Super Soul Special: Carole Bayer Sager: Music as Prayer

Summary

Super Soul Special: Carole Bayer Sager – Music as Prayer

Podcast: Oprah's Super Soul
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Carole Bayer Sager
Date: January 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features award-winning songwriter Carole Bayer Sager in a spiritual and revelatory conversation with Oprah. Sager, famed for penning hits like “Nobody Does It Better,” “That’s What Friends Are For,” and “The Prayer,” discusses her new memoir, They’re Playing Our Song. Through soulful reflection, she reveals how music and creativity have been vehicles for healing, universal connection, and self-acceptance. The episode explores the intersection of creativity and spirituality, the lifelong effects of childhood wounds, and the ultimate journey toward inner peace.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Source of Songwriting: Channeling Something Greater

• Creativity as Conduit: Sager expresses the belief that powerful songs don’t come from her, but through her, as though channeled from a higher source.
  • “I've always believed in my heart that the best songs, the ones that resonate in my soul and therefore go out into the world and resonate in other people's, don't come from us. They come through us.” – Carole Bayer Sager (02:23)
• Songwriting as Intention & Prayer: She begins each session with a prayer to bring forth something healing and meaningful.
  • “I always say a little prayer before I go into my music room, and it's a sort of prayer of intention…let me bring forth something…that will help heal.” – Carole Bayer Sager (02:38)
• Oprah’s Reflection: Oprah frames the conversation around how music, like literature, shapes the soundtrack—and the emotional landscape—of our lives (01:44–03:30).

2. The Magic and Universality of Music

• Instant Resonance: Sager describes the mystical quality of pairing melody with lyric, and how universal music can be.
  • “It's not the melody. It's not the lyric. It's the combination where one and one become three.” – Carole Bayer Sager (03:54)
  • “Music is so universal.” – Carole Bayer Sager (04:15)
• How Songs Take Hold: Both discuss how certain songs become lifelong mantras or memories, persisting in listeners’ minds (04:43–05:11).

3. Songwriting as Identity and Healing

• Calling from Childhood: Sager recounts knowing in high school that songwriting was her passion and destiny—not just a job, but her life's purpose.
  • “I knew this is what I wanted to do and this is what I had to do.” – Carole Bayer Sager (05:25)
• Creativity as Spiritual Practice: Songwriting is positioned as Sager’s spiritual practice, a direct path to her highest self.
  • “Creativity is my spiritual practice, which has taken the form of songwriting for most of my life.” – Carole Bayer Sager (06:50)

4. Childhood Wounds & Their Long Shadow

• Internalized Criticism: Sager shares personal stories about body image and her mother’s harsh comments—particularly the painful story of being told to “walk behind me, fatty,” shaping a lifetime of insecurity and difficulty with food (08:57–12:05).
  • “[My mother] said, ‘Walk behind me, fatty. You're embarrassing me.’” – Carole Bayer Sager (09:12)
  • “That voice becomes in your head, and you don't need anyone to tell you that. You're saying it to yourself over and over and over.” – Carole Bayer Sager (11:05)
• The Lifelong Struggle: Despite success, Sager admits she never fully resolved her complicated relationship with food and self-image but continued working on self-acceptance and peace through spirituality and therapy (12:08–12:58).

5. The Anatomy of a Song: Creation of “That’s What Friends Are For”

• Lyric and Melody as Prayer: Sager recounts writing the iconic hit with Burt Bacharach. The creative process was organic—a direct, almost psychic response to melody.
  • “I never thought I'd feel this way. And he said, ‘That's not what I played.’ ... But what's the difference? It's just a 16th note.” – Carole Bayer Sager (15:39–16:55)
  • “That's when something Greater than you is inspiring you to make something more than you thought you were making.” – Carole Bayer Sager (17:12)
• The Song’s Legacy: Beyond personal achievement, the song lifted spirits globally and raised over $3 million for AIDS research (14:23).

