Loading summary
Transcript309 lines
- [00:00]
A
Sam. Welcome to another edition of Opera for Everyone. I am your host, Pat Wright, and I am thrilled to introduce to you all a brand new recording partner with me, welcome please, Maria Coulter.
- [00:56]
B
Well, thank you, Pat, for having me today. I'm so looking forward to chatting with you about this just amazing opera.
- [01:02]
A
I am so pleased Maria recommended this. When I first met with her, she lives here in Jackson Hole, but she's also a classically trained opera singer. And you have such a good view on this. You played one of the roles in this show, the Threepenny Opera. I did.
- [01:21]
B
I played Lucy Brown, which I'm so excited to really deep dive into her character.
- [01:26]
A
I've had my eye on this show for quite some time, but it's a complicated show, so I'm thrilled, thrilled to have someone here who's been part of a production of Threepenny Opera. Before we go any further, let me say a little bit more about Maria. Maria began listening to opera at a very young age and trained and earned a degree in vocal performance from Augustana College in Rock Island, Illinois. It was 2022 when you played this role of Lucy.
- [01:54]
B
Yes, I was a junior in college during that time.
- [01:57]
A
I. It's fun to have somebody of that age playing that role too. I imagine it was.
- [02:02]
B
And I actually, it was my first time playing a character like Lucy. I kind of always played more of like the goody two shoes, more like princess like figures protagonist.
- [02:13]
A
That's not Lucy.
- [02:14]
B
She's so sultry. I really had to dig into a different side of myself and really get down to her motivations. And I have to say it's actually my favorite part I've ever played to this day, out of every character.
- [02:27]
A
Your favorite?
- [02:28]
B
My favorite.
- [02:29]
A
Well, maybe that's why you suggested this moment when I said we should record something together. Well, one other thing I'd like to say is that you are a wonderful member of the community here in Jackson Hole. You help. Oh, we are so lucky to have you. You're a music leader in your church, singing there. And you've also been known, I hear, to sing up at Jackson Lake Lodge.
- [02:52]
B
Yes, yes. I actually took a break from singing classically for about two years since I had first moved out here and graduated from college. And just with people kind of getting to know me in the community, seeing me at Grand Teton Music Festival performances, little word kind of got around that I was classically trained like you said. And so Rebecca Ryan, who's just around the corner from me in the neighborhood, asked me to do a little performance at our neighborhood end of the year party with her. And when I started rehearsing with her, she was like, you've got to perform with me at the Jackson Lake Lodge. And so she's another local treasure. She's another local treasure for sure. And so I sang O Mio Babino Caro there from Johnny Skiki. Yes. And then Climb Every Mountain. That was the first one that I had sang. So that was really special in. It really put me back into that space and it was really exciting to explore that part of my voice again. But maybe you'll see more of me doing that in the future. But that was kind of my first time getting back into the game.
- [03:57]
A
That's magnificent. It's a wonderful community. And you mentioned Grand Teton Music Festival and a shout out to them as well.
- [04:03]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [04:05]
A
Anyone who's thinking maybe you'd like to visit, come in the summer when that's on, or unless you were a skier, in which case come in the winter to Jackson Hole.
- [04:12]
B
They do have some great winter performances or they have their opera and HD too, which is.
- [04:18]
A
Yes. They sponsor the Met HD performances at our center for the Art. We don't have the big city performances, but we do have a lot of talented people around.
- [04:27]
B
We do. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely.
- [04:29]
A
Okay. Three Penny Opera. It's a German language opera originally. Although it has been done quite a lot in English in this country.
- [04:37]
B
It has, actually. When I was casted as the part of Lucy Brown, we were doing the show completely in English, but she had asked me, oh, you have a little bit of German background. So actually my family is from Germany. I studied German for four years in high school, did a little bit here at Augustana College, but then also had to study it extensively for learning several different languages. To sing opera.
- [05:04]
A
Yes.
- [05:05]
B
And so I literally was just walking around campus and I ran into her and she said, you can speak German, right?
- [05:12]
A
Her being your director?
- [05:13]
B
My director, Shelley Cooper, yes. And when she had asked me that, the first thing, whenever somebody asked me if I could speak German, I kind of go into this space of fear, like, are they going to start speaking German with me? And I'll have to kind of be put on this spot. And so I was tentatively like, yes. And so then she said, well, I think it would be really, really cool to have you sing the original aria that Lucy sings from the original production and it's all in German. Would that be something that you would be up for? And automatically I said, absolutely. And then what was challenging, too, about this aria, which we'll get into later is that there's also. It's an act too, is that I also had to do several different speaking parts in German throughout. So that was such an honor to have the only piece in a modern day production that was from the original soundtrack.
- [06:09]
A
So that's interesting and wonderful that your director saw that you had the ability to do that because there have been so many different translation versions of this entire opera. And the song, in case anyone didn't know, the very famous song Mack the Knife comes from this. From this work.
- [06:30]
B
Yes.
- [06:31]
A
We have not yet introduced our composer and author, progrettist, poet.
- [06:38]
B
It was Kurt Weill and Bertl Brecht who composed this musical together. Brecht was the librettist and Weyl the composer. And what Brecht really wanted to try to achieve with us listening and viewing this opera was not just getting us to feel, but think, really think critically about what's being produced on the stage, which we will definitely get into. And how he does that each of these works.
- [07:06]
A
Yeah, this is a show that breaks the mold intentionally. As I understand it. It started with Brecht being very interested in the material with a revival that took place in London of the Beggar's opera, which was 200 years old. 200 years between the 1728 premiere of the Beggars Opera. John Gay was the author, was the poet there, and Christoph Pepusch was the composer. But there was a revival in 1920 that Brecht saw and was really interested in the material. And when another fellow was opening up a new theater in Berlin, he's like, can you help me with a piece? And Brecht says, sure, I'll update the Beggar's Opera. Well, it was a lot more than an update.
- [07:58]
B
Oh, totally, totally. And then they use a lot of that blend of jazz and classical and cabaret feel to really make it feel like we're in a nightclub in Berlin.
- [08:13]
A
Well, and since you've mentioned a nightclub in Berlin and even use the word cabaret, we should acknowledge up front if some of this music reminds you of what you heard when you've seen a production, whether on stage or even the film Cabaret. There's a similarity of sound music sounds like that potentially familiar Cabaret, but the causality goes the other direction.
- [08:39]
B
Right.
- [08:40]
A
It's a Kander and Ebb musical. The book was by Joe Masteroff, but John Kander wrote the music for that show and Fred Ebb wrote the lyrics. But as they were creating it, Kander was told, make it sound like Kurt Weill, make it sound like the music in Threepenny Opera, because after all, cabaret is set during those interwar years, 1929 to 1930, in Berlin. And as we've just mentioned, it was 1928 when this threepenny Opera premieres. So it's very intentional that Cabaret sounds like Threepenny Opera, even though to your ears, certainly was to mine initially, it seems like this sounds like cabaret.
- [09:28]
B
Yes.
- [09:30]
A
And while we're giving a little bit of this context, let's be sure that we recognize that the twenties in Berlin were a very singular and creative time for the arts. The 20s being the interwar years, end of World War I. World War II has not yet started. As time goes BY in the 20s, we see the rise of the forces that are going to help lead to World War II. But the 20s themselves in Berlin, so many artists, so many musicians, playwrights, authors, all kinds of people trying experimental things, and also people suffering the aftermath of a defeated country from the First World War.
- [10:15]
B
Yeah. Just to go back to how you were saying, we're about to see an opera for beggars. Yeah, that totally translates that. And it shows like this, lavish cabarets, but also this avant garde art that's being produced very much like this juxtaposition and what the music is saying, but also what the lyrics are saying.
- [10:36]
A
Yes, it's very interesting. It is very interesting. And this is one of those collaborations where we don't want to just say the name of the composer, Kurt Weill, who deserves all kinds of credit for this, but the Bertholdt Brecht contribution to this feels almost not the same thing, but like a Gilbert and Sullivan situation where it seems wrong to mention one without the other.
