Super Soul Special: Cookie Johnson: Why She Stood by Magic Through It All

Summary

Super Soul Special: Cookie Johnson – Why She Stood by Magic Through It All

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt episode of Oprah’s Super Soul, Oprah sits down with Cookie Johnson, wife of NBA superstar Magic Johnson, to discuss Cookie’s journey through public and private adversity following Magic’s HIV diagnosis in 1991. The conversation explores the depth of faith, love, and resilience required to support a partner through crisis, raise a family under public scrutiny, and navigate the challenges of fame and personal growth. Cookie’s reflections center around the story in her book, Believing in Magic, offering lessons on overcoming fear, the power of faith, and the unwavering support of family.

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Main Themes

• Standing strong in marriage and faith in the face of crisis
• The early days and public fear of AIDS and HIV
• Cookie’s personal spiritual journey and resilience
• The family’s navigation of Magic’s HIV diagnosis in the public eye
• Parenting, faith, and support for their son EJ’s identity
• Lasting lessons on love, trust, and commitment in relationships

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The HIV Announcement & Immediate Aftermath

• Context: Magic’s 1991 HIV diagnosis, public fear and ignorance about AIDS/HIV ([01:31]–[03:11])
• Oprah recounts: “Magic Johnson announced his HIV diagnosis... just two months after Cookie and Magic were married. That year, AIDS had become the number one cause of death for men between the ages of 25 and 44... At the time, Magic Johnson was one of the most famous athletes in the world...” ([01:31])
• Cookie reflects on the fear:

  “You know, that time, it was a really scary time because the people had just started hearing about, you know, AIDS... you just go straight to it’s AIDS. AIDS and it’s death. So it was a scary time... for a lot of people.” ([02:49])

• On the magnitude of Magic’s diagnosis:

  “He sort of became… the face for what was possible. I mean, I have to say that when that announcement... I don’t think anybody believed that we’d be sitting here 25 years with Magic, with us.” (Oprah, [03:11])

• Cookie’s honest admission:

  “We didn’t know either.” ([03:45])

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Cookie’s Motivation to Tell Her Story

• Timing of writing her memoir Believing in Magic:

  “Well, first of all, it’s just a good time for me in my life. You know, the kids are grown… I have my thing going on, he has his thing... [Women] came to tell me that… your story helped save my marriage… I have a family member with HIV, and your story helped us. And that kept happening time and time again.” ([04:08]–[05:05])

• The universality of her message:

  “It was… the faith part, the standing by, believing, overcoming adversity… that’s what people were connecting to.” ([05:05])

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The Power and Practice of Faith

• Cookie’s spiritual upbringing and turning to God after public humiliation from a broken engagement ([06:38]):

  “At that point, that’s when I had to reach back and find God.... I was close to a nervous breakdown... I just started praying, lord, you’re gonna have to help me with this.” ([06:38]–[07:34])

• On moving from ‘religion’ to ‘relationship’:

  “I always went to church... But this meant you got to dig in deep... you have to learn to develop a relationship with God... not just with religion, going to church, but with God himself.” ([20:09]–[20:32])

• The role of praise and prayer:

  “If you praise God, that he comes down, you know, he inhabits the praises of his people… I didn’t know any of that until I started going to Bible study and... understanding the Word.” ([20:32]–[21:19])

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The Day of Magic’s Diagnosis - Raw Recollections

• Cookie shares in detail the anxiety and fear awaiting Magic’s return home after the call ([08:24]–[09:34]):

  “It was crazy. You know, I thought... is he gonna break up with me again?... Is he sick?... And then I thought, oh my God, I’m pregnant. What about the baby?... It took every strength in me to keep standing.” ([08:43]–[10:36])

• The pivotal moment of support:

  “He said, ‘You can leave me if you want. I totally understand.’... That’s when I just kind of slapped him and said, ‘Are you kidding? No, I love you. We’re gonna figure this thing out together.’... The next thing we did was we got on our knees and we prayed and we asked God for a miracle and ask God to give us strength.” ([10:19]–[11:31])

