Ep. 136 Ravel's L'Enfant et les sortilèges

Summary

Opera For Everyone – Ep. 136: Ravel's L'Enfant et les Sortilèges

Date: November 16, 2025
Host: Pat Wright
Guest Co-Host: Erica Minor
Episode Focus: Maurice Ravel’s opera L’Enfant et les Sortilèges in celebration of the 150th anniversary of Ravel’s birth.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Opera For Everyone celebrates the 150th anniversary of French composer Maurice Ravel by diving into his magical one-act opera, L’Enfant et les Sortilèges (The Child and the Spells). Joined by return guest, author, and former Metropolitan Opera violinist Erica Minor, host Pat Wright explores Ravel’s artistry, the opera’s background and plot, and the unique collaborative influence of Colette’s libretto. The episode’s tone is warm, rich with anecdotes, and dotted with humor and insight for both opera newcomers and aficionados.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Maurice Ravel: Life and Reputation

• Ravel’s Artistic Distinction:

  • Known for much more than just Boléro, Ravel was a master orchestrator, a lover of Spanish rhythms, and an independent spirit unconcerned with conservatory tradition ([04:32]–[07:12]).
  • “[Boléro]...an experiment in a very special and limited direction. A piece lasting 17 minutes and consisting wholly of orchestral tissue without music... Unfortunately there's no music in it.” – Ravel, quoted by Pat Wright ([04:45]).
  • Ravel frequently drew from diverse musical sources—Spanish folk music from his Basque heritage, jazz, and avant-garde trends.

• Parisian & Spanish Roots:

  • Born in Ciboure, near the Spanish border, Ravel’s childhood was steeped in Spanish folk influence ([24:18]).
  • His mother’s songs and his Basque ancestry are prominent in much of Ravel’s music.

• Defiance of Tradition:

  • Rejected by the conservative Paris Conservatoire and overlooked for the Prix de Rome, Ravel stood by his artistic ideals ([07:12]).
  • Supported by Gabriel Fauré, who steered him toward composition over piano ([09:07]).

• Influence and Experimentation:

  • Member of collaborative groups in early 20th century Paris, associating with Debussy and Stravinsky; involved in musical “revolutions” ([10:29], [11:07]).

• Love for Children:

  • “Ravel absolutely loved children...he often said he preferred their company to adults. So it’s not surprising he wanted to write this opera about a child’s transformation.” – Erica Minor ([28:18]).

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2. Ravel’s Operatic Output: Context

• Two Short Operas:

  • Ravel composed only two operas: L’Heure Espagnole ("The Spanish Hour") and L’Enfant et les Sortilèges (“The Child and the Spells”), both one-acts, both under an hour ([03:24]).
  • L’Heure Espagnole is full of farcical, spicy French innuendo and satirical musical characterizations—light, comic, and “so very, very French” ([15:15], [19:36]).

• Transition to L’Enfant et les Sortilèges:

  • Original libretto by famed French author Colette, initially conceived as a ballet.
  • Ravel suggested it become an opera; Colette agreed ([13:18]).

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3. About Colette: Collaborator and Librettist

• Colette’s Literary Role:
  • Author of Gigi among many other works, Colette was tapped for her “deep understanding of the child’s perspective,” providing “charm, wit, and emotional depth to the opera’s libretto” ([12:41], [29:48]).

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4. Synopsis and Interpretative Insights – L’Enfant et les Sortilèges

Opening and Character Themes

• Orchestral motifs represent the mother and child even before they appear on stage ([27:13], [28:10]).
  • “You hear the oboe and then... double bass... and clarinets. They’re playing a combination of the child’s motif and the mother’s motif right at the beginning.” – Erica Minor ([27:31]).

Plot Summary with Key Moments

• The Child’s Rebellion ([32:25]):

  • The unnamed child refuses to do homework, acting out with escalating tantrums and destruction of objects, books, and even harming his pet squirrel’s cage.
  • “He only wants to do what he’s not supposed to do.” – Erica Minor ([32:25]).

• Mother’s Intervention ([35:33]):

  • The mother enters, disappointed; gives the child dry toast and unsweetened tea (“not what he would like at all” – Erica Minor ([36:32])).

• Enchanted Transformation ([47:27]):

  • As the child collapses in exhaustion, his surroundings come alive, animated by his guilt and misbehavior. The chairs, clock, teapot, and teacup each upbraid him for his destructiveness.
    • “It’s his guilty conscience that evokes all of these things starting to get their revenge.” – Erica Minor ([48:03]).

• Magic, Language Play & Musical Humor ([53:00]):

  • The teapot sings in English for comic effect; the China cup’s text playfully references Chinese words and mahjong ([53:00], [53:21]).

• Building Remorse ([53:44]):

  • For the first time, the child shows regret: “Just a little, though he’s still in his snit.” – Erica Minor ([53:44]).

• Other Animated Objects ([54:24]–[56:40]):

  • The clock groaning in pain from the missing pendulum; shepherds and shepherdesses torn from wallpaper lament their separation ([76:44]).
  • The princess from his destroyed storybook mourns not finishing her tale: “As of yesterday, when you read me, I was your first love... Alas, my weak little friend, what can you do for me?” – Princess (quoted by Pat Wright, [81:57]); a poignant moment on childhood powerlessness.

• Schoolbook Mayhem ([87:16]):

  • The child is tormented by his torn arithmetic book, which spews nonsense and confusion ([88:53]).

• Journey to the Garden ([94:27]):

  • The walls part, the ceiling lifts, and the child finds himself in the garden; nature animates and confronts him with the consequences of his actions.

• Confrontation with Nature ([97:41]):

  • Dragons, bats, frogs, and notably the squirrel all remember his cruelty—accusatory and ultimately heart-wrenching.
  • The bat’s lament that its nestlings are now motherless hits the child deeply: “Sans mère...without a mother.” ([98:55]).

Redemption and Climax

• Animals Turn on the Boy ([106:24]):

  • Realizing the pain he’s caused, the wildlife attack; the child and an injured squirrel are thrown from the melee.

• Act of Kindness ([107:24]):

  • The child sees the wounded squirrel and tends its injury with his ribbon—a turning point in his moral development.
    • “What does the child do that shows that he’s beginning to grow up?” – Erica Minor ([107:19]).

• Communal Response & the Need for Mother ([109:00]):

  • The animals recognize his goodness and, noting his earlier cry for “Maman,” resolve to bring him back to his “nest.”
    • “He called for his mother, the one he’d disobeyed and rejected. He’s beginning to realize…but I need her, and I miss her.” – Erica Minor ([104:54]).

• Resolution ([111:14]):

  • The opera ends as it began, with the child crying out for his mother, reaffirming the importance of unconditional love.
    • “Our last word of the opera: it’s Maman.” – Erica Minor ([111:14]).
    • “There’s so much to love about this child and about all children. I think that’s part of what Ravel was trying to say.” – Erica Minor ([112:54]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ravel’s Attitude Toward Awards:
  “Ravel wasn’t interested in that. He was going to do what he felt was his art. And if it didn’t win, it didn’t win. That was that.” – Erica Minor ([08:46])

• Talking About Colette’s Understanding of Childhood:
  “There’s a deep understanding of the child’s perspective...very much comes out when you hear the music and experience the opera.” – Pat Wright ([29:48])

• On the Child’s Powerlessness:
  “Alas, my weak little friend, what can you do for me?” – Princess (quoted by Pat Wright, [81:57])

• Characterizing Ravel’s Love for Children:
  “He often said he preferred [children’s] company to the company of adults.” – Erica Minor ([28:18])

• On Musical Opportunities for Staging and Animation:
  “Walt Disney actually wanted to do an animated film of this opera…” – Erica Minor ([41:52])

• On Child Development and Redemption:
  “You misbehave, but every child has something that will redeem them. And that’s what happens with this child.” – Erica Minor ([112:54])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro and Biographical Background on Ravel – [00:18] to [12:41]
• Ravel's Two Operas: Context and Synopses – [13:18] to [23:59]
• Spanish Influence & Ravel’s Artistic Identity – [24:18] to [26:57]
• Discussion of Colette and Opera’s Origins – [12:41], [13:18], [29:48]
• Detailed, Scene-by-Scene Plot Summary & Commentary on L’Enfant et les Sortilèges – [27:13] to [113:07]
• Thematic Wrap-Up (Motherhood, Redemption, Childhood) – [104:54], [111:14]-[113:29]
• Reflections on Ravel’s Orchestration and Legacy – [62:43] to [65:50]
• Connections to Stravinsky and Gershwin, Ravel’s later years – [66:08] to [75:06]

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Additional Features

• Historical Performance Insights:
  • Erica Minor shares rare firsthand reminiscences of playing the opera under Ravel’s protégé, Manuel Rosenthal ([39:20], [41:52]).
• Staging Interpretations:
  • Variety in production approaches: from costuming, concert performance, and projected translation to Disney’s rejected animated adaptation.
• Suggestions for Opera-Goers:
  • Operas are typically staged in the original language for maintaining their unique character ([44:27]).
  • Preparation improves enjoyment: reading the libretto and listening to Opera For Everyone are both recommended ([45:33]).

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Conclusion

This episode offers a heartfelt, enlightening guided tour of Ravel’s L’Enfant et les Sortilèges, combining musical interpretation, literary insight, and engaging personal anecdotes. Pat and Erica’s warmth and expertise render Ravel not just accessible, but deeply human, with his fondness for children and imaginative musical voice shining through. The opera’s journey from misbehavior and magical retribution to self-awareness and redemption is framed as universal and lovingly crafted—a story for all ages and all listeners.

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Visit ericaminer.com for more on Erika’s mysteries and music writing.
Episode and other Opera For Everyone content available via podcast and 89.1 KHOL.