- [10:58]
B
Right.
- [10:59]
A
Of course, Brecht did have an assistant, a woman, Elizabeth Hauptman, and she is often forgotten, but she was the first one who translated it from the English, because, of course, it originated in English into German for Brecht to be able to work with. So shout out to Elizabeth Huffman. Yes, thank you for that. 1928 was when this show premieres in Berlin.
- [11:24]
B
Yes.
- [11:25]
A
And it was quite successful. And it moves around Europe and it becomes the defining work of musical art for the twenties. Many observers will say so in Brechtian.
- [11:39]
B
Theater, they use something called justice, and it's this performance style where we use these devices and present the characters as archetypes, and it makes it very clear that they're playing an actor or a character to kind of separate them from the audience.
- [11:56]
A
Justice. Like J U S T I C Justice.
- [11:59]
B
Yes.
- [12:00]
A
Interesting, because I've Read about the concept of the distancing or the fact that Brecht didn't want you to lose yourself in the story. He wanted you to be always conscious that these were actors performing roles.
- [12:14]
B
Yes, exactly. And we're going to see that a lot with the satire that's placed all throughout the show to the very end and after the ending to really get us to think, not just feel. And so I felt like with my character Lucy, I really tried to play into that satire effect and really play off our other characters on stage. And you're gonna hear a little bit of that too, and how these actors are expressing themselves through the music.
- [12:43]
A
Well, we will certainly talk about that as we hear different pieces going along. But let's get to, I think, the touchstone for a lot of people in this show, which is that very famous song, Mack the Knife. Because it is after our overture, it is our introduction, it is the first thing we hear. And interestingly, I'm not surprisingly or not unusually, it's the last thing that's written. Yeah. Apparently the man who was performing Mack the Knife said he needed more. He was quite a prominent actor in his day and he said he needed more for his character. And what they ended up doing was writing this introduction for him. But it very much sets the scene.
- [13:27]
B
It really does. It's a really good symbol of this dual nature behind this character. A polished gentleman on the outside, but just this cold hearted criminal on the inside. And this, this song, it's very catchy. It's very polished on the outside with the way that it's written and how we listen to it. But then the lyrics are very conniving. And so I think it not only shows that through its character, but also how the song, we still listen to it today, we still find ourselves kind.
- [13:58]
A
Of, you know, humming it happily.
- [14:00]
B
Exactly. But then if we really pay attention to the lyrics, how much we realize crime and business go hand in hand. And they really set the scene for that in this piece.
- [14:10]
A
So true. I was thinking when you said conniving, I'm like, well, that is a very gentle term for what's going on here. Yes, he's a violent character. Our, I mean, I guess our main character, Mac Heath, Mack the Knife, Mackie Messer, he is just a violent criminal. And we should say if you're, if you're not familiar with this story at all, this is depicting a lot of people, a lot of people who have challenges of poverty and there's a lot of crime and a lot of violence. Not on the Stage, but referred to often, people who would not be considered the typical subjects of opera. This is no elevated opera of gods and goddesses or kings and queens. This is people who are suffering from poverty. And that, through line, carries through the entire story of Threepenny Opera. It's in its DNA from the Beggar's Opera. And they will even tell us right in the beginning. They're speaking throughout this show as narration, but most of what you're enjoying as an audience member is the song. But sometimes you find yourself enjoying something that's quite horrific.
- [15:22]
B
Exactly. And I feel like that was Brecht's style as well, kind of done in this poor theater aesthetic and still trying to get the audience outside of what was really going on on stage. And it's not surprising that it done so well, but it also is kind of surprising since it's something so different than what opera usually follows is a different aesthetic.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah. Well, I think might be fun, if you don't mind, just to play a little bit of one of the familiar renditions of Mack the Knife. Good old Louis Armstrong. And speaking of jazz. And there is jazz infused as an influence throughout this entire show, cabaret style and all that. But Louis Armstrong, one of our foundational figures in jazz, has a huge hit with his rendition of this number. Yeah, let's listen to it and then we'll hear how different it is in the opera.
- [16:17]
B
Okay.
- [16:18]
C
Old the shark has pretty teeth deer and he shows them a pearly white Just a jack knife has Mackie deer and he keeps it out of sight when the shark bites with his teeth, dear Scarlet billows start spraying Fancy gloves, though where's my heat, dear? So there's not a trace of red on the sidewalk Sunday morning Even lies a body oozing light Someone sneaking around the corner Is there someone magnified From a tugboat by the river.
- [17:28]
B
I see.
- [17:29]
C
My bags drooping down yes, the cements just for the weight deal Bet you Mac he's back in town Look. A year Louis Miller disappeared, dear after drawing out his case and my heat spins like a sailor did our boy do something fresh Suki Tawdry, Jenny Diver, Lottie Lanyard Sweet Lucy Brown all the lions on the right ears now that Mackie back in town Take it, Satch.
- [18:40]
A
Ah, Louis Armstrong. Isn't he just the best?
- [18:43]
B
He is the best.
- [18:45]
A
And it's fun to have that in our head, not just as a point of contrast to what we're going to hear from Threepenny Opera, but also because we know there's jazz influence throughout Weill's musical writing, which is important. Jazz was developing. The 20s were a busy time for that. There's a lot of international crossover. But I want to just take a moment to talk about the translations. I mentioned earlier that there have been multiple. Multiple translations. And the words that. Mostly there's a little improvisation, of course, but mostly the words that Armstrong is using there come from Mark Blitzstein's translation. And from what I have read, his translation is beloved not for its faithfulness to the German. It's not the most accurate translation in that way, but for the singability, the versification, and also the feeling it gives, the poetic nature of what it's trying to convey. The shark with his pretty teeth and that they're pearly white. Because we know Matt. One of his great advantages with the women, and he is very good with the women, is that he is such a polished fellow. He looks so good. He carries himself as someone who is worth something. But then he says, just a jackknife has Mac Heath and he keeps it out of sight. And I mean, that's. That's it. He's brutal, he's dangerous, but there's a polish, a sheen over it all. And there are other translators that people have used throughout the years. There's a new one by John Willette in 1970. There was Eric Bentley in 1964. And the libretto that you and I are going off of, which accompanies our cd. We'll give the credits at the beginning of the second half, as usual. But that translator is Guy Stern. So this is such a rich and multi layered piece of art that new people want to take a crack at the translation. I mean, reminds me of the Odyssey. Everyone wants to try a new translation of a really important work.
- [20:57]
B
Yeah. Well, anytime I feel like I go back and revisit a piece of work, whether that be from book that I'm reading, whether that be the Bible or anything, it really can be a living document. And I felt like while going through this libretto, especially looking at the German and the English translation right next to each other, I did this opera mostly all in English, except for the aria that I did. And it really made me grow more and more frustrated with what each character was doing, which I know was Brech's whole goal. But I think when I was actually doing the opera, I was more focused on what are my characters motivations, what are my other characters motivations with me, how can I make this funny? How can I make this entertaining? How can I get the audience to think where now I felt like I was really looking through it at a totally different lens, and I think the translation totally has to do something with that. And I kept just thinking, oh, wow, does this. Does this speak to what's going on in today's world? Which I think we can both agree? Yeah, it does to a certain extent.
- [22:09]
A
Yeah. It's because what Brecht wants us to do is take a look at what are the conditions that make people behave badly towards one another. What are those conditions? And Hay has very strong opinions on that. Well, this was a confusing and difficult opera, not just for the audience, but for some of the performers as well.
- [22:34]
B
Yes. So apparently the actor playing Mac Heath spent a lot of time in his dressing room, and he said, he's alone and miserable. This is the first time in my life that I don't know what I'm doing. He said to Vile's sympathetic friend, they're all maniacs. I have no idea what the whole thing is about. All I know is that this is a disaster.
- [22:54]
A
Right. So it's interesting. It was so unusual and. And these people were so unappeal. These characters were not written in any way to be appealing or sympathetic, which is fascinating. That seems to go against one of the basic rules of drama, that there's a character you're rooting for or that you identify with. Not in this opera. They're all dreadful.