6. “The Prayer” – The Spiritual Summit

• Origin for an Animated Movie: Sager and David Foster created “The Prayer” initially for a film, with the lyric embodying a mother’s hopes for her child (20:46).
• Effortless Inspiration: The song came quickly and felt sacred.
  • “Yes, it did. And it came…I knew…It was, I knew, sacred.” – Carole Bayer Sager (23:28)
  • “[David Foster] said the prayer is one of only three songs in the world that's played at both weddings and funerals. The other two songs are Ave Maria and Wind Beneath My Wings.” – Carole Bayer Sager (23:49)
• The Song as Offering: Sager defines “The Prayer” as her spiritual offering, a conduit for safety and healing to others.
  • “Thank you, God, for allowing this song to come through me. Because it's everything—I think it's my theme of my life.” – Carole Bayer Sager (24:03)

7. Pain Amidst Success: Anxiety, Self-Doubt & Healing

• Crippling Anxiety in Success: Sager opens up about how, despite winning awards and acclaim, she struggled with paralyzing self-doubt and anxiety.
  • “I was partly praying we didn't win because I didn't feel that I could make it from my seat to the stage and be coherent or even get there.” – Carole Bayer Sager, on her first Oscar nomination (27:29)
  • “I feel somewhere back in time, I made a deal with the devil. ‘Give me a fantastic life and I promise you I won't enjoy it.’” – Carole Bayer Sager (28:25)
• Transformation through Love and Therapy: Meeting her husband, Bob, and years of therapy led her toward self-love and inner peace for the first time in her life (29:30–31:35).

8. Purpose, Legacy & Inner Fulfillment

• From Darkness to Light: Sager sees her life’s purpose as transforming darkness from her early life into light—spreading connection and making people feel less alone through her songs.
  • “I think my purpose here on earth has been to connect to other people and have them feel less alone.” – Carole Bayer Sager (33:10)
  • “If I could put that out there so others could feel it, then I feel I did what I was supposed to do.” – Carole Bayer Sager (33:52)
• Finding Joy in the Present: The journey to wholeness is a process; she emphasizes that you “get there when you get there.”
  • “And my answer was, you don't. You don't. It's...you get there when you get there, you go through everything you go through.” – Carole Bayer Sager (34:20)

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Notable Quotes

• “I've always believed…the best songs…don't come from us. They come through us.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (02:23)

• “Creativity is my spiritual practice.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (06:50)

• “That's when something Greater than you is inspiring you to make something more than you thought you were making.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (17:12)

• “The prayer is the song I'm proudest of writing of any song in my life…It was, I knew, sacred.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (23:28)

• “Thank you, God, for allowing this song to come through me. Because it's everything—I think it's my theme of my life.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (24:03)

• “I feel somewhere back in time, I made a deal with the devil: give me a fantastic life and I promise you I won't enjoy it.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (28:25)

• “I think my purpose here on earth has been to connect to other people and have them feel less alone.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (33:10)

• “You get there when you get there...It took me that long to get to that place where I can say I love my life.”
  — Carole Bayer Sager (34:20)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:44 | Oprah’s introduction: Carole’s influence on the soundtracks of our lives | | 02:23 | Carole on songwriting as channeling, not creation | | 03:54 | The mysterious magic of lyric and melody, “one and one become three” | | 08:57 | Story about her mother’s damaging criticism | | 14:23 | The story and impact of “That’s What Friends Are For” | | 15:39 | Creative process: songwriting as alignment with something greater | | 20:46 | How “The Prayer” was written, inspiration and reception | | 23:28 | “The Prayer” as sacred, played at both weddings and funerals | | 24:03 | “Thank you, God, for allowing this song to come through me…” | | 27:29 | Anxiety and self-doubt even at the peak of professional success | | 29:30 | Healing journey: therapy, inner peace, and love | | 33:10 | Carole’s legacy: making people feel less alone | | 34:20 | Oprah’s question about finding peace sooner; Carole on the inevitability of the journey |

