Sean (1:26)

Are you the kind of people that naturally you celebrate smaller wins as opposed to just the big ones?

Jeremy Thurswell (1:31)

Not having a plan? I think sometimes not having a plan is a good thing.

Cassandra Thurswell (1:34)

We're not there yet. Today is the first day at Kish. That's how we treat it every single day.

Mike Beckham (1:40)

Welcome to Operators Titans, presented by Applovin. My name is Mike Beckham and I've had the pleasure of being on over 150 operators podcasts. But today, what you're about to listen to is one of my all time favorites. Cassandra and Jeremy Thurswell from Kitsch are with us today. It is the first and only time that I know of that they've ever appeared on a podcast together and they are going to tell the story of building a business from literally making hair ties in their living room all the way up to a several hundred million dollars empire. It's incredible. And what I love about their story is that what's made it possible wasn't that they had a lot of money that they inherited and were able to build a business with, or they had some really unique break that went their way, but that they have used entrepreneurial spirit and can do attitude and a partnership that is really unique to build something very special that impacts, you know, millions of people's lives every single year. You should get out a piece of paper and take some notes. I guarantee that there is stuff in here that'll help make you a better entrepreneur and probably even a better spouse and a better person. So it was my pleasure to be a part of this interview and I think you're going to love it as well.

Applovin Sponsor (2:56)

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Cassandra Thurswell (4:26)

I want to say that, of course, you know, you. You and Jeremy, you're all very close and. And. But I want to say thank you so much for offering to donate to a charity of our choice. I wouldn't have done it otherwise. I'm just kidding. But no, I. I really, I'm really. I'm so grateful. So I'm on the advisory board called Latinas and Beauty. A lot of people don't know this about me, but I'm Colombian. My paternal side of my family all lives in Colombia. And this organization means so much to me, and your donation means so much to them and to me. So I just really want to thank you very much. It's Latinas and Beauty, so go check it out.

Mike Beckham (5:07)

That is awesome. And we are excited to support such a worthy cause and love that you're contributing there. I think that's one of the things love about you guys. Like, it really was when we were trying to, like, convince you and lure you onto the show. Like, the best way to convince this power couple to come on our show is actually to offer to make a donation to something that's near their heart. And that's amazing. I. I love that about both of you. Let's just kick off here. You have an amazing origin story. The. The company does like, it is the American dream. And for anybody who hasn't heard the kitsch origin story or even. Let's even be before the kitsch, I want to hear some about your background, Cassandra, because I. I had not heard it until recently. And it's amazing. But, like, how did you come to the point where you were ready to start kitsch? Give us some of your background.

Cassandra Thurswell (6:00)

My resume is terrible. It's like, it's almost comical. Um, I always joke. It's like, worked at a cupcake shop kitsch. But I've had my first job when I was 12 years old. My parents were entrepreneurs, and they had us working away when we were really young, stealing envelopes, going in. And. And I tell the story. My. My stepdad was an orthodontist, and. And we would make retainers to make an allowance. And there was just real work ethic that was instilled in me and my sisters from a very young age. And this. Just this idea that, you know, you could create something and, you know, then it goes out into the World. And, and it gets enjoyed by people. And I love that idea. And so before kitsch, I had eight failed businesses and.

Mike Beckham (6:46)

Eight failed businesses.

Cassandra Thurswell (6:47)

Failed businesses. Yeah.

Mike Beckham (6:48)

This is number nine.

Cassandra Thurswell (6:50)

Kitchen's number nine. I mean, and if I went through all eight, you'd be like, oh, that wasn't a real business. But to me, they were all real businesses. Like, things that I was like, this is gonna, this is gonna make me pay my rent and like, make my, like, you know, I really thought it was scalable, I should say. And, you know, and, and my. One of the businesses was my mom and I had a jewelry company together, and we were importing jewelry and, and how. The only way that, that we knew how to have a business was the old fashioned way. Buy products and sell them. And so I was working at flea markets. I was doing door to door sales. And. And then, you know, we were selling them in a small retail shop that we had. So I have a lot of experience in product and in the wholesale world. And that's what actually brought me to Los Angeles because I had this idea there's only so many stores in the Midwest and Minneapolis, Twin Cities area, where I grew up, and I figured I could move out to Los Angeles and there's a lot more stores and I could be going up and down Ventura Boulevard, which is what I did, and do door to door sales. And that's what ultimately brought me out to Los Angeles. And that business failed shortly after I got here. And then I got a job in, in like, I got many jobs. How do I say this without rambling on for 10 minutes? But I, I once, once I close the. Once we closed the jewelry business, I realized I had to go back to school and learn. I really wanted to learn manufacturing. And so I was taking night classes and I got a job working at a cupcake shop. And I got that job because I could start really early in the morning and then go to school at night. And then I wanted to be in the fashion industry. So then I worked at a boutique on the weekends. And while I was in that boutique, I heard someone say, was on the phone. They're like, we really need a jewelry designer. We really need a jewelry designer. And I'm. I remember being like, this is my moment. And I heard. And when he got off the phone, I said, I heard you need a jewelry designer. I'm a jewelry designer. And even though I had never actually designed jewelry, I knew jewelry from the jewelry business that my mom and I had. But I knew how to make retainers from my Stepdad's orthodontic practice. So it was all the same tools. And. And so he brought me in for a trial day, and I realized I had this hidden talent, and that was listening to someone what they wanted and needed and throwing away all of my own personal preferences and creating it for them. What this company was, was private label jewelry manufacturing, and I loved it. I loved being of service to other people. I loved listening to their wants and needs and creating something for them and delivering it. And. And I think I was pretty good at it. So that was. That's my. That's my career history. And I started kitchen at 25. So.

Mike Beckham (10:07)

Okay, so where does Jeremy come in to this picture? At what point do you guys meet? Because this is going to be one of the themes of the episode. You are very unique in terms of being a married couple, building a business together, complimenting each other really well. I want to talk about the relationship building, but you're. It sounds like you're kind of on your entrepreneurial journey already when Jeremy comes into your life.

Cassandra Thurswell (10:29)

Yes, I was. I actually had no time for Jeremy. He reached out to me on Facebook, and that was when I was working at the clothing shop on the weekends, and I was like, you know what? You can come visit me on one of my 15 minute breaks. And he did. And. And I never let him take me out to lunch or anything like that. It was just, you know, at. At these, like, small little moments of the day. And then finally I was like, okay, fine, we can go to dinner. And I remember just absolutely falling in love with him at this dinner, and he was telling me about how adventurous he was, and he's a scuba diver instructor and traveled all around the world, and I was so impressed by him. And. And, yeah, that. That's kind of how that came to be. And I think maybe my lack of availability and it was probably alluring to you.

Jeremy Thurswell (11:27)

No, you're. I mean, look, you're so much more than that. I mean, I always. I mean, the. The joke for me about working with Cassandra and getting to know Cassandra is that I feel like I was one of the first people early on to realize how great she was before kind of the whole world discovered it. I feel like that's my. My claim to fame.

Mike Beckham (11:47)

You got in at the ipo.

Jeremy Thurswell (11:49)

I got. Yeah. No, I got in at the Seed. That's right. That's right. So, yeah. But I mean, I was working in TV at the time. I was working on a show of Vampire Diaries. I was writer's assistant. Show is Taking off, doing really, really well. And I remember just two distinct things. One, being a writer isn't what I thought it would be. It's like, especially in tv, it's quite, quite grueling. And your creativity is kind of managed between a production company and a studio. And sometimes the studio and the production company have two completely different ideas about what the episode should be. So you feel like you're writing in one direction, then you're writing in the other direction. You're kind of flip flopping with these scripts. All the while you have like a really tight shooting schedule because what they do is they stack like there's episode one and then two shoots right after one. They're all kind of like calendared out. So that was a very interesting experience. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I had just gotten passed over for a promotion in my writing career. And I remember at the time Cassandra and I were dating, she was working at this jewelry company. And Cassandra thought, you know, she was almost like promised, I would say one day that she was going to take over the jewelry company. And then you know, kind of suddenly the owner of the jewelry company brought in her two sons. And, you know, I had just kind of gone through this challenge at work and I felt like Cassandra was about to go through the same thing. And I said to her, you know, like, I felt like I just got passed up. You know, Cassandra, you're so great. You should start your own thing. Like, I really believe in you. And this kind of track you have towards taking over this other jewelry company, I don't think it's going to happen because this, this woman's obviously probably going to give the company to her two sons. You know, you can't compete with family. So that's kind of the, the moment I think the, the company was started.

Cassandra Thurswell (14:08)

Yeah, Jeremy was really the one that, like, I'm trying to think into example, but like, you know, when you, when you start swimming classes with your children and like, the first thing is you just got to toss them in the pool.

Mike Beckham (14:20)

Yep.

Cassandra Thurswell (14:21)

And Jeremy, like, he was the one that definitely was like, just get in the pool. Just like go. And like, and, and he really gave me the confidence to start one more business. And we, I, I talked about it and I remember that moment being like, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. I just started saving and literally every penny I didn't get my hair. Like, you know, you live in Los Angeles. Like, you know, you want to get your hair done, you want to look nice. But like, I stopped all that. Didn't buy makeup, didn't get my hair done. We hardly went out to eat. I was eating frozen burritos every day. Talk a lot about that. But, like, it was. It was like it was game time. And, and I saved every single penny and, and I had saved up $30,000.

Sean (15:00)

Is that dynamic still exists today? Guys, like, is. Is like that relationship, I guess, like, risk taking and like, who's going to jump first?

Jeremy Thurswell (15:08)

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm. I'm very high, like, biased to action. I'm very.

