Super Soul Special: Brian Grazer: The Secret to a Bigger Life

Summary

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Oprah's Super Soul Special: Brian Grazer – The Secret to a Bigger Life

Original Air Date: September 24, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode of Oprah’s Super Soul, Oprah Winfrey sits down with Academy Award-winning producer Brian Grazer to explore the power of curiosity as detailed in his book, A Curious Mind: The Secret to a Bigger Life. Grazer attributes much of his creative and personal success to a lifelong practice of curiosity which he has formalized into “curiosity conversations” with a diverse array of individuals. Through candid discussion, the episode unpacks how curiosity fosters human connection, creativity, courage, and ultimately a more fulfilling life.
Note: This summary omits all commercial breaks and non-content sections.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Transformative Power of Curiosity

• Defining Curiosity as Connection
  • Oprah and Brian discuss how curiosity, often seen as an abstract trait, is in fact the driver behind meaningful human connection.
    • "I just thought I was sitting talking to people every day because I was interested in them. I didn't think that was particularly a curious thing… I was interested in having a human connection, which is what you say curiosity absolutely brings." — Oprah (03:49)
    • "Curiosity is a human connection." — Brian (04:13)
• Curiosity as Spiritual Practice
  • Oprah asks if curiosity is Brian’s spiritual practice. Brian affirms, explaining how it connects him to truth and essence in people.
    • “When I'm in the zone, it does get me into the place of truth within the person… that's the most satisfying feeling.” — Brian (04:52)
    • “That's what spirituality really is, is looking for the truth and the essence of whatever a thing or person is.” — Oprah (05:07)

The Art of Asking Questions over Seeking Answers

• Brian explains that the magic is in the questions rather than the answers.
  • “The secret to life is not in the answers, but in the questions.” — Brian (05:18)
  • He describes the evolution of better questions in the context of real human interaction, especially in those “biochemical moments” of connection (05:39).
  • Oprah relates, reflecting on her own interviewing style and its roots in curiosity.

Formative Childhood Experiences

• Brian credits his grandmother for nurturing his curiosity and self-worth, even when he struggled academically.
  • "She liked all the questions I asked and would always give me an answer… she just had this sustained belief in me and validated me for the question." — Brian (06:55)
  • His grandmother didn’t use the word “curiosity” but always praised his questions.

Early Career—Persistence and Initiative

• Grazer shares the story of landing his first job at Warner Brothers by acting on overheard information (08:01), demonstrating curiosity and boldness.
• He then leverages those opportunities by creating his own rules—for example, insisting on personally delivering documents to celebrities, which allowed him to build relationships and learn.
  • "I have to hand it to them directly." — Brian (09:55)
  • Gained access to a high-profile office, learning the language and culture of show business (10:00–11:07).

The Democratizing Nature of Ideas

• Lou Wasserman’s foundational advice: “Put the pencil to the paper and it’s worth more than it is at separate parts.”
  • Grazer interpreted this as the importance of bringing ideas to life and “owning your own ideas.”
  • "Anyone can put the pencil on the paper…even though I never thought of myself as a writer, I could just dig stuff out of my imagination.” — Brian (12:52–13:39)
• Out of this philosophy was born the film Splash.

Curiosity as a Practice and Force in Life

• Grazer discusses how curiosity expanded his world beyond his modest background and gave him the tools to succeed in Hollywood and in life.
  • “It's been a powerful force in my life.” — Brian (15:54)
• Oprah notes Grazer’s description of curiosity as “a spark for creativity and inspiration, a way of motivating yourself, a tool for independence and self-confidence, the key to storytelling, and as a form of courage.” (16:37)

The Power of Curiosity for Ordinary People

• Curiosity is depicted as a quiet but real power, accessible to all.
  • "It's power for people who don't have superpowers." — Oprah (17:52)
  • “I always felt like I had as much to offer as they did… I can, you know, kind of stand toe to toe because I met Jonas Salk and…came to the table with other things that I just created myself.” — Brian (18:04)
• Oprah and Brian encourage listeners to view everyday encounters as opportunities for curiosity conversations (18:49–19:19).

Discipline of Curiosity Conversations

• Grazer maintained a discipline of meeting a new person every day, describing it as his "spiritual practice."
  • “I didn't feel fulfilled…unless I met that new person every day.” — Brian (22:09)
  • He recounts the story of befriending Ron Howard and their journey from unknowns to successful collaborators out of this practice (21:21–23:47).