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Memorable Moments

• Vulnerability around food and body image: The heartbreaking “walk behind me, fatty” story (09:12) and her lifelong search for peace.
• The detailed creative struggle and spark behind “That’s What Friends Are For” — right down to the “16th note” and the meaning in each lyric (16:55–18:52).
• Openness about missing enjoyment in moments of triumph because of inner turmoil, especially at the Oscars and Songwriters Hall of Fame (27:11–28:25).
• The almost mystical, effortless creation of “The Prayer” (23:28), which Sager considers her life’s offering and spiritual purpose.

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The Takeaway

Carole Bayer Sager’s story—artistic, spiritual, and deeply human—is one of channeling life’s wounds into healing for others through creativity. By framing songwriting as both prayer and spiritual practice, she illuminates how music can connect souls, offer solace, and leave a lasting legacy of safety, love, and belonging. Even icons must wrestle with self-doubt, but with time, intention, and connection, peace and self-acceptance are possible. Sager’s journey is a testament to the long, winding road toward wholeness—and the beauty of giving what we most needed to others.

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Transcript

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[Carole Bayer Sager]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most.

[Interviewer]

Valuable gifts you can give yourself is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Nominated for a Tony, an Oscar, a Grammy, an Emmy, and a Golden Globe, Carol has co written hit after hit like Nobody Does It Better, Author's Theme, Don't Cry Out Loud and It's my turn. Just saying the words makes me want to sing them all, but I'd spare you that, Super Solars. Her roster of legendary performers include Barbra Streisand, Dinah Ross, Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin, Celine Dion, and Stevie Wonder. In her new book, They're Playing Our Song, Carol reflects on her spiritual journey both in and out of the recording studio, including the funny, difficult, and deeply personal stories behind many of her hit songs.

[Interviewer]

You know, when you look at the sheer volume, your success is really kind of staggering. It's kind of awesome because you've written all these songs over the years that are the themes for our lives. It's more than just the soundtracks. They're themes for where we were in our lives. And I'm just curious as to what you tap into to bring that kind of art that resonates with the world into a form that's called songwriting.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Well, I've always believed in my heart that the best songs, the ones that resonate in my soul and therefore go out into the world and resonate in other people's, don't come from us. They come through us. And I always say a little prayer before I go into my music room, and it's a sort of prayer of intention. You know, please let me bring forth something. Help me that will help heal. I mean, certainly later in my songwriting, I tried very much for my songs to have some ability to touch others and help them be in a better place than before they heard the song. But I do try to write in the most simple way, feelings and whatever I'm writing about that touch the heart.

[Interviewer]

I think there's something magical about it. You know, my love for books and my love for authors and my love for people who know how to take the written word and turn it literally into, you know, a song for our life. But I think there's something magical that. Something of. Not really of this earth that happens when it becomes music.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I think you're right. And I think it's when the perfect. The lyric that fits the A melody just perfectly. It's not the melody. It's not the lyric. It's the combination where one and one become three. And I feel that those songs, and they can be. It's so unfair, really, because they can be written sometimes in two hours like that. But that song can cross boundaries all over the world because music is so universal.

[Interviewer]

And so.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And someone can slave writing a book for three years, four years, and it may not touch as many people as one universal song that goes out into the universe.

[Interviewer]

And you can read a book and not remember one single phrase or, you know, words, but there are songs and themes that stay in our head forever.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

That's how it was for me. Always, from when I was very small, I'd hear a song and it would just become a mantra in my head. It would go over and over and the same. Once I was writing them over and over almost to the point of like, stop. I don't want to hear that. But I couldn't help it.

