E085: AppLovin and TV ads

Summary

OPERATORS Podcast Episode E085: AppLovin and TV Ads

Release Date: December 4, 2024

In Episode E085 of the OPERATORS podcast, hosts Sean, Matt, and Jason are joined by their esteemed guest, Katie from Kaiden Lane. The episode delves deep into the intricacies of modern marketing channels, focusing primarily on AppLovin and Television Advertising. The conversation is rich with insights, practical experiences, and strategic discussions that are invaluable for eCommerce professionals seeking to optimize their advertising efforts.

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1. ERP Systems Challenges

The episode begins with a candid discussion about the complexities of implementing and managing Enterprise Resource Planning (ERP) systems.

• Katie's Insights:

  • Katie emphasizes the difficulties in ERP integration, particularly highlighting her own struggles with Simple Modern: "It's so incredibly painful when we finally did it with Simple Modern. Usually, the integrations on these things are just an absolute bear." (01:09)
  • She underscores the variability in contractor quality when dealing with ERP ecosystems: "We hired a contractor and got integrations that sucked, forcing us to redo them internally over the last couple of years." (03:23)

• Sean's Perspective:

  • Sean humorously likens ERPs to telecommunications providers, suggesting that they are inherently designed to manage dissatisfaction: "ERP is like telcos, they're in the business of managing dissatisfaction because they're so difficult to use." (03:35)

• Matt's Rating of NetSuite:

  • Both Matt and Katie critique NetSuite, giving it a low score due to its complexity and reliance on external contractors: "It's really hard to get above probably the high threes." (02:30)

2. Staffing Strategies with Temp Agencies

The conversation shifts to staffing strategies, particularly the use of temporary agencies in managing workforce needs.

• Jason's Experience:

  • Jason shares his innovative approach to staffing in the warehouse: "We use a temp agency... if they're complete duds, we just send them home." (05:21)
  • He highlights the cost-effectiveness of this method compared to traditional hiring and counseling: "It comes out cheaper than hiring and counseling and writing." (05:21)

• Matt and Jason Discuss Quality:

  • Matt praises Jason's method, noting the reduced personnel issues: "Nobody shows up to my office with a staff. I mean, we still have people problems." (05:49)
  • They debate the balance between quality and cost, with Matt noting a premium pay rate to attract more competent workers: "We pay like 4 bucks more an hour... you wind up getting much more competent people for a marginal cost increase." (09:45)

3. AppLovin as a New Marketing Channel

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring AppLovin as an emerging advertising platform in the eCommerce space.

• Sean's Introduction to AppLovin:

  • Sean clarifies his relationship with AppLovin, distancing from affiliate motivations: "I have not made any money talking about AppLovin... this is non-monitized by those guys." (12:03)
  • He provides an overview of AppLovin's business model and its expansion beyond mobile games: "They're an ad network that traditionally, their ad space has been mobile games... but they've shifted really hard towards attribution and driving revenue." (14:20)

• Comparing AppLovin and Meta:

  • The hosts discuss how AppLovin's CPMs compare favorably to Meta's, offering competitive Return on Ad Spend (ROAS) at a fraction of the cost: "We're getting as much last click ROAS with Meta... about 1/5 of the spend." (15:17)
  • They speculate on the sustainability of AppLovin's performance amidst increasing adoption: "Is it gonna last? Nobody knows. It's kind of a gold rush right now." (15:47)

• Audience Reach and Ad Engagement:

  • Sean notes that AppLovin reaches a vast daily user base (140 million), rivaling major platforms like TikTok and Snapchat: "They have 140 million daily users... as big as TikTok or Snapchat." (16:14)
  • Jason points out the engagement level, where users are compelled to watch full-length ads, unlike the brief attention spans on Meta: "They have to watch for like 20 or 30 seconds." (16:58)

4. Television Advertising Using Tatari

The discussion transitions to Television Advertising, focusing on Tatari as a strategic partner.

• Sean's Experience with Tatari:

  • Sean shares his long-term relationship with Tatari, praising their integrity and support: "Tatari actually good people to do business with... they gave me back $400,000." (36:27)
  • He elaborates on the flexibility of remnant buys, allowing for cost-effective ad placements during extra innings in sports events: "Just try to buy extra innings... optimize for the cheapest cost per view." (48:58)

• Jason's Journey into TV Ads:

  • Jason recounts his initial hesitations and subsequent successes with TV advertising: "We ran our first ads, thought they were great... switched to a direct response approach and doubled performance overnight." (35:04)
  • He emphasizes the importance of creative optimization and the impact of voiceovers on ad performance: "We switched over our commercials... it improved performance. It doubled it overnight just with our freaking voiceover." (38:16)

• Best Practices and Insights:

  • The hosts discuss the nuances of TV ad buying, stressing the need for interest-based targeting over broad segmentation: "It's interest-based targeting... you want, you want the best last click ROAS as possible or as many new customers in the door at the cheapest price?" (46:25)
  • They highlight the trust factor associated with TV ads, as consumers often perceive televised advertisements as more legitimate: "You're paying attention on TV, you figure they're legit because they're on TV." (45:07)

5. Holiday Marketing Strategies

A considerable focus is placed on holiday marketing, particularly leveraging the Q5 window around Christmas.

• Sean's Q5 Strategy:

  • Sean introduces the concept of Q5, a prime sales window from the week of Christmas to early January: "Between today and the end of the year, we have to do $70 million. So it's good luck, everybody." (52:15)
  • He shares the massive revenue spikes experienced during this period: "On the last day of shipping cutoff, we probably do $2 million or whatever. It's a huge revenue driver." (52:15)

• Katie and Matt's Approaches:

  • Katie discusses the early launch of holiday sales to maximize visibility: "We did early holiday sale in October... Your cutoff is the latest Black Friday could ever be." (56:43)
  • Matt reflects on inventory management during peak seasons: "We're trying to get ahead of what we think we're going to sell. We pre-make our best sellers while we have capacity." (54:36)

• Adapting to External Factors:

  • The hosts talk about external events like Chinese New Year impacting holiday strategies: "Chinese New Year starts two weeks earlier than it ever has... it's a crazy time to be in eCommerce." (57:15)
  • They also touch upon consumer behavior shifts due to events like elections: "We had a killer day the day before the election... Post-election saw a huge pickup." (58:09)

6. Closing Remarks and Insights

As the episode draws to a close, the hosts reflect on the day's discussions and share personal anecdotes that underline the importance of team dynamics and company culture.

• Team Respect and Leadership:

  • Sean shares his leadership style, blending respect with authority: "I told everybody, I'm not your fucking dad. Figure it out." (62:11)
  • Jason and Matt commend Sean's ability to earn team respect through hands-on involvement: "I think your team probably really respected you for doing that." (62:15)

• Final Takeaways:

  • The episode emphasizes the diversity of marketing channels and the necessity to experiment and optimize: "Use AppLovin and TV to reach new audiences while maintaining strong performance on Meta."
  • The hosts encourage listeners to leverage new platforms like AppLovin and to integrate traditional channels like TV advertising for a holistic marketing strategy.

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Notable Quotes:

• "ERP is like telcos, they're in the business of managing dissatisfaction because they're so difficult to use." — Matt (03:35)
• "We're getting as much last click ROAS with Meta... about 1/5 of the spend." — Sean (15:17)
• "They have to watch for like 20 or 30 seconds." — Jason (16:58)
• "We pay like 4 bucks more an hour... you wind up getting much more competent people for a marginal cost increase." — Matt (09:45)
• "I have to deal with, with Katie. So we go over here..." — Matt (08:31)
• "They treat that like remnant." — Jason (49:13)

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Conclusion:

Episode E085 of the OPERATORS podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of both digital and traditional advertising channels, providing listeners with actionable insights into leveraging AppLovin and Television Advertising to drive eCommerce success. The candid discussions around ERP challenges, staffing strategies, and holiday marketing further enrich the episode, making it a must-listen for professionals aiming to navigate the complex landscape of modern marketing.

