Rodger Kamenetz: The Hidden Path to the Soul

Summary

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Oprah's Super Soul: Rodger Kamenetz – The Hidden Path to the Soul

Episode Date: July 22, 2026

Episode Overview

In this captivating episode of Super Soul Conversations, Oprah interviews Rodger Kamenetz, acclaimed author and certified dream therapist, about his book The History of Last Night’s Dream: Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul. Together, they explore the transformative power of dreams—not as puzzles to interpret, but as sacred inner journeys offering guidance, healing, and profound self-connection. Through vivid anecdotes and practical advice, the conversation centers on how dreams can illuminate our deepest predicaments, help us rediscover the “child” within, and lead us toward soulful integration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Transformative Role of Dreams

• Dreams as a “Second Life”: Oprah opens by posing the question: “What if I told you that in your life, in this one lifetime, you have the opportunity, the privilege really, to be alive twice? ... It’s your dream world.” (02:52)
• Dreams as Gifts: Kamenetz sees dreams not as random or meaningless, but as gifts that help us face life’s predicaments and provide a “map of the inner life.”
  • “We’re given these dreams to help us out of the predicament that we’re in in life. ... with these characters dramatizing what’s actually happening below the surface.” (03:57)

Moving Beyond Dream Interpretation

• Dream Work vs. Interpretation:
  • Kamenetz advocates for “dream work,” an experiential approach emphasizing feeling and personal truth over universal symbols.
  • “If we commit to begin to unlearn ... dream interpretation ... and we’re willing to commit to the dream work, that there will be a path ... to our truest, deeper selves.” (03:22 – Oprah)
• Every Dream is a Gift:
  • “I believe every dream is a gift.” (05:15) – Kamenetz
  • Even ‘negative’ or ‘disturbing’ dreams offer wisdom and healing, if approached with openness.

Remembering and Valuing Dreams

• Challenges in Recall: “It’s hard to remember our dreams because the brain changes so much when we wake ... it’s very easy to forget the dreams. ... But to me, it’s about valuing our dreams.” (05:25)
• Tips to Remember Dreams:
  • Write dreams down immediately upon waking (34:18).
  • Share them with others or in a journal to enhance memory retention.

Personal Dream Experiences

• The Visitation Dream: Kamenetz recounts a powerful posthumous visit from his mother:
  • [Memorable Moment] “She said, all these three things seem to be separate events, but they’re actually connected like a single wave through water.” (06:48)
• Oprah’s Flying Dream: Oprah shares a recurring dream—flying above trees with children asking, “What are you here to teach me?”
  • This question becomes a guiding principle in her waking life: “After that dream, I started to look at every experience that I had ... and I would say inside myself, hmm, what is this here to teach me?” (11:45)

The Symbolism of Children & the Soul

• Children as Soul Symbols:
  • “Children in dreams represent parts [of yourself], ... the spontaneity, the energy ... They’re still showing up. And that’s what that means to me.” (14:04)
  • Kamenetz notes both a ‘boy’ and ‘girl’ presence in his own dreams, emphasizing these are not literal, but soulful archetypes of innocence and primal connection.

Embracing Fear and Primal Feelings

• Facing Difficult Emotions:
  • “The fearful images themselves that appear in your dreams are inviting you to face into your fear and then discover underneath what it is that’s causing that fear.” (18:49)
  • Dreams reflect and help process feelings like inadequacy, guilt, loss, and separation—sometimes through painful but ultimately healing imagery.

Moving Through Anxiety and Recurrent Dreams

• Common Dreams as Clues:
  • Oprah and Kamenetz discuss recurring anxiety dreams (like being unprepared), with Kamenetz suggesting that the hidden feeling beneath is often a sense of inadequacy or separation from source/the Divine (24:29, 27:26).
• Recurrent themes are opportunities, not problems. “If you’re having the same dream over and over and over again, is that because that dream is trying to tell you something or teach you something?” (37:55)

The “Opposition” in Dreams

• The Role of Antagonists or Inhibitors:
  • “It can be obligation, duty. ... the opposition appeared as the man in the business suit. ... he was losing his soul, literally leaving her behind on the beach.” (33:05)
  • The “opposition” may signify what takes us away from soul connection.