[Interviewer]

And we've all had that happen to us. You go and you hear a song and then you get up in the middle of the night and it's still playing. It's still playing. It's still playing. So when did you know I am a songwriter? Was it when you had the first hit, Groovy Kind of Love?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

No. Well, that's when I knew I could write a hit song. But I knew I was a songwriter in high school when that's all I wanted to do was go back home and write songs, just finish my homework and write songs and just keep listening to the radio and writing more and more songs. And of course, they didn't go anywhere, but I knew this is what I wanted to do and this is what I had to do. And I wrote songs as a very little girl. I would put my lyrics to melodies that were on the radio at the time or on the television, and I would sing them for my parents.

[Interviewer]

So writing songs is your calling, your passion, your purpose?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Well, it certainly has been There came a point where, as I got older, that I felt the same number of people weren't calling me to write film songs. They weren't calling me to write for so and so, or do you have a song for so and so? So I. I shifted and started painting.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And then I wrote this book. Yeah. Because what I learned in my life is, for me, I need to be creative. I need to use this energy that's inside of me to create.

[Interviewer]

I mean, creative creativity is your spiritual practice or songwriting is your spiritual practice?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Creativity is my spiritual practice, which has taken the form of songwriting for most of my life. But it can be used in other ways, even in giving back to others, which is very important in our third act.

[Interviewer]

But what I get from their playing our song is not that you were just a songwriter. It wasn't something that you just did. It is also who you are. You and what you did came out of who you are. That it's an expression of a deeper, higher self.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes. And it's also where I lived. I was a songwriter. That gave me my identity. My songs were expressing my feelings. And there was no place else in my life that I was as connected and as high functioning and as positive as I was in the lane of songwriting. In fact, when I got outside that lane, it's kind of like channels on a television. Some channels come in perfectly clear and other channels are all fuzzy and you go, what's the matter with my television? Well, if you think of all of us as giant televisions, some of our channels come in clearer than others. Songwriting was perfectly clear. Nothing could mess that up. When I was writing a song, I wasn't being a hypochondriac. I wasn't afraid of dying. I wasn't afraid of all the fears and anxieties that plagued me as a small little person and stayed through.

[Interviewer]

You weren't worried about your weight?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Oh, I wasn't worried about my weight. I write in the book my weight was perfect only once, but 6lbs, 7oz on the day I was born. Yeah, I don't know, you know, I know I'm not heavy today. And people hear me and they go, what is the matter with me?

[Interviewer]

What are you talking about?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

But I do have a picture in my book of me at 10 years old, and I was kind of square with a head on top. And it doesn't matter. It's a message you get.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of course.

[Interviewer]

I was just going to say it doesn't matter because, you know, we were at a. We were at a party and you were telling me this story. We were talking about our mothers, and you shared this story of your mother telling you to walk behind me, fatty.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Which, you know, you're embarrassing me.

[Interviewer]

Made my eyes water.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Walk behind me, fatty. You're embarrassing me. Yes. My mother saw me as an extension of her, I guess, narcissistic self. Yeah. And it wasn't good enough for her, you know, And I actually do write about that. We were going out to get me a party dress. And shopping was another one of those horrible experiences. It's like other friends of mine, oh, we're going shopping. And it was like, oh, no, I have to go shopping.

[Interviewer]

If you're the heavy girl. If you're the heavy girl.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And we went to one store and nothing fit me. You know, I'd outgrown the sizes.

[Interviewer]

How old were you when that happened?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I was about 12 years old.

[Interviewer]

I just feel for you, Karen.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yeah. And then my mother said, okay, we're going to go to plus sized store. And they had children's clothing. And I'll never forget this. We get off the elevator at the children's floor and there's a lady there. I don't know what she looked like, but I do remember that silver tray filled with chocolate chip cookies. And she said, would you like a cookie? And as my hand reached out to take the biggest cookie on the plate, my mother pushed that woman away and she said, there should be a shock. I mean, what do they want to do? Just keep their fatties, you know? And so she wasn't wrong. But it was like, you know, then I had to go put on all these clothes that did unfortunately fit me. And we bought this very unattractive hot pink dress. And as I write in the book, when I wore it, there was a lot of pink coming at you because I was a fat little child. And that mindset of my, you see, we internalize as well, you know, messages we got in our childhood.