Case Studies: From Splash to Empire

• Grazer discusses the uphill battle of selling Splash, facing "no" thousands of times before success (20:18–21:04).
  • "It was always like a nasty no. You know, it wasn't just no without judgment. It was no, like what a stupid idea…" — Brian (21:04)
• Creation of Empire as an example of tapping into underserved audiences and then growing beyond (24:18–25:01).

Notable Curiosity Conversations

• Grazer shares stories of seeking out people like police chief Daryl Gates and what he learned from stepping outside his comfort zone.
  • Even after a year trying to meet Gates, the conversation occurred on the day of the Rodney King verdict—a key moment in LA history.
  • "He completely disrupted my point of view, which is what curiosity does." — Brian (32:54)
• Grazer emphasizes the importance of disrupting one’s own perspectives and not taking anything for granted (33:00–34:14).

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Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Approximate Timestamps)

• Curiosity and Human Connection
  • "Curiosity is a human connection." — Brian Grazer (04:13)
• On Curiosity as Spiritual Practice
  • “When I'm in the zone, it does get me into the place of truth within the person… that's the most satisfying feeling.” — Brian Grazer (04:52)
• On Asking Questions
  • "The secret to life is not in the answers, but in the questions." — Brian Grazer (05:18)
• Value of Personal Encouragement
  • "She liked all the questions I asked and would always give me an answer…she just had this sustained belief in me and validated me for the question." — Brian Grazer (06:55)
• The Power of Initiative
  • "I have to hand it to them directly." — Brian Grazer (09:55)
• Creativity is for Everyone
  • "Anyone can put the pencil on the paper…even though I never thought of myself as a writer, I could just dig stuff out of my imagination.” — Brian Grazer (12:52)
• On Hollywood’s Relentless Rejection
  • "Another acronym for Hollywood should be no, no, no. Oh, for sure no…The Hollywood sign should be no." — Oprah Winfrey (20:15)
• Maintaining the Practice
  • “I could not feel fulfilled unless I met that new person every day.” — Brian Grazer (22:09)
• Redemption as a Theme
  • "I totally believe that redemption is possible and strive for, whether it's Empire or my next movie, it has to have redemption or I won't try to make it." — Brian Grazer (36:58)
• Curiosity as the Way Out of Stagnation
  • "You think that your point of view is the definitive point of view, and it's just not. Not until you meet people that are outside your comfort zone." — Brian Grazer (33:44)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro to Brian Grazer and his philosophy — 01:27
• Curiosity as human connection & spiritual practice — 03:45–05:12
• Answers vs. questions — 05:18–06:06
• Childhood influences — 06:13–07:42
• Early Warner Brothers job, breaking in — 07:51–11:07
• Lou Wasserman and “owning your ideas” — 11:25–13:39
• Curiosity as force and power — 15:54–18:49
• Discipline of curiosity conversations — 21:21–22:26
• Struggles with Splash and collaboration with Ron Howard — 20:15–23:47
• The creation and impact of Empire — 24:18–25:29
• Daryl Gates story and lessons on power — 29:09–33:00
• Closing thoughts on curiosity and life purpose — 34:12–36:58

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is warm, honest, and deeply encouraging, blending Oprah's signature openness with Grazer's candid insights. Listeners are left with the message that curiosity isn’t just for creative professionals or the gifted—it is a muscle that anyone can work, a discipline that leads to greater connection, empathy, and personal power. Grazer’s story affirms the value of entering the unknown, asking better questions, and never taking life—or anyone—for granted.

Key Takeaway:
Curiosity, when practiced intentionally, becomes a tool for personal growth, creativity, and deep human connection. It is accessible to everyone and can be the secret to a much bigger, more meaningful life.

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Transcript

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[Jeff Bridges]

Morning Zoe Got donuts.

[Dana]

Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you teach me so Dana.

[Dana]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Brian Grazer]

Wow.

[Jeff Bridges]

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[Brian Grazer]

Nice.

[Dana]

Jeffrey, you heard them.

[Brian Grazer]

T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for launch?

[Dana]

Dude, my work here is done.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Data 1H2025 Visit T mobile.com I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Brian Grazer is the visionary producer behind some of the greatest films and television shows of our time. Producer From Splash to A Beautiful mind to Apollo 13 to his latest breakout hit Empire, his work has been nominated for 43 Academy Awards and 149 Emmys. Brian says he was curious from an early age and as the oldest of three growing up in Sherman Oaks, California. He struggled in school, but says he was endlessly fascinated by the world around him. He's written a book and it's called A Curious the Secret to a Bigger Life. Brian says pursuing what he calls curiosity conversations has been key to his happiness and success. We all know that you're Academy Award winning producer behind all these phenomenal films that we have come to love. You've produced television and films and now you're adding author. Was that a little scary to add authority to your resume?