- [23:19]
B
They're all dreadful. And I kept wanting the whole time, even after revisiting, oh, I want to root for this person, or, oh, should I root for this person? And it's kind of like, oh, maybe there's a lot of characters that we all root for, but there's this particular one where each person has a backstory that we particularly don't agree with and don't like.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah. I do understand why that singer was perplexed and thought the whole thing was a disaster, because it's not like any of the other shows he's been in, and he's a successful actor in Berlin at this time. In fact, one of the interesting things about this show is that the performers of the original version of this were. Some were actors, some were cabaret singers, people from different elements of the performing arts. And Weil and Brecht didn't really want classically trained opera singers for this is what they said. They wanted more actors who could sing a little bit. And some of the singing is more like speaking singing.
- [24:19]
B
Yes.
- [24:19]
A
Yeah. It's an interesting mix of different styles, but it will not sound like Puccini to you.
- [24:27]
B
No. And I think it's really interesting what they decide which lines they're going to speak versus that they're going to sing as well, to pull us in and out of those moments.
- [24:37]
A
Right? And we are constantly kept aware of it being a show because throughout the show you have the interjection of this street singer, the one who sings Mack the Knife. It's not Mack the Knife himself who's singing it, it's a commentator on this whole situation. And he will interject throughout the show maybe some commentary or maybe just an introduction of a song by telling you this is the title of the next song you're about to hear that pulls you out of the dramatic action, but you never have a chance to get fully into it. Anyway, this street singer, this ballad singer is going to sing about Mack the Knife a little bit differently from the way Louis Armstrong interprets it. Let's hear a little bit closer is all I can say to the original method of conveying this song. Our recording is made in 1958. Well, that was in German. And for those of you who speak German, you will find it a whole lot more shocking for those of us who are just listening to the tune, because it's a cheerful little tune. It's a ballad, after all. The Beggars Opera was a ballad opera. That was part of what Brecht and Vile were working with. But we've set the scene now. We know about this character, Mac Heath, Mack the Knife. But we're gonna be introduced to another character now. Yes.
- [29:00]
B
Mr. Peachum, master of beggars.
- [29:03]
A
What does that mean, Master of beggars.
- [29:05]
B
So Mr. Peachum, he's a master of beggars, which means he actually dresses people up out onto the streets of London to beg and then benefits from their profits that they receive from innocent bystanders on the streets. And so he's actually benefiting from the poor. And so that's what makes him the master of beggars.
- [29:28]
A
He's the master. Yes. And also it's interesting because everything I've read says he not only gives them the rattiest, most pitiful looking clothes, he'll also have little devices to make them look like they're maimed when maybe they aren't. All things to incite pity among the people who have money so that they will give it to these beggars who then have to share their profits. Honestly, not coincidentally, it sounds a little bit like he's a pimp to a prostitute, because that's going to come up later in the story as well. I told you this is the world we are living in, people trying to get by. And none of these people is well off. It's just that Mr. Peachum is at the top of a hierarchy. He's a little bit better off than the people who he benefits from. Same thing with Mack the Knife. He's the leader of a street gang, a violent street gang. But this Mr. Peachum, how does he introduce himself?
- [30:24]
B
Well, he. He tries to introduce himself by being this really upstanding, moral Christian who helps the poor, but actually in return, he's profiting from the poor.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah. And the music here will have a church sound to it.
- [30:40]
B
Yes. Well, he's constantly quoting scripture and moral platitudes, yet uses them to justify his own corruptiveness. So I think that's what they try to achieve here in this hymn. That kind of the same thing with.
- [30:55]
A
Those were air quotes for those of.
- [30:56]
B
You who couldn't marry his hands using a him. Kind of like how the Ballad of Mack the Knife, there's this duality of it sounds like a catchy tune, but there's so much ironic tone behind it. And so with this hymn, and there's a lot of people out there who talk about their Christian upstanding moral values, but then use those in order to get ahead or to accomplish what they need.
- [31:24]
A
Yeah, it is. Here he is saying, get up, you rotten Christian, and begin your sinful life. And then he goes on to describe some of this, the sins that they might commit. One of the interesting things I read about this is that at one point later on when this was very successful, someone interviewing Brecht asked him what was his greatest influence in writing this? And you might think, oh, the Beggars Opera, of course. And Brecht says, no, no, it was the Bible, really. Very interesting. So interesting because there's too much that we will not even get to in this conversation today. But there are morsels speckled throughout this libretto, throughout the text that are just little snippets of quotes from well known stories in the Bible.
- [32:11]
B
Yes.
- [32:12]
A
That you can pick up on for those people who are more familiar. Primarily New Testament, but not entirely a New Testament and Old Testament, as Christians would say. So let's hear a little bit of this hymn that Mr. Peachum sings to start his day. There. Her virtus tirudans gaven fair calf thine.
- [32:58]
C
And brooder to shift.
- [33:02]
A
Fair shacher thine eyewipe to wish there her God firdishes their lufthans. Well, there's a Mr. Peachum. There's also a Mrs. Peachum. And the next piece will have the two of them interacting with each other. Not like the idealized married couple, but they've got a working relationship, the two of them. But we could also just mention now that they do have a daughter who figures prominently in the show.
- [33:43]
B
Yes, Polly Peachum.
- [33:44]
A
Polly Peachum. But right now we just see Mr. And Mrs. Peachum. And here is one place where you get a tiny little snippet, like I was referring to, of a biblical kind of phrasing where she says, if you go somewhere, I will go there, too.
- [34:03]
B
From the story of Ruth.
- [34:04]
A
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's not a husband and wife in that case, of course, but it's interesting. It's not big, and it makes perfect sense in a married couple conversation. But I just thought I'd mention that. Let's get a little sense of how these Two sing together. Mr. And Mrs. Peachum. While we've been introduced to Matt Keith, we haven't heard from him yet. Mr. Peachum has introduced himself. Mrs. Peachum has introduced herself. But now we quickly move into what in a traditional musical would end the first act. Probably.
- [36:20]
B
Probably. Now we have Polly Peachum getting married to Matt Keith, which I'm sure her parents have some opinions on, knowing his criminal record.
- [36:32]
A
Yeah, they do have thoughts about that. And he is much worse because he's actually actively hurting people, as opposed to the beggars who are just deceiving people.
- [36:45]
B
Right. But it definitely contrasts the ideals of marriage in this song. They're talking about how Polly and Mackeith have gotten married and we're cheering them on. But it's not quite an ideal marriage. Very much a contrast to that. A contrast against love, beauty and lifetime happiness. But it is this harsh economic reality of the lower class and what they're experiencing.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah. There's a lot of questions about how this all came about. We don't see any of their courtship. We don't see any of what attracted one to the other. We don't even know if there is true attraction. Although we'll hear a little bit more about that later. But it's interesting because here it's a choral piece. This is where we hear the chorus.
- [37:37]
B
Yes. And I feel like the chorus coming in here, they're kind of trying to convey, well, it's a good thing that they're poor and humble, otherwise they wouldn't be able to bear their own marriage.
- [38:34]
A
After the wedding song that we've just heard, you might expect to see a scene between the happy couple, Matt Keith and Paulie. But no, that's not what we get next.
- [38:45]
B
No. We directly go into being introduced to Tiger Brown and the complexity of their relationship.
- [38:52]
A
Matt Keith and Tiger Brown.
- [38:53]
B
Tiger Brown.
- [38:54]
A
Tiger Brown being Lucy Brown's father, but.
- [38:57]
B
Also the Chief of police.
- [38:59]
A
Yes. Here we haven't met Lucy yet, but he's the chief of. But I know we're focused on Lucy for good reason. He's the chief of police, Chief Brown and a good friend of Mac Heath. That right there should raise an eyebrow. This master criminal and this chief of police.