Sean (15:15)

No kidding.

Jeremy Thurswell (15:15)

Like you guys. I literally. Guys, like, I relate to this podcast because I was cutting over our TikTok account to like a new. I was like, turned off TikTok shops. We're just spending like, real money now. We're like a top brand on TikTok shops. I'm like, you know what? I can get this in before the podcast. I'm just going to cut over the account. Like, just.

Cassandra Thurswell (15:35)

We're so, we're so different, though, in what we're willing to take risks on. So like, Jeremy, I mean, like, he, like the risks that he take are so, he takes are so terrifying to me. And it's like it. Sometimes it almost gives me anxiety because he's like, he's a confidence level. I mean, even in our personal lives, like when like all of a sudden I don't know where he's like, we're gonna adopt a dog. I was like, wait, what? You know, like. And like, stuff like that. Like, he's just very intuitive and certain about certain areas of our life that I would never ever just, you know, like, take those types of leaps. But some of the risks that I take that I think drive Jeremy crazy. I'm like, we need to rebrand. It needs to happen right now. We're going to rebrand and. Or like, we're going to go to shampoo and conditioner and they're going to be solid and you know, stuff like that. I think we just have different types of risks that we're willing to take.

Mike Beckham (16:32)

It's one of the things I love about these podcasts is just like the personal stories that come out and a couple things that I heard there that I think are really worth remarking on. One is it's just so easy to like, think of the two of you as just like amazingly successful and if people haven't known you and most people that you know now didn't know you during those early, like, sharing that, hey, getting passed over. Both of us feeling passed over in a situation and some of that disappointment actually became the foundation for the company. I just think it's so good for everybody to hear because it's so difficult to imagine the people that we know that have been so successful that they've actually had to go through failure or that they've actually really had adversity. And the other thing that I loved in there is because I think it's so true, is that every great entrepreneur had somebody in their life that was just, that pushed them and said, I believe you can do this. I think almost. No, I mean, it's very hard to have the level of self confidence where you're just convinced you can do it without somebody first kind of really encouraging you and pushing you like, kind of throwing you in the pool like you said. Cassandra. So, okay, you, you set it up great. You ironically built what I would call a beauty brand. I know it's, it's kind of hair, but I mean it's beauty. You built a beauty brand in part by saying, I'm not going to spend any more money on makeup. I'm not going to, you know, we're going to cut all of our expenditures down to the absolute studs. Tell us. And you know, this, this idea that started with making retainers, which is amazing, by the way. Like, I would never guess that, you know, one of the great American beauty brands that's been launched goes back to somebody learning how to make retainers. But tell us about the, the early days.

Cassandra Thurswell (18:19)

I actually love talking about these early days because the, the first year you, Jeremy, was working in TV and I was working out of the apartment and I was doing the private label jewelry aspect, but I knew, ultimately wanted to have a brand and I thought about my upbringing in the, in, in the Midwest and how these really simple products frequently get overlooked. And one of the products that I, I kept going back to and like Walmart was where a lot of, a lot of people from my hometown shopped or it was like the local drugstore. It just these basic items that you, everybody goes and picks up. I wanted to be a brand that wanted that, that provided these, these really important items, but maybe that are just like overlooked for the consumer that likes, wants like a slightly nicer version of it. And so what was that item? It was a basic hair elastic and, and I could actually hand make it out of the apartment. And that was important because I didn't have the orders or the resources or the retailers to be able to produce at scale. So I started hand making the hair accessories out of our apartment and Doing door to door sales, doing trade shows, doing what I knew in building the brand. I remember Jeremy, I don't know if you know this about him. He's very tidy. He likes to keep. Keep things very nice and organized, which I really appreciate. But running a business out of an apartment and hand like with materials and everything, getting like, you know, packing orders. I remember the house would be in. The apartment would be insane. It would be total mess. And I would spend so much time just like trying to clean up before he got home. And it was like, it was like I set up shop, I take down shop. I'd set up shop, take down shop. But you know, I think those beginning years I was, I would sit there and I would make. I would be listening to self help books. I'd be sitting there trying to keep my mindset. Like all I have to do is just get to get through these orders, get the orders for today, get the check in, pay for more supplies. And it was like very much a slow incremental mindset of like, this is not about 10 years from now, 20 years from now. It's like, how do we get through the day? How do we get through the week? What are some, what are some key retailers that would be dream retailers to be in? And, and that was, that was really formative, I think, for the foundation of, of the company in, in really thinking more about like, how do we do this right, right now versus like in ten years from now.

Mike Beckham (21:07)

So Jeremy, during this period, what are you doing?

Jeremy Thurswell (21:11)

Well, I mean, it's funny you're saying, oh, well, when it comes home, like I was still working in TV till like 2am in the morning, a lot of nights. And then on the weekends sometimes I remember we would. This is like when the. I mean this is so. I mean the Voice is still going on, but gosh, like this is in 2010, 2011, when like that show the Voice was really popular. We would just sit in front of the couch on the weekends and like watch reruns of the Voice or something. Like we would just watch TV and just tie and bag these hair ties. And then I remember, I mean, I remember we had to go set up like a credit card.

Mike Beckham (21:50)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (21:51)

We're like, okay. And like we both like checked our credit. And I was like, okay, I guess I can, I can get approved for like an American Express plum card. And I was like, this is amazing because you can like roll it over and you have like 60 days.

Mike Beckham (22:03)

The plum card was legendary. If you were in business in that period, the Plum Card was the honey pot.

Cassandra Thurswell (22:10)

Especially working with wholesale too. Being able to wait for that check to come in 60 days later.

Jeremy Thurswell (22:16)

Yeah, I mean because we. Yeah. So like I, my involvement was like a little bit of like, okay, like just basic infrastructure, like setting up QuickBooks and like I've always kind of been techie so I was like, okay. Like I. And I was you know, pre med in, in college. So I like had done like just a lot of math in college and so I was like, okay, I'll do like QuickBooks. I'll start with a credit card and like, you know, help with like FedEx and like literally drive Cassandra to like the, to drop off packages because like we couldn't even like the park. We didn't want to pay for parking. And I remember, I remember she would like was running in to get packages and I like parked illegally and this whatever like the meter maid parking enforcement came and was like writing me a ticket and I was like, you know, like we are going to lose all of our profit from dropping off these packages. Like this ticket is going to like clear as.

Mike Beckham (23:12)

Oh my gosh, that's an amazing fixture.

Jeremy Thurswell (23:14)

And I started, and I started like just berating the parking guy to the point where he like wrote our license plate number down wrong and so the ticket was invalid and I was like this is amazing.

Sean (23:27)

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Jeremy Thurswell (24:21)

So this.

Mike Beckham (24:23)

That's amazing. Like you guys are so scrappy. One of the things that's interesting about you is that like even though the business is at just like almost unfathomable scale at this Point, you still have that same scrappiness. And, like, I. I know that that goes all the way back, you know, really, to, like, your childhoods. But, like, are there any other stories of the scrappiness? I think you berating the. The person trying to write you a ticket to the point that he's flustered enough that he writes the license plate down wrong. That's pretty good. Are there any other examples that come to mind?

Jeremy Thurswell (24:52)

I mean, it was the most insane story ever.

Mike Beckham (24:54)

Who.

Jeremy Thurswell (24:55)

China story.

Cassandra Thurswell (24:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (24:56)

Like, our first trip to China was to.

Cassandra Thurswell (25:00)

Well, first of all, it was on our honeymoon.

Jeremy Thurswell (25:02)

It was

Mike Beckham (25:05)

on a China, like, sourcing trip together.

Jeremy Thurswell (25:07)

You're like, well, we didn't know it was a sourcing trip.

Cassandra Thurswell (25:10)

Okay.

Mike Beckham (25:10)

I was gonna say that's peak scrappy. If you're. If you're blending those two, that's amazing.

Jeremy Thurswell (25:13)

No, it's worse. It's worse than sourcing. It's so much worse.

Cassandra Thurswell (25:17)

First, we couldn't afford. First, you can afford the ticket to go to China. So we had a friend offer a buddy pass for us.

Jeremy Thurswell (25:24)

And I don't know what a buddy pass is.

Mike Beckham (25:25)

What is a buddy pass?

Jeremy Thurswell (25:27)

Buddy pass is, like, when you. I had a friend who worked at an airline, and you get. You can give away these passes to fly on the airline on, like, open seats, on standby seats, and international. It's great. Like, you get these buddy passes because most of the open seats haven't happened to be first class. If you're literally, like, on the computer, like, where are we?

Mike Beckham (25:46)

Hours.

Jeremy Thurswell (25:46)

Hours before the flight, you're like, is there an open seat? Is there an open seat? Flat. But let me just, like, give the headline. The headline is like, we had discovered that, like, all these counterfeits of our printed hair ties were showing up at, like. Like, big retailers.

Cassandra Thurswell (26:02)

You probably don't want to name the retailers, so we could just.

Mike Beckham (26:05)

You can. Just Leading retailers.

Cassandra Thurswell (26:08)

Yeah, Sarah, please don't.

Jeremy Thurswell (26:11)

No, I mean, they're. Well, anyway, we can talk about it later. But then we realized they weren't counterfeits and that our factory was selling the overruns of the fabric.

Cassandra Thurswell (26:22)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (26:23)

So I was like, okay, we're going. So, like, we're getting. Right after our wedding, it was like, okay, we got a little bit of time. Like, we're going to China. Sort this out. Can you swear on this podcast you can.

Mike Beckham (26:34)

You can say whatever you want on this podcast?