[Brian Grazer]

Well, it was scary. First I thought it might be easy. Then it got to the point where it was really hard just telling the story, you know, trying to remember the stories of 25 years and the conversations that I did every two weeks and trying to synthesize it and turn it into tiny stories that people are going to want to read and that have the message of curiosity.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is a hard thing to do. And I have to.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I have to say that when I first started reading it, I was like, what's this gonna be? How are you gonna. It's so esoteric. Curiosity. But I would have to say I had a mind shift.

[Brian Grazer]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I had a mind shift. Which I'm sure that's what you're after, right? Yeah, I had a mind shift while reading it because I was like, how can the claim that you have on the book, A curious Mind, the secret of a bigger Life. How can that make me have a bigger life? And I never thought of myself as a curious person.

[Brian Grazer]

Wow. I think your view is an extremely curious person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know why? Because there's a point in the book where you talk about how curiosity isn't named what it really is. And the fact that I sat and talked to people every day. I just thought I was sitting talking to people every day because I was interested in them. I didn't think that was particularly a curious thing I was doing, you know, but I was interested in having a human connection, which is what you say curiosity absolutely brings.

[Brian Grazer]

Is a human connection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Brian Grazer]

And, you know, I think when we have our very first and best date in life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Brian Grazer]

When that date is great and you have that perfect connection, that's when it's really working. And I think you've been able to bring that to your everyday life. And I'm trying to bring that to my everyday life because I do feel like it does expand my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. It's so much a part of my everyday life. I never thought of it as.

[Brian Grazer]

As a special thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As a special thing or curiosity. And you know, on this show, Super Soul Sunday, we talk about all things spiritual. Would you say that curiosity is your spiritual practice?

[Brian Grazer]

Yes, because when I'm in the zone, it does get me into the place of truth within the person. I'm connecting with. And ultimately, that's the most satisfying feeling, is to feel the sense of truth, whatever that is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because that's what spirituality really is, is looking for the truth and the essence of whatever a thing or person is.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah. It's not rationalized or prognosticated. It's a real. The deepest emotional connection. Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Now, one of the things that struck me in A Curious Mind, you say that the secret to life is not in the answers, but in the questions. And when I first read that, I paused a minute because I've spent my whole life asking questions, and I'm always seeking the answers. I always think it's about the answer. Why do you say that the questions are the most important?

[Brian Grazer]

I'll tell you why. No. Because I don't know before I meet somebody, the best question, not until I meet them, can the better questions get formed. So I'll start with something that I think is a good question. But it's this sort of biochemical moment that happens, like I was saying on your first date or even in this moment, connecting with you, that my better questions are going to evolve.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's why curiosity is really the key to authentic connection. Because your interest in the other person.

[Brian Grazer]

Because of your interest in the other person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So this is what I love about your life. You dedicate the book to Grandma Sonia Schwartz.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because starting when I was a boy, she treated every question I asked as valuable. She taught me to think of myself as curious, a gift that has served me every day of my life.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you weren't a great student.

[Brian Grazer]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Didn't even read. Well, I mean, back in the day, you would have been called dyslexic, Probably.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah, definitely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your mother was really upset with you because you were failing the third.

[Brian Grazer]

Grade, which is reason to be concerned. Yes, I was totally failing the third.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, Failing the third grade. But your grandmother wasn't worried.

[Brian Grazer]

My grandmother wasn't worried. She liked all the questions I asked and would always give me an answer. And she'd always say, brian, you're going to be special. You're going to use this curiosity. You're going to be a special kid. And I often was looking at my report card while she's saying, you're going to be special. My report card said all Fs and Ds. And I'm going, what is she. Does she know what's going on here? I'm getting all Fs and she's telling me I'm going to be special. But she just had this Sustained belief in me and validated me for the question, you know, for questions and asking questions and curiosity and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did she use the word curiosity? Did she say, it's your curiosity? She did.

[Brian Grazer]

Mostly it was just, you're going to be special because of your questions. You ask good questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let's start from the beginning. I love the fact that you're in this little apartment.