- [39:17]
B
Yes. Well, they met in the army, so that's how we know that the relationship formed. But there's actually this mutual agreement between Mac Heath and Tiger Brown that Mac Heath continues to do all of his criminal activities without being arrested.
- [39:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Corruption everywhere. This is. I mean, we're getting the sense that this entire world, of all the people we meet in this opera, there's lying, there's cheating, there's stealing, there's murder. Just the whole list of sins seems to be there. But this corruption is absolutely key. And that's part of how Mackeith is as successful as he is. He pays off the police officer based on their friendship, and they all carry on their merry way.
- [40:05]
B
The canon song really shows the irony behind how Tiger Brown is the chief police, but also Mackie's camaraderie.
- [40:15]
A
President Brown, Den Kanonen song. Mackenzie feel like the Rowski a pit stake.
- [42:04]
B
Ten forever.
- [42:29]
A
That was the canon song between Mackie Heath and the Chief of police, Tiger Brown, in the Threepenny Opera by Kurt Weil and Berthold Brecht. I'm here with Maria Coulter, a local singer, and I'm so glad that you suggested this work of art, this song, this canon song. It's interesting because there's the camaraderie between the two former soldiers, and they're speaking in that rough sort of way that soldiers might about the terrible things they've been through. I mean, it's a reminder. It's not just the grinding poverty of the people being depicted here. It's also that they've all been traumatized in a way, through the things that they've been through, which makes perfect sense in the 1920s.
- [43:14]
B
I feel like that's how a lot of really good friendships start, is what you've gone through together.
- [43:19]
A
Yeah.
- [43:20]
B
And that's definitely evident through Tiger Brown and Matt Keith's relationship. But then what comes out on the other side is, what's in it for me? Or, like, what's in it for you?
- [43:30]
A
Yeah.
- [43:30]
B
So now they have Kind of like a little bit of a business relationship. Post stormy life.
- [43:36]
A
Yeah. It's mutually beneficial for the two of them. Okay, well, now we're gonna get our love song between the two, the newly married couple. Yes.
- [43:44]
B
It's about time. This, I feel like, is just so, so lovey dovey, over the top, really satirical. But I have to mention something I didn't think about until you brought it up in the Instead of song, Pauli actually says and reiterates here, wherever you go, I will go too.
- [44:06]
A
Right. It is a callback to what we heard between the Peachums. And it kind of slips by very quickly with the Peachums, but it's a little more. It's a little more pronounced here in this version, this love song, which is an interesting love song in that it starts out with the two characters speaking to each other and then they transition into singing.
- [44:28]
B
Yes. I think it's cool too, how they talk about, do you see the moon over Soho? And we're going to see them continue to reference that throughout the whole show. The same moon that I'm looking at is the same moon that you're actually looking at. And then they kind of talk about when they both sing together that they didn't know where the bridal dress came from. There was no registrar. And it kind of conflicts this idea of what really matters in a marriage or what do we idealize in a marriage.
- [45:03]
A
Yeah. It's not traditional in any way whatsoever. And you're mentioning of Soho, by the way. Just. I don't think we've said this yet. This is all set in London.
- [45:12]
B
Yes.
- [45:13]
A
Just as The Beggars Opera 200 years early initially was set in London, this remains set in London. That's why you get a character named Makif and Polly and all these very English sounding names.
- [45:25]
B
Yes.
- [46:12]
C
Nothing I dunk like Shun won't keep sky and tell him how. We know la.
- [47:04]
A
A love song between our newly married couple will quickly move from that scene into Polly, the bride herself. And she has quite a long piece here.
- [47:16]
B
She does the song of no and yes.
- [47:19]
A
What's she saying no and yes to?
- [47:21]
B
I think she's mocking the social expectation that women should always say no. But now she's saying yes because the right man came along. So I think that's what she's saying yes and no too.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah. She goes on and on about a guy who's nice and who uses really good manners. Well, you must be a lady then. Or expected to have a certain role as a woman and say, no, no, no, but then there's this. Well, dare we say it, A rake. A rake. I'm laughing because not that long ago I did the Rake's Progress. That was in the mid-50s that opera came out. I did that with Kathleen. That was episode 135 on Opera for everyone. And that's significantly later than this, which premiered in 1928. But nevertheless, it is a little bit of a focus on this badly behaved person. We're not going to do a comparison A to B because they're so different from each other. And there are good characters in the Rake's Progress here, not so much, but he is a rake. And she is very explicit in saying, he's the one I was attracted to and he's the one I didn't say no to because he was not a proper gentleman. He did not behave well. But to him I said yes.
- [48:41]
B
Yes. Well, she's very pragmatic and she's trying to let us know that she is the one that's trying to take power in this by saying, I know what I'm doing. I chose this. I know what he's like. And I feel like that's something that Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht are trying to get us to realize, is that this woman can make a decision about who she wants. She knows what she's doing. And in this piece, Kurt Weill starts out with the melody very sweet and eluding and kind of this like womanly facade. But then it evolves into kind of like this unexpected rhythm with dissonances and something darker kind of brewing beneath the surface. And I really think that's Polly just proclaiming that power, taking that power that she chose to be with this criminal. She knew what she was getting into.
- [49:32]
A
Yeah. I mean, she's enough connected to that world as the daughter of Mr. And Mrs. Peachum that she. She's going into it with her eyes wide open, but she's letting us know that as well.
- [49:44]
B
Der Erste Der Kam wein Mann auskent Der WA.
- [51:06]
A
Nine. Well, Polly knows what she's gotten herself into, or at least that's what she's telling us. And we're coming up to the end of the first act. This is a three act opera and we're going to end with the Peachum family.
- [53:04]
B
Yes. Telling their daughter she shouldn't marry out of love. And so they do this by pointing it out in this song.
- [53:12]
A
That's a fascinating thing for the parents to say. First of all, the marriage has taken place, although there's not Necessarily a clear sense of linear time and action in this entire show. But they're saying it doesn't make any sense.
- [53:26]
B
They think the key to happiness is being more realistic, going after money. What's going to help her economically, what's going to protect her.
- [53:36]
A
Exactly. And. And they get down to real basics here in saying if you have money, you will have food, and that is the first basis of what you need to be happy.
- [53:48]
B
Yeah. They're saying love doesn't pay the bills.
- [53:50]
A
Love doesn't put food on the table. And Mr. Peachum here is holding his Bible again.
- [53:56]
B
Yes, well, it's kind of like a mock sermon almost every time that he sings is what I would call it. But the lyrics undercut that tone. He's. He's definitely reinforcing himself as a moral hypocrite throughout this song. I mean, he speaks as if he's wise and philosophical, but he's lamenting human greed and folly, yet he profits from other people's misery. He's telling Pauli, marry for money so that you can have food on the table. Yet the way that he's going about his own life is not necessarily what he's preaching to Pauli. It's very confusing. And it's definitely Brecht's style of pulling the audience into the emotion and getting them to critically think about what he's really saying here.
- [54:48]
A
Yeah, Polly and Mrs. Peachum and also Mr. Peachum will say, the world is poor and man is bad. I mean, it's a real downer of a message here in this song. There's nothing to anything. Everything is junk. That's how it's going to end this entire act, by just saying, it's all terrible. It's all junk. There's nothing for us. People are terrible. It's just this dark, dark world that they live in. And they're just trying to do their best in the circumstances. And that is part of what Brecht is all about. He is so dismayed by the world he sees around him. Brecht really has a social vision of needing to change the world so much. After all, he's seen so much suffering. I mean, we haven't said it explicitly yet, but let's say it now. Brecht has a very anti capitalist message that he's giving in his works and in this in particular. Well, let's hear a little bit of this last piece from Act 1 of Threepenny Opera, Kurdweil, Berthold Brecht, Where I had Danish, then I must become a doctor. Help me, sir. They think so. When all a good sin is sign. Reich nicht fern. Where a certain. You're listening to Opera for Everyone, a radio show and podcast that embraces drama and story through love of music. Opera for Everyone airs Sundays from 9 to 11am Mountain Time on 89.1 Khol, Jackson, Wyoming's only community radio station. If you'd like to hear more conversations about opera, please join us on the Opera for Everyone podcast. And if you subscribe and rate us, you'll be helping with our mission to bring opera to everyone by helping others find this show. Stay with us. The second half of today's show is coming right up. Welcome back to the second half of Opera for Everyone. I'm your host, Pat Wright, and I am happy to welcome back Maria Coulter. Welcome back, Maria.
