Super Soul Special: Anthony Ray Hinton, Part 2: Finding Life, Hope and Redemption on Death Row

Summary

Podcast Summary: Oprah’s Super Soul – Anthony Ray Hinton, Part 2: Finding Life, Hope and Redemption on Death Row

Date: April 22, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Anthony Ray Hinton

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Overview

In this heartfelt and deeply reflective episode, Oprah continues her conversation with Anthony Ray Hinton, a man who spent nearly 30 years on Alabama’s death row for a crime he did not commit. This is Part 2 of their interview, focusing on the transformative power of hope, imagination, friendship, forgiveness, and the search for redemption, even in circumstances of extreme injustice. Hinton recounts profound relationships and personal growth during his incarceration, the tragedy of losing his mother before his exoneration, and the challenge and joy of emerging into a changed world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding the Appeals Process on Death Row

• The Long Process: Hinton explains the slow progression of appeals in the death penalty system—appeals are heard every 4 years at the Alabama Criminal Court, and if denied, then to the state Supreme Court, which can take another 4-5 years.
  • Quote: “On death penalty cases, the Alabama Criminal Court appeal would rule every four years on your case…It takes them approximately four to five years before they rule.” – Hinton (02:46)
• As long as the appeals are active, an execution date can't be set, creating a strange sense of relief and limbo.

2. Psychological Survival: Imagination and Acceptance

• Imagination as Escape: Hinton talks about how he used his imagination to survive, recreating championship games and tournaments in his mind.
  • Quote: “I started enjoying life. I started playing basketball. I played with the Knicks... In my mind, I won five times Wilmington, grand slam.” – Hinton (03:51)
• Letting Go: He shares the necessity of accepting the new reality and relinquishing his past life to psychologically survive prison.

3. Forging Friendships & Challenging Hate

• Unexpected Bonds: Hinton describes becoming friends with Henry, a fellow death row inmate and son of a KKK grand wizard, who was sentenced for lynching a Black teenager.
• Compassion Beyond Judgment: Hinton chose not to judge or even ask Henry if he was guilty, given his own experience with wrongful accusation.
  • Quote: “I was there on death row for something I know I didn’t do. So I couldn’t just judge by him being guilty.” – Hinton (07:50)
• Effects of Death Row: The shared suffering of death row erased racial boundaries, with men supporting one another regardless of background.
  • Quote: “Death row is the only place that I ever been where I didn’t never witness racism … We all was there to die.” – Hinton (08:48)

4. The Book Club: Literacy and Liberation

• Creating a Book Club: Hinton started a book club for his fellow inmates to open their minds; he fought for access and emphasized the power of literature to transport and transcend prison walls.
• Transforming Lives: Even Klan members participated, reading authors like James Baldwin and Harper Lee.
  • Quote: “I knew that books would open up your mind and make you be in places that you never thought you could be.” – Hinton (10:05)
  • Quote: “I had two of [the Klan] in there on your book club reading James Baldwin.” – Oprah (11:29)
• To Kill a Mockingbird: The book took on particular personal resonance for Hinton, embodying the injustice he faced.

5. Transforming Hatred: Henry’s Redemption

• Last Words of Love: Henry, once taught to hate, died acknowledging that love and respect came from those he was taught to despise.

  • Quote: “The very people that they taught me to hate are the very people that taught me how to love. And tonight, as I leave this world, I leave this world knowing what love feel like.” – Henry via Hinton (13:41)

• Hinton’s Reflection: “If we can teach people to hate, we should be able to teach them to love. Yeah. And I fought society. …Where was this village when this young boy was being taught to hate?” (15:13)

6. Lessons Learned from Death Row

• Core Teachings: Hinton learned to choose love over hate, to help rather than harm, and to recognize the unpredictability and preciousness of life.
  • Quote: “Death Row taught me … no matter where we are, we still can love and we still can help one another.” – Hinton (15:58)

7. The Power of Friendship: Lester’s Loyalty

• Unbroken Support: His childhood friend Lester visited every week for 30 years, a gesture Hinton credits with preserving his sanity and dignity.
  • Quote: “He didn’t want me to feel alone. …It keeps the guards from beating you and whooping you because they know you got somebody going to come see you…Lester’s godsend.” (19:22)

8. The Greatest Loss: His Mother

• Unbearable Grief: The most profound loss was not having his mother see him exonerated, nor being able to say goodbye. Her death nearly broke him.