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Opera For Everyone: Making opera understandable, accessible, and enjoyable—for all.

Transcript

[Erica Minor]

Foreign.

[Pat Wright]

Welcome to another edition of Opera for Everyone. I'm your host, Pat Wright, and I am joined today one more time by the fabulous Erica Minor. Erica, welcome.

[Erica Minor]

Thank you, Pat. It's always a pleasure. I'm so looking forward to this.

[Pat Wright]

I am, too. You've suggested a fabulous topic for us Today, celebrating the 150th anniversary of the birth of Maurice Ravel. He was born in 1875. Thank you so much for suggesting this.

[Erica Minor]

Well, I have had a deep love for Ravel for pretty much as long as I can remember. And as I mentioned to you, I'm also married to a French guy, so. So we have quite a French household here and always looking for a reason to celebrate a French composer, but especially Ravel. And as we will discuss today, there's so much about Ravel which is super special.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, we will. But first, I want to just remind listeners that Erika has been on three prior episodes of Opera for Everyone. With me in each one of those. We were celebrating talking about one of the books that Erika has written. She has this fabulous series of books, the Julia Kogan Opera mystery series, and they're set in opera houses in different parts of the country, one for each book. New York, Santa Fe Opera and San Francisco. And, and most recent of those came out just at the end of 2024, but you can now get all three of them if you want some fun mystery. But honestly, from my perspective, I love all the behind the scenes details of what goes on in an opera company, in an opera house.

[Erica Minor]

It's so much fun. It was so much fun for me when I was there, thinking people in the audience see all the glamour, you know, especially at the Met when I was performing there, but they don't know what goes on behind the scenes behind that golden curtain. And I thought, how much fun would it be to give an insider's view and then escalate all of the backstage drama and rivalries and jealousies and leading to murder?

[Pat Wright]

Yeah, yeah, there's plenty to keep you interested in there. And we should also mention, Erika, you were an opera orchestra violinist for many years.

[Erica Minor]

I was 21 years at the Metropolitan Opera and believe me, I saw it all, I imagine. So I just had to write about it.

[Pat Wright]

Right. And not only that, you can always go to Erika's website, erikaminer.com because you write lots of reviews about musical pieces as well as offer your services and do a lot of speaking engagements.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, I do. I like to do lectures, especially about opera. I'm doing a lot of those for colleges Universities, Wagner societies and as far as reviews and interviews, my most recent one was an interview with Shen Zhang, who is the new music director of Seattle Symphony, the very first woman music director in their 65 year history and also an Asian woman. So it's a very big deal. You can find that interview on my website as well.

[Pat Wright]

Erikaminer.com well, we're in good hands today to celebrate Ravel. The show that we're going to particularly focus on is one of his two operas. Both of his operas are short operas, one act operas, under an hour, around an hour. We're going to focus on l' Enfant et les, the Child and the spells. Although that sort allege, I understand can be understood in a number of ways.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, it's really hard to translate. It could enchantment, it could be magic creatures, anything like that, as you will soon see and hear.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yes. Well, let's talk about Ravel himself before we launch into that particular opera that we're going to spend some time with. Because I have to say, whenever I mention to someone that I'm going to be recording a show on Ravel, they're like, oh, he's the guy who wrote the Bolero. Because it became so famous, at least in this country, became so famous to during those Sarajevo Olympics with that torvillon din ice skating pairs that just captivated so many people. And Bolero itself took on a life of its own. I feel like in this country it became a very familiar tune.

[Erica Minor]

It definitely did and it still is so. And the interesting thing is that his view of it was very kind of. Have you read about that? It's like a little.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yeah.

[Erica Minor]

He called it an experiment in a very special and limited direction. A piece lasting 17 minutes and consisting wholly of orchestral tissue without music. So he had quite an interesting view of it. He said, I've written only one masterpiece, Bolero. Unfortunately there's no music in it.

[Pat Wright]

That's the quote that I found. It's hysterical. It's a real musical experiment. I mean, from what I understand, it's a real musical experimentation. Can I do repetitive tune but orchestrate it in such a way that it's a compelling piece of music?

[Erica Minor]

Yes, it's partly that and also very much because it's so Spanish and we can talk about the Spanish part of his background. But it's the rhythm, those Spanish rhythms, that's really what captivates you more than anything else. It just really takes you away, as it were.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah, it propels forward. It's this building momentum. Anyway, we are not going to play any of the Bolero. You can either imagine it in your mind or look it up on YouTube or iTunes, or. It's everywhere. If you pull up Ravel's name, it's the first thing that shows up. But it's present in the culture for sure. But there's so much else that Ravel did, and there's a reason why he's being celebrated pretty much anywhere I look in classical music circles. This anniversary, this 150 years, is being.

[Erica Minor]

Celebrated absolutely all over the world. And it started right off here in Seattle in January very beginning. Our former music director, Ludovic Merlot, who is a native Frenchman, is now the conductor emeritus of the orchestra. And he started right out with a Ravel weekend at the beginning of January, focusing on Ravel's Mother Goose and then going on from there. So, yeah, it's. It's been celebrated from the very beginning of this year.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Pat Wright]

So I recommend any. Anyone who can pull up any Ravel music. It's a wonderful discovery. And Ravel does experiment. He brings in inspiration from a lot of musical styles, which I can, as not as a trained musician as you are, I can even hear a lot of those musical influences from other composers, older composers. And also, I understand later in his life he was quite interested in American jazz.

[Erica Minor]

He was. And in fact, interestingly, when he was at the Paris Conservatory in those days, the powers that be at that conservatory were very conservative. And so they really gave him a hard time about all of this experimentation that he did when it came to jazz and modernistic kinds of forms and what's called bitonality, writing in two different keys at once, all of this stuff, they gave him a really hard time about it, but he didn't care. He didn't care what anybody said. That's one of the great things about him. He just went on and did what his soul wanted him to do.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, I understand he had to leave.

[Pat Wright]

The conservatory at one point because he was so disfavored.

[Co-host or Guest]

And he tried multiple times to win.

[Pat Wright]

That coveted French prize, the Prix de Rome, which the other big names in French music that we know, pretty much, they've all won it. And he tried a number of times but never succeeded.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, that shows you what it can mean as far as winning prizes, because I know that various other composers, like Bizet, for instance, and Berlioz, all had to kowtow to what these conservative people who were running the conservativity wanted. And Berlioz Tried and tried again, I think, at least two or three times, to do his own what he felt was the most artistic important thing for him. And it didn't work. And finally he just decided, okay, I'm going to do exactly what they want me to do. And boom, he won the prize.

[Pat Wright]

Right.

[Erica Minor]

So Ravel wasn't interested in that. He was going to do what he felt was his art. And if it didn't win, it didn't win. That was that.

[Pat Wright]

Yes. And just another name I'll throw out there. One of his teachers at the Conservatory, who I understand did support him ultimately became the director, was Gabriel Foret.

[Erica Minor]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

What can you tell us about him?

[Erica Minor]

Well, Faure is one of my favorite French composers. I think his most famous piece probably is his Requiem. Pretty much everybody has heard it. I myself have played and sung it. It's an incredible piece. And he wrote a number of other absolutely stunning pieces. But he was a great teacher and he was a great influence on Ravel, which really meant something when you think about it, because somebody like Foret didn't teach just anyone. He was very, very specific about the kind of student he wanted. And it was Foret who influenced Ravel to emphasize composition over piano. Ravel was a very gifted pianist. He started studying with his mother when he was seven years old. But it was the influence of Foret that made him decide that he was going to do composition rather than piano.

[Pat Wright]

So he didn't have the full support of the institution of the Conservatory. But it seems like he did get a lot out of his connection with the Conservatory.

[Erica Minor]

Well, most people do. I think the great composers just made the most of it, whatever they could get from their experience there. And tor Ravel, it turned out beautifully. He again, he decided that if he was going to be an artistic outcast, he didn't care. He was just going to compose the way he felt he was born to do.

[Pat Wright]

Right. Well, he even joined a group in the 1910s, I believe, this group that called themselves the Hooligans. But this group of musicians who weren't necessarily favored by the establishment, the musical establishment in France, and it included people like Debussy. For a short period of time, Stravinsky was involved. And it was a number of these more experimental artistic minds coming together and they supported each other. It fell apart, more or less, with the coming of the First World War, as so many things did. But he did find community.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. And it's interesting in France what went on in the early 20th century, because in the 1920s, during the war, there was another group of composers called lesis or the 6. In fact, I'm giving a detailed lecture on these composers in a couple of weeks here. And the main one was Francis Poulain. But these composers, again, they were definitely pushing the envelope. They're like, enough with Wagner, enough with Debussy. We're going to do what we think is contemporary. And it turned out to be quite fascinating, not the least of which was that among these six composers, there actually was a woman, if you can imagine.

[Pat Wright]

How open minded of them, in 1920s Paris.

[Erica Minor]

That's really amazing. But yeah, France was definitely a hotbed of everything being a happening place back then.

[Pat Wright]

Well, it was a real draw for artists of all stripes, I think, of all sorts of artistic output. People were drawn to Paris. The internationality of the city was a place where you could get a lot of inspiration from people who come from many different backgrounds who wouldn't necessarily prejudge as establishments within the community might.