- [58:59]
B
Thank you, Pat.
- [59:00]
A
Well, Maria is a classically trained vocalist, a local here in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And Maria also played the role of Lucy in Threepenny opera in the 2022 production by Augustana College.
- [59:14]
B
Yes.
- [59:15]
A
Oh, thank you so much for suggesting this show. There's just so much to it. We are only scratching the surface. There's so much written about this, books, articles, commentary of all sorts. And it's a lot going on with these two artists, Brecht and Kurt Weil, but also a lot going on politically behind the scenes and social messages that they were concerned about that they added into this work or was really the reason they did this work.
- [59:48]
B
Yeah.
- [59:49]
A
Okay, before we jump into the opera helmet quiz, that's where we recap everything that's gone on so far. I'd like to just take a moment and make sure we thank the people involved in creating the CD that we're listening to. This is a recording that was made in 1959 with the orchestra of Radio Free Berlin. That's how, you know, it's done during the Cold War period. Radio Free Berlin. And the conductor was Wilhelm Bruckner Rugerberg, and production supervision was by Lottelena. We've mentioned her before. She was the one who played Jenny in the original. She's also the one who sings Jenny in this production, but she's the widow at 1958 because Kurt Weill died in 1950. She was married to Kurt Weill. Actually, she married him twice, but we won't go into all of those details. So she's really there as a source for these performers also to understand a lot about what the intention were in the original production. Oh, and I'll also mention once again that this translation that we are looking at and sometimes quoting is by Guy Stern, this translation of the German libretto. And I'm going to ask you, please, Maria, to tell us about the singers that we're listening to.
- [61:08]
B
Yes. So the Morotaten Sanger, the ballad singer, was done by Wolfgang Nuss, Herr Peacham, Billy Trank, Tribetisch, Frau Peacham, Trude Hesterberg, Mackeith, Eric Schello, Polly Peacham, Johanna von Coxjen, Jenny Lothalinja, Tiger Brown, Wolfgang Grunnert, Lucy Inge Wolfberg.
- [61:35]
A
Thank you everyone for this beautiful music that we're listening to in this very, very interesting opera. Well, a tradition on opera for everyone is the opera helmet quiz. Are you ready?
- [61:47]
B
I am ready.
- [61:48]
A
Tell us what's happened so far in our story.
- [61:51]
B
So so far. We've been introduced to Mac Heath, who is a extremely big criminal. And he has married Polly Peachum, the daughter of Mr. Peachum, master of beggars. And we've also been introduced to Tiger Brown, the chief of police, who he has a good relationship with Ma, where he will not get arrested while he continues his crimes. And so now Mackeith and Paulie have been married and now we're about to see that Mackie has to suddenly flee from Paulie.
- [62:27]
A
Yeah, we don't get the domestic bliss portion of their relationship, if that ever even existed. Right, right here in the beginning of Act 2, we are told by this ballad singer, who is also our narrator, that Mackeith has to flee. And he says goodbye to Polly. It's not long, it's not too tender. He does ask for a kiss, but there she is, she's gone. And she. She's going to sing farewell. Not to him, to us. She's going to say he's never going to return.
- [63:01]
B
Yes, I think that's interesting how she. When she says he's never going to return, that she knows she's never going to see him again.
- [63:09]
A
Yeah, there's also a sweet bit of instrumental music here. I mean, it's not. It's not trying to tear your heart out again. In some operas, if one member of a newly married couple had to leave, they would try to stir a lot more emotions in the audience. But that's not what Brecht and Weil are trying to do here. And Mackeith's comment that he will make to us is love will or will not endure someplace or another. I mean, it's just a. It's just a very practical, unemotional, unsentimental view of human relationships.
- [63:44]
B
Well, I wonder if she also knew what she was doing when she married him, that she knew he was going to leave. I don't know if you thought about that too, while being introduced in Taktu, if that was also intentional.
- [63:58]
A
I mean, there's. There's a lot that's going on here. Yeah. Now we get to come back to Mrs. Peachum again. Mrs. Peachum, we haven't mentioned this before, but she has quite a low voice. She's a contralto. And sometimes when you listen to her, you can think, whoa, is that a man singing or is that a woman singing? But she does have a low female voice, a contralto. We're going to hear quite a bit from her. And we're going to be introduced to another character, Jenny, an important character. After all, this is the character sung by Laurie Lena in the original. And in this version, Jenny used to.
- [64:33]
B
Be Mat Heath's old lover.
- [64:35]
A
Yes.
- [64:35]
B
And so now Mrs. Peachum is trying to warn Jenny if she spots Mac Heath to turn him in. But they have quite the complicated relationship. Jenny and Mac Heath.
- [64:49]
A
Yeah. That's putting it mildly.
- [64:51]
B
Yes.
- [64:51]
A
Yes. Because we're not sure that Mrs. Peachum knows everything about the background, but Ms. Peachum has a real read on Mackeith, and that's what she's gonna tell us in this song, which we are told is the Ballad of Sexual Dependency. That's the name that. It will be introduced to us that way.
- [65:12]
B
She's trying to explain to us that Matth does not live by our moral code.
- [65:19]
A
No.
- [65:20]
B
That he's a huge egoist and that he only sees a woman, basically, as an object. He won't let a woman come close to him.
- [65:30]
A
Not emotionally, anyway.
- [65:31]
B
No, not at all. And I think there's this theme going on between revenge, class and gender oppression, and the fantasy of liberation through destruction.
- [65:43]
A
Interesting. Yeah, that might be true. Yeah. He. He is depicted here by Mrs. Peachum as someone who doesn't respect anyone or anything, but he always has to come back and be with a woman at night. That's. That's the dependency piece of this. So in other words, he's not all powerful. He's not all entirely separate from the rest of the human race. As much as he can steel himself to the misery he inflicts on people, he has his own needs, which are potentially a weak spot for him.
- [66:19]
B
And that's why I think Mrs. Peachum goes to Jenny, Even though she doesn't entirely know their history, she has a feeling that he will be dependent on her.
- [66:29]
A
Yeah. Polly's out of the picture. There's Jenny. Well, we'll hear a little bit of Mrs. Peachum's song, and you can pick up the attitude. You don't have to speak German to pick up the attitude in this song. Their midst.
- [66:51]
C
Their fresh stone, their shrimps.
- [66:54]
A
The horn, tribal beer. That was Mrs. Peachum having her say and letting us know what Macieth is all about. And now we're going to hear a little bit more from Jenny. Jenny, this former lover, potentially still lover of macith. She's got dreams. She's got expectations. She's got hope. We might call them.
- [69:22]
B
Maybe I was gonna even say dreams of taking this hierarchy down that constantly destroys her.
- [69:31]
A
Well, she's not destroyed yet, but it certainly bruises her.
- [69:35]
B
Yes.
- [69:36]
A
So how is she gonna convey that to us?
- [69:39]
B
She's gonna convey that to us by acting as a pirate on this ship.
- [69:46]
A
Sure.
- [69:48]
B
She's talking about this uproar on the harbor, and I think that's her. Yeah.
- [69:53]
A
And she's talking about how they. The men. Because she starts off by saying, gentlemen, men see her as someone to get work done, someone who is not on their level, and they want things from her, but they don't really recognize or respect her. And she's seething underneath the surface at the treatment that she receives. But it all turns in a different direction in the final section of the song.
- [70:24]
B
Now she's the one taking charge.
- [70:27]
A
Yes. She sees her opportunity to get her revenge on the men and the way that they treat her is just the simplest way to put it, I think.
- [70:35]
B
Yes.