[Interviewer]

Walk behind me, fatty.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

That's a tough one.

[Interviewer]

That's a tough one.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

That's a tough one. And that voice, though, years later, my mother was so proud of me. But that voice becomes in your head, and you don't need anyone to tell you that. You're saying it to yourself over and over and over.

[Interviewer]

That's your replay, that's your tape.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And it's how you make yourself feel bad about yourself, and it's why. And I've worked out a lot of things in my life that I'm very grateful to be able to tell you, but I have Never worked out to this day, a healthy relationship with food. I mean, it's just either I'm dieting or I'm gaining weight. And I'm so conscious of what will I eat for lunch, what will I eat for dinner? Will I eat dinner? Maybe I won't eat dinner tonight. Maybe I'll just have a protein drink because I ate so much at lunch. I'll. But I don't. But that looks so good. I mean, it's just a constant. And who cares? I mean, I say at this stage.

[Interviewer]

In your life when you're still, I'm old already.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I mean, who cares who's looking? What am I doing to myself? It's just a mind game to just not allow yourself complete peace. Forget about success, you know, in terms of songs, that's fantastic. I'm grateful for that talent and I'm grateful for the success I've had. But I've struggled to become a better, more conscious, more loving, more giving person in my life, you know, and those things have come to me later in life with more awareness and more awareness and studying Kapala and studying Buddhism and studying and reading and always searching, always searching for that place of peace and an open heart.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

After 50 years of writing some of the most popular songs, Carol Bayer Sager has finally written her own life story. In her new book, They're Playing Our Song, Carol shares the most vulnerable times in her life, including her nearly decade long marriage and painful breakup from composer, songwriter, producer and singer Burt Bacharach. Together, Burt and Carol wrote 13 hit songs, including the now classic number one worldwide smash, that's what Friends Are For Performed by Stevie Wonder, Elton John, Gladys Knight and Dionne Warwick, that's what Friends Are for broke global sales records and won two Grammys in 1986. That song of the year also raised AIDS awareness and over $3 million for the American foundation for AIDS Research. At the time.

[Interviewer]

I want to talk about the process a little bit for you. I think it is, you know, all art. Actually, Rainn Wilson was on here a couple of years ago and said there's no difference between art and prayer. That there is a way of connecting to that which is beyond yourself and that out of that alignment with something bigger than yourself comes the art.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I think there's some real truth in that. For me, being primarily a lyricist, although I studied music most of my life, for me, I know that when I hear something that has the potential of being a beautiful melody, it moves me in a way that I suddenly hear words that would not have ordinarily come to me and they just start to come because the music moves me to a place. But the best story is that that's what friends are for. Where Bert played me da da da da da da da da da and I said, oh, that's pretty. How about I never thought I'd feel this way. And he said, that's not what I played. I played da da da da da da da da da. I said, yes, that's lovely. I never thought I Carol, I'm playing da da. Oh, but what's the difference? It's just a 16th note. It's a difference to me. I'm playing da da da da da da. Okay, so then just say and. And I never thought I'd feel this way Way.

[Interviewer]

That's where the end came from.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yeah, it is so much better that way. It is so much better that way. Lyrically, it is so much better that way melodically. And it's so much better that it start a song like that because you're coming in in the middle of thought.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Who knew any of that at the time? That's when you're being. That's when something Greater than you is inspiring you to make something more than you thought you were making.

[Interviewer]

So when you heard the melody, the.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Words just came to you in an instant.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

In an instant. And I didn't know what we were going to write about, but certain melodies bring out feelings in me that then come into words.

[Interviewer]

And then those words came so and so. I never thought I'd feel this way first line of the song, you added Ann to fit the 16th note.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes. And I never thought I'd feel this way.

