Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee: Sufism 101

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Podcast: Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee – Sufism 101

Date: July 1, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee, Sufi teacher and mystic

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Overview

In this deeply contemplative episode, Oprah sits down under her oak trees with renowned Sufi teacher Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee to demystify Sufism. Together, they explore concepts at the heart of Sufi spirituality: love, the pursuit of oneness, the longing of the soul, the role of ego, and how mysticism invites us to live in greater harmony with ourselves, each other, and the planet. With warmth and clarity, the conversation weaves personal stories, Sufi poetry, and practical teachings—offering accessible wisdom for the spiritual seeker and the curious listener alike.

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Key Discussion Points

1. What is Sufism? (03:28–07:20)

• Love at the Core:
  • Sufism is described “first of all, as about love, about the heart” and the “extraordinary secret that within our spiritual heart, we have a direct connection to God.”
    — Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee [05:26]
• Inclusive Spirituality:
  • Sufism brings people of all religions to a deeper, more loving practice—not to abandon tradition but to “live it.”
  • “The Sufi movement is a group of people belonging to different religions… Their love is the love for God and humanity instead of a particular section of it.”
    — Oprah quoting Hazrat Inayat Khan [04:09]
• Oneness:
  • At the core of all mystical paths: “Everything is God. There is nothing other than God.”
    — Llewellyn [06:16]

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2. The Longing and Love of the Soul (07:21–10:55)

• Longing for God / The Beloved:
  • Oprah shares a moving quotation: “Since I learned that he longs for me, longing for him never leaves me for an instant.” — Oprah quoting Llewellyn [08:32]
  • Llewellyn elaborates: “He longs for us… We call it the beloved philosophy. That love affair, it longs for us.” [08:40]
• Intimacy of Divine Experience:
  • God is not ‘out there’, but “as close as your own breath.”
    — Llewellyn [09:54]
• The Heart as Center:
  • “If you go into the core of your being… what do you find there? Either love or longing for love.”
    — Llewellyn [07:22]
• Memorable Quote:
  • “God does not look at the outer form. He looks at the love within your love.”
    — Llewellyn [07:22]

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3. The Role and Surrender of Ego (13:39–15:38)

• Crucifixion of the Ego:
  • “The Sufi says, talk about dying before death. You die to the ego. For most people, the ego is the king.”
    — Llewellyn [14:04]
  • On ego’s surrender: “There comes a point on the path when the ego bows its head in surrender. It is no longer the king of the castle.” [15:10]
• Mystical Experience:
  • On dissolving ego: “I've had experiences of having no ego. And then you are everything. You are every leaf, you are every cloud, you are every car, you are every sound.”
    — Llewellyn [15:17]
  • “It's called in Sufism, you dissolve. The ego dissolves like sugar in water.” [15:38]
• Service:
  • Surrendering ego leads to a life of service: “What does it mean to be in service? It means you surrender to somebody else's will or whatever it is that asks you, that calls you to be in service.”
    — Llewellyn [15:38]

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4. Ecological Crisis & Remembering the Sacred (11:44–13:39)

• Our Relationship to the World:
  • “We are destroying this incredibly beautiful planet… because we’ve forgotten that everything is sacred.”
    — Llewellyn [12:04]
  • Call to sacred stewardship: “If it belongs to God, then you treat it sacred. Every leaf is sacred. Every tree is sacred.” [12:14]
• World Soul:
  • “The world has a soul, too. And we are part of it... We are part of this incredible miracle that has a sacred core at its very center.”
    — Llewellyn [13:08]

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5. The Path of Service (24:56–25:41)

• Living Sufism in Daily Life:
  • “Sufis are known as the slaves of the one and the servants of the many. We are the slaves of God and the servants of humanity.” — Llewellyn [24:58]
  • Sufism calls for being present and engaged in the world—in any role that life and God assign you.
• Inclusiveness:
  • “You can be a Christian, you can be a Buddhist… It doesn't matter. That's the outer form you live in. What matters is how you live your relationship to God, that secret inner calling within the heart.” — Llewellyn [25:41]
  • Sufism deepens, but does not replace, one’s faith tradition.

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6. The Three Journeys: From God, To God, In God (21:03–23:45)

• Stages of Spiritual Awareness:
  • “The journey from God is a journey of forgetfulness… The journey to God is… when something wakes them up. The journey in God is living in alignment with the Beloved.”
    — Llewellyn [21:09–21:13]
  • Awakening often comes through love, longing, or crisis—a “homesickness of the soul.”
• Oprah’s Reflection:
  • “In God, I move and breathe and have my being.” [23:58]

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7. The Pain—and Gift—of Transformation (27:20–28:51)