[Erica Minor]

Absolutely. And when you think about it, France was really right in the middle of everything. It was the heart of Europe. So naturally, this city of Paris was going to be the heart of not only musical but all artistic endeavor. Writers, painters, you name it, they all gathered there and they made a revolution in arts.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yes. Well, speaking about important women, we could, we can segue just a little bit to start talking about our focus work today. L' enfant et le Sotologe. Colette is the librettist and I imagine a lot of people are going, Colette, I've heard that name before. I think she's best known in America anyway as the. The woman who wrote the story Gigi, which becomes a very well known film. I mean, it's old at this point, but she was a very, very prolific writer and she was tapped to write this story before Ravel even came into the picture.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, that's a really interesting history of how that happened. He had already written one opera at that point and another one at the opera Le Raspagnol over the Spanish Hour. And then Colette was writing this ballet that was. You could call the Child and the Spells or the Child and the Enchantment. And it was planned as a ballet, but it was Rabel, after Colette approached him to write the music, who suggested that it be an opera instead. And so she really loved the idea and, well, the rest is history. But the way he combined the jazz elements with the bitonality of mixing different keys at once and all of the other. There's lots of special effects in this opera. Amazing effects. In both the orchestra and in the singers. Well, this was looked upon by Parisian opera goers as being very artificial. They did not appreciate it at all. Fortunately, it overcame all of that kind of resistance. And the. The other people who started appreciating the music said that it was extraordinary and bewitching, especially the sounds from the orchestra pit. So as a consequence, it became extremely popular and it still is. And both of his operas are produced regularly, both in France and abroad. Fortunately, because there's so much wonderful music and comedy and everything in these operas.

[Pat Wright]

Well, because we're not focusing fully on the Spanish Hour. L' Er Espanol, let's just take a minute to describe it because it became, again, both of these had a little resistance in the beginning, but then were embraced and beloved to the point that they continue to be produced today. But tell us a little bit about this 1911 one act opera, the Spanish Hour by Ravel.

[Erica Minor]

The Spanish Hour. It's absolutely charming and it's a bit or more than a bit irreverent. As a matter of fact, the comedy, it's a little bit, shall we say, spicy. And in fact, the head of the Opera Comique at the time put off the premiere because he was afraid that it was going to offend people. Especially a big part of his audience were these mothers and daughters of very proper families. And he thought, this is going to offend them. We can't have this done here. But fortunately there were a number of important musical people in Paris at the time who said, this is going to be great. Just overcome your prejudice and let's get it done. So they eventually did, but there's a lot going on. There's a lot of sexual innuendo, to.

[Pat Wright]

Say the least, but it's innuendo. There's nothing that a modern audience I think would find offensive.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, absolutely, no. But, you know, we're talking about more than 100 years ago. So, yeah, Ravel overcame that also with his librettist French writer named Franc Nohan. They set it in Spain. And this is kind of homage to Ravel's background with his mother having been Basque Spanish. And the way he used the orchestra in such a modernistic way was what they thought was a great way to show the comic effects that are very, very exaggerated. And he added to that very skillful vocal writing and a score that one critic said glows with the famous rail tendresse. And also, when you think about it, we'll get to this eventually. But there's that famous scene in his next Opera L' enfant Les Ort with the clock, the clock that the child will talk about what happens. But he slashes this poor. Or he pulls the pendulum out of this poor clock and damages it. Well, you have a little bit of the background coming from Le Espagnole with the clocks in that opera as well.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

And just a very brief synopsis of what goes on in the Spanish hour. You open up and you're in the workshop, the home of this clockmaker, the guy in charge of all the clocks, watches. And he's working away. A guy comes in and says, oh, can you fix my watch? He says, absolutely, I'd be happy to. But then his wife reminds him it's the time, it's the time of the week, like clockwork. He has to go out and make sure all the municipal clocks are set properly. He has a one hour obligation to the town every week. And sure enough, the moment he's gone, he tells the other gentleman to wait, that he'll be back in an hour. And after he leaves, first we get one suitor, lover of the wife coming in and he's pompous and in his one way. And then another one comes in and he's pompous in a different way. And it's just. It's a bedroom farce, you know, and does the thing that farces do where people are hiding behind doors and the wife is flirting with everyone. But she's a little tired of these two other lovers and she. She has them hide. They hide in clocks because you never know who's going to show up these grand, like grandfather clocks. Something that could actually hide a person. And as she's doing it, the guy who's originally come to get his watch fixed, he's a muleteer. He's a fellow who carries a lot of heavy stuff. He says, oh, little lady, can I help you? And he carries the clocks to her room with the men in them. At various points they go up, they go down. She wants this, she wants that. And no surprise at the end she actually finds she fancies the strong, innocent man. And something not so innocent happens right before the husband comes back all off stage. But it's charming, it's very, very funny. And the music is just. It just pulls you into this ridiculous, intriguing story.

[Erica Minor]

It does. And the characters are so well drawn that they're so appealing even, that you know that what she's doing is not on the up and up, so to speak. You still are drawn into her character, especially how she can get away with what she gets away with. And poor husband, who in the end, well, he says it's okay. In the end, even the muleteer has his turn. So it's. There's so much double entendre. It's so very, very French.

[Pat Wright]

Well, just to get a little flavor of that, let's listen to the very beginning of. And you get the sense of this workshop of a clock maker. That's a little flavor of how it starts out in the watchmaker's workshop. But it's not long till he's left. Let's just get another little flavor of the farce that is this little opera. The wife meets with the first lover who comes knocking.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, the tenor. He's a typical tenor. He's very full of himself, very arrogant. He thinks he's the best lover in the world. And in some productions, he literally falls to his knees and starts serenading her. But serenade keeps going on and on, and she's like, okay, the clock is ticking. Literally, the next lover is going to be due anytime now. So, you know, let's go on with it, shall we?

[Pat Wright]

Yes. In the version that I saw, he kept being so impressed with himself that he pulled out a little notepad to write down his poetry and his.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, my goodness, that's amazing. I mean, it was just.

[Pat Wright]

And she's like, I've got a schedule to keep here, friend.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Yeah.

[Erica Minor]

No, that's why the comic possibilities of this opera are almost limitless.

[Pat Wright]

Yes. Yes. Well, let's hear just a little bit of that interaction to give you a little more flavor. And hopefully, if you see this on a bill somewhere, you'll go see it. It may in fact be double built with l' enfant Les Sortiliges. It could be the two short Ravel operas or might be something else. But let's hear a little bit of that.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sam.

[Pat Wright]

So that was another piece from l' or Espanol, the Spanish Hour, the first short opera, one of two operas that Ravel composed. But let's talk about the Spanish influence a little bit, because not only was his mother Spanish, but I understand he was born and grew up quite close to the border of Spain in France, actually.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. The town he was born in, Sibur, is only 11 miles from the Spanish border. Now he moved to Paris. The family moved to Paris when he was only three months old.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

And.

[Erica Minor]

But when he was growing up from infancy, his mother sang to him Spanish songs in Spanish. So that's something that took hold of him from practically day one, as it were. So that Influence is very important to him. And so many of his works have a Spanish influence. So these kinds of works he wrote throughout his career, the Spanish coloring and the rhythms and everything having to do with Spain gave him a reason to use all the virtuoso elements in the modern orchestra. He also said that this opera, Le Raspagnol, satisfied his hunger for all that is Spanish. And it was an idealized Spain in many ways that came through his mother to him. So it was incredibly, incredibly important. Also in this opera, there's authenticity versus imagination. Well, to him, the authenticity didn't matter at all. It was the imagination that really was the more important element. And he sometimes said that this imagination was filtered through rose tinted opera glasses, which I thought it gives you a sense of what an amazing person he must have been. The Spanish nature of the text fit in with his Spanish roots. And also he had a number of important relationships with Spanish musicians. For instance, the Spanish pianist Ricardo Vinas, who also was a teacher of Francis Poulenc. So Spain was incredibly important to him and he got to expand all of that meaningfulness in this opera, the Spanish Hour.

[Pat Wright]

I love to hear about that, because I also know, aside from the influence that his mother had on just his musical upbringing from childhood, hearing this Spanish folk music, Ravel was. I'm not that everyone doesn't love their mother. People generally do. But he was really rocked to his core when his mother, in fact, died. It was during the period of the First World War later on. So Spanish hours premieres in 1911. First World War is later on in that decade when it begins. But that's part of what slows down his compositional output because he is just so bereft at the loss of this important, important person in his life.

[Erica Minor]

Absolutely, yes.

[Pat Wright]

Well, the mother herself is not present in a lot of this next opera, our focus opera. But she's very important.

[Erica Minor]

Well, she is. She begins it and ends it, when you think about it.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah, yeah, she does. Well, Erika, you mentioned the mother begins and ends this opera. The child and the spells, the enchantments. How does it begin with the mother? Because she's not on stage right at the beginning. It's just the child we see.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, it's true, but. And I'm going to inject here that Rau did use leitmotifs for the characters in this opera. And the one of the mother starts at the very beginning. You hear the oboe and then you hear the double bass. Solo double bass. And the clarinets. And they're playing a combination of the child's motif and the mother's motif right at the beginning, even before anybody starts singing. So, you know, and also the opera ends with that same leitmotif. So you know how very important the mother is. I mean, it's a child, of course. She's the most important person in his life.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah. So to a visual experience, she's not on stage in the beginning, but musically she's there right from the get go.

[Erica Minor]

Right from the get go. And it's interesting when you talk about mothers and children. Ravel absolutely loved children. He never had any of his own, but he was known as the man who always smiled, always had something nice to say to a child. In fact, he loved children so much that he often said he preferred their company to the company of adults. So it's not surprising that he wanted to write this opera about a child's transformation. The child behaves naughtily and at the end he gets it that he does have to be good after all. So it's so important to him to be able to portray this having to do with the child. The child is the center. It's the focus of everything in this opera, with all the other characters coming in and making the child's life difficult. But there's always an element of comic opera here. It was said that Debussy never wrote a comic opera and Ravel never wrote an entirely serious one. So this is among the wittiest operas ever composed. There's nothing any doubt. In fact, some people consider it his best, greatest work, as a matter of fact.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, that's interesting, isn't it? Because he has a lot of well regarded works.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, yes, he does. But this one has, as we will hear so much about it, that's so extraordinarily special.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yes. And my observation in watching various productions of this is. And the more time you spend with it, and if you read the libretto, and so this is Colette as well as Ravel, There's a deep understanding of the child's perspective. And I feel that it comes out, it's in the libretto. Yes, but it very much comes out when you hear the music and experience the opera.

