Elie Wiesel: Living with an Open Heart

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul – “Elie Wiesel: Living with an Open Heart”

Date: August 12, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Elie Wiesel

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Episode Overview

In this moving and profound conversation, Oprah Winfrey sits down with her longtime friend and Nobel Laureate, Elie Wiesel. The episode, titled “Living with an Open Heart,” delves into themes of memory, survival, the persistence of questions, the nature of suffering and resilience, and the power of love and friendship. Wiesel’s reflections are rooted in his personal journey—from his experience as a Holocaust survivor and chronicler to his near-death encounter with open heart surgery—and his belief in our capacity to create hope and meaning even in the face of darkness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Physical and Emotional Impact of Open Heart Surgery

• Oprah greets Elie as both a friend and a hero, opening with concern for his health after his recent surgery.
  • Elie shares about his lingering fatigue and the seriousness of his surgery:
    “Five arteries were blocked. Five. All the five arteries were blocked.” (08:19)
• The near-fatal health scare sparked deep soul-searching and led to his intimate book, Open Heart.
  • “When I fall asleep, it may well be forever. Am I afraid to die? In the past, whenever I thought of death, I was not frightened. Hadn't I lived with death, even in death?” (08:31)

Surviving Trauma, Living with Memory

• Elie recounts the enduring pain of losing his family in Auschwitz, particularly his youngest sister:
  • “The only time I cry is not when I speak about my parents, but I speak about my little sister there…that she makes me cry.” (03:30)
  • “Why the children? My God, why the children?…Do you know what they have done to humanity?” (04:20)
• On walking Auschwitz’s grounds with Oprah, Elie affirms that the souls of those lost remain present there.
• He describes the nature of fear and acceptance in extremis:
  • “It was acceptance.” (10:18)
  • “Any moment, I can die. All I wanted, really, is my father…My father, my father.” (10:25-10:27)

Wrestling with God, Evil, and Humanity

• Elie speaks candidly about the incomprehensibility of evil and the silence of God:
  • “For me, it is as impossible to accept Auschwitz with God as without God. But then how is one to understand his silence?” (05:34)
  • “I don't.” (05:54)
• He reflects on humanity’s seeming inability to learn from past atrocities—Auschwitz, Rwanda, Cambodia, Bosnia.
  • “Will the world ever learn?…No, it will not. Because it hasn't.” (06:49)
  • Yet, he holds hope for the individual:
    “At least the person, the individual will. The individual will…Every single human being is a unique human being.” (07:15; 07:28)
• Oprah reframes: “The better question…is will you?” (07:43)

The Intensified Value of Life and Love

• Recovery led to a deeper appreciation for loved ones:
  • “Did open heart surgery make you fall in love more deeply with life?”
  • “With the living, first of all? Of course…Much more, let's say, with Marion, my wife.” (14:15-14:24)
• He movingly describes the centrality of family, especially when near death:
  • “I wasn't ready. My life wasn't finished. I can, I couldn't accept.” (11:58)
• On the importance of cherishing every moment:
  • “Every moment was essential. When you are in the hospital, you cannot move without pain, cannot think without fear. But every moment counts.” (14:45)

Memory, Spirit, and the Question of Identity

• For Wiesel, memory—personal, communal, historical—outlasts the body:
  • “The body is not eternal, but the idea of the soul is. The brain will be buried, but memory will survive it.” (16:26)
  • “Memory is stronger than anything else. Strangely enough, memory has power.” (22:58)
  • On Alzheimer’s: “At the end, there is nothing but the covers.” (24:35)
• Even as questions persist, he finds meaning in the asking itself:
  • “I define myself more by my questions than by my answers, because answers come and go, but questions remain.” (25:49)
• When asked what happens after death, Wiesel returns to a child’s longing—will he see his parents again? (16:46)

Bearing Witness and Combating Indifference

• With the passing of Holocaust survivors, memory becomes collective:
  • “To listen to a witness is to become one.” (26:58 — Note: a central teaching from Wiesel)
• The most dangerous response to injustice and suffering is not hatred, but indifference:
  • “The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference…the opposite of beauty is not ugliness, but indifference.” (21:59)