[Brian Grazer]

In this little apartment. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The windows open.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you hear these guys outside talking.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you literally go over and you're eavesdropping. I know. I love the fact you called it curious.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You called it curious. But you really were eavesdropping.

[Brian Grazer]

It was really eavesdropping.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really eavesdropping. And what'd you hear?

[Brian Grazer]

Okay. So I just graduated college, like, within the week, and I thought, just like millions of other kids that are graduating college, I thought, what am I gonna do now? I just graduated. I'm completely lost. Oh, I need a job.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What did you major in? Law.

[Brian Grazer]

I majored. No, in psychology. But I got accepted to law school. But I was positive I'd never get through law school. And even more positive if I got through, I'd never pass the bar. So I was just, you know, a normal kid, kind of terrified and confused. What do I do?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Brian Grazer]

But then I hear these two graduate students of law school talking outside my window, and I overheard one of them say, I just had the cushiest job of all time. I thought, cushy. That means the easiest job.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Brian Grazer]

And they said, yeah. At Warner Brothers Legal Affairs, a man named Peter Knecht. And I listened to the conversation. Why? It's easy. So great. They gave you a company car. I immediately call information, get a hold of Warner Brothers Legal affairs, get Peter Knecht on the phone. I got the job that day.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Brian Grazer]

And all of a sudden, I had this job where I was just to deliver papers. Warner Brothers papers. So first one was basically to warn Beatty, and I was to leave it with a receptionist. And I said, no, no, I can't leave the papers with anybody. I have to hand them to Mr. Beatty directly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You said that instinctively?

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah, I said that instinctively. Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Cause what, you wanted to meet Warren Beatty?

[Brian Grazer]

I really wanted to meet Warren Beatty. And I thought, well, he was so accomplished, and, you know, he's an Adonis, but at the same time, he's gigantically talented. And I thought, why not? I'm not hurting anybody. If he's available to meet me, you know, he'll likely say yes. And he did say yes. And that was the beginning so you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Get this job, and then you create this rule that you're not gonna see, you're not gonna drop. Just drop off the papers that you say to the assistants. I have to meet the person directly.

[Brian Grazer]

Yes. I have to hand it to them directly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And everybody just believed that.

[Brian Grazer]

Everyone just believed. Accepted it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is what I think is amazing. Somebody really important vacated a big office. Big office. And you said, can I just move in there?

[Brian Grazer]

Okay. So what happened is I had this teeny little office that Peter Knecht, my boss, head of the legal department.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Brian Grazer]

Then his boss, who was head of business affairs, got fired. Who had a giant office, like the size of a handball court. As big as this room. Yeah. And I said to my boss, can I use this other office? And he said, sure, no problem. That giant office was right outside the three executives that ran Warner Brothers. And I literally just sort of hung outside my door and nearby. And they'd say, why don't you just come in and sit on my couch? And I want you. This is how you're going to learn what show business is about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is that when you decided, I like this movie business and maybe I'll be a.

[Brian Grazer]

Maybe I'll be a producer. Maybe.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But did you even know what a producer was?

[Brian Grazer]

I didn't know what a producer was. I didn't know what anything was. But sitting in that office near the three executives, I learned the language.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Brian Grazer]

And learning the language, it's like going to another country. If you learn the language, you can do things and it becomes demystified. You understand where the leverage lies. So when I was in that office, I started this practice of meeting people that were in show business every day, including Lou Wasserman.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The Lou Wasserman?

[Brian Grazer]

The Lou Wasserman who was the patriarch of kind of modern entertainment. Yeah. And before Lou Wasserman, I've sort of successfully met different individuals. But when I met him, as I got off the elevator on the 15th floor, I saw him coming at me and he gave me that look like, don't waste my time, kid. And usually I could get through this, navigate through it, but I could tell he was. I couldn't with him. And I started out with my opening sentence, and he just said, look, you don't have much to say. Wait here a second. And he. This is Lou Wasserman. This is Lou Wasserman, who basically created Universal Pictures and mca. Yeah. And he says, wait a second, kid. He won't even let me go in the office. He meets me at the lobby as I get off the elevator, and he goes into his office, gets a big legal tab and a number two pencil. And he says, hold this. He says, put the pencil to the paper and it's worth more than it is at separate parts. I thought, what's he mean? And he said, okay, now get out of here. So what's he mean? Yeah, I wasn't sure what he meant because I was also really nervous. And what's he mean by that?

[Oprah Winfrey]

He means your time is limited in this space. That's what he means.

