Watch Groups Are Slimming Down – Brand Exits, Consolidation and a Return to Focus

Summary

Podcast Summary:
Openwork: Inside the Watch Industry
Episode: Watch Groups Are Slimming Down – Brand Exits, Consolidation and a Return to Focus
Hosts: Asher Rapkin & Gabe Reilly (Collective Horology)
Date: February 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode offers an unfiltered, behind-the-scenes discussion of significant restructuring within the Swiss watch industry. Asher and Gabe examine recent and rumored brand sales by luxury groups like Richemont and LVMH, exploring motivations, potential impacts, and what these moves signal about industry trends. The conversation moves between confirmed events (Richemont selling Baume & Mercier), widespread rumors (LVMH shopping Zenith), and implications for watch fairs like Watches & Wonders, including shifting brand presences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Richemont Sells Baume & Mercier (B&M) to Damiani Group (03:00-10:30)

• Confirmation of Industry Predictions:
  The hosts recall their 2024 prediction of upcoming brand reshuffling in the industry, now materializing with Richemont selling Baume & Mercier to Italian jeweler Damiani.

  • “Richemont has shed Baume and Mercier and they have sold them to an Italian luxury group, the Damiani Group.” (02:30, B)

• Logic of Portfolio Slimming:
  Richemont’s move reflects a focus on higher-margin, high-prestige brands (Cartier, Jaeger-LeCoultre, Panerai, Lange, Vacheron) and a retreat from crowded, less-profitable mid-market segments.

  • “If I were Richemont…this is the right idea. They've been putting their effort and their energy into the higher end.” (05:31, A)

• Challenges of B&M’s Price Segment:
  B&M occupies the tough $1,000-$5,000 “mid-range” slot, with Montblanc and other brands also fighting for the same customers. Richemont tried numerous product refreshes (e.g., Riviera, spin-off ‘Baume’ line) but couldn't elevate B&M’s status in the group.

  • “In the end, I think it just demonstrates that brand just never had the juice to do what it needed to do for it to have a seat at the corporate table.” (05:18, A)

• Transition Complexities:
  The sale is complex due to movement supply (ValFleurier, Richemont’s own movement manufacturer) and intertwined logistics, requiring at least a 12-month transition phase.

  • “There's a 12 month...period where Richemont will continue to provide transition services: logistics, back office, all these sorts of things.” (10:37, B)

• What’s Next for B&M?
  The Damiani acquisition could reorient B&M toward a more fashion/jewelry position, akin to what Bulgari did with its watches—provided they pursue bold product changes.

  Notable Quote:

  "Does Baume & Mercier sort of become like a...baby Bulgari?...You could end up taking this brand into more of a fashion and jewelry direction..." (08:06, B)

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2. Holding Company Structures and Industry Strategy Shifts (12:00-17:00)

• Shifts Away from Centralization:
  Richemont restructured internal reporting, making each brand (maison) more autonomous and directly accountable.

  • “The new CEO...broke that group up and said, no, each maison is now reporting to the CEO directly and responsible for their own P&L.” (11:32, B)

• Trade-Offs: Autonomy vs. Synergy:
  There’s a loss of group-wide customer experience (e.g., CRM systems) when brands are siloed, though this move gives maisons more creative control and distinct identities.

  • “If I’m a salesperson at Lange…and you go into a Jaeger-LeCoultre and you’re like ‘Hi, I have invested significantly in Richemont’ and they're like...‘your name is what?’” (13:15, A)

• Cultural Differences:
  Despite shared systems and ownership, Richemont brands have markedly different internal cultures—more than the hosts expected based on past big-company experience.

  • “Culturally they are extremely different. IWC has a very different culture from Montblanc, from Jaeger, from Vacheron. Never spoken to the good folks at Baume & Mercier, however!” (13:56, B)

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3. LVMH & Zenith Sale Rumors – Denials and Industry Context (16:00-22:00)

• Rumors Clarified:
  There are credible but publicly denied rumors that LVMH is shopping Zenith. The hosts acknowledge the denials, but point to multiple trade reports suggesting LVMH is at least exploring options.

• Different Situation than B&M:
  Unlike B&M, Zenith is highly differentiated, with clear designs and a distinct identity. The motivation for a sale would hinge on group focus or financial performance, not lack of brand clarity.

  • “Zenith does not have that problem. Zenith is highly differentiated, very clearly articulated brand, very clear designs.” (17:48, A)

• The ‘I Love You, But’ Divorce Metaphor:
  Asher uses a memorable metaphor to contrast the two brand exits:

  "Zenith is like, ‘I love you and we need to get a divorce, but I think you're an incredible person. This just wasn't the right match.’ Maybe, if we run with that metaphor to Baume & Mercier, it's like, ‘we never should have gotten married anyway.’" (19:55, A; 00:00, A)

• Group Integration Complexity:
  Zenith makes and supplies movements to other LVMH houses; the same sort of deep integration complicates divorcing brand from group, raising vendor and IP questions.

  • “What are you buying? It's all tied up in agreements with third party vendors...shared intellectual property.” (21:03, A)

• Financial Reality vs. Industry Moves:
  Despite LVMH’s public focus on watchmaking (e.g., reviving Gerald Genta, Daniel Roth, and investing in movement makers), internal financial pressures (rumored years of losses at Zenith) may push deals.

  • “Zenith has been loss making for years. And so it's adding to the pressure from the executives to sort of do something.” (27:14, B)

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4. Grand Strategy: LVMH’s Stakes and the Richemont Metagame (24:30-28:42)

• Bernard Arnault’s chessboard:
  Arnault (LVMH head) holds a stake in Richemont and is always rumored to covet Cartier/VCA. Are Richemont’s trims making an acquisition more palatable?

  • “Are they setting themselves up for an acquisition here?...LVMH has significantly beefed up watchmaking. So the fact that they'd be looking to shop Zenith...is surprising.” (25:31, B)

• Speculation vs. Reality:
  The hosts emphasize that only the companies have the real financials; public narratives don’t always match corporate priorities.

  • “We don’t have access to the books...corporations still do corporation stuff…” (27:09, A)

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5. Watches & Wonders – Brand Moves and the Symbolism of Booth Placement (29:10-36:42)

• Audemars Piguet (AP) Joins Watches & Wonders:
  AP, previously absent, finally joins but is placed in a less prominent “kids’ table” upstairs location, previously a VIP ‘dining room’. Chanel also takes over Bell & Ross’s old spot.

  • “They're sort of being sent to the kids table.” (29:47, B)
  • “I can't help but find it amusing that, like, the spot that you couldn't get a table at is, of course, the place that AP leaves.” (32:00, A)

• Brand Politics and Physical Space:
  Placement at the fair is highly political and strategic, and sometimes reflects shifting pecking orders. Rerouting of traffic and shuttle buses, IKEA-style, guides press and buyers toward less prominent zones.

  • “It's like IKEA…you have to walk all the way through the different things…you walk through the plants before you leave.” (34:00, B/A)

• Moser’s Promotion to Main Hall (36:28–44:55):
  H. Moser & Cie. moves from the independent ‘Carré’ section to the main exhibition floor, taking over Montblanc’s old space. Hautlence, its sister indie, stays behind. The move is framed as a sign of “financial strength and renown” but draws criticism for potentially abandoning the independent/watch-collector ethos.

