Inside the Affiliate Marketing Strategy Behind BK Beauty’s Growth

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Inside the Affiliate Marketing Strategy Behind BK Beauty’s Growth"

Operators Podcast with Sean Frank, Mike Beckham, Matt Bertulli, and Jason Panzer

Date: July 30, 2026 | Duration: ~82 min

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Episode Overview

This episode pulls back the curtain on the remarkable growth journey of BK Beauty, a DTC beauty brand built on a foundation of creator authenticity, laser focus, and a game-changing affiliate marketing strategy. Lisa (founder, pro makeup artist, and longtime content creator) and Paul (co-founder, business/ops lead) join the Operators to unpack how their business leveraged the nuances of influencer culture, TikTok Shops, operational control, and a "beauty is kindness" brand values platform to scale fast—without outside investment and with fulfillment kept in-house. The conversation covers product development, channel strategy, impact, category expansion, and the structural decisions that set BK Beauty apart.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origin Story & Brand Values

• [00:15] The Meaning Behind BK Beauty:
  • The name originated from Lisa’s daughters, Brooklyn and Kate, but evolved into "beauty is kindness"—a core message embedded in all branding and social giving.
  • Notable Quote:
    “The message I wanted to teach them was that beauty is kindness... but really, I think the piece that a lot of women like myself missed for a long time was being kind to myself.” – Lisa [01:09]
• [07:14] Mission-Driven Product Creation:
  • Lisa wanted products suitable both for professionals and for everyday women, emphasizing approachability and experience.

2. Strategic Product Focus

• [01:41] Why Brushes?
  • Story-driven (Lisa’s makeup artistry) rather than analytic: spotted a gap in the brush/tool segment—luxury feel, softness, visual appeal.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I wanted it to be part of the experience of doing your makeup, where you felt that same experience of opening a lipstick that you did by grabbing your makeup brush.” – Lisa [02:20]
• [04:06] Tools Over Cosmetics:
  • Technological advances in synthetic fibers made them competitive with natural options, offering consistency and ethical benefits.
• [12:22] Radical Focus—Resisting Rapid Category Expansion:
  • Early attempt to enter color cosmetics failed; intentionally narrowed back to brushes until brand authority/resources were higher.
• [13:04] Learnings on Capital & Expansion:
  • “With cosmetics, it’s all about the new, new, new… there’s so much more capital that you need… We shifted to that radical focus.” – Lisa [13:04]

3. Affiliate & Influencer Strategy as Superpower

• [02:26–03:25, 10:36–11:32, 44:50–55:44]
  • BK Beauty’s growth was fueled by Lisa’s own audience, then expanded to broader ecosystem of creators—leveraging authenticity and trust as a creator herself.
  • Notable Quote:
    “We started... from Lisa’s foundation of audience she had built over about five years, but quickly expanded to a wide array of working with content creators... a brush, I can sample that product one time. It’s evergreen.” – Paul [02:26]
• [50:25] Playbook for Creator Relationships:
  • Lisa’s experience as an influencer gave BK Beauty unique credibility and understanding of how to work with other creators.
  • Notable Quote:
    “We understand the mindset and motivation of the content creator and how to play in that sandbox… Not only was it the right time, the right place, but the right people.” – Paul [51:12]
• [58:41–60:43] Affiliate-First, Not Paid Placements:
  • Almost all creator relationships are affiliate (commission-based) rather than flat-fee sponsorships (“paid influencer marketing is the most overrated tactic” – Lisa [80:40]). Seeding and relationship-building are key.

4. TikTok Shop and Marketplace Dynamics

• [44:50–57:36] First-Mover Advantage, Closed-Loop Commerce:
  • BK Beauty was early to TikTok Shop and reaped outsized rewards during the high-subsidy “golden age.”
  • They seeded creators en masse—1,500 in one month, resulting in 2,500 new videos ([57:52]).
• [53:06–54:53] Discounting Challenges:
  • Deep TikTok Shop discounts created concerns for long-term brand value and Amazon conflicts.
  • “From a brand integrity [standpoint], having your brand 40-50% off all the time... you can’t do that.” – Lisa [53:35]
• [56:24] Platform-Specific Segmentation:
  • Customers outside TikTok sometimes disliked being directed there for deals, but overall, TikTok exposure was a monster top-of-funnel engine.
• [59:00–62:20] Creator Tiering and Retention:
  • TikTok classifies creators by GMV tiers (L1–L7+); volume comes from L1/2s, but L3+ are higher value.
  • “Retention is our big focus now… It requires more personal connection—in real life events, connection to the brand…” – Paul [62:02]

5. Keeping Fulfillment In-house

• [25:34, 37:47–43:47, 76:13+]
  • Major operational differentiator: fulfillment is in-house, not with a 3PL, even as order volumes hit 22,000 in a single day ([25:34]).
  • Notable Quote:
    “The idea that they’re going to have to wait for their order or have customer service issues—that are out of my control—really terrified me... seven years later we’ve been able to do it and do it really well.” – Lisa [39:02]
  • Operators discuss the brand and content advantages of controlling the last touch.

6. Personal Journey: Working Life, Risk, and Family

• [30:34–34:46] From Side Hustle to Full-Time:
  • Lisa’s creator journey was slow and born of passion—3 years to first $100; she went full-time after attending a Brene Brown keynote ([31:02]).
  • Both Lisa and Paul transitioned to full-time as the business gained traction circa 2019–2020, right before/at COVID.
• [69:36–72:34] Raising Entrepreneurial Kids:
  • Lisa allows her daughter to run a YouTube-based nail business for the skills and confidence—even accompanying her to conferences.

7. Brand Impact and Values

• [15:31–18:00]
  • “Beauty is Kindness” is reinforced through support for The Kindness Campaign and influences decisions about creator partnerships and brand alignment—sometimes opting out of major collabs to protect that mission.
  • Notable Quote:
    “Some of the hardest challenges we’ve had to face... is saying no to big opportunities.” – Paul [17:25]

8. Leadership and Contrarian Wisdom

• [74:18+] "Titan D.E.D." Lightning Round
  • Leadership: “Trust” (Paul) & “Accountability” (Lisa) [78:15]
  • Most important word in business: “Customer” (Lisa) [78:20], “Margin” (Paul)
  • Most overrated tactic: “Paid influencer marketing” (Lisa) [80:40]; “Moving to the next platform before mastering the one that’s working” (Paul) [80:54]
  • Most underrated: “Authentically nurturing relationships with creators” & “Going deeper, not wider—radical focus.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Early Days:
  “Phones on the Shopify, ding, ding, ding, ding... I’m getting the tingles just thinking about those moments, those early days.” – Paul [28:00]
• On Imposter Syndrome:
  “I still do [struggle] all the time. ...There is an image of me that people might have that doesn’t really align with what I feel about myself.” – Lisa [28:17]
• On Operational Ownership:
  “If your content creators—like, it’s a full flywheel, it’s gold... If you can [do fulfillment], you should do it.” – Matt [39:48]
• On What Makes a Good Brand Creator Mix:
  “People buy from people. The creators that don’t take sponsorships … have built a trust that is unlike any other creator.” – Lisa [69:09]
• On TikTok Shop’s Future:
  “We were uniquely positioned—right time, right place, but the right people.” – Paul [51:12]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:15 – The BK Beauty origin, mission, and initial product focus
• 02:26 – Why brushes became the breakout hit; strategic product talk
• 10:36 – Lisa’s background, creator-to-founder transition
• 12:22 – Lessons from failed category expansion, “radical focus”
• 15:31 – Impact/charity as part of the brand—real-world implications
• 25:34 – Ulta 21 Days of Beauty: selling 22,000 orders in one day, operational tales
• 39:02 – Fulfillment philosophy, brand control, in-house versus 3PL debate
• 44:50 – Entry into TikTok Shop: strategic moves and changing creator landscape
• 53:06 – Challenges of heavy discounting on TikTok Shop and Amazon parity
• 57:52 – Seeding: 1,500 creators in 30 days, the mechanics
• 58:41 – Affiliate-first influencer structure, TikTok’s creator tiers
• 62:20 – Creator event in Austin, retention moves, and deeper partnerships
• 80:40 – Lightning round: Overrated/underrated growth levers, leadership values

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Takeaways for Founders & Operators

• Anchor your brand in clear, lived values—they influence everything from product to partnerships.
• Radical focus trumps rapid diversification—own one thing before expanding.
• Affiliate and creator-centric strategies work best when authentic relationships are nurtured, not just paid for.
• The arbitrage window on new channels (like TikTok Shop) is real—move decisively early, but maintain discipline on pricing and brand integrity.
• Keeping fulfillment in-house can be a major lever for customer experience and content.
• Personal relationships, transparency, and genuine impact matter as much as tactics.
• Operator energy and hands-on engagement with the hardest/last part of the business (ops, fulfillment) can keep you grounded, informed, and innovative.

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Final Note

The episode stands out for its honesty about the journey—failures, pivots, passion, and day-to-day founder insecurities. It’s a “masterclass” in creator-led ecommerce, but equally a call for intentionality and care in building both an authentic brand and a winning business.
“Trust, accountability, and focus—these, not just ‘growth hacks’, are BK Beauty’s secret weapons.”

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(Summary compiled with direct attributions, natural tone, and relevant time markers for in-depth listening. Advertising, intros, and outros excluded.)

Transcript

[A]

So first off, Lisa, Paul, I would love to just start with, tell us a bit about the business because, like, not everybody watching is going to know what the business is. And then I just, I don't actually don't know what BK means. So BK Beauty, lay it on us.

[B]

BK Beauty, we are really known for makeup, brushes and tools. We're about seven years old. We're celebrating August of this year. Bk. Actually, it's kind of an interesting story, and I'll try and keep it tight, but I have two daughters. Their names are Brooklyn and Kate, and we started creating the brand. I. I had this a little bit of a struggle because I was a content creator at that time, beauty influencer. I had been doing that for several years. When I started doing that, I was a young mom, I had a 2 year old, and I was pregnant with. With Kate. And by the time we were launching the brand, I was in a different stage in life. Here I was in my mid-30s. I now had a 5 and a 7 year old, and I was starting to have conflict of, like, what I was teaching them in terms of, like, being a beauty creator. And my worry was that I was teaching them that, like, makeup is what makes you beautiful and I didn't want them.

[C]

And that matters for girls.

[B]

Definitely you have that mom guilt of,

[C]

like, what message do I want to and what values and that.

