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- [00:01]
A
You do not need to sell powders, gummies, or beauty products to win in E Commerce. This is a common trope in this land of consumer that if you don't have a problem, you can't sell a solution. Well, sometimes. Sometimes you can just sell your favorite hobby. Today we are talking with operators who've done just this. They took a personal experience and turned it into a brand. Something you'd never expect to get to the scale that gets them on this show, let alone getting them into a Super bowl commercial, onto Shark Tank, getting offers, and then walking away from all of them. They sell what they call Fiero, the love of discovery and the joy of triumph. This is Operators Titans, brought to you by Applovin. And today we are talking with Justine and Adrian of the Woobles. They're two of my favorite people I have met in consumer. Let's get into it. Justine and Adrian. I gotta start with this. I need to know what registers higher on the emotional scale. All right, I'm gonna give you three things. Giving you, like, the first thing that comes to mind. Seeing yourself and your brand in a Google super bowl commercial. That's pretty good. Having the woobles included in McDonald's Monopoly game or Monopoly sweepstakes. Like, that's also kind of cool. Or putting a freaking wuble on your wedding cake.
- [01:24]
B
Yeah. I grew up begging my parents to take me to McDonald's whenever there's monopoly like, I love. I had the.
- [01:32]
C
The fold out.
- [01:33]
B
I had all my stickers placed. Researched it extensively. So I think that, for me, was the highlight. Not to discount our wedding.
- [01:41]
D
No, I was like, screw the wedding.
- [01:43]
A
Let's just say Justine wedding is at
- [01:45]
D
the least absurd of the three to me. You know, now that you phrase it that way, I'm like, the super bowl commercial, as it featured me heavily and I used to work at Google, does feel like a really full circle moment and was. Yeah, pretty emotional impactful, especially because I don't know anything about sports.
- [02:03]
A
Yeah, you.
- [02:04]
B
Me, both.
- [02:05]
A
I went to a baseball game with Sean and a bunch of people for the World Series last year, and I think I spent every inning asking them, like, well, what does that mean?
- [02:14]
B
What does that mean?
- [02:14]
A
What is that? What are they doing? I'm like, I don't. I don't actually know what this game is. There's no skate. There's no. There's no skates. There's no puck. So I. I want to know, like, Mike was mentioning this ahead of time. Like, you.
- [02:25]
C
You.
- [02:26]
A
You started the company before you were married, and I'm Assuming you started the company together when you were together. Unless you can correct that. Can you just like walk us through like right from the beginning? Like, what made you want to start the business? Where were you before? And then like, how, how and when was the world going to get married? Like, just give us a bit of color because I. We have so many questions on how all this stuff. Like there's so much that we can do here, but I would like a bit of a framing for how we get to like here.
- [03:00]
D
Sure, yeah. Do you want to tell the origin? You can put us. I always want to see what he says about how we met and stuff, but he is deflected because I'm like, what was a trap?
- [03:11]
A
Adrian, don't do it. Just you tell it.
- [03:14]
D
We are. We are college sweethearts, started dating freshman year. So we've actually been together at this point for 18 years, more than half our lives. Yeah. So even though it sounds like perhaps a fan, fiscally irresponsible thing for us have started the business as boyfriend, girlfriend. It was by then already like over a decade into this relationship and actually perhaps even more physically irresponsible. We had bought a house together before that also. So we. The idea though for the business came from back in the day when I used to work at Google as a UX designer, user experience designer. And I love my job, great at it. I specialize in designing education tech tools, leading things like Google classroom. So they asked me to be a manager and it turns out I sucked at being a manager. So my self confidence took a huge hit and I was like, I gotta look to something else besides my job to define my identity. And through that I picked up crochet and then was reminded basically that hey, I can still learn new things, I can still do some off, like become a better manager. So that type of like re remembering that I still can do new things is really what we're trying to teach with it. And I would say we didn't actually even come at making the wibbles thinking that it would become a business, like a proper business. It was more of like a side hobby for me because I just have always loved cute things and making dick.
- [04:45]
A
Were you now as a side hobby, like were you working on the woobles while you guys were still had jobs or had you already left the careers and like decided to go like turn it into a business? Like what was sort of the sequencing?
- [05:00]
D
I was designing patterns by then because I was like, my only background's in digital design. I have no idea how to work with physical product inventory sounds like a terrible thing. Can I make passive income thing work that I see people talk about by selling pattern PDFs? The answer is no, I could not make that work. And now look at our lives.
- [05:23]
C
I'm curious on that. Like, what was the thing where you, You. You were like, I want to earn passive income. I remember my moment where I had that. What was the thing where you went from like, this is a cool idea to like, I can do this.
- [05:36]
B
The.
- [05:36]
C
The. The fuse is lit.
- [05:40]
D
Hmm.
- [05:40]
B
That journey was a long journey for us, I think.
- [05:43]
D
Mm.
- [05:45]
B
Thinking of, like, I would say that we both knew we weren't happy in our careers, so I would. I would say the passive income moment. Like, we started thinking about it because we had spent so much time, like, working in our careers, and we were on paper, like, doing quite well in our careers. We had. We're pretty young for, like, the level of responsibility we were at, but just, like, deeply unsatisfied. And so that's where the conversations of, like, well, what else can we do? Like, we need to pay rent, so, like, we need to make some passive income. And so I think that's like, the idea sparked. But to go from passive income to, like, an actual functioning business probably took us like, three years. And in between, we had all sorts of ideas that we tested and failed and weren't successful at.
- [06:33]
A
Adrian, can you just, like, maybe go back to the.
- [06:35]
C
You.
- [06:35]
A
You said you were both kind of dissatisfied in your careers. Like, UX design at Google sounds kind of awesome. And Adrian, you are more on the finance side, right? Like, if. If I understand. Right.
- [06:49]
C
Yeah.
- [06:50]
A
I'd love to just unpack that a little bit. Like, I, I think it's a common story, but you don't really hear people explain why very often. Like, I think we sometimes brush over this fact. Like, what was it?
- [07:01]
B
What.
- [07:01]
A
What can you remember? Because you've been doing Googles now for a bit.
- [07:05]
B
I would say that ultimately boils down to that you're. You're working towards a dream that was someone else's dream. So, like, you know, young age, you're like, get good grades, go to good school, get a great job. And, like, we did all of that, right? And it's like, well, now you got this incredible job. Like, everybody wants this job. Like, surely you must be so excited to have this job. And, like, surely you want to work really hard to keep this job and do better at this job. And I think we did all of that. And then you put in all this effort only to realize that like this wasn't even my dream. So I am living someone else's dream. And because it's someone else's dream, like I'm not getting any happiness out of it. I think that it took, but it takes a long time to realize that. It took me probably working for five years to realize that like this was not, this was not my dream. This was like society's dream. Or like not society's dream, but like it's a dream that I had borrowed from someone else. I think might be a better way to put it.
- [08:03]
E
Operators Titans is brought to you by Applovin, The S&P 500 mobile gaming ad platform. If you like this content, you can thank Applovin. Ridge was one of the first spenders on applovin. Back in 2024 we spent millions of dollars of our own money and last year in 2025 we spent $2.8 million on AppLovin with the same efficiency as Meta. This is a channel with scale that will reach new customers that you're probably not reaching on other platforms. You're going to get the guide to channel expansion that we wrote, Access the event where we're presenting and all the recordings and decks between us, our friends and 25 of the best leaders in E commerce. But Sean, I don't have the capacity to do other ad channel right now. Well, the operators have not left you hanging. We have a step by step playbook that you can get if you go to 9operators.com applovin. Plus when you launch through Applovin's new ad manager Axon, you're going to get $1,000 in free credit day one and another $5,000 in ad credit. When you spend $5,000 that's nine operators.com applovin. Learn the best kept secrets of the newest platform ever and get at least $5,000 in ad credit. So check out Applovin.
- [09:09]
A
That's great. Justine, was it similar for you or, or was it like a different kind? I mean the manager thing is clear, right? Like I just don't like to do this but did you lose like, were you always interested in design and user experience and does that still stick today or.
- [09:24]
D
Yeah.
- [09:25]
A
Like I'm just curious on the. The dissatisfaction part for you.
- [09:27]
D
Yeah, the dissatisfaction part was definitely from like manager era is what triggered it. Like I, like I have a much darker story which is like I actually got a bunch of like anxiety insomnia, like lost my appetite. Like my, my body was physically breaking down and so I was just like, I gotta make some big changes. And I did try. I'm someone who's always like, I don't want to have any regrets, so I will try every option within the system before I leave that system. So I did try going back to IC work. I tried being a UX designer again, but I kind of feel like. I think I just got too tied up with, like, the. The emotions that had happened beforehand, that I got, like, a little bit jaded there and also kind of felt a bit of that, like, you know, 26 years old. Like, this is like, I can't. I can't imagine, like, the next 40 years of my life being more or less the same thing as the like of this. Um, because there's only so many more levels up the corporate ladder I could go, and I don't find it appealing a lot of what is higher up there. Um, but I have always loved design. I still love design. It is the thing that I love the most about this job. And I first learned about human centered design in college when I accidentally watched this documentary of these MIT students taking a class redesigning the shopping cart with Ideo. And I was like, that's the coolest thing ever. And I was like, I'm gonna go do this. And then I looked around at the majors available at our school, and it was like, no, you can't do that. You will be graduating as an electrical engineer instead.
- [11:03]
C
I can. I can relate with what you guys are saying. It actually reminds me of a quote I heard Elon Musk say that somebody was asking him in some kind of an interview, what would you say to somebody who is aspiring to be an entrepreneur to encour. Encourage them? And he's like, I wouldn't encourage them. I would discourage them. Because entrepreneurship is so hard. You should only do it if you just cannot possibly imagine doing anything else and being happy. And it's interesting because this show is a lot about celebrating entrepreneurship. But I think what I hear in your story is you just got to a point where it's like, I'm not going to be able to be happy pursuing somebody else's dream, you know, managing other people towards somebody else's dream. It's going to have to be building towards something that I'm passionate about. And I think that's true for most entrepreneurs is you just reach a point where it's like, hey, I get that this isn't the easier path, but it's the path that I just have to take.