Jeremy Thurswell (26:36)

And I was like, we need to sort this out.

Sean (26:37)

Like, you're good, dude. Just whatever you gotta do.

Mike Beckham (26:40)

Yeah. Basically, that's the formula. Everybody but me cusses on this podcast. And I'm the one guy that doesn't cuss.

Jeremy Thurswell (26:46)

Gotcha.

Mike Beckham (26:47)

Okay, so you're like, we gotta sort this out. So you guys basically bummer ride an international flight to China. What happens?

Jeremy Thurswell (26:56)

So we had. We called our freight forwarding company and we're like, we have this issue with our vendor. We think our vendor's stealing from us. Can you help us? And so we. We knew where the vendor's factory was because the freight forwarder would go to pick up from this place. So we meet up with the freight forwarder in Qingdao, China, and we're like, let's go over there.

Mike Beckham (27:19)

And the factory is no operation, basically.

Jeremy Thurswell (27:22)

Yeah, basically a sting operation. The factory is like. The factory is like, no idea that we're in China.

Cassandra Thurswell (27:29)

We're like, okay, so how are we gonna do this?

Jeremy Thurswell (27:31)

Yeah, we have no idea what the heck we're doing. And so we're like. We're literally outside the factory. And I just shoot, like, we're dry. We're driving on the way to the factory, and I shoot him an email. And I was like, we're gonna be at your factory in five minutes.

Mike Beckham (27:43)

Oh, my God.

Jeremy Thurswell (27:45)

So we basically, like, just burst through the door and he's like, completely. The factory owner is, like, completely lost it. Just like, just chain smoking cigarettes. No, I, like, just beside himself. And we saw like, all the boxes. We start opening boxes. We realized, like, okay, all this stuff, like, is our. Is our material and our designs and our prints that are going to other places. So then I really didn't know what. I didn't know what to do. So I just was like, okay, well, we need some evidence. So I just, like, had the freight forwarder. We just took all of their computers through.

Mike Beckham (28:21)

Wait, you just.

Jeremy Thurswell (28:22)

You.

Mike Beckham (28:23)

So you basically just confiscated all of their. Like, I don't. I don't know Chinese law. I'm gonna guess it doesn't work that way. But you just were like, here, give me your laptops. And they did.

Jeremy Thurswell (28:33)

Well, yeah, because we have like a. We had like, an unpaid bill for like a couple hundred thousand dollars. Oh, my gosh. So we're like, well, we're like, we need to sort this out. So we were like, we need to see what's going on.

Cassandra Thurswell (28:44)

So then we took him to lunch after.

Jeremy Thurswell (28:46)

Yeah, then we took him to lunch. Yeah, then we. Then we ended up. We Edward take his stuff, and he felt like, really beside himself. So then we had lunch and then we. We went home and we went through we went through all the computers. We realized that. I think this is like, Cassandra, a little sensitive. Some of the retailers were like, pretty complicit in like, hey, we want to make this kitsch product. Can you take the kitsch logo off and put, yeah, X, Y, Z retailer on it? I mean, some of it's not a secret because it's like in a public lawsuit, but it's still.

Sean (29:19)

Probably like that probably also still happens today. I mean, it happens all the time and with large retailers and.

Jeremy Thurswell (29:25)

Happens all the time.

Cassandra Thurswell (29:25)

Yeah, all the time.

Mike Beckham (29:27)

But what does not happen all the time is people showing up in China and bursting through the door and taking all the laptops and then going after everybody doing it. That. That part is unique.

Cassandra Thurswell (29:41)

On your honeymoon.

Mike Beckham (29:42)

On your honeymoon. Yeah. Thank you, Cassandra. On your honeymoon. There's nothing more romantic than busting IP infringement. Really?

Cassandra Thurswell (29:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (29:51)

It honestly was an amazing. It was an amazing trip.

Cassandra Thurswell (29:54)

It was the best trip ever.

Jeremy Thurswell (29:56)

There are great photos. Like, the waterfront in Qingdao is beautiful. We went to Shanghai.

Cassandra Thurswell (30:03)

Yeah. Japan.

Jeremy Thurswell (30:04)

We went to Tokyo.

Cassandra Thurswell (30:05)

Well, we had to because we were on the buddy pass.

Mike Beckham (30:07)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (30:08)

So we didn't know how to get home. We didn't know how to get home. So we were like, we had to go through Narita.

Mike Beckham (30:13)

We're stuck in China with all these laptops, but we don't have a way to get home. So we're just gonna catch whatever flight we can.

Jeremy Thurswell (30:20)

Is this.

Cassandra Thurswell (30:21)

Yeah.

Mike Beckham (30:21)

Are you gu. You're like a cartoon.

Cassandra Thurswell (30:24)

We are a cartoon.

Jeremy Thurswell (30:24)

It's ridiculous.

Cassandra Thurswell (30:25)

When we. But when we landed back in Portland or something, I think it was Portland. On the way back, we were like, okay, we're ready to be home. Like, the adventure is done. So I think that that was like, let's wrap it up.

Jeremy Thurswell (30:36)

But then you know what we did? We, we'd never been on like a first class flight with like the lay down seats. I was like, these lay down seats are amazing. Like, I've never had anything like this. Like the, you know, like the.

Mike Beckham (30:49)

Yes, you. You cannot sit in first class. Like, the first time you sit in first class, it kind of like, I don't know, black pills you or whatever, where it's just like, it's very difficult. Then you, you just long for the lay downs in any international flight at least.

Jeremy Thurswell (31:02)

So then like we bought, we bought the bed that kind of goes up and down and we saw that we still have the same beds.

Cassandra Thurswell (31:11)

We're like, we're like 80 year old, 70 years later.

Mike Beckham (31:15)

This is amazing. Like, it's interesting if you talk about, like, weird circles overlapping, like, a very sl. Small Venn diagram overl overlap. It's like, there's a circle of, like, ways to save money I've never heard of. And then a circle of people that are very, very wealthy. And there's this little sliver, and Jeremy and Cassandra live right in that little sliver where. Of overlap, where somehow you're, like, some of the wealthiest people I know, and that you constantly are like, oh, yeah, you can save money doing this or this or this. And I'm like, I've never even heard of this before. Like a buddy pass. I've been educated. Okay, Jeremy, at what point are you like, hey, this is actually what I want to do. I want to work in the business. Not just, like, hey, I'm setting up QuickBooks and I'm supporting my wife because this is her thing. But, like, I want to be a part of this. When does that happen?

Jeremy Thurswell (32:05)

That's a. That's a good. That's a great question, Mike. You're so great at asking questions, dude. I remember I was just. I was just wrapping up, like, a really, really, really cool show. A lot of great people working on it. And I remember. And it was in Burbank, and I remember Cassandra and I had this idea. Again, it's not like we're trying to save money. It's like, we just, like, literally have to be creative because there's no other way to, like, get from point A to point B without figuring it out. Like, money is not going to get us there. And I remember thinking, okay, well, if we rent. I mean, we were thinking about it together. If we rent, like, a office downtown. If we rent an office downtown, we could get a couple interns from, like, fidm. We get some, like, free college interns, and that could, like. That labor could offset the cost of, like, our tiny little office space downtown, and it would kind of, like, net itself out. We could figure this out. I remember I had just gotten back to, like, the writer's office from signing the lease, and the show's wrapping up, and I get a call, and they're like, hey, do you want to interview for the show Dexter for its, like, final season? I was like, the. I was, like, a huge Dexter fan. I'm still a Dexter. It's incredible show. It's like, it would have been a dream opportunity of mine. And I hung up the phone. I was like, damn, I just signed this lease. Like, what am I gonna do? And I remember just, like, praying, and I, like, you know, being Like, God, why'd you do this to me? And God. And this, like, message I got back, it was like, I gave you this opportunity because if you're going to work at this business with Cassandra, I want it to be something that you're choosing to do, not because you don't have any other choice, but it's like a proactive choice, not a choice out of necessity. And I remember being, like, feeling very, very empowered, being like, yes, I'm choosing to do this. It was also around the time where, like, we had just gotten those products into anthropology, so we're, like, a little bit out of order. Like, this happened before the Chinese.

Cassandra Thurswell (34:28)

You also had that huge opportunity to move to Seattle. And we. And I was.

Mike Beckham (34:31)

No, I got.

Jeremy Thurswell (34:32)

I got rejected from that.

Cassandra Thurswell (34:33)

I know.

Jeremy Thurswell (34:38)

We were going to move to Seattle to make it work at Microsoft. Yeah, move to Seattle. How different would our lives have been? Yeah, it's like you, you know, you always are grateful for the things that happen to you. But I think very few people realize, like, how much gratitude we all should have for the opportunities that we don't get and the things that we don't get. Like, all the promotions and opportunities I didn't get. You. Don't you think it's a loss, but really, if you look, you know, like, 15 years later is such a gift. Such a gift. I don't have to move to Seattle. It's such a gift. I didn't get these jobs.

Mike Beckham (35:21)

I love that. Framing Jeremy. Because we all have paths not taken in our life. And I think for some people, I think it ends up leading to resentment, bitterness, what ifs. Like, yeah, if I had taken that, would my life be better? Would I be happier? Would I have more money? You know, would my relationships be better? Whatever. And then there's a very different mindset that I think is very common to the most successful people I've known, which is just gratefulness for what they do have. It's really like, I talk about it a lot internally, the difference between entitlement and great gratefulness. And it was interesting to hear you say it, even right there, like. And I think you would say that even if kitsch hadn't been, you know, this gazillion dollar business. But it's. I think it's a mindset thing that's subtle. But successful people are able to be grateful for the path that they're on, as opposed to constantly looking around and what if. Ing all the other options. But I will say, Cassandra, it had to feel great. You've started this thing, most of entrepreneurship is trying to convince people that the thing you started is, like, valid and matters, and then the person that matters most to you is like, yeah, I'll pass up on an opportunity to be a part of, you know, one of, like, one of my dream opportunities to be with you. Working on it. That had feel great.