Practical Dream Work Advice

• Steps for Listeners:
  • Write dreams down as soon as possible (34:18).
  • Focus on images and associated feelings—ask, “What am I feeling at each point?”
  • Relate those feelings to waking life parallels (34:49).
  • Ask of every experience (dream or waking): “What are you here to teach me?” (35:21)

Notable Quotes

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:57 | Kamenetz | “We’re given these dreams to help us out of the predicament that we’re in in life.” | | 05:15 | Kamenetz | “I believe every dream is a gift.” | | 06:48 | Kamenetz (Mother in dream) | “All these three things seem to be separate events, but they’re actually connected like a single wave through water.” | | 11:45 | Oprah | “What are you here to teach me? ... That became the central question for my life.” | | 14:31 | Kamenetz | “Most interpretation comes from a fearful place.” | | 16:49 | Oprah | “If I see an image or something ... I will fully take it in ... so that it doesn’t have to show up to make me feel it later.” | | 18:49 | Kamenetz | “The fearful images themselves that appear in your dreams are inviting you to face into your fear.” | | 27:26 | Kamenetz | “At the soul level, we feel inadequate in relation to the Divine.” | | 35:21 | Oprah / Kamenetz | “What are you here to teach me?” ... “It’s a question that comes from the soul if asked at a deep enough level.” | | 43:34 | Kamenetz | “Let’s leave one area where we don’t control, and that’s our dreams.” |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• The premise: Dreams as a “second life”: 02:52-03:42
• Dreams as gifts and maps for the soul: 03:57-04:42
• How to value and remember dreams: 05:25-05:56; 34:18-34:49
• Oprah’s flying dream & its lifelong impact: 10:38-12:13
• Children and the meaning of soul in dreams: 14:02-14:31, 30:09–30:19
• Feeling versus interpretation in dreams: 14:31-15:42
• On facing difficult or fearful dreams: 18:49-20:54
• Anxiety dreams and feelings of inadequacy: 23:49-27:26
• Opposition as obstacles to soul connection: 33:05-33:49
• Practical dream work steps: 34:18-35:04
• The central question—What are you here to teach me?: 35:25-35:43, 43:09-43:34
• Leaving dreams unmanipulated, embracing natural process: 43:31-43:45

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Memorable Moments

• Kamenetz’s mother dream and the wave metaphor: A deeply moving visitation and life lesson on the unity of experience (06:48).
• Oprah’s flying dream: “All those children represented the world and also represented the rainbow inside myself.” (10:55)
• The “big daddy” dream with Walter Cronkite: A humorous yet vulnerable look at performance anxiety and self-worth (24:23).
• The concept of dreams as sacred, not to be controlled: “Let’s not try to interfere with them. We control everything in our lives. Let’s leave one area where we don’t control, and that’s our dreams.” (43:34)

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Practical Takeaways for Dreamers

• Write dreams down immediately and focus on images and feelings.
• Ask “What are you here to teach me?” of all your experiences.
• Recognize that opposition and fear in dreams offer gateways to deeper healing.
• See recurring dreams not as annoyances, but as ongoing invitations to growth.
• Resist the urge to “control” or direct dreams—allow them to unfold naturally.

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This conversation blends deep spiritual wisdom with everyday accessibility, empowering listeners to regard their dream life as a vital, natural ally in the adventure of self-discovery. Kamenetz and Oprah urge us to treat every dream as a gift—a unique message from the soul—offering the possibility of insight, emotional release, and profound connection.

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Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

hey there podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations. It's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O', Neal, Reba McEntire, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class. Oprah's Masterclass Podcast is available now on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcasts.com Oprah's Masterclass I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. What if I told you that in your life, in this one lifetime, you have the opportunity, the privilege really, to be alive twice? What would your answer be? I know that a lot of you are thinking, this time I've really gone off the deep end. But what if I told you that that is absolutely true, that I really gained a second life in this one? Well, it's a new world that comes alive every night when you fall into REM sleep. It's your dream world. And according to my guest who's joining us today, it is likely a far more transformative experience than you have ever considered your dreams to be. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about dream interpretation. Quite the contrary. I'm talking about dream work. Author and certified dream therapist Roger Kamenetz suggests that if we commit to begin to unlearn. Isn't that what you're saying?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Unlearn dream interpretation. And that we're willing to commit to the dream work, that there will be a path that will begin to be illuminated, that can lead us to our truest, deeper selves, our predicaments in life and deeper, the situation of our soul. It's an inside world that can change your world from the inside out. So I just love that. Hi, Roger.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Hi, Oprah. How are you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love the title, the History of. Of Last Night's Dream, Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul. It reads kind of like a dream. So what do you think the dreams say about all of us?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I think dreams, each individual person, each individual soul is so different. And so we're given these dreams to help us out of the predicament that we're in in life.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And it's like a whole map of the inner life and with these characters dramatizing what's actually happening below the surface. That often we're not aware of what pushes us, what drives us, what stresses us. The answer to all that is in our dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I love when you say that we're given our dreams to help us through predicaments in life. And one of the things that you say in the book, you list three gifts of the dream to discover your pain or are you blocked, stuck or lost? Is what you ask to see your soul, the situation of your soul and to explore its realm?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That's what dreams are for.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes. And we all have this tremendous resource. I mean, the whole world is dreaming every night. And what's happening to those dreams? A lot of them are being left by the wayside. We're missing these gifts that can really.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is every dream a gift or is it sometimes just release? I mean, when I was looking at the three categories, I was trying to place my dreams in the three category. Sometimes. Is it just, ah, your unconscious mind just sort of relaxing with itself? Or is every dream A gift.