[B]

And I really was struggling with that because I struggled with that, you know, really, until my, you know, mid-30s. The message I wanted to teach them was that beauty is kindness. And so the BK evolved from, you know, Brooklyn and Kate to beauty is kindness. And it's all about being kind to other people. But really, I think the piece that a lot of women like myself missed for a long time was being kind to. To myself. Yes. Yeah. So that's, that's the story behind BK Beauty.

[A]

Very cool. And you launched brushes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How the. Okay, how the hell did you know that brushes was the way to go?

[B]

Well, interestingly enough, I can't say that when we launched, we knew that it wasn't like this real strategic thought. And looking back, I'm like, wow, we got really lucky launching with brushes. I had been a makeup artist in the past, in a previous life before I started making YouTube videos. So I knew the importance of brushes and tools. And I really saw this gap of, of having a brush that I would use as a makeup artist. But that was beautiful and looked and felt like luxury. All the makeup brushes on the market were black or dark gray or they just all kind of looked the same.

[C]

Not soft?

[B]

No.

[C]

I remember them being not soft and kind of rough on your face. And it was just a tool. It wasn't something that it wasn't right.

[B]

I wanted it to be part of the experience of doing your makeup where you felt that same experience of opening a lipstick that you did by grabbing your makeup brush.

[D]

And I'll say with the. With the brushes, what we found after we launched was it was a strategic home run for us, like, it was the right thing. And for a number of reasons. One, it's lower complexity. There's less noise in terms of kind of consumers looking for the next product that they want to enjoy. But outside of that, like, our distribution model was out of the gates. Getting our hands into content creators doing beauty tutorials on the Internet. Not just Lisa, but an array of them. So we started, obviously, from Lisa's foundation of audience she had built over about five years, but quickly expanded to a wide array of working with content creators. And if you think about it, brushes from a strategic standpoint, the path to the customer going through content creators, a brush, I can sample that product one time. It's evergreen. And so the post frequency that you get from that one product, it could be a featured star of the video, or it can be a supporting cast member for years to come.

[A]

It's the fricking pans of the beauty industry.

[D]

Yes. They're tools, right?

[A]

They're in everything. I never actually thought of it that way. So my assumption was that, like, you just had some inside knowledge because you were a creator on YouTube and you're like, oh, brushes. We're going to crush it with brushes. Everybody sucks at brushes. Like, look at the data. No, it was just.

[C]

Or I would have said, like, that it was a time where everyone was making blushes and lip glosses and. And so you were trying to find a segment that was more strategic. Nobody's doing this, but it was. It. It's so organic, which is so amazing.

[D]

And I'll. I'll give, you know, Lisa a little more credit. I mean, as we set out, Lisa's been a professional makeup artist for over 20 years now. And she always says that, you know,

[B]

well, yeah, it got to the point where, you know, as a beauty creator, I was starting to see that the drugstore makeup was evolving. It was almost as good as what you paid 40 for at Nordstrom. And what really the difference is, is the tools that you're using. It's not necessarily the products anymore, because products have come such a long way. But if you're not applying those products with the right tools. Yeah, you'll be. You won't get the results that you're looking for. So I, I started with brushes because to me, that is the foundation of a good makeup.

[D]

Right.

[B]

And then from there comes product. But now, knowing what I know now it's like we're self funded. We started with a very, you know, small investment. There's no way we could have launched in cosmetics and kept up with that.

[A]

Okay, so I have a follow up on the product thing.

[D]

It.

[A]

So you've been in beauty a long time. Is it one of these industries where, like, it's getting so mature at this point that the pace of innovation is slowing down? Or do you still see a lot changing on the product side of the category?

[B]

I mean, I still see a lot of innovation coming out. Yes. Just the textures are getting really sophisticated. The feel, you know, it's all about sensory and how a product feels. The performance of products today is just night and day from what it was when I was doing makeup, you know, 20 years ago, including brushes. You know, back when I was doing make makeup, natural fibers were the premium choice. Right. Synthetics were not part of the mix. But now the technology around creating synthet fibers has come so far that you can get a synthetic fiber that performs like natural hair because it holds on

[C]

to the makeup better.

[B]

Yeah, it. Natural fibers are really known for picking product up really well. But synthetic fibers can perform the same. They can have the same pickup, but they're not going to absorb the product the same way natural fibers are going to do. There's just so much more benefits to using synthetic. There's a consistency aspect to that that you can get natural. Because if you think about a natural fiber on an animal, it's dependent on the diet of the animal, the climate that the animal lived in, the.

[A]

So many things when you're saying it, it makes sense. But I would have never thought.

[B]

You never think about that as a consumer. I didn't think about it until I was making brushes and I learned all of this.

[C]

But this is my favorite thing about talking to founders is there's so much passion, nuance. Like you even talking about makeup brushes and you're lighting up about synthetic fibers. And Matt's over here like, you know

[A]

what I was thinking? I encountered two bears this week. I think I posted the photo in a group. I went mountain biking. It's like 10 of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Riding our bikes all of a sudd. Brother just screamed. He's like, oh, my God. It's like nine of us passed 20ft from two black bears that were just sitting there.

[C]

Bears don't exist in Texas. No.

[A]

Like, hey, we all stopped. We were taking pictures, and one of the guys is like, they just look so soft and cuddly. I'm like, go over there, bro.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Give him a little pet. Let's see what happens, man.

[C]

Hard pass. Hard pass.

[A]

Natural fibers.

[B]

I just.

[C]

I think it's so cool. So when you leaned into product development, it was probably very natural for you because you knew exactly what you're asking for. And so many times, as brands expand into product expansion, they have to think about, what does it take to make this product? And what. What do I need to source and who? I mean, you knew what you needed and wanted, and it was just about finding the right partner to make the product that was good enough for you.

[B]

100. Yes. And I wanted brushes that I would have used as a makeup artist, but that also weren't confusing or complex to a woman that maybe is just starting out in makeup. It was like a balance of creating and designing brushes like that.

[C]

It could be just for the everyday woman.

[B]

Yeah. 100. Yes.

[A]

Who. Who had to convince who to start the company?

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Who do you think?

[A]

Who is the most like, we're doing this.

[C]

You.

[D]

Well, so. So the story behind that. So, you know, Lisa had spent five years up until the point prior to launch, we. We launched a brand in 2019. Obviously, our store Start story, started well, well before that on YouTube with Lisa and the work she was doing. But my background's business and marketing, and there was just an opportunistic encounter with another marketing guy who happened to be in E commerce.

[C]

And so right place, right time kind of thing.

[D]

Exactly. So our daughters were in the same preschool as his, and we were at a kid's birthday party, and just two nerdy guys sitting in the corner talking about marketing. And then he starts going off on. You know, my background in marketing is more B2B. I worked in kind of tech, and he was talking about all this E comm stuff that got me super fascinated. So, anyways, we kept in touch, and then, you know, he learned what Lisa was doing on YouTube, building an audience, and he just connected the dots for us. He, you know, you guys have really done the hard part already. You should consider coming up with your own brand instead of talking about all these other brands. You have an opportunity on the table to start something of your own.

[C]

Was that the pivot that night?

[B]

I'll never forget. He came home from lunch with him, and he was in the shower and he told me, he's like, we got to do this. We got to do this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's like, what should. Yeah. He's like, what should we do? And at the time, I was looking for the perfect makeup bag, which I'm still looking for, actually. And so I thought, new category.

[E]

Come on.

[C]

Like, do you need me to say it out loud? I feel.

[A]

No, I'll do it.

[C]

We just talked about makeup bags too.

[B]

Did you see how many I had in my closet, too? Yeah, I know. And so the first. The first direction was going to be a makeup bag, but then we pivoted and landed on brushes. But I still clearly remember that day.

[F]

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[B]

You were ready to leave where you were at. I always had this kind of entrepreneurial spirit. To me, I had a wedding makeup business and I was, you know, and I just knew that. That there was something greater for us.

[D]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And when we were developing the products, if you think about it, I think Lisa is in a unique position, not only being a professional makeup artist for the last 20 years, but the last 12 years, she's been working with brands all over the place. We get PR sent to our house. Her job is to review products every single day and te consumers how to use them. Back 20 years ago, when she worked at the Mac cosmetics counter and she was a regional trainer over there, it was a different world. Right. Consumers understood if they needed to get access to the information they needed to make a purchasing decision, they go to the counter.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

They learn about products, they discover them there. But now, of course, that happens on YouTube, on TikTok. And Lisa is the gatekeeper to that educational component. But even beyond that, there's no type of person better suited to develop the right product for that market than the person who sees product every single day non stop and knows how to share that with people.

[C]

Yeah, she's the trust factor, 100%.

[D]

And she, she has an understanding of what good looks like in terms of building the right product. And I think in the beauty space, what I found is when we got into it, the infrastructure is there. Contract manufacturing. It's about finding the right category so big, and it's just figuring out where you want to build on the spectrum in terms of whether it's mass or prestige, and then have the right person that has a vision that we can execute on. And for us, you know, Lisa had that packaged up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You've not expanded outside of the brushes?

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

Not yet.

[B]

Coming soon.

[A]

It's coming soon. We know this. I gotta ask anyway, I'm not gonna tell people what it is. We don't wanna spoil it.

[C]

It's good.

[A]

Why, why did it take so long to expand categories? Can you like, just unpack that a little bit?

[D]

Yeah. I think my answer to that is it comes down to radical focus. I would say we, we actually did launch into color cosmetics early and we found that it was too soon. It was spreading us too thin. We hadn't done all the work that was yet to be done within the brush category and tooling on the op

[C]

side or the marketing side.

[B]

So building the brand, just releasing products

[D]

too much, too quickly. And that was a big lesson we learned. We partnered with some labs who were pulling us along and making it very easy for us in terms of developing the next set of products. But it was too much and we weren't ready. We weren't ready, we weren't ready.

[B]

And I think that with cosmetics, it's all about the new, new, new. It's so much more. There's so much more capital that you need to have to be able to do color Cosmetics. Right. Y. You know, and early on, we really weren't in a position to be doing that, and so we did. It wasn't a huge success. Brushes really started to take off, and then again, we shifted to, like, that radical focus of running with brushes, building our brand off of that. And now we're in a position where we have the resources to do it right and do exactly what we want. And we have this huge customer base that's, like, waiting for the next thing. And it's. It feels right now.

[C]

I love that. I think it's such an important lesson for people to hear, too. Right. Like, it's very much. You weren't. You weren't ready yet. And I think people get so excited with the momentum.