[Brian Grazer]

He means my time is limited in that space for sure. Back on that elevator with my number two pencil. But what he meant was, like, you have to own your own ideas. You don't have any because I had no money. I really had kind of a fake job, you know, this little law clerk job. And he said, you don't know anybody. You're not the nephew or cousin of some movie star. You're a nice enough kid, but you don't have any connections. You don't have the money to buy a book to burn into a movie. So the only thing you've got a chance at is, like, creating out of nothing an idea. And I thought, well, wow, that's actually kind of democratized because anyone can put the pencil on the paper. And even though I wasn't never thought of myself as a writer, I could just dig stuff out of my imagination.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So is that where splash came from?

[Brian Grazer]

So splash came from was birthed out of that moment that I had with Lou Wasserman kicking me out of his office.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

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[Jeff Bridges]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Dana]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Jeff Bridges]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So, Dana.

[Dana]

Oh, no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Jeff Bridges]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T Mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network.

[Brian Grazer]

Nice.

[Dana]

Jeffrey, you have heard them.

[Brian Grazer]

T Mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Jeff Bridges]

So what are we having for lunch?

[Dana]

Dude, my work here is done.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

It that you've come to understand that curiosity can make us more successful, make us more connected, make us more adventurous, make us all the things that you talk about in a Curious mind?

[Brian Grazer]

Wow, Good question. I mean, I guess the best way I would say it is that is that it's done that for my life. And I have. There's sort of, there's evidence that it worked because I grew up this tiny little middle class neighborhood and I didn't leave it, went to college, I was 22 miles away. But literally I didn't know very much. But I did use this curiosity to meet new people in subjects that I would have never learned anything about. And by meeting these new people, it's given life to movies and television shows I've done. It's help me in my personal life with my children. It's been a powerful force in my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say it's a spark for creativity and inspiration, a way of motivating yourself, a tool for independence and self confidence as the key to storytelling. As a form of courage?

[Brian Grazer]

Yes, definitely as a form of courage. How? Well, because, well, I mean, a lot of my movies deal with characters that are emotionally disabled or handicapped but that have will or drive. It's just a reflection of me really, that I think I'm insecure and I go to parties and I feel insecure, but I'm able to overcome it often because I feel as though I do have confidence because I've learned about some subjects that other people don't know about. If I'm in a conversation, I can talk about architecture or food or design or fashion and they might not be Able to. And these. The curiosity conversations that I had as a little boy or out of college have well rounded my life. And nobody judges those conversations.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, what's interesting is you say that curiosity can actually make us more powerful. How is that? So curiosity gives you power, you say?

[Brian Grazer]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Definitely not the kind of power that comes from yelling and being aggressive. It's a quiet kind of power, a cumulative power. Power for real people. It's power for people who don't have superpowers. So why is that?

[Brian Grazer]

So, wow. I think you can come to the table with people that are experts in other things and feel. I always felt like I had as much to offer as they did. Even though I wasn't expert in science or even though I wasn't a superstar like Russell Crowe or Tom Hanks or Denzel Washington, I felt like I might have the secret to some subject that they don't have. And I can, you know, kind of stand toe to toe because I met Jonas Salk and what was it like to meet him? And why did I, you know, I came to the table with other things that I just created myself. We can all meet some person. They can meet the pharmacist and talk about how that works and talk about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How we can all create our own curiosity conversations. And I think it's a great way to look at it. Like everybody that you meet is a possibility for a curiosity conversation. When you're at your kid's soccer match and you're sitting there with the people, instead of just having a, you know, a fake conversation. A fake conversation, have a real conversation.

[Brian Grazer]

You really talk.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When you're at the checkout line at the grocery store, when you're sitting next to somebody on a plane or a train. Same thing.

[Brian Grazer]

Exactly. You want to make a difference. If you feel like you're making a difference, that's adding to your purpose on the planet or your purpose to your child, or purpose to a friend, and I get more confidence out of it, and I feel more worthwhile out of it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Brian Grazer and Ron Howard have been friends since 1979, after Brian approached Ron on the Paramount Pictures lot where they both worked. By then, Brian had already pitched his idea for the movie Splash to several studios and had no luck. Undeterred by all the rejections, Brian eventually convinced Ron to direct the heartwarming love story about a mermaid in 1984. Splash would go on to gross nearly $70 million at the box office. This is what's interesting. You say over and over in a curious mind that another acronym for Hollywood should be no, no, no. Oh, for sure no.