- [70:36]
A
And she's quite happy about that. Yeah. And when the heads roll, she says, I'll say hoopla. Yeah. That's her daydream. That's her getting revenge on this system that oppresses her.
- [70:51]
B
Yeah. She now becomes the avenger after being kind of this powerless servant, turning this completely upside.
- [71:32]
A
By. Fragment. After this daydream of victory on Jenny's part, we see that on stage. She's going to give a signal to the constable.
- [74:49]
B
She's going to turn matth in.
- [74:52]
A
Yeah. There's a benefit to that. And it's very interesting that even where you think that there's loyalty, loyalty is never the most important thing. It's personal gain. It's profit. It's seeing how you can get advantage. Or another way to put it more sympathetically, it's survival. It's me or it's you guy. So she's signaling to turn him in. But after this signal takes place, there's this piece they call the procurer's ballad with Matt Keith And Jenny.
- [75:27]
B
Yes. And now they're kind of reminiscing about their life together.
- [75:33]
A
Yes. Yeah. But they're. It's not a rose tinted view of a couple's life together. No surprise within the context of this opera. But they. They paint a picture of a pretty horrible relationship, honestly. He's been her pimp. Yes. Yeah.
- [75:51]
B
And they're emphasizing that crime and their relationship in this piece.
- [75:56]
A
Yeah. Jenny is. She's been used by Mac. There's a certain amount of companionship there and I guess a certain amount of protection, but it's not. I mean, in pieces. They're trying to portray it as this. This was our daily life. This is what we were like. And if a guy came by, you would leave or I would leave and you could have him in the bed. It's just. It's a little shocking when you listen to this, particularly as the tone of the music is there.
- [76:24]
B
Yeah. I feel like Jenny's role is a little ironic here too, because she's both participating in and mocking the system that she's a part of with Mac.
- [76:34]
A
Well, we'll hear a little bit of this. But know when this piece is over, the two of them are done singing together. The constable she has signaled will put his hand on Macif and take him into custody.
- [77:35]
B
To.
- [78:26]
A
Sam. Mac has just been taken into custody by the law. He has.
- [78:58]
B
And now he sings us this ballad.
- [79:00]
A
Of pleasant living, which is an incongruous title for what's just happened to him.
- [79:05]
B
Exactly. And in this. In this piece, he kind of exposes greed, corruption, and exploitation. And he speaks on this nature of what is pleasant life and this blurred morality of what we should really be looking for.
- [79:25]
A
Yeah. And he brings it down again to the absolute basics. If you've got wealth, you can buy food and you can live pleasantly. That is, that is what he cares about.
- [79:36]
B
And I think he. He talks about what is freedom. People who live pleasantly.
- [79:42]
A
Yeah. And he is saying wealth is the. Or enough money, although he will term it as wealth. That's essential for everything. Again, this is not highfalutin morality. This is very basic. But it reminds me of just this whole concept of the hierarchy of needs, that if you're hungry, if your basic needs aren't met, you can't move on to anything more elevated. And that's where most of these characters are and understandable reasons. You're listening to Opera for Everyone and I am here with Maria Coulter, singer, among other talents, who has performed the role of Lucy in this opera. We are discussing Threepenny Opera by Bertolt Brecht and composer Kurt Weill. We're finally ready to meet Lucy here in Act 2.
- [81:20]
B
Indeed. And Lucy is actually Tiger Brown's daughter.
- [81:24]
A
Yes. The chief of police. His daughter.
- [81:27]
B
Yes. So how convenient that Lucy is also married to Matt Keith and that her father is Tiger Brown.
- [81:36]
A
Oh, that Matt Keith. He is a scoundrel. I mean, that is too kind a word for him, but yes. So we meet Lucy, and she doesn't do one of those introductory arias. Here we first meet her in conflict.
- [81:50]
B
In conflict with Polly, dramaticizing their possessiveness over Makif. Even though both women are aware of their manipulation and seductive nature of Mattheath.
- [82:03]
A
Yeah, they both know that he is. I mean, he's done them dirty, both of them. But they are still fighting it out with each other, contesting who's got more love, which is crazy.
- [82:16]
B
It's so crazy. I think what's really fun about this piece, especially performing it, is they do a little bit of call and response. But then when they sing together, what they're both saying is the same. They're singing in unison here. And kind of how we performed it in our show is there's all this bitterness, all of this drama going on between Polly and Lucy. But then when the two of us sang it together, we just really tried to make it a little bit more humorous and comical to really get the audience's attention and get them to think about their relationship. Because really, at the end of the day, they actually have a lot more in common than not in common.
- [83:00]
A
They do. They have a tremendous amount in common. Their relationship with this awful Mac Heath or this seductive Mac Heath, however you want to look at it. I mean, they both thought the time they spent with him was wonderful. Yeah.
- [83:17]
B
And jealousy here in this jealousy duet is played for laughs. But it underscores kind of like this moral confusion of being cheated on in society. And so where there's no character to really root for. I kind of really want to root for Polly and Lucy. I know that's so biased because I was Lucy, But I wanted them to really work it out during this. During this scene and find power in this duet. Because in Brech's world, they're actually active participants, not just passive victims. They both know exactly what they got themselves into.
- [84:00]
A
And you just kind of want to root for them to break free and into another world, right? Yes. Alas, that's not the world we're in.
- [84:06]
B
No, it's not.
- [84:10]
A
Just to take us out of this show for a moment. I don't Think Brecht would mind? Honestly? I'm reminded of a production I recently saw of La the Sleepwalker, that bel canto opera about this woman who is, within the confines of her very narrow society, accused of misbehaving with a man. But she was sleepwalking unconscious. She hadn't done anything wrong. But in this one particular production, of course, it's all opera without dialogue, so they can't change any of what is sung. But it has her at the end escaping, giving a sisterly nod to the other woman, who's also been accused of bad behavior. I mean, it's not at all how it was meant to be in the beginning, but there was a production where your dream for Polly and Lucy is essentially what happens in this production, where she escapes out of the confines of her little world that condemns her for behavior that's not seen as fitting, and gives like a thumbs up hug, sisterly, you can do it, girl. To the other woman on stage who's also oppressed by the men. It was a fascinating little twist for La Sonambula. However, back here with Lucy and Polly, let's hear a little bit of how these two voices and these two characters interact.
- [85:26]
B
Yes.
- [86:40]
A
Well, we've just met Lucy, but now this is the moment we've been waiting for. My singer of Lucy, Maria. This is what's known as Lucy's aria.
- [86:52]
B
Yes. And it's actually a rage aria.
- [86:54]
A
Ooh, love. A rage aria.
- [86:56]
B
Yes, a rage aria. This was my first time actually performing a rage aria, which is really fun to explore. And for those of you that don't know what a rage aria, it's an aria that expresses anger, fury, or violent emotion, which is all said in the title.
- [87:12]
A
Yes.
- [87:12]
B
But it really gets the audience to feel the character's rage and signals a turning point, like a vow of revenge, which Lucy is definitely trying to convey through this aria. She's talking about poisoning him, talking about death. And this might actually be a pretty bold claim, but going back and looking through this libretto, I feel like this is one of the only songs in the entire show where it really does get the audience to feel, not just think.
- [87:44]
A
That's an interesting observation. You might be right with that.
- [87:47]
B
It's the only true aria that's performed throughout the entire show.
- [87:52]
A
Yeah, it's the only one that is identified that way, I think. Yes. She really is trying to get you to feel this fury that she's feeling.
- [88:04]
B
And I feel like it's a little bit of emotional whiplash as well, because we just went from this really satirical duet into a rage. Arya really shows the complexity behind her character, and she not only sings this aria, but there's also spoken passages throughout the piece, which I think is really powerful. And then in our production, it was the only piece that was performed in German.
- [88:32]
A
Right. I bet the director of that was thrilled that you were able to do the German. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah. She's laying down some pretty serious thoughts here about the evil of mankind. I mean, that's a sweeping statement, but she's worked herself understandably up to that.