[A]

I wonder if there's. So we had Sean Riley from Dude Wipes on, like, I don't know, several months ago, and they had also expanded categories. So they went from, like, the wipes. Right. And then I guess one of their investors or somebody is like, we got to do everything like deodorant and soap and whatever. And very, very quickly they pulled it all back. And like, nope, we're sticking to wipes. Even today, I still think they are wipes. But listening to you guys talk about this focus, I actually wonder if there's, like, criteria. I don't have an answer for this, by the way. I'm just thinking out loud. But, like, it. What is the criteria that would say, like, this category. These are the variables that you shouldn't expand that quickly because, like, Katie, you guys, Sean, like, we've got so many friends where it's like, product, product, product. Like, it's just feed. We just finished with Sunil, like, agreed,

[C]

but I do so much product. I. I know that y' all are. Now you've built this incredible brand and now product expansion going to be easier.

[B]

I think so too.

[A]

Do you think it's. It's position in market for you guys? Like, like a more premium feeling, more luxury product. You actually have to work on the brand for a longer period of time before you introduce another product because the bar is so high for the customer. Like, their expectations are high.

[D]

We had so much more Runway ahead of us with brushes. We. We weren't. We weren't done there, and we were positioning ourselves to really make a name in brushes and be. Be, you know, working towards being a category leader in that. In that at least where we play. Right. And I feel as though we've. We've. Mission accomplished getting there, and now is the right time to start expanding out in terms of seeing the next phase of growth. And I think product is a big part of that and distribution as well.

[E]

The.

[A]

The beauty is kindness thing. Do you guys have an impact or a charitable giving piece that I remember seeing?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Can you explain that? Because I have a question on that. I want to see if you guys can answer for me.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. So I explained a little bit about the inspiration for bk, right. And that aspect of being kind to others but kind to yourself. So there is a non profit here in Austin, but they serve nationwide. It's called the Kindness campaign. And so they go into Title 1 school. So schools that don't really have the resources for these types of programs and they teach them about kindness, empathy, self love, gives them the social emotional awareness tools and they do that through curriculum. And so we do give back to the Kindness campaign we have since day one.

[A]

Very cool. And so then my question is like, Pela is a very much an impact brand. And I'll be honest, like there are days where I hate that we are so like environmentally focused and socially focused because it actually limits us in a lot of things. Like we just can't do a lot of things. People ask me all the time, like, why don't you guys in certain categories? I'm like, because I can't do it in a way that meets the brand. Yeah, it's actually like it's a pair of handcuffs. And it held us back for years and years. Like, like we're just now starting to expand in a product, new product categories. Has this sort of like giving aspect and this impact. Has it held you guys back in any way? Does it ever come up as like, we can't do this, we can't enter this product category, we can't talk about this topic. Like, does it at all for the people that are going to listen to this? I get this question a lot. It's like, should you build impact into a business?

[B]

That's a good question. I really struggle thinking. There's one thing that comes to mind and it is around just aligning ourselves with certain creators out there, you know, because maybe. Right. Because maybe the environment that they are in unfortunately has, you know, a toxic community or they don't.

[C]

Or their own personal. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And so I think it's just really. That's kind of the one thing that really comes to mind.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What else comes to mind?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, some of some of the hardest challenges that we've had to face when building company is saying no to big opportunities. And we had the opportunity to do a big product collab one time with one of the big og, you know,

[B]

creators, beauty creators, someone that I actually personally love. Like, I follow her and love her and I wanted to so bad, but.

[D]

And, you know, the reality is, what Lisa's talking about is there's oftentimes certain aspects of personalities like that that put themselves out there so much that it's. It's introducing a little risk to our brand and how we're positioning it.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Like you're describing it. And so, yeah, it does. It does keep us in check from that perspective, but I think it insulates us as well. And so it sets those bounds at least. Coming from kind of beauty is kindness concept. Right.

[A]

This is actually. So you got me thinking, like, even your business as a YouTube or as a content creator, I want to call you YouTuber, but content creator. And then you have BK Beauty, and you've sort of like, stood these. You keep building both of these things. Did you have to change how you think about your own content creation and your own brand as BK Beauty kind of got bigger over time, or was it always, like, pretty natural and easy?

[B]

It's always pretty natural. I did make a strong effort not. Not to change and shift my content creation on my YouTube channel or Instagram too much because I feel like, you know, I was in a position to build BK Beauty because I had this audience because I was reviewing other brands, other products, very, you know, honestly and authentically. And I didn't want. I wanted to protect that. And if I got into a position where I. Where I was just focused on my own brand and pushing that forward, I mean, I just felt like that'd be very uninteresting. You know, who wants to listen to someone, Right?

[C]

Sure.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

And so she's talking about brushes again.

[B]

I made it well. And the great thing about our product, I'm always going to use them in every video because I'm talking about the newest Jones road launch or whatever it might be. Right.

[A]

Cody's going to love this.

[C]

Thanks, Paul. You're welcome, Cody.

[D]

But that goes back to the, you know, like the strategic home run of brushes. You know, she could continue to incorporate that behind the scenes as a supporting cast member in all the content without changing her content materially for the audience, which would have been such an abrupt change. And so she's been able to continue that level of trust and authenticity because her content. Content really hasn't changed.

[A]

Yeah. And I suspect that that even factors into how you guys think about product roadmap going forward. Is like, how does it integrate first into your own story and the stories you tell and then. And then out from. From there?

[B]

Yeah, but we were having this conversation earlier as we get into color cosmetics. I will. I do feel like, because I still work with brands in a paid capacity, I still get hired and paid by other brands, talk about their products. But so as you, as you develop

[C]

products that could be.

[B]

It doesn't make sense. Right. Will I still talk about other brands and other products? Absolutely. But should getting paid to do that? I don't think that makes sense.

[A]

Can I ask a. This might be a personal question. I don't. For who.

[D]

Why.

[A]

Why are they two separate companies? Why is the creator business and BK Beauty separate? Are they structurally. Yeah, they're separate.

[B]

They're separate.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How come it wasn't just like, we're just gonna stick this. This brush business in the.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I don't think we ever thought about it any other way. I know when we were. Yeah. Honestly, when we were thinking about starting our own brand, I. I knew from the beginning it was not going to be called Lis Makeup. Yeah. You know, one. I was a micro creator. I wasn't even a big name. No one knew who I was. That wasn't going to add any value, which I think is really interesting because what we've done, being the smaller creator that I am, it's pretty incredible. Right. But I'm not a big name, so there was no value in using my name and I, I just always wanted to keep it separate.

[D]

Yeah. And certainly there's crossover. And I've got an interesting story of some of that crossover, if you remember the, the Maybelline opportunity that we have. So, so Maybelline, you know, massive brands, been around for.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You know, almost century. Millions of dollars. So anyways, Lisa was. They reached out to Lisa to do a sponsored con. Like a collaboration partnership. Yeah, exactly. And as a part of that, there was a brush attached to it, which was not Maybelline. It was another brand. But Maybelline doesn't really do brushes, so to speak. And so they were.

[C]

I keep singing their commercial in my head right now. Every.

[B]

Maybe it's Maybelline.

[D]

And so, so of course Lisa kind of flagged it and like, like told me like, hey, by the way, they got. Got a brush. I'm not sure we can do this. I was like, hold on, let's figure this out. And so we basically positioned kind of Lisa J. Right, her business, doing the collaboration. But by the way, let's use BK Beauty Instead, and so we did. And it evolved even further from that to the point where they. They basically distributed our brushes and packaged them up and bundled them and this all happened on TikTok. And like, it was just such an awesome moment.

[A]

There's actually like, there's advantage to having them separate.

[B]

Right, Right.

[C]

Yeah. But also that kind of took guts for you because you were a smaller company, right. You had like, no's are free. You had to, like, have the guts to ask for something different with the risk of them saying, you know what? No, I don't want to do that anyway. So I think that's really cool.

[A]

But early on, would. Was there ever, like, in a moment like that, what makes me think, especially early on is like, is this going to run us over? Like, when you do a partnership with a company or creator, like somebody that big gig, it can pop off and you can not be ready for it. Like, was there any of that at any point in these, like, early days where, like, oh, God, we're selling way too many of these.

[B]

Oh, sure, we've had a lot of those experiences. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I want to immediately lean into what we know recently happened with VK Beauty. The. Didn't you ship like 20,000 orders in one day?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How.

[C]

Yeah, like, how do you even do that's insane.

[D]

Why don't you talk about kind of the lead up to that, kind of what we're talking about, and then I'll walk through kind of the operational challenges.

[B]

Yeah, so what you're talking about is Ulta 21 Days of Beauty.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, we talked about this.

[B]

We got onto the Ulta Marketplace in December. So what is that six, seven months ago?

[C]

Which is huge all by itself.

[B]

Just being available for people to shop us online at Ulta is huge. It's very exciting. People are so excited. It also unlocked for creators an opportunity for them to now link us during 21 Days of Beauty, which typically in the past, if 21 Days of Beauty is happening, Nordstrom anniversary sale is happening, Sephora savings event is happening. We're not being linked because everyone's going to link brushes they can find there. Right. So this was, this was Our first sold 120, 21 days of beauty in March of this year. You know, they. They allot you like a daily deal. You get to have one day where you can pick a skew. It can be 50 off. Right. And so ours was the A506, our concealer brush that's gone viral on TikTok. And Ulta reached out and they're like, we, we anticipate that you're going to sell around 5,000 of these on this day. You know, so what did you think

[C]

when you got that email? Were you like.

[B]

I mean we were excited. We, I think we knew we were going to sell more than 5,000 of these units.

[D]

We were preparing for more.

[C]

Yeah, we're like here it comes.

[A]

You had the inventory.

[B]

That wasn't an issue because that brush went viral on TikTok. You know we really over invested in inventory and that's why we're able to use it for promotions like this. Right.

[E]

At Hexclad, Applovman has been our highest spending new channel since the start of last year. Mid seven figures and growing. It almost wasn't. My team was skeptical so I stepped in to push them. First I had them pull data on the overlap between Meta and Applovin customers to find out if the platform was really just retargeting. Then we ran multiple holdout tests. The results 90% new customers 53% higher ROAS 36% higher new customer ROAS 27% lower new customer CAC. The numbers were just bang on. If you create an Applovin account and launch on day one, you're gonna get thousand dollars in free ad credit plus another 5,000 when you 5,000 audio on vertical videos. Unskippable ad units, new reach for new customers. Check it out today go to 9 operators.com applovin. You're going to get our guide to new channels, recordings of our live expansion events with us and 25 of our friends 9operators.com applovin back to the show.