Enduring Hope and Responsibility

• Despite all, Wiesel maintains faith in the human spirit:
  • “I still believe in man in spite of man.” (15:15)
• On the response to losing his life savings in the Madoff scandal:
  • “We have seen worse.” (29:05-30:00)
  • He’s uplifted by the generosity of ordinary people:
    “We began receiving hundreds and hundreds…of letters and donations…so uplifting.” (30:03)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

Timestamps are in (MM:SS) format

• On questioning the adequacy of his life’s work:
  “Every day I ask myself the same question. What have I done? Is it enough? Does it justify all that I wanted to accomplish and to do? I'm not sure of anything.” (02:56–03:10; Elie Wiesel)
• On the seduction of evil:
  “Why evil? Even worse, why the seduction of evil? What is there in evil that becomes so seductive to some people?” (05:16; Elie Wiesel)
• On the imperative of the individual’s evolution:
  “The individual will. Those who. That's what matters. Every single human being is a unique human being.” (07:15–07:28; Elie Wiesel)
• On being both curious and afraid of death:
  “Curious and afraid at the same time…What will happen? Will I die? And if I die, what will it be then?” (09:29-09:39; Elie Wiesel)
• On living every moment:
  “Every moment counts. Every second matters. Every gesture is essential to you.” (14:45; Elie Wiesel)
• On teaching:
  “Whatever you do in life, remember, think higher and feel deeper.” (20:18; Elie Wiesel)
• On indifference as humanity’s greatest failing:
  “The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, but indifference.” (21:59; Elie Wiesel)
• On memory as spirit:
  “Surely [life] is a sum of memories. But memory is more than the total sum…always with a capital M, almost.” (24:06; Elie Wiesel)
• On bearing witness:
  “To listen to a witness is to become one.” (26:58; Elie Wiesel)
• On the nature of friendship:
  “To me, friendship is like a religion. We couldn't live without it. Perhaps we could live for a while without love, but not without friendship.” (33:20; Elie Wiesel)
• Final message:
  “If there is one person on the planet who still is suffering from loneliness and from pain or despair and we don't know about it, or we don't want to know about it, and something is wrong with the world and…That's all I think we can do.” (33:54–34:22; Elie Wiesel)

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Important Segments (with Timestamps)

• Introduction & Bio (00:01–01:50)
• Elie’s Reflections on Surgery & Mortality (01:54–04:20)
• Memory and Loss – Sister & Auschwitz (03:30–04:56)
• The Existence of Evil & God’s Silence (05:12–06:36)
• Will Humanity Learn? (06:49–07:43)
• The Individual’s Power to Change (07:15–07:43)
• The Surgery Experience – Facing Death (08:09–09:57)
• Love, Family, and Coming Back to Life (11:06–14:45)
• Memory and Meaning (16:07–18:42)
• Witnessing and Preventing Forgetting (25:57–28:00)
• Responding to Loss (Madoff Scandal) (28:24–31:55)
• Core Lessons: Friendship, Service, and Hope (33:20–34:45)

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Tone & Language

The episode maintains Oprah’s signature warmth, reverence, and curiosity, matched by Elie Wiesel’s humility, clarity, and poetic depth. There is an ever-present sense of awe, vulnerability, and mutual respect.

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Takeaways for the Listener

• True humanity lies in remembrance, compassion, and the refusal to be indifferent.
• Bearing witness—both personal and collective—is a responsibility that sustains memory and counters evil.
• Life’s greatest offerings are found in love, friendship, and the courage to keep asking questions.
• “Think higher, feel deeper”—a guiding principle for living meaningfully and ethically.
• Even amidst suffering, “I still believe in man in spite of man.”

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For those who have not listened, this episode embodies the rarest kind of wisdom: hard-won, fiercely loving, and hope-filled in the face of seemingly insurmountable darkness. Elie Wiesel’s words linger long after the conversation ends.