- [88:53]
B
Yeah. She says, oh, world, oh, mankind, how evil you are. Not just calling out Mac Heath, not just calling out Paulie, but the world. And really making that promise that she will breathe more easily by getting that revenge.
- [89:09]
A
Yeah, she'll die from my gin. Oh, dear. Makes you not want to drink anything as someone who doesn't totally, definitely like you. Gives you. Yeah, she's. She's gonna get rid of this person. She's gonna get rid of the impediments to what she sees as her happiness. Well, let's hear Lucy Zaria.
- [90:34]
C
O veld.
- [90:39]
A
O mention these ideas.
- [91:26]
B
Them could be R of a moon.
- [91:39]
A
That was Lucy's aria. Lucy's rage aria in Threepenny Opera. Kurt Weill, Bertold Brecht. Do you have anything more to share with us about your experience playing the role of Lucy?
- [91:52]
B
Yeah, something that was really interesting about our production. What Shelley Cooper, our director, decided to do was actually have Lucy free Mac Heath from the jail cell before she sang this rage aria. And so when my character had gone to free Mac, she had opened the jail cell and kind of was hoping to have this rekindling and, like, this romance occur and this form of unity happen after she had done what she could to set him free.
- [92:26]
A
Right.
- [92:26]
B
And then instead, he runs off again. And so what made Lucy sing this aria in our production was him leaving her after she had just freed him, which I think is a really interesting direction to take, to really get that audience to feel that rage she was feeling.
- [92:45]
A
Yes, absolutely. You know, it's so interesting. The role of the director in an opera production is so important to how the audience experiences the story. We have our librettos, we have the music, and those are powerful, powerful pieces and maybe work if you're just listening to a recording, but experiencing the story and having someone tell it also through these singers who are actors on the stage. It's. It's formative in terms of how you view the story and what happens with the different characters.
- [93:19]
B
She also wanted me to have a moment of struggle with opening the cell to get Mackeith out. And this is just kind of a fun little, like, ad lib moment that I had as the show. We were performing them, but a lot during my junior year, I was hearing things, so I'm a soprano.
- [93:40]
A
And.
- [93:41]
B
Which was also difficult to play Lucy because she actually sings alto in the Jealousy duet. And then I have to switch to performing soprano. Didn't realize that her rage aria. So that was extremely challenging, but a really cool way to explore my voice. But regardless, I was hearing a lot my junior year of college. Oh, she's doing that because she's a soprano or she's acting the way that she is because she's a soprano and kind of that stereotype. And so when I was struggling opening Mackie's jail cell during one of the nights, I said, I can't open it because I'm a soprano. And I just decided to embrace, you know, that stereotype of myself and really obviously get the audience's attention. But just call out that moment of, yes, I'm a soprano. Maybe I can't open it, maybe I.
- [94:36]
A
Can'T get this locked up. But I did.
- [94:38]
B
And I'm pissed off at Maggie.
- [94:41]
A
Yes. And you let the whole audience know all about it.
- [94:44]
B
Yes, absolutely. So there's some funny little stories, but.
- [94:48]
A
You know, that's the sort of thing you could do in this kind of show where clearly that takes you out of the moment and the character. But that's what this show does all over the place. So I'm sure you're director and I imagine your director enjoyed that moment.
- [95:02]
B
Oh, totally. Yeah, totally. My brother had come to see the performance and he was not looking forward to it because he thought, you know, it's an opera, and he thought he might be a little border disinterested. He was in the front row corner and they made me drink this entire glass of water after meeting Polly and just to show off. And I always made fun of my brother or my dad for burping at the dinner table. Like, that was super improper. And I took this big swig of water and just completely belched, oh, no. Super loud on purpose. That was another ad lib. That was another thing I added to my character and just tried to embrace that she was opposite from Polly in the way of being more of like this light hearted, light character, but that she was gonna take possessions and be an active participant in her role too.
- [95:55]
A
Oh, wow. Wow, what an experience. And it's also a reminder that each performance of even the same production can have little differences. I mean, that's one of the glories of live art. And that's why we always say on opera for everyone, if you have a chance to see one of these operas in full, in performance, please grab it. We're setting you up to really make the most out of that experience. But please go, go see. And I. I mean, I've only once in my life seen a live performance of Threepenny Opera. And that was, oh, almost 20 years ago, I think, when they did it in New York with Alan Cumming and Cyndi Lauper was in that. So cool. That was a fun production. But I wish I had done this much research before seeing that because it was very different. Even I think that was 2006, maybe. But it doesn't read like an opera that's coming up now on being 100 years old. Right. It just. Yeah, there's a lot going on. And the social criticism, I mean, you may not agree with the conclusions, but the social criticism still is making a point today. Okay, back to our story and the ballad that ends the second act, what keeps a man alive? And we have macith here, not with Lucy, no, singing with Jenny.
- [98:28]
B
Of Fun Live their men in the.
- [98:33]
A
Immersion place dimension P. That was from the ballad about the question of what keeps a man alive. The ending of Act 2 of Three Penny Opera. And what keeps a man alive is.
- [99:31]
B
Well, the chorus answers that for us.
- [99:33]
A
Yeah.
- [99:34]
B
And what they sing is mankind lives just by evil deeds alone.
- [99:42]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And repeatedly we're told, first comes the grub, first you have to eat, and then maybe you can have the luxury of having morality, morals, good behavior.
- [99:55]
B
Right. And in Brecht's world, being good does not guarantee their survival.
- [100:02]
A
No, not at all. Or pretty much in any world, but yes.
- [100:06]
B
Yes. And macieith here survives because of collusion of hypocrisy and those in power. And who's in power here is Tiger Brown.
- [100:17]
A
Yeah. Although there will be a power higher than Tiger Brown making an appearance in Act 3. Okay, Act 3. Let's move on and see what happens in Act 3. Here we are. We're going to see a lot of our familiar characters, and one of them is Jenny. We've just heard from her, but she. She is going to opine a little bit on how the world works again. It's called the Song of Solomon. Interestingly, yes.
- [100:46]
B
Solomon being a biblical and historical figure, kind of speaking on how Solomon was very poetic, had an idealized view of the world. But Jenny here sees the world for how it truly is. And so she's going to explain that in her Song of Solomon.
- [101:07]
A
Yeah. There are four parts to the song. One focuses on Solomon, one focuses on Cleopatra, one focuses on Caesar. And she's saying, yeah, he did all these great things. The people praised him, but look how he ended. Same thing with Cleopatra. Look how she ended after she tried to do all these things. And now number four is Mac Heath. What's going to happen to him? He didn't try to be good or he didn't try to benefit anyone else besides himself.
- [101:34]
B
Exactly. And Brecht really uses Jenny's voice to critique those empty moral and intellectual ideals.
- [101:43]
A
Yeah.
- [102:24]
B
Curtings of wide GE brought ban.
- [102:38]
A
On noon. Coming up to the end of the Threepenny Opera, we're going to return to Macith, but a couple of plot points that I think we should mention. One is, you may be wondering, with his palsy, palsy relationship with Tiger Brown, Chief of Police, how did he get taken into custody in the first place? Well, that's because Peachum, Paulie's father, has told Tiger Brown, Chief of Police, his whole army of beggars will go out on the street and completely disrupt the upcoming coronation Queen Victoria unless Tiger Brown allows Mackeith to be arrested. Polly's parents continue to disapprove of that relationship. And as much as Mackeith and Peachum may have tolerated each other in different spheres of behavior in this underworld, it got too close and it got too personal and Peachum had to do something about it. Again, loyalty is not necessarily a long lived thing in this world. And so that is why Tiger Brown does decide to allow his former friend to be captured. Now, in your production, Makith is freed by Lucy, but in pretty short order he is recaptured.
- [104:47]
B
He is, yes.
- [104:49]
A
So whether he's freed or not doesn't matter. He is recaptured and he is on his way to the gallows at this point.
- [104:54]
B
Yes. And I believe who captured him once again was Jenny. Jenny was the one to betray him once again after Lucy had freed him in our production.