Transcript

[Sean]

Welcome to the operators podcast episode 84. We have Katie from Kaiden Lane, an old friend, a long time confidant, protector of all things E Comm. She says what she says and you cannot control what comes out of her mouth. We talk app loving, we talk tv, we talk a little bit of holiday. Dude, Katie's the best. She can replace any one of us anytime. We love having her here. Nobody's tougher, nobody's like harder to win over. But nobody will defend you like Katie. So thank you for being here, Katie. Thank you for listening. Thank. They need to fulfill North Beam Postscript. I use all three of those softwares. And you know what? Katie does too. If you want to be like her, use those. Check out Applovin, check out Atari. Try new ad channels every once in a while. This is non monetized by those guys, but we are monetized by Phil number one erp. It's a four star rating which is the highest score an ERP could ever get. Postscript Northbeam. I love you guys. Talk to you later. Goodbye.

[Matt]

It's so easy to talk about like how hard it is to, to build like proper erp.

[Katie]

It's, it's such a conundrum too because usually implementing an ERP is so difficult. We're starting a new, you know, vertical. And as we're starting it, one of the questions we're asking at the beginning actually is when do we need to integrate with an erp? When do we need to start thinking this way? Because it was so incredibly painful when we finally did it with simple modern. And so usually the integrations on these things are just an absolute bear because like you said, math, Matt, it's just a, it's just a mess usually.

[Matt]

Well, it's also the funny thing is there's been multiple times in our business history where we actually weigh the decision to do something based on the level of difficulty to make it work with existing integrations.

[Katie]

That's where it's really frustrating when accounting is stopping you from selling things.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Katie]

And those are the things that'll just drive you crazy.

[Matt]

As an entrepreneur, I've like, I have literally lost my. Because of this type of stuff. I'm like, we're sorry, we're not doing it for what reason? It's like, oh, it's because integrations is going to take forever. This is why I don't want to own a company anymore.

[Sean]

Yeah. So what do you guys think the highest score you could give to a netsuite is? I think both of you guys are on NetSuite. What, what's the highest score you could possibly give them? 1 to 5.

[Matt]

1 to 5?

[Katie]

It's really hard to get above probably the high threes, three point something. The, the other problem with it, Sean, is that like you can't just implement NetSuite. Usually you have to go and get all of these extra contractors. This is entire ecosystem of people around NetSuite just to help build integrations. And the problem with that is that the mileage really varies there and the quality level really varies there. That was actually where we had some of our problem is that we hired a contractor and we spent a whole bunch of money. They were supposed to be building integrations only for us to get integrations that sucked. Where we had to go back and redo them ourselves internally over the last couple years. So it's not even just the netsuite thing. Although like I'm not like going to give it a, you know, a five out of five or anything, but it's also, it's so complicated and you need so many other contractors that, that, that really drags down the score as well.

[Matt]

I think it's like a, I think it's. ERP is like telcos, Sean. Like they're basically in the business of managing dissatisfaction because they're all so difficult to use.

[Sean]

Yeah. Like so famously what Matt's referencing is that Comcast has like, like 10% of people like Comcast, yet it's a hundred billion dollar a year business. Right. It's because like, it's like it just.

[Matt]

Nobody likes their telco provider. Like what was like when was the last time? You're like, man, I love AT&T. What a great day to be on AT&T.

[Sean]

Right.

[Matt]

So said nobody.

[Sean]

So I, we just released Sean's vendor list where I give one to five scores to everyone that we currently engage with fulfill my ERP of choice. I give them a 4 out of 5 stars and they were like, you know, if you, if you do not know about ERPs, maybe, maybe that you'd be bummed out by getting a four out of five stars.

[Matt]

That's an incredible score.

[Sean]

Yeah, I think the theoretical limit for an ERP should be a 3. No, nobody is happy with it. It is like going to the dentist. That's, that's what I, that's the, it's like even, even if you have the best dentists on earth, even if they're so kind and so sweet, they're still going to put a drill in your mouth. Like that is that, is that is the ERP business. So if you're looking for a 4 out of 5 ERP, which if you grade on a curve is like a 1 billion out of 10 ERP check alphafil.

[Jason]

You know what we're trying new right now is we actually got a temp agency and this is the first time for us to do it. And we're just doing it in warehouse. So, like, com. You know, skill set expectations are very low. We're supposed to be able to put them in a position and they catch on, like, right away. And the best part is, is if they're complete duds, we just send them home. So there's no writing ups. There's no, like, following after the pay is a little bit more. But honestly, it comes out cheaper than us, like hiring and counseling and writing.

[Matt]

Up fully loaded costs.

[Jason]

And since we know it's going to be temporary and like just through like December 10th or 13th, we're doing that. And it's kind of a cool system. You, like, build your pool of employees and then you rank them. And so you always have this, like, pool of like, ours is about 10 to 20 employees. And so each day we've been doing it for about two weeks, and each day we bring in like, two or three that we already liked, and then we try two or three new ones. So we're building out this, like, pool. Right.

[Matt]

We do something similar with our Costco roadshow business. Katie.

[Jason]

We.

[Matt]

Yeah, because we. It's like, it's so hard to do what Jason does. Like, it took him. It took him years, right. To staff up to like, a full army of roadshow sales reps. So you have to use these temporary agencies that, like, staff for you.

[Jason]

Oh, it's for road shows. Yeah, but those people have to, like, sell and perform.

[Matt]

They do, yes. So, like, when you get it, there's no in between. So, like, I have on a scale of 1 to 10, there's. There's tens or negative sevens. Yeah, right. Like, there's nothing in the middle. With this type of staffing, like, we either get personal like, oh my gosh, I'd love to hire this person full time, or they're not even showing up to work. Like, they just don't even. They can't find the building.

[Jason]

We had somebody pull up in one of the temps and all of their windows had been smashed out with, like, a baseball bat. We kept them. They were okay. They met the quota every day, and so we kept them. Now they just park in the back.

[Sean]

You know, you. You run a three pl, like In a, like, is it a C market? Like you're outside of San Antonio, but like pretty far. Who, who are the people working there? Like college kids or moms?

[Jason]

No, not college kids. So I mean, because we're office and fulfillment all in the same building, so. And that's two different kind of hires for the most part. Right. Like, especially in receiving and shipping and things like that. Super easy to hire in like our office, customer service, marketing, that kind of stuff. And we have the best team. Most of them, if not all, are moms or soon to be moms. The warehouse is a little bit harder. We're out in the hill country and it's a very affluent area, so. So we don't have like a lot of the, you know, ins and outs of people. Right. Like this. You kind of move out here to live on a ranch and, and so we have a wide variety. Honestly, it's a little bit of everything, but we get a lot of people from like Chili's or Chick Fil A or that kind of stuff where, you know, our pay is the same if not better. And we're not just. I think our like, work environment's a little bit nicer. Like our, our warehouse is air conditioned. Yeah, right.

[Sean]

Well, dude, in Texas it's got to be. People are gonna die.

[Jason]

We almost did die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. That's in Texas. That's why I put my sweater on today. And I was like, only in Texas do you put on a sweater that has short sleeves. Like that's how we pretend like it's all here.

[Matt]

So I gotta, I got one for you, Katie. I was at my buddy's house last night. We went out for a hike with the families and then went back to their place. They also have one kid.

[Jason]

So like, oh, they're like, made dinner for them and yeah, they came home.

[Matt]

We, we go over there.

[Jason]

Tell me, Matt, how hard was your day?

[Matt]

No, so good. It was a great day, Sean. This is the. I gotta deal with, with Katie. So we, we go over here and it turns out. So like one of the, one of the. Another couple comes over and their son works for me in our warehouse.

[Jason]

Oh, that could be a good or bad thing, right?

[Matt]

Well, and he's like, you know, he really likes the job. And I'm like. I looked at my buddy and I'm like, we, we pay well, right? Like, is it okay? You know? Cause it's like it's his kid, 21 year old son, and he's like, oh no, he's so happy. He's like, dude, you guys are great employers in town. He's like, this guy, he's 21, he's dumb as shit. He's never going to get a job anywhere. This is the guy's bother talking.

[Jason]

You've got him doing cycle counts on inventory. Like, he's using his degree right now. It's amazing.

[Matt]

Yeah, he's like, no, no, no, he's. He's young and stupid. Like, he still needs to learn how to be smart. Like, he's too.

[Sean]

He's.

[Matt]

He's too young. But the, the competitive advantage that we have with talent is just. We pay like 4 bucks more an hour than. Than like Costco down the road. And, you know, you wind up getting much more competent people for, like, marginal cost increase. So your temp thing that you're.