Transcript

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

valuable gifts you can give yourself is

[Oprah Winfrey]

time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Friend is not a word I use loosely. I'm proud to call Elie Wiesel a friend for the past decade. He was born in 1928 in Szeget, Transylvania, now a part of Romania. One of four children, he had two older sisters, Hilda and Beatrice, and one younger named Zipporah. In 1944, Elie was 15 when the Nazis deported him and his family to Auschwitz. By the time the camps were liberated by the Allied troops less than a year later, his mother, father, and youngest sister had all perished. After the war, Elie embarked on a new life in Paris and became a journalist. It wasn't until he turned 30 that he decided to break his silence about his experiences during the war in a book called Night. Since its publication in 1958, Night has been translated into 30 languages, has been read by millions of people. In 2006, I chose it for my book club, and I had the privilege of visiting Auschwitz with Elie Wiesel as my guide. In 2011, Elie Wiesel was rushed into emergency open heart surgery. His long road to recovery required a great deal of soul searching, which resulted in this latest book, a powerful work of art that ruminates on questions of life and death that we all have and what it really means to.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

To be human. So may I say what an honor it is to have you here. My hero, my friend. After surviving open heart surgery last year, how are you feeling today?

[Elie Wiesel]

Much better.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Today? Today, much better.

[Elie Wiesel]

First, because I'm with you. You know how much. How close I am to you.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Do you still feel that your body was ravaged by the opening of your heart?

[Elie Wiesel]

It was because I get tired very quickly. I used to walk a lot, no problem. But now, if I walk even five minutes, I get tired.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Really? In 2006, you and I walked the grounds of Auschwitz together. Actually, on my 52nd birthday, that was.

[Elie Wiesel]

I remember that. What a gift I gave you.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Right? That was.

[Elie Wiesel]

It was a gift.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah. You had written 47 books at the time, and you said that you hadn't begun yet. Do you still feel that way now?

[Elie Wiesel]

Always.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I remember hearing that and thinking, always. Absolutely.

[Elie Wiesel]

Every day I ask myself the same question. What have I done? Is it enough? Does it justify all that I wanted to accomplish and to do? I'm not sure of anything wow.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I'm going to get to that, more of that in a moment. Because when I read this powerful little book, Open Heart, I couldn't believe that you were still questioning that. But when we were in Poland, I remember you said that the souls who perished at Auschwitz were still there, that they listened.

[Elie Wiesel]

You know, I have in my pocket the picture of my little sister, which I've never spoken about, not even with you. The only time I cry is not when I speak about my parents, but I speak about my little sister there. That she makes me cry.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

How old was she? Seven. She was seven when you went to the camp.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I remember walking the grounds with you and us standing there, the two of us standing there and looking at the way your sister had gone.

[Elie Wiesel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Why do you think it is speaking of her that still brings the tears? Because of a life unfulfilled, unlived. Why?

[Elie Wiesel]

Why the children? My God, why the children? You know that a million and a half children were killed then, like that, straight from the train? Do you know what they have done to humanity? How many among them could have grown up to become scientists, physicians, poets, scholars, friends of humanity, saviors of the world? What they have done to the world.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You've witnessed and written about the depths of both human cruelty and also of what we call human grace. How do you make sense of the two extremes, even now at 84,

[Elie Wiesel]

that everything is possible?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Everything is possible.

[Elie Wiesel]

Both evil, the power of evil, which on one level I cannot understand. Why evil? Even worse, why the seduction of evil? What is there in evil that becomes so seductive to some people?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You Write on page 66. Could it be that for God evil represents just another path leading to good? You say, for me, it is as impossible to accept Auschwitz with God as without God. But then how is one to understand his silence?

[Elie Wiesel]

I don't.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You don't still?

[Elie Wiesel]

I don't.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

God's silence and the world's silence.

[Elie Wiesel]

God's silence. At least God can say, who are you to understand me? Yes, but the world's silence is different.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I don't understand it to this day.