  • “Moser’s always been really ballsy…and extremely creative, unorthodox. Maverick brand, truly. Now they’re moving among the staid, traditional brands.” (38:22-38:34, A/B)

  • Notable Quote:

    “If they start acting like some of the major brands to the people who brought them to the dance, that ain’t going to go well.” (42:15, A)

  • Critique of PR Narrative:

    “What’s missing from that? Creativity, exciting products. So like the watches themselves.” (43:09, B)

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6. Departures and Independent Scene (44:56–50:30)

• More Movers & Shakers:
  Montblanc leaves Watches & Wonders (not the Richemont group), Baume & Mercier stays (for now, likely for sale optics), Bell & Ross exits, smaller Indies like Speake-Marin and Armin Strom change participation.

  • “Montblanc doesn’t need Watches & Wonders the way Baume & Mercier does.” (48:05, B)
  • Satellite fairs (Time to Watches, Geneva Watch Days) are increasingly important options, especially for indies looking for exposure without the high cost.

• Industry Restructuring Cycles:
  Executive reshufflings, cost focus, and competitive shows subtly reshape the scene year by year—a dynamic the hosts promise to continue covering.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Metaphor on Brand Exits:

  “Zenith is like, ‘I love you and we need to get a divorce...you're an incredible person. This just wasn't the right match.’...Baume & Mercier...it's like ‘we never should have gotten married anyway.’”
  — Asher Rapkin, (00:00, 19:55)

• On Richemont’s Strategy:

  “If I were Richemont…this is the right idea. They've clearly been putting their effort and their energy into the higher end.” — Asher (05:31)

• On Group Culture:

  “These organizations are truly extremely different culturally....I was sort of expecting that in our dealings with different brands from Richemont, and I’ll tell you...the brands are very, very different.” — Gabe (13:56)

• Critique of Moser's Messaging:

  “What’s missing from that [press release]? Creativity, exciting products. So like the watches themselves.” — Gabe (43:09)

• On Brand Loyalty:

  “If they start acting like some of the major brands to the people who brought them to the dance, that ain’t going to go well.” — Asher (42:15)

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Important Timestamps

• Richemont and Baume & Mercier Sale: 03:47–10:37
• Portfolio Strategy & Organizational Shifts: 11:28–17:00
• LVMH & Zenith (Sale Rumors): 16:00–22:00, 24:45–27:14
• Bernard Arnault Stakes in Richemont: 25:12–28:42
• AP Joins Watches & Wonders / Booth Politics: 29:17–34:46
• Moser Moves Up, Out of Indie Space: 36:01–44:55
• Montblanc, Bell & Ross, Indie Show Dynamics: 44:56–50:48

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Summary Takeaways

• The watch industry is starting to see the kinds of brand consolidation and strategic exits the hosts predicted—though everything still moves at a “glacial pace.”
• Richemont’s sale of Baume & Mercier to Damiani marks a new era of portfolio sharpening, focusing on higher-end maisons and letting go of underperformers in saturated segments.
• LVMH’s rumored contemplation of selling Zenith (despite denials) highlights the financial, emotional, and operational complexity of brand realignment in luxury groups.
• Moves at Watches & Wonders—from big-name arrivals to indie promotions and departures—mirror the shifting sands of power and prestige in watchmaking, with implications for both brand identity and collector relationships.
• Expect more behind-the-scenes movements, rumors, and realignments as luxury conglomerates seek to sharpen their focus and maximize value in a tougher global market.

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For listeners:
This episode provides valuable context for understanding why and how major watch brands change hands, leave fairs, or reposition themselves in the market. Whether you’re a collector, industry insider, or casual enthusiast, the discussion balances behind-the-scenes analysis with lively banter and clear explanations of an otherwise opaque industry evolution.

Transcript

[A]

You know, like, to me, to use a really bizarre metaphor, it's like Zenith is like, I love you and we need to get a divorce. But like, I think you're an incredible person. This just wasn't the right match. You know what I mean? Maybe, maybe, you know, if we run with that metaphor to Baume and Mercier, it's like, we never should have gotten married anyway. Like, what were we doing?

[B]

Yeah, you know? This is openwork, A look inside the watch industry, a podcast from Collective Horology. I'm Gabe Riley, co founder of Collective.

[A]

And I'm Asher Apkin, co founder of Collective. Collective Horology is an independent watch retailer based in Southern California. And we carry a wide range of independent watches, including Mink Atelier Wen, Karl Suki and Zone and more. To learn more about us and check out our available inventory, visit collective horology.com

[B]

A few notes on Ming Notes on Atelier Wen Atelier Wen and Carl Suki Carl Suki Ming recently reintroduced both the Bluefin and Ooni dive watches. They are currently available at least, and these are watches that have been obviously well regarded, beloved, high in demand. And they've been reintroduced for 2026. They're of course available@collective horology.com and then Atelier Wen. Likewise, they have just released, it's technically their 2025 MilesMe version of the Perception with a beautiful Peter Sight dial, but that is available to order now@collective horology.com that has a limited window for ordering. So if you're into the Perception, if you're into Petersight, if you are into these watches, they will be available through Atelier Wen and through us until fe 5th, the evening of at least in the United States, because there are international time zones that get crossed with that release. And then finally Carl Suki and Zone. We recently just published a watches of the watches of Carl Suki and Zone and that one was a fun one to record. We talk a little bit about the history of the brand, but really focus the modern brand, the design philosophy that drives it and what just makes those watches so cool, so beguiling, so original in their take. That's available of course on our YouTube channel and it's also available in podcast format. You can just search for the watches of podcast from Collective Horology on your podcast platform of choice. So lots of action to start 2026. And speaking of action, there is something of musical chairs going on in the watch industry. And you know, this was something that I think it came up in our 2024 watch industry predictions. Yep. When we predicted brand consolidation and sort of brand reshuffling. So in particular, some of the major players in the industry holding companies looking to shed some brands and, and sell them off. And I think at the time we said, like, this is probably about the moment in the industry where things like this start to happen because the industry had been on sort of this multi year decline at, at that point in time. But we also said, oh my gosh, does the, the Swiss watch industry move at a glacial pace? Of course, yes, it does. So here we are at the beginning of. And we really have the first kind of major move here, which is Richemont has shed Baume and Mercier and they have sold them to an Italian luxury group, the Diamanti Group. Traditionally, they've been more focused on jewelry. They own a number of jewelry brands, but they do also in the last 20 years they've added watch brands and they've added some watches to their jewelry brands as well. But they will be taking on Baume and Mercier. There's a lot to discuss about how that's happening and the logistics of it. But we're starting to see this, see this happen. Did it surprise you it took this long?

[A]

No, no. I mean, look, business obviously, I think especially in the corporate world is lagging, not leading. So it would take a fair amount of time for some of the things that we thought might happen to happen. Because that prediction was 16, 18 months ago. And if we go back to the reason that we made that prediction, it was tied to redundancy in the corporate watch world. A lot of it was, okay, let's look at Richemont, right? You got Bauman, Mercier at that entry price point. You have several other brands at that entry price point. Swatch Group's a good example of this. Right. With, with Tissot and Hamilton.