  • Quote: “The night I found out that my mom had died, I really didn’t give a damn. Will I live? Because I truly believe that my mom died of a broken heart.” – Hinton (20:49)

• Moment of Despair: Considered suicide, but was “visited” by the memory of his mother encouraging him to persevere.

  • Quote: “It was as though my mom came in and cell and stayed in my ear all night long. And I could hear her saying, I did not bring you up to be a quitter.” (21:34)

9. The Relentless Fight for Justice

• Blatant Injustice: Despite new forensic evidence and advocacy by Bryan Stevenson, Alabama refused to reopen his case until the Supreme Court intervened.

  • Quote: “And to this day, no one in the state of Alabama have had the decency to apologize to me.” – Hinton (28:08)

• Refusing to Plea: Hinton declined a deal for life without parole, maintaining his innocence.

  • Quote: “Life without parole is for guilty people. I’d rather die for something that …I didn’t do than to stay in prison for the rest of my life. That’s not a life.” (26:41)

10. Freedom and an Altered World

• First Moments Free: The simplest experiences—feeling rain, visiting his mother’s grave, encounters with modern technology—were overwhelming and beautiful.

  • Quote: “I could just stayed in the rain the whole day if I could have. …I just love the feel of it. I don’t care about the clothes. I just love to feel. It’s so cool and refreshing. And it’s the only thing I know that … comes from God.” (31:07)

• Encountering Change: Amused and bewildered by GPS voices, credit cards, cell phones, and Amazon Prime, he realized the world had moved on.

  • Quote: “He cranks the car up. …this white lady come on. She said, one tenth of a mile turn right, and I jumped. I said, what the hell? …He said, this is a GPS track.” (32:45)

11. Living with Loss & Ongoing Healing

• Grieving His Mother: The ache of losing his mother persists, but he finds solace in feeling her presence, pride, and guidance in his life after release.
  • Quote: “There’s nothing in this world that I feel I lost more than those years with her.” (37:01)
  • Quote: “There’s not a day or there’s not a night now even that you don’t pull out her picture and say, good night, Mama.” – Oprah (38:03)

12. Closure

• Oprah closes with admiration for Hinton’s strength and character, remarking on the hope and light emanating from his story and the continued inspiration he brings others.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Surviving Death Row:
  • “You have to… let it go because you cannot live that life anymore.” – Hinton (03:51)
• On Judging Others in Prison:
  • “If you did it, that’s between you and your God. All I knew I was there for something I didn’t do.” – Hinton (08:03)
• On Transforming Hate:
  • “The very people that they taught me to hate are the very people that taught me how to love. And tonight… I leave this world knowing what love feel like.” – Henry via Hinton (13:41)
• On Refusing a False Plea:
  • “Life without parole is for guilty people. …This is one rock I didn’t throw. Therefore I could never stand up and say I throwed this rock when I didn’t.” – Hinton (26:41)
• On the Value of Friendship:
  • “All my life I thought I knew what friendship meant…but Lester didn’t show me what it meant. Lester didn’t ask me how it was done. He came to see how it was doing.” – Hinton (17:27)
• On Losing His Mother:
  • “I didn’t get to say goodbye. …They took more than just 30 years for me.” – Hinton (37:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:39] – Appeals process and the psychological cost
• [03:33] – Letting go of the past to survive
• [04:27] – Imagination as a lifeline
• [05:39] – Meeting and befriending Henry, the son of a KKK leader
• [09:33] – Creating a book club on death row
• [13:41] – Henry’s transformation through love
• [15:12] – Lessons death row taught Hinton
• [17:03] – The unwavering loyalty of Lester
• [20:49] – The grief of losing his mother
• [26:41] – Refusing a false confession for freedom
• [28:10] – The moment of exoneration
• [31:07] – Experiencing freedom and rain
• [32:45] – Reentering a changed world
• [37:01] – Reflections on lost time and healing

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Memorable Moments

• Champion of Mind: Hinton winning “five Wimbledons” and deciding tight baseball games in his imagination to stave off hopelessness.
• Book Club Diplomacy: Klan members reading James Baldwin with Black inmates.
• First Rain: A freed Hinton standing in the rain after thirty years inside.
• GPS Shock: Hinton’s astonishment the first time he hears a GPS voice, thinking someone’s in the car.
• Final Words of a “Changed” Man: Henry’s execution night admission that love conquered his lifelong hate.

