← Oprah's Super Soul
Oprah's Super Soul
Super Soul Special: Anthony Ray Hinton, Part 1: Freedom After 30 Years on Death Row
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- [00:02]
Anthony Ray Hinton
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Jamie
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Knox
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Jamie
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Anthony Ray Hinton
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- [01:59]
Oprah Winfrey
I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.
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I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time.
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Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. In 1985, 29 year old Anthony Ray Hinton was arrested and charged with the brutal murders of two fast food restaurant workers in Birmingham, Alabama. Despite no eyewitnesses, no evidence against him and a solid alibi, Anthony Hinton was tried by a white prosecutor, a white judge and an all white jury. Found guilty and sentenced to death for 30 years, Anthony Hinton suffered in isolation and darkness on death row during that time, he was forced to bear witness as 54 men and one woman walked right by his seat down the long hallway to their execution. But not even death row could dim the light inside Anthony Ray Hinton. For nearly three decades, he found a way to hang on, to hope, stay positive, and even inspire his fellow inmates in the prison guards. And then one fateful day, Anthony Hinton met criminal defense attorney Bryan Stevenson. Stevenson and the Equal justice initiative spent 16 years working on Mr. Hinton's case. Finally, in 2014, the United States Supreme Court unanimously overturned Anthony Ray Hinton's conviction. On a spring morning In Alabama, after 30 years on death row, Anthony Hinton walked out of the Jefferson County Jail a free man. Now, his moving, awe inspiring memoir, the Sun Does Shine, is my latest book club selection. It is a powerful lesson on faith, forgiveness, and redemption that I believe will not only inspire, but also will wake a lot of people up to unjust circumstances that are happening every day in our country.
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So welcome to our podcast here.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Well, thank you for having me.
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Oprah Winfrey
I bet there was a time where you never thought you would be sitting here in my office or even seeing the sun shine the way it is out here on this beautiful California day.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
No, I really didn't. When you've been convicted of capital murder, especially in the south, and you don't have the money to afford an attorney.
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Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
It's just in your mind. Just a matter of time.
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Oprah Winfrey
Just a matter of time. Just a matter of time.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'.
- [04:39]
Oprah Winfrey
Am. So you spent. I want to just tell our audience here. I've been listening to people's stories for most of my career, since I was 19 years old. And this is one of the most incredible stories I've ever heard. You spent nearly 30 years on death row for crimes you did not commit. It's really just, you know, when I was reading your story, I was trying to picture myself holding on to hope, holding on, keeping the faith. I don't know if I could have done it. I just don't know if I could have done it. But you survived. And it's really an incredible story of faith and resilience and triumph. I thought about Viktor Frankl, actually, and his that he wrote when he was in the camps in Germany, in Auschwitz, called Man's Search for Meaning. And I think you found a lot of meaning in those years.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
I did. The first three years, I went into this dog hole.
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Oprah Winfrey
Mm.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
And not realizing at the time, but the dog hole is what saved me.
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Oprah Winfrey
Saved you. I just want to tell people who aren't familiar with the Sun Does Shine. I hope you will get the book and read it. It's the reason why I've chosen it is Summer's Book Club selection because I just think every person should read it, one of the reviews said in his intense memoir, Anthony Ray Hinton recounts his three decade nightmare awaiting execution for crimes he didn't commit. Mr. Hinton here provides a convincing description of continued segregation and injustice in the Deep south that cages the underclass as effectively as prison walls. His depictions of prison life are wrenching and after 30 years, his dogged pursuit of justice led civil rights attorney Bryan Stevenson to adopt his cause. Mr. Hinton was freed from prison in 2015 and now works as a motivational speaker. His life is one of inspiration, which he wonderfully relays here in bitingly honest prose. It's a masterful, moving read. So congratulations on thank you so much on getting this book done. And I love that you call it the Sun Does Shine.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes ma'. Am.
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Oprah Winfrey
Because those were your words when you came outside for the first time after being held behind bars for 30 years.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes ma'. Am.