Cassandra Thurswell (36:42)

Oh, my gosh. It was better than great. Jeremy is so strong in so many areas where I'm weak and. And he's. And Jeremy and our daughter and our daughter, they have been my greatest teachers. And yeah, I think it's. It's the greatest thing that ever happened. People always ask us, like, how do you work with your significant other? And I always say, how do you not. How do you not work with your significant other? I feel so lucky.

Mike Beckham (37:12)

I'm going to make an editor's note that I'm going to break out of the flow here for a little bit because you brought it up. I think the fact that you've done this as a married couple is one of the more unique things that you've, like all, all of your business relationships, your personal, like, it is. So, you know, like, somebody said this to me once and I loved it, that trying to separate your. Your personal life and, and your business life when you. You run a company is like trying to nail jello to a wall. But I think for you in particular, that's especially true. How has your relationship been able to thrive through having to wear so many different hats with each other and be partners in so many different contexts?

Cassandra Thurswell (37:55)

I think just like anything, it's mindset and it takes work. It takes work. Like, like a lot of people, A lot of people think like, oh, to. And I don't. I don't have all of the answers or secrets to having, like, the best relationship, because I think every relationship is different. But I think one thing that we have done very well is we don't do, like, these extreme vacations, and we don't do date, like, specific date nights or anything like that. We do it daily. We spend time together daily. We go on a walk every single morning together. We go and get coffee together. We have these, like, real. We have connections every day. And. And another thing too is I think there's been so many moments where we've been in difficult situations and we've prevailed together. And I think, you know, it wasn't always easy, but. But we, but we did it and we did together. And that. I think that that's like, once you've done that so many times, you build A level of resiliency together that. That is. Is.

Sean (38:58)

Cassandra, do you. Do you guys have. Are you the kind of people then that are. I guess, like, naturally you celebrate smaller wins as opposed to just the big ones.

Cassandra Thurswell (39:10)

It's really interesting. I actually don't think we celebrate a lot, and I know that that's like a little like even like our birthdays or whatever. Like, it's what you were talking about before. Mike. We just have a lot of gratitude. I don't. We're just not like. And we could do more of it. I think, you know, it'd be really fun to do that a little bit more, you know, but. But we're not like, we're not oversharers. I mean, this is the first time we've ever done an interview together. And we just really like the simplicity of life. There's just so. We have so much joy in the day to day

Mike Beckham (39:53)

again, we're like, so honored that you're doing your first interview, like, together. And. And I. Part of it is like, Jeremy has been on more of these type of things, or at least in our network than you have, and your voice is like, so powerful and helpful. But I think that the word that comes to mind is I think there is real humility with the two of you, and humility is not. I think there's this misconception, especially in like, certain parts of the Bible belt, like, that humility is this kind of like pretending you're not good at things. And that's not really what humility is. I think humility is just like an accurate view of self. You're both very competent and very good in several different areas, but you're also able to keep it in perspective of the larger world. And so it's one of the reasons why I think, in my experience, being around you, that you're able to have thankful hearts and to be such enjoyable people to be around, because for all of your success, it's mixed with this real groundedness and real humility.

Cassandra Thurswell (40:57)

Thank you.

Jeremy Thurswell (40:58)

My question on arts, I mean, to add what to what Cassandra said, I think, like, there's a.

Cassandra Thurswell (41:08)

There's.

Jeremy Thurswell (41:08)

There's a real level of true partnership. And I think there's a couple elements to, like, what true partnership is.

Mike Beckham (41:15)

And, you know, it's.

Jeremy Thurswell (41:18)

Our partnership is always evolving, but I think part of it is that each of us has to have, like, equal voice. And, you know, one person can't dominate and say, hey, we're doing it this way. What you say doesn't matter, as opposed to, like, okay, let's. Because I. I think the thing that makes us strong and that most people don't understand about partnership, I think people think partnership is that everyone agrees. And it's like, Cassandra and I are completely different people with completely different backgrounds and brains and ways of thinking about things. I think we do share a lot of the same values, but our. Our differences in our ability to converse about those differences and hear each other out and take time and think about those things and consider each other and then also say, like, okay, well, who's. Whose department is this in? You know, like, and. And who. Who's gonna make it? Like, if it's product, Like, Cassandra understands product, like, way better than me. Like, I don't understand product, you know,

Mike Beckham (42:28)

like, so I love the idea of you lecturing her about women's hair. That would be so good, like, how a product should be.

Cassandra Thurswell (42:34)

I. I actually disagree. I think Jeremy is a great knack for product, but more so, like, I'll come up with a product idea, and he'd be like, wait, what about it this way? And I think it's really helpful.

Jeremy Thurswell (42:46)

Anyway, sorry, but no, but I mean, but I think. I think, like, because I don't use the products, I do have more of an objective view point on it, and I can, like, kind of divorce, like, what I like from it because I don't, like, I'm very objective to it. So, like, I think. I think that. I think that helps. But I would say, like, true partnership is like, hearing that other person's perspective, but also realizing that there's another person with a different perspective.

Cassandra Thurswell (43:09)

It.

Jeremy Thurswell (43:09)

And there's, like, kind of two ways of looking at it. And we always say, like, when we both finally, like, come to an agreement, like, those are the best decisions we've made for the company is when, like, both of us, like, really feel it and. And are excited about it. So I would say, like, it's. It's true partnership. And then the other part. And this just goes for being an entrepreneur, but also, like, I think I'm very grateful that both of us have been willing to. To evolve as people over time. Like, when I started, when we started this, like, we didn't know how to be managers. It's like, okay, we have to learn how to be managers. Oh, that's so painful. It's, like, miserable sometimes. Being a manager was like, okay, well, we want to. We want to have a company. In order to have a company, you got to learn how to be a good manager. You got to learn how to do this you got to learn how to do that now, you know, we're doing, like, executive coaching, and we're both participating in it, we're both invested in it. And, and I think in order to, you know, run a successful business, but also have a successful partnership, both partners have to be invested in, in growing as. As people do.

Sean (44:18)

I'm so curious on this thing culturally in the company. This idea of pursuing what's right, not who's right between the two of you, does that then ladder down through the business? Like, have you guys encouraged this amongst your team? Like, we. We don't really care about who's right. We care about what's right. And we want discourse and debate and

Mike Beckham (44:38)

all of that stuff.

Jeremy Thurswell (44:40)

I mean, I mean, I think.

Mike Beckham (44:42)

I think it's.

Jeremy Thurswell (44:42)

I think it's less about that. It's more the way we view it. I would say, like, you're saying it. I would just say it a different way. It's like, it's. We all. We all win together. You know, I think the one thing that's made our business really incredible but also really challenging is the fact that we sell so many products in so many different channels. And so, like, you can imagine that, like, you know, if one channel runs a discount one week, like, it's another channel might, you know, have a little bit of a deficit. You know, if, like, Amazon runs a sale, Shopify might, you know, lose share to Amazon. If, you know, Shopify runs a sale, Amazon might lose share to that if wholesale runs a sale. It's a whole other thing. And what we've taught the team and, or, and I don't even know if we've taught, but I think we've, like, hired culturally for these types of people, is that we. That we really hire people who don't really have ego about, like, you know, I'm winning, you're not winning. Like, I need to meet my numbers, even if it's at the expense of your numbers. It's like, you know what? Like, we all win if the company meets the. At its numbers.

Cassandra Thurswell (45:50)

Yeah.

Mike Beckham (45:53)

So I think one thing that I take away from that is that people really underestimate how valuable a skill it is to do conflict well and how, like, the best decisions come from teams that are actually comfortable living with some conflict and saying, hey, I don't.

Cassandra Thurswell (46:12)

You.

Mike Beckham (46:12)

Even in this interview, you've said, I disagree several times. And I think that just kind of speaks to the type of relationship that you are. You both have independent points of view, and although you really value the relationship, you're willing to speak that point of view and that helps you to be stronger and make stronger decisions. I think that's kind of a takeaway you could apply to any team. And it's one of the reasons why trust is such a big deal is that it's hard to have good conflict if you don't have trust. People won't share what they really think. They won't speak up and disagree. They'll let the idea that it's a B minus idea just go forward just because it's easier to not say anything. Whereas great teams are like, no, let's, let's be willing to be a little bit uncomfortable, to really talk all the way through it. But we can do that because we know that everybody wins together and because we're for each other. And I hear that with you guys. So I want to transition a little bit back to the business. Like you've started selling hair ties. There is some momentum. Jeremy is going to be a partner in this and the roles are CEO, COO or something like that.

Cassandra Thurswell (47:13)

I mean, we always, we always joke, like, even, even today too, we're like, we kind of joke about the, the titles because we just feel like again, like what Jeremy said, like, it's like, I don't, I don't know. There's. There's something about calling yourself a CEO when there's four of you.

Mike Beckham (47:32)

Yeah.

Cassandra Thurswell (47:33)

When there's four people as a company, it's kind of like. But, but no, I think, you know, I think, yeah, that was, that was, I guess the official title since the beginning.