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Conclusion

This episode is a profound meditation on resilience, the enduring power of imagination and love, and the critical need for justice reform. Hinton’s journey demonstrates not only the capacity for personal redemption but also the hope for change in others—even in the most divisive and hate-filled circumstances. Oprah's compassionate, probing questions bring forward intimate details—making Hinton’s hard-won wisdom a gift to every listener.

Transcript

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[Ray Hinton]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

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[Ray Hinton]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

in celebration of Black History Month, Hyundai is proud to support the own network have you ever thought about your car personality? What's your vibe? Do you like the classic fully gas powered engine? Are you a best of both worlds type, driving on battery power while keeping gas on reserve? Or are you more inclined to choose a convenient hybrid ride? Whichever your vibe, there's a Hyundai Tucson to match and a powertrain to get you there. OK Hyundai. Visit HyundaiUSA.com to learn more about the 2023 Hyundai Tucson. The 2023 Tucson Plug In Hybrid is only sold in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, Maryland, New J, New York, Oregon, Rhode island and Vermont. I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Welcome to Part two of our conversation. So your case. Those of you who are going to read the Sun Does Shine, you'll see that you tried to appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal. And it's like they had decided that no matter what, they were going to keep you behind bars.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. Yeah, a lot of people don't understand the justice system.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Ray Hinton]

In the appeal process they ask you what takes so long. And on death penalty cases, the Alabama Criminal Court appeal would rule every four years on your case. And once they rule either for you against you, if they rule against you, they Send it to the Alabama Supreme Court. It takes them approximately four to five years before they rule.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But at least is there some relief for as long as you are appealing, at least you know you can't be fried.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ray Hinton]

At least you know that that is the. That is the desert of it. Because they cannot set you a date. They cannot give you a date as

[Oprah Winfrey]

long as you appeal.

[Ray Hinton]

As long as you're appealing it. Once you appeal, it's completely exhausted. It's when the state of Alabama goes to the Alabama Supreme Court.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And actually, how often were you thinking about. Because I don't know how you survive every day thinking, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. Is there a point where you have to let that go?

[Ray Hinton]

I did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And resign yourself, just surrender to whatever is happening now?

[Ray Hinton]

I did. You have to. First and foremost, you have to. The life that you used to, you have to let it go because you cannot live that life anymore. And so somehow you got to get that out of your brain. And the fact that you have an appeal process, you have to learn to adjust and learn. Learned that lawyer talk with that. And so what I did was I started enjoying life. I started playing basketball. I played with the Knicks. They won championship. I played Wilmington. In my mind, I won five time. Wilmington, grand slam.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Had you ever played. You played basketball before when you were out? Had you played tennis before you were out? So all these things. So you went to Wimbledon in your mind, you won Wimbledon?

[Ray Hinton]

I won it five times.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No need to go if you're not going. You won it five times in your mind?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. And, you know, it wasn't until Mr. Brunson, he had invited me over to his private island, and me and him played a game of tennis. And he said, ray, you played tennis on death row? I said, yes, sir. I wanted Wilmington. 5 time on death row. And he looked at me, he said, you do have a sense of humor. But I did play tennis before I went. And in my mind, everything I did, I was pretty good in sports, and I just kept going.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And this would occupy you for hours?

[Ray Hinton]

Hours. Oh, yes, hours.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Days and days and hours, yes.

[Ray Hinton]

And during baseball season, the Yankees, we was tired. We needed a home run. Who was at the bat? I was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so in your imagination, you would just walk through the whole game?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Every inning.

[Ray Hinton]

Every inning. I would call timeout, and I would go up there and talk to the pitcher, and I would say, coach, that

[Oprah Winfrey]

first night when there was somebody crying on death row, and then you ended up making a joke and recognizing that they lost their mom and had compassion. And then the men started speaking to each other for the first time. Right. And then you later found out that one of the people that you had been speaking to and had befriended was a man named Henry.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you tell me about Henry?

[Ray Hinton]

Well, Henry was a Ku Klux Klansman son. His daddy was a grand wizard in the Klans organization. And as I got to learn the story, Henry's father was upset that a black man had got found not guilty in a murder trial. And he ordered him to go out and kill the first black man that they came across. And they came across a 19 year old, I think it was 19. And they befriended him, got him somehow, tricked him in the car and they hung him and cut his genitals off. And I. When he was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is in 1980 something, right?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ray Hinton]

And so. But when Henry came to death row,

[Oprah Winfrey]

he was the first white man convicted.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. Of a lynching.