- [12:00]
B
Yeah, it's something that I. The phrase I say sometimes is it's entrepreneurship out of necessity, and it comes in different forms. Sometimes it's like you literally just can't get any other job, and so you're forced into entrepreneurship. And sometimes it's just that you're. You're personally just incompatible with the. The experiences that you've had. And then so you navigate towards entrepreneurship.
- [12:20]
D
Yeah.
- [12:21]
A
And I. Yeah, I think the. Go ahead, Justine.
- [12:23]
D
Oh, I feel like American society often heralds entrepreneurs, and it's like, oh, that's awesome that you're doing that. But I think after starting the woobles and seeing what it's like, I. I think I had a bit of that attitude before starting the woobles. So after starting the woobles and seeing what it's like, I totally am, like, totally fine for people to want that. Like, yeah, job. Like, it is so much easier if you could contain nine to five and, like, you know, have.
- [12:52]
C
It's not for most people. Like, what we do is not for most people. It is harrowing at times. And like, you said this, but Seth Godin wrote a book called the Dip, and one of the observations that he makes in there is that as a culture, we kind of celebrate starting things, but not necessarily persisting in things and finishing things. And so it makes sense that we'd be like, yeah, entrepreneurship's awesome.
- [13:15]
B
But.
- [13:16]
C
And so people are always kind of starting projects that don't really go anywhere because that's kind of what we incentivize and what we celebrate. But you get into this and you realize pretty quickly, like, oh, this is a lot harder than just showing up and punching in every day.
- [13:30]
A
Yeah.
- [13:31]
B
It's very unlike. I feel like coming from school and coming from a job where it's like, this is a to do list. If you do these things, you will be successful. I mean, the biggest awakening is like, you can do all of these things and, like, just nothing happens. And it's a big awakening moment.
- [13:47]
A
Yeah.
- [13:47]
B
All.
- [13:48]
A
All entrepreneurs are unemployed, and the hope is that at some point you're gainfully unemployed.
- [13:54]
D
Yes.
- [13:54]
A
And that is how all of us should view ourselves. Or unemployable would be like, the. Probably the more accurate word. You're. I kind of. I like this. You seem on paper to have this, like, very complimentary sort of skill set as a team in the business. Right. Did it. Did you intentionally start the company together because you looked at each other and said, like, we both have different things to bring here, or was it. That wasn't planned and you just found out as you went?
- [14:31]
D
We talk about this often. Because I'm like, I don't even remember why Adrian decided to help out with the. None of us remember when this happened or lie. He's just a generally extremely helpful guy. So I feel like when he like, saw me like struggling with stuff, he's like, I'll do it. I'll take care of this, like, shipping stuff and whatever.
- [14:51]
B
In the, in the beginning, it was just. We did this out of our tiny Brooklyn apartment and we would have limited. It's like New York, you have limited space. And so like it was to the point where like, you know, we can't use the full roll of shipping tape. We have to like rip it in half. Cause, like, we don't need the full width. And like, that's where it all started. And then over time, I think I just naturally got more and more involved, but it was very much like a. It wasn't. There's no planning of like, you do this, I'll do this. And then like, where are our complimentary skills? I think it was just happened. Significant, like way more organically where we were both.
- [15:26]
A
Is it more structured today then, like, would you say, like, would you say like now, today? It's like we have very clear, you know, like, Adrian, you do this. Justine, you're like, I'm, I'm in these things. Or do you guys, over time do you more overlap? Like my wife and I, over time, I think we. We worked together for almost seven years. We started to overlap a little bit more. Like, she's the creative and I'm the software engineer. And like, over time I had opinions on UX and design and then like, over time she had opinions on how I should run the company. So I'm just curious, your take, like, do you weave a little bit now or is it. Is it still quite separate?
- [16:03]
D
Sounds similar, I would say. Yeah. Similar dynamic. I. I feel like we used to have a divide of like, I do everything customers facing and he does everything in the background. But over time, Adrian's got lots of opinions about customer facing stuff. And I mean, I think they're good. I think they're good opinions. I actually think he's like the big picture thinker and like the really big creative force. I'm more like, I can make it
- [16:28]
B
happen, but I think the problems get bigger. So like in the beginning it's like the problems are not so big and so like we can individually, like just like pick and choose and tackle, but. But as the problem gets bigger, then it's like we individually can't even do it. Anymore. Like, we need a like team. We need each other. We need like, we just need more help to tackle these problems.
- [16:51]
A
And when you, uh, so like early days woobles, you're, you're sort of like realizing this is going to be a real business. Was it. Would you say it was customer just like thinking of that comment on like customer facing things like, would that. Was that customer driven? Like were you talking to customers and realizing like, oh wait, we might have something here or was there something else that told you like, no, this could be real?
- [17:17]
D
Uh, yes, definitely customer driven. One part of it was getting reviews and emails back to our customer service with people like ranting about how it changed their lives. Like, even though I tell this story about how crochet rebuilt my self confidence like a. It's different from like people calling our customer service line, which at the time was my phone number and like literally crying because this thing made such a difference to them. So an example of that would be a woman who, yeah, I picked up the phone call, she was crying and I was like, oh no, we've like totally effed up. So upset at us. And instead it was actually that she had brain cancer and a piece of her brain had been removed. And ever since then she said that her hand eye coordination has not been very good and neither like the part of her brain for counting and math and things like that. And that this kit was the first thing that she's ever done by herself that didn't make her feel dumb. And so she was like so happy about it and like realizing that these things that look like they're just cute little nuggets of happiness, like actually make such a big impact on people's lives. I think is what made us realize like there's legs here, there's a real connection here.
- [18:31]
A
Have you. Man, I have so many questions on that. One of my theories with consumer is that there is no such thing as product market fit. There is simply like it's like a moving target in consumer and like what we learn early on may not actually apply later on about like why a customer buys things like basically like the problem with consumer and the reason that our revenue is not considered durable as an industry is that the consumer is so damn fickle, right? And like why they buy things is changing all the time with the woobles that this like Justine, what I'm hearing is like this thing started from a like personal journey. Like it's anxiety and self discovery and all that stuff, right? And then customers resonated with this. They also echoed the same thing back as the company has gotten older. Is that still true or would you say that the reason that people buy the Woobles today has evolved and changed into like new directions that you didn't even see coming?
- [19:34]
D
I think there's definitely still a segment of people who are connected because of the mental health aspects of it. I think our biggest insight is starting two years ago, we started doing these in person birthday bashes for our business anniversaries. So meeting the super fans there, there's definitely a crew of people where the Woobles has filled a hole in their heart for whatever various reasons. But then there's also a crew of people who are just like, it just makes me happy. It just brings me joy because look at them. Yeah.
- [20:10]
A
Are you mission driven founders then? Like, is that sort of core to the brand and core to the culture?
- [20:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think kind of like alluding to what Justine was talking about is like we early on, like, because we were customer service, like we would pick up all the phone calls, we'd read all the emails and very early on we saw kind of like the magic behind it. And I would say that kind of like you talking about product market fit, like, we, like there are many crochet kits that existed before us and I think it's less about like it being a crochet kit and it's, I think actually more. I think what we found really resonated was like the joy behind it. I think that, you know, sometimes people just need joy in their lives and, and we need joy in our lives. That's why we work on this product. And I think that's, that's the, that's the magic behind it. And that's where we're very mission driven, where we believe that we want to spread joy and confidence to the world and this is how we think we can do it.
- [21:08]
A
In those. I guess. Let me back up. You start getting that kind of feedback early on, right? That like, that clearly makes you guys, it clearly lights you up, right? Like everything is coming back to that. So like that is just so obvious that this is important. You is when you start to hit. Because I'm sure like every journey you start to hit like some amount of struggle in the business.
- [21:32]
B
Right?
- [21:33]
A
Like almost all growth comes with pain. So as the business evolves and grows and there's struggle, like I am curious if there was like any sort of personal sacrifice or moments where like maybe that, that like the, the good vibes wasn't enough or started to feel like, oh my God, this is really hard, right? Or did is like having this sort of, like, anchor in. We just make people feel so good, we'll figure it out. Like, did that. Was that always true?
- [22:03]
B
That's a good question. This journey is filled with ups and downs. And I would say, like, when we're most down, the one luxury we have is that there are no investors at the Woobles. And so for us, we don't feel this personal pressure to give shareholder returns or to hit quarterly growth numbers. And so when we say we're mission driven, we're truly mission driven in that we have the luxury to say we're only doing this because we believe this spreads joy. And so when things are really down for a business reason of marketing's harder, or we're hitting supply chain issues, we have the luxury of just stepping back to say we're doing this to spread joy. And so we don't have all this excess pressure of we need to hit the returns or we. We need something to happen. And so for us, it actually makes it a lot easier when things get really tough. We're like, well, how do we improve the product? Like, are we. Are we still putting out the best product that we can make to bring happiness and joy to people? And I think it helps us frame the problems a little bit better, and it helps us almost at times just kind of, like, ignore massive problems and just like, reset and be like, well, this is what really matters to us.
- [23:13]
C
So, okay, here's my question. What are you selling at the end of the day? Because it sounds like you're not really selling fabric or crocheting. So what do you feel like you sell with your business?
- [23:29]
D
We. We call it fiero. That's a term that, as far as I understand, comes from the video gaming world. It is that feeling that you get when you do something that you once thought was impossible. It's like in Pokemon, when you defeat that gym boss. And it's a very hard feeling to get in the real world. So that's really the feeling that we're, I guess, selling or spreading, I would say.
- [23:51]
C
I love that joy. I love that idea that. Because all of us know what that feels like and how satisfying and fulfilling it is when you've done something that you didn't know if you could do. And so you're really selling the ability for people to unlock that and to experience that.