• Breaking Open the Heart:
  • “When I came to my teacher and I was 19, I was so arrogant… one has to learn humility. You have to learn patience. You have to learn that it isn’t about you. And those are all painful lessons.”
    — Llewellyn [27:34]
  • “The heart must break open… I am with those whose hearts are broken for my sake.” [28:05–28:23]
  • Only when “the heart breaks” can we live “in alignment with the beloved… in a constant state of, how can I serve?” [28:35]

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8. Soul, Immortality, and Death (40:14–41:54)

• Nature of the Soul:
  • “The soul is the divine part of our self… It is the immortal, eternal part of ourselves. Never dies, never dies. It's immortal. It belongs to God.”
    — Llewellyn [40:17]
• Death Before Dying:
  • “Sufis talk about to die before you die. Then you know you can't die... You know that this leaving this physical world, beautiful as it is, will be a transition to another world which is infinitely more beautiful.”
    — Llewellyn [41:09]

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9. Remembrance & Listening for God (42:35–43:16)

• Individual Pathways:
  • “There are as many ways to God as there are human beings... For some people, it is through a life of service, like Mother Teresa. For other people… meditation. For some… music. For some… painting.”
    — Llewellyn [42:41]
• Practice:
  • “We have to listen and respect the voice of God within ourselves.” [43:16]

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10. Oneness, Mysticism, and Modern Life (32:24–35:37)

• Oneness as the Life Force:
  • “We are all one. God is one. Everything is part of this living, breathing oneness…”
    — Llewellyn [32:24]
  • Technology and the internet can be “symbols of oneness,” reconnecting us to each other globally if approached with sacred awareness. [33:33 and 34:55]
  • The “tragedy” is forgetting the sacredness of these gifts.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "God is not out there, not in the clouds, not anywhere else, but within your own heart, and you can experience it."
  — Llewellyn [10:01]

• “God does not look at the outer form. He looks at the love within your love.”
  — Llewellyn [07:22]

• “It's called in Sufism, you dissolve. The ego dissolves like sugar in water.”
  — Llewellyn [15:38]

• “Sufis are known as the slaves of the one and the servants of the many. We are the slaves of God and the servants of humanity.”
  — Llewellyn [24:58]

• “To live a path of service… for the sake of your beloved, for the sake of love.”
  — Oprah & Llewellyn [25:25]

• “Since I learned that he longs for me, longing for him never leaves me for an instant.”
  — Oprah reading Llewellyn [08:32]

• "You want nothing more. Just to be in service for the rest of your life."
  — Oprah & Llewellyn [29:08]

• “If people knew how much love there is within themselves, within life. We are made of love.”
  — Llewellyn [36:46]

• “No one knows God but God. He is beyond even our idea of the beyond. But he is also my beloved.”
  — Llewellyn [40:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Oprah’s introduction & Sufism explained: 03:28–05:26
• The meaning of longing and love in Sufism: 07:21–10:55
• Crucifixion of the ego and humility: 14:04–15:38
• Service, oneness, and ecological consciousness: 11:44–13:39
• Stages of the spiritual journey: 21:03–23:45
• Transformation through pain and heartache: 27:20–28:51
• Nature of the soul and the mystical view of death: 40:14–41:54
• Living mysticism and contemporary relevance: 32:24–36:46

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Tone & Language

The conversation is warm, contemplative, and poetic—interspersed with humor and deeply personal reflections. Oprah’s curiosity draws out Llewellyn’s soulful, gentle wisdom, making complex mystical ideas feel accessible and intimate. The emphasis is always on practical, heartfelt experience over abstraction.

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In Summary

This episode illuminates Sufism not as an esoteric tradition, but as a living path of love, service, and unity that anyone—regardless of background—can embrace. Listeners are invited to question the role of ego, awaken to the deeper longing within, honor the sacredness of the world, and live in greater remembrance of the divine found in every moment and every being.

Transcript

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hey There podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations. It's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O', Neal, Reba McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a classic. Oprah's Masterclass Podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcasts.com oprahsmasterclass I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. I was first introduced to Sufi teacher Llewellyn Von Lee when I saw him in the film Wake Up. I was so intrigued by his words. I wanted to learn more about Llewellyn's own spiritual journey, so I invited him to join me in my backyard to talk about Sufism, the wisdom of the heart and the mysteries of life. Here we are sitting under the oaks, one of my favorite places on earth, with you, a Sufi teacher.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Life is really good.

[B]

It's wonderful to be here.

[A]

Llewelyn Von Lee, correct? That's correct.

[B]

It's a Welsh name.

[A]

So when I say that you. Is that how you define yourself as a Sufi teacher?

[B]

It's the simplest way.

