something for this frontier. But I don't think you said there

[B]

was a second, a second thing. What's the second thing?

[C]

Well, the second thing is the infrastructure. Right. So we were talking about manufacturing. You just couldn't build monolith in the traditional watch hubs. You need access to additive manufacturing, you need access to all these different technologies, aerospace standards that are not familiar. So it's kind of like, you know, for them they would have to come to the US or maybe other industrial hubs where I was trying to go to Switzerland for their know how in watchmaking. They would have to really step outside of their comfort zone to seek for the technologies and know how to that is outside of their industry. Because fundamentally monolith is being approached from an aerospace tool more than it is a watchmaking kind of project.

[B]

Yeah, so that's, I think, I think you touched on something really fascinating there, which is you through the creation of a product like Monolith. And by the way, for those who are unfamiliar with it, go check it out. You can see photos of it. Is it is objectively, like, forget about every. Everything that we've been talking about. It is. It is a objectively beautiful and awesome watch, so you should just look at it. But obviously it's.

[C]

It's.

[B]

The sum of its parts are profoundly interesting. And that, to me, is an interesting provocation to collectors and to the business in general, which is, you know, you mentioned heritage and luxury, right? Well, why is heritage and luxury so critical to the Swiss watch industry? It's because it saved their ass in the sports, in the quartz crisis.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like switching to. To luxury as the defining element of a mechanical watch is created a valid counterpoint to the better and cheaper and more accurate watches, better being qualitative in terms of accuracy, that were coming out of Japan in the 1970s, but they haven't pivoted from that in 60 years. So when you make something like monolith or, you know, we look at anyone else who's taking engineering risk in the world of watchmaking, it also forces collectors in the industry to change their method of analysis and the vocabulary that they use when they're talking about what a good watch is. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One thing that that, like, watch media did and is certainly aware of this, and, you know, I think even Ben's talked about this from Hodinkee, is that by focusing so heavily on one element of watchmaking, finishing and complexity, that it's sort of. It is metastasized into a level and obsession that people sometimes, I think, miss the forest for the trees on, because they're so obsessed with, like, what is the movement. What even is the movement in a monolith?

[C]

It's a modified solita.

[B]

Right? So how many people would dismiss the work that you've done purely because you chose a modified solita movement, when in fact, they're completely missing the forest for the trees for what it is that you're building. And that requires a completely different structure, like an analytical structure as a collector to be able to look at what you're doing and see the value in it. And to me, when you start, when you take that and you apply it to, like, the industry, it's the same thing, right? They're saying, like, what are the. What are the points that I use to describe my product? There's the story, there's the material, there's the finish. That. Right. And if you think about it, so much of it is artifice. I mean, how. Like, let's look at Omega, right? And a Speedmaster, an automatic Speedmaster like is complete virtually. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm 99% positive is completely machine decorated. But what is the purpose of all that decoration but to create the artifice and suggestion of hot horology based off of these two pillars, when in reality the accuracy of that movement has no impact based on the, the, the, the. The machine made finish on it. Handmade finish is a different scenario, but the machine made it's one thing yet somebody will hold that in higher regard than something that is engineered to the tease but for the movement. So it's, it's an, it is a challenge both to the industry and how they talk about what makes a good watch. And it's a challenge, I think to collectors when they evaluate something and say like, not necessarily a checklist of, you know, I can't pay this much because it has a solita. Like, I think everyone who listens to this podcast knows how we feel about that sentence, but rather the second point which is, okay, why does this watch cost $9,000? I guess I should try and understand that and then getting to a place of oh, like I get it, I understand what the engineering is and I see where we're at. And I could get. It could be a hamster on a wheel inside of this watch and it wouldn't matter to me. Although that would be a terribly ineffective space watch. But it would, it would, you know, it would be utterly irrelevant to the point of demonstrating, you know, how, how to evaluate value in the future. So, yeah, that's a really, I think, good provocation for, for me as a buyer, both, you know, personally and professionally too. When I look at something and, and I, I think about, you know, cost versus value.

[C]

Yeah. I think to your point, that's something that we've been figuring out also is how to unpack this language, this new way of maybe approaching what we're building and someone put it well where they were saying, you know, like if you look at the traditional watch industry, it's also not that far in how it's communicated. They're very focused on guilloche dials and hand finishes. Whereas for us it's maybe, you know, like 3D printed Skalmoloy or nanofish technology or that we're using gaskets that would be used on the International Space Station. It's like, it's all these things that it's like, it's just a new approach, but it's also a Lot of attention to detail, a lot of thought. It's just being approached through a different lens. So instead of focusing on finishes and aesthetics, we're really focused on the engineering. But you still get a lot of novel executions and craftsmanship that comes out of it. It's just being approached in a different way. And to your point on the movements too, it's funny because I think, you know, as we went on our journey to find the best movement, it's funny that we ended up with something that, you know, we had to think of what is the most reliable engine for this environment. And we looked at exotics like these silicon escapements we use. Looked at like very kind of state of the art escapements. But in the end, you're actually putting something into space that's largely untested. Maybe there's a hundred in the wild. Like, we don't want an artisanal, handmade movement. We need something that's super reliable and rugged.