- [24:09]
B
It's a feeling that you feel a lot when you're younger, because when you're younger, you have school, you have soccer practice, you have piano Lessons like you're exposed to all of these things that are designed to kind of give you this sense of accomplishment and confidence. And we find that as you get older, some people at times just stop getting that feeling of fear. And that's why we think it's really important that we continue to be able to work on things that can help spread firo. We think that it's, it's critically needed, especially if it's something that you haven't felt in a long time.
- [24:42]
C
I think it's such a good point because people are rational about how they spend their money, but not necessarily in the ways that you would think. Like they're, they're, they're using their money to try and get after things, you know. And this is why if you're, you know, trying to sell sports cars to men, you're not actually trying to sell them a car. You're trying to sell them an image or a feeling of being younger or, you know, whatever else or a way that the opposite sex will look at them or whatever. And so I find this fascinating about the way that we as humans use money is that even in consumer. A lot of the time what we're selling is not actually the functional thing. Like there is a functional thing people do with your products. But, but that's not really what they're after, why they're buying it. And that's not what you're trying to help them unlock. It's beautiful. Exactly.
- [25:28]
A
Here at Pela, Applovin is the most incremental in the new channel we tested in 2025 itself. Serve as manager. Axon is now open and they're offering you $5,000 in credits when you spend $5,000. Every single one of us is looking for that next best place to put our ad dollars. It is just one of the laws of D2C. There are now brands spending six figures a day on Applovin. That kind of blows my mind, but it is true. And there are brands that are running it as their number two and number three channel after Meta and Google. That is super impressive. You would be foolish to at least not try it out in 2026. Go to 9operators.com app lovin to give it a shot. Oh, you'll also get access to the live operators Mastermind. We ran with over 25 E commerce heavyweights plus our step by step playbook to channel expansion. 9 operators.com Apple let's get back to the show. Adrian, can I go back? You made a comment about like or. Or maybe Justine. It was you talking about how you don't have shareholders. So like, at the end of the day you're not trying, you're not trying to like get some kind of return and that you're here to like spread joy and help people feel this sort of sense of accomplishment. Early on though, there must have been some part of this was like, okay, we like what you said, we need to pay rent. How long at the beginning did it take until you went from sort of like scarcity, oh my God, we gotta pay rent to oh, hey, this works. What are we actually optimizing towards? Like, can you give it just for the listeners like this, the time gap.
- [27:09]
B
In some ways it's like we're still in the sticker city mindset. But I would say that the biggest thing, one of the unique things about this was that this is, we're not building. Like this doesn't require a huge amount of capital expenditure up front. A lot of this we were able to do ourselves. And so like, that's exactly what we did. We were customer service, we were manufacturing. We made these on Sunday nights with our parents. We were distribution. We shipped that product out of my parents garage for like a year and a half, just us two and my dad. We literally did everything. I was the media buyer. Justine made the creatives. Um, Justine filmed all the content. Um, and so in the beginning we did everything.
- [27:55]
D
And so great way to save money, but not, yeah,
- [28:01]
B
save money. You're really lowering your expenses when you're doing everything. But if I look back and I'm like, if we're do it again, that's a hundred percent the right way to do it, in my opinion. Because then when it came time to go hire people, we knew exactly what we were looking, looking for. We knew exactly like what, what were the things that actually mattered in different roles and what were the things that we thought success looked like. And so it, it still took some time, you know, it, it probably took us, I mean it frankly took us a year and a half before you're like, okay, let's go hire someone. Right? And so it take, it took, I think, but it's probably also more of our personality. Like we're, I think we're roll up our sleeves and like, let's do it ourselves type of people. And so that's why it took us so long to hire people.
- [28:49]
A
Who were the first hires?
- [28:50]
D
Two and a half year. Two and a half.
- [28:53]
A
Two and a half years.
- [28:56]
B
All the. Yeah, those are some long days where like you're trying to black about in My memory.
- [29:01]
A
Adrian, you don't know this, but you're actually 85 years old and you've been building the woo bolts for 60 years.
- [29:08]
C
This is the dog years thing. I. It's like Paul Graham has a great essay on this that startups are like time compression machines. And so it's like sometimes I'm like, I'm only 46, but, like, whatever. It's been, I guess almost 17 years in entrepreneurship. That's got to be like the equivalent of like three or four careers worth of, like, knowledge that's been crammed into my head because it's just like drinking through a fire hose constantly, right?
- [29:33]
B
Yeah. And, you know, I think about that comment where I'm like, in the moment. It doesn't always feel that way. It doesn't always feel like I'm learning so much. Like in, like in our first two years of grinding, like, it never felt like, oh, like I'm like, like learning a ton.
- [29:49]
D
I never had a moment where like, I'm so grateful and for this learning opportunity, I was a lot more like, ah, after the computer shift is the manufacturing shift.
- [29:58]
B
Yeah, but. But in retrospect, you're like, you're a hundred percent correct. Like, we did learn so much, we just weren't aware of it at the time.
- [30:05]
A
Yeah, I love listening to people talk about how, like, failure is. You learn through failure. They just forget to mention that failure feels like failure in the moment or like, hard work just feels like hard work. Guys. Doesn't feel like learning on a Tuesday when I worked 20 hours.
- [30:23]
C
Okay, what was your term earlier? What was the term of accomplishment earlier?
- [30:27]
D
Yeah.
- [30:28]
C
Okay, Fiero. Did I say that right? Yeah. So it's ironically, this is one of the reasons why startups are so addictive is Fiero, is that it's like I'm right at the edge of is this all going to crash and burn? And then somehow it doesn't. And it feels so great, you know? And so we're insane people that are addicted to Fiero.
- [30:48]
A
Who. Who was the first hire? Guys, like, what. What was the role?
- [30:52]
B
I would say, well, the really early hires were like, people help us ship impact, like distribution. But I'd say the first corporate hire was my cousin. So she now leads. We hired her to lead marketing, which is still leads marketing for us.
- [31:07]
A
No way.
- [31:08]
B
And it was easy hire.
- [31:10]
A
Terrible advice for everybody listening. Don't do that.
- [31:13]
D
This is a family business. In case anyone has any questions.
- [31:17]
C
I have done the family business thing. And the way I tell people is it's like A roller coaster. There's a lot of highs and a lot of lows when you do a family business.
- [31:25]
B
Yeah. But I mean, it's worked out. She's an integral part of why the Woobles is the Woobles today. And it kind of like, you know, we. We have a hundred percent trust in each other. And we also have that same level of trust with my cousin because obviously I've known her. Her pretty much her entire life and so, like, it. It makes it so much easier in the beginning that, like, we just trust each other, that we're making the right decisions when. With the information we have at any time. And that allows you to move so much faster.
- [31:57]
D
How.
- [31:57]
A
How old is the business now? We are in terms like just total years.
- [32:01]
B
Five and a half.
- [32:01]
A
Let's get back to how.
- [32:03]
B
Five.
- [32:03]
A
How old we are. Five and a half years.
- [32:04]
B
Okay.
- [32:07]
A
What do you guys want to be known for? You're five and a half years in. And if you look forward, like, what is the thing?
- [32:15]
D
Us personally or the brand? I'm assuming the brand.
- [32:17]
C
No, you.
- [32:18]
A
The brand. I mean, you personally, I think, I think there's like, you strike me as the kind of people that, like, I mean, you put a Wooble on your wedding cake. Just you and the brand are pretty close. So what do you would. What would you like to be known for?
- [32:33]
D
My immediate thought when you said that was like, we should be launching this other line of products, Woobles, for your weddings. But anyway, in terms of what we want, I mean, for me, I personally want to be known for someone who gave it my all that like, I tried my best and whatever it was, whatever role that I had, whether it's like founder, mother, wife, like I mentioned earlier, I'm someone who's like, I don't want to have any regrets, and I want to make sure that I exhausted the options and tried my very best until the end.
- [33:03]
B
Yeah. And for me, like, I want to. I actually prefer not to be. I. I want the. The brand to shine. I want the brand to be remembered for something that spreads joy and confidence. But I want my role to just be someone who had a, you know, had a fun time, was able to spread joy. But I don't particularly want to be remembered for much aside from being a good husband and being a good father, and those are the things I truly care about. But then from a work standpoint, I want to be known for, like, helping this brand spread joy.
- [33:34]
C
Does work ever pull against that about
- [33:37]
D
being a good, like, partner, parent, stuff like that?
- [33:41]
C
Do you ever feel that and if so, how.
- [33:44]
D
I think I feel it a lot more. I, in general, have more feels than Adrian.
- [33:50]
C
Wow.
- [33:51]
A
We're all shocked.
- [33:53]
C
You need. In every marriage, you need one thinker and one feeler to balance it out.
- [33:57]
B
Right?
- [33:57]
A
Right.
- [33:58]
D
Yeah, I struggle with that a lot because we also have two young children, two and a half years old and 10 months old. And it's like, you know, there's just only so many hours in the day. But I realize it actually comes down to energy, how much energy you have in a day. Um, so I do feel like sometimes it's at odds and it's like a gotta figure out. They're all our children at the end of the day. Plus we have a dog.
- [34:25]
A
Um, Adrian, you. So your first, like, corporate hire is. Is your cousin and you're. You, I think. Justine, you said you're a family business. If you haven't, like, clearly.
- [34:35]
B
Right.
- [34:36]
A
Is there. If. If somebody's listening to this and they're. They are actually working with somebody in their family or they're thinking about working with someone in their family, is there, like, something that you have learned in this journey so far that you think is worthy of sharing for other people that are in a similar situation?
- [34:58]
B
I think the kind of what you're alluding to earlier, having really clear lanes, like, you don't necessarily want to bring on a family member to do exactly what you do, because then that's where disagreements form. Right. But if it's like, if everyone has something that you're really good at and that's where they're focusing their energy, then that's. It's an incredible thing because then, because you have a hundred percent trust, you can just trust that, like, that area is being given the attention that it needs, and there's less conflict because, like, it gives you. It's opening up time for you to again worry about something else on the business. So I'd say the. The having clear lanes is a. Really reduces the. The like what people fear about, like, working with family or working with a spouse.