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Trust, Pain, and Commitment in Marriage

• Discussing trust after learning about Magic’s past relationships ([15:07]–[17:55]):

  “You have to assume a certain amount of trust. So I decided to trust him... you can’t have a relationship without having trust. So you have to say to yourself, I’m just gonna have — I trust him.” ([16:22])

• On vows meaning something:

  “They did. And the love that was shared... because we, you know, he genuinely did love me and I genuinely loved him from, you know, from way back, which is why we kept coming back to each other... I met him as Irvin, not as Magic.” ([18:29])

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Faith as the Anchor Through Crisis

• On using faith to cope and seek miracles:

  “God got me through it and deepening my faith and reading the word and understanding... when you want God to give you a miracle, you have to understand how to get that miracle... you also got to work for it in a sense.” ([19:27])

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Parenting EJ - Love and Acceptance

• Memories of EJ’s childhood uniqueness and early signs of his identity ([25:54]–[28:07])

  “He wanted to wear a skirt like [granny] and twirl around in it all the time... And I was like, it’s okay if you do. I saw you, and I’m okay with it. I’m just letting you know that it’s okay with me.” ([25:54]–[28:38])

• Magic’s reaction to EJ coming out:

  “He said, your mother tells me that you might be gay... that’s not my first choice for you... But if that’s really who you are, then okay, I’ll accept it, you know?... the very next day, he went and grabbed him, and he told him how sorry he was, and he told him how much he loved him. And he said, no matter what, I am gonna always be here for you.” ([28:56]–[30:06])

• Reconciling faith and parenting:

  “That was a very hard thing for me... but, you know, finally I just said to myself, this child is innocent... it can’t be wrong... So I had to pray about it. And the answer I got back was love... I could love my son and support him on who he was and, you know, and I was okay with it because I made peace with that. I made peace with God with it. So I’m good.” ([30:45]–[31:40])

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Marriage Strains, Separation, and Reconnection

• Cookie discusses a period of separation as their roles diverged ([33:03]–[34:39]):

  “As a marriage… transitions and the journey goes on... the wife and the kids kind of move this way, and… your husband… he’s out there working... So it just all became about work for him...” ([33:23])

• On the role of faith, guidance, and promise in reconnecting:

  “Cookie says guidance from their pastor and friends, plus a lot of prayer, helped bring the couple back together. In Believing in Magic, Cookie writes, ‘We made an agreement. No matter what we were going through or how difficult it became, we would always talk about it. And that is a promise that we’ve kept.’” (Oprah, paraphrasing Cookie; [35:12])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the night of Magic’s diagnosis:
  “I just kind of slapped him and said, ‘Are you kidding? No, I love you. We’re going to figure this thing out together.’ …Then the next thing we did was we got on our knees and we prayed and we asked God for a miracle.” (Cookie Johnson, [11:04]–[11:31])

• On surviving public humiliation:
  “Your identity was tied to that.”
  “Totally tied to him. Totally tied to him. …That’s when I said, you know, I just started praying, Lord, you’re gonna have to help me with this.” (Oprah and Cookie, [07:34]–[07:36])

• On faith and miracles:
  “You want God to give you a miracle, you have to understand how to get that miracle… You also got to work for it in a sense. …I learned all those scriptures and those promises that God…” (Cookie Johnson, [19:27]–[20:07])

• On parenting and acceptance:
  “This child is innocent. He was like this when he was a baby. It can’t be wrong… The answer I got back was love… I could love my son… I made peace with God with it. So I’m good.” (Cookie Johnson, [30:45]–[31:40])

• On relationship resilience:
  “No matter what we were going through or how difficult it became, we would always talk about it. And that is a promise that we’ve kept.” (Cookie Johnson, quoted by Oprah, [35:12])