[Interviewer]

And then do you then try to tell a story through the writing or then what comes?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I don't know what happens. Pieces. I just knew that the next line, when he played it to me was. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad I got this chance to say that I do believe I love you. I mean, it just felt like that's what I was hearing.

[Interviewer]

Oh, wow.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And that feels psychic. Well, as I said, they come through me.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

It feels like I don't think them out in advance.

[Interviewer]

So then you get, I wanted to believe I love you if I should ever go away well, then close your eyes and try to feel the way we do today and then if you can remember Keep smiling, keep shining Knowing you can always count on me for sure that's what friends are for did you know that that's where you were getting to?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

No, but when I heard, I knew the verse. And then Bert had a melody. It was about, you know, friendship. And that's the title came to me. That's what it was.

[Interviewer]

In good times, in bad times I'll be on your side Forevermore Forevermore that's.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

What friends are for and Elton said, if this isn't a number one record, I will leave the business. We know he wouldn't have left the business, but still, it was a very positive statement. And I agree with you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The way you put all of those voices together.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Those voices together with Bert at the keyboard and Bert's orchestration and strings coming in. When they came in and gladys, everybody lifted it. 1. See, to me, a great record sometimes is when it just keeps lifting you higher than you thought you could be. And then you're just. You're there. You're just there. And it's so much more than what you wrote. It's so much more than the song. Now it becomes the song, the artist, the arrangement, the record, you know.

[Interviewer]

Wow, That's a magical spiritual thing. That's a God thing.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes, that's a God thing. That's when God steps in and Says I'll take it from here.

[Interviewer]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Looking back on her 50 year career, Carol says some songs feel like strangers to her. Others define who she believes she is. She calls those her soul songs, including her radiant 1998 hit, the Prayer. Performed by Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli. The Prayer was called breathtaking and exquisite by Billboard Magazine. Carol considers it her most successful offering to the world because she believes it sends healing to anyone who hears it.

[Interviewer]

So how did the Prayer come about?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

The Prayer is the song I'm proudest of writing of any song in my life. Co writing and I wrote it with David Foster. We were doing an animated film and.

[Interviewer]

The Prayer was written for the mother.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

It was written exactly. The mother was sending her daughter off on an adventure that had danger in it. And I said to David, she should sing a prayer for her daughter. He said, that's a nice idea. And he started to play. I mean, when David starts to play, I know, you know, I have been so fortunate because I have written Babyface Kenny, Babyface Edmonds, David Foster, Carly Simon, Carole King. I mean, they just have to play. And it was so pretty what he was playing. And I said, wait, wait. And I said, play that again. Which I think is my. That's the line I say the most in my life. Probably play that again. Because they can go by it. A musician can go right by that moment that you just heard that you.

[Interviewer]

Want to grab that you're tapping into.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yeah, play that again. And he did, and it was beautiful. And I suddenly started to hear. I pray you'll be our eyes and watch us from above. And I suddenly, you know, when I think about it now, the song is beautiful. But what is that song without Celine Dion and Andrea Bocelli? When they sing it together, they take me to a place and I say that. And I guess I say that in the song. Guide me to a place, Lead me to a place.

[Interviewer]

They take you there.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

They take me there.

[Interviewer]

I know there's something.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

You hear that song. It's like it has gone to its fullest potential, you know? And that's what we all hope to do with our lives. That's what we hope to do in this conversation. Right? That's what we hope to do.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They are the ultimate.

[Interviewer]

When you put those two voices together.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Celine Dion and Andrea Bocet.

[Interviewer]

Have you heard Yolanda Adams and Donnie McClurky?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Fantastic, fantastic. And Josh Groban did it.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Charlotte Church. And I mean, I've heard so many.

[Interviewer]

It's hard to mess it up.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Well, yes, if you have two. But you must have two wonderful voices. You must.