- [35:41]
D
But I also really think it depends on the relationship. Like, Adrian's family relationships are very different than my family relationships. And so it's. You know, we've mentioned trust a few times. It really comes down to how much do you trust them. Are they the type of family that you like, a hundred percent trust or not?
- [35:59]
A
Yeah, I. Well, I mean, I've definitely got some friends who. They're. They're. They're not high trust families, so I identify with that. You're early On. I think one of the interesting things about. There's so many things about the Woobles that I find so fascinating, which is why we wanted to have you guys on here. Other than just the fact that you're both awesome. Early on, you, like, the business is not that old, which I find so incredible. Early on, you actually go on Shark Tank,
- [36:31]
C
right.
- [36:31]
A
And you asked for. I don't. I forget the amount, but like, you asked for a certain amount of money for a certain percentage because that's like the whole Shark Tank thing. And I think everybody makes you an offer. Right? Is. Is what I remember from this story. Like, you all make an offer and then you land on one of them, but then you walk away from the deal. I don't want to know why you walked away. I would like to know what you think made the Wooble so attractive that they all saw. Like, what did they all see?
- [37:00]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think it is that they believe, like, how you do anything is how you do everything. And so when you're on Shark Tank, before you get on stage even they have your product out at the judges tables. I remember seeing Laurie inspecting the packaging and. And we constantly get feedback that our packaging is really eye catching because we do like, we did put a lot of thought into that. The colors, the layout, the words, everything. And so, like, I think they could tell that we put a lot of care into what we put out into the world. And even down to the, like, little details that we decided, like, we would skip onto stage because, yeah, we're a brand about, like, levity. We're not just gonna like stroll in there. And then there's the business answer of we also had proven existing revenue. Like, existing demand.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah. The. You mentioned packaging, Justine. I don't. I think years ago, I forgot about how many years ago you and I got on a call to talk retail. I don't even remember how we got introduced. I forget. And maybe it was David Herman at some point, but we started, we talked retail and after this, Mike, Justine sends. I get like, I think you. I got a whole box of Wooble stuff.
- [38:17]
D
Yes. Including a Barbie Dream House.
- [38:20]
A
Yeah. And a bar. Yeah, the Barbie Dream House. Right. And I got. I have a now 10 year old daughter and like, I open up this box of Woobles things and the first thing my wife, who's a designer, says is, my God, the packaging's good.
- [38:34]
D
Yeah, the first thing.
- [38:36]
A
And I'm like, this is not a knock on my wife. But like, she doesn't compliment much. Like her standard for design is very high. I don't think I ever passed that feedback on what you're mentioning now. I'm like, oh yeah, that was really good.
- [38:50]
C
It's so interesting, Matt. Like we, we have this debate all the time inside simple, modern of like how much should you invest in packaging if you're primarily an E commerce company? Because when you're in physical retail it's like, well you definitely need, I mean it's very important. But with E commerce they've already bought it and, and it's going to go in the trash. But like you're saying like it really does impact the way that people, the unboxing experience and like kind of the bias people go into the product with. And so we've always leaned on. A good example for us is like we do kids drinkware and like if you buy a Lightning McQueen cup, it comes in a like cars themed box which is beautiful, but it also costs us like 50 cents, you know, and then it goes right in the trash. And so it's like should we do that or should we save that money? And we've, we've always gone back and forth. But I think you're right, like the wow experience really counts.
- [39:48]
D
Yeah. And to be clear, we didn't actually arrive. The reason why we have the packaging we have now is because we bluffed our way saying we had retail ready packaging for a big retailer back in the day. Originally it was totally handmade. Like we would, Adrian and his dad especially have hand stamped tens of thousands probably of kits. And then like pretty early on we happened to turn on ads in Canada and the buyer for Loblaws saw the ad. Loblaws from my understanding is like the Walmart of Canada.
- [40:25]
A
It's pretty important here.
- [40:28]
D
And so we were like, is this legit? And then when we got confirmation that yes, it is a legit brand, we were like, oh shoot, like it's maybe August.
- [40:36]
B
They emailed us in September, September.
- [40:38]
D
And we were like they probably want like they're saying they want a holiday placement. Like how are we going to physically make so many kits by this November, December? This is how new we were to retail. And we like made like fake mock ups of a retail repackaging because otherwise it would just be like a canvas bag with a hand stamped logo on it. And that's really what like we eventually did get the button. And that's when we were like, all right, we gotta figure out this retail ready packaging thing so it pops on the shelf.
- [41:10]
A
How you mentioned the Barbie Dreamhouse thing. How long into the business before you guys started licensing product, probably two and
- [41:19]
B
a half years in down there. Um, we just.
- [41:25]
A
We had.
- [41:26]
B
That's something that customers told us that they really wanted. We would. We would get a lot of emails being like, hey, like, could we get XYZ license? A lot of peanuts. All bunch of different licenses. And for us at the time, we were like, it just sounds impossible. Like, we don't come from this world. We don't know anything about licensing. And so for us, it was, like, such a daunting task. We're like, no idea how to get started. And. And so it was a bit of a journey to get our first license.
- [41:53]
A
I mean, Mike, I know you have a lot of experience with license licensing. I find licensing a fascinating topic for brands. We've talked extensively in our groups about licensing, and I would love, Justine, Adrian, if you could just maybe give us a bit of color on, like, how did you get into it?
- [42:11]
B
Right?
- [42:11]
A
How did you even figure out this was an option? Was it hard to secure?
- [42:15]
C
What was your first license?
- [42:16]
B
That's. That's the question.
- [42:17]
D
Yeah.
- [42:17]
A
What was the first one? And, like, tell us. Tell us how you got here.
- [42:20]
B
Yeah, we. We knew our customers wanted it. So our customers would write in and they would ask, like, can do you guys do licensed characters? Can you guys do XYZ character? And out of the blue, someone from the Very Hungry Caterpillar had emailed us and asked us if we'd be interested. And we're like, of course we would be like, let's get on our call immediately. And so we're asking her, you know, like, how does this work, basically? And she's like, well, are you going to licensing expo? And we're like, what is it? And then she's like, well, it's like, it's literally like next week in Vegas. Like, that's where, like, you should really go. Uh, and we had keyword here.
- [42:57]
D
She also was like, it's free.
- [42:59]
B
Oh, yes. Okay. It was free. That it being free really sealed the deal for us. Um, and so we showed up, no idea how. We just thought, like, you know, it's this expo and all these brands are there. This is perfect. We brought the product and, like, we're gonna. We're ready to, like, go pitch our hearts out to all these brands. And we went out to all the booths, and we were like, hey, can we meet with someone who, like, can help us with these crochet kits? And the immediate question is, like, when's your appointment? And we're like, we don't have an appointment and we're like, oh well, like, yeah, we're fully booked. And so like nobody would talk to us. And so what we did was we basically.
- [43:37]
D
So what we did is I got Covid and so then I couldn't attend anymore.
- [43:41]
B
Yeah. So, so day day two, we were only went for two days. So day one, we did it together, didn't talk to anybody. Day two just do gets.
- [43:50]
D
Hey wait. We did talk to many people. They just all rejected.
- [43:52]
B
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [43:53]
D
We talked to many receptors.
- [43:54]
B
We talked to a bunch of receptionists but didn't. Didn't make it past receptionist. Justine got Covid. And then so second day was just me. I had like the, you know, a whole bag of rubles. I know like, well, I got nothing to lose. It's like this like I'm leaving tomorrow, so I am going to pitch my hard app and like perfected my pitch. Like it was like you get like infinite tries. Almost like you go to a booth, try a pitch, it doesn't work. I haven't improved this pitch. And then like towards the end we pitched. I went up to the Bandai booth and like really pitched my heart out. I'm like at this point, like I've already practiced this pitch so many times and told them about our journey and told them about. And this is like before our Shark Tank episode aired. So like this is like not many people knew about the brand and so like, you know, really trying to share what we're trying to do. And the receptionist was like, you know, I normally never do this but like, let me, let me see if he's free right now. And then we got to share our story and he took a bet on us. And so Pac man ended up being our second license just with the timing, but, but that was the first licensing deal that we closed.
- [45:04]
C
I love that those are both great options. And actually one of the things you said that's non licensing related that I think is worth highlighting. I think E commerce is amazing for optimizing your message. I think talking to people in real life is still undefeated when it comes to dialing in the general zip code. Your message should be in like the way that you talked about just going conversation to conversation and being very rapidly kind of figuring out what your pitch needed to be. I, I think to some extent like the ability to use meta and these, these bid big ad algorithms sometimes kind of makes us stupider when it comes to like how do we actually pitch our product and then yeah, you can get all the way dialed in with like, these tools. But my.
- [45:51]
A
My biggest.
- [45:52]
C
I love hearing licensing stories because my biggest learning about licensing is that it's like a castle, and the castle's drawbridge is up, and you want in the castle, and you want what they have in the castle. You want to offer their licenses. But not only is the castle's drawbridge up, but, like, they're shooting arrows at you. There's crocodiles in the moat. They're like, go away. You know, there's heads on spikes outside the castle. And. And so you're like, man, these people do not want to talk to me. They hate me. And. But then if you get inside the castle, all of a sudden, they treat you like the team, and that's licensing in a nutshell. They. They don't believe that you're going to help their business, but then if you somehow do get licensed and you start making them money, then they love you. And it's. It's always getting, like, that credibility. And it sounds like you guys were able to do it with Hungry Caterpillar and Pac man, which is also awesome to me because we haven't even used those licenses. There's so many different front doors that you can use to prove your product, and you use two that we haven't even touched it.
- [46:53]
B
Yeah.
- [46:53]
D
Just to clarify, we actually didn't move forward with the Hungry Caterpillar?
- [46:57]
C
The Hungry Caterpillar made you want to go and get a license? I got it.