[B]

We ended up selling 22,000 units that day.

[A]

In one day.

[B]

In one day. Yeah. And they're all separate orders really.

[C]

By the way, we your shopify notifications for that in that moment.

[A]

No, that's just abusive to your ears.

[C]

It would be so cool.

[D]

The kicker is we do fulfillment in house.

[A]

Yeah, I know. That's the part that blows my mind.

[D]

Also Marketplace is drop ship. So we are shipping all these orders out and there's an sla. Yeah, you know, so we had to get them out in two business days.

[C]

Were they going to find you if you were late?

[D]

I mean they would slap us on the wrist but we weren't going to let that happen. Right. And so fortunately the two business days happened to be a Friday and a Monday so we had the weekend to work with too. And so I was telling you Katie that you know, that's when we found the power of staffing agencies. Where you can just, like, scale up. And so because the order, it was such a simple order. It was one product. Same, you know, the same thing over and over. You just set up an assembly line for days, and you just lick it and stick it and you go, go, go, and you got the job done.

[C]

Lick it and stick it?

[D]

Yeah, the label and you drop it in carton picking.

[A]

We know that. Yeah, yeah. We'll clip it with no context.

[C]

I love it. But you leaned into.

[D]

So we got the job done.

[C]

Y. Yeah.

[D]

And just blew also away not only what we sold, but from an operational capacity, like they were from a partnership.

[A]

They must love that.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You guys just showed the.

[B]

It was incredible.

[D]

And we wanted. We wanted to really prove ourselves, and this was the moment to do it.

[A]

When you. When you were first starting out, when did you guys realize this was, like, actually going to work?

[C]

Yeah,

[D]

I think within the first five minutes. Like, literally, like, before you quit your

[C]

job or after you quit your job.

[B]

Let me add to this. So Paul wrote on a napkin before we launched what we were going to do in revenue for the first 10 years. To this day, he has been pretty darn accurate.

[A]

Can we go buy some lottery tickets?

[B]

Yeah, I. I would say. I mean, the first day blew us away. You know, I realized quickly that, like, okay, this is. This is more than just us packing orders at the kitchen table. Yeah, Right. This is. This is going to require a lot more.

[D]

The reality is, Lisa had already been doing the hard work for five years leading up to that Go Live moment. When our daughters pushed the Go Live button on Shopify, they. And we're sitting around there with no, you know, high expectations, but, like, it blew us away.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And, you know, we're there with our two daughters and just seeing it. The magic.

[B]

The phones on the Shopify. Ding, ding, ding, ding.

[D]

I'm getting the tingles, you know, just thinking about those moments, those early days, you know, when we're launching. I mean, it was just. I mean, we've all experienced.

[B]

You can't replicate it.

[C]

Did you have imposter syndrome at all, or do you still.

[B]

I still do. All the time. Yeah, sure, I do.

[E]

Like.

[C]

Like, how so? Because to me, I talked to you, and I just think you're brilliant. You know, exactly what you're both doing. You have marketing and ops down to a science. Like, you're just crushing it. What could you be insecure about?

[B]

I mean, I think everybody struggle. Not everybody, but I think most people struggle with some degree of that. Right. And I think that when you you know, I'm a public person in a way before BK beauty, and now with. Because of BK beauty, the. I'm even more so. And so I just think that there is an image of me that's. That people might have, that doesn't really align with what I feel about myself. Maybe I think it's just natural insecurities. But at the end of the day, what I remind myself is, is that, you know, we are all human beings struggling with these feelings and these thoughts, and we all just figure it out. You know, when I sit in rooms with people like you and other founders that are doing multiples of what we're doing, and I talk to you, I realize, like, you're just a normal person.

[C]

We're all.

[B]

I can have a conversation.

[C]

We're all just barely surviving.

[A]

Yeah, we all suck pretty. Pretty seriously. But.

[B]

But I. You realize, like, you know. Yeah, yeah, it is.

[C]

And you just. Everything's figureoutable.

[B]

It totally.

[C]

And it sounds like that's how you've grown it what it is today. Right.

[B]

We've gotten this far.

[A]

It's also like, I think the. It's like a higher level thing, but like, I think it's a unique advantage of being in the United States is like, culturally, there is no such thing as like bad failure here for some reason. Like, I think it's like the. One of the greatest advantages that you. That this country has relative to the rest of the world is like, you're just allowed to try stuff here and everybody loves it and we sell it. Like the founder. I think I saw this recently. The founder is like now the new, like they are the new celebrity.

[D]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

Like, you see it just everywhere. It's like we celebrate the entrepreneur more than anything in life. And I don't know, but you. It gives me permission to like, just try stuff. I don't really feel too bad about it.

[C]

Yeah. But tell those Canadians it's not that easy. It still is very. I mean, it's scary.

[A]

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it's nice to have like the cultural backup to go take your swing. Yeah, I think it's great. You can still have all the stuff. I mean, that's more humans, you know, like. And yeah, I think we all feel like we suck most days.

[E]

I.

[A]

At least I do.

[E]

I don't know.

[A]

It's definitely normal. When did you quit your job?

[D]

So. So Lisa took to YouTube early days, nights and weekends that she had a day job about what, two, three years into.

[B]

I Have a really good story.

[C]

Oh, we want to hear this story.

[B]

This is a cool story.

[D]

Bring it.

[B]

Story. So, you know, I'd been a makeup artist. I saw YouTube as this way for me to transition out of doing makeup and still keep makeup in my life. So let me start a YouTube channel. No. You know, no expectation from it. I didn't even monetize it for three years. It took me three years to make $100 on YouTube.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

It was the world back then.

[C]

But still, you truly were doing it

[B]

because you had percent. Yes, it was. It was a pure passion. I was working outside of the house part time. He was working at a cybersecurity firm. They had hit the Inc 5000 list, and they had invited him and me. Me to attend the conference. The 5000 conference, you know, for his company that had made the list. I was sitting. It was 2017. I was sitting in the keynote talk, which was Brene Brown.

[C]

I love her.

[B]

And she was talking about just balancing it all and all the things she was trying to do and feeling like she was failing and, you know, all, da, da, da. And I was. Even though, you know, I was doing something very different, working outside the home, trying to do this YouTube channel, trying to do makeup, I could resonate with that, and I could relate to that. And I felt like I was her. And we both looked at each other in that conference, and he said, you need to quit your job and do YouTube full time. Full time. And I said, I do. And I guess I just wanted permission. Like, I just wanted to know that I could do that.

[C]

You know, I want a business partner. Like, what they have. Like, this isn't.

[B]

And so I put my notice in the next week, I quit. Two weeks. That's when I started doing YouTube full time. So this was 2017. The end of 2017. A year later, I had started monetizing YouTube. And when I started trying to monetize it, I was like, why haven't I not been doing this this whole time? You know, all of a sudden I was making. Not a lot, but I was making.

[C]

But you don't know what. You don't know. I.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so. And then a year. The year after that conference is when we started working on BK Beauty.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

A year later.

[D]

And so.

[B]

And then we have been on the Inc 5000 list, and we've gone to that conference now, and we sit in that room. Yes. Isn't that wild? Okay, sorry.

[A]

Go.

[B]

Keep going.

[D]

No, I mean, it's a great story. And so for Lisa, her content creator journey. It was nights. It started nights and weekends for me is the brand was taking off and we were working on product development, kind of getting the brand ready for launch. Launch that was nights and weekends for me, leading, you know, I was still 100% kind of day job.

[C]

And you had two little bitties at home.

[D]

And we had two girls. Yeah, young girls. And so we launched in August of 2019. Like I said, it took off. Lisa had already done the hard work and it was basically expressing everything that she had built up and starting to grow from there. And it was very clear to me that this needed full time attention. Like, we have something here. And so the, the company, my prior company, it was my roommate in college who started the company. I came in early and you know, we, we grew up for. I worked, worked with them for 10 years. But within maybe a week or two, I, you know, sat him down and said, hey, we've got something over here.

[C]

We need something to sell makeup brushes. How did he take that? Well, hey, man, I got you. I'm going into makeup now.

[D]

So and so. So long story short, I didn't, I didn't have a timeline, but I needed him to know what was going on and we needed to plan my transition. I didn't have a timeline, but it was important to me that we found the right person to come in and fill my seat. I had an equity position in the business. Like I still needed.

[C]

Kindness is beauty. Good job.

[D]

And so I, I, I stuck around for six months. He, he just kept kicking the can. Didn't want to kind of approach, approach it, but, you know, I was handling it above board. It wasn't until March 13, it was a Friday of 2020, that I said my goodbyes to the team of March of 2020. Yeah, that's right.

[C]

Which is also.

[A]

Timing is epic.

[B]

It was a day. They canceled south by Southwest because of

[C]

COVID They canceled it that day before COVID Really?

[D]

Well, the following Monday, lockdown began. Wow.

[C]

Did you panic?

[B]

I did.

[C]

I just quit my job.

[B]

I panicked. I did. I was like, this is our insurance.

[A]

Have a panic. I freaked out, man.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, Covid wasn't really in Texas. We can say that or not in Texas. We did not really freak out. I mean, yes, we did, but not

[A]

like for the rest of us.

[B]

Yeah, no, but I think your question is like, you know, did I panic? Because.

[C]

But he had just. He was your steady income. Totally. He was your known paycheck. He was probably your insurance.

[B]

He was your security blanket.

[C]

That job Was your.

[B]

In my head, I'm like, okay, we've done an amazing six months in this business, but does this have longevity? You know, like, that's the big question mark I have.

[A]

Yeah. Well, the. The beginning of COVID I don't if this happened to you at the beginning of COVID or you guys. But, like, Pila's sales at. In the first week dropped 50%.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

At the beginning of COVID But then two weeks later, it went up three times. Like we saw. Then it was like Covid came on. You know, everybody started turning ads off. The auction got cheaper.

[B]

I saw your ads all the time. How funny is it that I'm now sitting here with you in my home now? I remember I saw his ads.

[A]

I think I told Paul, CPM's got cheap. I'm like, how much money can I dump in this country right now?

[C]

Was it for Lomi?

[A]

No, for Pila.