[Elie Wiesel]

To this day, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

It's so interesting, though, because you also write that if Auschwitz did not teach the world not to be racist, than what would? Rwanda didn't, Cambodia didn't, Bosnia didn't? Are we evolving as a species from racism and those kinds of atrocities?

[Elie Wiesel]

I spoke about that. I was invited a few years ago to address the General assembly of the United Nations. And I called my lecture, Will the World Ever learn?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Will the world ever learn?

[Elie Wiesel]

And I Answered actually, no, it will not. Because it hasn't. Otherwise, how is one to explain Rwanda? How is one to explain that racists are still on the planet? How is one to explain the violence? How is one to explain all that? Which means they haven't learned.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

So do you think we will ever learn? Do you think we will as a species?

[Elie Wiesel]

Species? I don't know. We are dealing with hundreds and thousands of years. But at least the person, the individual will. The individual will.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

The individual.

[Elie Wiesel]

Those who.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That's what matters.

[Elie Wiesel]

Every single human being is a unique human being. And therefore it's so criminal to do something to that human being because he or she represents humanity. But let they change at least.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. Yeah. As you're speaking, I was thinking the better question is not will we as a species evolve? The better question for everybody watching is will you?

[Elie Wiesel]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Is will you?

[Elie Wiesel]

That's exactly it.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. Wow. Open heart surgery. How did that act, that physical act. Change. Change you?

[Elie Wiesel]

First of all, I wasn't so sure I will make it.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

Another three hours, I don't think I would have been here.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Really?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Was that serious?

[Elie Wiesel]

That serious. Five arteries were blocked. Five. All the five arteries were blocked.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Wow. Wow. I love. I'm going to read from page 21. Page 21 here where you say, suddenly I realize that I'm in the hands of the surgeon and must face the truth. When I fall asleep, it may well be forever. Am I afraid to die? In the past, whenever I thought of death, I was not frightened. Hadn't I lived with death, even in death? I love. Then sentence. Hadn't I lived with death, even in death? Because that's what Auschwitz was. That was my biggest realization. I remember standing there on the snowy grounds and thinking, this was a death machine. It was a factory that produced death. Like death was a business. Death was a business. So you had lived in death.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Why should I be afraid now? Were you afraid?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes. Curious and afraid at the same time?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Curious.

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That means what is curious about what would happen next? What the transition would be?

[Elie Wiesel]

What will happen? Will I die? And if I die, what will it be then? All that I have read about death and studied.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

But you must have thought about it. But not. Not in that way. Not in that way. Not until you're faced with possibly this is the moment.

[Elie Wiesel]

Never come so close.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

So close.

[Elie Wiesel]

Except during the war.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah.

[Elie Wiesel]

In Auschwitz, every day I was like that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah. But when you're living with that kind of. Living in that kind of constant state of fear, I wonder. We've talked about this Before. Does a part of you go numb to it? You have to go. Does a part of you go numb to it? In the death camp?

[Elie Wiesel]

You mean then? No, then. It was acceptance.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

It was accepting that at any moment, I can die.

[Elie Wiesel]

Any moment.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I can die Any moment.

[Elie Wiesel]

Any moment. All I wanted, really, is my father, for me, was my father. My father, my father.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

And the two of you arguing over who should have the piece of bread.

[Elie Wiesel]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

He wanted you to have it.

[Elie Wiesel]

And I wanted mine. Trying to convince each other that I'm not hungry. I'm not hungry.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That makes me. Every time I see that story or read that story, that makes me want to cry. Because both of you are starving. And each saying, I'm not hungry, you take it. So let's get back to the hospital bed. You're lying there in the hospital bed, and you suddenly realize that it's a different kind of fear than when you were in the death camps.

[Elie Wiesel]

Especially since, in the meantime, they had called already. Mary and my wife and my son. And I saw them, and I realized, ah, that is more serious than I thought. Yes, they called them. That means it's very serious. And in truth, I was not sure that I would see them again. Wow.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

And that realization did what to you?