[Jason]

It's.

[Matt]

It works out in the wash. Like, we deal with a lot less people problems.

[Jason]

I.

[Matt]

Nobody shows up to my office with a staff.

[Jason]

I mean, we still have people problems. I can't lie. And we actually right now are doing like an evening shift and Saturdays with high schoolers. That's our first time to do that. So we're doing temps, high schoolers, like, the whole thing. We're just trying to pad ourselves, Right. So that when we need the volume, they're kind of trained. And the high schoolers have been really great, to be honest. I mean, they're. Oh, yeah, some of them are. They all just like you explained, Some of. They all say it's like the most fun thing ever. They've, you know, using the little finger scanner at, like, our shipping stations, and they scan things. It comes up, they think that is, like, so cool. But there's a lot we kind of have to get through. Like when we first bring them on, there's a lot of, like, well, my mom said she needs me home by number. Nope, that's not how that works. So once you like, kind of. But it's good for them to learn too, right? Like, no, this. If you want this job, if you want to come back the next day, then that's not how it works. Like, just because your mom said so, you've got like.

[Matt]

Katie, I. You have. The competitive advantage is that you've got good mom tone.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like, you.

[Jason]

Oh, you think I'm in there giving him that?

[Matt]

No, no, no. I just think, like, it permeates. My guess is that the mom tone permeates through the company. Like, Sean and I have asshole tone.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And I don't think that it's like the best, you know, top down cultural communities.

[Jason]

I mean, you're right. If people aren't hitting their goals, we go behind them and we dig our fingers into the back of their like arms or we grab their ears and.

[Sean]

Dude, I have so much more fun doing the, doing the episode when Katie's here, man. Katie, you gotta, we gotta replace one of the guys. Get you on here.

[Matt]

That's it. Somebody's fired.

[Sean]

What are you guys paying per, Per hourly warehouse employee. So in Canada, in real money, how much is that, Matt?

[Matt]

20. 20 bucks an hour.

[Sean]

Canadian.

[Matt]

No. U.S. yeah.

[Jason]

Okay, that is pretty good. We start at 16, we're in Texas and you know, it's. Everything is cheaper here. It just is.

[Matt]

Yeah, everything's more expensive here.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Dude, the best hack ever is. Yeah, like Katie, you said it. Taking people from a Chick Fil A or a Chili's, like, or retail stores, right? Like if you're, if you're at Chili's, you're probably getting tips. That's pretty hard to comp. But like, if you're just working at like a Target, like you don't. You make nine bucks an hour, right? And there's no.

[Jason]

And they have happy hours and there's no guarantee, right. Like they're working shifts. And I think if you can like offer them basically, you know, a set schedule that they can plan around, that's a perk. Yeah, that was your gonna say, John.

[Sean]

Not having to deal with the public, you know, like.

[Jason]

Oh yeah, that too.

[Sean]

Yeah. You have like co workers, there's other people walking in stealing shit. So that's, that's definitely a good hack. But we're not here to talk warehouses, Katie. We're here to talk about marketing channels.

[Jason]

And the new, you know, magic thing which you held away from me like you didn't even tell me about it. I had to discover this, this new way of reaching millions of people all by myself.

[Sean]

Okay, well here I'm gonna set the record straight. I have not made any money talking about Applovin. There's a lot of people out there shilling Applovin for commissions or whatever else. We test a lot of different channels. It looks really good off the rip. They gave us like $50,000 in ad credit in September. We tested it in October. It was totally fine. It's working right now. And then there's just been a wall of people talking about Applovin jumping over to Applovin. So we have to talk about it. I have some theories going on, but Katie, you love it. You're a big fan of Applovin.

[Jason]

I am. And do you want to know why there's like, viral people? Because I actually, I talked to Kathy today, and I don't know who yalls rep is, but I just talked to Kathy. You did? Okay, well, so. And she's amazing, but my rep for Applovin, I have never met a rep that has so much energy and so much passion. And so, like, I literally feel like he. He. He'll slack me at, like, Saturday on this at 7pm Raphael. Don't know him.

[Sean]

Oh, I'm checking. I'm checking my guy right now. He's in slack.

[Jason]

Okay, well, you. If he's amazing. But anyways, she. Kathy told me earlier today that, like, this is. They're not brand new. They came around in April, emailing all of us. Right? Hey, this is our program. Like, do you want to advertise on it? We reach this many people. This is how big we are. And everybody in E commerce was like, what, advertising on apps? Like gaming? No. Like, our customer is not on Call of Duty. What are you talking about? Right? It's not Call of Duty. Right. This is like the Candy Crushes and the, you know, word scrambles. And admittedly, I'm not even on it. Are y'all gamers? Like, no.

[Sean]

No.

[Matt]

Okay, what's that?

[Jason]

I. I picture the people, like, you know when you're on an airplane and, like, you look at the aisle next to you and they're playing on their phone, and I'm always like, man, they have a lot of free time.

[Sean]

Totally.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So my reps also Raphael and for everyone. Yeah, for everyone not familiar. Applovin is a publicly traded company. As of today, they're worth like $90 billion or something. So they're worth like, half of what Uber's worth or as much as Airbnb. It is a ad network that traditionally, their ad space has been mobile games. So when you play Candy Crush or you play Bejeweled or whatever, balloons, any of those games, and, like, you have to watch ads every minute or two minutes, and there's like, you get credit or jams, all shit. They power all of that. And they've traditionally only had other mobile game sponsors them or like, the worst of the ad clients, the Taboolas of.

[Jason]

The world, they made it on their platform. They advertise on all the platforms. Right? Like, that's how it's different.

[Sean]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. They're. They're like an exchange, kind of like trade desk. Yeah, trade desk. Right. The big thing is they've shifted really hard towards attribution and actually like driving revenue. And it is right now performing. I think I've sent some screenshots to you guys. If not I will as good as Meta at about 1/5 of the spend. So we're getting as much, you know, last click row as we're getting with meta. About like 1/5 a clip. Is it gonna last? Nobody knows. It's kind of a gold rush right now. Everybody's rushing in.

[Matt]

The answer is no.

[Jason]

Oh, stop it. It's not bad attitude out of here.

[Matt]

You guys have been around a long time. Don't.

[Jason]

I am here to say that. Do you. Do you know how much new customers it's driving for us right now?

[Sean]

I.

[Matt]

Why you sent us the number. It's. It's high.

[Jason]

It's unbelievable. Like if that they have 140 million daily users on all of their different gaming. That's. That's not tiny, guys. That's bigger than TikTok, right?

[Sean]

Oh yeah, it's. It's as big as TikTok is or Snapchat or, you know, anything else. Right. Like as big as Twitter. So what I think's happening. Cause like it's. It's been a revenue boom for a lot of different brands. And like I like this is. People have heard about this by the time this podcast comes out. I think it is a big group of people who are used to the worst ads ever. Right. You're playing your game and it's the ug. You typically get like scammy mobile ads showing up. Right. So for some different game. And now they're getting beautiful Caden Lane ads. You know what I mean? A lot of it's it over indexes into a female audience, a little bit older audience, and they're getting awesome ridgy ads, like best in class meta ads. And so like, of course everybody's converting. It's like people like good ads. Right?

[Jason]

Well, and it makes them watch it. Like they have to watch because. Right. The whole thing about like Meta and Facebook and Instagram is they just scroll past it and we obsess over those first three seconds of like getting them to stop and pay attention. Here we. They have to pay attention for like 20 or 30 seconds.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Right. Like they can't if they die on their favorite game. They have to watch their ad on.

[Matt]

A bridge between a Facebook ad and what television used to be.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Before you could record and skip or before streaming, whatever. And you could pay to just not see them. No, I think my, My comment is just there's A lot. You know, let's just define a lot. They have hundreds of consumer brands testing the platform right now. And in Facebook land, we're up against 7 million advertisers. So, like, it's a volume difference of, like, input. So my only thing is, like, the CPM math is going to have to change here.

[Jason]

Yeah, well, but do you think it's affected like their other. I mean, I know the, the brand's testing it and they're still in beta. It's still very brand new, but I bet we are just a blip on the radar. I doubt we've affected anybody.

[Matt]

I don't know how they segment, you know, audience on there. Like, are we in a different pool than the, the app download people? Like, I don't know.