[C]

Really?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Lomi didn't come. We didn't do the crowdfunding me until after 2021.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And then we shipped in March of 2022. But Pilo was like, our big Covid hit was we had a nurse write in that she had. She was keeping one case at work. Right. And then she had another case that she would have at home.

[C]

It couldn't absorb into the phone case or something.

[A]

No, she just, like, didn't know because it's an organic material. She's like, I don't know if I'm bringing this home. And she worked in the icu, so her thing was like, I leave one case at home. Can I have at work? Can I get another one? So one of my customer service. Yes, we'll just send you one. Yeah, right. Like your frontline worker, all that stuff. And then I had the genius. I'm like, why don't we do a wear one wash one campaign so that we actually.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So every time you buy a case, we'll give you a second one free so that if you're a frontline worker, you're. Whatever. Oh, yeah. Anti carpet on. Yeah. I was like, I know. It was like, as advertisers are, like, that was a great time.

[B]

So you.

[D]

You quit your job?

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Wait, so.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So then what, you just looked at each other and saw each other?

[B]

I mean, we were in a fortunate position because we had one employee. You know, we're just starting. So I think if we had been the situation where now we have a team to. It would have been very different. Right. But we didn't have the history to like be down. Right. It was just like there was nowhere to go really. But, but, but we, we. Yeah. I mean we just let her stay home and we. Because at that time we could fulfill it ourselves. There was not that, you know, huge demand. It.

[D]

And well, it was definitely some late nights. I mean but you know, for, for

[C]

me, Paul, I remember it differently.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

And we've, we've all been there. I mean you got to run through walls, you got to do what you got to do. But for me, when that happened, I got to shed half of my, you know, like 80% of my schedule. Like I was free now, you know, to, to just lean in and radically focus on building BK beauty. And it was very clear to us at that not only did it need full time attention, we're six months in and we've. We definitely got something here. Let's, let's continue.

[A]

When did you guys decide that you were gonna run your own warehouse in this whole. We've got something.

[D]

Well, so again, we started at a time. You know, we started in our living room. Yeah, right. Early days. We started packing out orders with our. Just calling an army of friends and family to come help out. Cause again, you know, you don't know what you're getting into. We don't have history of demand. It's just when we launched, it was crazy. And so starting in our living room, we just continued to go from there. And then Covid hit. I'm not going to start a relationship with A3PL when they're dealing with everything that they're dealing with. And the reality is for us.

[C]

So it's like a forcing function almost for you to create your own.

[D]

We had so many constraints that we were operating under. And I want to add.

[B]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I do want to add to that because we did look at a 3/pl kind of early on. Not this early, but with after a year or so we started looking at

[D]

3pls because everyone tells you you gotta.

[B]

You do. Yeah. That's what you got hurt. Yeah. I remember specifically sitting down with a friend who's in the VC world and early on and he's like, well, you can't scale that. You're have to find a three pill. And I remember thinking, oh well, he knows better than I do. Right? Here we are seven years later, shipping.

[A]

He's still right. Like, he's probably still right. Like let's be honest.

[B]

I mean,

[A]

although I have a warehouse too.

[C]

No, see, we're fulfillment. Yes.

[B]

Well, here. So one thing that was extremely important to me because you have to remember those early days. The people that were shopping, were shopping because they wanted to support me. They followed me, they liked me, they wanted their dollars to go to support me as a person. So it was extremely personal to me that they got the best experience. And the idea that they're going to have to wait for their order or they're going to have customer service issues, that's. That are out of my control. The idea that that would happen in really terrified me. Lisa was very, I was very protective of that. And then now here I am seven years later, and we've been able to do it and do it really well. And one of the best comments I get is when a customer Sundays, I ordered three hours ago and I just got my shipping notification. That's cool that we can do that. And I think it's our secret sauce. We're able to shoot content and bring people behind this.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's actually, if your content creators like, it's a full fly, it's gold. Oh, no. I, I tend to be a big fan of like, if you can, you should do it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But my gosh, like, Katie, how many times have you rebuilt your warehouse?

[C]

A lot.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's not necessarily the easiest path.

[C]

I know that is a good problem to have. And, and my story is very similar to y. And so sitting here listening, I'm like, yeah, yeah, right. Like you know what we're doing. Yeah. But I also know how well, you know, operations and like how every. And I think keeping control of your business the way that y' all have no investors, owning every step of the process. Process, having direct relationships with your customers, like, that is so valuable. And, and it's, it's very hard to create. So I, I mean, I'm impressed because I know how hard that is.

[D]

And it, you know, when we started the business, it was the biggest thing I underestimated just the operational complexity that comes with a physical goods company moving physical goods around the world. But what I found is like, I really enjoy this. Like, it's, it's a never ending puzzle.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It's like, what's the bottleneck? And that question never ends. You know, but the reality is when you, when you start from your living room and you scale up to where we are now, it's just an incremental baby step every step along the way just to make that next unlock. And so it's, it's doable for sure.

[A]

I do think there's an advantage to have like when you own your own, like that last step of that fulfillment, a lot of people don't like. I actually think it's an important part of building a brand. Like I do. I think you can do a lot at that last step and a lot. And when you kind of outsource it, you outsource a last touch.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it's the way I've. I explained this to my team early on when we were building our factory was. It is the only thing that we do that has 100% open rate. Yeah, it is. The only thing.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Is the box that you send out is 100% open rate. It's not any SMS, it's not an email and it's certainly not any damn ad. But that box that's getting opened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if you ship them the wrong thing, they're still opening it to find out. So, like it's an opportunity.

[C]

And as I'm sure you have learned and there's a lot to learn just by going out and seeing how people are shipping. Well, hey, we're supposed to be including these inserts or why are you taping it like that? Or oh my God, that poly is so much bigger than you need. Like we should. I think the optimization that comes with having it right there in front of you.

[B]

100.

[C]

Right. Is so valuable. So it's so cool.

[A]

Do you guys have business owner, like entrepreneurs as parents you do. Like, as somebody, you do.

[D]

So my, my, my parents worked together for 40 years. My dad still. Still doing it.

[A]

So this is normal what you guys do. Like, for you. You grew up with like, you know,

[D]

I, I grew up running around his office for sure.

[C]

Says every entrepreneur ever.

[A]

I grew up in the back room of my mom's store.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

And you know what? What I think I picked up as a young kid just absorbing, naturally running around. That is just the work ethic of like what it actually takes. I don't think everyone gets exposed to that to understand what it actually takes in of terms. Terms of putting the time and pushing and work behind doing something.

[A]

So then I have to ask. When you left the cybersecurity startup to go do makeup brushes, the parents didn't ask any questions like, what the hell are you doing? Was there any moment where they were

[C]

like, dude, they were like, you got this.

[D]

Yeah. Because the reality was I didn't leave my job. We launched and they saw what we did and they're like, holy.

[C]

And they're so proud, I'm sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is.

[D]

It's pretty awesome.

[C]

I Think, too, you got to see that it can be fun to work. Like, I have entrepreneurial parents also, and I grew up in the same way. And I think it's a gift you're giving your daughters because they get to see how you two work together and how you can create this environment. I mean, you've. You have your own studio in your backyard, which is like a dream.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And you're on. On warehouse number three, right? In the last two years.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And getting ready to build PTSD.

[F]

That.

[A]

That is. That's 100% trauma.

[C]

You threw me under the bus with having too many. And I just want to say the call is breakthrough.

[D]

Well, we just moved into it three,

[C]

three months ago, so.

[D]

Yeah, it's fresh.

[C]

Yeah, it's fresh. And you did that move in like. Like on a weekend, right?

[D]

The transition, sure. But like operating from a Friday and then operating on Monday and the next one. But it was a lot of work leading up to that. The team helped and everything, but still,

[C]

you just literally stopped shipping orders on a Friday. And by the next Monday.

[A]

My first encounter with the brand was. We had you on the pod early on. Yeah. Because the whole TikTok creator thing, we were fascinated by it. Like, you guys were very early into shops, right?

[C]

Is that.

[A]

Yeah, I think, like, yeah. And I remember you came on and started talking to us about short form vertical video, and I'm like, what. What is this?

[D]

Yeah, so. So we've. We've seen the full life cycle of TikTok shops. We were one of the first merchants to get on the platform before anyone knew what was really going on. So we launched.

[C]

How did you even know to go to it?

[D]

So we launched on TikTok shops in August of 2023. And it was just an email that came across, came inbound. It was a beta that just opened, an invitation to, hey, come, you know, you're on TikTok. Try TikTok shops. And so I was like, you know, had some site and I checked it out, I started to see what they're putting together, and what I found was they were building the entire Playbook we had been operating, but now in a closed loop system where everything's working from product sampling to affiliate commissions to, you know, commerce through content and working with creators. And so we leaned in and once we got in there, we saw some early success. And it was very clear that this is what we were waiting for. A platform that really brought all those building blocks of our Playbook under one platform in kind of a closed loop system. And now the algorithm's really keying in on that transactional data.

[C]

Did you have a heart attack when TikTok went down for.

[B]

No.

[C]

You thought.

[B]

I mean, we knew. Yeah, I knew it'd be back. I want to say too, we had. We had done a lot of the hard work before TikTok shop was even on board.

[C]

Right.

[B]

We had already started building relationships with creators on TikTok on the platform. We were already seeding them. We were already building those relationships. So when TikTok shop was, you know, activated, it was just like that. They already fans of the brand. They were already making content. They just weren't able to be monetized from it.

[A]

Yeah. It's so incredible. Like, you're.

[B]

We planted the seeds.

[A]

Yeah. And your timing, even just like making the jump into it. Like, I'll be honest that I was very bearish on TikTok shops. I'll tell you why. Because, like, I've been in this business 20 years. I've watched Meta try like four times, times to be a merchant of record, like some version of a Shops thing. And then TikTok, I'm like, okay, guys, like, good luck. Like, we've watched Facebook screw this up so many times. And yet they didn't. Like, they combined the right ingredients.

[D]

And just not only that, but what they did, unlike, say, what MET has done in the past or other platforms attempted to do, they didn't bolt this on. They completely transformed the entire platform. Like, this is what they became. And the investments they made made to not only court brands, to be in there and play with hesitation, you know, the way you were feeling was very natural. I think that was. That was probably how most people were feeling. And they had to convince merchants to get in and start actively leaning in to selling within the platform. They had to convince the content creators to start changing their behaviors and tagging products. They had to convince consumers to feel comfortable purchasing something on TikTok, which that's not an easy thing to do.

[F]

Yeah.