[Roger Kamenetz]

I believe every dream is a gift.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so what about all the people out there now who are listening? That one person who's saying, but I don't even remember my dreams.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. It's true. It's hard to remember our dreams because the brain changes so much when we wake that we snap into a waking consciousness. And it's very easy to forget the dreams. But to me, it's about valuing our dreams. And as we come to value them, as they become episodes in this inner exploration, boy, do we remember them. And in general, if we don't make an effort to tell our dreams, or if we have no one to tell them to, or if we have no one to share them with, or we don't write them down in a notebook, we're going to be more likely just to forget them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And then they kind of move away from us. But when we need them, and this happens in moments of crisis, a lot of people tell me, and it happened to me, too, that when someone dies in your life and that person appears in a dream, and there's so much mixture of pain, regret, and also joy to see the person again, I think that that kind of dream demonstrates how powerful dreams are, how important they can

[Oprah Winfrey]

be in our lives, how comforting they are sometimes to people when they see their loved ones who's gone on come to them so vividly in a dream, and they feel like they were really there.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And they were really there.

[Roger Kamenetz]

They are. And it's hard to believe. My mother died when she was 54. I was fairly young, and the first time she came, I said, mom, you're dead. And she sort of looked at me like, you idiot.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

You know? But then she came again, and it was such a powerful experience. I actually wrote a book about it. The dream was she came in a garden. She was walking with me in a garden. And I saw a bird sing, and I saw a plash in the pond, and I saw a coin fall. And she said, all these three things seem to be separate events, but they're actually connected like a single wave through water.

[Oprah Winfrey]

She said that to you?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And that's not my mom.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. Okay, okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

But that was showing me a whole realm that is inside that's so profound. And really the word awesome comes to mind.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Awesome.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. So how did you get drawn into this sort of inner world?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It started. I mean, I think the personal journey has to do with the fact that I've had these dreams. And I think everyone or many people have had a dream that is so meaningful and so undeniable. Whose reality is so undeniable?

[Giraffe Wallow]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

That brings to question, well, what is real? Maybe this is more real.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. What was that dream for you?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, for example, the one I told you about. My mother. Really? It seemed very real to me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And how old were you at the time?

[Roger Kamenetz]

You said she was 34 when she died. I think 30 something. And it was like a lightning bolt. Really.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how did you interpret. And I know you say that we shouldn't be interpreting them.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah, we should work them. Because when you work with a dream therapist, then the whole idea is that I take the opportunity of the dream to help you feel into your feelings and to know how you handle certain feelings in your waking life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, do we have to have a dream therapist such as yourself? Because most people aren't going to get you, Roger.

[Roger Kamenetz]

They can begin to appreciate their dreams. They begin to feel the feelings in their dreams. But the problem is generally for most people, at the beginning, they get their dreams exactly backwards.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really? How so?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, you may see this figure who's really terrifying and he's coming at you and you're so afraid you start running. But actually he's trying to help you. But if he evokes fear in you, you'll never have the encounter. You'll never.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You'll see what it really is.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Exactly. Okay, so you'll have a reaction.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so all of our dreams mean something?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Oh, yes, I think so, yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And is the something that all of our dreams mean related to what is going on with ourselves?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes, with the soul in the sense that we have an outer life. And you were referring to the beginning, about the two lives. Yes, we have an outer life, our careers, our ups and downs, our relationships, but we also have an inner life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, you say this in the very beginning. You say, I know there is a conscious mind and an unconscious, but I don't always think about what that implies. That more than half of who I am and what I am is completely unknown to me, except in fragments and glimpses, images and dreams. To receive these gifts, we must learn how to dream, which sounds easy enough, but I mean dreaming with a purpose, learning to use dreaming as a way to depth. I want to share a dream with you that I had that really was the most profound, life changing dream. And because it has been life changing, it'd be interesting to see how you interpret it and how I interpreted it for myself. Okay, so this is the dream. First of all, I love having flying dreams. And I read this whole book Trying to see how I can have flying dreams more. Because I just love flying dreams where you feel the weightlessness of yourself, where you really, absolutely feel like you've left your body and you're flying. So this was a flying dream where I really wasn't flying very high. I was skimming the trees. And every now and then, I would dart down closer to the ground, and there would be children following me. Beautiful children of all different races and, you know, different parts of the world. I'd never seen such a rainbow of children wearing a rainbow of colors. I thought, oh, there's a rainbow of children wearing a rainbow of colors. To me, all those children represented the world and also represented the rainbow inside myself. Now, what's interesting is I'm having the dream and interpreting feeling what the dream means while I'm in the dream. So in the dream, I am flying just above the trees, and every now and then darting down close to the ground, and the children were following me and laughing and. And every time I'd get close to the ground with the children, children would look up and they would say, what are you here to teach me? What are you here to teach me? And I would try to get the words or say something to them, and they'd say, no, what are you here to teach me? What are you here to teach me? And that continued for, gosh, I don't know how long. But my interpretation of that was when I awakened. I mean, I felt it, and still. I mean, it was years and years and years ago, I had that. That became the central question for my life. What are you here to teach me in every experience? So after that dream, I started to look at every experience that I had, Whether it was a difficult experience or something wonderful happening. I would say inside myself, hmm, what is this here to teach me? What is this here to teach me? Okay, so you tell me what the dream meant. What's your interpretation of that dream?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Roger, the thing that's interesting about your dream is I've had a lot of flying dreams, and I feel, well, how