[Sean]

Okay, so here's, here's, here's what I've been told behind the scenes, right? I've talked, I've talked to Katie. I've sent her 100 brands, so I'm not getting any money out of it, but she's at least talking to me about it. They have like, they rolled out their advanced shopping, like actual, like trying to drive revenue, Pixel Match back, whatever, like four months ago. I think if you tested it in April, it sucked. And like, they, they rolled it out slowly starting in September, so they actually have a good ad engine for the first time. That's why people are jumping and actually converting their revenue isn't all that big. I mean, I don't remember exactly. I thought it was a billion dollars last quarter, but like.

[Jason]

Well, actually, yeah, pennies. Just pennies.

[Sean]

Well, yeah, you know, there. It's bigger than Snapchat's revenue, but they're worth a ton of money. It's just growing really fast. So I think we are actually going to make a meaningful shift in advertising. Like, I might spend $1 million there in November, right? Like, Katie, you might spend a million dollars there in November. So, yeah, when you're talking about a billion a quarter, this is actually a lot of revenue popping in the system. The shocking thing is their CPMs are so expensive. Like, we thought it was going to be a cheap CPM platform. Like, you know, Snapchat is when you just go for views or clicks. Dude, the CPMs are the same as meta for us now. Our better CPMs are lower because it's like a male first audience. Who cares? But it's like 10 to 12 bucks, right? It's the same CPM on Applovin. The difference is it is locked in. There's less CPMs per minute because you have to watch the full 30 second AD. So, yeah, all that to say is I think it's going to have a massive revenue growth from E Comm. They've built the ad engine to actually work. And CPMs aren't cheap. Like, CPMs are expensive, so people are actually buying shit.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, but new audience. I mean, that there's a lot of value in that. Like, what if, you know, even 80% of the people on. On these apps, on these gaming apps are people that are not on social media?

[Sean]

Totally.

[Jason]

I mean, right, because. Because the next thing we're talking about is linear, which I actually think same. Right. Like, how do we. How do we reach these people that aren't on the social media apps that were, I don't know, like, so invested in.

[Sean]

Dude. The reason why I love this episode is because it is the newest channel, which is Applovin. People getting excited about this and then the oldest channel, Linear tv.

[Jason]

So we should talk about like. Yeah, print mail too, and catalogs.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Just a quick Fact check. AppLovint Q3 revenue was $1.2 billion. Their net income was 434 million. So they're an incredibly profitable company. Revenue was up 40% year over year. So that's like where, like the big, you know, stock price jump came from. But you have to think that, like, you. I introduced Reformation to them. We have Mirror with Organics getting started. Like all you guys that could. Yeah, like, that's cute.

[Jason]

Yeah. No, Matt, he forgot to tell you and me. Yeah, he told a hundred other brands that all got on right away. And then here come us, like, whoa. I'm texting the group, like, oh, have y'all heard about this?

[Sean]

Look, I'll. I'll. I'll be better. I've had a. I've had a hard. A hard Q4. But. But look, what I'm trying to say is I. I still think We've just added 300 million in spend going into the platform, but it's one of those things where I think the CPMs won't go up faster than the ad engine gets better. Like if Reformation starts getting purchases in there. Right. That's just shared learnings. It'll go back to help Caden Lane or peel a case or whatever else.

[Matt]

So, yeah, I think that's just a good counter argument to my point, Sean, is that we're still early days in platform. Platform will evolve. I got so far, I'm super impressed with the team. They seem savvy. They're lean as hell. Too. Like, when you look at their, that net income, like the, their team is not massive. Like, this is not a bloated company. Right. It's like they just got all the markings of like, this is an efficient machine.

[Jason]

I think she told me they have like 20 engineers. That's it.

[Sean]

Yeah, that's if that's true.

[Jason]

Yeah. And they're running out like new updates about every two weeks. But the one thing I'm really excited about is I think that the, the way that they're learning with their search engine and they're like algorithm how they're going to serve ads is going to be different than the way that Meta does. Like, we all know if you click on an ad on Meta, you know you're going to get served that same company's ads, like over and over and over and over and over again. And then maybe two other brands that are relative to that one brand, but you don't see the whole wide variety that you used to. Would y'all agree with that? Like, no.

[Sean]

I definitely think that Meta's superpower is knowing who's in market for what. Right. So if you click a wallet ad, they think they drop everything else about you. You want a wallet, you want a wallet, you want a wallet. So it's been able to show really awesome revenue growth, but does not reach net new people all that efficiently because who's getting pushed in market? Nobody's getting pushed in market. It is just a market harvesting tool where I think Applovin, like a linear TV or a Snapchat or a TikTok doesn't have that sophisticated of an ad network yet. So it is a wider net. But the wider net benefits you and actually gets new customers in your door. Because what do you actually care about, Katie? Do you want, do you want the best last click row as possible or do you want as many new customers in the door at the cheapest price?

[Jason]

I want both, Sean.

[Sean]

Yeah, you can have it all.

[Jason]

I want both. No, I mean, we love Meta, right? Like, it literally has made our business what it is today. I think I'm hopeful that Applovin is going to maybe be different because ideally, right, like we run both and if they can unlock like this new group of customers, I mean, that's pretty cool.

[Matt]

Well, this. But that's the whole point to all of these channels. Well, not the whole point, but a big point to an Applovin or a linear TV is it gets you an incremental amount more reach that Facebook is going to struggle to get you. Because Facebook is an in market machine. It's not by default like an ocpm. Like a purchase conversion campaign is not by default a reach machine. Like that's not its objective. Right. So like as a consumer, like most consumer brands spend probably damn near 100% of their dollars on Meta going after purchases. And I don't know too too many that do a lot of like top of funnel work on Meta, but I am starting to hear of more and more doing top of funnel work or like awareness work off platform. Applovin being sort of like the new kid on the block. That's like for you, Katie, and for at least what I'm seeing, like percent new visits really high.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, like that's nice to see from a new platform. Like when we light up Tick Tock or Snap. Like I just don't see the same percent new visits that I do right now from like a linear or an app level. So I like it.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. And maybe, maybe people that are more, you know, inclined to be on social like on Snap or Tick Tock are also on other social platforms. And, and this one's different. The same way, you know, people are sitting at home watching tv.

[Matt]

You know, the thing that always blows me, I Listen, man, like we're all massive fans of Meta, like all of our businesses built on it. But like human beings have a wide variety of media that they consume. You know, and if you're gonna like. And if. Katie, I think for a brand like yours, like you sell a product that a lot of people in the country are in market for, most of the time, like you've got something for them, right? This type of like these larger reach platforms where like you can go on and just get crazy reach, like linear tv totally will work for you. I actually think it probably works a lot better for you than it does for Sean's wallet business.

[Jason]

I don't know, I think like for. Because Sean leans into females. Like gifting, right?

[Matt]

No, no, I'm not talking about females. I'm just saying like in general, like the category itself, your category is more. More friendly to television.

[Sean]

Well, Katie has one of the best categories. Like, like there's still a lot of people who hit me up trying to buy baby brands. Like that's not happening with like durable consumer goods. Like even the best brands. Like, you know, if you took Mike. Mike's not here. But if you took simple market, simple modern in market right now with hundreds of millions in revenue, awesome growth, great distribution. There's only a couple people who'd want to buy that business. But like every private equity group on earth still wants to buy baby stuff.

[Jason]

Because that's funny that you say that. I always hear the opposite actually.

[Sean]

What?

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Sean]

You know what? I bet people are just playing both sides. They just want the best deal possible.

[Jason]

I want anything, probably. But I do like it. I've always said what I love most about our audience is every nine months I have a new customer. So we kind of cycle through. Right. Like our customers as they get pregnant and their kids grow up and dude.

[Sean]

And it's such a gifting event too. If someone has a kid, like your first thing is, oh, I'm gonna buy you a bunch of clothes. That's what everybody does. It's really hard to sell wallets.

[Jason]

Yeah. Best part of a recession is it usually results in a baby boom. So nothing to do.

[Sean]

Yeah. Yeah. But look. So I think, I think to tell this to. To wrap up the story on Applovin. Look, it's. It's awesome to see new channels. Come here.

[Matt]

Great.

[Sean]

You haven't tried it. You should give it a try. I have not monetized the relationship. So you could just. But ask them for $50,000 in AD credit. They keep trying to get $50,000.