- [47:02]
B
Well, we still talked to her. Vivi is the person that reached out to us, and we. She has helped us quite a lot in our journey.
- [47:08]
C
What's your best licensed product you've ever done?
- [47:12]
B
I would say my favorite ones are like Snoopy, I like Peanuts.
- [47:24]
A
Is there a difference?
- [47:25]
B
I know.
- [47:25]
A
Is there a difference between your favorite ones and the ones that perform the best?
- [47:30]
D
Oh,
- [47:32]
C
yeah.
- [47:33]
D
Yes.
- [47:33]
B
I mean, there's. There's definitely a difference, because Justine really likes.
- [47:37]
D
Wait, you think I'm gonna say BT21, which, yes, I'm a BTS fan, but that is not my favorite license.
- [47:43]
B
Totally gonna guess. BT21.
- [47:45]
D
I constantly joke that I'm like, I want to get more tickets as part of this license relationship, but no, my favorite.
- [47:54]
C
We actually give out BTS4 tickets with every interview, so that's already coming as part of the package today.
- [47:59]
D
Oh, my gosh. I need to apply. No, I mean for. In terms of licenses for things that we've made, the ones that I think are really awesome is basically anything with a box that turns into some awesome scene, which is like Harry Potter. Lord of the Rings. It's that Barbie Dreamhouse type of experience that.
- [48:19]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [48:20]
D
That we sent Matt. Yeah. Those I love the most. And then like packaging design wise, like the Scooby Doo ones I thought were really clever the way we did.
- [48:30]
C
We did the packaging design on that.
- [48:32]
B
It's usually the magic happens when you, like, because our team is so large now, like for any license, there's usually someone in our company who is a huge super fan of that license. And I think Lord of the Rings is a really good example. We have a lot of people on our team who love Lord of the Rings and so we bring them into the conversation. We're like, what can we do to make this special? What are the little details that we should really care about? And so how do we make this immersive packaging of using the elvish script and all the different details inside the box and creating something that only a real super fan would know what all the little meanings things are. And I think that's where the real magic happens for us.
- [49:12]
C
And that's the magic of licensing. When it's done well, it's not like a money grab. It's like intellectual property that people are really emotionally attached to and want to interact with and giving them cool ways to interact with it. We have a friend, Jonathan Bame, that has a company theory 11 that does playing decks of playing cards that are these amazingly intricately well thought out decks that incorporate these things. Or like he just came out with a Harry Potter coloring book that does the thing where, like, you flip it one way and the pages are blank and you flip it the other way and they're colored from the movies. I think that that's the magic. We saw a lot of kids drinkware and it's like when my kids were that age, like, it just made their world, these characters made their world. And this is part of what business can be at its best is that when we're able to use our time to not just create products that people want to buy, but that actually, actually bring like some kind of joy to their life. And I, I love, I love being able to be a part of doing it. Sounds like you guys are, are doing it at a pretty exceptional level.
- [50:15]
A
Can we talk? I. I actually want to dig into this. The product thing is really interesting to me. The Wubels makes a lot of product. Like you're, you're a design. It's. I feel like I, if I describe your business, I tell people, like, you're a design company, like you're constantly like releasing new patterns. New designs.
- [50:31]
B
Right.
- [50:32]
A
What? You're laughing. I want to know why. So what. What is the mix on the team of people who work on product versus, you know, supply chain marketing? Like, are you guys still involved heavily in the product? Like, it just feels like it takes so much effort and in thoughtfulness to make what you guys make.
- [50:54]
B
Yeah.
- [50:55]
D
Let's see. Well, I was laughing because I. Or I was smiling because I was like. I feel very validated in many of the comments that you've been making, Matt, like, you're hacking.
- [51:04]
A
I'm just here to make you feel good, Justine.
- [51:06]
B
That's it.
- [51:08]
D
Good thing. The bribe earlier works. Now, I would say the two biggest teams are product and marketing, because product for us is more than just what people see on the outside. It's not just the crochet pattern. It's not just the packaging. It's also the video tutorial reels. So it's like a bunch of very, very different skills. And then marketing, just because there's, like, different marketing channels, is also big. Our ops team is tiny for the longest time, basically was Adrian and his dad. And so we definitely should be amping that up.
- [51:44]
B
Yeah, the product. Yeah, product team is like one of our. Like, is like the most important core vertical. And so, like, we. We care a lot about. I mean, ultimately, like, product is like, what we care most about.
- [51:58]
D
And then forgot what the second part of that question was. Oh, if we're still really involved.
- [52:03]
A
Yeah, I guess, like, how much if. If pro. I mean, product is so important. That's obvious. So I ask, how much time do you guys spend on product in a week versus other parts of the business? Just founder. Like, I'm in the weeds. I gotta put energy into something thing.
- [52:18]
D
I mean, for me, it's mostly product stuff. For you, you're, like, handling everything else.
- [52:24]
B
Yeah, I do everything else, but I'll still chime in. It doesn't shock me away from trying to make product decisions. But yeah, it's Justine's baby, basically. And so she cares a lot about getting all the details right and making sure we're making something that we can be proud of and that our customers will. Will enjoy and. And get joy out of.
- [52:49]
D
But I mean, also, we do have. We have an amazing team, so I actually don't have to get that involved in nitty gritty all the time now, except for when we're spinning up radically new things and then. And then it starts again.
- [53:02]
A
Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, I mean, it's. I think one of the cool things that we get to do is as entrepreneurs is like, choose the kind of work that we get to do every day. You know, like, we build teams and as the companies get bigger, there's like, people that we hire and we hope that they're better than us at places. But I, I, the thing I love the most is I get to go play. Like, if I'm interested in something, it's like, I can choose to do this because I'm the boss. This is like, I'm gonna go join the pro, like the software team this week because I want to go mess around over there. Like, I think that's the best part of the job, is just choice and freedom to move around. Can you, I'd love to know. Like, so you've mentioned product. That's like the most important. That's the team that like, leads with. It's sort of like that's the company, right? That's the, it's product based. You mentioned marketing being the other large part of the organization. I would really like to know, and I'm sure people would, over the last five and a half years, how has marketing, the wooble shifted? Like, where did you start? How did you, like, get your first customers? And then today, what does marketing look like?
- [54:09]
B
Yeah, that's an excellent question. Early on, marketing is where, like, you experience these, like, the biggest roller coaster rides, right? Like, especially if you're doing like Facebook marketing or meta marketing, performance marketing in general, it's just like that is just you're signing up for a drastic roller coaster ride. Um, and you know, the, I would say the how we do marketing is still very much dependent. But in my eyes, the very best type of marketing is just having really great products. If you have an exceptional product that's something you're proud of, then all your marketing really needs to do is to tell people that this thing exists and that's sufficient. And so like, that's like a holy rail for me of like, you know, that's the very best type of marketing. So, like, how are we going to create a product that can allow us to achieve that is like what we're striving to do. And so I would say our marketing messaging is generally always centered around just telling people, like, this is something that you can do, like, you're capable of doing this. It looks like, you know, right now it's a pile of yarn. But like, we really believe that you can turn it into a penguin, and we're just here to kind of help you on that journey.
- [55:25]
A
And you started off Adrian, like you did the, the Facebook ads at the beginning. Like you, you were the media buyer. You probably, you both did everything and now today you have a, a full team. You're also, you were also very, I feel like you were early to the whole like we're just going to produce YouTube videos and tutorials and content. How, how does like if the product team, Justine is like, they're doing all the tutorials, how does that interface with marketing? Because like that those both feel like marketing activities. Making content from product and then like promoting, I guess, or like, you know. Yeah, amplifying.
- [56:04]
D
To be honest, they're totally not related. Carol. Now you're making me think there's a huge gap here, that maybe the tutorials that you're talking about are the YouTube tutorials, which are not the ones that are kit. Yeah, the YouTube tutorials were just first filmed in his parents kitchen and then, and then in my parents basement by me for. To build out the stuff that's publicly available like on our site as generic stitches. But why there is a whole product team behind the making tutorials for our kids. Is it like a whole beast behind it? We have like a custom made web app that serves essentially TikTok style video snippets of like a minute or less that break down the crocheting process into like what we call micro steps. So those are very like, I don't feel like people watching social media would want would be like, ooh, how eye catching and interesting. It's a yellow with some yarn on it.
- [57:03]
B
The content is only good when you also have the physical fortune to go put the content.
- [57:11]
A
Was there a in this in the last five and a half years, was there a stage of growth that was particularly difficult?
- [57:18]
D
Yes, becoming the grand bosses, becoming grand boss of the team. I mean, but that's my take because again, the whole, the whole origin of this is me not appreciating being a manager. And so it's very ironic to have kind of grown to a spot where I kind of am again, but trying not to be.
- [57:39]
C
How are you a different manager now? So you went through your career, you got to a point where you're like, I'm having all this anxiety from being a manager. I don't like this. I want to do something else. And then you're back obviously in a different context where you're doing something you're passionate about. But I'm curious, how are you approaching it? I'm hoping it doesn't give you anxiety now. How do you approach it? Differently where you're enjoying this experience more than your previous experience.
- [58:05]
D
Experience. Yeah. I'm trying to actually play to my strengths and just accept that this is not really something that brings me much joy to be a manager. So like I feel like, you know, a really big theme and that the Woobles has had for me is made me realize like I really enjoy making stuff. Like that's the whole reason why I had some struggle with being manager. Why I'm saying being a grand boss is difficult because it's like I don't find, I don't find fulfillment in like having conversations and hoping somebody implements my feedback. Right. I, I find more joy and fulfillment from being able to at the end of the day point at something and be like, I made that thing. Um, like even recently I've been making wireframes for like our website ad landing pages and I'm like, yeah, like in Figma. And I'm like, that's my jam. So I guess the kind of unfortunate thing is that like I did, I tried my hand up being a better manager. I would like to think that people don't think that I'm a terrible manager. But I also like recognize that the impact that I can have on the business of like becoming better at this versus hiring that out and doing what I'm already really good at, like is outsized so I should just focus on what I'm good at.