[B]

And you have a dog pile in the, the kind of mid range.

[A]

Yeah, all kind of, or in this sense the entry level. Yeah, all kind of competing for the same, the same piece of that part of the collecting puzzle. Admittedly, those are very different watch brands with very different personalities, no doubt about it. But they're competing in that sort of sub $5,000 range. Baumein Mercier is also kind of an interesting brand in the sense that you have to have a lot of respect in this case for Richemont, because they tried. Lord knows they tried. You know, they tried both from a product standpoint, like the Baume, Mercier, Riviera.

[B]

Some of the newer Rivieras are Pretty cool.

[A]

Yep. A couple years ago and almost half a decade ago, they tried spinning off or creating a spin off brand just called Bomb.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that one exactly.

[A]

Yeah, they tried, you know, so they, they really, they did it. But I, you know, and it's, it's easy to sort of sit back and say, oh well, they should have done this, they should have done that. In the end, I think it just sort of demonstrates that brand just never had the juice to do what it needed to do for it to have a seat at the corporate table. And if you look at what Richemont's doing, if I were sitting in some of the chairs that, that Richemont leadership are doing, I think this is the right idea. You know, they've clearly been putting their effort and their energy into the higher end. You know, Jaeger Lecoultre is definitely going through a bit renaissance. You know, Panerai lord knows needs it. Lange has, you know, you put aside all the quibbling around the edges like that brand has grown quite significantly in terms of average price point and in terms of its demand from a, from, from a new watch standpoint. And of course Vacheron has done an amazing job of turning that brand around into the powerhouse that it is right now. So you can see the focus.

[B]

Don't forget Cartier. Of course you forget Cartier.

[A]

How could I forget Cartier? Which of course represents a significant percentage of the total revenue of Richemont. So when you look at those brands and then you say Baume and Mercier, you can see why they might say, you know what, it might make sense for us to excise this from the portfolio, bring in some significant capital to help us grow the rest of the brands. And this won't make a meaningful impact on our bottom line.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, so one question for you on this. We talked about the sort of the, the dogpile and I think in broad terms what the industry considers the mid range, these are watches between 1 and $5,000. And Balon and Mercier competes in there. There aren't a lot of brands that really compete squarely in there. I mean IWC drifts into their, Jaeger can drift into there so much anymore. But, but really, I mean Baum was the sort of the entry level mid range brand for Richemont. So it's not like there's a dogpile within Richemont and Bauman. Mercier couldn't find its, its footing within Richemont. I think the challenge for them is that is the toughest segment in the Market.

[A]

Now, look, that's true. I mean, I think that they compete. I think in that segment also was Mont Blanc.

[B]

Oh, gosh. Yeah. We'll talk more about Mont Blanc in a little bit, for sure.

[A]

But, you know, the, the ice divers and the. Yes, they're in that. Are absolutely in that segment, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. And they seem to. Those seem to have some more traction. And then. Then Baumo Mercier.

[A]

But Bauman Mercier makes sense, right? I mean, take yourself out of the watch collector sphere.

[B]

Straightforward dive watch from a luxury brand you've heard of. There you go. Yeah. But, yeah, Bauman Mercier. One of the reasons I think it went. I read in the reporting it went to Daimani was the brand or Dame Damiani. Damiani, sorry, Damiani is that is a. It's a brand that has strength in the Italian market now also, I believe

[A]

the distributor in the market for the watch brand initially.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I don't think this was a foolish acquisition. This is clearly an acquisition by a brand that. Or, I'm sorry, a luxury group that has a very strong belief in what they're buying into and probably thinks that they can do a better job of it if they were in control.

[B]

Yeah. So one thought I had about that is like, when I heard, like, okay, it's going to a buyer in the Italian market. It's going to a buyer that has a stable of jewelry brands. Does Bauman Mercier sort of become like a. A baby Bulgari? That was my first. My first thought. Well, like, you know, I think a lot of people, when they think about Bulgari, certainly I do. If you. If I close my eyes and I think of a Bulgari watch, I think about the Octo Finissimo. And then if I think about Bauman Mercier and, and, and like the Riviera, for instance, I could see that with a more Italian design sensibility, a more sort of jewelry design sensibility, you could end up taking this brand into more of sort of a fashion and jewelry direction, and it could. It could round out that portfolio. I, I don't know how you take the Bauman to the point you and I were talking about. I don't know how you take the Bauman Mercier brand and just put it under different ownership and expect it will perform better. Well, you need to change the product like Bulgari did. I mean, they've made massive changes to their product line which drove the appeal of their watches. Parmigiani is another great example of a brand that rethought their their product strategy and their kind of design codes and has had great success with that. So I wonder if Bauman Mercier in, in different hands, gets a fresh start from a, a product.

[A]

I mean the devil's in the details here because you know, you can't just like excise a brand like that cleanly from a giant holding company like Richemont.

[B]

And it won't be excised cleanly. There's a transition period here.

[A]

Well, and part of that may very well be that a lot of the calibers leveraged by those brands are made by Val Fleurie.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And for those who don't know, Val Fleurier is the, is a movement manufacturer that is owned by Richemont, makes movements for everyone from. Gosh, everyone really. I mean from Panerai to IWC to Bauman Mercier, I believe, if I'm not mistaken, even on some of the entry level watches from, from Vacheron. So you can't just cut that out. And then there's all sorts of interesting questions too. Like what happens to the retail network?

[B]

Well, yeah, there's the retail network, there's the people, the, the sales folks. Corp. On the corporate side in the field around the world, all the employees, period. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

So I'm sure there is a Baume and Mercier boutique of some variety somewhere in the world. So it's, it's an interesting question and I think it'll be a fascinating, a fascinating look into what it means for a holding company to part ways with a brand that has been fully integrated.

[B]

Yeah. And as part of this there's like a 12 month, or apparently at least a 12 month period where Richemont will continue to provide transition services. So logistics, back office, all these sorts of things. You have to wonder if there are more long term agreements in place for access to movements or other parts. I mean, don't forget, not only does Richemont supply many of its own movements, they also have their own foundry. Yeah. So they supply, supply a lot of their, you know, cases and case materials and things like that. So there's a lot that goes into this. The other thing that sort of set this move up, sort of the first chess move for Richemont is they've. Richemont has had a lot of, speaking of musical chairs, a lot of management changes over the last couple of years, particularly within the watchmaking maisons and the current CEO of Richemont who assumed the, the mantle a couple short years ago, there's no.

[A]

I'm sorry, Jerome Blainbert was The former CEO. Excuse me. Yeah, he's now jlc.

[B]

He's back at jlc. But the current CEO of Richemont split up their. What they had basically a centralized organization for their watchmaking maison. So they reported into, I think it was like a specialist watchmaker group that then reported up to the CEO. And one of the first moves the. The new CEO, whose name escapes me, made was basically broke that group up and said, no, each maison is now reporting to the CEO directly and responsible for their own P. And it's not going to be rolled up into. Into this group. And these things can't just sort of be painted over. And so that, I think, left one Bauman Mercier in a place where, to your point, within the group, it's relatively exposed. Yeah. And then two, it sets it up because what you're starting to do there corporately and in the organization structure of the company is you're starting to undo a lot of the things that ties any given brand into the overall corporate structure. But that, but that's the way it's been said a long time.