[Oprah Winfrey]

can I have more?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I love the flying dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, because they're very pleasant. But the pleasant part of that is it's also somewhat mental.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It's actually a lot of. Interestingly enough, you mentioned meditation. A lot of meditators have flying dreams.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Really?

[Roger Kamenetz]

And the reason is they're flying way above the world in a certain way, and they feel good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

However, there's something missing. And what. The part of your soul that's missing is represented by the Children.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And the work I do usually represent the soul. So it's possible that the dream is showing you a difference between the kind of pleasure, the pleasure of flying, which is great. I've had those dreams.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And the encounter with the kids, that creates a certain kind of anxiety, I think, and even concern and so forth. So I'm suggesting that that's where I would work with that dream. And you might have other dreams with children to work with.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you're saying there are layers and layers and layers to it.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Sure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And also air dreams, flying dreams tend to be fairly mental. It's a kind of pleasure. That's. The air is associated more with the mind.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

But when you get down into the water, that's where you're more deeply in feeling, that we call feeling by feeling. And that's where you go down further.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's where you go down into more depth. Further. Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Okay. Does that make sense?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, it does. You say that also dreams can become meditation. Exactly. Tailored to our spiritual condition.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How so?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I had a dream about you, and there was a young boy in your house.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I had a dream about a young boy, and I remember and holding him up, saying, where have you been?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All this time, where have you been? I knew you were here.

[Giraffe Wallow]

I knew.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

That's part of yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a part of myself.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. It's your soul. Usually the dreams, the baby, they come in different ways. And so children in dreams represent parts of it, like the spontaneity, the energy, the. The beauty of being a child, which you have. The fact that you have children in your dreams means that you're still in touch with all of that. You haven't lost any of that. They're still showing up. And that's what that means to me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But how is this. It sounds like that this is interpreting our dreams. How is this not interpreting?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, because most interpretation comes from a fearful place. If we're afraid, and mostly fear is a real core layer of feeling. Fear is really underneath a lot of our feelings. So if we interpret our dreams from the place where we're really, truly afraid of the things we're afraid to face in ourselves, then that interpretation will relieve us of the dream, and then we can just forget about it and, you know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Got that.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah. Like, when you wake up, as soon as you say, that's a good dream, in a way, you're interpreting it, maybe it's not so good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't Sigmund Freud rolling over in his grave right now listening to you?

[Roger Kamenetz]

He's spinning.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's spinning.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah, because he. Although he's a great pioneer, and he. But he had no Sigmund Freud.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Roger Kamenetz]

He went in there naked, he went down there into that world of dreams for five years, wrote this incredible book. But he armed himself with his intellect and his theory. And it's a brilliant theory, but it's coming from a place of fear. He's afraid. He's afraid to hear the voices. Like there's a woman in one of his dreams who says, can't you see that you're hurting me? And he opens her mouth, look down her throat, like a doctor. She's not saying it for him to be a doctor. She's saying it for him to feel. That's not a place he could go to. You see?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I see. I see. So for. I know, for the listener here who's thinking, and a lot of us have been told for years that if you dream about snakes, it means this thing. If you dream about that, you're saying none of that's true.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Not necessarily.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's about what snakes mean to you.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. I mean, your daddy might have been a snake handler. In this case, dreaming a snake would mean a totally different thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And also snakes, which are somewhat. Snakes are particularly interesting. Cause they have both. They can be both negative, like scary, negative poison. But they can also be positive energy, sort of sexual energy. So they have this sort of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's all what it means to you. Now, this is what's interesting. I have learned that sometimes I can take in subconsciously things that are happening during the day, and they end up in my dreams at night. And so if I am gonna run across something. If I run across something that I think might be a little disturbing, rather than resisting it and shutting it out, I will try to embrace it so that it doesn't have to come up in my dream later at night.

[Roger Kamenetz]

That's interesting. Yeah. You don't wanna see it again in your dream?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't wanna see it again. And if I don't wanna see it again in my dream, and I think that it might be something that might disturb me later in a dream. I'm a very sensitive individual, Roger. You may not know that about me, but I'm very sensitive.

[Roger Kamenetz]

I'm feeling you.