- [59:18]
C
It takes a while to get to the point where you have the confidence to say I'm going to lead out of my strengths and probably my management style is going to look different than people I read about in books or other things and like kind of comfortable in my own skin. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Like there's no more, there's no better way to make yourself miserable than to try and be the leader that somebody else is and, and not be the leader that you can be.
- [59:44]
B
Yeah.
- [59:46]
A
Takes an incredible amount of self awareness to do that too. Which in a weird way, Justine, makes you a better leader than most people. I know a lot, I know a lot of leaders who are terrible. They're not self aware at all and they're in positions of leadership. And I'm like, I don't know how you do this when you're not, when you don't know that you're an asshole. Like, like it's a basic thing.
- [60:07]
D
I will say I feel like I'm good at, I am good at listening to. The difference of being the founder this time is that like I, I have more Visibility into everything. So it's like, if there is, like, decisions that have to be made, it's like, I can get that information. I can balance, like, lots of different things.
- [60:25]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. You're one of the things that strikes me about both of you and the Woobles is you've been building this business for five and a half years. Adrian, you mentioned you've got, like, a number of employees now. I don't know if you guys want to share, like, how many people you work at the company, and I just think it's so cool that you've built up a team.
- [60:47]
B
Right.
- [60:48]
A
And. And that, like, this thing is turning. It's a real business now. But you're. The thing that strikes me with the two of you is you are not very public about the business.
- [61:00]
B
Right.
- [61:01]
A
Like, you're very public about the product, but not about, like, the business part. This is gonna seem like an odd question, but, like, why don't you flex more? Like, what's the. What's the upside of staying kind of, like, behind the radar? Like, behind the sort of the curtain? Yeah. I mean, do you think about this much? Like, I'm just curious. Like, having met you guys, you're so. You come across so humble and so, like, you know, but what you do is impressive. Like, the product is not, like, it's not an easy product to make, and it's not an easy company to build.
- [61:35]
B
I think part of it is just our nature. Like, we're not the type of people who. Who want to brag or, like. And ultimately, for us, like, it's like, we. We love this for. For the doing the making part of building really great products. And, like, we don't want to distract, like, distract from that. We want people to discover the Woobles because they found something that brings them joy. We don't want people to discover the boobles because it's gotten PR on how it does business or how it does XYZ really well. And so for us, it's just, like, we want to keep the focus on. On our overall mission of just spreading firo and spreading joy and confidence is when you.
- [62:13]
D
And, yeah, like, when you ask, what is it you want to be remembered for? I mean, I. It's ironic because I think I am kind of. I am the face of the business. There is still a lot of ads and content with me in it. People will recognize me. Right. Um, but I actually don't like that at all. Like, I'm. I am a very private person. I actually originally tried to make this business without doing videos. Cause I. That's like, I don't want to be. I don't want to have to use my voice. I don't want to use my face. And like I said before, like, I just like to make stuff. And I. And like, I want people to appreciate the product for the product being awesome. It's like. And I'm doing it for the self fulfillment, not for the pats on the back. Like, you know, get being more public about how the business is going. I'm like, I don't really need that. And also, that's like some meeting time. Take it. And like, time to do.
- [63:06]
A
Yeah, I take it, Mike. And I can also explain the downsides of doing this in public if you'd like, but that's not what today's show is about.
- [63:13]
D
I have questions where I'm like, what's the upside of doing this?
- [63:16]
A
Yeah. I was going to say, as I was asking, I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
- [63:21]
C
I alternate between, I want to be out there, I want to be helping people, I want to be talking, I want to be meeting, and I want to go live on an island and not talk to anyone. And just depending on the week, I think I violently swing between the two.
- [63:35]
A
One of my theories is every founder wants a farm. Like, I just want to go somewhere that's quiet and nobody bothers me. Maybe some chickens. There's a. There's a version of this story, and I'm sure you've thought of it, that the Woobles is a pandemic success. Like, there's There. I'm sure there's a timeline where this is true. You know, you're starting the company at, like, I don't know if you timed it this way, but you're starting the company at the beginning of a time when people are at home a lot more than they typically are. And that on the surface, you could easily make the argument that the Woobles is like, you're. It's like you just hit it timing wise. Why do you think the Woobles is still not just survi. It didn't just survive? Like, you've done very well and creating this community and this product that people love. Like, what. What is it that makes this business not that timeline, or it was just a pandemic success story?
- [64:36]
D
Dude, I think it's Fiero. I think that's the core.
- [64:39]
A
Yeah.
- [64:39]
D
It's the delivery of that feeling, especially in a time where people are, like, trapped at home and kind of like every day blurs together. We did get that question a lot early on about, like, how do you know this is not just like a, a pandemic hit and it'll last longer? And I truly do believe that people can sense when something is like really intentionally designed. I don't know how to like, explain it, but I just, I feel like the, the average consumer can tell when the, when there was like extra thought and care put into the design and the delivery of a product. I think that's what really helped it grow.
- [65:20]
A
Did you nail, like the first products that went out? Were they like, were they good enough right out of the gate or like the. Did the design of the product and how you got people to use it, did that take some time to get right?
- [65:35]
D
I would say it definitely took time. I'd say it took about two years to get to the iteration that we have now because before it was like made with off the shelf parts and stuff and trying to minimize, as I mentioned, my time recording things as I didn't want to be on camera. But like, there were early things that we discovered. For example, the yarn itself, like regular yarn, when people think of yarn is more like a rope, it frays. And when you watch people use it, it like they mess up because it gets stuck. And so then that's when we were like, oh, we should make yarn that's impossible to mess up in that way. So definitely. And then same thing with the videos. We started off with like making a generic longer video and then realized that people need things to be more step by step. And so like we did multiple iterations until we got to where we are now, which is like this super micro steppy model.
- [66:35]
A
I find, I think that the reason I keep hitting on product guys and Michael, I know we've talked about this. I don't think we talk enough about product development in consumer goods. Like, the conversation is almost always marketing. And we do not spend enough time as operators just talking about, like, what it takes to make a good product and how much iteration you go through and how much talking to customers you got to go through. And I find the best people spend so much time on product, like, that's the best brands. That's the difference.
- [67:09]
C
It's also interesting to me listening to you talk about product that. And this is probably true about many products now that I think about it, that it's not just about having a quote unquote great product. It's also about presenting it in a way to customers where they will use it in a way where they have a great experience. And that, that is actually part of product as well, is how the product is kind of communicated and positioned to them and set up for them to use it in a way where they, the great experience. And that, that, that part we really don't talk much about, Matt. And, and I can say that from experience. Like we had a, a tumbler where there was a lid, where it had this really elegant kind of locking mechanism where you just, you just gently pushed it down and it was like leak proof or if you pulled it up, you could drink out of it. And one of our friends, Katie actually texted me like a week after buying hers and she's like, I can't figure this out, I can't drink out of it. And I'm like, well you need, you need to pull up on the straw, Katie. But it was like, obviously I haven't done a good job of positioning even if the product's great, if people, if it's not obvious to people how to use it or to have an exceptional experience with it. And I think that this is a really fantastic example, especially because you're not even necessarily selling the crocheted thing. You're selling the experience of making the crocheted thing. And so like how have you thought about making it as accessible as possible for people to have a winning experience when they use your product?
- [68:39]
D
Yeah, this is all user experience design. So now I'm like, huh, yes, my background was helpful in creating this. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. It starts from the impression that people have. Right. Like, and that's also part of why we do licensing. If someone's like a Harry Potter fan, their drive to complete a Harry Potter kit is much higher than their drive to complete appear the Penguin K kit. As much as we love Peter the Penguin. So that's one way you start to set people up for success. Design something that they actually intrinsically are like, I really want that outcome. I don't really care about making a potholder. That's like usually the typical first crochet project. It's like you want to make something desirable and then we do all these little things to help you get over the hump. It's, there's like this theory called progressive disclosure, which is basically why Starbucks cards, like loyalty cards come pre stamped 1 out of 10 already. It's like if you start something for someone, they're more likely to finish it. But yeah, the endowed progress effect. So that's why we pre start the kits. It's the hardest part in crochet. It's like, you know, from testing it with my friends back in the day and then being like, oh my lordy, like, how are we supposed to be able to. To do anything at all if this is the first thing that happens? It's like you want people to have a really good. You want people to have wins early on, so it motivates them to keep on doing the harder things.
- [70:06]
C
Yeah. This is like the equivalent of getting your first 10 friends on Facebook. Right. They found out that that was the entire flywheel, is that your experience was going to be completely dictated by did you make those first 10 connections? And then once you did, it became a lot easier to enjoy the product. So how do you make sure that that pulls through in your marketing? What are the intentional steps you take that when you're telling the story you're advertising, that you make sure that that thoughtfulness and all of the thoughtfulness and how you're going to make them successful? Do you make sure that they hear that in the messaging?
- [70:38]
B
Yeah, that's really challenging. That's something that we might not even really know the answer to. We're still trying to figure that out, which is why I think we're a little bit unique in that we care so much more about product that maybe we don't need to figure out how to get the marketing exactly right. If we get the product really right, it lowers the pressure on how much marketing needs to succeed for us. And so not to say we don't try, we're still scientific about it. We're going to try all sorts of different ways of trying to explain how we sell those features or those features, but we don't have a problem solution type product. So a lot of the traditional marketing is actually quite hard to apply to our product because a lot of the features that we've designed are solving problems that you don't really know you have yet on your crochet journey. You really would only understand these problems exist if you've tried crocheting something else. And a lot of our customers, I've never tried to crochet anything before. And so that's what makes the marketing really challenging. And so, like, I'd say that I think that it's the naive answer of like, you know, maybe like we just, just need to make the product that much better or the bar is so much higher for the product. In that case,
- [71:57]
A
I, I so hear where you're coming from. Like, Pela Case is not a problem solution product. But our approach there, I mean, so one we looked at product and we said, like, there's so many things that we can do that are invisible to the person they're never going to care about. They'll. They. They don't even know that this is why they like the product.