[A]

It's the simplest way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, I wanted to share with everyone how I became interested in Sufism. A friend of mine, Elizabeth Lesser, who runs the Omega Institute, was sending me these beautiful sayings, pieces of literature, poetry every day from Hazrat Inyat Khan. Every day. It's called A Bowl of Sake. I know that that would come to me every day through email. And I started reading those, and they were really wonderful parables about life, expressions of love and beauty and God in such a way that I thought, hmm, this is very interesting. Where is this coming from? And found out that he was a Sufi leader and teacher and started asking about it. And when I started doing my research about Sufism, this is what I came across in one of the books. The Sufi movement is a group of people belonging to different religions who've not left their religions, but who've learned to understand them better. And their love is the love for God and humanity instead of a particular section of it.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

The principal work that the Sufi movement has to accomplish is to bring about a better understanding of the east and west and between the nations and races of the world. And the note that the Sufi message is striking at this time is the note which sounds the divinity of the human soul.

[B]

Yeah. That's beautiful.

[A]

The movement does not call man away from his belief or church. It calls him to live it. A movement intended by God to unite humanity in brotherhood and in wisdom. So is that an accurate description of what Sufism is?

[B]

It's one description of what Sufism. I would say, first of all, Sufism is about love is about love. It's about the heart. It's about this Extraordinary secret of human beings that within our heart, not our physical heart, but our spiritual heart, we have a direct connection to God. And we can experience that each directly within the heart through love. And so I would always like to take it back to love, take it back to the individual human being's relationship with God. I often say, Oprah, that there are so many different ways to go to God for all of humanity. People can choose different ways to God, but some people need to experience God through love.

[A]

And one of the things that you talk about in your Books is the 99 names for God. And that God, all that is God, responds to all 99 names.

[B]

The Sufis actually say, in the name of that which has no name, but who appears by whatever name you call him, God is everything. This is one of the basic experiences, not just of Sufism. At the core of every mystical path is the oneness. Everything is God. There is nothing other than God. We are all part of this great mysterious outpouring of love that we call creation. Everything in creation is an expression of this incredible love. Sometimes we can see it more visibly, like here in your beautiful garden. And sometimes it's in poverty and suffering. It's less visible. But then you think of people like Mother Teresa who saw the love there. I was often moved when somebody asked her, how can you take care of so many people? And she said, I only ever take care of the one. Because for her, everything was part of this one being, which is love. And maybe Sufism is about those who want to. Or Rumi, the great Sufi poet, he said, return to the root of the root of your own self.

[A]

Return to the root of the root

[B]

of your own self. It is like again when you said, God does not look at the outer form. He looks at the love within your love. And if you go into the core of your being, into the very center of yourself, what do you find there? Either love or longing for love. Look, you've met so many people. You've seen so many journeys take place. And isn't it at the core of every person there's a longing to be loved? Yes, a need for love.

[A]

I read this in your book, the Transformation of the Heart, and it just really stopped me cold. You know, sometimes a sentence just. I started to tear up when I read this line on page 38. By his own powers, no one can find the way that leads to him. Capital H. Whoever walks towards him walks with his foot until the beam of his love shines out to guide the soul. Now, this is the line that stopped Me, Cole. Since I learned that he longs for me, longing for him never leaves me for an instant.

[B]

That is so beautiful. That's really because it's true.

[A]

That is so beautiful.

[B]

He longs for us. And some people.

[A]

That which is God. That which is God.

[B]

That which is God. We call it the beloved philosophy. That love affair, it longs for us.

[A]

Don't you love that line? Since I learned he longs for me, longing for him never leaves me for an instant. And one of the things you also write here is that the Sufi aspires to remember God in every moment, with each and every breath.

[B]

We do, because he is our beloved. If you love somebody, you want to remember your beloved. For most people, this is a human experience. You fall in love, you see the image of your beloved wherever you go. You wait to hear your beloved on the telephone.

[A]

You just love to say their name.

[B]

You love to say their name. You want to tell your friends about them and all it is for us. God is the great beloved. And it is this incredibly intimate love affair. I mean, I tell you a secret, Oprah, is that in every outer relationship, in every human relationship, there is you. And the one you love, there is the other. Now, what happens if the one you love is actually inside your own heart? If it is so intimate, if it comes from within your own heart, if this love touches you from within your own heart, and it is through your

[A]

own heart, which is as close as your own breath.

[B]

There you go. Which is your own breath. That is actually Sufi saying.

[A]

Really?

[B]

That is a Sufi saying.

[A]

As close as your own breath.

[B]

Your own breath. Yes. He is closer to you than yourself, to yourself. It's this incredible intimacy. And this is part of. The Sufis are known as the people of the secret. Because since the beginning, they've carried this secret for humanity. That God is not out there, not in the clouds, not anywhere else, but within your own heart, and you can experience it. Look, you know how somebody.

[A]

Paul says in the Bible, Paul says that God is above, around, through and in us. Meaning God is in all things, in everything.

[B]

God is in everything.

[A]

Yes. And that is the premise of the Sufi is that everything is God.

[B]

Yes. Unity of being, the oneness of God. There is nothing other than God.