Jeremy Thurswell (47:45)

I, I was thinking about this, like in look, it's ultimately Cassandra. Like, Cassandra was the day one founder here. Like, I joined after a year. Cassandra is like the inspiration in the heart and soul of the company. But now we have, you know, like almost 250 folks at the company. And now it really feels to me like the company belongs to everyone here. And I think Cassandra and I both really believe in servient leadership. So it's like, you know, it's almost like I work. It's like, almost like an upside down pyramid in the way that we see the business where we're there to support all the other people who work here. I think a big, big misconception I personally had early on is like, oh, Cassandra and I can just do all the work and we just need more support. And I think, you know, in the last like five or six years, we were like, no, we need people who are way smarter than us. Yeah. Way more specialized, way better than us. Like we just need to be great at hiring, inspiration, management and stay in our zones of genius. And so we, but it's like even finding your zone of genius is just a very, it's not an easy thing.

Cassandra Thurswell (49:07)

It's like, yeah, I do, I do think that one of the things that Jeremy and I have done so like one, one thing we've done really well is understanding like what are our strengths and not, not from like, like, like just thinking that that's our strength. It's just because we've been doing this for so long. It's like, okay, I have a pattern here. This is the pattern where like I continue to like have issues. I need to hire someone who's much better at this than I am. And that takes like a very self aware person to, to be able to point it out. Especially if that is like I have a hard time following, following through on things. Like that's a lot of people have a, a challenge. Like I have, have a lot of people have issues admitting those things. Especially when you're in like a senior leadership role.

Jeremy Thurswell (49:58)

And, and I think like, I think you, yeah, like if you're a CEO or coo, like founder, co founder, like you want to be all things to everyone. But I think that's the thing that we're learning is that like that's not, that's not really our role. I mean if you look at like you know, corporate leadership and the people that become CEOs like they come from everywhere. Like the CFO becomes a CEO, the CMO becomes a CM CEO. The Chief Legal Officer can become CEO or coo. So it's like where, where you're not all things to everyone. It's like where, where is your zone of genius? And like how do we just be. Hire great executives who can kind of fill in all the missing, all of our missing pieces. And I think that's really like in our part and that, that really goes to our partnership is like how as partners can we fill in each other's missing pieces and how can we support each other to, to, for people to like, you know, we've had to support each other in growing, you know, through a lot of hard growing pains.

Cassandra Thurswell (51:05)

Oh my gosh, I will never forget this time. And, and I, I think, I think maybe not as common. I. One of my favorite things about being an entrepreneur, CEO, founder is the people, like the people we get to hire. And managing the people is like one of my favorite things. One of my least favorite things is having to let someone go when it's not working. And I am going to give you an example of what Jeremy's talking about because I have a tendency to be a people pleaser and to have. I have a high level of codependency. I will never forget. I had to let some. Let someone go. And Jeremy was sitting in the room with me and I was like, I just want to let you know, like, you know, I really like you. You're a great person. And like we had done.

Jeremy Thurswell (52:01)

I love that you did this, this.

Cassandra Thurswell (52:03)

And Jerry is like, looking at me, he's like, what is going on here? He knew that ultimately, like, we. At the end of this conversation, she's not going to have a job. And what I was doing was like, trying to like, coddle her. And he looked at me after that and he was like, everyone was confused in that.

Mike Beckham (52:22)

And I said.

Jeremy Thurswell (52:22)

I said this person didn't know if they were getting a promotion or exactly.

Mike Beckham (52:25)

They don't know what kind of conversation they're having.

Cassandra Thurswell (52:27)

But I'm not laughing. Like, it really was a pivotal moment for me. And Jerry was so good at coaching me and really making and of course, like it. I learned in so many ways. But, you know, like having that support system and having someone next to me that I can really trust and it's. It's not easy to hear that from your husband nonetheless, like someone you work with. But he really was like, you know, instilled in me. And now, you know, when I have to be in and unfortunately be in that position, the first thing I say is, today is your last day. I catch and like, you know, that's it completely transformed. You know, Jeremy's really supported me in transforming my leadership style. And you know, I used to think like, it the. The title of a CEO, as a woman, you need to be like, strong and you need to be, you know, like all of these labels that I think. And one of the things that I'm realizing more than anything is like, you know, just. Just being really clear at the tone of how we treat people at our company. Emotional regulation, you know, being. Being. Being able to like, sit there and really listen to people. Like, I never thought that those were really strong leadership skills. And. And then just be really clear, really clear. Where are we going? What do we need? And I think that, that, that a lot of that came from our relationship dynamic.

Mike Beckham (53:47)

How you treat people is the thing that they remember. And we can tend to think as leaders that it's all about me producing the outcomes that people are going to like that are going to make Them feel cared for by me are going to impact our relationship. But it's, I think it's much more how we, we treat people. And, you know, we've not had to let many people go, but there was a time where we hired somebody who was later in career. She'd gone through a divorce and we hired her into a role because we thought maybe and she just couldn't get there technology wise. And so we had to let her go after two or three weeks. And she will bring charcuterie boards up to the office to this day every few weeks because of the way she was treated. And I just think we use a phrase within the company that we want to be relational instead of transactional. And the business at its worst is like, everybody's a cog, right? It's like, what can you do for me? And then the moment you can't do something for me, you're gone. What I love about what you guys are saying and the upside down triangle and servant leadership and all this is it's like, what if you treated people as people and sometimes like there isn't a role for them anymore, Sometimes it doesn't. You know, you are at the end of the line of being able to work with them. But there's never really any reason to not treat people as people and to treat them like cogs. And I feel like all the most successful people eventually figure this out. I loved how you guys, I think

Sean (55:06)

the word is grace. Like you just, you move with some grace through the world, right? And it sounds like you guys do that with just great exception.

Mike Beckham (55:16)

The other thing that I like that came out there is I just think self awareness. I say this over and over again and it's interesting because I'll talk about a lot of different things, but I'll say, like, I think the hardest thing about business is managing yourself. And I think the reason why it's so hard to manage yourself is because you have to develop high self awareness. And that that requires going after your own insecurities and being willing to say, I'm not very good at some things. And you guys both said that, right? Like, hear this. If you're, if you're an aspiring business leader, Jeremy and Cassandra are as successful as it gets. And what they are both saying is that part of their success is rooted in understanding all the things that they are not great at. So if you feel like there's areas where you're not very good or you're kind of embarrassed or, you know, whatever, like join the club. That's everybody and it's the most successful people realize that. The other thing is, like, you can't attract talented people in the areas where you're weak. If you don't know you're weak in those areas, you will drive talented people crazy. Like, if you're not a very high follow through person and then you hire somebody who's excellent at follow through and, but you don't know you're not good at follow through, get. That's going to be like nails on the chalkboard for that person. Right?

Cassandra Thurswell (56:27)

Yeah.

Mike Beckham (56:28)

So I want to know at what point it became obvious to you guys that like, this isn't just going to make it, but this is going to make it make it.

Cassandra Thurswell (56:40)

We, we're not there yet. We just, I don't know if you realize we started today is the first day at kish. That's how we treat every single day. One first day.

Mike Beckham (56:50)

When was the point where you were fairly confident that this was going to be a 20, 30 year business?

Cassandra Thurswell (56:59)

I literally don't know how to answer this question.

Mike Beckham (57:02)

Oh, I like that.

Jeremy Thurswell (57:03)

I mean, I mean, look, we've been trying to.

Cassandra Thurswell (57:05)

No, I mean, I really don't, I saw, I really, you can answer it differently. But like, I don't know, we just, I personally have seen it. I see the business as like day by day. It's the same thing. Like, it's, it's, I really genuinely feel like we're just getting started. I have so many ideas. So many.

Sean (57:28)

Cassandra, that's coming from a place of like, optimism, though. You're not, you're not saying that from a, I don't know if this will work. You're saying it from a, like, like a fear.

Jeremy Thurswell (57:36)

It's not coming from fear.

Sean (57:37)

It's coming from like abundance.

Cassandra Thurswell (57:40)

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's sensible optimism. It's not irresponsible optimism. It's thinking like, there's so much more room to grow here. And I'm really excited about it.

Jeremy Thurswell (57:50)

And I think I, I, I think to a degree, like, it's a little bit like a sports team mine. In Cassandra's dynamic where she's like offense and I'm defense and not in the sense of like, you know, but it's the sense of like, okay, Cassandra's inspiring and pushing the company forward at the same time. I'm trying to figure out, like, where are the warts? Where are the broken processes? You know, ideas that no longer concepts that like, don't work in this day and age, like, where are all the old ideas that have expired their usefulness. And so I think that makes us a good team. But when we talk about like making it a 20, 30 year business, I think part of it is, is that dynamic of like, okay, like we are not just here. Like we're not just going to let a bunch of stuff break and go wrong. We're not just going to like find the hot product of today because like we're going to be out of this thing in a year or two.

Mike Beckham (59:00)

I'm. I'm curious if there are kind of touchstone memories, like a key emergency, a key event in the company's history that felt existential, that you can share.

Cassandra Thurswell (59:15)

I have one.

Jeremy Thurswell (59:15)

Go ahead.

Cassandra Thurswell (59:17)

I will. I remember during COVID we're laying in bed and we. I'm going to try and make this story as succinct as possible because it's very complicated story, but we didn't. We have had an opportunity because of our manufacturing facilities that we work with overseas to produce a lot of masks for frontline workers, millions of masks. We, we, for whatever reason, like our suppliers were capable and we were capable of bringing in a lot of support for PPE masks and cloth masks. And we're bootstrapped, we're self funded. And I remember sitting next to Jeremy in bed and he's doing a cash flow analysis. How are we going to fund all of these, all of these masks coming in when we have like all of our retail pos have been canceled. Like everything's been, everything's canceled. We really did. The, the, the purchase orders coming in are not from like our day to day business. And he is sitting there doing it and like, like sleepless nights. And I look over at him and he gets a nosebleed. He's so stressed, his nose starts to bleed. And I remember, I remember he was like, okay. And like breaking it down like week by week. After four weeks, I think we'll be okay as long as we get paid on time. And like I remember that moment and being like, I've never seen someone like so motivated but terrified at the same like, and like I just knew I needed to stay, I needed to stay really calm. I needed to stay really calm, use all my manifestation tools. Like, really. But like I remember that being. That was, that was a very scary time. That was a very scary time.