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Oprah Winfrey
And everybody was expecting you to say
- [06:58]
Anthony Ray Hinton
something and you said the sun does shine. I never will forget that morning. Exactly. The judge had ordered me to be released at 9:30 and I had told Mr. Stevenson to bring me a suit and brought me the suit. We changed and I kept looking at the watch. Finally at 9:30 they ushered us through the door and it seemed as though the sun was shining on no one but me. And I looked over at Mr. Stevens and see was the sun shining on him as well and I couldn't see it. And then as I walked a little further it was just as though the sun was following me. And I got up to the podium and I said the sun doth shine because I had been in pure hell and darkness for all those years and I don't think I can even put in that book or tell you today what it's like to be on death row for something that you know you didn't do. Yeah, and to put up with everything you have to put up.
- [07:59]
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- [08:04]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Oh, I had a question, our host replied.
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- [08:10]
Anthony Ray Hinton
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- [08:11]
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- [08:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you know, in every story, I think people try to imagine themselves in that story or imagine themselves, you know, what would you do or have done? And I remember years ago, I was on trial in 1998 for saying something bad about a burger. And I was on trial for six weeks in Texas. And I remember thinking every day, what if the sentencing here was not just money or a fine? I was found not guilty, by the way. But what if the sentencing was that I would have to go to jail for something that I knew I didn't do? And I thought about for the first time, in a real way, all the people who were in jail for things they didn't do and how horrible that must be. I mean, just how it just would eat you up inside to know that justice was not served. And now you're behind bars for it. So I want you to take us back, actually, to the day you were mowing your mother's lawn and you're out there cutting the grass for your mom because you were living at home with your mom. You were 29 years old at the time.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
Yes. And would you say you were mama's boy? Because you sure did love your mama.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
I am. And I still love her. And although she's not here, she will always be here. Yeah.
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Oprah Winfrey
In your heart.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Oh, yes. There's not a day that go by, not a night that I don't take her photo and kiss and say goodnight. Mom. One would have to understand, where I come from, my father didn't abandon us. He lost his mind. And so my mom had to be my father and mother.
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Oprah Winfrey
So your father became. Was mentally ill?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'.
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Oprah Winfrey
Am.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
And so I cannot sit here and look you in the eye and tell you that I missed anything other than having a father. My mother was tougher than any man could ever be. And so I was somewhat afraid of her. And my mother was the type if she said, I'm going to the store, and I mean for you to count your finger until I get back, you better be counting when she pulled back up. But it was a hot day in July and I went inside to get some lemonade and my mom asked me was I going to revival. And I said, yes, ma'. Am. And so I got this lemonade, went on back outside and drunk it, brought the glass back, and my mother was there again. And she said, what time revival start? And I said, seven o', clock, Mama. And she said, well, you got time to go out and cut that grass. And I tried to give her that baby look, but it wasn't working today for some reason. And I said, mom, I promise you tomorrow I'll cut that grass. And my mom looked at me and she said, I'm trying my best to see how that you get. You'll cut the grass tomorrow out of me telling you to go cut the grass. And she looked at me, boy, you better get out there and cut that grass. And out the door I go. In about 20, 25 minutes into cutting the grass, I happened to look up and there stood two white gentlemen that I didn't know. I cut the lawnmower off. And I said, can I help you? And one of them replied, I'm looking for Anthony Ray Hinton. I said, that would be me again, how can I help you? Then they identified themselves as two detectives. And I said, okay, how can I help you? They said, we have a warrant for your arrest. And I said, for what? And they said, we'll tell you that later, but right now we want you to put your hands behind your back. I complied, put my hands behind my back. They put the handcuff on me, proceeded to put me in the squad cuff. But I. I said, at least allow me the opportunity to go in and tell my mother I'm being arrested for something. And one of the detectives said, no, we're not going to let you go back in. You can't go back in. And we argued for about two minutes. And finally the other detectives said, let him go in and tell his mother. And I goes in and I just shows my mother the handcuff. And like any good mother, she began to scream and holler, what are those handcuffs doing on my baby? And wanted the detectives to take him out while I stand here and talk to his mother. Few minutes later, he comes out. We go, proceeded to go to jail. And I asked the detective at least 50 times, why am I being arrested? They would not respond, would not say a word. And as they drove a little further, they asked him again, I said, detective, why am I being arrested? And he finally turned around, the one that wasn't driving, and he said, you want to know why you've been arrested? I said, yes. He said, we're charging you with first degree robbery, first degree kidnap, first degree