[A]

I mean, like, prior to, like, 2020, concept of, like, Richemont as a holding company was way more on paper than it was in practice, you know, and this is true of many, like, holding companies like this, where it's like, yeah, sure, we own you, and yes, you roll up to us and the whole thing, but operationally, essentially, these are all independent companies operating separately, you know, And I always sort of had this question in my mind about, like, well, that seems like a missed opportunity. Right. Like, why? If I. If I'm, say if I'm a salesperson at Lange and a guy walks in the front door and he says, hi, my name is Gabe Riley. You know, I would love to be able to plug him into a CRM and then find out. Much to my joy and surprise, he's a huge Lange client.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know, like, there are massive advantages not just from data mining, but also from client service around a holding company structure. When you roll that back, it's not just a question of P and L, it's also a question of, like, client service. Because I'm sure listeners here have had the experience of being a major client of a Panerai or a major client of, like, Vacheron or whatever, and then you go into a Jaeger Lecoultre and you're like, hi, you know, I have invested significantly in Richemont. And they're like, your name is. I'm sorry, your name is Richard Mont.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You Know, like what, what now?

[B]

No idea. Exactly.

[A]

Like completely irrelevant. And it's one of those things where it's like if you set up separate P Ls and you do decentralized that way, it might make sense to make the, you know, make the brands into the fighting beta fish that might drive to higher revenue, but it's not in service of clients.

[B]

One thing I will say we've seen,

[A]

or let me rephrase that in fairness it, it. It's not as in service of clients as it could be.

[B]

Yeah. I think you're, you're making a trade off.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. One of the trade offs could be like, no, we want to have our brands or maisons as them be more independent so they can really have their own identity and do less of what Swatch does. Which is like forcing brands into particular price positionings and territories.

[A]

You sell that now.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And the beatings will continue until morale improves. But that's one of my favorites. That's a good chestnut. So there I, I do think that's a benefit. And like we said, you know, every company has to decide in which ways they're going to suck. And I think the trade off here is like, well, we want to give these brands their own identity and their own creativity. And I'll say from our own, We've worked with and talked to many Richemont watch brands in, in our, in our travels. Sure. And I think what we found is, and obviously we've done collaborations with a number of them, but you better believe, you know, we've met with others, we've proposed ideas to others, we've had, you know, encounters with other executives or people for any number of reasons from these different watchmaking maisons. And culturally they are extremely different. You know, IWC has a very different culture from Mont Blanc, has a different culture from Jaeger and very different culture from Vacheron. These are all brands in one way or another. We've spoken to, we never spoken to the good folks at Bauman Mercier, however. Go figure. And so what you have is these organizations are truly extremely different culturally. And I think you and I, we worked corporately at big companies that held multiple brands. And when I worked at, when I worked at Facebook, you know, I worked at Instagram and Instagram had like its own culture that was sort of separate from Facebook and like prided themselves on it, but like, not really. And you know, there are other brands within that company that had like their own culture, but not really. And I was, so I was sort of expecting that you know, in our dealings with different brands from Richemont, and I'll tell you, they may have some of the same backend systems and things like that, but culturally these, these brands are very, very different. And, you know, maybe that's for better or worse, but that's, that's a trade off you make here. Now, speaking of different companies and different cultures, let's talk a little bit about lvmh. And there is a similar sort of. And let's be clear, this is a rumor and it's a rumor that LVMH has denied, but there's a similar rumor surrounding LVMH and Zenith in particular, that LVMH is shopping the brand. And this has been reported in a number of places. I believe it was reported initially last year by awp, which is a swap Swiss news agency. It's been reported in the business of fashion and in a number of other trade publications. So this is, this is out there. Again, LVMH denies this, but the reporting is essentially that LVMH has taken steps to explore the sale of Zenith and it's being driven by Zenith's financial performance. Now, again, LVMH denies all this, but of course, I would conjecture, you know, if you were exploring this and selling, looking at selling a brand for all sorts of reasons, not the least of which is just how long and laborious a process like this can be and how much can unfold in the intermediary steps, you'd probably deny it as. Yeah, as well.

[A]

Although I think we, we do need to be careful that while Baumann, Mercier and Zenith are both fall under the broader, you know, conversation of, like, reshuffling or sales or what have you.

[B]

They're very different brands.

[A]

Yeah, they're extremely different brands. And, you know, and with very different, you know, potential hypothetical challenges. Right. Like Baum and Mercier, I would, I would presume, is having challenges around differentiation. Right.

[B]

Like what makes and competing in a segment of the market that's in a rough spot right now.

[A]

Sure. Zenith does not have that problem. No, Zenith is highly differentiated, very clearly articulated brand, very clear designs. But LVMH as a company is going through a lot of palace intrigue and changes, both in terms of individuals and leadership roles, moving into different roles, et cetera.

[B]

The drama around the succession of Bernard Arnault and what's going to happen with his family and who's taken. There's just palace intrigue galore.

[A]

Can't make a Tomlin without breaking some graves.

[B]

You certainly cannot I mean, this is the truly. I mean, it's the stuff of an HBO series. Yeah.

[A]

But Zenith is interesting to me in the sense that Zenith to me has always. And I mean, look, full transparency. We know a lot of people at Zenith. We love a lot of people at Zenith. And Zenith love the watches too. I'm also frankly, like, there is no collective without Zenith because they were the first people that supported us. So obviously I'm emotionally tied into this brand. I can't be quite as objective as I would be elsewhere. But I would argue that with Zenith, it's about how much someone wants to believe. I mean, it really kind of is the Ted lasso believe sign. You know, the watchmaking is there, the creativity is there, the heart and soul is there. If that can be more of a priority at another company, hell yes.

[B]

Oh, that's a good way of putting it.

[A]

You know, And I mean, look, that doesn't mean that it's not a priority of lvmh. I'm not doing this to take a potshot at lvmh. It's just, you know, it's a big company. Their focus is all is in different places. If selling the company gives them a cash infusion to put more, you know, love into Hublot, more love into Tag Heuer, more love into Bulgari, et cetera. I mean, okay, and then if that split off goes to, you know, if that brand goes to another party that, that sees what really makes Zenith something special, then a. Okay, I see a very big difference between why an LVMH might want to say goodbye to Zenith from Richemont. Saying goodbye to Baum and Mercier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, to me, to, to use a really bizarre metaphor, it's like Zenith is, is like I, I love you and we need to get a divorce. But like, I think you're an incredible person. This just wasn't the right match. You know what I mean? Maybe, maybe, you know, if we run with that metaphor to Baume and Mercier, it's like we never should have gotten married anyway. Like, what were we doing?