[Jason]

I did not get $50,000 in AD credit. I heard you say that at the beginning. And I was like, oh, that's, that's a benchable. I did not get that. But they do have a crazy wait list right now.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Like, and I heard even last week the people they were letting on had to have a certain level of ad spend on Meta and they've increased that since. So, you know, but I think it's like pay. Everyone needs to pay attention. I mean it could be a big thing for everybody in E commerce.

[Sean]

Yeah. So they're. They were trying to give people $10,000 an ad credit to try it. Everyone remember they're worth $80 billion. They're worth three times or four times what Snapchat were.

[Jason]

I need to send a slack to my rep really quick. Hold on.

[Sean]

You know, always be closing. Always be asking. Always ask. Hey, can I get some more ad credit? But okay, let's pivot it over to tv. Actually last thing, if you're seeing good success there. I also would try running Snapchat non like purchase optimized campaigns. Just run their click campaigns. We've tried both at this point. Going back to Meta having this amazing ability to find people in market to make purchases. I don't think Snapchat has that. I think if you try Doing that. Yeah. Or like it just increases the overall cost. Just run click campaigns and your percent of new visitors will go up and the last click routes is the same measured in North Bay and that's how we measure it. So just try running click campaigns on Snap if you're seeing good results on Apple.

[Jason]

Oh wait, one more thing. That's a really good point because we use North Beam too. I will say that our North Beam data and our in their in platform data. I don't know about you guys but ours is like matching.

[Matt]

What?

[Jason]

Yeah, swear like down to the order and because when we first launched it we were like skeptical and you know, really questioned it and. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

[Sean]

Yeah. You know, maybe it's because of like the knowing their customer. Right. They're like, they have, they're installed on the mobile device, there's no data loss. Right. We're like, you know, maybe, maybe with a meta there is. That's interesting.

[Jason]

Oh well, because it's just a pixel. Right? Because they're, they've got a pixel on like the separate apps and they're just feeding back conversion data.

[Sean]

Yeah, maybe because like it's, it could be more of a perfect data match than like meta who tries to get.

[Jason]

Their own way sometimes and maybe it'll get more diluted as it goes. Like right now we're still just measuring like one day roas on it. I mean we don't even know what kind of LTV these customers have yet. So something we're gonna keep on.

[Matt]

I mean I keep hearing that the quality of customer seems to be pretty decent on platform at least our early results look promising for like a one day click, you know, from what we would typically see from a meta. Yeah, but we're still like we were just slow to adopt. We were just. Yeah, we were busy with something else.

[Sean]

Story of my life, man.

[Matt]

Dude.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Can't do everything.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

All right, let's take a quick break and we're going to thank our sponsor, Postcrypt. Okay, here's, here's what I want to talk about. There's been this trend in e commerce where we're trying to get to like all in one solution. So like sms, email, everything's in one place. And I think there's a bunch of weird arguments for this. I think this is all bs. Like I would rather have a solution that is like point built and is great for that one thing. This is why I like postscript. This is why we use postscript. They do sms. They do it really fricking well, right. And I hate to say I say I told you so, but a lot of brands have gone to like the all in one thing to try to integrate email and SMS and they've just moved back and they do it for a bunch of reasons. Oh, it's easier for attribution. It's easier on my marketing team to log into one place. I think that's all bs. Look, the reason we like postscript is all they think about. They eat and breathe sms, which means my team is constantly getting access to new features before anybody else. They're actually consulting with us and helping us get better at sms. I think this like, oh, you know, email and SMS need to be integrated to make SMS more effective is a lie. You know, the reality is most of us aren't sending enough email and most of us aren't sending enough sms. So trying to like trigger one off the other is likely just a waste of time. And I don't know too many brands personally who can tell me straight faced that this has been a big benefit to them. So in my view, in my experience, like the reason we like having postscript as a sponsor is because we use it and it works really well and the team is great. Their support's awesome, their pricing is awesome. So that's my shout out to postscript. It's wicked to have them as a sponsor for the pod. Let's get back to the show.

[Sean]

All right, let's now let's pivot and talk about tv. The exact opposite, the oldest channel. Right. And I think if Applov's working at high CPMs, TV works because of how low CPMs are. Right? Like you can get $2, $3 CPMs. You can buy remnant sports game ad space that like runs and is beaut. We've always done TV through Tatari. I'd love to hear other people's experience. Outside of Tatari, you've only ever done.

[Jason]

Linear or do you do Tatari does linear and programmatic. Like do you do streamlinear? Okay, only.

[Matt]

Only linear.

[Sean]

Yeah. I'll tell you our whole history. So I think Tatari started in 2017. We got started in 2018 on Tatari. They were just linear and you had a pretty prepay for all your buys. I think they paid for our first TV creative. Like them them trying to get up as a startup and we re ran it from 2018 all the way through 2020. We took our foot off the gas when we got meta to just work a lot better and like we couldn't really validate it as a channel. We like, we looked at North Beam, whatever. Like it was fine. I think there's better ways to spend dollars. We've also tried Connected, but it was direct bias through Hulu Connected tv and that sucked ass. I don't even know if that's a program anymore. But like that it was like $50 CPMs, like super, super bad. But now we're, we're back on tatari. We're running TV ads for Q4. And yeah, the biggest advantage is how cheap there's just like it's us and a couple other brands and then a bunch of pharmaceutical companies. That's who runs TV ads. But Katie, what's your experience?

[Jason]

You think? Well, so I'm kind of new to it. So we did. We just came on about four months ago in August. And you know, I remember kind of like having discussion with my team, like, well, is TV dead? Like, or is our customers even watching TV anymore? But we wanted to test it a lot. I know like 50% of people still are watching TV and I knew nothing about buying TV at all. And we were using Mountain before, so. And that was more self serve. I will say Mountain's very like, upload your commercial and then I think it's a lot of retargeting and the whole thing. But you didn't have to actually understand, like, what is a tier one, a tier two, a tier three network. Like, what does it mean to have different programming times and like, how do you measure it? Right? Like all of that. And I will. And I, I was hesitant to. On the budget and I talked to a lot of brands. Sean, do you remember what y'all started at? Because you've been on it for a while.

[Sean]

Well, yeah. So Tatari, when they started, you had to commit to $25,000 a month, and then they moved it to 50,000amonth, and then they moved it to 200,000amonth, I think is the minimum spend you have now. Now is it more it.

[Jason]

No, it's not.

[Matt]

No, it's like, I think it's 25k a week or something like that. But it's close. Sean, you're not.

[Jason]

And honestly, here's my thing. Like, you kind of have to spin that because when you first you it's. You literally throw spaghetti at a wall at the beginning. And I went in like. And I have a really awesome rep at Tatari too. Like, she's a rock star and completely understands our brand, which is fabulous. Like, nothing sucks worse than getting a rep that does not understand your brand. But I was like, oh, we need to immediately go on, like, the Today show and HGTV and, you know, Magnolia, and we'll kill it on all those channels. And she's like, okay, well, here's what. Your CPV will be on those channels. And it was like, I could reach 10 people with my budget. And so they kind of, like, helped explain, like, you really have to test through, like, what they say is their beta, which is. I want to say it was a good six weeks, four to six weeks of, like, pure. You've got to just spend on every single network and then see what works. And then after that, we started optimizing. But even, like you were saying, Sean, like, our CPVs when we were throwing spaghetti at the wall, we're still better technically, right, Than meta. So it wasn't converting and it was not profitable when we first went in. But we have optimized and we've brought down our cv. Like, I mean, it's. Yeah, for a couple bucks now. It's awesome.

[Sean]

And let me. Let me just say this. Tatari actually good people to do business with. I accidentally left $400,000 in my account for, like, a year. And then they hit me up and they're like, hey, you have $400,000 in the account. Do you want it back? And they gave it to me back. So I prepaid.

[Jason]

Also, how you need to fire whoever lost $400,000 in your Tatari account. Or was it you? Did you lose it?

[Sean]

What? It wasn't me. We're just, you know, I think we prepaid for a bunch of media, and we're like, oh, we must have spent it, and then we just, I don't know, forgot to spend it or something.