[Erica Minor]

It's true, because the music, even though it's very witty, it's very charming, but it's very emotional. You hear any part of this opera and it evokes these emotions and you can't help yourself, it just draws you in.

[Pat Wright]

On that note, let us start with that introduction where we hear the theme of the mother and of the child. By the way, we don't have any names. Nobody's named with an individual name. It is the mother, the child. And the other characters we meet will also just be representative of their, well, species or item, whatever they characteristic or traits or. Yes, yes. So let's hear the very beginning of l' Enfant et les by Maurice Ravel. Well, now that we've set the scene with our brief orchestral introduction, we're going to hear the child sharing his thoughts.

[Erica Minor]

This child is typical little boy. He doesn't want to do anything he's supposed to do. He only wants to do what he's not supposed to do. And he's expressing it in music where he says, I don't want to do my homework. I just want to go take a walk or maybe eat all of the cakes and pastries, but I'm not doing this. So immediately he's protesting. And, you know, this does not bode well.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yes. And he moves from just wanting to self indulgence to causing mischief of a more destructive kind. I want to pull the cat's tail. I want to cut off the squirrels. I want to roar at everyone. He's just. He's had it like, don't make me sit. Sit in this chair any longer. And different opera companies will put this on in different ways. Visually, this is one of those operas, I think, where your experience of the whole piece of art is very much influenced by the director. Some just make everything large compared to who is usually an adult female singing this role of the child, the child, to make the child look small in this. In this setting. But let's hear this child throwing a bit of a fit. And then his mother comes in to check on him.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sam. And.

[Pat Wright]

Well, it's interesting because the mother comes in to check on him. And a little bit condescending. Have you been a good boy? Have you finished your lesson? And he rebels at first, silently. And she notices the destruction around him. You've spilled your paint. Aren't you sorry for your laziness? And he's not sorry. He sticks out his tongue at his mother. That's his offense. The mother doesn't take it well.

[Erica Minor]

Well, what mother would?

[Pat Wright]

Right? No, no. And her response is, you know what, what we would say now to kids. I'm going to give you a little thinking time. But that's accompanied with the. I want you to think about what you've done and what you ought to be doing. And by the way, you're going to have unsweetened tea and dry toast until supper time. Supper's on the horizon, but not at the moment. The snack that I've brought you, the little tea here to tide you over, will be present, but not typically glamorous.

[Erica Minor]

No, not. Not what he would like at all. He's talking about cake, and she's talking about a piece of dry bread. No, but that's his punishment, and he does not accept it at all. No sooner does she leave the room than he lashes out at everything around him.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, he really does. And as I said before, this can be interpreted so many different ways in different productions. And you've had experience with more than one production yourself, haven't you?

[Erica Minor]

Well, I have. And from a very early age, when I was just a fellowship student at Tanglewood and just a teenager, and we did it in a concert version. I had never heard of the piece, let alone heard the piece, didn't know of its existence. But I was always interested in everything French from the time I was a kid. So I thought, well, this has got to be good. And from the very first note, I was completely enchanted by it, even though it was just us, the orchestra, on stage with the singers. And there is not. There are no costumes, nothing like that. But it completely drew me in from the very, very beginning. So I learned a lot about Ravel from that experience. I learned a lot about opera. I learned a lot about characterization, all of that. It drew me in in such a way that I could visualize everything that was going on. It was absolutely wonderful. And so that love for the piece of started then, and it stayed with me all the way till the next time I played it, which was at the Met.

[Pat Wright]

I just want to comment on your experience at Tanglewood, because I have never experienced this as a concert opera, but I could even make an argument that it might be more effective in concert version because of what you said. You get to imagine. It's like when you're reading a book, all the pictures are in your brain. And I found that with the different. The very different interpretations I've seen of l' enfant et les, it colors the way you experience it. And then I sat down and just straight read the libretto. And there's description that Colette has put in the libretto of what's going on that isn't necessarily transferred onto the stage by the different directors who mount this production. And I almost wonder if it would be a very different experience, the one that you had if you had simply the music and the language and you could fill in the pieces with your imagination. It's a fascinating idea. And I haven't. I've seen concert operas streaming, but not of this particular opera. But anyway, I just wanted to appreciate what you said about the way Tanglewood presented it those years ago. But you also experienced it at the Met.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, Actually, it was in 1981 that we did a triple bill of French music. The first piece was actually a ballet. It was called Parade or Parade, and it was music by Eric Satie, who a lot of people know from his Gymnospedit and those very quirky, weird pieces of music. It was a ballet that reflected what was going on with World War II. There are even people with gas masks on the stage. Then the second piece was a comic opera, one act comic opera by Francis Poulain called Les Mamelles de Tresias, or the Breasts of Tresias. And that was absolutely slapstick satire from the get go, but with a little theme in the background about having to replace all of the people that were lost in the world wars by having babies. So there's this satirical but also serious theme behind it. And then the third piece of the triple bill was l' enfant les Artilleiges. And the Met did it in a semi staged kind of way. So the orchestra was still in the pit, but the singers were actually on both sides of the stage and the action was in the middle of the stage. So the action was going on, the child was acting and the person singing was singing on the side. So that was an interesting way of solving how you're going to stage the production. The other fascinating thing was this piece at that production at that time was conducted by Manuel Rosenthal, who, interestingly enough, was a student of Ravel. So here I have one degree of separation from Ravel, because I played it with Manuel Rosenthal, who was a Ravel student and later on even arranged some of Ravel's music. This was one of his most important students. So here he was, from the Horse's mouth, conducting this opera. So the interpretation that I got from that was just priceless. I mean, you can't even put a value on it. It was so amazing. And I think it worked with the singers on the side. The critics weren't all of the same opinion about that. So I think you're right. And this kind of brings to mind actually something having to do with different productions because of the visual element. Walt Disney actually wanted to do an animated film of this opera back.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, I can totally imagine that, yes.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah. I don't know, the 30s or 40s, something like that. And when you think about it, what a Perfect way to portray all this phantasmagoria because it does require a certain amount of special effects. And with animation you can do anything, especially if you're Walt Disney. Well, guess what? They started negotiating about this and then Disney said, but of course we have to do it in English. And that was it. Nope, not going to happen. And when you hear it, you know this stuff is impossible to translate. Yes, you can read a translation, but to sing it in English, it just would not work the same. There's something about the French language, especially in this piece, that does not convert at all. It has to be in French. So I totally get that. But I then saw another production very recently, a couple of years ago here in Seattle. Ludovic Moreau, the former music director, did a version of La Femme staged with the orchestra on stage, of course, and the singers on stage in costume. So it was kind of semi stage, a little bit of direction going on with some movements and interaction. But to me, the star of it, aside from the music and the story, were these costumes. Yes, they were unimaginable. I can't even begin to describe how amazing they were. Each one of them looked like a painting. It was fantastic. So that played up the whole characterization of each person who was singing, had this costume to back up what they were singing about. So fantastic stuff. Just amazing.

[Pat Wright]

All the different versions that I have seen, most of which I've seen streaming on the computer, the costumes are what an opportunity for a costumer to picked different animals. And they might not necessarily be fully representational, just little hints of those animals, birds, insects, also pieces of furniture in the house. It's just there is so much opportunity and I could see why someone like Disney would, would want to do this as an animated piece. Absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking of Beauty and the Beast, how they animate all these things that are not people. But that doesn't. That didn't happen because it had to be in French.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, that's the way the French are. And you know, you have to admit, well, the language is. It's the language, it's its own entity.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, well, that's why we typically see operas. No matter where they're performed these days, we typically see them in the language that they were composed in the original language. And we, we use translations to help us understand the dialogue.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

But.

[Pat Wright]

But the singing, it's pretty much a consensus. I understand that unless you're performing just for children. Just for children, then you don't translate.

[Erica Minor]

No. And of course, now we have subtitles above the Stage or whether it's at the Met, they're actually on the backs of the seats. But we didn't have that back then. So it was something where it used to be. And as I put in my books, the protagonist, the violinist who investigates these murders, she always. She's a violinist at the Met. Surprise. And she always studies the libretto of every opera before she plays it because she wants to understand exactly what's going on. And so that's what people used to do. You buy the libretto at the Met gift shop and study the translation. So you knew exactly what was going on. So there's something to be said for that also.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, I went to the opera recently. I saw Turandot with a friend. And I am familiar with Turandot. I hadn't given it any thought, but my friend, also familiar with Turandot, seen it a number of times as well. But he read the entire libretto beforehand so that he was much more up on it. So again, it's another technique. It's a little like when you listen to the opera for everyone, shows you're prepared for the opera if you do any amount of research and looking at the text. And it's often the text that inspires the music for the composers, although sometimes it goes the other way, where the composer writes something. And this happened even with Colette, where they write something and said, okay, I need some words to go with these bars of music. But it's. I mean, this is why we love opera, because it has all these different elements that. That are pulled together and your imagination can run wild. The imagination of the people who are staging it.

[Co-host or Guest]

It's just.

[Pat Wright]

It's such a rich art form. Well, this child. We're coming back to our story. This child, he's throwing an ever loving fit, I would say he is poking with the poker in the fire and he's kicking over the. The meager snack that his mother has left him, breaking the teapot and the teacup. And he tears off bits of the wallpaper. The wallpaper, by the way, it's one of those. I mean, I've usually seen it in upholstery, but you have this pastoral scene with shepherds and shepherdesses and sheep and other animals. And he tears up his books and he's exhausted and he tries to flop down into the armchair.