[Wayfair Announcer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. I'm talking to Roger Kamenetz, author of the History of Last Night's Dream, about how all of our dreams, all of us who are dreaming and dreaming every night, those dreams are a gift to us if you learn how to work them. But anyway, what I know is I'm so sensitive that I cannot watch television. Now, I've said this for many years. People don't really believe me, but I don't watch television. I'm sort of like the cobbler's children who have no shoes. Because I do television all day. You know, it's just not interesting to me to watch tv. And especially late at night. Whatever I watch is going to be. Somehow it pierces the veil of myself and I end up dreaming about it no matter how hard I try. Whatever I watch or whatever I read before going. So what I learned a long time ago is if I'm just even flipping through a channel, flipping through a channel and see an image on that channel, and it's a disturbing image, that image will somehow enter my dream, you know, and. And then what happens and cause me to be upset. Like, I don't watch movies where women are, you know, raped, attacked, harmed. I don't watch violence, whatever. That violence will bombard my.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And penetrate through.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And penetrate through all the time. I mean, I'm telling you, if I just see it for a second. So now what I do, if I see an image or something, if I'm riding along and I see an image that's disturbing, what I'll do is I will fully take it in. I will fully take it in, come to a, you know, a conclusion about however I feel about it. I will let myself feel it so that it doesn't have to show up to make me feel it later. Does that make sense?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes. And I think that that is behind the history of interpretation that every human being has this anxiety and fear that they don't want to experience in their dreams. But I think that the right, the stronger way to go is to face into your fear because then you can go and find out what's underneath it. In other words, that the fearful images themselves that appear in your dreams are inviting you to face into your fear and then discover underneath what it is that's causing that fear. What do you think? Oh, yeah. And I know it sounds the opposite of pleasant, and it may be I

[Oprah Winfrey]

don't want to do that in my sleep. Well, I would rather deal with it while I'm awake, Roger. That's what I'd rather do. I mean, if I see an image like, you know, just something really disturbing, I will, instead of flipping through it, I'll go back, I'll take the whole image in, put. Put it into my conscious mind so that I can deal with it, come to a conclusion, deal with it in My waking mind, rather than have to deal with it in the dream and go figure it out.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, I think that that's mental. And so the issue is, how do you feel into your feelings and go through them? Because, you know, basically, like, let me give you an example. Someone else, not. Not you. Is that okay? We're cool. So a woman client I had whose dad used to beat her up as a child. Really sad background. She dreamed that she was interviewing the fire chief in a car who was also her dad, and the car caught on fire, and she crawled over her dad and her dad burned. Now, her reaction to that dream was guilt. She felt bad. And I said, he's a fire chief. What does that, you know, he knows what fire is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Roger Kamenetz]

You don't have to feel guilty anymore about what your dad did to you. Because a lot of times when people are abused, they take the guilt onto themselves. They feel like they've done something wrong, that they deserve it. So the dream was really a horrible dream. Not pleasant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Roger Kamenetz]

But as we worked through it and you got to the other side, it was such a relief to her. She'd been feeling that way all her life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Roger Kamenetz]

So a dream could unlock.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Were you always a spiritual person, or did this work lead you to a deeper level of spirituality for yourself?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I think that this work has led me to a much deeper level. I think I've been involved in, you know, religious dialogue with Tibetan Buddhists. And, you know, I wrote a book about that years ago. And so I've been around a lot of great teachers. The Dalai Lama, but I think in terms of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your teacher, Mark Bregman.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Mark Bregman, who's incredible, you know, an amazing teacher who I discovered, you know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you're saying, for those of you who are just joining us this week, that all of our dreams mean something and that the dreams are really a pathway to begin to discover the three gifts that they have to offer us. Would you tell our listeners, viewers, what those gifts are?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Sure. The first gift is basically to discover your predicament and what's. I mean, in, you know, what's in opposition to your soul emerging into the world, to your really being who you were meant to be, who you were born to be. And the second is to see that soul as another character, as usually a little boy or a little girl, and to understand how that soul came into the world, what the issue is that you've been sent down here to deal with at the soul level. And then the third piece is this whole realm of exploring this inner World that becomes so complex and feeling. How these archetypes, which come, male and female, I call them in the book VIPs, very important persons, how they work with you. They work with you as teachers, in your dreams, in such a gentle and just, powerful way that you could learn a lot just from the way they work with you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But, you know, we all have dreams about getting lost or getting nowhere, running around in circles. And though, you know, these are all seemingly, you know, trivial experiences, you believe that all of these dreams have something to teach us about clues about not only who we are, but also why we're here?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Sure, Absolutely. Let me give you an example, if I could. I had a dream that a lot of people have in different fields. In my version, I teach. I'm a professor at lsu. So the dream is, I walk into a classroom. I don't know what subject I'm supposed to teach. And so, you know, I figure, okay, I'll throw out a few lines of, you know, and see what they say, and then I'll get an idea of what I'm supposed to be doing there. The students turn their heads, they ignore me, they walk out of the classroom. That's the dream. Now, most people say, oh, that's an anxiety dream. Yeah, I would think that actors have dreams like that where they don't know their lines or what play they're in, so forth.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know what? Mine is so funny. It's interesting how you say that everybody. I didn't know that everybody fits whatever their chosen field is. Mine is, I'm reading the News with Walter Cronkite. I am reading the News with Walter Cronkite, and my script is completely out of order, right? And I'm always on the wrong page. And Walter is sitting there and he cannot believe that I can't get the fricking script in order. And I can't either, because here is my. I'm sitting with Walter Cronkite, right?