• On the book’s title:
  “He said, ‘No, I like it. It’s really true. And it shows who we are, basically…It represents us.’” (Cookie Johnson, [36:15]–[36:27])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & HIV Context: [01:31]–[03:11]
• Decision to Tell Her Story: [04:00]–[05:24]
• Cookie’s Spiritual Journey: [06:38]–[07:57], [19:27]–[21:44]
• The Diagnosis Night: [08:24]–[11:31]
• Trust and Vows: [15:07]–[18:29]
• EJ’s Story and Acceptance: [25:41]–[32:23]
• Marriage Strain & Reconnection: [33:03]–[36:27]

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

Through vulnerability and grace, Cookie Johnson illuminates the strength drawn from faith, the hard-won lessons of love and loyalty, and the courage to embrace family and self through public and private storms. Her story is a testament to choosing belief—in God, in a partner, in a child, and in oneself—when the world feels most uncertain.

Quote to remember:
“I believe it, and I still believe that he is healed… Of course, it wasn’t this big miracle where it’s completely gone, but, you know, God can heal people through doctors, through medicine.” (Cookie Johnson, [21:44])

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For anyone facing hardship in relationships, health, or family, Cookie’s journey offers hope, honesty, and a powerful reminder: Love and faith can redefine even the toughest challenges.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Magic Johnson announced his HIV diagnosis on November 7, 1991, just two months after Cookie and Magic were married. That year, AIDS had become the number one cause of death for men between the ages of 25 and 44, 157,000 people had died from what doctors considered an AIDS epidemic. At the time, Magic Johnson was one of the most famous athletes in the world, having won five NBA championships with the LA Lakers. Magic's press conference remains one of the most unforgettable moments in in sports history. In an instant, Cookie's life was turned upside down in front of the entire world. In private, she was brought to her knees for the first time. Cookie is telling her story in her new book, Believing in Magic.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I just want to remind the world that in 1991, people were still very, very afraid of AIDS. It was still like you can't touch a person, hug a person.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You know, right.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know, that time, it was a really scary time because the people had just started hearing about, you know, aids and they, and it's funny because they heard aids, but they never heard about hiv.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know, HIV is the virus that causes aids.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

We all thought it Was the same thing.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. You just go straight to its aids. Aids and it's death. So it was a scary time. It was a scary time for us. It was a scary time for, you know, a lot of people.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And then your husband, Irvin Magic Johnson, sort of became. Not. Sort of became the face for what was possible. I mean, I have to say that when that announcement. We all remember where we were. I don't think anybody believed that we'd be sitting here 25 years with Magic, with us. Nobody.

[Cookie Johnson]

No. They used to say, he's in denial. Yeah, that's the first thing right after that conference. All the, you know, press after that. Oh, he's in denial.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

He has no idea, you know, really.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

But the truth is, you all didn't know either.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And now you. You have 25 years, decided to tell your story. My story of love, overcoming adversity and keeping the faith, believing in magic. Great title, by the way.

[Cookie Johnson]

Thank you.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Great, great, great. Great title.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Why do you think it was important 25 years into the marriage for you to tell your story?

[Cookie Johnson]

Well, first of all, it's just a good time for me and my life. You know, the kids are grown and, you know, I started my business, so, you know, I have my thing going on. He has his thing going on. But when I started my denim line and I used to go around, I do personal appearances in stores and stuff.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Cookie John said, I'm wearing the jeans. That's why I'm in jeans. And she's all pretty fired up in the dress.

[Cookie Johnson]

I have to wear my jeans, my Cookie jeans.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So go ahead. I'm sorry.