[Oprah Winfrey]

A lynching in 85 years.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. Yes. And as I got to know Henry and realized I didn't know who I was talking to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you all are just voices in the day and night because nobody can see anybody on the row.

[Ray Hinton]

Put you in a little cage and that's it. You got a wall between you and wall between you and got matched wire in front of you and that's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But after a while you get to know that this voice coming from here and you identify the names and the voices.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. And what I learned about Henry is that Henry had been taught to hate all his life. And myself along with some other blacks, we didn't judge Henry because everybody was therefore accused of killing someone. And so Henry and I became friends and I kept wondering, was it difficult

[Oprah Winfrey]

to become friends with a man who you knew had been accused and found guilty? Not just accused, but is on death row for lynching a young black man. It was not.

[Ray Hinton]

It was not.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why was it not?

[Ray Hinton]

It was not because I personally didn't know had Henry done that. I was there on death row for something I know I didn't do. So I couldn't just judge by him being guilty. And I never did ask him, did you do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He didn't.

[Ray Hinton]

I never did ask him that. I just feel that wasn't my business. And if you did it, that's between you and your God. All I knew I was there for something I didn't do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't it true that that's sort of the code of respect on the road that nobody asked anybody did you really do it.

[Ray Hinton]

And not only that, with you having so many prosecution that will come back and ask somebody to snitch and say they said something, it's best you don't say nothing. And so I didn't ask Henry. Well, did he did it. I really got to know Henry for Henry. And Henry had.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wasn't there a point where Henry said my mom and my ma and PA were wrong?

[Ray Hinton]

They were wrong, yes. On the night of his execution, we had told him about love and respect for one another. And let me say before I end this, death row is the only place that I ever been where I didn't never witness racism. And I often thought about that. Why is it that I never witnessed racism here? It's because all of us had the same sentence. Sentence to death. We went to bed with the death sentence over our head. We woke up with a death sentence. We all wore the same clothes, the same tennis shoes, the same whatever. We all ate the same thing. So it wasn't no different. It wasn't no need to be jealous. It wasn't no need to be racist. We all was there to die. And we all had to become and somehow become each other support system.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So much so that you created a book club.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm very proud of my book club.

[Ray Hinton]

I'm very proud of mine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You had your own book club. What gave you the idea for the book club? The fact that you were able to, in your own mind, go anywhere you wanted to. Right. And you wanted those men to be able to have the same experience of traveling the world, expanding the way they see themselves in the world. And you could do it in your own mind, but you thought books would help them do it.

[Ray Hinton]

Absolutely. And not only that, I felt that society had let them down. I never forget I used to ask, what grade did you drop out of school, if you don't mind me asking? Everyone was the seventh and eighth grade. And I'm saying, how did y' all drop out at the seventh and eighth grade? If I missed the day, the teacher would find my mama and say, anthony didn't come to school. Did you know it? And most all the answer was, man, didn't nobody really care about going to school. They didn't care whether we came or not. So I dropped out. So I felt that society had let them down in that regard. They didn't make them go to school, therefore they didn't learn. And so I knew that books would open up your mind and make you be in places that you never thought you could be. And so I first had to ask the warden about a book club. And I goes up there and I asked him about. He said, well, what's in it for you? I see nothing in it for me. I said, warden, wouldn't you prefer these men to be reading a book and having their time spent on something else then to be thinking about and spitting out on your officer and throwing feces out on him? Wouldn't it be better if we could just read a book? And he said, let me think about it. He thought about it, sent me word that we could. And I chose James Baldwin. And I had read James Baldwin before.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you have the white racist KKK people.

[Ray Hinton]

I had two of them in there

[Oprah Winfrey]

on your book club reading James Baldwin.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I heard you all read James Baldwin.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Go tell it on the mountain.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes, I loved James Baldwin. But I also read other books like your blues Ain't like Mine. I read to Killer Mockingbird and not because. But the Killer Mockingbird was me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, exactly.