[Brian Grazer]

Because still no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That the Hollywood sign should be no.

[Brian Grazer]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The no sign. Because you get told no all the time.

[Brian Grazer]

The no, no, no, no, no. That's hilarious. It should just be that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you have to have, you have to develop a thick skin or be the kind of person who's used to being told no and, and ready to recharge or revamp a no.

[Brian Grazer]

Yes. You have to revamp a no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because when you're walking around with script about a mermaid, at first everybody said, are you out of your mind?

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah. I think even in the book, nearly 1,000 people said no. It was about a seven year period of no many times a day a mermaid no. But it was always like a nasty no. You know, it wasn't just no without judgment. It was no. Like what a stupid idea it was really. And, and I guess on some levels, if they thought of it only as a mermaid, it might have been.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But then you started to think about it differently.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You write in a curious mind that you shifted the way you told the story after you've been told no so long. But even Ron Howard said no to you when you wanted to do. Even Ron Howard, even little Ron Howard said no. Tell us about the moment you're in your office and you see Ron Howard outside the door.

[Brian Grazer]

So basically I had this process where at that time in my life I was trying to meet a new person every day. When. But not outside the business, but within the business. And I thought, God, I have to meet a new person today. I haven't checked someone off the list. I look out my window, I'm on the Paramount lot, and I see Ron Howard, whose happy days. Richie.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because this is the time where you talk in the book. I think it's on page. I think it's on page 58. It's on page 58 where you say you turned it into a discipline. You've now turned curiosity into a discipline and a habit. So on a regular basis you have decided, I'm going to meet this many people a week. I talked to this many people. That's amazing.

[Brian Grazer]

Yes, I turned it into a discipline. Like, you know, it was religion to me. It was, but it was a discipline.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was your spiritual practice.

[Brian Grazer]

It was my spiritual practice. It really was. I didn't feel fulfilled. It was impossible. I could not feel fulfilled unless I met that new person every day.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Brian Grazer]

I just didn't feel like my life's work was done, you know, I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So that was your goal, to meet a New person.

[Brian Grazer]

I wasn't succeeding in show business, but even when I am succeeding at certain show business, if I'm not doing it, I don't feel that I'm. I've brought meaning to my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Unless you're meeting a new person.

[Brian Grazer]

Unless I'm meeting a new person that's sharing their perspective on their life, and I get to enter the secret of their process in some way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Amazing. Now, that's curious. That's instinctively curious. That's an instinctive.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah, I think everyone's got it, but I think I worked at it more than others, and I think. But I think everyone can, right? But with Ron, I just. I looked out the window, I said, I'm gonna meet Ron Howard. And then I call him up, he's really shy. And then I meet with him and he said, I want to be a movie director. But there was, like, no evidence he could be a real movie director because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We knew him as Opie. Opie Taylor and Richie Cunningham.

[Brian Grazer]

Richie Cunningham. But he had this. I honestly. I always tell. He had this aura around him. When he walked into my office, it was almost like the sun was behind him in and off. And he had this aura of goodness. And I really felt like this was something of value and that I needed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so he was just another curiosity too, right?

[Brian Grazer]

He was just another curiosity.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You said, come meet with me.

[Brian Grazer]

I said, come meet with me, please. And he did. He didn't want to, but he did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so he wanted to be a director and you wanted to be a producer.

[Brian Grazer]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you all decided to form this company.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah, and then we decided. So we're two basically unemployed guys that wanted to be something that. Other than what we were. And we just sort of joined up because we believed in each other. We believed we each had something that we couldn't quite state to one another, that had value.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Tell me this how your curiosity informed you. Creating what? Which is now a phenomenon on television. Empire.

[Brian Grazer]

Oh, wow. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did that come to be? I saw the pilot back in August and I said to Lee, it's gonna be a phenomenal. It's gonna be a phenomenon.

[Brian Grazer]

I know you were a huge early on supporter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I knew it. I felt it.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is a phenomenon.

[Brian Grazer]

It's a phenomenon because it addresses an audience that's been very unserviced.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Brian Grazer]

And is that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But now not only addresses the African American audience, but the thing that is phenomenal about it. Phenomenal is that it has expanded to include everybody.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how does sitting in this newfound empire. Success feel to you.

[Brian Grazer]

I have to say it's cooler and better than any other success I've had.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really? Why?