[D]

And what they did was they overhauled the entire platform. And just the subsidies at the time that they were doing, just to make. It was mental to just condition behavior from all three of those, you know, legs of the stool.

[C]

Do you think any of the other. Do you think YouTube will ever be able to do something similar or. Or will Meta try? They're trying again. They're trying.

[A]

Instagram's gonna have a Shops.

[D]

Yeah, I think when TikTok. TikTok proved and what they're still pushing into it. Basically all the other platforms are taking Notes from it, because there's something there. And so we're still obviously very involved with the YouTube team. YouTube shopping, you know, they've started to build out the building blocks that we're seeing in TikTok. And so we're very close with that team over there. We get to see kind of what they're working on. And the reality is the platforms are leaning towards this. It makes so much sense if you think about it. It's incentivizing all the content creators to produce an abundance of more content, the frequency of which they're pushing it out. Like on TikTok, folks are pushing all day long, dozens of pieces of content a day.

[A]

Like TikTok is also weirdly very pro creator and anti AI when it comes to this stuff. Right. Like they've actually had policies around this where they've been like, no, no, we want more and more like human creators.

[D]

Creators on TikTok.

[A]

Yeah, it's a big part of what they.

[D]

So we still see a lot of

[A]

AI you do, but they actually don't want it. Like they're, they're very, like, they actively try to police it. Whereas Meta has been less kind of hands on. No, I think you're. I think you're right. I think it's like they're all angling this way. One of the things I've. I think I made this observation on another episode we did, But I think TikTok's biggest advantage in all this is like there's been no innovators dilemma. They on a. They had no way to monetize their users. Users the way that Meta had already done. So Meta had this ad machine that was making like 33 bucks per user, whatever, which was just an incredible amount of monetization. TikTok had no way to make that level of money. So they looked at shops and they were like, this might be it, let's go O on this. We can't do an ad platform like that.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

The reality was having gotten exposure to the TikTok team very early and working with them because we had so much success out of the game. Like they opened the door. Like we were very plugged in with their team and what they were building. What I found was they were not competing with Meta, they're competing with Amazon.

[A]

Oh yeah, dude, a hundred percent. They were going after Marketplace.

[D]

Yeah, a hundred percent. And so if you think about it, and even all the employees internally at TikTok, they're recruiting them from Amazon, from Walmart, they were going commerce. Like the platform evolved and changed. Um, yeah, it was, it was different.

[A]

Do you think you had an advantage as a creator? So like what you're talking about is like a classic new platform arbitrage moment. It happens all the time.

[D]

No, sorry, Right.

[A]

Sometimes.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Where like something comes along and people under the sort of. We undervalue the inventory. You're like, no, no, we're going all in. Did you have an advantage as a creator reaching out to creators and like getting them on board? Because like, did you know kind of what to say and what they wanted and how to talk. Talk to them?

[C]

And can you write that down and tell me we're recording this right.

[B]

Exactly how to do this exactly. I wish I could take the credit for being that person that did all the outreach. We have an incredible woman on our team. Her name is Sophia and she manages Influencer. But I do think to your question is that me being a creator, a beauty creator, you know, founded brand, I think that gives us a lot of credibility and just a. An insert to other creators that other big brands without that story have.

[D]

I would say it's our, it's always been our superpower because we sit on both sides of the fence.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So we understand the mindset and motivation of the content creator and how to play in that sandbox. Right. And so, yeah, we were uniquely positioned. So not only was it the right time, the right place, but I think it was the right people to really lean in at the time and just make the most and get the traction that we did out of the gate with TikTok Shop when it came on the scene.

[A]

Has it the, ah, this might be a little nuanced, like for people listening, but TikTok shops in particular, you guys have been in there right from day one. How are you? How would you assess the platform today? Like as a channel new brand? Like, you know, neither one of us does anything on TikTok.

[C]

Do you think it's had its moment or is it still.

[D]

Again, we. We've experienced the life cycle of TikTok shop. And so it's going on almost three years that we've been on. The first 18 months were I would call the golden age of TikTok Talk Shop. Every new platform is going to have that period where it's the arbitrage of you've got to get in, you know, the. It's going to end, this ride's going to end someday. So make the most out of it while. While, you know, make, hey, while this. While the sun's shining.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

We kind of recognize that, you know, you know, reflecting back on kind of the early metadays of acquiring customers on that channel or Google with search, like when it's just so affordable and you just.

[C]

And people should have all gone faster,

[D]

should have gone faster and harder. And so that was always in the back of my head like, hey, this is the moment, seize it.

[C]

And you felt it.

[D]

And we leaned in and. Yeah. And so the first 18 months, the subsidies were flowing right, in the forms of free shipping for customers, discounts that TikTok was layering on. So conversions were just happening like crazy, right. They had to condition the customer and that's how they were going to do it. And it was working. And so there was a lot of gravy moving around on the table and we scooped some of that.

[C]

And makeup content was the ultimate, the

[B]

perfect category for Tik Tok. Yeah, it did. I think it did pose a challenge for us though. And I see why other brands couldn't really, you know, follow the same playbook is because the discounting had to be so deep and so you had to have these, these massive discounts so frequently. Right.

[D]

For some people.

[A]

I remember this was the conversation for a lot of older brands. It was like, how the hell do I even do this? Like, how do I.

[C]

Because Amazon makes them keep it at one price and you didn't have, we

[D]

were not on Amazon at the time. Everything. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Well, I think even just from a brand integrity, you know, having your brand 40, 50% off all the time, that

[A]

was why we weren't there. We were like, we just, I can't

[B]

do this, you can't do that.

[D]

It's definitely a real concern. And, and we didn't have control over it because those were being applied by TikTok. And, and we had the same concerns. We were like, you know, is this right, should do, should we have a.

[B]

It's a conversation for sure that we were like, when, when do we slow this down?

[D]

But what we found was like, TikTok isn't actually chamber, right? What happens in TikTok doesn't really leave TikTok. And so it's experienced by those users in that closed loop system and they experience your brand in a unique way. Not only that, but there's different, like corners of TikTok and the people in those corners get served up very different content. So they may see your brand in a very different way. And what we found was we were able to reach a younger demographic who, who now is being able to relate to our brand in a way that we we were no longer directing. We didn't have as much control over it. The algorithm and the content was really doing the work for us and it was really interesting to see that evolve over time.

[C]

Okay, so with your new product category that's coming out, do you think it's going to be as easy to get into the TikTok shops and have the, the viral aspect of it, or are you going to have to start from scratch product seeding and build it back up, or do you think you kind of have like the cheat sheet to it now?

[D]

I would say say it. So the products we're getting into and expand, it's a little higher price point. I think it's not quite optimized from a product standpoint, but what it enables us to do is do some unique bundling. And bundling on TikTok really allows us a new superpower that we didn't have in the past. I mean, we do brush sets and brush bundles and all that, but now with another product category that pairs with our brushes, there's just a lot of unique ways we can package that up and, you know, look to the brushes and, and subsidize and really kind of create some compelling offers that make a lot of sense. That's not something we've had in the past and I think it's going to be a big unlock for us.

[C]

Well, for so many aspects like ltv, all your loyal customers that love your brushes and already trust you even more. Right. We'll come back and buy your new products.

[B]

Yeah. So the first two products that we're launching, we actually designed them to pair with one of our best selling brushes. So we have Smart. Right. So that'll be a bundle that I think people will be really excited. But I mean, there'll definitely need to be a lot of seeding, you know, to, to get that, get the content flowing and to.

[A]

So can I ask a follow up on this though? TikTok. Has the, the focus on TikTok shops ever come back to bite you? Like, has that hurt? Has it like slowed you down? Has it like tripped you up in any way? Or has it just been like pretty smooth sailing?

[D]

Like the.

[A]

No problem.

[D]

I think initially some of the friction points that we found, found that we had to kind of learn from was it was new.

[A]

That's why I'm asking.

[D]

Well, so not all customers are TikTok shop customers. And when we have moments within the platform, maybe it's a big live stream that we're doing or maybe it's a compelling offer. That's just TikTok exclusive. What we found was if we leverage our email list to get that messaging out to drive people to TikTok, there's a good chunk of people that really don't want to have anything to do with that yet. And so the way, and so we learned that we got feedback from our customers like, hey, like, I actually don't like the fact that you're on TikTok. And you know, I think that's changing though. It certainly is changing.

[A]

I'm talking about the brand perception of TikTok shops is, is, is mature.

[B]

I read today that that TikTok is like the fourth largest beauty, like retailer in the. If it was a retailer, it'd be like the fourth largest in America.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I mean you can't ignore it. Right? Like, and every big brand is now on it. But these early days, days it wasn't. You didn't see the big brands, the legacy brands on there. But now, now you.

[C]

Do you think you have more growth Runway in TikTok shops or.

[B]

I don't know, there's still a bunch. Yeah.

[D]

And I think it all, it plays together. And so we're radically focused on, you know, building TikTok shops right now. What we found is all other channels are getting easier the more that we really radically focus on that specific point.

[A]

Yeah, it's just monster top of funnel engine. Right. We've seen lots of brands that like just figure out that thing and the halo effect is like 1 to 5, 1 to 7, whatever it is, effect

[D]

is real and even side of that. So last 30 days we seeded another 1500 products.

[C]

Oh my God.

[A]

1500 creators.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

In 30 days. You seeded 1500 creators in the last 30 days also.

[A]

Will you turn the cameras off? I need to learn how to do this.

[D]

Within TikTok, 2,500 new pieces of net new content were produced within TikTok. And so beyond the halo effect and the demand engine that that is delivering for us, leveraging that content that is scaled, tested in terms of conversion and driving sales and then bringing that over into meta. Yeah, like it's, it's just, it's the wellspring of everything we're doing and we're radically focused, but it hits everything else.

[A]

Are you largely. Could you give maybe give us a breakdown of like the mix of creators between who are you like putting on retainers and paid versus who's affiliate, like how do you work upstack the whole stack of soaps.

[D]

So everything that we've done is really focused on Affiliates. When I say influencer marketing. Marketing, like it's really an affiliate process. The way that we view TikTok and the way that TikTok, you know, trains you to view things is to break out the creators across different tiers. And so there's an L1 through an L7 and.

[E]

And above.

[D]

Right. So take an L3. An L3 creator.

[C]

Is this based off the size of.

[B]

Based off the conversions that they've sold

[D]

over the last 30 days.

[A]

And this is their terminology, like L1L.