[B]

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I'm a bit skeptical of this. It could be true, it might not be true. Again, these are. Sure, these are rumors or against it. We should give that some credence. At the same time, we should give credence that LVMH is giving this a full throated denial.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But with the lv, with the LVMH and Zenith thing, it surprises me one, because we talked about like the role of Val Fleurier and integration within the Richemont Group. Well, Zenith is not just a brand within the portfolio of lvmh. It does supply calibers to other maisons within lvmh. Now of course they could still continue to do that if they were part of a separate company or movements could be acquired from somewhere else. But, but just this last week at LVMH Watch week, there are other LVMH brands that announced and revealed a number of novelties with Zenith Elite calibers.

[A]

Yeah, I mean there's all sorts of stuff like that. You know, there's, there's also shared intellectual property and other formats like quick release bracelets between Zenith and Hublot materials. 100%, you know, and this, and it's like this is a, this is a really sticky wicket because it's all tied up in like, you know, agreements with third party vendors who license various different, you know, products and ideas to lhmh. But they're, but they're made available to this brand. So it's, this goes back to this whole idea of like if you divorce yourself, if you excise a brand from the company, what is actually the brand? Like what are you buying? Right. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And also it points out to why this is such a difficult and painstaking thing. There's so many things to unwind. It's not just payroll and like this person moves to another office. It's all this stuff. Supplier contracts.

[A]

We have a, we have a Zenith

[B]

supplier contract even valid for, I'm making this up for ceramic bracelets if they're no longer part of the group.

[A]

We have a watch that's currently in service collaboration that we did with Zenith and you know, that goes to the LVMH service center.

[B]

Oh great. Yeah, good point.

[A]

It's like so many things you have to consider when you consider what it means to quote, sell a brand. It's not like, you know, it's not like something that's like exists in its own hermetically sealed, you know, pocket. And you're like, there you go, one Zenith. You know, so. And when you think about it too, it's, it's kind of like, you know, cost of ownership is a thing.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I mean that was like my parents grew up, they always were obsessed with Jaguars. And the question was like, well see it's not, it's not can you like afford a Jaguar? It's can you afford to like repair the Jaguar?

[B]

I'm learning that lesson myself painfully now with.

[A]

Yeah, how much?

[B]

Yeah, I recently picked up an E46A BMW 3 Series. It's a 330ci, so nothing fancy like an M3. But I. I've. I've spent more money fixing the car in the two months I've owned it than I did to buy the car.

[A]

So.

[B]

Right, so there's your. There's your cost of ownership. It's not, can I afford the car, it's can I afford to make.

[A]

Exactly. And I would argue that's the thing about Zenith or, or Bauman Mercier or like, whatever brand, right? In the end, it's. It's not just, can you buy the brand, it's what about the service center? What about the parts? What about all the contracts? They're outstanding.

[B]

What about, like, parts?

[A]

You know, like, all of this stuff is what goes into, like, the. The sack of a brand. And you have to ask yourself, like, not only do I believe that I Do I have the marketing and brand acumen to drive the future of this brand, but, like, can I take it on? Can I fix the watches?

[B]

Yeah. You know, can I take on all. Can I even take on the inspiration? The other thing that's going on with LVMH is, like, forget whether or not they keep Zenith or spin it off. Like, there already is a ton of movement happening within the watchmaking division of lvmh. So if you look at their acquisition, for instance, of Le Fabrique Duane, if you look at how they've rebooted the Gerald Genta and the Daniel Roth brands, if you look how. At how much more seriously Louis Vuitton as a brand is taking watchmaking, there is a lot. The rise, continued rise of Bulgari. There's already a lot that's happening under the hood with the watchmaking brands and the watchmaking aspect of lvmh. Like, they've come quite a way. I was listening to the enthusiastic. This podcast from Stephen Pulver and Justin Hass are good friends, and this is a point that they made, which is if you look back 10 years, 5 years LVMH as a watchmaking force, and just the number of watches that they're making, the brands they have, has expanded aggressively. Really? Ten years ago, it was Tag Heuer, Hublot and Zenith. And like, Bulgari was doing some watchmaking off on the side, but. But Bulgari's now been really pulled into the fray of LVMH watchmaking. And you, of course, have sure have.

[A]

Have these other brands pulled into the fray of watchmaking.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's pretty remarkable what's happened. And so on the one hand, you're seeing LVMH making a lot of substantial investments in watchmaking. So you're kind of like, if. And there's another thing I want to talk about with them, but they're making some substantial investments in watchmaking. They're adding and beefing up their watchmaking bonafides. So why would they spe this thing

[A]

off the bona fide?

[B]

I don't know. They. And then the other thing that that's going on is there have been speaking of rumors, this isn't really a rumor, but a number of years ago, Bernard Arnault, who owns the. Is the majority shareholder in lvmh, or at least has control of lvmh, I believe he's the CEO. As the head honcho, he.

[A]

Great acquired episode, by the way.

[B]

Great acquired episode. He has made investments in R, so he owns a minority stake of Richemont. Now. He has said publicly that he's not interested in taking over R and that, you know, he. Johan Juan Rupert is a friend of his and he trusts him and he wants him to run Richemont and all this kind of stuff. They both said this sort of thing, but that, you know, he believes in them and wants to make an investment. Why on earth would he be interested in Richemont? Well, Cartier is the crown jewel. Van Cleef and Arpel is a huge business. LVMH does very well in jewelry. We talked about this in past episodes. The jewelry making divisions of Richemont are really the ones that are driving the business. The growth of the business, the revenue of the business, the profitability of the business. And if you're Bernard Arnault, how, you know, it's like, what's that old fable? It's like, you know, why did the scorpion sting someone? Because he's a scorpion. It's kind of that. It's like, well, look at all the acquisitions and all the moves Bernard Arnault has made over the decades. How could he not want Cartier so specifically? And then if you think about, you know, Richemont and what they've done, spinning off Bauman Mercy and really focusing on their more premium watchmaking brands, it's like, like, are they setting themselves up for. For an acquisition here? So there's this bigger picture of whether you want to buy that conspiracy or not. LVMH has six has significantly beefed up watchmaking. Sure. So the fact that they'd be looking to shop Zenith, which is integrated into their other operations, which has its own lane and its own point of view and its role that it fills is surprising.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know, I. I think all of that may be true, but corporations still do corporation stuff and we

[B]

don't have access to the books. Part of the reporting here is that the reason why. And again, this is reporting, for instance, from the business of fashion that Zenith has been loss making for years. And so it's adding to the pressure from the executives to sort of do something. Hey, it's Gabe. Openwork is proudly ad free and requires no paid subscription. If you'd like to support the show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Please also check out and subscribe to collective horology on YouTube where you'll find hundreds of videos we've made on independent watchmaking. You can find our channel@collective horology.com YouTube and of course you can always support the podcast by picking up a watch from over a dozen independent brands along with our Latest merch@colusive horology.com thanks for listening and for your support. Now back to the show. Show, yeah, who knows?

[A]

We'll see. But regardless, two interesting hypothetical, well, one confirmed one hypothetical movers in. In the watch world.

[B]

And then you have the meta chess game of Bernard Arnaud put taking, taking a stake in the, in the Reachmont Group and wherever there's smoke, there's fire with that, that kind of stuff.