[Roger Kamenetz]

He's the big daddy.

[Wayfair Announcer]

He's the father.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's the big daddy.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Really? And your anxiety is really a feeling of inadequacy when you're with him, not measuring up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And of all the times in the world for my script to be out of order. And why didn't I put the script in order before?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It's not about the script. It's about your feeling that it's done on purpose to get you to feel more deeply into that feeling and recognize that you probably have that feeling a lot in your life. And so the script is just a ruse it's kind of a trick to get you to have that feeling in connection to whatever Walter represents. He's clearly an archetypal guy, right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I had one with Stevie Wonder once performing on the floor where I couldn't get the words and I was having a lot of anxiety at the time. I was away from home and feeling really disconnected and then every night I would have the same dream and the closer I got to home, the more lines I could remember. But you're saying that's not anxiety? I certainly thought it was.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It is anxiety.

[Oprah Winfrey]

By the end I was singing with Stevie Wonder on the stage.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It is anxiety, but underneath it is a feeling of inadequacy.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, isn't that what anxiety is? Isn't that what everything is? Isn't that. Isn't that the key question for almost all of us all the time? Am I good enough?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I don't mean it that way. I think at the soul level, we feel inadequate in relation to the Divine. We. We all feel inadequate. We need to feel. It's hard to believe that there could be such a connection to someone as worthless as oneself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You lost me there, Roger. At the soul level, we feel

[Giraffe Wallow]

lost

[Oprah Winfrey]

in relation to the Divine. I thought at the soul level, we all recognize that we come from the Divine at the soul level, not at our ego level, but at our soul level, we realize that we come from the greater soul. At the soul consciousness level, presence level, we recognize that we are part of the greater presence, the greater.

[Roger Kamenetz]

That's a belief that many people have.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I don't believe that. I feel that.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, when you feel it, you're not feeling inadequate.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is true.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right, so that's my point. But when you're feeling inadequate, you probably aren't really feeling a connection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay then. Okay, I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to. Yes. Oh, good. Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Feeling a little inadequate there?

[Oprah Winfrey]

No. So I agree with you, Roger, that when we are feeling disconnected, alienated, things aren't going well in our lives. What we're disconnected from is the greater soul or God. And we feel, how could something so omnipotent love me?

[Roger Kamenetz]

And these are feelings.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How could I be of value in a world of such greatness?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Each soul is different, so it really would depend. Some people truly don't feel that even at that level. The child, the little child that they see doesn't have the ability to feel that, or they might feel disconnected. Like in my work, I found out that my boy was an orphan. And so that boy did not feel he was taken care of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you mean? In your work, you found out that that boy was.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, after a series of dreams where I was lost and wandering, Yes. I ended up in an orphanage, which terrified me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your boy, you mean yourself?

[Roger Kamenetz]

My boy? Yeah, my soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your soul, yeah. And you're saying that when you dream about a child or children, it really is representative of your soul?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes, can be. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. And so that's what you're talking about when you're saying my boy.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. And that's my boy. And I also have a girl, but I have a boy. It's both gender. It's not gender specific necessarily, but the point Is that to get to that point, you have to get past the opposition. There's a part of you that wants to take you away from your soul, from the boy, from the child, from

[Oprah Winfrey]

the boy, from the child. Is your soul always a child? And why is it a child in this work?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It appears that way, yeah. It appears as a child. And I think partly because the children carry the feeling of the connection. Children are closer to the feeling of that connection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely. You talk about during REM sleep that we also are able to disconnect from our sense of identity and the ego.

[Roger Kamenetz]

True. Yes. And that's so fascinating that the dreams open up this free imaginative realm where so much can happen. There's no time or space. There's no before or after.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everything's so lucid.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah. The dead and the living can appear in our dreams at the same time. We've, like, abolished ordinary time and space.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so here's a question for you. When the dead and the living appear in our dreams, are they appearing or are they just our dreams? You told us the last time about that profound dream that you had of your mother. And when I said, was your mother really there? This is after your mother passed, when she was 54 and you were 30 something, you said, yes, my mother was there. And lots of people who are listening to us right now or watching us, however, have had these dreams where someone has died and they feel like they were there. So my question is, when you're dreaming, are the people there? Or is it a dream, or is it a manifestation of spirit somehow?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I don't know. I just know how it feels.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, okay. That's a really good answer.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It really feels real. And I think people have those experiences. It's almost shocking how powerful that encounter is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So tell us again about your mother. Your mother died. Did she come to visit you the same night she died?