[A]

Well, you know, there's so many of us that grew up. When I grew up, God was in the sky. I know, with a beard and had a book taking names, kind of like Santa Claus checking it twice. And was watching everything that you were doing. And if you did something bad, you would be smited.

[B]

That is one image of God. But as a mystic, you don't want to stay with the image of God. You want to go to the truth. And again, for the Sufi, the truth has to do with love. I mean, God is love. It's a simple statement. It's like the Beatles song, all you need is love. It is so simple, but so true. My teacher used to say, mistake. Mystics teach simple things. But those simple things change people's lives. Because you are touched, because your heart is touched.

[A]

So would you say you're also a mystic?

[B]

I am primarily a mystic.

[A]

Primarily a mystic.

[B]

A mystic is somebody who wants to completely lose themselves in God.

[A]

Wants to lose themselves until there is

[B]

nothing left but that divine consciousness being oneness, however you call it.

[A]

So what would be the greatest thing you would want as a mystic for us to know that you want the world to understand at this moment in

[B]

time, which is a very extraordinary moment in time, particularly ecologically, that we are destroying this incredibly beautiful planet that we've been given to look after.

[A]

Because we're unconscious.

[B]

Because we're unconscious. Because we don't treat it properly. Because we've forgotten that everything is sacred. I would like people to remember that the world belongs to God, not to us, but to remember it belongs to God. If it belongs to God, then you treat it differently. You treat it sacred. Every leaf is sacred. Every tree is sacred. You know that. You feel it. It's echoed in this beautiful gardens here. And then there is this relationship between our heart, the inner secret of our heart, and the world around us. And then we can become guardians of this world as we're supposed to, because it's God's world. It doesn't belong to us. We're not the masters of the world. It's his beautiful expression, his beautiful creation. And there's this incredibly important moment when the astronauts first saw this world from outer space. And they saw it as one living being. And you have that image, it's like a primal image that belongs now to our culture, to the whole world's culture

[A]

as one living, thriving, pulsating being. Yes.

[B]

And all I would take it one step further and say it's not just a living being, It's a living spiritual being. Just like we are. We're not just a physical being, we're a spiritual being. We have a heart. We have a soul. And the world has a soul, too. And we are part of it. We are part of this incredible miracle that has a sacred core at its very center. Just like we have a. A sacred core. At our center, you can call it love, you can call it magic, comes from the soul and starts to heal the human being.

[A]

One of the things that you say in your book, that in order to get to know God or to come close to God, that the ego must be crucified. And you use the word crucified, which I think is an interesting.

[B]

It's a Christian teaching.

[A]

Yes, it's a Christian teaching. What does that mean? That in order to know God, the ego must be crucified.

[B]

The Sufi says, talk about dying before death. You die to the ego. For most people, the ego is the king.

[A]

Yes, right.

[B]

But some of us have glimpsed.

[A]

I think most people aren't even aware of their ego. I've attempted in my series with Eckhart Tolle. Do you know Eckhart?

[B]

I do, yes.

[A]

Eckhart tolle.

[B]

Wonderful work.

[A]

10 part series on the web, talking about the ego. And actually, I think for me and I think for millions of other people who downloaded that series, it was the first time that we had that kind of recognition of the ego as an entity.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Wow. Yes.

[A]

I think. And for a lot of people, the realization that, wow, you are separate from the ego, you don't have to be controlled by your mind and your identity with that.

[B]

There is something else. There is a divine part of you that there is a divine that can be guided by. You can connect with that, can. Can give you the help, the grace, the nourishment, the meaning that you need. It's the soul that gives us meaning in life.

[A]

So are you dead to your ego? Is your ego dead? Have you crucified it?

[B]

There comes a point on the path when the ego bows its head in surrender. It is no longer the king of the castle. You can't live without an ego otherwise. I've had experiences of having no ego. And then you are everything. You are every leaf, you are every cloud, you are every car, you are every sound.

[A]

Were you on drugs? No, I'm just asking.

[B]

Meditation.

[A]

It was a meditation.

[B]

It comes from meditation.

[A]

Because that sounds like somebody who had taken a very nice drug trip.

[B]

It's called in Sufism, you dissolve. The ego dissolves like sugar and water. You dissolve if the ego surrenders. Look, you are in service. I know you are in service. And what does it mean to be in service? It means you surrender to somebody else's will or whatever it is that asks you, that calls you to be in service.

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[B]

And I think sitting here with you

[A]

under these oaks has been a dream of mine. And I do feel that it is a calling to service.

[B]

How wonderful. Yes, and I feel exactly the same for me because I am very reclusive by nature. For me, mysticism is something that draws me deep within my own heart. I like to be alone. I like to meditate, I like to pray. And for me to come out and talk to you with the cameras. With the cameras.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know about the secret of the soul, about this calling in my own heart that is also a certain surrender, a certain service for me because maybe it has meaning, maybe it can touch other people. That there is this extraordinary something within the heart of all of each of us that is divine. The Sufis talk about the heart of hearts, this central part of our own being that belongs only to God.