[B]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but duct tape saved the command module in Apollo 13.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exactly. Things like this. And so, you know, starting with something that is kind of the gold standard. I mean, they have 20 years of development. It's based off ETAs. If you go even further, the SW300, SW200, and then the ETA. So there's like over 20 years of development to continue refining. And they've made millions of them. So it's a lot of data that you can show how reliable this engine is. And then we just take that platform and upgrade it for anti magnetism temperatures, precision chronometry, like all these things you can kind of add to further refine the platform. But you want to start with something reliable, not something artisanal and handmade.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it requires you to be open minded in the same way, Asher saying, you know, we as enthusiasts and collectors need to be open minded and ask ourselves, well, why does this have a Solita movement? And you know, what else is happening here beyond the movement itself? And it sounds like you went on that sort of hero's journey yourself in the process. Because I'm sure there's part of you that's like, I want to innovate. I want to do something different. I want to do the best possible thing for this use case and not make any assumptions or fall back on any assumptions or anything that's tried and true for its own sake. But yet you end up, at least in the case of a movement. Yeah, something that is. That is tried and true requires an Open book.

[B]

That's a really good point too, because I think a lot of blind spots that collectors have revolve around this concept. But by using a common movement, you know, G100 or A, you know, A300 series and Salina movement or whatever, is that that's somehow a cop out or a mistake versus a deliberate choice. And that is also sort of an interesting pathway to go down. And you see this with like armchair commentators who, you know, who will tell you that, like, well, I went on ebay and I saw a movement for 300 bucks. Okay, well, you should buy that and make a watch around it and then have a conversation. But the, my point being, I don't think people ever really take the moment to say, is this deliberate? Like, was there a reason that this was the gasket chosen, the alloy chosen, the movement chosen? And if, if the answer is, well, I chose something because I know it won't fail, should that not be the end of the conversation? And that's a rhetorical question. I don't know. But it is one that I do think that, that there is a large segment of dedicated collectors for whom it is a blind spot. And I, I'm not, I'm not throwing stones here because it, it was for me for a very long time until I started to rethink it. And that's only a relatively recent development for me. So I, I, I do think it's,

[C]

it's a place where we have a

[B]

lot of opportunity, for sure.

[C]

I also want to, that, you know, the, the platform is, is a continuation. It's, it's an ongoing process. And so, you know, right now we're doing time only. But of course the next step will be adding functionality to this. We just want to build a reliable platform. So, you know, Chronograph is probably in the works. There's other features based on our conversations with the EVA operators of what they would need in a tool like this. And that's also why we're opening access to all the source files. So all the 3D models, all the CAD that went into the production unit, we're making publicly available so people can pick it apart, provide feedback. If there's engineers out there that want to say, like, hey, like you could actually do this to improve it. It's space is a collaborative platform and we want to keep that conversation. So if someone does down the road say, hey, there's a movement out there that actually meets the criteria, even better, we're super open and we want to keep upgrading it.

[B]

So before we Wrap here, because we're coming up on on time. But I'm, I'm deeply grateful because it's a fascinating conversation. Let's talk just a little bit about how people can get your watches, because it's a slightly different process. And as I recall, when you announced Monolith, you had this really interesting reveal where you did it kind of in stages. And as you revealed, you also kept encouraging people to, hey, look, if you want this, here's your opportunity to hop on the bus. And if you choose at any point you don't want it, oh, Biggie, I'll give you your money back. We're all good. Which is also a very different thing because candidly, like, you are fronting the money to produce all of these watches. If somebody bails on you, like, you know one person, it is what it is. 10, 20, 30 people, like, that's a material impact on your business. And unless I'm mistaken, you don't have any ready inventory at this point.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

So we actually delivered the first batch in April. So we had, like, a full customer set that we delivered in April. These were kind of like early adopters that they'd, you know, been following the product.

[B]

Shout out to Elon Ben Joseph.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, he's a good one. So we had like, an awesome, like, customer base that was kind of like, you could say early adopters and like, helping in the development. And then we launched. So a lot of these customers didn't even have, like, product photos to go off of before they. They bought it and received it. They were kind of, like, seeing it for the first time sight unseen. So now we're. We're gearing up for batch two. So we were able to launch with all the. The magazines, and now we're in development, so we're taking in orders or reservations, you could say it's fully refundable on our website. And we're gonna start deliveries in Q4, so end of this year. So it is kind of a. A longer turnaround time.

[B]

And do you want to be able to have in stock watches? Like, is that part of it or are you always gonna.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. This is, this is the, the path forward. We're continuing to scale, so we got way more orders than we anticipated from the start. So the momentum's been really good when we launched, especially since we're kind of like, in this new niche. Some people don't understand it, some people really identify with it. So it's cool to see how people are still unpacking it. But the goal is to have it in stock. Right now we're just scaling production to meet that demand. But by the time we finish up batch two we should be in a position where we can kind of deliver as as orders are coming in.

[B]

Krell, I'm really appreciative of you taking the time to join us and what you're building is incredibly interesting, very different and I think worthy of attention from the industry as a whole. So let's, let's keep in touch and I definitely would love to check in again as the business continues to grow and as new clients come through and of course as new watches get made.

[C]

Thank you guys. I appreciate you having me on.

[A]

Thanks Karel and thank you for listening. Openwork is of course a production of Collective Horology. You can find us [e-mail] and you can find our guest Karel bashand [e-mail] to get in touch with your questions, feedback, suggestions. You know we love that stuff. Just email podcastollectiveherology.com.