[Cookie Johnson]

Okay. So when I did my personal appearances, women would come up to me and say, I came. I wanted to come say hello to you, because you have no idea, would pull me aside. They didn't come just to see the genes. They came to tell me that, you know, your story has inspired me. Your story helped save my marriage. Or your story, you know, I have a family member with hiv, and your story helped us. And that kept happening time and time again.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And you could see that it was even though people had similar stories, not necessarily HIV stories or AIDS stories, that the faith part, the standing by believing, overcoming adversity part that you speak of in believing in magic was what people were connecting to.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes, it was. Yes, it was. And because I never could have made it through without that faith, you know, and, you know, I could start telling you about the journey, about that, but because, you know, God was all in it and.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

But God is never not in it.

[Cookie Johnson]

No, but in my life, too. From the very beginning, I just felt like he's always drawn me to him. And so I felt that, you know, I had to find out what my purpose was. What did he want me to do?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Well, it's interesting because I just finished reading the book last night, and I was thinking, whoa, you are a determined woman. You must have had a call deeper than most people. You literally got stood up. Not at the altar, but you and Magic were engaged twice.

[Cookie Johnson]

Twice. Not once. Twice. A lot of people didn't know that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I always say when people show you who they are, believe them the first time. Then the second time. Then a third time he tried to break up a third time.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

At what point in the relationship did you have to go to your inner spiritual connection to something bigger than yourself, to God? At what point, literally in the relationship did you have to go to your knees?

[Cookie Johnson]

In the beginning, it was when we broke our first engagement. I was devastated. I was devastated because, you know, it was an announcement the whole world knew. And I was just in the beginning stages of starting to plan the wedding, so looking for church.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Humiliated.

[Cookie Johnson]

You were publicly, totally humiliated. Yeah. And then, you know, like, how do I show my face at work?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know, and after you've told everybody, it's like your whole world is crushed. At 26, you know, a young 26 year old, you thought your whole entire world was crushed. And at that point, that's when I had to reach back and find God. You know, God was always in my life. I was always going to church. I used to go to the Bible study sometime in high school. But then you kind of went away from it when you went to college, you know, hanging out and whatever. But at this point, I was close to a nervous breakdown. I felt really, how do I recover from this? How do I tell my friends how, you know, how do I show my cause?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Your identity was tied to that.

[Cookie Johnson]

Totally tied to him. Totally tied to him. And so that's when I said, you know, I just started praying, lord, you're gonna have to help me with this. And one day I was talking to my girlfriend who was married to a player also, and she told me her story. She said that when she went through that, that she just. She just decided that she needed to connect with God. And she said, and what you have to do is you have to figure out, you know, you have to go to God and then find out what is your purpose in life and what makes you happy. Yeah, let's focus on You.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And the point of me spending all this time talking about what happened before you got married is that you went through a lot. A lot of years, a lot of breakups, a lot of the. Then you get married, and two months after you're married.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

He comes home, he calls you and says, I need to talk to you.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

In that voice of, you know, something's wrong, but you don't know what it really is. What did you. From the time he called you to the time he actually got home, what did you think it was? Because your mind goes through.

[Cookie Johnson]

It was crazy. You know, I thought, is he gonna, like, Is it the marriage? Is he gonna break up with me again? What is it? You know? And then I thought, is it something with the coaches?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Is it something with the.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. Is he gonna change the team? He didn't like his coach. I didn't know. And then I thought, well, is he sick? Maybe he's sick, you know, because he did say that he had to go see the doctor. And I was like, what is that? I didn't know. I just, you know, fear just started, you know, taking over me, and I just didn't know what to do. And then I got the phone call, and it just, you know, I don't know, just fear took over me, and I just had to.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Cause you could tell in his tone that it was something.

[Cookie Johnson]

It was something bad.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So he comes home. Are you home alone when he comes home?

[Cookie Johnson]

Well, yeah, I'm home alone. And he finally walks through the door, and at this point, I'm kind of shaking because I'm like, what?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

What is it?