Jeremy Thurswell (61:01)

We had, we had, we had like increased the mortgage on our house and we had sold all of our public equities.

Cassandra Thurswell (61:09)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (61:10)

And this is like 10 years, 10 years into the business. And I remember in Covid, because the Majority of our sales were retail. And so like all the, you know, non essential retailers, which were a lot of the specialty retailers and beauty retailers,

Mike Beckham (61:30)

by the way, Alcohol was essential. Weed shops were essential in Oklahoma, but you can't buy hair ties. That's non essential. Yeah, crazy.

Jeremy Thurswell (61:40)

So but I, but you know, to fill in a couple pieces, like we had been doing some charitable stuff for some local hospitals, bringing like PPE masks and we had made a fabric eye mask. And like Cassandra said, we had gotten a call from one of the largest drugstores in the country saying, hey, there's going to be this shutdown. People are going to be wearing masks. This is in like March of 2020. And we're like, this is insane. I remember walking to like taking our walk to coffee. I mean like, can you imagine all these people wearing masks? And we were both like, you're like never. But you know, it like it started, it started with us and our friend Jared, who's now like our business partner and our other business, activating talent, bringing in masks for local hospitals. And then we got this call and they were like, hey, you make these eye masks. Like we need millions of units of capacity of face masks. And we were like, well, we can actually make the protective masks too because we're bringing in these protective masks. And so it's what's interesting to me is it always it like some of the best things that happened to us is when we put other people first, when we like put the healthcare workers first. And then when we were so cooperative with our retailers and said, yes, like extend out your pos, extend your payment terms like we were in, despite like taking these financial steps, like we were in a position where we could continue the business in a strong way. And this was an opportunity to take in, to get, you know, cash from our mortgage and liquidating our public equity so that we could partake in this big mask endeavor, you know, And I think we ended up selling like 70 million face masks in Covid. And then we thought no one's ever going to think of us as anything other than like a face mask brand. And people still see it because we even like brought in thermometers and it's like the scrappy thing. And people are like, I saw your, I saw the kitsch branded thermometers because remember they had like the infrared thermometers.

Mike Beckham (64:03)

That's going to be in the Smithsonian someday. It's going to be like, you know,

Jeremy Thurswell (64:07)

But I also remember we were had a conversation with our team and we said like no one. It's that saying which I'm going to butcher. But it's like, no one remembers what you did for them when times were good, but everyone remembers what you did for them during the hard times. I remember saying that to our team. And in shortly after Covid, and we had done everything we had to. Like, we donated millions of masks, gave a bunch of the profits to charity. We were really well rewarded, too. And one of the retailers that we had, like, extended the terms called me, and she was, like, crying and she was like, I'll never forget what you did for us. She's like, my parents were in Maine and they had health issues and they couldn't leave the house. And you overnight FedEx them masks. Like, we were just FedExing so many personal people masks so that they could, like, leave the house and go to work. She's like, I'll never forget what you did for us. And I just, like, I remember one of the people we had talked to who was one of our, like, top salespeople, was on that call. And it was just like a really nice kind of reminder back to, like, a year or two earlier when we had, like, kind of had that talk

Mike Beckham (65:16)

with our team, man, we had a. There was a very similar situation we had around that time. We had a team go to Seattle to meet with our Amazon team, and they're at dinner, and one of our reps is from Ukraine, and they literally walk outside of dinner, and she gets a text that Russia has invaded Ukraine. And so our team worked with her to start to. To organize some aid basically for Ukraine. But it was a similar deal where it was like, it's the right thing to do, you know, because people are people. And you better believe that impacted the way that she viewed us as people and the way that she viewed the business. It's not why you do it, but it also. It's easy to see why that leads to winning, that when you prioritize people and you treat people well, you know, like, you really shouldn't do it. Trying to chart out the course of how it's going to come back to you. But it does, you know, like, that people will remember those things forever. And I loved what you said that, like, when things are really hard, those memories get kind of. I mean, like you're saying, Cassandra, you remember looking over and Jeremy has a nosebleed. There are like, there's so much time that we live that we don't remember. And then there's these moments that just, like, stand out in our mind. Forever. And I don't know if I had a literal nosebleed. I think we all had figurative nosebleeds at some point. I had a night where I was laying in bed, and the very first time, I was like, are we going to go bankrupt? Like, it took me about a month into Covid before I had that first real thought in my mind. It was pretty terrifying. I don't think I slept that night, so I can tell. I love that story. I love the idea that you guys pivoted your business all the way into masks. You know, it's like, it's the scrappiness of, like, do what you. You have to do whatever it takes.

Sean (67:06)

Well, it also speaks like, kitsch is a brand who just has such an incredible product catalog. Like, it doesn't surprise me that you went into masks. Like, it would surprise me if Simple Modern did it, but it just, for some reason, with kitsch, it does not surprise me that you guys did that.

Mike Beckham (67:20)

I can tell you tried it. It did not go as well as it did with kitsch, I'll tell you that.

Cassandra Thurswell (67:25)

Yeah, we had a lot of scrunchie fabrics, so it was like we had easily available.

Jeremy Thurswell (67:30)

I, I mean, I think the key, like, for anyone listening or inspiring is like, one of the key things I look for in team members that I think about, it's contributed to the success of our company is like, resourcefulness. And resourcefulness isn't necessarily like, okay, we're going to make this, like, crazy idea. It's like, no, it's like, what do you have? What resources do you have at your disposal? Like, and how do you put those together into something special, into something unique, you know, and, and I, I, I think for us, it's like, that's, it's actually been really fun. And the idea of starting a business with not a lot of money is actually more of an exciting idea to me than, like, I'm more afraid to start the business with a lot of money than I am to start a business with very little money. Because I know, like, you know, necessity. What is it? Like, necessity breeds.

Sean (68:27)

Yeah.

Mike Beckham (68:28)

And I think scarcity, the phrase I use is scarcity creates focus. And it's, it's one thing to say, well, hey, you can make it work with less resources. But I think the point that you're making, which is really good to emphasize, Jeremy, is like, maybe it's more than that. Maybe scarce resources makes you better. Maybe it actually forces you to focus more and to have higher quality of thought and to execute at a higher level and you really just get better teams. I mean, you look at these companies that raise tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in VC funding and I think all of us look at that and we're like, you're kind of putting a noose around your neck, not just from like the investor expectation side, but also from the side of like, how are you going to build the kind of drive and want to in a team when they know there's eight figures in the bank account that they can burn through?

Jeremy Thurswell (69:16)

Yeah, it's like, how do you know it's working? Like the funding make it seem like it's working or like structurally, you know, and process wise, is the, is the company actually working? Is a profitable, growing company.

Mike Beckham (69:33)

So I want to talk about one of the things that I think is the most remarkable about your company. We've talked a lot about how you lead the company and who you are, but the company itself is obviously an amazing story. But I think how it got to such scale and such an amazing story is that the way that you have expanded out from initial product market fit on one product to many hero products is stands out in my mind as part of like the kitsch story. If you're writing an HBS case study on kitsch, I think that would be part of it. How have you done that so effectively? How have you gotten into so many different product verticals that have been so successful?

Cassandra Thurswell (70:15)

Such a great question and, and it's a really simple answer. We did it with our customer and like one of, one of the things we always listening. So when we started kitsch, it was the hair tie and it was a single product and we thought about. I, Jeremy always teases me that I'm always overthinking things, but then I respond with, well, I'm doing it so the customer doesn't have to. So, but, but you know, when we started the hair tie, it was a hair tie and so it had a functionality to it. It was really cute. So it has the fashion element to it. And then we packaged it in a way where it was really giftable. And, and then we always pushed all of our wholesalers or retailers to put it in a position where it was very impulsive and easy to buy. And so when we, when we started, that really worked for us because we were able to sell at any retailer. It didn't matter if it was a spa, a salon, a gift shop, a floral shop. It could be sold anywhere. And so when we started to expand our product offering, we've kept those that, that what we call the art of incrementality in mind with every single product that we created, it's like, how can we take a highly commoditized product that people reach for every single day, make it giftable, make it fashion and cute, keep it at a price point that makes it impulse and from. And encourage the retailers or whoever's selling the product to be able to like, put it near the register so that it's like so easy for them to pick up the through line with. It all was hair. So what we started with is an accessory company that is essentially a hair care company that anybody, any, most people were already using a version of this product. So it's just asking the customer to make small behavior shifts. They were already using a hair tie. Use this one. That's better for you. You're already using a pillowcase. Use this one. That's better for you. You're already using something to pull your hair back to wash your face. Use our spa headband. So it. It really was this dance with our customer and hearing what else they use in their routine and being able to provide and create essentially a lifestyle around hair care. And when we built that trust and we had them essentially be building their basket and collecting all of these items for their beauty routine, it was really easy for us to expand into shampoo and conditioner. And that was really something that nobody thought we were going to be able to do.

Mike Beckham (72:47)

I was shocked when, when I saw that. I was not expecting that. And it's just been amazing for you guys, right?

Cassandra Thurswell (72:53)

It's been incredible.