[Ray Hinton]

You were Tom. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ray Hinton]

And people said, well, how could you read it? I said, gave and gave me a better sight why I was there. I said, To Kill a Mockingbird is one of the south most embraced book. But that book is true. I was Tommy. I really was Tommy. If you read the book. And so this particular book, I wanted Henry to read it and see what he would really think about his father. I really wanted Henry to think about how black men and women in this country have paved ways and we are authors and read about them. Some. And Henry had a profound respect for

[Oprah Winfrey]

To Kill a Mockingbird. You wrote that we are all slowly dying from our own fear, our minds killing us quicker than the state of Alabama ever could.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why you wanted them to have the book. Yes. Men would do all kinds of crazy things rather than spend another night with their own thoughts. Bring in the books, I thought. Let every man on the row have a week away. Inside the world of a book. I knew if the mind could open, the heart would follow. It had happened to Henry. Look at him sitting here in a locker room with five black men who had nothing to lose. He'd been taught to hate us and fear us so much that he had thought it was in his right to go and find a teenage boy and beat and stab and lynch him just because of the color of his skin. I had no anger toward Henry. He had been taught to fear blacks. He had been trained to hate. Death Row had been good for Henry. Death Row had saved his soul. Death Row had taught him that his hate was wrong.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you know, he died knowing that

[Ray Hinton]

he died and what I loved on the night of his execution. They ask you two things. What you want for your last meal? And do you have anything you want to say? And I was told that Henry said, all of my life, my father, my mother, my community taught me to hate. The very people that they taught me to hate are the very people that taught me how to love. And tonight, as I leave this world, I leave this world knowing what love feel like.

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[Ray Hinton]

And I often say that if we can teach people to hate, we should be able to teach them to love. Yeah. And I fought society. I fought this. It take a village to raise a child. And I often ask, where was this village when this young boy was being taught to hate? What was this village when he needed them the most? And so that book club and the fact that we treated Henry no different, I really believe Henry left this world a better man than he came in.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you've been out now, what, two years, three years? Death Row taught Henry to love. What did it teach you?

[Ray Hinton]

Death Row taught me that either you love or you hate. Death Row taught me you either help or you harm. Death Row taught me you never know the moment, the second your life will change forever. And you can't see it coming. You don't know when it's coming. And so Death Row taught me, no matter where we are, we still can love and we still can help one another. And although all of us was there together, we didn't know each other, but we came together as a bunch of men that the world Said that the world would be better if we wasn't in it. And I tried to bring to them that no matter where we are, we can make this the home. It may not be where we want to be, it may not be what some of us should be, but let's love one another and let's do what we can for one another.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is remarkable in this story, the sun does shine, is that your friend Lester, you all were friends who had been friends since you were what, four years old? Four years old.

[Ray Hinton]

I was four. And I was six.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Four and six. That your friend Lester, he was in that courtroom the day you were sentenced to death, and he came to visit you in. In prison every single week without fail.

[Ray Hinton]

Didn't ask for anything. He.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For 30 years, yes.

[Ray Hinton]

They don't make him like that anymore. They don't come like that anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Where he'd have to drive for hours.

[Ray Hinton]

It was, if I'm not mistaken, it's about 268 miles or better one way. And he was working 11 to 7. He would get off on a Friday and drive all the way. And I would tell him, listen, you don't work all night. Don't come down here. But at 9:15, he was there. Clockwork, they would roll my door and revisit. And I knew who it was. Lester made me. If this make any sense to anybody. All my life I thought I knew what friendship meant, but Lester didn't show me what it meant. Lester didn't ask me how it was done. He came to see how it was doing. Lester didn't say write me. He always said, call me. And no matter what the prison would allow us to have, Lester didn't want me to ask anyone but him. And that way he knew that I would get it. And so Lester just showed me what real friendship is all about. And he didn't come expecting anything because none of us could really say, I would be here where I am today. And so I knew he did it out of love and the friendship that we have always had for one another. Lester and I have had some close call, walking from school and having to duck in the woods and all kinds of things.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And white men would drive by, and you were young boys, you'd go jump in the ditch because. Illegal just to be on the road, or. Certainly not illegal, but dangerous?

[Ray Hinton]

Oh, very dangerous.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Dangerous to be two black boys on a road.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Regardless of where you were going or where you'd come from.