[Elie Wiesel]

Oh, I had tears in my eyes, as I have now, after all, True, I was 82, but I still had so many things to tell them and so many things to do, so many words to write, so many books to read, so many people to see, so many friends to embrace. I still have. I wasn't ready.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You weren't ready.

[Elie Wiesel]

I wasn't ready. My life wasn't finished. I can. I couldn't accept.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Well, you say on page 34, many texts describe the beyond. Few take place in paradise. Most unfold in hell. Am I, in fact, already on the other side? If not, would I have been permitted a glimpse into the beyond? I'm lying on my hospital bed, but it is hell. My skin is ripping apart. My entire body is aflame. I see myself in hell, ruled by cruel, pitiless angels, my head filled with medieval descriptions of unimaginable punishments. I think I know. I do know what takes place in these dreadful abysses. Now, I read this, and I think, if Elie Wiesel ends up in Hell, then I don't have a chance.

[Elie Wiesel]

I gotta say, you never know why one is in hell.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Oh, my goodness. This thing you were describing, lying on the hospital bed, skin ripping apart, body of flame, see myself in hell. What was that? Was that your imagination? Were you having an out of body, experience. What was that?

[Elie Wiesel]

Imagination. But based on knowledge.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Based upon knowledge.

[Elie Wiesel]

Because I have read these texts earlier, years earlier, I've read them, so they came back to me. And because they came back while I was lying there, I thought, well, maybe that's it. I only had ideas about death.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Images from death, you say on page 61. What does being resuscitated mean if not rediscovering one's future?

[Elie Wiesel]

True. All of a sudden. Sure. Oh, I write about my grandchildren there, for instance.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Of course. So I loved when you awakened and your grandson said, grandpa, if I. I see you're in pain. If I loved you more, would you have less pain?

[Elie Wiesel]

I know he said that you have great pain, but you know that I have great love for you. Tell me, if I love you more, do you have less pain? Oh, extraordinary. Yeah, it's extraordinary.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Extraordinary, yeah. Did open heart surgery make you fall in love more deeply with life?

[Elie Wiesel]

With the living, first of all? Of course. Much more, let's say, with Marion, my wife. We have been married for so many decades.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah. I was just going to say, in many ways, I think this book is like a love poem written for Marian and also and for my grandchildren. For your son and grandchildren.

[Elie Wiesel]

Oh, absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

It's a love poem for Marian and your grandchildren.

[Elie Wiesel]

You are absolutely right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. That's what it feels.

[Elie Wiesel]

It's a love song.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

It's a love song, yeah. So you came back loving them more intensely.

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes. Because every moment, every moment was essential. When you are in the hospital, you cannot move without pain, cannot think without fear. But every moment counts. Every second matters. Every gesture is essential to you.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

But you knew that.

[Elie Wiesel]

But I never felt it.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You never felt it? You knew it?

[Elie Wiesel]

Theoretically, I knew it, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Theoretically, you knew it.

[Elie Wiesel]

Oh, I knew all the ideas I had.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah. Yeah. So let me read from page 72. I belong to a generation that has often felt abandoned by God and betrayed by mankind. And yet I believe that we must not give up on either. We must choose between the violence of adults and the smiles of children, between the ugliness of hate and the will to oppose it. Between inflicting suffering and humiliation on our fellow man and offering him the solidarity and hope he deserves. Or not. I know, I speak from experience, that even in darkness it is possible to create light and encourage compassion. There it is. I still believe in man in spite of man. That is so beautiful.

[Elie Wiesel]

You read so beautifully.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

No, you write so beautifully.

[Elie Wiesel]

Really?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Oh, my goodness. That is so beautiful.

[Elie Wiesel]

You probably have known one another for so many years. Finally you Discover that I write beautifully.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Oh, then you say illness may diminish me, but it will not destroy me. The body is not eternal, but the idea of the soul is. The brain will be buried, but memory will survive it. What do you think now happens, now that you've had all this time to think about it? What do you now think happens when we die?