[Jason]

Um. That's unreal. Yeah, they're good people. I. I've enjoyed everybody on their team, but we had to. Yeah. And so we've learned, like, so over the last three months, we've completely changed up our creative. They didn't give us any creative, like, credit. We just had to figure it out. But, like, what we always do, we created ours ourself. And so it was cheap. And we ran our first ads, which we thought were so good because anyone we showed it to in the office, they'd cry. And when you. Yeah, no. Swear to God, I thought. Yeah, I thought, oh, my God, I have missed my calling. Like, I should make TV channel. Like, we made somebody cry. I was so proud. We, like, uploaded them into their, like, creative network and asked all of our reps to, like, give us feedback, and they Were like, it's good. Let's run with it. And then, like, three weeks later, our girl goes, look like your commercials are really good. But it's just a. It was built around emotion, basically, is what we did. And she's like, I really think you should try something that's a little bit more like direct response. Kind of like what we do on Meta, like, literally, where we're like, shop [e-mail]. we switched over our commercials. Same visual, same clip, same everything, completely new voiceover. And it improved performance. Like, it doubled it. I mean, it killed it overnight just with our freaking voiceover. Isn't that crazy?

[Sean]

Yeah. So I think there's. We should. We should get into, like, the nuance of how TV is bought. And, like, I haven't done the TV buying through Tutori since, like 2018. But how they used to sell packages is you would choose your creative. It could be 15 seconds, 30 seconds or a minute. And then you choose your networks and then they give you. I mean, you think, you know, the networks that are on tv, you, you know, maybe there's Comedy Central, Fox, cnn, whatever. No, they're like. They're like, you should really run on the Fishing Channel and the Hot Rod Channel. And it's like, I've never heard of those. They're like, yeah. Every night, 2,000 men watch the Hot Rod channel. That's the channel for you. And so you. There's like. There's like. Like you said, like spaghetti on a wall. There's thousands of these TV channels you've never heard of, each one with very, very low reach. I remember we used to run when Vice still had a TV channel. It was like, yeah, you can reach everybody on Vice for $11. You wanna do that? I'm like, yeah, sure.

[Jason]

And at odd times, like, you would probably like when you were preaching to him, like, I want to be at 6:00 and I want to be at 9:00am no, like, it's all about the remnants, I think.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Remnant Buys is where you get your cheap inventory.

[Jason]

Oh, yeah. And then if you find. And if you find one that really kills it, well, you can buy a head and, like, reserve that. Like, we're going to reserve some space around Black Friday, for sure. But yeah, it just. The leftover TV has been great.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Because. Because if you're tied right, you're like, yeah, I want to be on the bachelor, like, at 8pm nationwide. And they're like, okay, well, that is a $50 cpm. But if they can't sell that the day before, they're like, hey, do you want it for $12? So, yeah, I think remnant TV is really important. Important also. So we would do 15 second bumpers, what they call them? 15 second ads. And throw out your mind, like, what you think a TV ad should look like. That's wrong. Like, you basically just want to.

[Jason]

Like, what I did. I thought you were supposed to cry and be like, I'll forever be dedicated.

[Matt]

Our best TV ad, Katie is our head of product. Literally, like, for 15 seconds, talking about Lomi.

[Jason]

Oh, that's when we found out that.

[Matt]

She took some acting classes. We're like, great. Get over in the. In the company kitchen, get camera.

[Jason]

You know who I think makes the best TV commercials? And she makes the best ads, period. But the founder of Lumi the deodorant.

[Matt]

Oh, really?

[Jason]

Yes. Do y'all not. Y'all don't get served her stuff. Oh, great. Apparently meta and my TVs think that I stink in all kinds of areas because I get fed it all the time. But I am in awe because I. Y'all need to look up. There's a what? A website where you can look up commercials.

[Sean]

I spot.

[Jason]

Yes. Watch theirs. It's like, totally ugc. Like, she does a lot of just stuff where she's just talking. Like, she's talking to the team. I watch every freaking one, and I don't even buy the product.

[Sean]

Yeah, I think her name's. I want to say it's Stephanie, but I don't think that's right.

[Matt]

Like, L U M E. That this chick.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

Cool.

[Sean]

They crush.

[Jason]

I mean, they crush.

[Sean]

Yeah. Super good ads. Very direct response. Eye contact explosion. Explaining why she made it. Like, those are. Those are great ads. But people go into tv, Matt.

[Jason]

You might want to look into it. I think it's actually something we do.

[Matt]

That, like, our best performing style of ad is like, here's why we made the product. This is what it does. This is why people, like. It's like, super direct response.

[Jason]

That's what I mean. Like, you might just want their deodorant. It's for, like, stinky balls Katie.

[Matt]

Like, we're remote. How could you make that judgment over?

[Jason]

I'm just saying. Anyways, they have. They have killer commercials, and now, like, I find myself paying attention. I don't know if y'all do, like, you know, gone are the days where I'm impressed by, like, Coca Cola's commercials. Now when I see, like, a, you know, a DTC brand, like, running a commercial, I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh yeah, that's perfect. Oh, I love how they did three second clips. I love how they do their CTA at the end. Like they're constantly calling out the brand. If you pay attention to commercials are extremely repetitive. I don't have y'all ever caught that. Is that like a known thing?

[Sean]

Well, yeah. What I really like is, I mean just multiple 15 seconds like per hour of programming. I think that's good. I've also had people do the opposite where they just buy the full minute and then just like hit, hit it home six or seven times. Like call to actions, exact same value. Props. Yeah, but I think it's.

[Jason]

That sounds expensive. I don't know.

[Sean]

I think it's the same thing as Applovin where like TV viewers are used to really bad ads. Right. Like they're used to pharmaceutical drugs or whatever. When you have cool products with cool messaging and taking the best things that work on social. Because to be a meta dependent advertiser growing, you are the best advertiser. Like there's nobody better than you. Every day you're fighting and winning new customers profitably. Like you're going against some middle manager at some PE firm. You know what I mean? Like, or gambler, whatever. You're kicking their ass. So go into their arenas. Like that's, that's app lovin, that's tv. And you can get awesome returns. You do have to, you do probably need to be an eight figure brand because you have to be willing to spend a hundred thousand dollars.

[Matt]

And like I think it's, I think it's category, Sean. I think category matters a lot in television. Like you, you need something that is like. Because it's, it is a shotgun. It's not a. There's no targeting. Right. It's like you're going to try a whole bunch of places and you know, you need something that everybody is buys. Like that's like a huge TAM thing.

[Jason]

What's a category that wouldn't work?

[Matt]

I don't think it would work for Peely case.

[Jason]

Really?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So I would, I wouldn't say there's no targeting. I'd say it's interest based targeting. You know, I don't know for pela case or not. You know who would have a hard time with tv? I think Figs. I think Figs does spend money on tv but it is like a medical professional. Like.

[Jason]

Yeah, but I bet they'd kill it during like Grey's Anatomy and shows like that maybe.

[Sean]

Well, I would think so too but I don't know if doctors actually watch that or nurses actually watch that, like, that's like the thing.

[Matt]

I think my biggest thing with TV is, like, we've always been surprised by the placements that perform. It's never what we think it is. Like, my best freaking placement this summer for Lomi was tennis.

[Jason]

Tennis.

[Matt]

I'm like, what?

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They're like, oh, yeah. Crushed the Food Network. I'm like, get the. Like, tennis. Like, yeah, US Open and whatever other things. It just, like, smacked.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Couldn't have. I would have never made that call.

[Sean]

Yeah, sports is definitely the best because people are so interested and it's live and people are watching, like, the.

[Jason]

And they're committed. They. They tune in to watch every single.

[Matt]

Yeah, but I think, Sean, what you're hitting on, I think we've spoken about this before, but, like, my. My view of television is it's a higher trust channel than most social placements. Like, yeah, you're next to a pharmaceutical company, but I would rather be next to, like, big brand pharmaceutical company in an ad spot than like, John's dick pills from Oregon. Who's running you on, like, in an Instagram, Right. Or.

[Jason]

Or because you. And you trust them like, you figure.

[Matt]

John or the pharmaceutical company or the pills.

[Jason]

I don't know. I think it's because what you're saying is, like, the customer that's like, laying in bed watching TV and something comes on. On some level, you're like, they must be legit because they're on tv.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Right.

[Matt]

It's the company you keep.