[A]

I always found that I don't think

[B]

he does, he does anything just because he believes in another executive and wants to support their work. Come on.

[A]

Yeah, sure, but, but I mean his interest in Hermes is also very well

[B]

known and is also I believe, minority stake there as well. He's made a small.

[A]

Yeah, although there's some really interesting reporting that's been out there for years too about that. Like that is very, that is a very antagonistic relationship. Hermes is not interested in selling and Hermes is. Does not want anybody aggressively.

[B]

What's the ownership structure there? Because I think it's essentially private for all intents and purposes. But some number of shares are floated publicly. We don't really. But it is. Don't listen to us about. But it.

[A]

But it is. But it is still largely under family control control.

[B]

All right, well, forget rumors. Let's get back to reality and talk about watches and wonders, which is there's a brand reshuffling happening within watches.

[A]

A brand reshuffling or a grand reshuffling?

[B]

Grand brand reshuffling. Gosh, maybe we shouldn't record so late in the afternoon.

[A]

But not.

[B]

Let's talk a little bit about the seating chart at Watches and Wonders, because there's a few interesting things going on there. We talked about AP joining, and we talked about why we think AP is joining. But one thing I speaking. The seating chart I think is really interesting is like, they're kind of being put in this backwater corner. Well, I mean, look, they're sort of being sent to the kids table.

[A]

You know what's interesting about that show?

[B]

Many things.

[A]

But what's fascinating to me is, like, the actual PAL Expo is way, way, way bigger than Watches and Wonders.

[B]

It's huge.

[A]

Yet they, they, they. They seem to want to, like, jam everything into, like, the existing footprint. Like, they won't extend. Like, you could just build another hall, you know.

[B]

Yeah. Well, there was even a more simple solution. I'm trying to pull up a map, but for, if memory serves me right, Bell and Ross's out of Watches and Wonders this year. And Bell and Ross's booth, which was a significant booth in, in size and scale, was right across from Rolex Tudor, Chopard and Patek Philippe.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So why would an AP just take over that booth? And, and maybe it's not as big as AP would have liked, but they could have, to your point, built further, conceivably further into. Well, into the show itself.

[A]

Well, sure, but part of that is because Chanel took over that space. So.

[B]

So, okay, so they're. They were in the Chanel zone.

[A]

Chanel brand, they're.

[B]

I think Chanel has a stake in them.

[A]

Yeah, I think they're the. The primary.

[B]

Primary. Yeah.

[A]

So Chanel just took that entire space.

[B]

Got it. Okay, so. So it wasn't necessarily. Okay, so that we can squash that conspiracy theory, but specifically. So a couple of years ago, when Bremont joined the show along with a number of smaller brands, they opened this sort of, like, mezzanine space. So it's kind of upstairs from the rest of where they could showcase.

[A]

Showcase our favorite brand. Bremont.

[B]

Yes, Bremont. And this was Primari for Bremont. So this sort of second level of Watches and Wonders, you've got Bremont, you have a smaller hall of small and independent brands. And then primarily, what this. This area where AP is specifically had. Had been for years was like this executive dining room. So it was basically this, like, faux restaurant where brand executives could make a reservation and, like, take VIPs, retailers press to like, have a sit down, like, served fancy lunch at a table. And you can imagine that's not Necessarily the most high priority thing. So it was sort of put upstairs and off in the corner. Well, now AP is literally where that restaurant used to be. And then that restaurant has been pushed even further into the bowels of the show.

[A]

I can't, I can't help but find it amusing that, like, the spot that you couldn't get a table at is, of course, the place that AP leaves.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Oh, but we have the perfect place for you, ap.

[B]

It's poetic. So it's like, you know, they're joining, but, but, you know, knowing what we know about AP and how important, you know, their image is and how they present themselves and show up, which I get. Like, you're, you're a global luxury brand. You're not just a watch brand, but you're a brand. It's interesting to me. They've been sort of seated at the, at the kids table, so we'll see how it goes. Now, sometimes these brands don't want to be anywhere near each other. They may have said, like, I don't want to be in, in, you know, earshot of Patek Philippe or anyone else, but I find that kind of hard to believe.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, I, I am the first to take a, to take an easy shot at ap. I honestly think this is more of just like this is where the space was. Not any sort of.

[B]

They could have refused the space too. They didn't like it.

[A]

Yeah, well, this. Well, I don't think they can afford to refuse the space because I think they're there because they need retailers, as we, as I've said, and we'll come back to that. But. And you've said opposite, you think they're there for the media. So we'll find out.

[B]

The other thing they did with this space, so they rerouted the shuttles. So when they opened the second floor space, you used to enter watches and wonders on that sort of main floor level. And you'd feed right into this area that was sort of in the middle of the show. And you could go one way for Paddock, Rolex, Tudor and the Chanel brands and ethanol. You go the other way, basically, for the Richemont brands. And so you entered basically in the middle of show, go one way or the other, essentially the other year, when they opened that, like, backwater upstairs space, they rerouted the shuttle buses that would take you from your hotel, the event, to drop you off at this weird back entrance to force you, you to walk through that area.

[A]

Because that, that's where they put all the septons who have the bells so they can go shame, shame, shame, as you walk right by Bremont. I mean, it's really, it's all part of, of that tradition.

[B]

So we'll see. They'll probably force us again to walk by Bremont and AP this year. But look, I think when they did, when they made that change, that AP

[A]

will allocate the bells to people.

[B]

Fair enough. We'll see if they do that. I think when they first opened that space, it made sense, but because people conceivably had no idea that that space was there and who was up there. So you sort of. It's like ikea, you know, you have to walk all the way through the, through the different things.

[A]

You walk through the plants before you leave.

[B]

Yeah. No, you can't just, you can't just buy the bookcase.

[A]

Look, in all seriousness, I. Putting aside my silliness, I don't think it matters where AP is. You know, AP is ap. If somebody want, if they could, they could be dangling from a crane above that you had to climb a rope ladder to get into do. And, and like both clients and, and ads would do that. I'm sure. What I am most interested here is not where they're placed, but what their end goal is. And. And only time will tell when we get to that one.

[B]

Yeah, I'm just looking at, at the, at the map here because we got sent the map through a, through a back channel. But suffice it to say, if you're any other brand that is in that upstairs area, you are stoked that AP is up there. Yeah. Because it creates a center of, of gravity up there.

[A]

We know. I mean, in fairness, like, it's a good location anyway, because everybody's got to walk away by you. Yeah, but. But separate from that, you know, another thing that I found particularly interesting too, was Mont Blanc has left the show and.

[B]

Well, yeah, this we're covering, we covered Moser moving up within the show. They're moving into Mont Blanc's old space.

[A]

And, and who are they surrounded by? Parmigiani, Langanzoni, Vacheron, Constantin, Cartier, IWC and Ulissy Narden.

[B]

Do you have the map?

[A]

I do.

[B]

You got. Oh, you got the map?

[A]

I got the map.

[B]

You got it?

[A]

It's in Slack, man. Yeah, we bring it up.

[B]

We were. I don't think the map has been published yet, but we, we got it through a back chain channel. You know who you are. Thank you.