attempted murder. I said, oh, I ain't done none of that. And he kind of yelled at me, let me tell you something right now. I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it, but I'm going to make sure you found guilty of it. I said, for a crime I didn't commit. He said, you must have a hearing problem. Didn't I tell you I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it? He said, but you remember this. If you remember nothing else, I'm going to make sure you found guilty of it. And as we drove a little farther down the road, if that wasn't, I guess, insult enough, he turned around and he said, by the way, there's five things that go on to convict you. Would you like to know what they are? I said, yes. He said, number one, you black. Number two, a white man is going to say you shot him. Whether you shot him or not. He said, believe me, I do not care. He said, number three, you're going to have a white prosecutor. Number four, you're going to have a white judge. And number five, more than likely you're going to have an all white jury. He said, do you know what that spell? And he repeated the word conviction. Conviction, Conviction, conviction, conviction. And we got to the police station. They put me in this holding cell for about two and a half hours. And finally he came in and I said, detective, if you don't mind, will you tell me what date and what time this crime took place? And he goes through his fold and he look and he tell me the date and the time. And I said, thank you, Jesus. I said, I was at work at that particular date and that particular time. And I said, thank you, God. I said, my supervisor happened to be white. Here's his phone number, here's the address. And they takes out, they stay gone for about four and a half hours. And he come back.
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Oprah Winfrey
Cause you thought my supervisor is going to clear all of this up.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
You got the wrong man.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. And they goes out there and they come back and he says, well, I got good news and bad news. He said, the good news is we no longer gonna charge you for first degree robbery, first degree kidnapped, first degree attempted murder. Your alibi takes checks out. You was at work. He said, but now the bad news, the bad news is we. I don't know who we is, but we have decided that we gonna charge you with two counts of first degree Capital murder. I said, but I haven't killed anyone. He said, do you remember when I told you coming over here, I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it? He said that whole fact. For these new charges, I don't care whether you did it or didn't do it, but you remember this. I'm gonna make sure you found guilty of it.
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Oprah Winfrey
This is the police officer?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
This is the police officer.
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Oprah Winfrey
Wow.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Amy, were you.
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Oprah Winfrey
Were you terrified? Did you realize the magnitude of the severity of what had just happened to you? Did you?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
I didn't.
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Oprah Winfrey
Because, you know, or you still in. You're just still in disbelief?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
I'm in disbelief because as I talked to the detective, the detective said something profound to me, that he looked at me and he said, let me tell you something. He said, I really believe you didn't do it. He said, but since y' all is always taking up from one another, y', all, y', all, he's used to work. He said, take this for your homeboy. And with tears down my eyes, I said, detective, I don't have a homeboy in this world that I would take a rap like this for. And I always been brought up, Ms. Winfrey, to believe that the police wanted to get the right person.
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Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
But this day, for some reason, they just wanted a body.
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Oprah Winfrey
Cause your mother raised you to. She's one of those strong black women, Southern women.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
Believes in authority.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
Believed if you worked hard, showed up, things would turn out all right for you. Just tell the truth. Tell the truth, and everything will turn out all right. Go to the police. The police will help you, is what she believed. That the police were the people to help you.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
And they kept you.
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Right. You never. Based on what I read in the book, you never went back home.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
No.
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Oprah Winfrey
So they held you for a year and a half, 14 months.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
14 months before you even went to trial.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Absolutely.
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Oprah Winfrey
And the trial was just a fiasco because they had already decided.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. From the day the judge stood up and read the charges and asked me could I form an attorney. And I told him no. And he pointed me an attorney. And the attorney come up and didn't even ask me my name. He just said, I didn't go to law school to do pro bono work. And I looked at the attorney and I said, would it make a difference to you if I told you I was innocent?
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Oprah Winfrey
This is the guy who was assigned to defend you?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. And he looked at me, he said, you know, the problem with that statement is all of y' all is always doing something and then saying, you didn't do it.