[Roger Kamenetz]

No, she didn't. It was a few months later and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And she showed up and you said, hey, but you're dead.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah, the first time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Said, hey, you're dead. And she kind of looked at me like, you idiot.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

But then she later appeared and gave me this message that basically that. That there was a realm of experience where things are connected, where everything is one. Even though in our everyday life it doesn't feel that way at all. It's so chaotic.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what did you do, the three things you did?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Oh, well, we were in a garden and we saw a bird was singing. A coin fell, and there was a splash in a fountain. And she said, all of these Things that appear like separate events are actually a single motion of a single wave through water. They were all one.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How was the bird singing

[Roger Kamenetz]

one? How was it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I mean, how was the bird singing? The same as the coin dropping and the how.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. It boggles the mind. I don't claim to understand it at the material level, waking level, but yet it seemed to me pointing to the idea that even though we don't see all the hidden connections between events, they're actually there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Earlier, you were talking about the opposition, which is a prevalent character in our. In our dreams. And what does the opposite is the opposition represent in waking life?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It can be obligation, duty. I had one client who dreamed. He wanted to. He was a professor, but he wanted to be an artist. He saw a little girl on the beach with a drawing. He loved her. He was really attracted to her. And then a fella in a business suit came across and said, come with me. I want to show you a new building. And he goes off with the guy and leaves the little girl behind. So the opposition appeared as the man in the business suit. And when I asked him about it, he said, well, yeah, if someone asked me to look at a new building when I visited their campus, I would do it. So he was more drawn to him than to stay with a little girl who really was part of who he is. More deeply, he was losing his soul, literally leaving her behind on the beach.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Suppose we're having these dreams, you know. Cause I know everybody's just thinking about their own dreams. And what Roger is saying in this book, the history of last night's dream, is that all of our dreams are there to be a gift to us. And what we should do is embrace them. So let's just say, first of all, you need to read the book to fully understand all that we're talking about here today. But everybody's gonna go to bed tonight and they're gonna have a dream. What is the first thing we should do to try to remember that dream?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It'd be good to write your dream down as soon as you have it and read it over and think and feel the images without interpreting it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you should write it down. Because there have been times where I didn't do this because I thought, oh, I'll remember that. Cause that was so strong. And then you don't. You lose it.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And everyday life sort of takes over.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When we write things down, don't we sort of overwrite them? Overwrite the images as you're writing it down. And isn't the imagery more important Than anything. That's what I got from.

[Roger Kamenetz]

The images are important and the feelings.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Yeah, yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And we went over your dream last week. I slowed it down to ask you what you were feeling at each point. So if you can do that for yourself and just ask yourself, what am I feeling? Do I ever feel this in waking life? How does that correspond to some feelings I have when I'm awake? That's very helpful too, I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Then this dream with the children, the children were saying to me, what are you here to teach me? What are you here to teach me? Should we be asking that of each of our dreams, though? What are you here to teach me? Because every dream is here to further enhance and be a gift to us, is it not?

[Roger Kamenetz]

First of all, that's such a profound question which came to you in a dream.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Roger Kamenetz]

What are you here to teach me? It's a question I can ask of you. You can ask it of me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I ask. And what I learned from that dream is what I was saying last week, is that I learned to ask that of everything. That is the most important question you can ask of everything and every experience. What are you here to teach me?

[Roger Kamenetz]

And it's a question that comes from the soul if asked at a deep enough level. And those kids are asking that. So I think that that's a tremendous yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And, you know, I had that dream, okay. So it's been 10 years now since I was on trial. And I remember having had that dream before really helped me get through that trial, because through every aspect of the trial, I would say, all right, now, what is this here to teach me? Right. I'm obviously here because I needed to learn this. And what is this here to teach me? And what is this here to teach me?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, the kids. Children in general in dreams are more vulnerable. They're more open. Their feelings are more direct. And so getting to know them and be with them and then ultimately to be them is part of the journey in dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was that dream with your mother?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yes, ma'.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Am. Was that the most transformative dream you've ever encountered?

[Roger Kamenetz]

No, not at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not at all.

[Roger Kamenetz]

No. In fact, I think the most important dream is probably one of the dreams that I have in the book where I'm an orphan, but my father comes to visit me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And then when he leaves, I weep because I realize that he is my father and I missed him. And so that longing for the Father is really an important feeling. The separation that we feel from the Father, from God, from the divine, is painful. But we can say that. But to actually feel it in a dream was truly. That was a transformative experience.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How old were you when that happened?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It was just before I wrote the book, so I was in my 50s.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I'm talking to Roger Kamen, it's author of the History of Last Night's Dream. So back to our listener, viewer, who is going to now write down their dream. How do they then begin to do the work of allowing whatever that dream is from tonight? Because people are gonna have some very vivid ones after listening to all this, whatever that dream is. How do they begin to do the work to allow that dream to lead them to the path to the soul?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Try to know what the feelings are that the dreams are waking up to go to the feelings, to try to remember the feelings and see how they connect to your waking life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

If you're having the same dream over and over and over again, is that because that dream is trying to tell you something or teach you something?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It can be, for instance, the dream I had where I'm the think I'm the teacher. The way I got at it, I mean, the way I changed was Mark said, how do you know you're the teacher when you walk in? I said, well, of course I'm the teacher. I've been teaching for 25 years. He said, well, how do you know? Does anyone say you're the teacher? I said, no, but you know who you are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know your own self in a dream.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, but in the dream you can behave differently.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I know that.