[Elie Wiesel]

Look, somehow I really become a child. I always. Childhood, for me, is a theme in all my work. They become a child. Will I meet my parents again? I want to know that. Will I meet them again?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Did you see your father when you were on that hospital bed?

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You saw him? Saw him? As in coming to visit you?

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely I saw my father.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Did you see your sister?

[Elie Wiesel]

My little sister. I cannot talk about her because I start crying. But my father. I saw. Actually, I saw him. My father and I were so close, and because of the way he died, that he had never left me. On different level, totally different level. When I got the Nobel Prize. Huge ceremony, of course, once in a lifetime. And you are at the center of the world. The whole world looks and I remember it was great. I had my son with me, Alicia, Marion with me. My oldest sister was there. Then came my turn. And all of a sudden I looked up and I saw my father in the hall.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

When you were getting the Nobel Prize, I couldn't speak.

[Elie Wiesel]

I couldn't open my mouth. It took me, I think, one or two or three long, endless minutes for me to start talking. I couldn't talk. So therefore, again, on the hospital bed, it again I saw my father.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Did he speak?

[Elie Wiesel]

No, he was just there, looking.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

When you saw your father, did you think, maybe I've gone to the other side?

[Elie Wiesel]

Exactly.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I would think so.

[Elie Wiesel]

Maybe. Maybe. No, I said so. I said maybe. He came to take me. Not only he, but all those who left before me there. I thought about my mother and my little sister. Maybe they came to take me with them. So I was very close. And in the hospital bed, it was almost reassuring. I will not be alone. They are there with me. And that is the danger. Usually, I think, in being so sick. Danger that you feel. It's so good being with the dead. Why not join them? It will be a liberation.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Well, yes. I've heard people speak of going to the other side and feeling that it's so comfortable and welcoming there, that they don't want to come back.

[Elie Wiesel]

What for?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah, really. But you did. Because you had more loving to do.

[Elie Wiesel]

I had more and more things to

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

do, more things to do.

[Elie Wiesel]

You know, I always have that feeling that I haven't even begun.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

One of the things that I know you love as much as I do is teaching. Because at your heart, that's who you are, a teacher.

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

What do you think is, if you had to summarize the greatest offering that you've been able to give your students, what would that be?

[Elie Wiesel]

You know, sometimes they ask me, what should we take away from your classes? And a few times I came up with a formula which I'm not sure is always good. But I said simply, look, whatever you do in life, remember, think higher and feel deeper. It cannot be bad it. If you do that, think higher. Always think higher. And feel deeper.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

And feel deeper.

[Elie Wiesel]

Life is not a feast. Life is an open hand waiting for some other hand to enter it.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

Into friendship.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

Ultimately, the answers are so simple. Not simplistic, but so simple. It's so simple. Simple to do something with our life, but do it

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

so that's that will be with me for the rest of my life. Think higher, feel deeper. That will be with me for the rest of my life. And I know so many of you two really got that on the level that you've offered it. One of the other great lessons I felt in Inside Myself when we were together at Auschwitz is how passiveness and indifference is actually worse than hatred.

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Can you speak to that for a moment? How being passive and indifferent is actually worse than.

[Elie Wiesel]

I have dedicated my life not only to fight evil, it's too difficult, but to fight indifference.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Indifference.

[Elie Wiesel]

I came out with some formula. I began saying that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. The opposite of knowledge is not ignorance, but indifference.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Indifference.

[Elie Wiesel]

The opposite of beauty is not ugliness, but indifference to beauty and to ugliness. Indifference enables everything which is bad in life and therefore fight indifference. The idea that the victim should say that nobody cares, that hurts me because we had that feeling. Nobody cares.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. And I'm sure that every victim of war feels the same. When you read the stories of Rwandans, True?

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

True.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

800,000 people in 100 days. Like that, like that, like that. Nobody cared. But the memory, as you write so beautifully in Open Heart, that what remains when the brain is buried, when all is gone, is that the memory.