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Oprah Winfrey
There goes y' all again. Yeah.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
And I go. And I sit in jail and I go to trial. I need a ballistic expert. He goes out and he get a civil engineer that was blinded in one eye. And I said to myself, so let
- [19:04]
Oprah Winfrey
me interrupt you here. So they go back to your mother's house and they get a gun that's a.38 caliber pistol.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
That hasn't been fired in 25 years.
- [19:13]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
And literally dust off that gun and claim that the bullets they found match the bullets in your mother's gun.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'. Am. Yes, ma'. Am.
- [19:24]
Oprah Winfrey
And wasn't there somebody who had said, but that gun hadn't been fired?
- [19:28]
Anthony Ray Hinton
The detective told, asked my mother, my neighbor was there. And she said, he asked your mama, why don't you clean this gun? Ain't nothing on this gun but dust. And she told him, she said, this gun hasn't been used in over 25 years. And they get it to the police station, clean it up, and lie and just lied. I don't know no other word to tell you they lied. Yeah, they really. They actually lied.
- [19:56]
Oprah Winfrey
So I want people to actually get the book. I hope you do. It reads like a novel. But when you recognize that every word of it's true, it's so startling. I want you to take us to the courtroom. After a year and a half has passed and you're sitting in the courtroom, and after the ballistics expert who turns out to be blind in one eye and incompetent that your lawyer had hired messes up so terribly on the witness stand, you knew then that you were going to be sentenced.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Absolutely. The prosecution crucified him. And when he asked him, did he know how to turn on the machine, he said, no, I had to ask for help. He said, once they helped you, what did you see? He said, I didn't see anything but my finger. He said, you never seen the bullets? He said, no, I finally seen them later on, but I seen just one time.
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Oprah Winfrey
Where did they get this guy who
- [20:52]
Anthony Ray Hinton
sounded like a buffoon off the street, I believe. But then they asked him, said, you nothing, no more than a charge. You come up here and then you go to the ballistic with a pair of pliers.
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Oprah Winfrey
Oh, so he was just a charlatan, right?
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, he was just a charlatan. Yes. And, you know, I never heard of. But back in the Western days, they used to get up there and say, whatever for 25 or $50.
- [21:18]
Oprah Winfrey
So that's what? Your lawyer had found somebody to do that.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
And he asked him, the DA asked him, said, how much are you getting paid? He said, well, I might get $50, I may get $100. I don't know, I may not even get anything. I just come, did the lawyer a favor and Ms. Winford, then I swore it.
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Oprah Winfrey
You knew it. You knew.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
I said, they're going to find me guilty. Because my case revolved around nothing but ballistics. Either they match or they don't match. No eyewitness, no fingerprint, no nothing. Just the state of Alabama was saying they match.
- [21:50]
Oprah Winfrey
So they have this fake guy who gets up that they paid whatever charlatan. They even called him a charlatan. Yes, they called him a charlatan. Yeah, the prosecution called him a charlatan.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
And what gets me is how the judge, my lawyer, the prosecutor would stand there and argue that this man was one of the best there is. The judge qualify him as dean because he get magazines and he know more than the average human being.
- [22:25]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, I have to say, you know, Bryan Stevenson, who wrote Just Mercy, writes about your story. It's one of the first stories in this book. And Bryan Stevenson, who's dedicated his life to trying to bring justice to people who have been unfairly convicted and left to die, is how I actually came to hear your story. I was visiting, doing a story on the lynching museum down there, and I saw your book on his desk. Saw your book on his desk. Sue, can you take us to, to the day you heard that the jury comes back in and they say, guilty. Can you take us to that moment?
- [23:03]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Well, when they said guilty, I really lost sight for a few seconds. My niece was behind me and I turned back to say something to her and I didn't recognize who she was. And when they said guilty, I was just totally in shock. I wanted to know what did they find me guilty on? And to me, it was nothing but a high class lynching. And I often tell people, two white men came and arrested me, three white men prosecuted me, a white judge sentenced me, and a white jury found me guilty. Nothing but a lynching. And everything that I ever believed in.
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Oprah Winfrey
Take your time.