[A]

The question for me about Moser here is an interesting one because Moser has been understandably very proud of their move from the sort of independent section. Yeah,

[B]

I apologize in advance. Retribute. I apologize to any French speakers.

[A]

Get you, get thee to Duolingo. Anyway, they move from there onto the quote unquote main floor. And I think that actually says a lot about not only just their growth as a brand and all of that, but also how they view themselves. You know, they view, and this is not unique to Watches and Wonders because we see this in who they've partnered with from a retail standpoint and the way that they've built out. Right. You go to New York City, now you want to see a moser 5, 6 years ago, you went to go see Leon at Chilean. Now you go to the Time machine, you go to the Bukhara time machine

[B]

in Vegas, you go to Watches, the Switzerland and the Wynn Hotel. Moser has an entire wall next to Vacheron. And by the way, who are they across from now at Watches and Wonders? Vacheron. How you know, they're pretty stoked about that. Yeah.

[A]

So I think what this is doing is it's giving you some insight and it's not like this is super hidden or anything, but it's giving pretty clear and obvious insight into the Mehlan strategy around this brand, which is, yes, maybe we did start as an independent, but we believe that we have the product, the strategy and the support to become a mainstream competitor to these multi hundred year established brands. I'm really fascinated by this because this is the first of our generation of independents that has made the decision to do that. And, and you know, I mean, I suppose maybe you could say that about Parmigiani, maybe. But like it's, it's different because Parmigiani, it was sort of there versus Parmigiani

[B]

didn't grow up in the, in the kind of contemporary independent watchmaking space the way Moser did it, it came up. Well, there are parallels between MBNFS and Chapex and all those.

[A]

Sure. But there are parallels between Parmigiani and the various companies they own. And I think some of the acquisitions that we've seen, you know, in terms of the actual background end that is owned by or partially owned by Agenor

[B]

has a major investment from Moser.

[A]

I forget the name of the company that makes all the hairsprings that'll come back to me. But they're also very heavily owned by. If not.

[B]

No, Moser Outright owns it. Yeah, they make their hairsprings there.

[A]

You Go.

[B]

And many hairsprings for others.

[A]

For many others. So my point is this is a really interesting and important thing to watch because this is a brand that has always been, if I'm being super blunt, like really ballsy.

[B]

Yes. And extremely creative. Unorthodox. Yeah. And maverick brand, truly. Yeah.

[A]

And they've made this choice. So I'm very interested, curious. And, and they've posit.

[B]

Well, they position themselves among the other mavericks. You know, they were in the carry and they were next to Arminstrom and Moser and Chapek or obviously they're next to Moser, Chapek and others. You know, they were in this space that was the, this fresh space of creativity that had life and was unorthodox and where risk taking was on, not just rewarded but on full display. You know, they were in the mix, you know, and they fit in, in, in that, in that space because they were in a hall of mavericks. Now they're in a hall of very staid, traditional brands. Does that mean that they're going to wear, you know, are they going to show up wearing a suit or are they going to be the crazy guy at the party? This is a really interesting question and I'll be very interested to follow Moser and see how they evolve as a brand or don't in this next stage of growth that they're going for. But what is interesting to me about this is at every show we've ever been to, if you go into, whether it's Geneva watch days or Watches and Wonders or wherever else you might see them, you always go into a space that is co branded between Moser and Hautlant, which is their sister brand. And you know, if you don't know Hautlan's, they make really cool, unusual watches. I mean, let's talk about a brand that's very indie. Moser is leaving Outlaw behind. So the booth at Watches and Wonders will be Moser only Hautlan will still be in the caray. So they're taking over fully the sort of the Moser, the Moser Oatlant co branded booth. It'll be just Oatlan there in the carry. So this is also interesting for me, this is the first time Moser separating these two brands brands in how they show up. And it makes me think they've recognized here like, okay, Outlaw, this is a indie brand through and through avant garde designs and watchmaking. This brand belongs in the carry. That's where it is. It's at home there. Moser no longer fits and See?

[A]

Okay, if I just offer one potential counterpoint. I'm going to read you from their press release.

[B]

Oh, do they talk about this today?

[A]

A new page is being written in the history books after nine years in the Carre d', Horologer, H. Moser, and she will move to the main halls of watches and wonders in 2026. This is a natural evolution demonstrating the financial strength, continued growth and renown of the brand from a little gem in the Carre d' Horologer to a brand that is a key player on the international stage. H. Moser and Chi's unique take on haute horology. Okay, if I can just offer the counterpoint. There is a little bit of like. Like the dog kicking up its back legs here. Everybody around them as they head up there.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. They slammed the door on the way out.

[A]

So, like, this idea of like, oh, it's a cute little jam in the car. Oh, you sweet little guys over there.

[B]

Oh, no. It's extremely patronizing towards the other, I

[A]

will say, but they're.

[B]

But oat Lance. They're leaving Oatlans behind.

[A]

But that's my point. So I just. And, and I mean, look, I. I struggle a little bit here because, because I like Edouard and I like Moser a lot and I believe in them, but I don't like the idea of like, you know, tossing your hair back and wagging your finger at the entire world of the independents, which not only do we believe strongly in being the future of watchmaking and also where ingenuity and creativity lives, but it's also what gave birth to Moser.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I think the thing that I struggle with here is like, if they're going to do that to their competitive set, what are they going to do to all the people who believed in them as independent collectors? Because I'll tell you one thing.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

If they start acting like some of the major brands to the people who brought them to the dance, that ain't going to go well.

[B]

Well, their whole tagline is very rare. And part of the appeal of Moser is that it is undiscovered. It is for the cognizanti. It is inside baseball. There is a way wink to what they do, and they're very much walking away from it. What was the, what was the first reason there they cited for moving away from the carry? They, they gave like three reasons in this opening sentence. I think the first one was financial strength. Correct. How dull. So, look, we. We talk all the time about how watches and Wonders in the the main halls of the show. It's the invasion of the suits.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's the white guy in the navy suit with the slick back hair and the leather briefcase. Well, you know, It's a natural 10,000

[A]

demonstra strength, continued growth and renown of the brand. You know what's missing from that?

[B]

Creativity, exciting products. So like the watches themselves.

[A]

Imagine if you rewrote that sentence and you were like natural evolution based on the creativity and risk taking of the

[B]

brand that's been rewarded.

[A]

Exactly. Instead what they're saying is like, well, we're rich now.

[B]

Yeah. We got the money, so we're gonna,

[A]

we're gonna use the executive washroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I look, I, I, I, They've

[B]

joined, they've joined the, they've joined the invasion of the suits.

[A]

Well, here's the. Now I just found the cynical counterpoint. Now I'll argue with myself. The one thing, what was it? The cynic and the pragmatist. The thing I will say about Moser, and this is true since the moment we met them or they came to our awareness, is write them off at your own peril.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, these people are extremely shrewd and savvy, incredibly.

[A]

And they are not afraid to pick and pick, poke. So the question I have is, are we going to see Moser who decided that they now want to like what they really wanted was a seat at the big kids table and all of that was just pretense and jokes to get them there or are they going

[B]

to show up and continue to be the maverick? I hope they do.