[A]

Well, one of the things that I was so moved in transformation of the heart about is when you talk about the longing. Now, here's what I feel, and you all tell me if you feel this too, and you can tweet me or Facebook me and let me know. I feel that there is a deep longing on the part of our culture for something more, something greater, something higher, something deeper. And I think that the. The farther away we are removed from it, the farther away, the more things, the more technology, the more stuff, the more possessions, the further we're removed from that connection. But also the deeper the longing.

[B]

It's a hunger. It's not just a longing. It's a hunger for something that is real. Because all these things, all these material things, they don't satisfy our soul. They may give us a moment of pleasure. Do they bring us joy? No. And they don't nourish our soul. And there is this deep longing. In fact, one of my favorite definitions of Sufism was Sufism was at first heartache, only later it became something to write about. It's the call of the soul, the cry of the soul. It's something primal within each of us. We long for God. We long for truth. We long. We long for love. It doesn't matter how you call it. It's this longing. It's actually what is interesting, Oprah, is it's the feminine side of love.

[A]

Oh, the feminine side of love.

[B]

Because there is the masculine side of love. I love you. And then there is the feminine side of love. I am waiting for you.

[A]

I'm waiting.

[B]

I'm longing for you.

[A]

I'm longing for you.

[B]

And sadly, so much of our culture has not valued the feminine. Like, just to hold something, just. Just to hold a space. To hold a space in your heart for God. To wait. For God. Not to demand, not to ask, but to wait. That is actually part of prayer. To learn to wait within your heart, to listen, just to be present without wanting anything except your beloved.

[A]

Now, the Sufi says there are three. The journey from God, the journey to God, and the journey in God.

[B]

Correct. Yeah.

[A]

Where are you along the journey right now?

[B]

That's a very personal question. I would like to be in the journey in God. The journey from God is a journey of forgetfulness. People come into this world and they forget their divine nature. They become caught in the. What the Chinese say, the 10,000 things. All the things of life. The 10,000 things.

[A]

I would say the world is.

[B]

Yeah, the world is caught very sadly. And then There comes this moment in their life when something wakes them up. It's a very magical moment. I tell you a story. Once I was traveling to New York on an airplane. And I went to use the bathroom. And there was a line for the bathroom. And I saw that the stewardess at the back was reading a book about dreams that I happen to know. And I said, oh, it's an interesting book. I'm surprised you're interested in this book. Anyway, she started to tell me her story. And she said she'd just been to a workshop. And then she said, I suddenly discovered there's more to life than getting stuff. And I could see this light in her eyes. She'd woken up, she'd realized there was something within her. It wasn't just about material accumulation. And it was like this magical moment when something awakens within the heart of the human being.

[A]

Unfortunately for so many people I've interviewed lots of people for whom that happened when tragedy struck, right when a difficulty occurred, when cancer came. And a lot of people use that experience for their own awakening. But you believe that you don't have to go through a terrible time.

[B]

It is a gift.

[A]

It is a gift.

[B]

I think Eckhart Tolle had this moment of awakening. For him, it was a gift. It's always a gift by God, that moment, however it comes. Because I used to. When I was young, we used to row in the park in London. And you could rent these little boats, little paddle boats or canoes as kids, like for, you know, 25 cents for half an hour. And at the end of half an hour, there was a guy with a megaphone, and he'd say, number 25, your time is up. Come in, please. And it's like that. The beloved looks at the human being and says, hey, your time is up. It's time to start going home. The Sufis talk about the homesickness of the soul, the journey home. And something calls to you. There is this moment, and it's really whether you take respect and value that moment and then begin the journey to God. The journey to God.

[A]

And what does the Journey God feel like? One of my favorite Bible verses, I think it's acts, but I'm not sure. Is in God. I move and breathe and have my being.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

And sometimes when I'm meditating and the mantra isn't working for me, I will just say that as my mantra. And when I'm stressed or when I'm feeling challenged or in any difficulty, I will remind myself that. That in God, I move and breathe and have my being.

[B]

There is nothing other than God. And it can be an experience of oneness. You get taken into the oneness that is all around you, that is part of life. It can be an experience of love. You get drawn into this love. You begin to lose yourself in love. And suddenly there is no longer you. There is just love.

[A]

But if there's. Okay. So if you're lost in God, does it mean you're just lost in God? Do you actually.

[B]

Well, you live what God wants you to live. Without an eye to say, what about me?

[A]

That's a really good point. Because everything that I've read about Sufism, I'm thinking, it sounds wonderful. It's beautiful. How wonderful to breathe and know and love God in every moment. But then, are you just sitting around with Sufi clothes on, loving God?

[B]

It's a path of service.

[A]

It's a path of service.