[Erica Minor]

And he also pulls out the pendulum of the grandfather clock.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, of course.

[Erica Minor]

And this is also something that is a little bit taken from Le Espagnole. So because of all the clocks, he got to throw in a little Bit about a clock in this one as well.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, well.

[Co-host or Guest]

And the clock will have his own.

[Pat Wright]

Say he will soon. But first it's going to be the chairs. There's an armchair and a Bergere, which I had to look up. I wasn't familiar with that term. It's a kind of upholstered armchair where the arms are maybe exposed.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, an antique kind of thing.

[Pat Wright]

An antique. So he's got nice things in his room, the books and the pretty wallpaper. But when he tries to flop down.

[Co-host or Guest]

In the chair, the chair is not having it.

[Erica Minor]

No.

[Pat Wright]

This is when we move from the real world to the not so real world. When he, exhausted flops down into the chair.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. And I've always felt that it's his guilty conscience that evokes all of these things starting to get their revenge on him coming to life and saying, you're not going to sit here, you've been naughty. What are you thinking?

[Pat Wright]

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting, you talk about different productions. When I was poking around looking into this, I actually came across in the archives, which are available online, of the San Francisco Opera. San Francisco was the United States location where the premiere of this took place. The US premiere was in San Francisco and it translates the title and the English translation has greater prominence in the program than the French name. But it's the dream of the naughty child. And I'm thinking, oh, I hadn't thought of it watching it before, but it's when he's. After all this naughtiness, when he throws himself down into the chair, maybe he has fallen asleep. I mean, it's not depicted this way in any of the shows that I've seen.

[Co-host or Guest]

But maybe he has fallen asleep.

[Pat Wright]

And the rest that follows right until the end is a dream that works.

[Co-host or Guest]

Actually, it could.

[Erica Minor]

It could work.

[Co-host or Guest]

One never knows.

[Erica Minor]

It could work. I'm a little bit biased when it comes to that with my screenwriting background, because one of the so called rules is that using a dream sequence is a cop out. And it depends in this case on your sense of what's real and what's fantasy. The whole idea is that it's the child and the enchantments. So to me it seems very real. I totally see a possibility of furniture coming to life and of animals speaking and things that you don't think are possible. I believe in the impossible. And so I think a dream could be one interpretation, but I totally am down with the whole idea of, yeah, it actually happens. He is so over the top with his tantrum and his Mistreatment and his nastiness, that they come alive to take their revenge.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, but here, the revenge, it's pretty mild, honestly.

[Co-host or Guest]

They just basically make it impossible for.

[Pat Wright]

Him to rest in the chair. They say, no more cushions, no more comfort from us.

[Co-host or Guest]

You could have to just lay on.

[Pat Wright]

The cold, hard floor. But that's just the beginning.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, it gets much worse. It gets worse.

[Pat Wright]

Well, we have our grandfather clock saying his piece.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, we do.

[Pat Wright]

Laser. Oh, Erica, that poor clock. He says he has a tummy ache because the draft is coming through where his pendulum no longer is in place because of the child.

[Erica Minor]

That child. That child.

[Pat Wright]

Well, he also gets a little philosophical and he says, if the child hadn't mutilated me, perhaps things would be different. I mean, does make you stop and think, doesn't it?

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, but they're just getting started.

[Pat Wright]

They're just getting started. Well, remember that teapot and the teacup that he shoved off the table in his fury and broke them on the floor? Well, they've got a few things to say, too.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, absolutely.

[Pat Wright]

That teapot. By the way, I love this part. When I first heard it, I'm like, wait, I'm hearing English. He sings. The teapot sings in English. Because tea.

[Erica Minor]

Because tea, because Ravel, because Colette. You know, anything goes in this opera.

[Pat Wright]

That's right. And the cup, it's a China cup.

[Co-host or Guest]

So of course it's in.

[Pat Wright]

Well, whatever Colette and Ravel imagined to be Chinese. Yeah, it's really. It's really quite. Quite sweet. Quite fun. But they're mad at the child, too.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah. This is serious stuff. And they throw in words like mahjong. I mean, how funny is that?

[Pat Wright]

Ping pong?

[Erica Minor]

The first time I heard it, I practically fell over. It was just so hysterical.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, yes. But we'll hear a little bit of those. But interestingly, this is the first moment after the teapot and the China teacup have had their say that you hear just a little expression of remorse from the child.

[Erica Minor]

Just a little, though he's still in his snit.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, yeah. Just a little opening of remorse happening there because he's sad that he's broken these things. Yeah, and they are. They're angry at him. And the teapot wants to. Talking like a boxing champion, Colette tells us. But he was like, I'm gonna box with you. The teapot's this masculine creature in the tea teacup is always depicted as a feminine creature with her lovely tea saucer skirt. That's how it's typically costumed. But let's hear a little bit of these characters.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

How is your Meg? Better head.

[Erica Minor]

Come on.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Black and cost to black and cheek. Black, black, black. Jolly fellow. Jolly fellow. Black. I punch her. I punch you. I punch. I knock out juice. Black black and thick and red bogus and red bogus. I boho ch sahur Sam.

[Pat Wright]

You're listening to Opera for Everyone, a radio show and podcast that embraces drama and story through love of music. Opera for Everyone airs Sundays from 9 to 11am Mountain Time on 89. 1 Khol Jackson, Wyoming's only community radio station. If you'd like to hear more conversations about opera, please join us on the Opera for Everyone podcast. And if you subscribe and rate us, you'll be helping with our mission to bring opera to everyone by helping others find this show. Stay with us. The second half of today's show is coming right up. Welcome back to the second half of Opera for Everyone. Today we're focusing on Maurice Ravel in observance of the 150th anniversary of his birth. And I'm here with Erica Minor. Erica was a violinist with the Met Opera Orchestra for many, many years. She currently speaks and she's a wonderful writer of opera mysteries. And I am so delighted, Erica, to have you here with me today to talk about L' Enfant et Les, one of Ravel's operas, and also just Ravel in general. Thank you for being here, Erika.

[Erica Minor]

A pleasure as always, Pat. Yes.

[Pat Wright]

Well, before we carry on and we have so many things that we can talk about, I do want to let everyone know about the performers in the clips that we've been listening to. This was a recording made in 1960 with the conductor Lauren Mazel with the French National Radio Orchestra and Chorus. And I'm going to let you, Erika, tell you about the singers because her French is so much better than mine.

[Erica Minor]

Well, I'm cheating because I've been studying French all my life and I have a great deal of love for the language. So the singers on this recording, even though this is considered the most prominent recording of this piece, are not that well known in this country. But I will say their names anyway. The child almost always sung by a soprano is Francoise Augiere. The other singers sing multiple roles, most of them Janine Collard, Jane Barbier, Sylvain Guilmart, Colette Herzog, Heinz Resius, Camille Moran, and Michel Seneschal. Now, incidentally, Michel Seneschal, who is among these, the one that I actually performed with at the Met, also sings the role, the tenor role, in Le Raspagnole And Jane Berdier sings the role of Concepcion on this recording of Le Espagnole. So they are specialists in singing Ravel. And kudos to them.

[Pat Wright]

Yes. We're so grateful for this lovely music that we've had a chance to listen to, and so grateful to you. And ericaminer.com is where you can find more out about Erika and all the good work that she does with speaking and writing and how you can get in touch with her if you need to.

[Erica Minor]

Absolutely.

[Pat Wright]

So, Erica, thank you. Yes. And the Julia Cogan opera mystery series, if you're looking for that, it's, oh, help me, Prelude to Murder, Overture to Murder, and Aria for Murder. Aria for Murder. You're sensing a little bit of a theme there, right?

[Erica Minor]

Just a little bit. As a matter of fact, though, each of these books in the series can be read as a standalone. You don't have to necessarily read them in order. But the main protagonist, Julia, is, surprise, surprise, a young violinist at the Met. Write what you know. And she is involved in all three books, each of which takes place at a different opera house. So for those who love mystery and those who love opera, I'm sure you'll enjoy reading the series.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, I can endorse that 100%. And it is fun. They don't have to be read in order. They can be read as standalones. However, it's fun to see her developing in her role as a gifted violinist. Yes, it's a fun, fun series. And I've said before, I love the backstage glimpses into what goes on to creating an opera. So many things.

[Erica Minor]

Well, most people who go to the opera see the glamour and all of the glitz, especially about the Met. But because most people don't know about the kinds of rivalries that go on backstage, even in the orchestra pit. I like to say that one of the reasons I decided to write this series was so I could kill off some of the people who made my life miserable. I mean, how much fun is that, you know? So, yes, Julia starts out as this naive violinist who doesn't know anything about all the infighting that goes on. But she soon starts to mature, especially when she gets into murder investigations and ends up the target of a nasty killer. So it's a lot of fun to see how she develops into someone naive, into someone pretty savvy.

[Pat Wright]

Yes. And it doesn't hurt that she's found herself a very nice partner along the way.

[Erica Minor]

Well, let's not say too much about that. Let people find out for themselves.

[Pat Wright]

My lips Are sealed. All right. Well, Erika, before we return to the story of this child who behaves in a naughty way, could we talk a little bit more about Ravel? Because when I first started looking into him, not in relationship to this opera, but just in general, the word that comes up over and over again is orchestration. And what a master he was at orchestration and didn't only orchestrate his own works, but others as well.

[Erica Minor]

That is true. Ravel is considered the great master of orchestration of all time in music. And just to give you a little definition of what orchestration means, it's when a composer decides which instruments are going to play which music and the reasons for that. Ravel studied in great detail. It was very meticulous about studying the ability of each instrument, each orchestral instrument and its potential. That's what made him famous. So he put the individual colors and the timbres of these instruments to maximum use. Of course, not only in his own works, but in works by other composers. He orchestrated works by such diverse composers as Robert Schumann, Debussy. But his most famous orchestration of all is of Mussorski's Piano Suite of Pictures at an Exhibition. That's the one for which Ravel is best known.