[Jason]

We absolutely use North Beam and me specifically every day. I'm constantly in there building out reports. And I remember when we brought it on a couple years ago, and I got to meet Austin, who is the founder and he is fabulous. And he was selling me on the idea of, you know, not using in platform and really using a separate platform as like, our source of truth, which is what we needed. And I mean, it's. It has been a deal breaker for us. It's helped us scale in areas and on platforms that we didn't even, you know, weren't getting a good read on.

[Sean]

And.

[Jason]

And it's helped us optimize for our channels that we really had a lot of high spend on. And their team is great. My favorite part is taking the calls with them where they, you know, dive deep into the insights and they've always got really great information for us. So, yeah, I love North Beam. We wouldn't be where we are at today without them.

[Sean]

Let's go back to the way Meta works. Meta is it knows if you're in market and then they just show you your direct competitors. TV doesn't do that. Right. So like one advantage of spending money on TV is like look, if you click on a phone case ad, you're going to get me, you're going to get Matt, you're going to get every fucking phone case brand on earth. But you can get in front of an audience who maybe they want a phone case, maybe they don't. You don't really know the targeting isn't there. But at least it's, it's not directly competing against everyone else in market.

[Jason]

Yeah. And it is a really great top of funnel tool. Right. So if you can keep your costs low and your CPV is like at a minimum, then maybe they're not in market right now, you know. But when they do become in market they're like, what was that wallet company, right, that I heard about? Or somebody's best friend gets pregnant and they're like what was that baby brand? And then if somebody says it or they see it somewhere, I do think it keeps it more top of mind.

[Matt]

You know what I think the other big thing with television is? It's not an always on channel. Like not for most brands. Like it's a. I'm going to layer this in at certain times a year that make the most sense for my category, my brand, whatever. It's not like Meta where you're just going to kind of have like spend on most of the time in most categories. I've met people who are have an exception to this, but TV is more like I'm going to blast this thing right now.

[Jason]

I think that's a great point. And we've actually had to refresh our creative completely more frequently than we have on Meta. Like Meta, you find a winner and you just like let it run. And I've definitely seen with TV like as we've added new creative and it tends to take all the spend, we're cycling out old creative faster.

[Matt]

Oh, interesting.

[Jason]

Yeah, I know. Maybe I'm just getting better at making TV commercials.

[Sean]

Dude, totally. I want to go back to tv because the real alpha on, on, on, sorry, TV and sports is if you work with Atari or anybody else, just try to buy extra innings. Okay. Like we like over time. We don't need our ads to run any particular time. If you're a movie that comes out on Friday, you need to run during the Thursday game or the Friday game or the Saturday game, like out now we don't really need that like we don't care if it runs Friday or Tuesday. Like it doesn't really matter. Right. So use your optimizing for the cheapest cost per view. Right. Or even cost per visitor, whatever to get that done. Tell them I will buy any extra innings like over overtime in NBA. Like we, we bought World Series a couple years ago and that's how we did it. It's like, hey, look, when it goes to inning 10, give me all the ads. Because more people are actually watching. The later it goes, even people leave the stadium.

[Jason]

So how does that work? Because you have to book it in advance and then to get clearance. Right? Like it's not live. Like we're meta. If we have a good day, we can scale that day. I mean, yeah, Tatari is a lot more like you have to have clearance or you have to.

[Matt]

You're giving them.

[Jason]

They.

[Matt]

They clear the creative per network or per like group of networks. And then you're. You're sort of like at that point, Tatari is literally buying that inventory. Like remnant inventory. Right. So it's not because there's no guarantee there's extra innings. So they treat that like remnant.

[Jason]

Can they go in and scale the one like though, like he's saying, like it. What if some game goes into overtime? Can you like increase the spend and that? Yeah. No, right. It has to be like pre bot.

[Sean]

What. What we used to do. And don't quote me on this. I don't know if satar works like this anymore.

[Jason]

We would listening to this, shaking their head like dumb asses. They didn't even know what they're talking about.

[Sean]

And then, you know, ask Tari for free ad credit too while you're at it. Just ask.

[Jason]

Yeah. $50,000. That's what I didn't get. But Sean did. So ask for it.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

People are gonna be like, Tari's like, what the fuck are these people talking about?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

We would send them money and say, hey, if you can get this sort of cpm, run it. Right?

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Sean]

And it would just auto automatically clear or whatever. Maybe there's a guy behind the scenes doing that for me. I have no idea how that works.

[Jason]

But it's a media buying team. I met mine and they're so nice and I. But it's funny, you keep talking about sports and I'm looking at like our top ones. We're not on any sports, so maybe that's. But I don't. Yeah. I. And I was gonna be like, this is a guy thing. Well, no, it's not Women watch sports too. Like I watch football all the time, but I can't think of like the commercials I'm seeing so.

[Matt]

Well, Lomi doesn't do well on all sports. We do well on tennis, we do well on golf. Like there's certain sports that have connected, but like baseball and, and basketball and football haven't. And we've tried like at this point over the last three years, like we tried a lot of different placements at different times of the year. But we go like we go on TV now starting about three weeks ago, and then we'll come off after holiday and then we'll go back on in March for our peak sort of gardening spring cleaning season.

[Jason]

That's a good point. So are they pushing you? So they keep talking about Q5 and like what we're gonna do, which usually we pull way back to after shipping cut off. But I would think for brands that are wanting to like test out Tatari, it'd be a great time to kind of test to see. I mean, it's just cheap. That's when it's the cheapest to buy tv when all the big brands have pulled out. I mean, you know.

[Sean]

Well, I'll also say that I bet viewership's actually really, really high from Christmas.

[Jason]

Yeah. What do you do after Thanksgiving? You sit and watch tv.

[Sean]

Yeah, totally.

[Jason]

Right after Christmas. Yeah.

[Sean]

Yeah. So I would.

[Jason]

Maybe we shouldn't tell people that and we just run it and see how it's.

[Sean]

So that's something we really embraced last year is like, you know, this, this idea of Q5 from like, you know, basically the week of Christmas until the second week of January and just going hard as hell. And I'll, I'll pull up live sales results of that week. And I think it's really strong. We also really pull back, you know, shipping cutoff and like the last day of shipping cutoff, we probably do $2 million or whatever. Like it's a, it's a huge revenue driver for us because we're a gift giving product.

[Jason]

And then so you just, each day you add on another day as long as you can keep up. I, I think I remember last year at Christmas you being. Because our cutoff was before yours. And every day Sean's like, I'm extending my cutoff and I just did another $20 million.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Jason]

And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.

[Sean]

Look, we, we also don't run our warehouse, so we, we're, it's, we're dependent on somebody else. But dude, this. So the drop off Christmas Eve it is. We're lucky to break a couple hundred thousand bucks the three days before Christmas Eve or four days before Christmas Eve. It's a multi million dollar day.

[Matt]

So it's like, God, that close to Christmas.

[Jason]

Yeah. What are you doing, like overnight shipping?

[Sean]

Well, we drove a lot of people to Amazon, like, so we'll. Our Amazon, we'll do a million dollars like the last day. Amazon can guarantee it, which is like the 22nd or 23rd. But then this Q5 idea, it's fine. I mean like the day after Christmas, we're probably up to $400,000 from like 150 on Christmas itself. So we can scale up a little bit, but we'll try harder this year.

[Matt]

Yeah, Christmas Day is good. I don't get it.

[Jason]

Yeah, it is for us too. I love it. Christmas Day, the day after. And then we skyrocket. I love January. It's my favorite.

[Sean]

I mean, Christmas Day itself, the number one day for engagements. I bet the number one day to tell your family you're pregnant. So I bet that's an ad you.

[Jason]

Should run just like that. I'm gonna get you. Can you come and do it for me though, so I can totally get complete.

[Sean]

I can play a new dad so well.

[Matt]

Man, you're the perfect age for it.

[Jason]

You are.

[Sean]

That's the angle you should have for like sports ads. It'd be like, hey, I'm a new dad. I have no fucking idea what's going on.

[Jason]

But somebody told me to buy this and. And so I did. And it's. And my wife is happy with me, so everyone else should do it.

[Sean]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jason]

And that's it. Easy. We take Q5 easy. Like after. I don't know, Matt, if y'all do too. But after shipping cut off, we take those two weeks to breathe. Like, literally.