[B]

Sufis are known as the slaves of the one and the servants of the many. We are the slaves of God and the servants of humanity. And Sufis are involved in humanity, whether as a doctor, a plumber, a painter, a therapist, wherever you are called by God to participate in life.

[A]

So you open yourself to service. However, your body, your heart, your soul can be used as a vehicle of service.

[B]

There you go, I got it. There you go, I got it. And you do it for the sake of your beloved, for the sake of love.

[A]

So is Sufism inclusive of all other religions? As I started out saying, does it mean. What I've read is that I can be Christian and also be Sufi?

[B]

I met a wonderful Franciscan monk the other day who said St. Francis was very influenced by Sufism. That was part of his calling. Sufism is about the love within your love. God does not look at the outer form. He looks at the love within your love. And you can be a Christian, you can be a Buddhist, you can be. It doesn't matter. That's the outer form you live in. In fact, I was brought up Christian, and I had a much deeper understanding of Christianity since learning about Sufism. I mean, and what matters is how you live your relationship to God, that secret inner calling within the heart.

[A]

So when you were a child, did you believe in God?

[B]

No, because when I was a child, I was brought up in a religion that was not really spiritual. It wasn't a calling. It was more a social obligation. My father loved church music, so we used to go to beautiful churches and listen to choirs. But direct experience of God didn't even exist. It wasn't on the table and then I had an experience when I was 16, and I just woke up, and suddenly I saw the world completely differently.

[A]

What was the experience?

[B]

It was actually reading a Zen koan. I was 16 and I read this Zen koan, which is, the wild geese do not intend to cast their reflection. The water has no mind to receive their image. These enigmatic Zen sayings. And it was like a key. It opened a door inside of me. And suddenly the world was full of light. Suddenly there was laughter, suddenly there was joy. Suddenly something else was present. And then I started to meditate and go deeper.

[A]

Is that when your spiritual journey began?

[B]

That's when my spiritual journey began, one day on the tube in London.

[A]

You talk in transformation of the heart about the journey to spirituality being painful. That it is. You talk as we talked earlier, about the crucifixion of the ego. And yours was very painful.

[B]

Yeah, very, very painful. Because when I came to my teacher and I was 19, I was so arrogant, you know, I'd meditated for a few years. I'd done hatha yoga, I'd had some experiences in meditation. And I really thought I knew something about it. And one has to learn humility. You have to learn patience. You have to learn that it isn't about you. And those are all painful lessons. You know, we don't learn them so easily. Human beings, we want it to be easy, but it isn't.

[A]

Because why must it be so painful?

[B]

Because the heart has to break. For the Sufi, the heart has to break open. Most people are so closed, they are so contracted. It's all about me, me, me.

[A]

Oh, I see. That's what you mean by the crucifixion of the ego.

[B]

Yeah. Then the heart breaks. And then he says, I am with those whose hearts are broken for my sake.

[A]

So by the crucifixion of the ego, you mean the heart has to break. You have to get taken out of the sense that everything is happening for you, that everything is about you.

[B]

There you go. That's right.

[A]

Yes. And so then you begin to live your life in alignment with the beloved, in alignment with God, asking God constantly, in a constant state of, how can I serve?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I would say when you are in alignment and you are in service to what God wants you to do, it's also the most exhilarating.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

The most stimulating.

[B]

It is really.

[A]

I'm going to cry.

[B]

And the most beautiful. You want nothing more.

[A]

You want nothing more.

[B]

Just to be in service for the rest of your life. Yeah, you do.

[A]

You talk in transformation of the heart, about spiritual responsibility. What does that mean?

[B]

I have a very strong feeling that this world at the moment is in a state of crisis.

[A]

I feel that too.

[B]

I know. I know. And it is a crisis.

[A]

And it's not about Wall Street. It is about Wall street, but it's

[B]

much, much deeper, Much deeper. And those of us who have been given access to their own light, who have had a glimpse of this divine spark within them, which is just really having a glimpse of God, however you call it, do you hold great hope

[A]

for the world right now?

[B]

Well, I tell you a secret. I'm a mystic. And as a mystic, you believe ultimately it is the grace of God because you know that everything you have been given has come from God. And I believe the world belongs to God. And there is this moment of crisis, and then you cry out to God. And part of my practice, and the practice I try to teach people is in your prayers. Remember the world to God. Feel it in your heart, this suffering world, and offer it to God. Because God is the greatest power. God is the greatest healer. God is the only real truth. And then maybe out of this world of forgetfulness there can become remembrance. And then the world can respond and something can be born again, like for many people.

[A]

And when you say God, what do you mean?

[B]

Well, I am Sufi, so for God, he is my beloved. He is my most intimate friend, my beloved. And as well as a tremendous, tremendous power. And sometimes I've had an experience of that incredible power that one can call God. Completely different to the power that people think, the worldly images of power. And at the same time, God is in everything. God is in every breath. We breathe nothing other than God. The Sufis say he is both intimate and also beyond. Even our idea of the beyond.