[Interviewer]

So when you finished, did the prayer come all at once?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes. Yes, it did. And it came. I'm sorry to say this, it came effortlessly. Wow. And it came. And we knew. We knew. It was, I knew, sacred. Yes. And David has since told me that the prayer is one of only three songs in the world that's played at both weddings and funerals. The other two songs are Ave Maria and Wind Beneath My Wings.

[Interviewer]

That's true. Oh, yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And when I hear the prayer even today, I just feel, thank you, God, for allowing this song to come through me. Because it's everything. I think it's my theme of my life. I think all I ever wanted in my life was to feel safe, to feel safe, to feel loved, and to feel like I could help others feel the same. And that song does that.

[Interviewer]

And don't you feel in many ways that the prayer is your offering? It is literally your offering.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

It's what I can give.

[Interviewer]

Yes. Do you experience or feel God, when you're writing this song? Like when you finished the prayer, did you feel like the peace?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I felt like all was right. Yeah. There was no anxiety inside of me. There was only this sense of tapping into something higher. Yes. Something more than us.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Like so many artists, Carole Bayer Sager used songwriting to heal her own troubled heart. Her music gave to others what Carol says she struggled to give herself. As a child, Carol was plagued by painful criticism and self doubt, which manifested into crippling lifelong anxiety, as it does with so many other people. Success only magnified Carol's difficulties. In 1977, when she should have been celebrating her first Academy Award nomination with the James Bond theme, Nobody does it Better, Carroll says she was paralyzed with fear.

[Interviewer]

The fact that you, Carol Bear Sager, you're at the Oscars. I remember this. You're at the Oscars. You hate your dress. You're looking around at everybody else. You're thinking you're too fat. You don't want to even, you know. So you miss so many moments by not actually being in the moment I was at.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

You're talking about when Nobody does it better. It was nominated for an Oscar, and I swear to all of you, I was partly praying we didn't win because I didn't feel that I could make it from my seat to the stage and be coherent or even get there. I don't know what I was feeling, but I felt disappointment and relief. At the exact time that they announced the winner was. You light up my life.

[Interviewer]

And you were somewhat relieved.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to be me. Now I will say when Bird and I run the Grammy for that's what Friends Are For, I was thrilled. I was delighted. But I still wasn't at peace with myself because two days, one week later, I was supposed to go in and be inducted into the Songwriters hall of Fame. And it was with, if you can imagine my idols. My idol was Carole King. She knows this. So it was with Carole King and Jerry Goffin, and get this, it was Paul McCartney and John Lennon, and we just won the Grammy. And I was supposed to go in and I sort of had a mini nervous breakdown. I couldn't move out of my bed. I couldn't go to New York to accept that, because I felt, and this sounds so crazy, but I feel somewhere back in time, I made a deal with the devil. Give me a fantastic life and I promise you I won't enjoy it, you know? And it's so hard and so sad to have missed not being present for so much of what other people enjoyed around me. But it all changed. That's why I wrote this book. It all changed. I mean, it's like when I met Bob, and I was in my late 40s when I met Bob, my life Changed. Because finally, in my life, and it's wrong to say it, took a man, I'd rather say to you, I found myself, and I went through this world. I traveled the globe, and I came into my own inner peace. And then I had inner peace. And then I met this man. But, no, I met this man, and he said he loved me, and he didn't care what I did or what my accomplishments were. And he meant it. And nobody had ever said that to me and meant it in my life. Nobody. I mean. And he didn't do it by giving me lavish things. He just did it by meaning what he said and doing what he said he was going to do. And suddenly I felt safe.