- [24:04]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Everything that I believed in and was taught as a child left me. I just somehow wanted to protect my mom. I didn't quite know whether she understood that I had been found guilty of capital murder and what that meant, because in Alabama you can be found guilty and they have what they call a sentencing date later, about a week or two weeks later. And I didn't know did you fully understand that more than likely this prosecutor was seeking the death penalty? And I kept saying I need somehow to protect my mother. I kept asking Lester to somehow shield her from.
- [24:52]
Oprah Winfrey
Lester, your best friend who we'll talk about later?
- [24:55]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
- [24:55]
Oprah Winfrey
I think I have the best friend in the world until I read about your best friend. I have to say, there was something you said around page 65. But how could I be the same? I wondered who would I be when this was all over? Everything good was being taken away one small chunk at a time. Belief, family, truth, faith, justice. I wondered who I would be when this was all over. How could I be the same person? Would there be anything left after this trial? What if they actually found me guilty? What then? Nobody believed me. And some days it felt like the whole world, except for Lester and my mom, was conspiring against.
- [25:35]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. You know, I had taken a polygraph test and passed. And.
- [25:41]
Oprah Winfrey
And the polygraph test was not admitted, not admissible.
- [25:44]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And I'm saying.
- [25:44]
Oprah Winfrey
And the man who gave the polygraph test said, this guy is innocent. This guy?
- [25:48]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. FBI. Retired FBI agent. I never forget. The lieutenant asked him, how did he do? He said, if I could go by this polygraph test, I would take him out of this jail tonight. And she said, he just don't act like a killer. And she said, I've been here for 28 years. She said, he mind his own business and everything. So after trying to prove my innocence, I begged for true serum. I begged for hypnosis. I begged for anything that they was willing to give me to prove my innocence. And when I passed the polygraph test and the prosecution reneged on his words, saying, we could use it if. If I pass and if I failed it, he could use. Just sucked every ounce energy, every ounce of belief, everything out of me. If you've been taught that justice prevail and the truth will come to light. I didn't see being convicted. I thought it was meant then in the courtroom, I didn't know that I was going to spend 30 years later before the truth come out. I didn't have that.
- [26:55]
Oprah Winfrey
It's unbelievable. It's unfathomable. And so there were some dark nights of the soul. You went immediately onto death row.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
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Oprah Winfrey
And you stopped speaking. Literally three years, you did not speak?
- [27:09]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Did not speak. Every time an officer would say, what is your name? What is your Social Security number? What is this? I just wrote it down and gave it to him. And for three years, they thought I couldn't talk. It was as though God had Taken my vocal cord and I couldn't talk. Ms. Winfrey, when I tell you, I didn't even realize that I could have so much anger inside of me because of what had been taken from me. And I went in this hell hole. And I just knew.
- [27:44]
Oprah Winfrey
You had dreams for many nights. Killing MacGregor.
- [27:47]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'.
- [27:48]
Oprah Winfrey
Am.
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Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'. Am.
- [27:49]
Oprah Winfrey
Was he the prosecutor or the judge? He was a judge. He was the prosecutor.
- [27:53]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And he was so racist. He wrote a book and he had the idea that Hitler was right. He think the world should be permanently white. And all I wanted to do, I didn't want to come back and escape to be on the run. I wanted to choke the life out of him. And I wanted my face to be the last face that he saw.
- [28:16]
Oprah Winfrey
So you were consumed with that rage and anger for a long time?
- [28:19]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, ma'. Am. And once I seen that, I couldn't escape. Four years later, I heard a grown man laugh for the first time. And that's who I've always been. I think laughter is good for the soul. And when I heard that laugh, it brought me.
- [28:39]
Oprah Winfrey
But it wasn't the laughing at first. So three years where literally you go outside. I've been on death row and I've seen. I mean, it's when you think 5 by 7 cell, and even when you go outside, you're going outside in a cage.
- [29:00]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. And I could lay in my bed and touch the farther wall, which my arm is long, but five by seven is not big at all. And when you got the bed mounted to the wall and the toilet mounted to the wall, you have no room to do anything. And that's what I lived in for 30 years. And it's pure solitary confinement.