[Elie Wiesel]

Absolutely. The memory is stronger than anything else. Strangely enough, memory has power. And ultimately, at the end, what remains? The memory of a prayer, if not a prayer, the memory of a friendly smile, if it's not friendly, but something. That memory, we work for that memory in some way.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

When I was reading Reading? Yeah. Your beautiful words. I've now discovered you're such a beautiful writer. When I was reading Open Heart, I was thinking, in some ways, the way you describe it, memory feels like spirit. It feels like the spirit of the person.

[Elie Wiesel]

It is.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. It is the spirit of the person.

[Elie Wiesel]

But the memory combines many things.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

Sadness and joy, hope and despair. And ultimately, I think, what is life? Surely it is a sum of memories. But memory is more than the total sum. It's more than one plus one plus one.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

There is something about memory which is always with a capital M, almost.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That is why Alzheimer's is such a devastating disease. And why, lying on the hospital bed, the thing you were most worried about is your mind. Is your mind.

[Elie Wiesel]

Three years ago, I published a novel, the saddest novel I have written, called the Forgotten. It's about Alzheimer's. And I compared the Alzheimer patient to a book. Every day, you tear out a page.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

And another page and another page. At the end, there is nothing but the covers.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

That's the Alzheimer's patient.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

And I was also wondering, then, what happens if a whole period is forgotten? If the whole world would have Alzheimer's?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Then who are you?

[Elie Wiesel]

Who are we?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Then who are you?

[Elie Wiesel]

That is what you asked.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That question on the lying in the hospital bed. Who am I? And what was the answer?

[Elie Wiesel]

I don't know yet. That's exactly it, really. Only the last moment, I think, really, with the last breath, the last question would be, and who am I? And then, if I have the answer, I wouldn't even know how to transmit it, because God alone will know the answer.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I thought it was so stunning as I was reading this, and all of the producers around here, all of us, when we got together, first of all, Elie Wiesel, that you on the hospital bed number one, would sense fear and would also have those questions still about your life.

[Elie Wiesel]

I define myself more by my questions than by my answers, because answers come and go, but questions remain.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Mm. You've said that Holocaust survivors are becoming an endangered species. Indeed, you all are. Yet you don't fear the memory of the Holocaust will ever be lost?

[Elie Wiesel]

Why?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Why?

[Elie Wiesel]

I'll tell you why. Because, you know, all of us who went through that experience consider ourselves as witnesses. When the last witness will be gone, I don't want to be that one. Too tragic. What will happen? On one hand, you could become pessimistic. With the last witness, all the knowledge, all the experience, all the memories will be buried. Then what? So I came up with a theory which I think is valid. To listen to a witness is to become one.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

To listen to a witness is to become a witness.

[Elie Wiesel]

So therefore, those who have listened to us, who read my books and other survivors memoirs, we have a lot of witnesses, and they will protect not only our past, but also their future.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You know, there's a picture of us that was taken at Auschwitz, where we're. I think we're facing one of the graves. Remember that picture? We were, and I remember for days and days and weeks and weeks afterwards, and even still now, feeling like I bore witness to something that.

[Elie Wiesel]

Well, you are absolutely.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes. I was able to bear witness in a way that we could then allow the world to see and experience people that hadn't seen or known in that way before.

[Elie Wiesel]

Therefore, I believe that that event with the capital E was of such grandeur, of such magnitude, of such depth, that it would not be forgotten. It will haunt our society and many generations to come with its fear, with its trembling, but also with its impossible hope.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I have to ask you this because we spoke a couple of years ago, and you had just been through a stunning experience, experience of all the stunning things that had happened to you. But when you got the call that you had lost your entire life savings, as well as $15 million of the foundation that you and Marianne had worked your whole lives for because of Bernie Madoff, what was the first thing you did? I mean, I just. That's an unbelievable call to get.

[Elie Wiesel]

I remember we were out and we came home and it was almost near midnight. The telephone rang and we were frightened. Midnight.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Midnight.