[Brian Grazer]

Well, cause it was explosive. I mean, I'll tell you why. It was immediate and explosive. And I think there's like beyond that it has this sort of awe factor. Like every week three crazy things are going to happen with the characters. Like what's going to happen? It's got that it's sort of cool and it's got great actors that are kind of Oscar nominated caliber actors. That feels good.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

How has curiosity informed your film work?

[Brian Grazer]

Well, curiosity has informed my film work because for several reasons. The most effective films are the ones that ignite emotion in others where of course and you know that only too well. But so when you you can have these ideas and you can have empathy, which is the Most important thing. But if you can't convert that empathy to images that ignite the empathy and emotion, you're not really communicating. So it's helped me because I meet new people all the time that show me different perspectives on different subjects. So I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You use that information. You sort of, like, curate curiosity. Actually, you curate. So this is what's so fascinating to me about your. How many do you know the number? I started to add them all up. Of the number of people I met. Yeah. Of the curiosity conversations you've had, I.

[Brian Grazer]

Probably had eight or 900. I think I only list, like, 500, but there's probably eight or 900.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I got a call from you, like, in 2007.

[Brian Grazer]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I remember. And it's like, oh, my God, Brian Grazer's calling me. Brian Grazer's calling me. And I remember saying, well, I didn't want to inconvenience you. You were telling me that you were doing these conversations.

[Brian Grazer]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I didn't know what you were talking about, but I thought, well, maybe he wants to do a movie.

[Brian Grazer]

I don't know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I go and have. I think I met you for breakfast.

[Brian Grazer]

You did at first.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say in the book that. I don't remember. I came to breakfast in my pajamas.

[Brian Grazer]

You came in your pajamas. You had a robe and pajamas on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I came to breakfast in my pajamas.

[Brian Grazer]

And we had, like, a later breakfast.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What was I thinking?

[Brian Grazer]

I think you just, I don't know, maybe felt relaxed and, you know, and you were probably super busy and you just thought, I'm gonna do it. And, wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I didn't know that this was a part of a thing that you had been doing for years and years. I mean, because as I'm reading up all. As I'm reading the book, I'm thinking, I remember you called me and, gosh, I hope I had something good to say.

[Brian Grazer]

Great stuff.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, thank you. The most fascinating to me, however, is Chief Darrell Gates.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah. He was a police chief, one of the more important police chiefs and renowned police chiefs in America. But he was also somewhat polarizing because of his level of power in the city of Los Angeles.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Brian Grazer]

And I thought, I'd really like to meet him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you had called up the police chief of Los Angeles, that you tracked him for what, a year?

[Brian Grazer]

Almost for about a year. Because some of these meetings take a year for you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You just call up interesting people.

[Brian Grazer]

I call interesting people Nobel laureates, police chiefs, CIA directors, Barack Obama, Princess Di. I got. But this was Daryl Gates of the LA Police Department. It Was pre Rodney King.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As the chief of the Los Angeles Police Department for 14 years, Daryl Gates was notorious for his hardline law enforcement tactics, such as his pioneering use of SWAT teams. In 1991, Gaetz faced strong criticism after Rodney King was beaten by four members of his department. He resigned in the wake of the LA riots that followed the officer's acquittal. So what makes you curious about the police chief?

[Brian Grazer]

Well, I was curious about power. How is power integral to his mindset?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you're doing these interviews, these curiosity conversations, not because you're interested in making a movie or writing a book or you just are interested.

[Brian Grazer]

I'm just interested.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you start like a year before Rodney King.

[Brian Grazer]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your lunch date is set for the day the verdict comes out for the four officers.

[Brian Grazer]

Isn't that crazy? It's crazy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Crazy.

[Brian Grazer]

And he didn't cancel the lunch.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what I thought was the craziest.

[Brian Grazer]

That's the craziest, that he didn't cancel the lunch. I thought, this guy is of course going to cancel because there were riots, 2000 buildings caught on fire the day before, the night before. And he doesn't cancel the meeting. I can't believe it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you go up and there he.

[Brian Grazer]

Is, Daryl Gates up. Yeah. And he's calm as could be like a movie character. Just straight ahead, straight, not nervous, just calm. And then he says, asks me a few questions, I ask him some questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And why does he think he's in a conversation with you?

[Brian Grazer]

I think he also thought that I might.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You want to do a movie about him?

[Brian Grazer]

I want to do a movie about him or something.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I. And during that lunch, didn't somebody walk in during that lunch and say, you're on tv?