[A]

Is it true that Sufi Sufis look for God in the face of their brother and sister?

[B]

Wheresoever you turn, where is the face of God? Wheresoever you turn, you stand to see God in everything.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

can't wait to dos. It's a new workday. What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job? As technology is changing so quickly, is it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own, what would that take? What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate together. These are the questions we answer each week on Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler. Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube. We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together. Is the idea of oneness a part of the basis central.

[B]

Central to Sufism? We are all one. God is one. Everything is part of this living, breathing oneness that you can call God, you can call life. God is alive. And it is this oneness of which we are all a part. And you can experience it. You have two experiences of oneness. One is this intimate experience within the heart. You go within the heart and you dissolve into the oneness of God within the heart. It's very intimate. I think the nearest experience is when lovers meet physically and they get closer and closer. And then there is this moment of bliss in which you are no longer there. And except for mystics, it happens in a way much more magnificently. The whole of your heart opens and

[A]

you Just when does that happen?

[B]

When you're meditating, when the beloved wants to take you? It's really not up to you. It's up to the beloved. It's up to those moments. You are taken by God, to God, you are taken by love, to love, and then you are completely lost.

[A]

You know, it's hard for many people to embrace the idea of oneness when it feels like the country and the world is more fractured than ever.

[B]

And yet look at our understanding of the ecosystem. It is one ecosystem. We are all part of one world in a way that was inconceivable in my parents generation. And for me, the Internet is a very precious symbol of that. We've been given this tool of oneness. People in a cyber cafe in Tajikistan, somewhere in a room in Manhattan, they're all connected together, part of this world wide web of interrelationships that to me is oneness at work. Oneness is not an idea. Oneness is a life force. Oneness is the life force of the planet trying to break through these hierarchical structures that are killing it. And I have a passionate belief in oneness. Not just as a mystic. I know what oneness is like within the heart and within life, but as a practical tool. We have to live according to oneness.

[A]

You know, it's so fascinating that you're saying this to me because I often have. I've thought this, but haven't been able to articulate what you just said. As I'M watching myself and others on our BlackBerries and our iPads and ipods. And I think. And I also think about it every time I pick up the phone. I have a school in South Africa. You can hit 11 digits and suddenly you're speaking to Africa. Or you can hit FaceTime on your iPad and you're face to face with someone in another world. What is that?

[B]

This is life reconnecting itself according to oneness. It is the organic nature of life that needs us to participate.

[A]

Yes, but we call it technology. And in the name of technology, we lose what it really is.

[B]

That is, for me, the tragedy. We've lost its sacred nature. We don't realize that it's a gift given us, given to us to help us to wake up, to help us to realize we are one planet, we are one race, we are one lot of human beings. And we have to make this step in our evolution. Otherwise, I think the planet will die. And to me, being present in this world at this time requires a consciousness of oneness to help the world, to help each other, so we can redeem this world.

[A]

So could you define mysticism again? Tell us again, remind us what it is? Because. And I'm saying that because I know people are hearing, listening. And for a lot of people, that word carries a charge of the unknown.

[B]

It is.

[A]

And mystery.

[B]

It is. It is the greatest mystery that we are one with God, that we are one with each other, that we are not separate. The greatest illusion.

[A]

God. I move and breathe and have my being.

[B]

There you go. Feather on the breath of God. That's Hildegard von Bingen, a Christian mystic. She lived like a feather on the breath of God. Just take that image, see where it takes you.

[A]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's nice.

[B]

That's lived mysticism.

[A]

And she who said that?

[B]

Hildegard from Bingen. She was a great Christian mystic.

[A]

On the breath of God.

[B]

Yeah, there you go. Then your life is taken where it needs to go.

[A]

Yeah, that's nice.

[B]

That's lived mysticism, and it is about the mystery of the human being. Yes, it's frightening because it takes you into the unknown. It takes you into the unknown within yourself. It takes you to the unknown within life, just as any calling does. You can't control mysticism. It's not yours. You have to learn to bow down before God. But the rewards are tremendous. You know, there is so much love, Oprah. There is so much love. If people knew how much love there is within themselves, within life. We are made of love.

[A]

Why do you think there is such a growing interest in Sufism, in Western culture now?

[B]

I think there is a hunger for love. I think there is a hunger for something that is real, that has not been bought and sold in the marketplace. That is just true, that is pure. And this great poet, Rumi, he lived almost 800 years ago, a lover of me, and yet he has touched the hearts of so many people here in the west today. Why? Because he speaks about love. Not some idealized love, but a love that belongs to all of us and also belongs to God. And he touches the heart. And as you say, there is this. You said a while ago there is this hunger in our culture. A hunger, longing. Call it what you will, for what is real, for not the trinkets.