[Interviewer]

And feeling safe gave you the opportunity to do all the inner work.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

All the work that I had been doing suddenly clicked in. It's not like I wasn't doing the work, Oprah. I was in therapy at 21 years old. Not because I thought, oh, let me explore myself. No, I couldn't function. I couldn't. Sometimes I sat in my therapist's office for a day when she couldn't even see me. But she was kind enough to let me stay in her living room because I didn't know how to live in the world without fear. I mean, I was very damaged as a very little girl. Some people are more sensitive. Sometimes it's in the womb. Who knows? I don't blame anyone. I'm not. I forgive my mother completely. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to Oprah Winfrey if I didn't have my mother who brought me into this world. I forgive her because she made me push and strive to be seen and heard. And my father loved me unconditionally. I love him. There was no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you were loved also through your.

[Interviewer]

Work and your music and those of us you know, I say thank God that I was raised the way that I was. Because if I'd been brought up in a home that was loving and I was nurtured and I got all the things that I saw, I believe maybe you'd still be. Yeah, I would be in Mississippi or Milwaukee, Mississippi. I certainly wouldn't have been as.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I wouldn't be here.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I wouldn't be having this conversation with you for sure. Which I'm so grateful for.

[Interviewer]

When you look at the thread that's connected all the dots of your life, what do you think your real purpose has been?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Well, I think I've had a personal purpose.

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Which was to transform from what was a very dark childhood. And maybe I Could say, I'm sorry to say, first 35 years of my life, I wasn't even when I was having great success. And this is why I say people shouldn't compare their insides to anybody else's outsides. Because I think people could look at me and say, wow, I'll take her life. Look at her life.

[Interviewer]

Burt Bacharach.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Look at her life. Marvin Hamlet. I wasn't inhabiting all of me. I was only half in my life. There was part of me that was in fear. There was part of me that was so insecure, I could barely. So I would say my purpose, personal purpose, was to transform from dark to light.

[Interviewer]

I think my purpose of being able to love yourself.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

I think my purpose here on earth has been to connect to other people and have them feel less alone. Because I think my songs at their best made people feel as people came up and told me, oh, my God, you got me through a painful divorce or your first album, you know, they were little cult.

[Interviewer]

What a legacy to have made people feel less alone.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Less alone, less alone and more safe. And that's what I wanted all my life. So if I could put that out there so others could feel it, then I feel I did what I was supposed to do.

[Interviewer]

And do you feel that your life force is most fulfilled when you're writing or being creative?

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Completely. Completely. And when I'm giving back, now that's another way I feel very fulfilled when I can give back to others. And I've gotten so much from this life, and I'm so blessed. And, you know, you asked me a question. You asked me, how do you get to this place? Place Sooner.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

And I listened to you, and I put the answer in my book. I didn't say it was you, but I said a friend asked me, how do you get to this place sooner? And my answer was, you don't. You don't. It's. You get there. When you get there, you go through everything. You go through. You set an intention. You know, one day you want to be in that place, but you don't get there until you're there. And it took me that long to get to that place where I can say, I love my life, I love my friends, I love my family, I love my seven grandchildren, which I came from a very small family, and my mother was not inclusive of family. It was like, oh, no, they're coming, you know, oh, shut the doors, Your sister's coming, you know, So I didn't know how to open my heart to family. But it took till now for me to have appreciation for all that God had always laid in front of me. But I didn't know how to accept and say, thank you, God. I knew how to make a gratitude list, but I didn't know how to live it.

[Interviewer]

So now you're finally doing it.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes, I am. I really am.

[Interviewer]

You're finally doing it. You're doing the thing we started talking about. You're living with a full and open heart.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Yes. And that was the big thing. God helped me open my heart. Help me open my heart so that it can be available not just to the people I love, but to anyone who comes in my path. Let me be able to be loving. Let me be able to give something.

[Interviewer]

Thank you for sharing the story.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing the story.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe.

[Interviewer]

Rate and review this podcast.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation.

[Interviewer]

Thank you for listening.

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[Carole Bayer Sager]

Why? What's happening?

[Starbucks Advertiser]

The Walmart Wellness Event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.

[Carole Bayer Sager]

All that at Walmart.

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[Starbucks Advertiser]

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[Birch Lane Announcer]

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