[Pat Wright]

Erika, I have to tell you, Mussorski's Pictures at an Exhibition is one of my earliest experiences with classical music. I've said before in this show that I didn't grow up in a family where classical music or opera, any of that was listened to only pop and American musicals. And so it's been as a college student and then as an adult that I've experienced this Music and Pictures at an Exhibition. I didn't know who Ravel was, but it really helped bring me into this wonderful world of music.

[Erica Minor]

Well, I'm happy to know that because it's such an accessible piece because it has a program, it has a story to it that each piece is related to a painting. And this is something that almost everybody can relate to.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah, it's a fun. It was a good way in to this door of all of this amazing music. But I also understand that Ravel, for a lot of his compositions, because he was such a gifted pianist, started out with piano compositions.

[Erica Minor]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

And then later created orchestrations for them of his own work.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, he did many, many of his own works. In fact, it's interesting, almost all of his works were piano works. There's only maybe one that actually started originally as an orchestral work. That was Daphnis and Chloe. The rest were reworkings of piano pieces. So it's interesting that he was able to so successfully orchestrate his own pieces and make them accessible for everybody in that way.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah. It's a fascinating process. Again, as you think about all of the skills and elements involved in bringing these works of art to life for concert goers like me to enjoy and our listeners, mostly. I think. Although I understand that we have some musicians who listen as well, who've maybe played some of these pieces. But I'm just so grateful to know more about Ravel and grateful to you for bringing our attention to him.

[Erica Minor]

Well, I'm always happy to talk about Ravel. Great, great. Love.

[Pat Wright]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, while we're on the topic of being off topic, he came to New York, I understand, to help along introducing this opera to people in America. Is that right?

[Erica Minor]

Yes. Yes, he did. He took the opera on tour to the States. And when he was in New York, he had a remarkable experience with the audience. Because the audience, at this point, I forget. I think it was in the late 1920s. And the audience, of course, at this point, he was very famous. They knew who he was. They had a great respect and love for him. And he said that when he entered the concert hall, they all stood up. And his remark was, you know, this doesn't happen to me in Paris. And I thought that was so extraordinary. I'm like, isn't that wonderful that he got that kind of appreciation here? I just think it's marvelous.

[Pat Wright]

It is interesting. Do you think audiences in Europe are different from audiences in the United States?

[Erica Minor]

Oh, I think they absolutely must be. I think they are. And they're different in every country. I mean, talk about off topic. When the Met went on tour to Japan and we were there twice in two different years, I had an experience there that I've never had anywhere. And that is when the orchestra did. We did one concert, just orchestra alone on stage. And the first thing that happened was that they lined the entire stage, the front of the stage, with flowers.

[Pat Wright]

Ooh.

[Erica Minor]

Which was. I thought, okay, so this is already a class act. And then at the end, all of these people in the audience came up to the stage to applaud us. But even better is that when all was said and done and we were coming out of the stage door, after we had all packed up and ready to go, the audience was standing at the stage door applauding each one of us as we came out of the stage door.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, my goodness.

[Erica Minor]

I have never experienced that anywhere ever in the world. I thought that. I'll never forget that. That Just made everything worthwhile. You know, I can't.

[Pat Wright]

That, you know, it's just. It's a different cultural, different set of expectations. But it's good to appreciate the people who have put all that effort into their art and share it with the rest of us. It's wonderful. I. I don't know if it was in New York or not, but I know that Stravinsky, who we've talked about a few times here on Opera for Everyone. I know that he encountered Ravel at some point. Stravinsky being older than Ravel.

[Erica Minor]

Well, Ravel, of course, there were so many great musicians and so many great musical events going on in France in the early 20th century. And as you probably know, one of these events was Stravinsky. Le Sac du Printemps, the Rite of Spring.

[Pat Wright]

Ah, so this is during his time. This is during Stravinsky's time in Paris.

[Erica Minor]

Stravinsky's time in Paris. Well, actually, he left Russia at a quite early age, so he was in Paris quite early on. And of course, everybody knew everybody back then in the music world, as they pretty much do now. And Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, of course, caused a literal riot when it was performed. It was just too avant garde. Nobody understood what was going on except Ravel. Ravel was the only musician who told Stravinsky he absolutely understood everything about it. He really got it, appreciated its greatness. And he predicted that this piece, the Rite of String, would become as important as Debussy's opera. Oh, wow. Yeah. And he was right. It became one of the most important works in all of music. The Rite of Spring.

[Pat Wright]

Absolutely.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

That is the name that pops up when you start looking into Stravinsky. Oh, that's fascinating. And I also have heard, speaking of big names, that there's a little bit of a small connection between Ravel and Gershwin. George Gershwin.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, there is. Now, I'm not quite sure if they actually met, but the influence is there. Ravel, of course, used a lot of jazz in his music. For instance, not just in l', Enfant, but also, for instance, in his G Major Piano Concerto, which is one of my favorite of all of his works. There's a lot of jazz elements in that as well. So that when you hear this G major Piano concerto, and then you listen to anything of Gershwin, you can hear the influence and back. Going back and forth between both composers.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

And also I've heard this story that Gershwin, who so admired Ravel, asked for him to become a teacher for a period of time in piano and technique. And Ravel gave it some thought and said, no, no, I can't do it because you're so talented and so natural. If I. I don't want to impose or even infect you with the strictures of what I know about piano. You just keep doing what you're doing. He told George Gershwin, I don't want to mess that up. And there were other teachers as well who didn't want to mess up Gershwin. And Gershwin went off to do what he did.

[Erica Minor]

Well, because he was an extraordinary talent. But it's interesting also that I read that Ravel was known to have said that he actually preferred jazz to grand opera.

[Pat Wright]

Interesting.

[Erica Minor]

Which is very interesting. And of course it had a huge influence on his music. But I thought that's really why he didn't write grand opera. His two main operas, the ones that were completed, the ones that are being performed, are comic operas. They're not grand opera, they're opera comique kinds of operas.

[Pat Wright]

One act.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah. So it's entirely possible that he preferred jazz to grand opera. He thought it was probably too pretentious or interesting.

[Pat Wright]

Well, you had mentioned to me earlier when we were preparing for this, that there were other operas that Ravel began composing, but we only have these two completed operas. But there were others.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, there were three other operas that he worked on aside from the two comic operas that he completed that we've been discussing. One is called Olympia, another one called La Cloche Anglouti, which means basically the Sunken Clock. And another one was Joan of Arc.

[Pat Wright]

Oh, wow.

[Erica Minor]

So Olympia was supposed to be based on A story by E.T.A. hoffman, famous for his tales of Hoffman opera that Offenbach later wrote.

[Pat Wright]

Right.

[Erica Minor]

Ravel wrote sketches for that. Didn't get very far. Then he started writing La Cloche en Dutiti after another short story by a different author, and he did not finish that either. And then he destroyed the sketches for both of them. So there's nothing extant of that, unfortunately at all, except for one brief piece called Symphony Ologier, interestingly, which basically means a symphony with a watch theme or a clock theme.

[Pat Wright]

Here we go again with the watch and clock. Right.

[Erica Minor]

Well, he actually incorporated that little bit of music into Le Rasspanol. And then the third one about Joan of Arc, it was supposed to be an operatic version of a novel from 1925 by the French writer Joseph Deltaile about Joan of Arc. It was intended to be a large scale, full length work for the Paris Opera. So a grand opera, but a grand opera. At that point he was ill and he Was never able to finish it, sadly.

[Pat Wright]

Oh yeah, that would not have been a comic opera on Joan of Arc and his illness towards the end of his life. It's quite sad where he's unable to continue composing at a certain point.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, it was really tragic, actually. It happened in 1932, he died in 37, he was in a taxi accident and he suffered a concussion from that and he never really recovered. I think these days it would probably be called a traumatic brain injury. But they back then, they really didn't know much about it at all. All they knew was that he started getting absent minded and having little characteristics like that. He also was working on music for a film version of don Quixote in 1933. But for that reason, I think because of this TBI, he was unable to stick with the production schedule. So all that he got written were three songs for the baritone. Interestingly, Manuel Rosenthal, the conductor with whom I performed a l' enfant at the Met, right, who had been a student of Ravel, helped to transcribe these three songs so that they could be performed. But sadly after that, Ravel was unable to compose not one note more of music and he died in 1937. So very sad that it had to be that premature death for him, unable to finish those pieces.

[Pat Wright]

Right. It is. In fact, when I was reading about Bolero, they say that's one of his last fully completed works before the illness made that impossible for him. Well, we're so glad that we have the music that we do from Maurice Ravel. It's enchanting. I guess, pun intended there with the reference to our naughty child. Our naughty child who's beginning to get little glimmers of understanding the consequences of behavior. Just glimmers because it needs to be hammered home a lot more by other characters. We usually do an opera helmet quiz when we launch into the second half. Well, we've gone beyond launching at this point, but just to say our story, the Child and the Spells, or the Child and the Enchantments, begins with a child, which is what we see on stage. And here there's a child, he has an encounter with his mother. He's disappointed her by not doing his homework. She chastises him and says, well, you know, see you again at dinner time. And he throws up an ever loving fit, destroying things, hurting things, and even one of the things he does what we didn't mention yet, but he pokes through the cage bars at a squirrel that he's keeping in a cage, a wild creature. And to poke him better, he opens the door. The squirrel does manage to escape, but when he's exhausted from all of his tantrum, the furniture rebels against him because he treats the furniture badly too. The chairs are mad at him, the clock is mad at him, and now the wallpaper that he's ripped off is going to be mad at him.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, that's quite an incredible scene with this wallpaper of the shepherds and the shepherdesses, because what he does is he tears it off right in between them. So they're complaining about the fact that this nasty child has separated the shepherds from the shepherdesses, and they're singing adieu, adieu, goodbye, we may never see each other again. It's terribly sad. And I think it's that point where he starts beginning to understand that what he's done does have consequences for the, shall we say, characters that he has perpetrated these terrible acts upon. So starts to get to him, but I think mostly with having ripped apart his book of fairy tales and he's lost his beloved princess. So now it's really beginning to get to him.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, let's hear just a little bit of the shepherd and the shepherdesses, and then we're going to hear a little bit more. We'll come back and listen a little bit to this princess, because she is beloved and has a way of reaching him. But here, the shepherd, shepherdesses.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Ram.