- [29:25]
Oprah Winfrey
You can't even see the other guys on the road. So you don't have other human touching you. Don't. Yeah. So for three years you went into that. What did you tell yourself? You know what, Mr. Hinton? I was trying to figure out what does time become? Are you counting the days? Is there like calendar time in your head? Do Tuesdays or Wednesdays or Thursdays or Fridays matter? If it's May or if it's December, does it matter?
- [29:52]
Anthony Ray Hinton
No. Time is nothing like it once were. In fact, time don't even exist because you're in a place where when they time is at an end, they gonna come get you and they're gonna strap you down in the chair or the garden.
- [30:11]
Oprah Winfrey
And as it turns out, your cell was just 30ft from the death chamber where men would have to take the walk down your hallway.
- [30:23]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
- [30:24]
Oprah Winfrey
With what, eight other cells?
- [30:26]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Eight.
- [30:27]
Oprah Winfrey
Eight other cells, top and bottom. And walked to the death chamber. And when they were killed, you could smell their flesh burn?
- [30:34]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Oh, yes.
- [30:35]
Oprah Winfrey
And in your time there, you witnessed 54. 54 men and one woman being executed. Executed.
- [30:44]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And of all the 54, I asked a guard, I said, officer, is there anything you can give me so I won't have to smell flush, burning flesh burning? And that officer looked at me and he said, no, there's nothing I can give you. And if there's a consolation to it, he said, you'll get used to it. And one day somebody will smell your flesh burning. And it was at that moment, that very moment, that I escaped up here. I had to. And I often tell people I kind of understand why. About loving men. Took their own life. If you can't escape up here in your head, it's over.
- [31:38]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. You can't survive.
- [31:39]
Anthony Ray Hinton
No.
- [31:39]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. If you're just dealing with that every day. The reality of being in this 5x7.
- [31:49]
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- [32:17]
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- [32:59]
Oprah Winfrey
so what broke it for you? It was someone crying in the night at four years ago.
- [33:03]
Anthony Ray Hinton
It was a man who had lost his mother.
- [33:05]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah, he was wailing, wailing, wailing, wailing.
- [33:10]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And this is a man that I had lived by for three years and never asked him his name, where he was from or anything. I wasn't there really to get to know anybody. I wasn't there to make friends. All I knew, I was there for something I didn't do. And when I heard this man crying at an early age, my mom had Taught me compassion. She said, no matter what one does in life, they still deserve compassion. And it was that compassion that I hollered through this brick wall. And I got up to the front of the door and I yelled out with my voice, and I said, hey, is something wrong over there? Took him a while to reply, and he finally said, I just got worried. My mother passed, and I told them that I was sorry to hear that other men was listening. They holler, hey, I'm sorry as well. And I told him a corny joke. And we kind of laughed just a little bit to try to break it. And I laid back down. And the next morning I realized my voice was back as well as my sense of humor. And I ain't looked back since. I used disappear to go wherever I wanted to go and made as many people I could laugh.
- [34:25]
Oprah Winfrey
And you say in the sun does shine, you say. I wondered why it is that the cries of another human being, whether it's a baby or a woman in grief or a man in pain, can touch us in ways we don't expect. I wasn't expecting to have my heart break that night. I wasn't expecting to end three years of silence. It was a revelation to realize that I wasn't the only man on death row. I was born with the same gift from God. We are all born with the impulse to reach out and lessen the suffering of another human being. It was a gift, and we each had a choice whether to use this gift or not. What I knew. When you're hanging at the end of your rope, does it really matter what color the hand is? It reaches up to help you. What I knew was that he loved his mother, just like I love my mother. And I could understand his love.
- [35:17]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And the fact that mine was still alive made me appreciate her more and made me understand his loss even more.
- [35:26]
Oprah Winfrey
And so somebody laughed. You told a joke. Yes, somebody laughed. You heard that laughter, and something about
- [35:31]
Anthony Ray Hinton
that laughed cracked you open.
- [35:34]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [35:35]
Anthony Ray Hinton
I always been one that. I love humor. I think that, as I said before, laughter's good for the soul. And I just try to make humor out of everything. Even the worst of the worst. I try to find something. Humor in it.
- [35:50]
Oprah Winfrey
So you had this. First of all, I think one of the things that saved you was your vivid imagination.
- [35:56]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes.