- [72:15]
C
Yeah, right.
- [72:16]
A
Like, the feel of the material for us is a big one. Like, you spend a lot of time making sure that the case, like the material just feels nice to hold. But the other thing that we do is that we figured out we could show them problems they didn't know that they had and that that's been quite effective. Right. And that the brand was started with. Like, you didn't know that. You didn't even like that. This is worse than a straw. Like, this is the world's first compostable phone case. And people like, wait, yeah, I totally have that problem. I hate that I throw these things out every year. So I think you can kind of come at it from both sides of. Because I'm with you like the number of times I get marketing advice, guys, and I'm like, that sounds great. If you're selling Advil, it's like you have a headache. I can solve your headache. Like that. Most marketing advice falls into that problem solution, problem solution. And I think I really like that you're hitting on not every. There's a lot of categories that don't and that we have to be a lot more creative, probably a lot more product focused than the problem solution people do where they can just like find the wound and just dig their finger into it in marketing, like, that's kind of what they do. So I think it's great that you're doing that. Can I on the sort of like marketing product? Like can you share not numbers, but like just give us a general sense for like channel mix. Like how much do you guys do in retail versus direct consumer? Like, how do you think about that as you build the company? Or like what's, what's first, what's second? How do they mix together? Do you put products in certain channels, not others? Like just some of that more tactical stuff.
- [73:54]
B
We, we started as a D2C company. So that's kind of like our. How we learned how to market and how to build product and whatnot. And what ended up happening to us was early on iOS 14.6, like completely wrecked us. We realized one day like the, the thing that what was our channel to kind of tell the world that this thing exists suddenly just overnight completely stopped working for us. And so that's when we realized that that's something that's business ending for us where, like, if we are so reliant on this one channel, that's a huge amount of risk that you're taking. And so that's why early on we realized we needed to be able to have other channels of reaching our customers. And so slowly over time, then I think it's like building out our wholesale and retail relationships to be able to distribute our product. And it's a really interesting problem of, like, we have only so many SKUs and like, where do we sell them? Do we sell them on our site? Do we put them in wholesale? And our initial strategy was just. Just to put our core characters out in the wholesale. And like, if you want the expanded selection, it's much easier to manage inventory from one central location, that being our D2C site, than to try and figure out how we're going to like, allocate and send to all these different wholesalers across a bunch of different SKUs. And then what we quickly found out was that, like, people, one, people really loved seeing it in stores. Like, there are some people who just want to see the product before they buy it. And two, the store owner, like, we talk to our store kind of like how we talk to a lot of customers, we talk to a lot of store owners and they give the feedback of like, you know, people are coming into our stores asking for a specific thing on your site and if I have it in stock or not. And it really opened our eyes to like, you know, we, we need to be a little bit better on like, figuring out what are the different SKUs we should offer. And I think some things, it was like, understanding like, you know, at Gamestop, they're probably, we should probably have Minecraft and kind of like understanding the like, what SKUs belong where takes a lot of intentionality and a lot of effort.
- [76:11]
A
Your. Your iOS 14 is def. That comment's going to make some people have ptsd. And I think it's a, it's a wonderful reason to like, be like, oh man, we need channel diversity. But how do you reconcile that then with the joann fabrics filing for bankruptcy very publicly? The Woobles is listed as like, unsecured creditor number one, seven and a half million dollars. Like, at that point, was it like, iOS 14 sounds pretty awesome right now.
- [76:45]
B
What did that feel like?
- [76:46]
A
How did you even handle that?
- [76:47]
B
Like, that's.
- [76:48]
A
That's not a small amount of money, guys.
- [76:50]
B
That's.
- [76:50]
A
That's real.
- [76:51]
B
That's a. The most crazy part about it is if you look at that list of the rankings of, of the unsecured credit or. Yeah, unsecured vendors compared to some of the like very large multinational corporations on that list. We are but like a small mom and pop shop running out of like, it's just like, I don't like, it's ridiculous that like we ended up in the number one spot and, and a lot of that is actually on us, I think in that like we were new to the wholesale world. Like we're, we. We realized like this is a channel we want to build and never crossed our minds that a potential risk would be that the vendor you're doing business with would just declare bankruptcy and just not pay you for anything, but continue to sell your product. And I think it was a double whammy in that not only, you know, are we not paid for the product that they purchased, but they kept everything and they sold it. And so it's like a, it's a true double.
- [77:54]
D
Sold it at a huge discount.
- [77:55]
B
They would sell it. Yeah.
- [77:57]
D
Wreaks like havoc on everything.
- [77:58]
B
Yeah, it wreaks havoc on everything. And like all that work you put in to like build a quality product and now you have to compete against yourself on, on someone who like didn't even pay you for the product was quite, quite a wild roller coaster ride. An incredible learning opportunity. And how you there that.
- [78:17]
A
There it is again. Right? I learned a lot. It's like, tell me in the, in that moment though.
- [78:23]
B
Yeah, incredibly painful. Incredibly painful. But now we look back. Yeah, we certainly learned a lot.
- [78:31]
A
How, how much have you guys diversified channels over time? So like to go from, oh, I don't like Meta being reliant on Meta. Now I'm in retail. Do you then look at digital now, guys, and like you're, Are you everywhere? Are you like Meta, Google Applovin, TikTok. Fricking. I don't know John's ad platform, whatever. The next thing is like, are you trying to kind of like wherever the wobbles can be, we gotta go because we don't want any one of these people to be like, we don't be beholden to one of them. How do you think about sort of like channel mix today kind of in
- [79:08]
B
our, our company's DNA and our product. Like what we're really trying to show people is that like we use a term called we hope confidence is contagious. So if you can take a ball of yarn and turn it into a penguin, we hope that it's going to build some level of confidence for you to say, hey, I should Actually try this other. I've been wanting to learn how to play the guitar for the longest time. Let me try that. And so it's a philosophy for us of we want to step out of the comfort zone, we want to experiment and do new things. And so when it comes to like channel mix and like different ad platforms, our theory is very much like, kind of like, you know, just seems like I want to make sure I gave it my all. Like we, we will try and go and test everything as long as we have the capacity to do so and so like new things that like we're not, we don't want to be shied away from like trying new things and testing different things. And, and a lot of it is kind of all really goes back to like this user centered design process of like just being willing to like have a hypothesis and test it over and over again and take your learnings to hopefully do it better the next time. And so yeah, the answer to your question is like, yeah, like we will try all of every ctv, like we'll try everything to see what we can learn from it.
- [80:29]
A
Do you, you meant, you mentioned that like you were new to retail. Like part of the Joanne fabrics thing was like, you're just new, right? And I mean all of us, we can all attest to this. Like this is, we're, we're new or I think one of the joys of being an entrepreneur is that like there's just so much newness. But then the other side of that is like, I don't know.
- [80:48]
C
But you.
- [80:49]
A
I, I feel like incredibly naive and ignorant so often because I'm like, I've never done this before. I mean, how hard could it possibly be? I do wonder though, do you, do you feel like that ends up being a superpower in that you, because you don't know what you don't know, you can just figure things out in a way that somebody who has the experience probably would never even look at it that way.
- [81:14]
D
Yes, I a hundred percent believe that that's like a very core belief. I feel like in the UX design world about this beginner's mind type of thing that you, that you should approach problems even if you do have extension experience in it, as though you're a beginner. Because I think, you know, we didn't invent crochet kits, they existed before us. It's just that we looked at it and we were like, well, why aren't they just done this way? Because it's like better for the end user this way. And then we just tried to figure it out. And so I definitely think it. I think to this day, like, that's the kind of spirit that we want our. Everyone at our company to also have where it's like, learn what the rules of the game are and then figure out how to break it. Because we play by the rules. Like, we can do, like, I think going back to, like, how intentional our design is. It's like we. We do just that little bit extra so people can tell it's a little. It's a little bit different.
- [82:16]
A
Do you. On the note of different than. And like, doing. Because you. You made the comment earlier about the yarn too. Justine, do you guys have a lot of IP in the product, in the company? Like, how do you think about, like, if we explore new territory, are you trying to protect that intellectual property as you go?
- [82:39]
B
Yeah, we. The things that we think are really important in novel. We do try and get patents for and. But a lot of I would say more of our IP is like, around copyrights and the characters we make. And in the world of, like, do this e commerce, there's a lot of, like, scam sites out there. So, like, our trademark is probably the most widely enforced one of just trying to get people to stop creating scam sites and steal credit card numbers of different people.
- [83:10]
A
It's so crazy that we all have to do that. I hate that part of this business.
- [83:16]
D
So.
- [83:17]
A
Okay, I'm going to make an observation. So what I've noticed so far is that whenever we ask you a question, the person answering is like, it's clear that that's like, your part of the business. So I need to know as. Because you're, you know, like, you're married. How do you. Do you guys ever have disagreements? How and how do you navigate the sort of, like, the complexity of, like, we work together, we're married. Like, there is no bound. Like, are there boundaries?
- [83:48]
B
How.
- [83:49]
A
I mean, I just need to know.
- [83:51]
D
There's no boundaries. It's very unfair. There's boundaries. I feel like, in fact, a lot of times we get the most of our talk done when I'm lying in bed trying to fall asleep, and I hear it's like, well, what about these things? And I feel like that's when you have essentially two under two and a half and are running business together. It's kind of like there's only so much time we have where there's not something else happening and we can talk to each other. Yeah.
- [84:22]
B
But we don't really have many disagreements when it Comes to work.
- [84:26]
D
I think in general, we actually don't have very many disagreements. I think that's part why we're like, this obviously is going to work out Spot.
- [84:37]
A
Wait, are you both optimists by default? Like, you're both optimistic people and we're.
- [84:42]
B
No, we're pretty far on this spectrum.