Mike Beckham (72:55)

Our top product, really category.

Jeremy Thurswell (72:57)

Yeah. We sell like over a million units a month of shampoo bars.

Mike Beckham (73:03)

It's just like consumables. It's. It's impossible to compete with the volume in consumables compared to durables. And it's like once you see it, once you hear it, you're like, oh, it makes so much sense. You, like, people trust you with their hair and then like, you, you made that transition. But also, I mean, companies really struggle to sell both consumables and durables. Why were you able to make it work in that case?

Jeremy Thurswell (73:26)

I mean, I think one thing that, like, we were able to do is we were actually able to use our, you know, breadth of skill with accessories and pair that with consumables. So we did like soap dishes and shower caddies and all sorts of kind of fun systems, ways to accessorize the consumables so then we could like bundle and sell it. And it made it much more scalable when people are like, oh, this unique product, like, oh, here's how I store it, here's how I travel with it, here's how this is a more fun way to kind of use it. But look, I mean, also, at the end of the day, like the, the version of shampoo bar that's like currently on the market is like our third or fourth version. Like, the first version we made was like, was like the Apple Iie computer version of it. And this version's like the iPhone. I mean, it's, you know, it's like, has its own trademark shape and design. It's like a completely different formula, completely different fragrance profile. I mean, that's a lot of that credit is Ghost is not my go say Cassandra. In our product team.

Mike Beckham (74:35)

It's the power of bias to action that you, you can't wait for the perfect product. You have to launch what you have and then iteratively make it better. You know, we, we talk about that internally with our company all the time, that we're pursuing excellence through iterative improvement. And you, you know, like, partially because excellence is a bar that keeps getting higher, though probably a version five of that bar, six of that bar. And like, you, you. There's a certain level of excellence that can't be unlocked until you've done something, you know, and you've gotten customer feedback. And so that's, that's really why, like, at some point you just have to get what you have out there in the world and get feedback and then view that as part of an ongoing process.

Cassandra Thurswell (75:17)

And this goes back to that private label experience that I had from the very beginning. One of, one of the most important things that I encourage our product team and really everyone at the company is what's our net promoter score? How willing for it doesn't matter the product, how willing is. Is the customer or whoever is have interacting with this product willing to recommend it to someone else. And if it's not, you know, 4.5 stars or higher, we're not doing our job and we need to go back in there. We need to fix it. And, and you know, we take a

Mike Beckham (75:50)

lot of pride in that. Yeah, I mean, you've said it. Serving the people that work for you, serving the customer, like, this is how you win. Zig Ziglar once said, you can get anything you want in life by helping other people get what they want out of life. Successful people figure out solving problems for other people, solving pain points. I'm going to do great and I'm going to know I'M making a positive impact on other people's life. That seems like a through line in everything you've said. And we haven't done this yet, this episode. So it's worth saying, like, total scale of the business. Like, give us an idea of where you're at. It's a very scaled business at this point.

Cassandra Thurswell (76:24)

Yeah, we sell a lot of stores. We don't really talk about numbers.

Sean (76:27)

How many products?

Mike Beckham (76:28)

Okay, well, I'll just say how many products are you guys in of stores? How many categories?

Cassandra Thurswell (76:32)

Yeah, we. I think. I think we're over 30,000. 30,000 retailers.

Mike Beckham (76:37)

Yeah. And the displays are awesome. I mean, you talked about this with product, but you really can command an entire shelf in a very cohesive way. I think that's one of the things I notice when I see your product is it's like, oh, it's not just that they're in a bunch of stuff, but they're in a bunch of stuff that links together. And when it's all laid out, you're like, man, that makes so much sense. And. And it's beautiful. I mean, really, My daughter's bathroom might be one of those 40,000 locations. Basically, with the amount of stuff that she has everywhere, she's. She's obsessed with the company. And that's actually where I want to go next. Is that part of what makes your story so special is, Cassandra, you are obviously a leading female entrepreneurial voice, and you've been featured in a lot of different publications. And I think there's a lot of people, like, my daughter is 11, and there are a few women that I point to, and I'm like, you can do anything. And here's some examples. You're one of the women that I would point to that I would say my daughter looks up to. What has it been like kind of holding that role of being a female, a successful female entrepreneur in what can often be a male dominated category. And what have you learned about using your voice to impact other people?

Cassandra Thurswell (78:02)

That's a great question. I would like to think I'm not your traditional female founder in a sense where I think there's a lot of pressure for female founders to get out there and tell their story and do all the panels and be forward facing and be an influencer. And I think that there's a lot. There's a lot of pressure to do that. And that's. That doesn't necessarily bring me joy. I think the awards and accolades are. I'm really honored to receive those. But I guess. I guess my hope As a, you know, a female founder is to remind women, anyone who's doing this, that success looks different for everyone. And for me, I really think my definition of success has come down to really finding self validation and that satisfaction of like me being proud of myself. And sometimes, you know, like when I do a panel or, or, or something like that, I, I get such a hangover from, from it because I get that reminder of like I have to try and tell people what I'm doing is important or good or even when I go to, you know, dinners and I have to introduce myself. I have, I have, I feel like I have this pressure to, to tell people that like, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I have, I have a reason for being here.

Mike Beckham (79:37)

Yeah.

Cassandra Thurswell (79:38)

And I think it's definitely, and I'll take full responsibility that it's self inflicted, but nobody else is asking me to do that. But it's, it's, it's, it is a pressure that I feel. But, but I do hope, I do hope when I do, when I do these things that I can just validate someone else that you can build a business just for the reason of just loving doing it and, and not have to have all of these, you know, additional pressures that, that I think women especially feel that they have to prove themselves or you know, get that external validation that they're doing a good job. And I think that that's, it's a lot, actually. It's a lot for, for I, I have a, I'm in a couple like CE female CEO communities and, and, and it's. So I, I think that there's just not a lot of, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of permission to get things wrong when you're, when, when you do have that CEO role.

Mike Beckham (80:46)

Yeah, it's, and it can be very lonely. Like you said. I think comparison is like a real thing, especially when you're in settings with other people that have businesses and like, you've got to point yourself back to like being proud internally of what you've done, not because of how it compares to other people, but because of what you've done and, and the work you've put into it. And I, I think one thing that I really wanted to touch on with the two of you because I've gotten to see it in person is that being parents has been a big part of, is, is obviously a huge part of your life. And I, I know that. I guess I'll start here. What was it like balancing going through pregnancy and early motherhood with also trying to be a CEO. That feels very daunting.

Cassandra Thurswell (81:36)

Yeah, it was, how do I say this? There are no mistakes, but I definitely learned a lot through that experience. I tried to be, I had my perfectionism definitely, like overruled happiness. And I went into a spiral of, you know, postpartum anxiety, depression, and I was trying so hard to be good at everything that I ended up just being kind of terrible at everything. So, but, but yeah, I mean, it was really, it was really complicated. J, thank, thank God I had Jeremy stepping in. And I, I, it's. Being a mom is hard enough. I think I had answered my first email 20 minutes after I gave birth.

Jeremy Thurswell (82:26)

Wow.

Cassandra Thurswell (82:26)

Like, it was really not. I'm not saying that as with a badge of honor in any way, shape or form, I don't recommend it, but, but yeah, I didn't, I don't think I planned. I, I, I, not that you can plan everything, but I wasn't expecting it to be so radical when it happened. And so when, because I really wanted to be that present mom, I want everything that I do even. We just, we just rescued these two new dogs and like, I'm so determined to help them be, you know, happy dogs and well behaved that I'm like getting up 15 minutes earlier and I was already getting up at 5am to go and take them for a walk outside. You know, it's like I, I do have this desire to like, do things the right way, and I wish I would have given myself a little more grace during that time.

Mike Beckham (83:17)

Yeah, it's funny, I, an equation that I learned years ago, but I've always loved is that growth equals grace plus truth plus time, that it's, it's wisdom plus time plus the ability to forgive yourself, and that all of those components are really necessary. And I think really driven people, we struggle with that. We struggle with the idea that forgive. Being able to forgive ourselves and others is a big part of growth and that no matter how driven you are, some of it just takes time. Like, you know what learning how, how do you learn to become a great mom? It just takes time. You know, it's like, you've got to like, it's a huge life change and I've gotten a chance to spend a little bit of time around your family. And I'm curious with, with Tula, what do you think she would say are the. Is the most important one or two things that my parents have taught me?

Cassandra Thurswell (84:09)

Eagle, Purse.

Jeremy Thurswell (84:10)

Hard work. Hard work. Determination, honesty.

Cassandra Thurswell (84:17)

I would say, I would say definitely mindset. Like when, when you think you don't want to do something, you have to like flip the switch and be like, I'm not accepting that answer. Like, I'm gonna do it anyway, you know, and that's that. Self discipline, I think is, is something that we are constantly being like, no, snap out of it. We got, we gotta move on. Like, nobody wants to do it, but we still do it anyway.

Jeremy Thurswell (84:45)

I think there's like little stuff like one of our puppies chewed up like a doll she got like when she was really, really young. And she was like kind of devastated about it. And I was like, let's, let's just be in the solution, let's grab some stuffing, let's restuff the doll and like sew it up. It took her a minute like to mentally pivot, but then she like completely engaged and just did it all herself. And she's like, is she fairly exposed

Sean (85:12)

to your, to the work you guys do? And does she watch you say, like,

Cassandra Thurswell (85:18)

she knows our employees names. She's very involved. She could be, she could definitely take on a role of HR at our company. She's great.