[A]

I do too. Because every, like they could show up and they could thumb their nose at everyone around them, continue to be who they are and still be financially successful and grow and maintain their vibe. Vibe.

[B]

Yeah. And it's not a bad thing if you can walk into any watches of Switzerland in the world or Bucher or whatever and you can always find a Moser and it's always fresh, different and distinct from everything else in that store. So not a bad thing.

[A]

Sure. Could there be a cynical reason? Totally. Could there be a brilliant reason? Absolutely. So let's find out.

[B]

All right, so a few, as Moser moves into, in a few brands move, move out. Specifically Mont Blanc moves out of that space and Mont Blanc leaves Watches and Wonders altogether. I find the departure of Montblanc from Watches and Wonders especially interesting given the fact that Bauman Mercier is still in there. Now, of course, there's a, as the cynic and the pragmatist. I might say, well, you know, Richemont was shopping Bauman Mercier. They want to continue to present the brand in as desirable a way as possible and favorable as as possible to drive up the perceived value of the brand for anyone who buys it. They're not showing weakness, they're project projecting strength. They're still at Watches and Wonders, they're still invested. This helps sort of build up the value of the brand in, in the eye of, of the buyer potentially. You know, if they just pulled them out, that makes it harder to sell. And also, you know, they've said we will continue to support the brand ongoing for about 12 months to transition. This is probably part of that. So. But it is interesting to me when it's like they made a decision to sell and jettison one brand and they're keeping them at Watches and Wonders. Yet Montblanc is still within Richemont and is out from Watches Wonders. Now Montblanc is not a, like a pure watchmaking brand the way Baume Mercier is. You know, Baume Mercier isn't at Watches and Wonders, then what show are they at? Whereas Mont Blanc, you know, this is a part of their business, but not the only part of their business. But it's significant to me that they're not there. What, if anything, does it say to you?

[A]

I don't know. I mean, I find that way less interesting than everything else we've discussed. It's in the sense that Montblanc is a multi billion dollar company that is heavily diversified and just relative to basically every other brand that's in that space. I mean, maybe they share some similarities by scale and scope with Tag Heuer. But, but you're right, like this is a component of their business, it's not their primary business. You know, pens and leather goods are what that business is based on and those are much higher margin, much easier to under to metabolize and much more widely distributed than their watches.

[B]

Sure, but you have other brands there from Richemont for whom watches aren't their core business. You've got Van Cleef and Arpel still has a presence there.

[A]

Yeah, but Van Cleef and Arpel is an act, is actual, I mean Minerva notwithstanding is actual watchmaking. And you know, you know, and I'm not trying to say a potshot there too, but like, I mean, look, I mean, you know, the ice divers are, they're fine, they're Solita driven, you know, Etta driven, whatever. You know, generic on point divers, they serve a purpose. You buy them in an Airport. They're well made and you have a nice day. But like it's not, you know, I just don't. To me, like, if I were, if I were Richemont, I would focus on the places that I need to focus on and I would just say, you know what, like, we can save ourselves a million dollars. Probably more.

[B]

Oh, more, you know, way more than a million dollars.

[A]

Not building this out. And Montblanc will still be an incredibly successful, well renowned, highly regarded, you know, incredible luxury brand.

[B]

Yeah, Montblanc doesn't need watches and wonders the way Baume Mercier does.

[A]

And I don't know that the incremental business that's picked up by Mont. I mean, again, this is complete conjecture.

[B]

Who knows?

[A]

But I would imagine that the incremental business that's picked up by Mont Blanc at Watches and Wonders is, is much smaller than the incremental business that we see from other rich brands. And Watches and Wonders ain't cheap so far from it. So I would say, you know, I'm less interested.

[B]

You're not reading between the lines here too much.

[A]

I think I look at that when I'm. Well, let me put you this way. Richemont is not going to sell Montblanc. No way. I mean, that is, watches aside, that, that that brand is a absolute luxury and globally recognized powerhouse. There is zero reason to say goodbye to that brand.

[B]

Yeah, what I mean, obviously pens is a huge category. Fine leather goods, I would assume.

[A]

Oh my God, they're involved in everything. They make electronics.

[B]

Oh yeah, you' right, they make those

[A]

like they make headphones, they make smartwatches. They make, you know, every conceivable form of. They are more of a competitor to, they're ubiquitous. Yeah, but they're more of a competitor to like, you know, like, like the entry level Louis Vuitton than they are.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

You know, in many ways than they are to, to the watch bands that are there. So to me I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, they could be there, they couldn't be there. But like, that's less interesting to me than like Baume and Mercier, for which that is what they are known and they are gone.

[B]

All right, well, there are a few other folks actually.

[A]

They're not gone from the show. Yeah, but you know what I mean, they're not, but they gone.

[B]

They're moving, they're moving from the portfolio. Yeah, I mean there are a few other brands that aren't coming back. Bell and Ross is the other sort of big one. That's really interesting.

[A]

Brands Come and go. Armin Strom, a brand that we carry wasn't there for two years. Now they're coming back.

[B]

Speak. Marin is leaving the show. They were there for four or five years and now they're talents come there, they come out. Yeah. They're based in Geneva and I can see for them talking about, you know, how much it costs to be there there. They're like, our office is literally in Geneva, you know, like, totally. Why. Why are. Why are we doing this? Whereas a lot of the Indian.

[A]

A lot of ancillary shows. Right. I mean, like, you know, we have a lot of brands that we carry and that we work with that are next door at the time to Watches and even some other brands that are now occupying the Hilton, which is also adjacent to the. To the pub.

[B]

Oh, the Hilton.

[A]

I think part of this is also, if I'm being honest with you, just like other shows nibbling around the edges of Watches and Wonders and realizing, like, you don't have to pay whatever they charge per square foot to be in there. If your clientele Time to watch is

[B]

still right next to it this year.

[A]

It still will be. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Last year they were saying this is the last year, the only year it can be here because this building that Time to Watches is in, which is right next to the Plexpost being turned into a museum, but sounds like they got a reprieve from that and they live to fight another. That space is cool, though. Brutally hot when you got to the upper floor. Certainly the body heat. Just.

[A]

But. But I mean, just speaking from. From a practical standpoint, like just as somebody who.

[B]

Thank God. Yeah.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Yeah. And that's good for Watches and Wonders too. It keeps you. Keeps you in. In the area. So the movers and shakers, whether it's at Watches and Wonders or brands coming off the. Coming off the company masthead, there you have it. A lot happening. I suspect this will not be the last time we talk about the brand reshuffling happening this year. There, there. Whether it's zenith, maybe, maybe not. But I suspect there will be other brands that. That move around this year. It's. It's in the water. There have certainly been been a ton of challenges the industry has faced. These restructurings take a long time, and a lot of executive reshufflings have happened which usually precedes this. So this will be a space we continue to watch.

[A]

Let's call it.

[B]

All right, well, thank you so much for listening. Openwork is, of course, a podcast from Collective Horology. You can find us online@collective horology.com and please send us your thoughts, your feelings, feedback, your suggestions. Send us your questions. We love questions. And to do that, you can email podcastollectivephorology.com.