- [35:57]
Oprah Winfrey
Because when that officer said that to you about one day they will be smelling your own flesh, you learned then to go away in your own imagination. And you went to lots of places to see the Queen of England in your head.
- [36:12]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes. And I Often tell people, please don't ask me why a 29 year old black male wanted to go see Queen Elizabeth, but I did. But at the end of the day, I realized something. She was in jail just as I was. She was in a 758 room jail. Jail.
- [36:37]
Oprah Winfrey
And you were in a five by seven.
- [36:38]
Anthony Ray Hinton
I was in a five by seven. So we had something in common and I just wanted to escape and see how she was doing.
- [36:46]
Oprah Winfrey
That is so okay. I won't say crazy, but that sounds crazy to me.
- [36:52]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Well, here's the thing. When people ask me, I said, think about it. I've had the privilege to walk down England and enjoy the sights of the building. Everything England have to offer, she can't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.
- [37:08]
Oprah Winfrey
Since you've been out, you've been in
- [37:09]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Houston, I can't go in stores. I can go in stores and shop. They have to shut the stores down.
- [37:15]
Oprah Winfrey
But you went in your imagination.
- [37:16]
Anthony Ray Hinton
But in my imagination I went to see her. And because she was in prison, just as I was in prison and I wanted to give her some type of consolation that it's okay. You okay, you're gonna be okay. And once I visited her and I realized that I could travel in my mind and there was nothing the warden or anyone in the state of Alabama could do about it, I just kept traveling.
- [37:42]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [37:43]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And I traveled and I end up, you know, as to reading the book, I married Halle Berry in my mind for 15 years. And when I.
- [37:51]
Oprah Winfrey
You were married to Halle berry?
- [37:52]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Yes, for 15 long beautiful years. Halle Berry was one of the special wives. If there's a thing that's perfect, she didn't say nothing to me. Yes, dear. And okay, dear. And I said, well, I love the fact that she didn't spend any money. And so what I did was I didn't ever use my mind for garbage. In the 15 years that I was married to Halle Berry, not one time did I think of her as sexual. Anyway, I used her to cope through some lonely days. And that's just sitting there talking to her. And I had seen a few of her movies and I knew when she was married to her David Justin for the Yankees. And Yankees have always been my favorite team. And I just sit there and she had been through some rough time. And when I married her, 15 years was the best 15 years of her life as well as mine. And so I just used my mind, kept using my mind.
- [38:51]
Oprah Winfrey
And then you let her go for Sandra Bullock.
- [38:53]
Anthony Ray Hinton
I did. When I seen Sandra Bullock driving this bus, I'm thinking in my mind, I was on speed.
- [39:01]
Oprah Winfrey
Right.
- [39:01]
Anthony Ray Hinton
On speed. On speed, yes. If this woman can drive a bus like this, imagine what she could do with a real getaway car.
- [39:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And I'm not thinking, this is where I'm going to be the rest of my life. Now I'm back and I'm thinking about getting out of here. And I'm thinking, if I have to get out of here, somehow escape. Sonny Bullock could drive the getaway car. I hate.
- [39:21]
Oprah Winfrey
These are the games you play with yourself in your mind to get through the days. To get through the days. Because obviously if you saw her in Speed, there's TV on Death Row now.
- [39:31]
Anthony Ray Hinton
It was, but they had showed us the movie when I first seen her. Speed.
- [39:36]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [39:36]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And then after that, they started allowing her to purchase a tv.
- [39:42]
Oprah Winfrey
But in the first years, did you have a tv? Did you have nothing? You were just in a room all day long with nothing.
- [39:48]
Anthony Ray Hinton
With nothing but a Bible.
- [39:50]
Oprah Winfrey
A Bible.
- [39:51]
Anthony Ray Hinton
And when I got there, I took that Bible and throw it up under the bed.
- [39:54]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. You didn't touch the Bible for three years.
- [39:56]
Anthony Ray Hinton
Three years, yeah.
- [39:57]
Oprah Winfrey
Our conversation will continue in the next episode. You can listen by downloading part two. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation.
- [40:23]
Thank you for listening.
- [40:29]
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Anthony Ray Hinton
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