- [105:07]
A
Yeah, you could stage it different ways, but the end result is he is on his way to the gallows. And there's this really interesting piece that he sings. We'll play a little clip of it called the Call from the Grave, where it's very, very fast, sort of that speak singing that Sprechtemme that he is going over his fear of what's going to to happen next. And he in fact will transition into a song where he asks for forgiven. So long. It's pretty dark right here. He's on his way to the gallows. He's asking for forgiveness. We know he deserves terrible punishment for all of his misdeeds, the horrific things he has done. And, in fact, a lot of the characters that we've already met are there. They're going to witness him hanged. I think Lucy was there, too.
- [106:43]
B
Lucy was there, too, actually. In fact, during this production, both Polly and I, while he's about to be hung, are actually really frustrated with him and heartbroken for obvious reasons. And so our director asked us, while he is in the middle about to be put to death, if we would be okay with actually flipping him off and kind of like framing that scene. And I had never actually flipped somebody off before.
- [107:12]
A
Oh, you innocent. I know.
- [107:14]
B
I just never felt comfortable doing that. But it was during that production. It was the first time I had done it. And the more that we did do it, it got to be a little bit more comfortable, obviously.
- [107:25]
A
All in the service of art, but.
- [107:26]
B
All in the service of art. So artistic, so dramatic. But we really were trying to reclaim that power, both Polly and I, which quickly shifts, which we're gonna get into, when all of a sudden, a messenger was playing.
- [107:41]
A
Are you not gonna mention your brother or your family?
- [107:43]
B
Oh, my family. Oh, I was. So this part that I was playing was so different than who I am as a person and what I think my family was about to see. And so this was also my family's first time seeing me flip them off. Now I have a little bit more comfortability to flip something off. It obviously comes at a very rare moment or sometimes a satirical or comical moment. But, yes, that production was the first time I had ever flipped someone off.
- [108:11]
A
They must have wondered about your choice of career here.
- [108:14]
B
I guess so. But we still talk about it to this day. And it was, yeah, such a liberating character to play. And I continued to sing some of these pieces past being in this production.
- [108:27]
A
The shock value that that had for. At least for your family members in the audience, that's part of the shock value that's part and parcel of this show. All right. This next bit of shock is not that kind of shock. It's what we don't expect as opera goers, as theatergoers, because we're expecting at least this element of the world to be set right. Crime and Punishment is. This terrible person who does terrible things is about to be hanged. And that seems like justice to us. But Mr. Peachum comes in and he lets us know, hey, guess what, everybody. Guess what, you think he's about to be strung up? Hanged? Yes, maybe. Not going to work out that way. We're going to have a different ending. We figured out something different for you. And so, again, taking us out of this, so that you might witness, at least in this opera house, how, for once, mercy and not justice carries the day. So, again, that's one of those virtues. And Brecht is putting mercy above justice here. It's actually hysterical, because how does mercy manifest itself?
- [109:36]
B
Mercy manifests itself with him getting away with his crimes and not only living, but he receives a pension and a title.
- [109:46]
A
He does. He does. And there's this amazing choral introduction to this happening. The chorus is going to be very excited. There's a fanfare, and they're going to say, here comes the messenger riding in. It's from the King. It's from the King. It's crazy.
- [110:05]
B
It's so crazy. And I remember in our production, too, we go from this very serious moment where Mackeith is about to die, and then all of a sudden, this very dramatic Hark, hark. The messenger is arriving. And the messenger rides in on one of those ponies with the stick.
- [110:23]
A
Oh, no.
- [110:24]
B
Oh, no.
- [110:25]
A
Oh, no.
- [110:27]
B
And again, takes us out of. Yeah. This is a show we are seeing. This is, you know, theater.
- [110:32]
A
This is my horse.
- [110:33]
B
Yes.
- [110:36]
A
It's absolutely insane when you think of it. In fact, I heard that right before this show was about to open in 1928, Brecht was beside himself because he knew that this was different and it was risky, and he didn't expect it to be a big success. In fact, he. Later on in years, he got worried that it was so successful that maybe people weren't actually taking away the message he wanted to. To give them about social equality and really changing society so that it functioned in a different way and no one was this downtrodden. But in order to assure in 1928, the success of this, he's like, we need to do more. We need to do more. We need a mechanical horse for the messenger to ride in on. I mean, the stick horse is a lot easier.
- [111:20]
B
Yes.
- [111:22]
A
It didn't work out in the end of the day, but. But they tried, like, at the last minute to create this mechanical horse, but. But it's a very funny moment when they just shift gears completely. And the pronouncement from this rider is unbelievable. Literally unbelievable, because he's not only gonna be forgiven, gonna be pardoned, he's given a title, he's given an annual salary. And the Queen sends her Felicitations.
- [111:56]
B
And then all of a sudden, everyone's a fan of Matt Keith again.
- [111:59]
A
Of course. Everyone loves a winner.
- [112:01]
B
Everybody loves a winner. I remember I tried to make Lucy look a little bit annoyed and then kind of go into a hysterical fit where she was crying on stage while doing the Pledge of Allegiance during this really dramatic finale. But.
- [112:21]
A
Yeah, right, we have the chorus jump in here, and I think we're gonna just talk through the end here and then play at the end of the show. We're gonna play the fanfare and the announcement and all this excitement. And the final piece in the opera is a return to. It's a bookend.
- [112:39]
B
Yes.
- [112:40]
A
It's the return to that familiar tune of Mack the Knife. About the happy ending.
- [112:47]
B
It's a happy ending, but it might not be necessarily a happy ending for the audience. Like, not truly feeling satisfied about what happened. And I feel like the same world that condemned Mac Heath suddenly rewards him, which is really confusing for the audience members.
- [113:04]
A
It can be enraging.
- [113:05]
B
Enraging. Exactly. But the narrator announces that since real life doesn't get happy endings for the poor, this is Brecht inventing one.
- [113:15]
A
Interesting, because it's. Even the poor are victimized by Mac the Knife. It's funny because they focus on this happy ending and that the tone is a happy ending. But if you do what Breck has asked you to do and really think about what's going on, this is. This is not happy. No, it's happy for Mac, might be happy a little bit for Polly, but it's not happy for everyone else in the society.
- [113:40]
B
Yes. And that's exactly Brechtian Theater. Him trying to. Instead of letting the audience feel relief, the exaggerating ending jolts them into awareness to really think about what's going on here.
- [113:54]
A
Yeah.
- [113:55]
B
If I could just say a little bit more really quickly about our production.
- [114:00]
A
Yeah.
- [114:01]
B
Roger Pavey, who was wonderful, he really gave us a lot of background during when we did this production back in 2022. And I actually reconnected with him right before I went on this podcast with you. And he reminded me of this quote from Bertl Brecht that we would constantly look at during the show. And this Brechtian quote reads, art is not a mirror held up to society, but a hammer with which to shape it. So I think that's a good. Another way to really cap us speaking on this show, that it's not really something else to reflect on, but really just hammer into getting us to not just feel, but really think about this production.
- [114:45]
A
Magnificent. Maria Coulter thank you so much for joining me today on Opera for Everyone and for suggesting this amazing show.
- [114:53]
B
Well, thank you, Pat, for having me.
- [116:02]
A
In.
- [116:02]
C
Unreasonent, proud, parentless, deepening.
- [116:24]
A
Ra. Ra. Sa. Thanks for listening to this episode of Opera for Everyone. Opera for Everyone airs every Sunday morning from 9 to 11am Mountain Time on 89.1 Khol in Jackson, Wyoming. If you've missed any of today's show, you can find this episode and many others on the Opera for Everyone podcast. And while you're there, please subscribe, rate and comment. By doing this, you'll be helping others to find us. I know opera can be unfamiliar and challenging, but everyone loves a good story, and a story set to music is even better. That's why the mission of this show is to make opera enjoyable for everyone. Opera For Everyone.
- [118:42]
C
Don't.
- [119:33]
A
Sa.