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah. You know, a high ranking lieutenant came in with really, you know, frightful, said, you know, chief, you're on TV right now. And literally pointed to a monitor where the city council was saying, we're voting him out. And he said, folded his arms like this, rather arrogantly said, not a chance. I'm never leaving this office.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Whoa.

[Brian Grazer]

And six weeks later, six weeks later, he was gone. He was a civilian.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But how did that, how did that meeting, that curiosity conversation with Daryl Gates change you or inform you?

[Brian Grazer]

I guess I thought it gave me further evidence that power can also anesthetize you. Because I felt like he was beyond blinded by it. He was kind of anesthetized. And I later produced a TV series called 24, and that's about a wish fulfillment character that breaks, you know, that kind of Breaks through red tape.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Cause you use all that information.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah, I used all that information that I got from Darrell Gates to inform my perspective on these other, you know, these other movies or television shows.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love what you said when you left the office. I was looking for the exact quote, what Daryl Gates did for me. He completely disrupted my point of view, which is what curiosity does.

[Brian Grazer]

It definitely does. Because you have to enter someone else's world of expertise.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is when I.

[Brian Grazer]

You have to always live in some, you know, have to be in, you know, get outside your comfort zone.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And this is what I love about. I think this is the essence of the curious mind, the secret to bigger life. I think when you say we are all trapped in our own way of thinking, trapped in our own way of relating to people, we get so used to seeing the world our way that we come to think that the world is the way we see it.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

For someone who makes his living finding and telling stories on movie and TV screens, that kind of parochialism can be dangerous. It's also boring. But I think it's what also happens to everybody else. You get so used to seeing the world from your point of view. You think that your point of view is it.

[Brian Grazer]

Yeah. You think that your point of view is the definitive point of view. Is the definitive point of view, and it's just not. I mean, not until you meet people that are outside your comfort zone. Do you realize that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love what you write when you say you're born curious. And no matter how much battering your curiosity has taken, it's standing by, ready to be awakened. So how can we leave this Sunday morning with a more awakened curiosity? Um.

[Brian Grazer]

You can't. You take nothing for granted.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Take nothing.

[Brian Grazer]

Nothing for granted. Don't take your health for granted. Don't take the people around you for granted.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Why do you think we're all here? What is the purpose of the human experience, do you think?

[Brian Grazer]

Well, ultimately, I think love is a very powerful force. And so it's enjoining, you know, creating love within a fam. With family or friends or other human beings. It's a socialized world, but I think we're kind of trying to understand the truth of why we're here. You know, is there a God? Is there? What happens if we. All those big questions, you know, do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You have the answer?

[Brian Grazer]

I don't have the answer, but I do believe in God. Do I?

[Oprah Winfrey]

How do you define it? Him, her, it.

[Brian Grazer]

I don't know what God looks like. You know, whether God is a man or A woman. But I do believe there's God as a governing force that's someplace out there that in some way, when you're connected to the source, you know, when you're really, your conscience is connecting to something other than just your self interest. Absolutely. And so I think, you know, I look at it, I created my own little litmus test. I told my best friend the other day, like I said, do you believe in God? We talked about that. And I said, I know that if I have a final moment in a plane that's going down, I know what I'm doing. I'm praying to God.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How do you stay in the light in this polarized world of darkness and light?

[Brian Grazer]

God, I didn't anticipate that question. How do you stay? I think probably you have to probably just act within what you're, you know, within the sphere of your reach. Like if you can treat everybody that you're in contact with as equal and with love, I guess I believe in that butterfly effect. It works its way out to other people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's the calling you, Brian Grazer, came here to fulfill?

[Brian Grazer]

I would like people to sort of embrace the power that they all have within them and become more curious. It will bring them a bigger life. I do think that would be a calling. I like to make movies that have redemption. Not every become. There's not always the big triumph at the end of the movie, but there's usually a normal person that overcomes a fear that they had, an insecurity, they had an emotional injury they had, and they get through that to that next step. That gives them a sense of. A greater sense of purpose and confidence.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And so your purpose then is to let people know redemption is possible.

[Brian Grazer]

I totally believe that redemption is possible and strive for, whether it's Empire or my next movie, it has to have redemption or I won't try to make it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, thank you for this conversation. Wow.

[Brian Grazer]

Thank you, thank you. It was good. We did okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We did.

[Brian Grazer]

I hope it was okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was great.

[Brian Grazer]

All right, good, good, good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Brian Grazer]

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