[Pat Wright]

Sa.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sam.

[Pat Wright]

Erica. I just love that piece between the shepherd and the shepherdesses. I find it a beautiful piece of music, but also a window into childhood and what children do, because they talk about the other characters who are on this wallpaper with them. They talk about the green sheep and the violet goat and the pink lambs and the purple cherries and the blue dog, because you can just picture in your head a the child who is scribbled with his crowns on the wallpaper.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, yes, indeed. That's how they express themselves. It's a personal connection with what he sees on the wall.

[Pat Wright]

Absolutely. And you also mentioned the princess, who's the next character to appear in this cavalcade of characters. And the princess, she points out to him, well, in your tantrum, you have ripped up my book. My story cannot continue for you.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, and that's where the tragedy begins to occur to him as to what he's actually done. He's torn up the book in his rage. And she points out the fact that when he asks, are you lost to me? She said, yes, I'm lost to you. And then he asks about, but what about your prince? Your knight in charming armor. And she says, we'll never know because he destroyed the book. And so, farewell. I'm gone.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, yes.

[Pat Wright]

And she even says, as of yesterday, when you read me, I was your first love. Yes, you've ruined it. And the line that the princess says, that gets to me the most and I think is really the heart of this story. When he's casting about saying, isn't there a way we can solve this with your knight? And she's like, nope, it's not going to happen. She finally says, alas, my weak little friend, what can you do for me? And that, to me, gets at the heart of part of what this entire story is saying about childhood. Because here's this child who has the strength to be destructive and throw a tantrum, but he doesn't really have any strength. He doesn't really have any power or ability to affect change in the adult world. And she's more or less pointing this out to him. You are little and you are weak.

[Erica Minor]

And it's true, because children have so many emotions that they rarely get to express. And at some point they realize that, yes, I'm going to have to grow up. And I think this is the moment where that inevitability occurs to him. Look what I've done. It really has destroyed the person who was most near and dear to me. And at some point, he's going to have to hold himself accountable for that, which means growing up.

[Pat Wright]

It's poignant because he's struggling with this, how to handle these big feelings. And obviously the growing up is off there on the horizon. Yes, let's hear a little bit of this poignant moment when the princess calls him my weak little friend.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sa Sam Ra k sam sailing, flailing.

[Pat Wright]

With how to handle these emotions. And he even tosses around looking for a sword so he can be powerful and do the good thing. But he's ultimately left alone. She gets drawn back into from whence she came. She is drawn away from him, and he is alone and desolate. At least that's what it tells us in the libretto.

[Erica Minor]

Yes.

[Pat Wright]

And he's. He sadly sings about his loss and honestly, his love for this princess.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, yes. It's one of his deep feelings. And he can only express it now to himself because she's gone.

[Pat Wright]

Right? Big feelings. As we say to the kids these days, you are having big feelings. And he is. And he thinks, oh, wait, I have an idea. There are all these torn pages around on the floor. And he casts about trying to find more of the princess's. Story. But he only finds his school books that he's torn up.

[Erica Minor]

Well, that's another story. So unfortunately for him, he happens upon the school books, which is the ones that he really wanted to destroy. And it's every child's nightmare that this particular book comes alive and starts talking at him so rapidly. You can hardly. I mean, even if you're fluent in French, you have to really listen to this, to this arithmetic book saying all of the four times four is 33. And this child is like, four times four is 33. You know, it goes all completely wacko crazy. And it's just wonderful. He's absolutely delirious over this.

[Pat Wright]

This is.

[Erica Minor]

Me.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Daza.

[Pat Wright]

Erica.

[Co-host or Guest]

One of the other characters that we.

[Pat Wright]

Hear in this scene where he's still in his room because he won't remain.

[Co-host or Guest]

Contained in his room for the entire show.

[Pat Wright]

But one of the other characters that.

[Co-host or Guest]

We hear from is the fireplace.

[Erica Minor]

Ah, yes, the fire. This was one thing that when I played this at Tanglewood, I. I can still remember the moment when I first heard that music, because Ravel so brilliantly orchestrated it with special effects. You can hear the fire surging. It's just terrifying. And it must be terrifying to the child as well, when the fire comes to life and starts accusing him of having poked with the poker and messing everything up. And she said, you know, I only warmed the good ones, but I burn the bad ones. And he's like. And then she dances around and he really is depending on the production, but he's absolutely terrified that she's going to jump on him and burn him. And this is one of the first incidences of when he realizes, what have I done? This is just too frightening. He's in danger here. So it's a big part of his realization that, as you said, his acts have consequences. The coloratur that Ravel wrote for this role is absolutely stunning. A real tour de force for the coloratura. And in fact, the singer who sang it at Tanglewood way back then, her name is Phyllis Brynjolson, she later became very famous in New York City for singing contemporary music. She's absolutely stunning singer. So, yeah, things all do get connected in the music world. But this. This aria for the Color tour is absolutely stunning.

[Pat Wright]

Well, we'll have to hear a little bit of that. The fire lapping.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, yes.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sa.

[Pat Wright]

All these elements of his room. The princess, the wallpaper, the school books, the chairs. And at the end of this first part, which moves rather smoothly between the two parts, but at the end, we have two Creatures who don't speak to him in a language that he understands. Aren't the cats going to say something? Oh, well, no, they're going to be cats because why would they come down from their cat heights and debase themselves by being human like. And that's actually, I think, a very funny commentary on Colette and also Ravel's understanding of cats.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. And how he was able to have them sing and sound exactly like cats. That's brilliant.

[Pat Wright]

Ra. After the cats have their little exchange and he's remember he wanted to pull the cat's tail before. This is another additionally layered magical moment when the cat's make their way outside. But instead of just going outside, we have a whole transition where the walls separate, the ceiling lifts. I mean, at least that's how it's described in the libretto. And we're outside in the garden. We're outside in nature.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, we are. Ravel does something else even more brilliant with this music because he orchestrates in such a way that each instrument portrays the sound that. That these animals make. The frogs, the mosquitoes, the crickets, all of them. He does it with instruments. It's absolutely brilliant. Every time I hear it, I'm blown away by it.

[Pat Wright]

Did the violins have to handle any of that?

[Erica Minor]

No, no, that was, as you can imagine, it's something more like piccolo, very high pitched and percussion and that sort of thing.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sa.

[Co-host or Guest]

We'Re outside now in the garden.

[Pat Wright]

And the child is feeling relief.

[Co-host or Guest]

What happiness to see you again.

[Pat Wright]

My garden. And he leans against a tree, the.

[Erica Minor]

Tree, the poor tree that he almost destroyed with his madness.

[Pat Wright]

Yes, we're outside for the first time in this show. But the tree groans with the pain of the fact that he's taken a.

[Co-host or Guest]

Knife and slashed him. So we didn't even see this part happening.

[Pat Wright]

But we know it's happened and we find it entirely believable that this boy, this child would have stabbed a tree. Why not?

[Erica Minor]

Well, he took the pendulum away from the clock, so why wouldn't he stab a poor tree?

[Co-host or Guest]

That's right.

[Pat Wright]

But the child again is continuing to feel some pity, some remorse about the harm that he's inflicted. And next we hear from the dragonfly, and it's truly piteous, I think, because.

[Co-host or Guest]

The dragonfly comes in looking for someone.

[Pat Wright]

Looking for its mate. Where are you? Where are you?

[Co-host or Guest]

I'm alone. And then she finally sees the child and says, give my companion back to me.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, it's a terrible accusation, but it's all too real because the child does know that it's A consequence of what he's done.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. He feels sad, but he says, I can't. I caught him and I pinned him to the wall.

[Erica Minor]

Oh, my God. It's just, how could he have done that? And he's asking himself, how could I have done this? He's beginning to realize again, the consequences. It's part of his transformation.

[Pat Wright]

Exactly.

[Co-host or Guest]

And then the bat shows up. And the bat is complaining about the other bat that has been killed by this child. This child has killed a bat. And he explains there's a nest full of little ones and they no longer have a mother.

[Erica Minor]

This is where it gets really heavy.

[Co-host or Guest]

And the child does gasp and say, sans mere, without a mother. Motherless. And he's really feeling it because he knows how important his own mother is to him.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. That's a theme that runs through the.

[Pat Wright]

Entire piece, opening and closing it, as you said right at the beginning of our discussion.

[Co-host or Guest]

So this. This fact that he has caused other little ones to become motherless is really.

[Pat Wright]

Really getting to him. But we don't wallow in this sadness.

[Co-host or Guest]

We. We next have a.

[Pat Wright]

A sort of adorable little scene when the frogs come out.

[Erica Minor]

Yes, the frogs. The counterpart to the cats. The frogs being, like you said before, a little bit dumb, to say the least. Witless.

[Pat Wright]

Yes.

[Co-host or Guest]

We have this little dance of the frogs.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sam.

[Co-host or Guest]

And then our friend the squirrel reappears, this squirrel that has been encaged in the child's room. And we know the squirrel escaped and the squirrel is trying to warn the main frog about this little child.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. The child's reputation is beginning to precede him.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. Save yourself, silly.