- [84:44]
D
I'm a pessimist and that's part of
- [84:47]
B
where else come true. Yeah. And I, I'm very optimistic.
- [84:54]
A
Okay. I didn't. I actually would have. I would have taken you both as pretty optimistic.
- [85:00]
C
I think this is another one of those, like, thinker feelers. It's almost like we know, like the optimists know we need a pessimist in our life to ground us and vice versa.
- [85:12]
A
If you guys had a. If you had to like, look at the business, sort of like take a step out of it, is there something that you would change right now about the Woobles, like, outside looking in?
- [85:25]
B
I would say I would look at what, what we do as founders. I'm like, we probably. There's some like, you know, we've never done this before. And so like, we do. We probably almost need, like, we, we find. We find where we spend our time is kind of like really scattered all over the place. And a lot of it is like, you know, as you build, like you. We're not great system builders. And so a lot of it is probably from an outside perspective. I'd be like, I'm thinking about like, if someone look at what we did all day, they're probably like, you guys probably need more systems in place so
- [86:04]
A
that they come in and be like
- [86:06]
B
a lot of chaos here all over the place. I love it. Yeah. I mean, we hear, we hear about like Eos and like all these other platforms and like, we're just. I think it's so far away from like, what we know that.
- [86:25]
A
Can I give you, like, the Adrian? The reason that we run on EOS is because I'm not a systems guy.
- [86:30]
B
Yeah.
- [86:31]
A
So I'm like, I don't want to make one. I'm just going to use somebody else's because I know not. Like, for me, I'm like, when I don't have one, I can have anxiety. Like, I need to have like some stability in my life, which is why I just stole the system or, or adopted it. But I totally get it.
- [86:48]
B
I. I'm.
- [86:49]
A
I'm far more on the. Like, I just like to be an explorer and Chaos is my friend. So completely identify with that. We. I just want to be respectful of Time. We like to end these with this segment called the Titan 10. And it's just a series of questions that I'm gonna ask. They're a little more tactical. You guys are very tactical people. So I don't think this is gonna be a struggle for you, but I would like you to kind of answer as like gut feeling, quick as you can. Okay, so question one is, you get to a desert island, I drop you off and all I give you is three numbers. And those three numbers are going to tell you exactly how the Woobles is doing. What are those three numbers?
- [87:46]
B
Customer sentiment, customer feedback in general. Like what the customers are thinking about us making sure that what our profitability is, no investors, no debt, means that we have for ensure success we need to be profitable. And what our kit success rate is. Are we still making the. Like it's simple and intuitive to enjoy the product.
- [88:13]
A
Justine, would you change anything there? Like any. Anything that you would add or take away?
- [88:18]
D
No, he's a numbers guy. Trust.
- [88:23]
A
Love it. Okay, so you're. You also get to bring a book, but it can't be about business. What are you going to bring to read?
- [88:32]
D
Handmaid's Tale is one of my favorite. I love these dystopian books.
- [88:37]
A
You are the pessimist. I take back what I said. Adrian, what are you reading?
- [88:43]
B
I mean, it's still kind of business related, but I really like Shoe Dog. I like Shoe Dog more. More for like the. The personal journey that he might. Totally about the business side.
- [88:54]
A
Totally. It's like you read that book and you just feel like, what a dumbass.
- [88:59]
C
We can cut this out if we want, but I have to tell you guys, like, we, we read it early on in the company and you know, it just resonated so much with our team that I started telling people that at the end of my career I was going to write one called Cup Dog. And to this day, if you come to the simple modern office, the wi fi password is cupdog 2017.
- [89:19]
D
That's amazing.
- [89:20]
A
So good.
- [89:22]
D
Good.
- [89:24]
A
What, what is your. Do you have like a contrarian belief about business that other people think maybe that you're crazy for that or they just. They disagree with you on. Hence why it's contrarian.
- [89:38]
B
Kind of going back to like the. The EOS and systems. Like we're terrible operators.
- [89:43]
D
I think ironic that we're on this month.
- [89:47]
B
Okay, I know that's not true.
- [89:50]
C
I know that cannot be true.
- [89:54]
B
We're. I, I think we're really strong at making great products, but like, we are definitely we're very bad at like being an operator and like so we don't run a tight ship. We don't really hold anybody accountable. Like we're not, I, I would say like we're, we're bad at extracting, we're bad at maximizing efficiency within our team and holding accountability and doing all that. But on the flip side of that, like, you know, I think we, we're really good at user research and building customer products and creating fun experiences. And so I think the contrarian view is maybe not that contrarian but like our view is like it's okay to like, like if you're bad at something, it's okay to like just not even focus on that and focus on like what you are really good at and let that shine. I mean, hopefully just have enough of a team or support to, to cover what all the other bases that you're not paying attention to.
- [90:53]
A
I kind of like that.
- [90:54]
C
I would say counterintuitively, that's what you have to do to be a great operator. You guys are saying like that's why we're not great operators. I think that's what great operators do is that they like, this is my zone of genius and I'm going to like stay in it and I'm not gonna spend a lot of brain damage on all the other stuff.
- [91:09]
B
Yeah, it would be optimistic way of putting it. Yeah.
- [91:14]
A
What, okay, so then that. What is the single most important word in leadership?
- [91:21]
D
No ego for you? Yeah, no ego. I guess that's two words. Okay, egoless.
- [91:27]
A
Egoless. There you go. Then what's the most. Well then what's the most single important word of business?
- [91:34]
D
I mean, iterate. For me I'm all about the UX design process.
- [91:37]
C
Iterate.
- [91:38]
D
Iterate.
- [91:42]
B
Persistence would be mine, but persistence and iteration I think go. Go hand in hand.
- [91:47]
A
They do?
- [91:47]
B
Yeah.
- [91:48]
A
I mean you guys are just, it's like you're kind, you guys are so good together it's kind of annoying. I'm just gonna say it now for everybody listening. It's like, it's, you're, it's just, it's awesome. Best meal of the day. And why lunch?
- [92:02]
D
Because specifically weekday lunches because it was the only meal that we have where we don't also have a two and a half year old asking things of us.
- [92:16]
A
What do you think the most overrated growth tactic is in consumer right now?
- [92:23]
B
I think you mentioned it earlier, but kind of like how much talk goes into marketing. Like there's so much content on like marketing and like focus on marketing that I think people undervalue, like, how much growth you can get out of a good product. And, like, that's. I think that there's a little bit of a disconnect in the general industry of, like, how much emphasis we put on marketing. Okay.
- [92:48]
A
And then most underrated tactic, then. Is it going to be product?
- [92:53]
D
Yeah. I feel like you guys could have
- [92:56]
C
predicted our answers to all the answers. I'm sensing that product is important.
- [93:00]
D
Yeah.
- [93:01]
A
Product. Yeah. Headline. Product matters. Is there, Mike? I don't know. Justine. Adrian, is there anything that we. You feel like we should have asked you?
- [93:16]
C
I'll ask one more. If you could go back in time and you could tell yourself at the very early days, if you could tell yourself one thing, knowing everything you know now, what would you say?
- [93:29]
D
Hmm. It's going to be a wild ride, and it changes your life in good and bad ways. Appreciate it all for.
- [93:42]
B
Yeah.
- [93:42]
D
Again, going back to. You don't appreciate it in the moment, but it's definitely like a. I think I feel really fortunate that I feel like we're living a lot of once in a lifetime moments.
- [93:53]
B
Yeah. I also. I think I'm cognizant kind of trying to answer both questions at the same time, which is like, I think that I've. I'm aware of just how much luck plays into all of this. Like, we briefly talked about, like, Shoe Dog, but one of the remarkable things that I took out of Shoe Dog and Mark Randolph's book on Netflix was that, like, there's so much luck in the beginning of anything you do of meeting the right people on your team. And to me, it's like, I call them misfits, and I think maybe one of the books calls them misfits, which is like, these are people who are, like, exceptionally good and have tremendous value on your business, but they never really found an organization to fit in, or they struggled in different roles and whatnot. And there's so much luck in meeting people like that where it's like, you have a problem that they're so uniquely skilled to solve, and you somehow meet each other at the right time. Because in the beginning of this, it's almost impossible to hire. It's really difficult to convince people to come along a journey with you. Um, and so, like, just like, like thinking back and, like, just luck plays such a huge role in all of this. And, like, you can put yourself in positions to be lucky and try and, like, get lucky, but, like, there's still a large amount of element which is luck, that. That happens in this.
- [95:17]
A
Completely agree. Love it. This has been fun, guys. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to sit down and do this. I know it can be weird to, like, record and all this stuff. This has been a lot of fun.
- [95:33]
D
Yeah. Thanks.
- [95:34]
B
Thank you. I was gonna say, like, normally we never would do anything like this, but we get. I think one of the really unique things about E Commerce is that people are so willing to help each other. And so like, we specifically doing this one, because I think, like, we know a lot of the same people and. And even, like, Matt and. Yeah, Matt, like, you've given us, like, great advice. Like, it's a community that, like, we've taken so much from that. Like, we're like, we need to also give back to this community. And so we love for letting us have this platform to at least try and attempt to do that.
- [96:05]
C
Yeah. Thank you guys for sharing. I mean, I think it's just easy to forget that we're all starting out. You know, we all had to start out somewhere. And I'm sure that you guys. Your story. There are going to be people that listen to this that are at the very beginning of their journey, and something you said is going to help them help that. That unlock that changes the trajectory of their business and their life. And this is ultimately why it's so enjoyable to be a part of the podcast. In many ways, it's the same message as you. Is that, like, that feeling of accomplishment? If this podcast can help people to experience that in their business, man, what a great way to use our time. You're doing it, you know, with little Snoopy characters and things that people can crochet, and we're doing it by talking about business. But it is pretty rewarding when you can help somebody to feel that sense of accomplishment, the empowerment that comes with it. And we just appreciate you being willing to give your time and share from your experience so that other people could experience that.
- [97:06]
D
All right, thanks, you guys, for doing this.