[C]

Oh, you didn't know that?

[B]

Also

[A]

told you. I'm here to just be the dumb one at the table. This is literally my job.

[C]

I can. I have a notepad. I keep going. This is so good.

[D]

And so the volume of creators are going to be existing in the L1, L2 category. Right.

[E]

That's.

[D]

It's huge volume. But they're not producing as much TMV as some of the bigger creators who are really pushing stuff.

[C]

So A one is the best.

[D]

No one is a smaller GMB driver.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

This is really what I'm getting at is there's definitely a methodology on how to approach working with creators at scale in a platform like TikTok Shop. It all starts with the product seating supported by affiliate commissions. And it's a huge flywheel. And now for the first time. Well, I guess it really started early 2025, but it's definitely become a pay to play kind of game. But you're not paying the creators directly. You're paying the platform in the form of GMV max ad spend.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you started, it was largely like organic reach 100. I mean, this is just the nature.

[B]

We've actually done very little paid like collabs with. With influencers.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, creators even on Instagram or. Or YouTube.

[B]

I mean, I think we've. We've worked with. We've done maybe five deals over the seven years.

[A]

Yeah. How do you.

[C]

Okay, you're hogging all the questions. I have so many. Like, wait, I still want to know what an L3 is.

[A]

The better one.

[B]

That's always better.

[C]

So if you focus on. You're saying like L7, forget that they're losers.

[D]

No, no, no. There's just. Okay, so, so the, the other.

[C]

I'm really trying to understand this outside.

[D]

Outside of product sampling. Right. Which is just cogs, you know, going out the door. TikTok has automated a lot of this, so there's no overhead for us to send out 1500 packages a month. In terms of product seating.

[C]

It's just cost.

[D]

There's no friction.

[B]

It's just cost. Strange.

[D]

But the challenge that we're trying to figure out right now is okay, how do you retain creators market month over month? Right. How can we focus on L3 and above and what's our retention rate so that the folks that posted content last month, they do it again this month.

[C]

Do you get. And you get a report with a ranking on who's posting the most and what's converting the best. But can't you just reach back out to them and.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And so maybe offer a better commission? Yeah. Is it like a.

[D]

Well, so the reality is, I think the right way to approach it is the L3 and below, like the mass volume of creators that are driving lower GMV individually. But in total it's adding up to something, facilitating some sort of discord group or you know, get them in a channel with the founder, teach them how to be successful. And so our brand is successful when they're successful, we're not putting money in their pockets. We're benefiting too.

[A]

Who does that? Does one of you take the lead?

[B]

That really hasn't been anything we've done yet. That's something we, we need to start doing.

[D]

Retention is our, our big focus right now. You know, if you think about three and above, it requires more personal connection. Right. And so in real life events, they want to have a connection to the brain.

[C]

Irl, everything's an acronym now.

[A]

We're old enough to know what that is.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[D]

So we're, we're trying to figure that out. And so next month we are flying in a group of TikTok creators or our top GMV.

[B]

Yeah, a small group. There's ones. The one. No, the higher. Wait, we need to have a side conversation after this.

[A]

One higher number.

[D]

Better.

[C]

The top producers for you, for us individually, anywhere in this one to seven scale.

[B]

Well, they're generally going to be.

[C]

Do they know where they rank?

[D]

Well, I was going to say like if they're.

[C]

Are they like here five Fives are in that corner.

[A]

When they get here, they give you a little number and they need to know.

[D]

But what I will say, which. It's a good question. So TikTok has been. TikTok has been. They gamify everything.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And so on the creator side, the brand, the amount of data that they share with you, it's, it's overload at some point, but it, it just really aligns your behavior and incentivizes you to do what they want. And it's in everyone's interest because we want to grow our brand within the platform, but you get so much visibility to. And the creators do as well. So yes, they know where they're standing in terms of what they're producing, what's working, what's not, and then they just do more of what's working.

[A]

Okay, so I like the question I have to ask and it's more around like a conflict. I see. So you guys have built BK Beauty on affiliate on TikTok shops. Not a lot of paid creator, but yet your personal business as a creator is paid creator doing brand deals. Why don't you guys do brand deals with other creators and do you see a future where you will and just give me a read on the industry around this too because, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm always torn on this, like I don't know where this stuff is going.

[B]

Yeah, that, that's a really interesting question. And you know, because like you said, I'm still, I still consider myself a creator and influencer. I work with brands, I do paid sponsorships with brands and then I'm also a brand founder. Right. And I think, you know, to answer your question right on why we haven't done it, to be honest and frank, you in the early days we just didn't have the budget for that. I mean, creator marketing is so expensive. Right. I have so many friends that are creators and when I find out what, what I mean, I'm getting paid too, but like these rates are so high. And as a brand founder in my head I'm like, okay, if I'm going to pay that flat fee, I'm expecting three times that in sales. And that's just not really happening because the rates are so inflated. Right. And, and, and so, you know, in the early days we just didn't have the budget. And then we've just done an exceptional job of nurturing creator relations, relationships, like authentically. Right. I think we do a really great job of that. And that does take a lot of time and that takes the right people on your team that can do that and do that well for you. Right. And I get that some brands want to just be able to essentially pay, turn on the light switch, get that exposure, that content, but it doesn't always convert. And when it's, and when you're paying, you know, $10,000 for a 30 second reel and you're generating $3,000 in sales from it, it's like, does that make sense?

[A]

You know, I think there was a, if you look back over the last decade, there was a moment in time where like there was a real arbitrage on YouTube creatives. So like you could go, I don't think Sean's talked about this. Like Ridge did really well at one moment because they could go on YouTube and just like pay a little bit of money to a YouTube creator. YouTube creator be like, absolutely, I'll do product placement or they'll do a whole video on it. And then other category, other industries showed up. It could be a lot more. So like rates went up. I think what also happened, Jeff, you're hitting on is that creators realize that they are also brands and that their feed, right. If I look at like an Instagram feed for a creator, that is their brand. So like if you as a another brand are trying to insert yourself into that, that's very expensive real estate. And in my view, like I'm not a creator. It should be expensive real estate. Like you're, it's, it's out of place right? Like that. Like you shouldn't just like see a grid of stuff. All of a sudden this is like this weird thing in the middle of it. So I think that's where I actually am a big fan of what you guys do with TikTok shops with affiliate. This is why I think creators all going here too is it's just more

[B]

honest 100 and that's the content that performs better. I think that's the content that's actually going to move your product. And, and if you're a brand that has the budgets to, to pay creators for like exposure and not necessarily focused on the conversion or what that content is generating sales, we're not that brand. Right. If we're going to put the money, we need the money to get come back to us. But I think that that's, that's part of the reason, you know, and it just doesn't perform the way that organic, honest content performs.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's why we also see the rise of partnership ads on meta is that that also is a mechanism where like you can as a brand work with a creator. You're not in their feed, you're not on their stories, but you can still use the creator's likeness and the algorithm's got an audience advantage that plays there. And I think that that's also like just trend wise how if you were starting over today, would you still run this playbook? Would you still say like I would still go hard after creator relationship, like affiliate same same thing. Like would you change anything for somebody

[B]

starting over, I'm gonna say we'd do the same thing over.

[D]

I would too. And to put a little more color on that, if you think about a decade ago, the last playbook, you know, starting with the Meta arbitrage and zero scaling up customer acquisition on Meta, you know, I feel as though right now influencer relations, for the first time you're able to really tie it to revenue very closely.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

And so it's providing those that are coming up the track within a company like ours from the influencer relations track to be accountable for everything. Right. It's no longer emv, this squishy metric that doesn't tie back. It's not a proxy metric. Like I am seeing sales being generated from these activities that we're doing internally and I.

[A]

That's so interesting. Do you see the creators also evolving now because the tools are here so like the visibility into their performance is just so front and center back to the whole L1 through 8 thing like that. They are now adapting and saying, oh, I don't want to be played flat fee. I want commission. I'm really damn good at this.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. I have a. I have a creator friend who doesn't do any sponsor deals. She never takes sponsor deals. But what she does really well, she negotiates higher commission rates with the brand. So good they'll reach out to her. We'd love to sponsor a video of yours. How much is your rate? Nope, I'm not going to take that. But Instead pay me 30 of whatever I sell because she knows, she knows she can do it and she does it real well.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This, it's. I mean, if you just think of it like commerce broadly, this makes so much sense to me. Like people buy from people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Creators are the ultimate sort of like channel and it probably will be for a long time because this is like just, it's a parasocial relationship. It's like, like if you were to recommend Katie a product, Katie's probably listen to you just as a friend. Right. So people feel like creators are their friends.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So it just works.

[B]

And the creators that don't take sponsorships, like my friend, I have a few of them, they have built a trust that is unlike any other creator because they've never said I'm, I partnered with so and so to tell you why I love their product. Right. They've never had to say that. And they're still be able to talk about products that they love. But there's, there's not that disclaimer. There's not that flat fee that's exchanged and therefore the. Their content is so organic. Organic, Yeah.

[A]

I have daughter. She's 10. She's almost 11. I saw. I want to know your opinion as a creator. Is there an age or, or do you have a view on social with kids, should they be like, when should they be allowed to go on number one, when should they be creating content? So, like, your daughters come to you like, mom, I want to be. I want to be just like you.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I wish they would say that, make me so happy. So I have feelings about that. You know, when they got on social media, private accounts. Right. We're not creating. My youngest daughter, I did let her start a YouTube channel because she started a nail business where she's making these press on nails and selling them. So her deal was you can start a YouTube channel around the process of making nails. Right. So you're. You're showing the process of making the nails. A lot of it doesn't even have your face in it. It's just your hands. It's not you dancing and showing outfits on. You know, it's so. So for that reason, I'm allowing her to, to do it. But I do have feelings. I do think that. And she's 11, by the way. Um, I, I do think that when kids are on social media too young, and I would consider that to be too young to be a personality, I think there's a lot of downfall to that. Their brains are just not equipped to handle the negative, the negative comments or the judging their worth or their value on how many likes or how many comments or. And all of that, it's very addicting and, and just opening themselves up publicly to all the weirdos on the Internet, you know, like, no, there, there's a.