[Pat Wright]

Don't fall into that cage. He says, you'll have a harder time.

[Co-host or Guest]

Than I did because your fingers are slippery.

[Pat Wright]

And you won't be able to deal.

[Co-host or Guest]

With life as well as I did in the cage.

[Pat Wright]

And I hated it. So we're on the same team nature here.

[Co-host or Guest]

You need to save yourself and get away. And the frog just doesn't quite seem to get it.

[Erica Minor]

No, he doesn't. But isn't it wonderful how Colette gave these kinds of personalities to these animals? It's just brilliant, right? Their dialogue, the things that they say to each other that she imagined are the kinds of conversations that they would have. I think is extraordinary.

[Pat Wright]

It is one of the many charms of this entire piece that in her writing, you can have a great time.

[Co-host or Guest]

Just reading the libretto all on its own.

[Erica Minor]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Soft moi soto et la cage.

[Co-host or Guest]

And the child does what a child would do, which is he tries to justify. Tries to explain Well, I put you in the cage because I wanted to see how clever you were, how nimble you were, how beautiful your eyes were. I just wanted to observe you better.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah. There's no way that he's going to agree about that. No. Making someone suffer. That's no excuse.

[Pat Wright]

Exactly.

[Co-host or Guest]

The squirrel does shoot him down by saying, well, you know what you saw in my fine eyes? You saw the reflection of the other squirrels who are free. The beautiful blue sky, which is free. All these other creatures who are free.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sa.

[Co-host or Guest]

And you saw tears in my eyes. It's rough.

[Erica Minor]

It is. It's terribly, terribly sad.

[Co-host or Guest]

When you're watching it. It doesn't come across as sad. It's sad when you think about it. But it's an interesting way to present this information.

[Erica Minor]

I agree with that. I think it has everything to do with the pacing of this entire piece. There's not one second of dead spot anywhere in this entire piece. It just keeps going. And that's one of the things that makes it so brilliant, because you never stop very long in one emotion. You're always going on to the next. And they keep piling on to the point where at the end, he just can't take it anymore.

[Pat Wright]

Well, here at this moment, we do.

[Co-host or Guest]

See a little bit of self reflection, perhaps, or at least envy, because after this conversation has happened where the squirrel explains, no, no, you weren't doing me a kindness. It was actually quite cruel what you did. We have a lot of the other animals appearing, and they're basically. They're frolicking together. They're enjoying themselves. They're out in nature. After all, we're outdoors now in the garden, and they're having a. A joyous, natural time. And the child observes this and says, they're having so much fun. They love each other and they've forgotten me.

[Erica Minor]

Yeah, they love each other. They're happy. And it makes him even sadder. He calls maman. He calls for his mother, the one who he's disobeyed and rejected. He's beginning to realize that. But I need her, and I miss her. Where is she?

[Co-host or Guest]

It's that essentially that primal cry for wanting comfort.

[Pat Wright]

Maman.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, Mommy. Mama. However we say it. But it is such a. It's an instinctive cry for comfort. And he. And he just says it the one time here. We're making a point of it because we're going to return to the idea of crying out for mama when you want comfort. But poignantly, I read that both Colette, who. Who had a hospital for Wounded soldiers during the First World War. And Ravel, who drove a truck. He was rejected for military service directly as a soldier, but he drove a truck.

[Pat Wright]

And.

[Co-host or Guest]

And oftentimes the cries of the dying soldiers or severely wounded soldiers included crying out for mother, which is so human. So human. And one time, right here, he cries out for mama. But then the animals in the trees see him again because he's not been their focus. But when he cries out, they turn on him and they go, ah, there's that little beast. There's that guy with the stick, the cage, the net, the one who doesn't love anyone and no one loves him.

[Pat Wright]

So they're reinforcing his own view of.

[Co-host or Guest]

How he's perceived by the animals. But they say he must be punished. I've got my talons, my teeth, my clawed wings. And the animals decide to unite and attack him. And it's this great melee on the stage.

[Erica Minor]

It's quite extraordinary. It's quite frightening, as a matter of fact.

[Pat Wright]

Well, right.

[Co-host or Guest]

I mean, it gets back to this point of this child being small and weak.

[Erica Minor]

Well. And held to account for his actions.

[Pat Wright]

That's right.

[Co-host or Guest]

Well, in this confusion on stage, he's more or less flung out of the grouping of animals. And they are still continuing trying to go after him, not seeing that he's been flung out. But then also the squirrel is flung out of the mess of the animals, all in their fight scene. And the squirrel is injured.

[Erica Minor]

And what does the child do that shows that he's beginning to grow up?

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, he's got a ribbon on him. And he takes his ribbon and he wraps it around the paw or the part of the squirrel that he sees is bleeding. He just sees that he needs to do something to take care of this wounded animal.

[Erica Minor]

It's a very poignant moment. And then they observe that and they say, perhaps he's good after all. Perhaps he's wise after all. He's not the nasty child that we thought he was.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, yes. And they also. They see that and they observe it and they see that somehow the child is so sad. They. Well, he's wounded. He's wounded. And we're not seeing blood or anything coming from the child, but they can see his distress. And together again, we're working into this world where we're trying to understand animals being animals. And they say, well, wait, he cried out. He made a sound when he was hurting. What did he say? Maybe. Maybe that's how we can get help for him. And it's this fascinating scene where the animals all Try to repeat the sound. Ma. Ma. Ma. And they. They say, oh, we. We need to get him back to his nest. Right. That's how they speak about the house. And they say, maman, Maman. That's where we'll find help for him. Because they don't feel capable and they don't have the abilities to help him. But they try. Once they've recognized the goodness in him and they see him trying to help one of their own, they try to help him.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. It's a kind of behavior that's so very human, giving this kind of humanity to animals, which is probably, if we could understand what they say, exactly what they're all about. Colette had a deep interest in animals, and her interest in animals was something that she heightened in Ravel, in writing about all these creatures. So that's definitely a big part of what came together as this opera.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sa.

[Co-host or Guest]

It's just beautiful. And I feel like sometimes it's difficult for whoever's staging the opera to get across all of that's written in the libretto because a lot of it is. It's subtle. It's very subtle. And I didn't see all the things on stage when I was watching this that I read in the libretto. But she explains in the libretto that after there's all this commotion outside and they're trying to get the attention of Maman, a light appears in the window. And we're coming to the end of this story. And the animals will do exactly what you said. Sing. He's good, the child he's wise he dressed the wound and stopped it from bleeding he is good, he is wise he is so kind and our last.

[Erica Minor]

Word of the opera, it's Marmal. So he's come full circle after being so unkind to her in the beginning. Now it's taken all of this. This experience of his, which has been so traumatic, to make him realize that really, he owes everything to her. And what he wants most in the world is his mother's love. And that's what he calls for at the end. So everything comes full circle, and it's just so beautiful. It always makes me cry.

[Co-host or Guest]

It is beautiful because it's so. It would be so easy to simply see this as a naughty child. But I come back to the idea that it's really hard to be little. It's really hard to be a child to navigate the world. You don't have any power. You get frustrated. You don't know what to do with the frustrations. And, yeah, he's misbehaved. Pretty badly. He's been pretty awful. But there's always a chance for redemption.

[Erica Minor]

Yes. And he shows that he's willing to redeem himself. And everything that you're describing to me, if I were able to speak with Ravel, is exactly what he would say because of his deep love for children and his understanding for children and his understanding that children are so underestimated and badly understood, that this child, yes, it's part of being a child. You misbehave, but every child has something that will redeem them. And that's what happens with this child. So in the end, there's so much to love about this child and about all children. I think that's part of what Ravel was trying to say.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, I agree 100%. And that's part of the reason why we don't give a name to the child. We don't give a name to the mother because that is the child.

[Pat Wright]

The mother.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, the mother does.

[Pat Wright]

I mean, she doesn't hold a grudge.

[Co-host or Guest]

She knows he's misbehaving. She's an adult. She understands some of these things. And he's coming to understand as well.

[Erica Minor]

And she's also a mother. And that's what mothers do. We understand that this love that we have for our children is unconditional. No matter what they do, they're still our child.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, Erika, thank you so much for joining me today on Opera for Everyone. To talk about Ravel and appreciate him here in 2025, this 150th anniversary of his birth and to talk about this lovely, lovely opera that Ravel wrote to the libretto by Colette l' enfant et les Ortelges. And I'm just so thankful. Everyone visit erikaminer.com, read the Julia Kogan Opera mysteries series and check out the other Opera for Everyone said Erica has.

[Pat Wright]

Done with me where we talk about those books.

[Erica Minor]

Well, Pat, I just have to say that it's always such a divine pleasure to work with you, but this time I'm grateful to you because giving me an opportunity to revisit this piece which I so adore and which has been part of my own growing up since I was very young. And it just is bringing me back to all these wonderful feelings that I have about the piece, about the music and about this composer whose anniversary we're celebrating this year of 2025.

[Co-host or Guest]

Thank you, Erica.

[Erica Minor]

Thank you.

[Audio Clip or Additional Voice]

Sham Sa.

[Pat Wright]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Opera for Everyone. Opera for Everyone airs every Sunday morning from 9 to 11am Mountain Time on 89.1 Khol in Jackson, Wyoming. If you've missed any of today's show, you can find this episode and many others on the Opera for Everyone podcast. And while you're there, please subscribe, rate and comment. By doing this, you'll be helping others to find us.

[Co-host or Guest]

I know opera can be unfamiliar and challenging, but everyone loves a good story.

[Pat Wright]

And a story set to music is even better.

[Co-host or Guest]

That's why the mission of this show is to make opera enjoyable for everyone.

[Pat Wright]

Opera for Everyone.