[Roger Kamenetz]

So he said, I want you to do homework. And imagine this is Mark, your dream teacher, Mark Bregman. Yeah. Imagine that you're not a teacher. So I worked on that, and it was really hard because as I tried to imagine myself as a student, all this stuff came in. Like, what did I work all these years for? And why did I learn so much? And now I'm a student, you know, So I had to struggle with that, and I did. And then I finally had a dream over where I walked in and I sat down with the students and then the teacher came in. So that was a real shift inside me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Wow.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

As you were just saying that, I was thinking maybe I wasn't flying above the children. Maybe I was one of the children.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Maybe you're supposed to land among them. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, maybe. Well, you say when you die in your dream that it's the ultimate alchemy. What does that mean?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, as we separate from the old conditioned self that is not faithful to the soul, to what we're meant to be, we can have dreams of dying. And it's such a scary experience.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Roger Kamenetz]

And then this fear we were talking about that everyone has, you get to experience and work through it and then you never quite feel as afraid again. You don't feel the same kind of fear.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what is this fear that everyone has?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Oh, I think it's just a primal feeling underneath all our feelings. It's normal. Everyone has it. It's just so basic to being a human being.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can our dreams help us to release these fears?

[Roger Kamenetz]

It can help us experience them directly instead of projecting out into the world, which makes it really hard to know what's going on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Roger Kamenetz]

If I'm, you know, let's say I'm afraid of you. And so I project from that place of fear onto you all kinds of stuff. She's judging me. She doesn't like this or that. Whatever.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You would do this after you've had the dream.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Right.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Write the dream down. Look at what that really means. Try to find somebody like yourself or.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wherever Mark, to help you.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so you're not saying do it within the. Because I try to do it while I'm dreaming the dream.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. That's a lot of people who are. Have powerful intellects and are used to doing that can do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But thank you so much for describing me as one of those people.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, but, no, I am in the dream trying to interpret the dream while I'm having.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It doesn't surprise me because you like flying above. You like that approach the trees, the high above thing. And so you want to. You were taking the dream from the top down. But.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But no. And I can be in the dream and say, oh, I'm dreaming.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Right. But that protects you a little bit from the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Going all the way down.

[Roger Kamenetz]

There you go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Going all the way.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Primal feeling.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So are you saying that when I'm in the dream and I can tell that I'm in the dream and I'm interpreting the dream while I'm in the dream, then I'm really not deep enough in it?

[Roger Kamenetz]

You're kind of. You could spoil it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I could spoil it?

[Roger Kamenetz]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The dreams and I have. I've spoiled it. I've spoiled it and woke myself up because I'm talking to myself too much.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, I think there are things you don't like to feel. Not just you, Oprah. I mean, everybody.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, well, let's get personal here, Roger.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Well, I'm trying. Well, we have been personal. I'm telling you my dreams, you're telling me yours.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There are things I don't like to feel.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Every human being has things they don't like to feel. Like being scared.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Okay.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Or being terrified or being hurt or being abandoned. I mean, we all have these terrible. You know, these are terrible things to feel.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Roger Kamenetz]

We don't want to feel them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, this has just been a joy talking to you. We got a minute and 27 seconds. So I have to ask you, what is the single most important aspect of the dream work that we can consider before we doze off tonight? Can we control or have some influence as to what we might want to dream?

[Roger Kamenetz]

I don't think we should. I think dreams are the last.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Leave them alone.

[Roger Kamenetz]

They're natural, so let's let them be natural. Let's not try to interfere with them. We control everything in our lives. Let's leave one area where we don't control, and that's our dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All right. It's been a joy.

[Roger Kamenetz]

It's been a great pleasure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[Roger Kamenetz]

Thank you, too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The book is called the History of Last Night's Discovering the Hidden Path to the Soul. Love it. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Giraffe Wallow]

Hey guys, it's Giraffe Wallow. From the comment section. Listen. It's time to stop settling for hair products that just don't work, baby. With all the prestige brands at Sephora, upgrading your routine is easy. If your hair needs repair, They've got the K18 leave in molecular Repair Hair Mask. If you're trying to level up your wash day, the Kerasome Elixir Ultime Hair Oil leaves your hair looking ridiculously shiny without feeling heavy. Also, Sephora makes it super convenient with free shipping and same day delivery. Shop hair at Sephora and give your hair the upgrade it's been waiting for.

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[Roger Kamenetz]

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