[Ray Hinton]

Absolutely. And Lester, you know, just was a godsend. He didn't want me to Feel alone. And I can't even begin to express to people how important that is when you is confined in a cell to know that you have someone that care about you that much to come see you. And not only that, it keeps the guards from beating you and whooping you because they know you got somebody going to come see you. And something had been wrong with me. Lester was going to say, how did Ray get those scratches and bruises on his face? Well, I'm going to go and see a lawyer. And so Lester was just, oh, Lester's godsend. And I often tell him, even when we was in our mother womb, God knew you would be my ram in the bush. And so he just everything to me. And I love him as a friend. I love him as a brother. And I just wish the world, everybody could have a friend like Lester.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Like Lester, yes. The night that broke you, that you thought for a moment you weren't going to recover from, was when they came to tell you that your mother had died. And you know, I know for you, and certainly as I read the book, one of the deepest sorrows is that your mother didn't get to see you free. And that the last time she saw you, and every time she heard your voice, it said, son, when are you coming home? Yes, when are you coming home?

[Ray Hinton]

She would ask me that. And I lied to her every time she asked me, mama, they working on it. They just gonna take some time. And at some point, I didn't know what my mother trying to protect me. I knew I was trying to protect her in the truth. And I couldn't say, mama, next year or next month. And the night I found out that my mom had died, I really didn't give a damn. Will I live? Because I truly believe that my mom died of a broken heart.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Ray Hinton]

And I guess in some way I feel like she. I often say she got tired of waiting and she left this world. And that night I had called Mr. Stevenson and I told Mr. Stevenson, I said, I don't give a damn about this case. I said, my mom gone, and I don't see myself in this world without my mom. And without saying thank you, without saying I appreciate it, I just hung up. And that night, as I tried to sleep, it was as though my mom came in and cell and stayed in my ear all night long. And I could hear her saying, I did not bring you up to be a quitter. I did not bring you up to stop. I want you to fight. I taught you to fight when you have to fight. And it Wasn't until my mom. I could hear my mom saying, I'm disappointed in you. Because every baseball game, every thing I was in, my mom was my biggest cheerleader. And when I would strike out, she was there to say, you hit it the next time. And my mom would always hug me and tell me how good and how proud she was of me. And that night, I could hear my mom telling me that she was disappointed me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you had been thinking about killing yourself. You were thinking about killing yourself.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

After finding out that she had died.

[Ray Hinton]

And early that morning, I called Mr. Stevenson and I said, Mr. Stevenson, I want to apologize for hanging up, but I had a moment of weakness. I want you to give the state of Alabama all the hell you can give her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

By that time, Bryan Stevenson had already been on your case for how many years?

[Ray Hinton]

About five or six, I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The twists and turns. And even Bryan Stevenson on the case, trying, trying, pushing, pushing. And everybody can see, see that there's been a miscarriage of justice here. Still. The state of Alabama would not.

[Ray Hinton]

No. Bryan Stevenson went out and got the

[Oprah Winfrey]

best experts who said those bullets could not possibly been fired from that gun.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And they still would not do anything, would not reopen the case. At that point, though, were you ready to give up? Because once you've got the ballistics experts, you got the new FBI, and it's almost, what it's over 20 years later, they find the gun. First they lost the gun, then accused Bryan Stevenson of stealing the gun.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They find the gun, and they realize beyond a shadow of a doubt those bullets could not have come from the gun and that the whole thing was a sham.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They still refused to reopen the case. Yes.

[Ray Hinton]

And it took the United States Supreme Court, I never will forget. He came down to the prison. He said, ray, the judges in Alabama is not going to do the right thing. And he said, I'm going to have to take this case to the United States Supreme Court. But he said, I need to tell you something. And he said, if they rule against you, the state of Alabama will execute you within two years. And believe it or not, hearing that was somewhat of a relief because it could be over. I was tired of sitting there. I was tired of being in this cage. And I said, Mr. Stevenson, file my case.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And at one point there was a lawyer who had offered you the opportunity

[Ray Hinton]

to take a life without parole.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Life without parole?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you said, I don't want life without parole.

[Ray Hinton]

I said, life without parole is for guilty people. I said, I'm finna tell you something that you may not understand. I said, At 12 years old, I never will forget this. My mom told me, she said, if you man enough to bend down and pick up a rock and if you man enough to throw that rock, always be man enough to say, I throwed that rock. I said, this is one rock I didn't throw. Therefore I could never stand up and say I throwed this rock when I didn't. And I said, and since you don't believe in me, I have no choice but to fire you. But he was trying to get me a life without parole. And I said, life without parole is for guilty people. I'd rather die for something that destroyed state of Alabama know that I didn't do than to stay in prison for the rest of my life. That's not a life. And so I'd rather not be in this world if so be it. And that's what I don't do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Finally, after Bryan Stevenson and the equal justice initiative taking on this case 16 years later, after they took on the case, you finally are released and after he goes to the Supreme Court?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And he was just asking the Supreme Court to review it?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And in their review, they made a decision?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What did you feel like that day?