[Matt]

Oh yeah. On the last two weeks of December for us is. Is a breather for sure. Because especially like manufacturing the product, you know, we're. We're like. Right now is basically like we're trying to get ahead of what we think we're going to sell. This is the only time of year where P Case actually starts to build some inventory. Like most of the year we make as we sell. Completely unreal.

[Jason]

You're trying to like, stock up so that you have it now.

[Matt]

We like, okay, like what are our 50 best sellers? Like, we're going to sell a lot of those designs. Let's just start pre making those while we have capacity. Because like the minute, like, we turn on our Black Friday this Thursday the minute that goes live, like the poor people in our production.

[Jason]

You haven't turned on your Black Friday yet. Didn't we have this discussion with Christmas?

[Matt]

No, no.

[Jason]

Remember, you didn't have your Christmas phones.

[Matt]

I think we had them out. Well, yeah, you put yours up like in August.

[Jason]

It's.

[Matt]

I thought that was a bit early.

[Jason]

Look, it's practically Easter now. Like, I'm glad you guys are still thinking about Black Friday, but we're on to Easter and fourth of July at this point, so. But you're. I feel like everybody's launched a lot of their Black Friday stuff already.

[Matt]

No, we have. We're holding.

[Jason]

Yeah, you're both holding.

[Sean]

We did early holiday sale in October. Right. And we just like, we slowly add to it the 12th, which is the day after this podcast is being recorded. That's when our. We're officially in peak holiday. The entire website goes like, know we have Santa on with the whole thing, but we've had like a expanded sales section the whole time with like pretty good deals and offers. I was telling everybody as soon as the election's over, like that's Christmas. It's like we should just, we should just get started right now. It's the latest Black Friday could ever be and we have Cyber Monday happening in December. Yeah, you like, if you're a Cyber Monday dependent, like brand, we. It is really important for us every day before Christmas, like that week is all million dollar days, right. So we just try to get a jump on that as quickly as possible. So we're spending a ton of money right now. We're having 5, 6, $700,000 days right now just trying to like get into it. And we haven't officially kicked off holiday until tomorrow. But yeah, usually if this, by the time this comes out, if you haven't started, you're. You're done.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh yeah, no, no, we're starting like this week. You know, like site change over all that stuff. But it's, it's more just like the big Black Friday, like the messaging Katie. Right. That's what's. That's the thing that we hold back on until now.

[Sean]

I mean, Aloe Alo was in October, like Black Friday.

[Jason]

Oh, that's really early. Yeah, that's early. And we change it up. We make it fun, different. But you brought up a good point. Like we're really. I keep thinking about this whole. So you. I mean, Cyber Mondays just December 2nd. Right. And then usually we all have that whole week after. I wonder if the consumer is going to bring pull forward some of their spending this year. Really. I don't think they will. I don't think anybody except for us is aware of the fact that like Cyber Monday is three weeks from Christmas.

[Matt]

Consumers don't really care about our comps, Katie. Year over year.

[Jason]

But I obsessed. Do you know what else has been really hard this year? And I don't. I, I think I texted one of you guys this like Chinese New Year starts two weeks earlier than it ever has.

[Matt]

We're getting crunched like you're getting crunched on holiday. This year is shorter and yes, I know it's causing us hell.

[Jason]

Well for projections because usually we like to see like what we're moving at Black Friday and Cyber Monday and like what are we clearing out and what do we want to focus on? And you've got to get right, you're like pos in early, way early to get them in time or at least they ship for Chinese New Year. And this year not only do they get a month long vacation, but this year they're doing it two weeks early on the one year that we have Black Friday a week late. So it is a crazy time to be in E commerce, that's for sure.

[Sean]

Yeah. And when they come back from China's new Year, hopefully we understand what Trump's going to do with these tariffs.

[Jason]

Oh my God. Yeah, I know. Although election did not affect sells either way I don't think.

[Matt]

Really? You got soft for two days, did you really?

[Jason]

Really?

[Matt]

I also sell to like I what I'm assuming is a much more left leaning person.

[Jason]

We had the day before election. We had a killer day.

[Matt]

Yeah, us too.

[Jason]

Like it was like everyone's like well I better go buy what I wanted before.

[Matt]

I don't know, I like Sunday, Monday before election. Like wow, people are doom scrolling or something. But this is great.

[Jason]

It was fantastic. I know.

[Sean]

I love seen a huge pickup post election. Like the election day itself was the weakest day we've seen since October and since then it's just been, it's been crushing it.

[Matt]

Yeah. We've been picking back up like we're again we're recording this on November 11th for people listening but I think right now I was looking appealing case is up like 40, 40 some percent year over year. 44, 44.2% for November 1st. Like 10 days of November. We're great. We're happy.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, we're, we are. I mean I don't, I don't want to jinx it if I say it out loud. I'm going to jinx it, and then it's going to go the opposite direction. But let me just say, November is, like, the best freaking month of the year. I love it.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Oh, dude. I mean, we're. I was telling the team this. I'm like, between today and the end of the year, we have to do, like, $70 million. So it's like, good. Good luck, everybody.

[Matt]

See ya.

[Jason]

See us to be an ops. And then the day after marketing is like, bye. And then OPS is just struck with, like, the whole mess to clean up after.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Sean]

So the last thing to say about this, we try to close the business from the 23rd until basically the first of the year and just like, try to give everyone, like, a little bit of a break. Like, free pto, basically.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Sean]

Some people stay on customer service, you know, whatever. Do you guys operate the same way or how do you guys think about that?

[Matt]

Oh, I don't know what our policy is right now, but, yeah. I mean, there's certain teams that, you know, once shipping cutoff hits, like, the marketing team, just, man, go to bed, like, going good to get a drink. Like, just do something, Come back and, you know, turn back on on Christmas day just to make sure shit is on. But like, yeah, not till the new year.

[Jason]

Yeah, ours is. I don't tell them to go to bed and have a drink, but it's the same.

[Matt]

I'm just like, whatever floats your boat, Katie. It's got to be the thing that you need to do to recharge.

[Jason]

You know, what we all do well, because remember, we're all in office, too, so. But, like, we definitely take those two weeks to, like, clean out our desks and, like, do. It's like spring cleaning at Christmas. We do our huge company Christmas party, like, during it, which, you know, nobody ever makes it to work the next day. And we try to. And then we try to step up and help all ops. I mean, as much as we can, but we focus on inventory. Like, I just feel I can breathe. Like, that's what I love most about those two weeks is that I, like, it gives my brain a break. And then the second we get to Christmas, I'm like, all right, game on. Yeah, it's great.

[Sean]

All right, guys, well, let's do an episode in the new year or, like, I guess post Black Friday and we'll see how. How we all did. And I'll either buy everybody champagne or be asking for a job. So we'll see.

[Jason]

Guys.

[Sean]

Katie.

[Matt]

So unemployable. There's no way that's happening.

[Sean]

Dude, I could. I could. I could work in the warehouse with Katie. I. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. My car windows won't be busted. I swear, I'll show up just fine.

[Jason]

I like shipping orders. You told me you went and shipped orders, that you literally texted me and you were like, I pulled a Katie. I'm like, that sounds like an insult, but I'm take it as a compl.

[Sean]

I was. I was in the warehouse. You were shipping October. Yeah. It sucked.

[Jason]

Yeah. But you know what? It makes you really great at what you do, because I think sometimes you do have to kind of get down on the, you know, in the front lines and figure it out with everybody else. So I think your team probably really respected you for doing that.

[Sean]

Oh, yeah, Well, I think. I think my team has a healthy dose of fear and respect, as you guys saw. I told everybody, I'm not your fucking dad. Figure it out.

[Jason]

Yeah, I've seen your group slacks, like, for sure.

[Sean]

All right, we'll end it there. Katie, we love having you here. Come on. Anytime. Take my spot on the Operators.

[Jason]

Oh, stop. I love it. Thank you all for having me.

[Matt]

This is great. That's fun.

[Sean]

You made it. An amazing episode of the Operators podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing to the newsletter. Thank you to fulfill the best sponsor on earth, North Beam. Postscript. They're tied for two of the best sponsors on earth. Love them. Love what they do for us. Thank you for being here. Subscribe. Like Share Follow me on Twitter. Follow the other guys on Twitter. Talk to you later. Goodbye.