[A]

How does that hunger, do you think, manifest itself? How is it showing itself to us? Because there are people who are hungry. Because there are people. I feel it. I feel and sense. And it's the reason why I decided to step out, take the risk of starting a network, to share these ideas with people, to try to bring little pieces of light, to open them up, to let them see themselves differently. Because I feel that and feel that that's a part of my calling to do that.

[B]

It is your calling. Yes, it is your calling. You can touch people. You can touch many people. Yeah.

[A]

And that if I were to leave the planet, I would want to know when I leave the planet that I really did everything I could.

[B]

You feel this hunger. And you can touch many, many people. That's your gift. That's the gift you'd be given. It's also responsibility for you. Because you can't just walk away. You can't just live an easy life.

[A]

Right. As you said, I.

[B]

You could shut the doors, but your heart wouldn't be happy.

[A]

Yeah, my heart wouldn't be happy.

[B]

I wouldn't be happy.

[A]

So what is that? What is the face of hunger and yearning to you? What does it look like?

[B]

Well, there are two sides. One is, there is this longing. And people sometimes mistake it for depression. It isn't depression.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's depression. No, it's longing. You long for something. And people, sadly, because they don't know them, we've lost the understanding of longing. And so they project it. They want a new pair of shoes, they want a new boyfriend. They want something. They don't realize that that will not satisfy this hunger in the heart.

[A]

This is what people say all the time. I've done this over the years. You stand up and you ask people, what do they really Want. Everybody says, I just want to be happy.

[B]

I think they want to be loved. Underneath. I think everybody wants to be loved. And. And it's a hunger. It's a hunger. And particularly because we live in a soulless culture that doesn't nourish that, but it doesn't nourish our souls. There are these ways that we can meet our soul. We can look within ourselves. We can go to the source of this longing. This is this beautiful saying you said earlier, which I said in a different way when I quoted Rumi, who said, I never knew that God, too, desires us when he wants to. When he comes knocking on your door and say, it's time to go home.

[A]

Since I learned that he longs for me, longing for him never leaves me for an instant.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yes. What is the soul?

[B]

The soul is the divine part of our self. It is our divine nature. It is a part of us that is one with God. Everybody has a soul. It is the immortal, eternal part of ourselves. Never dies, never dies. It's immortal. It belongs to God.

[A]

Where are all the souls that have been a part of people's bodies? Where are those souls, all the souls that have been.

[B]

Some go back to God. Some come back again into this world.

[A]

What is your definition of God?

[B]

Well, he is my beloved. He is my most intimate beloved, my friend, the one I look to in everything. I wouldn't try to define him because no one knows God but God. He is beyond even our idea of the beyond. But he is also my beloved.

[A]

What do you think happens when you die?

[B]

You know, Oprah, there comes a time in meditation on the mystical path when you know you can't die. You go into meditation, you leave behind your ego, you leave behind your body, and you experience your eternal nature in full consciousness. That's why Sufis talk about to die before you die. Then you know you can't die. Then you know that this leaving this physical world, beautiful as it is, will be a transition to another world which is infinitely more beautiful. And so you know where you are going. It is not a mystery anymore. But you know you can't die. You. You know there is no such thing as death. Like the poet John Donne said, death, thou shalt die.

[A]

Have you experienced that? The death before the death? Yeah. What's it feel like?

[B]

Oh, incredible freedom. Incredible freedom. And there is so much love waiting for us. There are oceans of love. I talk about the farther shore of love. And part of my work is to help people to glimpse it, to take them there before they die physically so they can glimpse the truth of their divine nature. We are one with God. We are creatures of light. We are so beautiful and there is so much love waiting to be lived, to be experienced in this world. We forget. And maybe through the grace of God, before we die, we can begin to remember.

[A]

How do we reconnect to that? How do we remember?

[B]

We learn to listen to how the beloved, how God wants us to reconnect. Because we are each unique. It is said there are as many ways to God as there are human beings, as many as the breasts of the children of men. And for some people, it is through a life of service, like Mother Teresa. For other people who are drawn into more solitary meditation that is there. For some people, it is through music. For some people, it is through painting. There are so many different ways the beloved calls to us. But we have to listen and respect the voice of God within ourselves.

[A]

What do you know for sure?

[B]

That everything belongs to God. Everything is the great beloved. And we are part of it.

[A]

Hasn't this been a lovely talk?

[B]

Touched my heart.

[A]

Touched my heart.

[B]

It's really touched my heart. Oprah, thank you so much for sharing.

[A]

Thank you for coming.

[B]

God will.

[A]

So good. So good. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening, foreign. Howdy Ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan. Fellas, I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson. And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy. And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Stephen here has not read Mistborn before.

[B]

That's right. Hey.

[A]

Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter. And along the way, we'll do character

[B]

de dives, magic explainers, and Steven will

[A]

even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong. News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts. Summer smells like salt in the air and warm sand. Restore your sense of place with PUR's new summer fragrance collection. Discover transportive, clean [e-mail].