[Elie Wiesel]

It was Alicia. Alicia said, first of all, don't worry. Everybody is good in the family. Nothing happened. Nothing. But now. Sit down.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Sit down. This is your son.

[Elie Wiesel]

My son and our son. He was a member then. He was a member of our Bosch. And he actually didn't like the idea that we had placed so much money with Madoff.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Because you'd placed all the money with Madoff?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes. He said too much. And so that was a few months earlier, before that. And we told him, come on, we know people who did that. We can't even give. I told you the names. You'll be surprised. The most prestigious names in the financial world have given him the money. Why shouldn't we? He said, he's in jail. We looked at each other and really our reaction was, we have seen worse.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You and Mary?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes, both she and I have seen worse.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yes.

[Elie Wiesel]

You've lived through death camps. It has touched us, but not deeply, really. So it's true. We lost everything but for the foundation, something very beautiful happened. All of a sudden, we began receiving hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of letters and donations, small donations from all over America, Jews and non Jews, young and younger, pocket monies, Christmas money, Hanukkah money that was so. So uplifting. The American people are so generous. We are a generous people. No other nation has given so much to charity, to philanthropy.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

As the American people, we rise up in a crisis, we do automatically. Yes, we do.

[Elie Wiesel]

So we received hundreds of them every week, and that helped us.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

But you didn't have to change the way you lived because there were people who had given him money and lost their homes. So you didn't lose.

[Elie Wiesel]

We did not. Yeah, but look, we. We had to change our lifestyle right away, immediately, really. But not. Not much lateral. Look, I teach. I have a good salary, and I give lectures and I. And I write books. So it didn't change our life anyway. It didn't make me more pessimistic, it didn't make me more desperate and even not more skeptical about the otherness of the other.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

The otherness of the other?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Meaning other people.

[Elie Wiesel]

Meaning paid off.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah.

[Elie Wiesel]

There was some otherness in him, of course, which I don't want to accept as part of human nature. That he could do that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

He could do that.

[Elie Wiesel]

He could do that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

You say at the end of the book, open heart. It might seem that I am not the man I was before June 16, 2011. But on a level close to the absolutes that are life and death, I have remained the same. What is different is that I now know that every moment is a new beginning, every handshake a promise. I know that every quest implicates the other, just as every word can become prayer. If life is not a celebration, why remember it? If life, mine or that of my fellow man, is not an offering to the other, what are we doing on this earth? That's just the most beautiful.

[Elie Wiesel]

True, true. It is true what I said at that moment.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Ultimately, I mean, I see that too. I see this show, I see this network as an offering. I see. That's why I said, ask the question, what is the offering you've given to your students? I see that our role in humanity as each individual is to give an offering to each other.

[Elie Wiesel]

It's also to create a world with friends, friendship. To me, friendship is like a religion. We couldn't live without it. Perhaps we could live for a while without love, but not without friendship.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

We could not. Because isn't friendship a form of love?

[Elie Wiesel]

Yes, but a different kind, different kind.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Yeah.

[Elie Wiesel]

Love is demanding in the best sense of the word. Friendship is not.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

What is it you most want the world to know?

[Elie Wiesel]

That if there is one person on the planet who still is suffering from loneliness and from pain or despair and we don't know about it, or we don't want to know about it, and something is wrong with the world and

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

each of us, through our wanting to know and wanting the other person, whomever that is, to not to feel alone.

[Elie Wiesel]

That's exactly it. I cannot cure everybody. I cannot help everybody. But to tell the lonely person that I am not far or different from that lonely person that I am with him or her, that's all I think we can do.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

And we should do, therefore, that's the great spiritual path.

[Elie Wiesel]

It is.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

I love you, Elie Wiesel.

[Elie Wiesel]

I love you.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

No, I love you more.

[Elie Wiesel]

Okay, let's go on a little. Okay. Okay.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

That's beautiful. Thank you. This is a love poem. And that was interview. Was a pretty sure. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Rate and review this podcast.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah Winfrey or host)]

Thank you for listening.