[Ray Hinton]

Oh, we had came up for a hearing. He was in New York and one of the lawyers had just left and he came back real quick. He said, you need to call Bryant. And I called Mr. Stevenson. And Mr. Stevenson was telling me, ray, you not gonna believe this. And I sat down and he told me. He said, ray, the United States supreme court have ruled nine to zero in your favor. Ray, you going home? I said, Mr. Stevenson, no use. This is April Fool. Then I thought about who Bryan Stevenson was. He not like a jokester. And I took the phone away from him and I cried like a baby right there in front of all the other guys, inmates that I didn't know. And I got back on the phone and I said. When? He said, I'm headed back to Birmingham and I can't tell you exactly, but I'm gonna find out and we'll know. And he said, I'm gonna talk to the judge. And he did. And the judge wanted to keep me in one day longer. He said, no, I want him out as soon as possible. And I got out on Good Friday and hadn't been to, like, a regular church in 30 years. And that Sunday I was able to go to my first Easter service. And every Good Friday is my anniversary. And so had it not been for Bryan Stevenson, God sending me his best attorney, I wouldn't be sitting here. I wouldn't be in this world. The state of Alabama knew that I was not the person they knew that gun didn't match. And to this day, no one in the state of Alabama have had the decency to apologize to me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Would it mean something if they did?

[Ray Hinton]

It would. For this reason, it matters to me that the victim family think that I'm still the person that killed their loved one. I think they deserve truth as well. And it would mean. To mean that for a society that believe in the death penalty, we do send innocent men and women to death row. And just to hear the authority, the system, say we made a mistake would mean a lot to me. And it won't give me back what I lost. But it would mean a great deal to me for them to say we're sorry, we made a mistake, and we promise that we will not do this again.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So early on, you talked about when you'd been held for a year and a half before trial and thinking that you were going to get out after the trial, that you just wanted to smell something other than the sweat and the musk and the mold and that you just wanted to be able to feel some rain on your face and you wanted to be able to see. See the sunshine. What was it like once you finally were released 30 years later, you felt rain on your face for the first time.

[Ray Hinton]

Oh, it was wonderful. I mean, I could just stayed in the rain the whole day if I could have. And everybody kept saying, get out of the rain, you get sick. I said, I haven't had rain on my body for 30 years. And my little niece was with me, and she pops her little umbrella, and she said, come on, Uncle Ray, get up on the umbrella with me. And I said, no, I'm going to walk in the rain. And she said, uncle Ray, it's not natural for anybody to walk in the rain the way you do. And I looked at her and I said, you know, for 30 years, not a drop of rain was allowed to fall on my body. I said, so let me enjoy this rain. And to this day, I still walk in the rain as though I just came out of it yesterday. I just love the feel of it. I don't care about the clothes. I just love to feel. It's so cool and refreshing. And it's the only thing I know that having been intimidated, it comes from God. And so I just love it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I can't imagine I was trying to think about 1989. We didn't even have those. I think we just started those big brick cell phones, right? Oh, really? The big. The cell phones that look like bricks.

[Ray Hinton]

Oh, okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Were they still dialing? Were they still dialing? Your mama probably still had a dial phone. Phone on the wall in the kitchen. Phone on the wall in the kitchen.

[Ray Hinton]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So when you come out and it's cell phones and it's social media, after all, it's Lester, your friend who's been there every single week, who picks you up in prison. And you come out and you're in Lester's car.

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. He asked me where you where the first place you wanted to go. And I really believed. Lester thought I was gonna say, let's go get something to eat. Cause I always complain about the food. But I said, I want you to take me where they laid my mother's body. I said, I know she's not there, but I want to just see where they laid her body. And he said, okay. I put on the seatbelt, he put on his. And he cranks the car up. And I'm seeing him messing with the radio dial. I'm thinking he trying to find a radio station. He put it in drive. And we go down the road, and about a little distant, this white lady come on. She said, one tenth of a mile turned right, and I jumped. I said, what the hell? And he laughing now. Cause I'm thinking a white woman is in the back. And I know then, but two of us get in this car and I'm afraid to look back and I'm saying, white lady back there. And he laughing. So he, I said lady. And he can't take it no longer. He pulls over to the sides of the road and he said, this is a GPS track. I said, what is that? I said, you heard the white lady. He said, she's in here. I said, how'd she get in there? I'm thinking a real human being is working. They don't open up the passenger side and somehow she can lay in there or whatever until you know something. And he said, explain it to me, go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He's laying down under the seat telling you which way to go.