Mike Beckham (85:29)

You really, she's going to be amazing as an entrepreneur. Like, I feel like it's already like, you know, kind of written in the stars that, that she's going to be an amazing entrepreneur. Well, and one of the reasons I ask, we, we had our 10 year anniversary as a company recently and as I was reflecting what I said at the company is that basically the first 10 years of the company, I was a part of creating the three most important things I'll ever be a part of creating the company and my two kids, you know, and that really children are like the most entrepreneurial thing that we do. You know, it's like it's a true startup. It's like you're starting from zero and you're, you're molding this thing and, and I, I think one of the things I've taken away from the simple modern and the growth process is just like, man, I want to be a great CEO, but if I'm ever a better CEO than father or husband, then I've probably missed it. And I think that's one of the things I appreciate about the two of you is that even in the midst of all this, you've obviously continued to focus on the core family relationships.

Jeremy Thurswell (86:26)

A lot of those skills are transferable.

Cassandra Thurswell (86:28)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (86:29)

Like, I think some people think like the skills to be a great CEO are opposite, to be a Great. Husband or father or wife, mother. And I think sometimes I think about it as like, you know, the same skills I learn managing people I need to use to manage my daughter. And a lot of the skills I learned to manage my daughter I should be using to manage people. At our company,

Mike Beckham (86:57)

we have what we call the Titan 10. We kind of end all of these interviews with 10 kind of rapid fire questions. So I'm going to hit you guys with them. You can both answer, you can ping pong back and forth, whatever you want to do. So here we go. First question. You get a desert iron, you're on a desert island, and you get a dashboard to measure and manage the business. What are the three metrics you want on that dashboard for?

Jeremy Thurswell (87:24)

You go first.

Cassandra Thurswell (87:25)

Okay. Mine are net promoter score POS reports and gross margin.

Jeremy Thurswell (87:37)

Mine would be cash flow statement, inventory report, and north Beam roas.

Mike Beckham (87:45)

What a great partnership. Look at that. No overlap in your dashboard. This is what it looks like to complement each other. Okay. You also get to take a book or a resource, but it can't be about business. It's just something that is for you. What would it be?

Cassandra Thurswell (88:02)

Mine is Esther and Jerry Hicks.

Jeremy Thurswell (88:05)

Law of Attraction.

Sean (88:06)

So good.

Jeremy Thurswell (88:09)

Mike, I bought you this book. You did buy me this by Sermon on the Mount would be mine.

Mike Beckham (88:17)

Yeah, we had a great conversation about it actually, in Palm Springs. Okay. What's one contrarian belief about business that other people think you're crazy for

Cassandra Thurswell (88:31)

universe?

Jeremy Thurswell (88:33)

Yeah, but I mean. Yeah, I mean, not. Not having a plan. I think sometimes not having a plan is a good thing. Think.

Cassandra Thurswell (88:43)

I actually really want to agree with that. I'm. That's, that's. That's one that I completely. I'm so aligned with it. But I will add another one just so we have two. I think one of the things that people think is just so crazy that I say is like, you don't have to be out there networking all the time. You just don't have to. You don't have to do all the podcasts and go to all the dinners and do all that to be. To be successful.

Mike Beckham (89:07)

Absolutely. Okay. What's the most. Single most important word in leadership? I'll go.

Jeremy Thurswell (89:16)

You want to go for it? Empathy.

Cassandra Thurswell (89:19)

I might. It's two words. Emotional regulation.

Mike Beckham (89:26)

What's the single most important word in business?

Cassandra Thurswell (89:31)

Resiliency.

Jeremy Thurswell (89:35)

Resourcefulness.

Mike Beckham (89:39)

What's the best meal of the day and why breakfast.

Cassandra Thurswell (89:44)

Why we get to spend it together. We spend breakfast together every day.

Jeremy Thurswell (89:49)

I'll echo that.

Mike Beckham (89:51)

Love it right now. What's the most overrated growth tactic Earn media value.

Cassandra Thurswell (90:02)

Every time I see what I'm like,

Mike Beckham (90:06)

PR agency are so good.

Cassandra Thurswell (90:12)

I'm like, whatever, guys. If it's not. If it's not generating, I'm. It means nothing to me.

Mike Beckham (90:17)

Growth vanity metrics. Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (90:20)

Jeremy, I mean, look, I, I mean, maybe this is like a little bit of a hot take. I'm not a big. I'm not a big LTV person.

Mike Beckham (90:29)

Well, I think in your business, it's like, how in the world could you think about ltv? Because the products are expanding. It's like, it's.

Jeremy Thurswell (90:37)

It's also like, you buy here, you buy there, you buy there, you buy there.

Mike Beckham (90:41)

There's no way to track it. Yes. When you get omnichannel, that totally makes sense in calculate. Okay. What do you think's the most underrated tactic?

Cassandra Thurswell (90:51)

Net promoter score. I don't think people ask enough. They don't. They're not. They don't want to look at it. I don't know if you're more focused

Mike Beckham (90:59)

on roas than Net promoter score.

Jeremy Thurswell (91:01)

I don't know.

Mike Beckham (91:01)

Jeremy.

Cassandra Thurswell (91:02)

Yeah.

Jeremy Thurswell (91:05)

What's. What's the most underrated tactic?

Mike Beckham (91:08)

Underrated?

Cassandra Thurswell (91:09)

Yeah.

Mike Beckham (91:09)

Like. Yeah, underrated tactic.

Jeremy Thurswell (91:13)

Channel diversity.

Mike Beckham (91:16)

Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Thurswell (91:18)

Early adopter. Like people who got in early to TikTok shops are printing.

Mike Beckham (91:24)

Yeah. By the time I guess in some ways,

Jeremy Thurswell (91:28)

oh, TikTok's gonna be shut down. It's just not real brands. Isn't that like number one brand? Number one brand on beauty, on Amazon are one of the top brands of beauty. Amazon was like crushing TikTok shop crushing everywhere.

Mike Beckham (91:41)

Well, that, that makes sense. By the time some. Everybody knows about something, then it's it that usually the alpha is all gone. So I'll tell you what. We're. We're kind of at the end here, but I want to do a little section of just. What else would you say? Is there anything else I could ask you about or that you'd want to say that we didn't cover already? I'll ask you one. I'll ask you a question. You guys let me know if another one pops in mind. If you could go back in time and redo the journey, just change one thing. And I know you're grateful for what you have. You're not spending a lot of life looking in the rear view. But with everything you've learned, if you could go back and you could do one thing differently, what would it be?

Jeremy Thurswell (92:32)

I don't mind. I mean, Cassandra talked about it like, and she's very nice about us when we had our daughter. But, like, I had no idea how to be a dad. And I had no idea, like, how to be a supportive husband to a woman, you know, giving birth. Like, I wish, I wish I had learned more about how to be more empathetic, how to understand more about what someone who gives birth is going through and, you know, postpartum and all that.

Mike Beckham (93:02)

And if you could, if you could go back and talk to Jeremy, you know, the day you find out you're going to be a dad, what would you tell him to do in order to prepare himself to be that kind of husband and father?

Jeremy Thurswell (93:15)

Like, be more open minded about what your partner is going through and, like, do the research, do the work to learn about it.

Mike Beckham (93:27)

My biggest thing from my marriage is we went through a miscarriage and I totally screwed up how I handled that. It's my biggest regret of my entire marriage that I was not there for my wife through that miscarriage the way that I wanted to be. And I wish so badly I could go back and do it again. And you know, what I did is I threw myself into work because I didn't know what to do. And you know, when you're the guy, like, you get a couple weeks out and you're like, well, that sucked. But, you know, life goes on. And you don't realize that it doesn't work that way for somebody who's, who's had, you know, a baby growing inside of them. And. And so, like, I can really relate with that.

Jeremy Thurswell (94:01)

Yeah, I did the same thing. Like, threw myself into work and threw myself into, like, Home Improvement. And Cassandra would be like, in the house trying to, like, get our daughter to, like, latch and breastfeed or changing diapers. And I was like, I'm going to go re plumb the house.

Mike Beckham (94:18)

I want to go serve you by fixing the sink in the guest bathroom.

Jeremy Thurswell (94:22)

It's like, like, not like, I'm gonna build a new railing in my balcony. Not the best idea. Like, just sit. Even if you don't know what to do, just like, sit with them.

Sean (94:32)

I, I got a, I got a question for Cassandra.

Mike Beckham (94:34)

I'm.

Sean (94:35)

I like to ask this in every one of these. It's a flip of a common question. Your. If your younger version of you was sitting in front of you right now, what advice would they give to you?

Cassandra Thurswell (94:48)

I think my younger self wouldn't say anything to me necessarily, but that my younger self would give me a hug. It would, it would. My younger self would just give me a hug and just tell me how proud they were. Of me and that I just, I just kept going and I kept doing the work and I kept showing up and, and like, and like just, just my. Just really congratulate me on, on just staying the course and, and, and also just and, and being willing to change. Like, I'm so proud of you for like, like, like being, being willing to be a different person and for better. I think that's what my younger self. That conversation we would probably have would be.

Jeremy Thurswell (95:36)

I love that

Cassandra Thurswell (95:38)

I'm a physical person.

Mike Beckham (95:42)

Well, hey, thanks for joining us. Congratulations on all your success. But really honestly, more congratulations on winning in life. The things that matter. Like I think the regret minimization framework ideas are really powerful. One that when we look back on our life at 85, what are the things we're going to be proud of? What are the things we're going to regret? And I see the two of you doing really well in the areas of life that really matter in the long run. So it's been great having you share your perspective with us today.

Cassandra Thurswell (96:12)

Thank you.

Mike Beckham (96:13)

Yeah, that was great, guys. So good.