[A]

But. So I was at a Formula one race in Montreal a few weeks ago, and the kid that won is 19 years old. And I'm not like a big race nerd, but my buddy that brought me is a huge race nerd. And I'm like, why is the 19 year old so much better? Like, what. What is the difference? He's like underdeveloped. Prefrontal cortex. He's like that. When they're younger, they have risk.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

They have absolutely no fear. They don't think about the risk of the decisions they're making. Which just makes me think of like, if you're 11 or 12 or 14 or 18. Eighteen.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're going out and you're going on these platforms, you have no Idea the risks that are out there, because you don't see any. Just like this kid gets in a car and goes 320 kilometers.

[C]

So we should.

[A]

240 miles an hour.

[C]

We should be having our kids start businesses earlier.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, like, they have no concept of risk.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's no downside in their life.

[E]

Right.

[A]

They think they're made of rubber. Every time they fall, it just bounce.

[B]

Oh, she's. She's got this business down. She told me. She's like, mom, I put out a promo. I'm like, you did? What's your promo? She's got. I text all my friends in the group chat, and I said, this week, only buy two get one free.

[C]

Free.

[B]

The free one is 20 value or less.

[C]

Are you so proud?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I'd be just glowing. Like, she's making.

[B]

She's great. And I'm actually taking her to an annual YouTube conference that I go to with all the big YouTubers there. I mean, he hasn't been there in a couple years, but Mr. Beast was there about three years ago. All the big players. A lot of kid channels are there that she knows, and it's all about how to be successful on YouTube, because that's so valuable. And I don't need her to go out and, you know, have a million subscribers and build a business at 11 or 12 years old. But having that. That skill like this is.

[C]

Or having the confidence to know that she can do that is gonna just, you know.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Did I tell you? I forget when we got dinner in. In Palm Springs, about my daughter in their class last year? I think I've told you this. They had to build a business as part of school and. But it's like a little farmer's market business. So, like, you had to come up with something to sell. So my. My daughter comes home, she's like, I think I. I know what I'm going to do. I'm like, okay, lay it on me.

[C]

Uh.

[A]

She's like, I wanna. I'm gonna buy gold boxes and there's gonna be candy in the boxes. I'm like, okay, this is not original. She's like, but in five of the boxes, I'm gonna put five bucks, and you can't see what's in the box, so every box is $4, but you got a chance of winning five bucks. And I'm like, have you told your teacher this? She's like, yeah. I'm like, what does the teacher think? He's like, he's not sure. And I'm like, it's. Cause you're gonna turn your classmates into gamblers like you.

[B]

You.

[A]

I can't.

[F]

I don't know that.

[A]

This is great. So I. I was so happy. I'm like secretly. I'm like, this is so my kid. I'm like, this is a great offer. She sold every damn box. Like the kids were going back to their parents to beg the mom for more money. I'm like, I gotta win my five bucks back. And I'm like, you're 20 bucks deep, kid. You should probably stop.

[B]

How funny.

[A]

I love this. Okay, I think where I'd like to go because we've been chatting for a while and I got a sense for how you guys run the company. I want to go in. I. I just want to ask you. Like, we. We deducted this segment called the Titan Dead. This is like a bunch of questions that we just throw. I actually really curious to see if you have different answers, like different seats in the company. So if you guys are willing to play the game that way. We did this with, I think Jeremy and Cassandra too, and it was fun. So I'm just going to throw questions at you. We'll go. Okay, so first one, I know it's

[D]

like, what are we going to do?

[A]

Uh, you get to a desert island. You still have to run the business from the desert island. I'm only gonna give you three numbers on a piece of paper to tell you how the business is doing. What three numbers are on that piece of paper? Angely says.

[B]

Okay, so I'm gonna kind of think about this from my creator side of the business. Yeah, I would definitely say views, comments, and engagement and. And revenue commissions.

[D]

I'm gonna keep it simple. Cause if I'm on a desert island, like, I just need to know about sales, profit, and cash in the bank.

[A]

Yeah, I like it. Yeah. Yeah, do that.

[C]

That was right on with both of there. Yeah.

[A]

You also get to take a book, but it can't be about business. What book are you taking?

[D]

I've got. What is it? Project Hail Mary on my desk right now. I've gotten through a chapter or two, but haven't had the time to kind of really finish it out. I love the Martian. I don't read a lot of fiction, but the Martian was the last nice one I did. I'm looking forward to that.

[B]

And I would take the Hoffman process book.

[A]

Oh, that's right. I love you.

[B]

Of activities that kind of walk you through that process again. I did the process a couple years ago and loved it.

[A]

Do you know this is the second Blake McCoskey, because that's the first step.

[B]

Yeah, that's how I heard about it. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's the second time we've heard it. I'm just.

[C]

Do you know the steps?

[A]

I don't know, but I know Blake is a big. This.

[B]

I think I heard about him talk about it first, and then I heard Scooter Braun talk about it, and then I booked it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Okay, so what is one or two? Like, give me a contrarian.

[E]

Take that.

[A]

You have about business that most other founders, most other operators might disagree with.

[B]

I think we have the same one here. Well, probably. Yeah, I think. I think that you. That you have to. You have to outsource to 3 PL. Having your own warehouse and doing your own distribution. I mean, your own fulfillment is. You can do that. I think that I would.

[C]

You can. Yeah, you can. It turns out. You can.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna. We're gonna clip that for. We had another episode recently where Mike was like, do not do this. And I'm like, I'm just gonna put you guys on top of each other.

[D]

I. I'd say the same thing. I mean, when we started, everyone was telling us, you have to go to 3 PL. Why are you still doing this? And, you know, we're still doing it. And I. For our business, what I found is it's the right decision. And.

[B]

And it's fine.

[D]

Yeah, it is fun.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

You.

[A]

I mean, you clearly. You're damn good at it. 20,000 orders in a couple days is real.

[B]

2,000.

[A]

22,000. Oh, jeez.

[D]

And I. I will say, and you guys, I'm sure, experienced this too, doing fulfillment in house, but when we first launched into Amazon, this was maybe two years ago, we experienced our first big prime day. Right? The first prime day was like, our biggest sales day in company history. The second prime day the day after was. Beat that.

[C]

The second prime.

[D]

But our office was quiet. Like, we were just seeing numbers increment on a screen. It was so boring. Felt like to be part of the energy. Music blasting. Fulfillment's right over there. It keeps things fresh for me, and I personally, I can't do the same thing over and over again. And so I think operations, fulfillment, as you continue to grow as a business, like, you get to see the next levels physically and feel it.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Touch and feel like that's celebrated. Business is all about.

[A]

Dude, I've talked. I. I literally talk to hundreds of operators every year. I've never heard that take before. And I love It. Because like, when you're in E Comm, we are. We're moving atoms around the world.

[E]

Right?

[A]

Like, we're. It's not. We're not software businesses, but if you don't ever go and touch the atoms or how close to the thing are you really? How real is the business? Oh, I freaking love that. Yeah, I'm gonna steal that. Just like, give you an FYI. Like, I'm absolutely ripping that off. That's awesome.

[D]

And I can tell you guys to fill in house because it resonates with you. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What do you think the single most important word in leadership is?

[D]

Trust.

[B]

I say accountability.

[A]

Single most important word in business.

[B]

Customer.

[D]

Oh, nice.

[A]

You're the first person that's ever said that.

[B]

No. Are you being sarcastic? Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

For. Again, so good.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Well, now my answer means nothing. I gotta say margin.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's also good.

[C]

I thought you were gonna say 3 PL or not.

[B]

Well, when you say that immediately when you said margin or my. I can remember clearly walking in the neighborhood in our old neighborhood old house, you know, before we were launching. We're talking about. Or before we were launching lipsticks and we were talking about what we had to price them at. And I remember struggling with you on the price that you said we had to price the max. I'm like, that just seems too high, you know? I know. And. And at the time, we had a tiny little office. We didn't have the overhead we had. But he had to, you know, explain to me that this is how you have to have a healthy business. Like, if you don't have the margins built in, you can't grow and do what we've been able to do.

[D]

And our first year in business was 100 organic. So we had not yet started no marketing.

[A]

You were drunk on free.

[D]

We were.

[A]

That's a terrible thing to get.

[C]

We're making 99%.

[F]

Exactly.

[A]

It's like, I remember those days too. It's like money just showed up.

[D]

Get into a, you know, scalable, predictable revenue and tapping into the paid acquisition. Like, you need the margins to support that.

[A]

You know, the. That's. I say it's a really great trade. I tell people this all the time. If you are great at organic, that's amazing. It sound you're going to trade margin for predictability with paid. And it's actually a really nice trade because then you have both. You've got like, you know, really high margin. It's free, it's organic. But I can layer in predictability. And I also like, predictability. I don't like having to roll the dice on a viral video every now

[B]

and again when we wouldn't have been able to do what we did on TikTok shop if we didn't have the margins to discount it and to do everything we've done.

[C]

So.

[A]

All right, let's have some fun. Favorite meal of the day and why I would.

[B]

I would normally have said breakfast, but now it'd be lunch because I don't really eat breakfast anymore. Lunch is kind of my first meal of the day.

[D]

Yeah, I don't typically eat breakfast either, but it's still my favorite because of the coffee. Coffee, yes.

[A]

Coffee is breakfast.

[D]

Okay. Yes. Breakfast for sure.

[B]

I have, like, four or five drinks I drink in the morning that lead me up till 11:30pm I mean, am. And then I eat my lunch. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What do you think the most overrated growth tactic is?

[B]

I'm going to say paid influencer marketing is probably the most overrated. Is that bad?

[A]

Coming from that?

[C]

Perfect.

[A]

That's great, Paul. Recover,

[D]

I would say, you know, moving. Moving on to the next platform before you've really mastered what's working. I think spreading yourself too thin, like, radical focus.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the word, for me, the word of this episode is focus, for sure. You guys have, like, it's. I. I love it so much. Okay, then the flip side, that is. What is the most underrated?

[B]

Underrated is investing time into authentically nurturing relationships with creators, you know, and just. And really investing deep into those relationships. We love our. We love our creators. I'm one, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And for me, it's. It's just, you know, going deeper and not wider. Right. And so it goes back to focus. I think that's. That's the big one. I think going deeper and mastering something like this, working more so than anyone else, is way underrated.

[A]

Guys, I'm. I'm blown away. This is great.

[E]

So good.

[A]

Yeah. I'm so first. Thank you for letting us in your house to do this.

[D]

Thank you for coming.

[A]

This is great. And I think that the people who. If you stayed this long in the episode, like, I mean, if you didn't learn something, you're an idiot. You didn't learn something. You saw. This is great. This is the pod.

[B]

Awesome.

[D]

You did it.

[E]

It.