[Ray Hinton]

And he said, all you have to do is punch in the address and she'll tell you exactly how to go and where to turn and everything. And I said, you mean to tell me you don't have to stop at the Philly station?

[Oprah Winfrey]

You don't stop at the station and

[Ray Hinton]

get the directional More.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No more.

[Ray Hinton]

And it made me realize I've been locked up a long time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Ray Hinton]

I don't say it. I realize I've been locked up a long time. The world have changed. They had Walmart and I'm saying this is a one stop place, you know

[Oprah Winfrey]

Walmart and Amazon Prime.

[Ray Hinton]

It's amazing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What have been the other incredible discoveries for you?

[Ray Hinton]

The infrastructure where I used to live, it's no longer exist. They don't made an interstate through there. You can actually come from out of Atlanta all the way into Memphis, Tennessee without stopping. And it's to me modern technology and the infrastructure, how it have changed. And you don't see self service filling station anymore where people come out and pump your gas or you have these things now called credit cards and everything. That's a swipe and you're gone. And when I first got home, I stayed froze. Lester and I went to a restaurant and I had some sweet tea in my hand and I didn't see him handing lady any money. And I'm so thinking that I'm going back to jail. You didn't pay, I don't have any money. And he forgot and he turned around and he realized that he hadn't explained this to me. He said, come on. I said, I don't have any money to pay for my tea. He said, I paid for it already. I said, you didn't get it later? No money I'm watching you. And he said. I'm sorry. He said, this is a credit card. I swiped it in. It's paid for.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Ray Hinton]

So life, all of that, you know, happened Cell phones?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, all of it.

[Ray Hinton]

And to this day, I'm still not familiar with the cell phone. I can do certain things I don't know how to download. I can email you back, I can text you back, I can take a picture, but that's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you can talk?

[Ray Hinton]

Oh, yeah, I can talk. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's good. You're good to go.

[Ray Hinton]

But now if you call me and say, Mr. Stevenson, one of you gonna have to hang up. Cause I don't know how to put you on hold and go back and get him. And so people keep trying and I get it confused and I see it's okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're doing just fine. You really are doing just fine.

[Ray Hinton]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you spend a lot of time thinking about what you lost?

[Ray Hinton]

I do sometime. And the greatest of it all is the years that I lost with my mother. There's nothing in this world that I feel I lost more than those years with her. Again, you have to know where I come from in our life, but my mom have always been there for me. And I would just love to have been there to give her some cold water or make her some soup and feed it to her like she would do me if I was sick. And I didn't get the opportunity. But get me more than anything I didn't get. I didn't get to say goodbye. So they took more than just 30 years for me. And I could never ever get that out of my mind. That I didn't say goodbye like my other brothers and sisters did. And I feel that I was cheated. But

[Oprah Winfrey]

you said that there's not a day or there's not a night now even that you don't pull out her picture and say, good night, Mama. Do you feel the presence of her with you now?

[Ray Hinton]

I do sometimes I really feel when I have got up and made a speech or something, it's like I can hear her saying, I'm proud of you. You've done good. And I think the thing that my mom always have spoiled me. Whenever I did something good, got an A or whatever, she would always cook me a nice peach cobbler, BlackBerry pie. And I don't have nobody to do that. So I just miss my mom in a way that I had a great relationship with her. And I couldn't tell you anyone I respect more than I did. My mother was always, yes, Ma', am and no ma' am and whatever she said, I obeyed her because she gave me her all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I feel like she's still giving it to you. I feel like that she's guiding you in places that you never even imagined. Even you, who's been to see the Queen of England?

[Ray Hinton]

Yes. Oh yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's been my pleasure and my honor to speak to you.

[Ray Hinton]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're a good man.

[Ray Hinton]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Good man. Thank you.

[Ray Hinton]

Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The sun does shine. How I found life and freedom on Death Row.

[Ray Hinton]

Beautiful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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