[Cookie Johnson]

What could it be? You know, and he came in slowly, and he just, you know, said, I don't know how else to tell you. I'm just going to tell you. And I'm like, what? You know, and it's so funny because I literally joked and said, what, you gonna tell me you got AIDS or something? You know, I literally joked and said that. And he was like, yeah, what? I have hiv, the virus that causes aids. And I was just like, oh, my God. It was like time stopped. I, like, froze. You know, I'm standing there looking at him, and I couldn't move. And a moment later, like, tears are flowing down and. And I was like, are you sure this is. You know, did they make a mistake? Is it. Yeah, you know, and he said, well, I'm going to. We have to go to the doctor tomorrow to double check. Well, he said he took a test, so he's waiting, you know, you gotta wait Till the test comes back, but I gotta take you tomorrow and get you tested. Then that was another fear.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

I'm like, oh, my God, you know, myself. And then I thought, oh, my God, I'm pregnant. What about the baby? You know, and it was just like it took every strength in me to keep standing. And then, you know, and then I just, you know, I don't know, I just grabbed him and I hugged him and, you know, we hugged each other and we just cried together, you know, and it was silence. And then he pulled himself back and he said, you know, you can leave me if you want. I totally understand. I would not want to put you through this. And that's when I was like, I just kind of like slapped him and said, are you kidding? No, I love you. We're going to figure this thing out. We're going to figure this thing out together, you know? And then the next thing we did was we got on our knees and we prayed and we asked God for a miracle and ask God to give us strength to make it through this.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Were you asking for a miracle? For a cure? Were you asking for life? Were you asking for or just all of the above?

[Cookie Johnson]

All of the above. But the first thing, of course, you're thinking of a miracle for, you know, a cure.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

[Cookie Johnson]

That he would miraculously be healed.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

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[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So then you go and get tested and it was 12 days. I read here.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes, that was 12 days.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Are you still believing in magic in those 12 days?

[Cookie Johnson]

No, I have to tell you, it was a little bit. A little bit of. A little bit of both. But you know, I never. Because you're in the midst of it and we're talking life and death. I never thought once that I didn't want to be with him and I didn't want to love him and I didn't want to stay married.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Never once did I Did you ask the why me? Question though? Did you not get angry?

[Cookie Johnson]

Not really. I was too scared to get angry. Okay. For some reason I had more. I got scared and had fear before I had anger.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Okay. Yeah, you jumped stage. Did you not want to know who.

[Cookie Johnson]

When, how, later on? Of course. You know, once things settle down a little bit. Then I started wondering, you know, and.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You describe a moment where he goes into the room he closes the door and he's calling all the.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right. And that, that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Calling all the women he's been with. And one of the things, I thought that that could have took a couple days.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, it did. No, I was gonna say, yeah, I did.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I would say that would not be.

[Cookie Johnson]

Like a wake up call for me. I was just calling. It take a couple days to call.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

All the women you've been with?

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that part I didn't like much. That part hurt, you know, a little bit.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

But was that a wake up call for you? Because you had been thinking, what?

[Cookie Johnson]

No. You know, it's really interesting, Oprah, Cause it's like, with our relationship being, you know, long distance most of the time, you know, it was like when we were together, everything was peachy cream, everything was great, you know, so when we weren't together, it's not that I said, hey, go do whatever you want to do. No, we had a real relationship. It wasn't like that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

But so were you under some kind of illusion that you were the only one?

[Cookie Johnson]

Well, here's what I had to do, which I think most women, at some point you're going to just have to do it. You have to assume a certain amount of trust. So I decided to trust him. I decided to trust him. And yes, I trusted that he was not out there doing all that. And then, you know, and then he had to trust me also. So, yes, I did trust him and think that he. I didn't think he was out there doing all that. No. You know, and then if he was, you know, when things came up, we broke up, you know, whatever, when things happened. But you can't have a relationship without having trust. So you have to say to yourself, I just, I'm just gonna have. I trust him.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So when he goes into the room and he's making all the phone calls, you were saying in the book believing in Magic, that that was, that was difficult for you and in some ways painful. I don't remember the exact words, but painful. And when I read that, I think, oh, painful. Because now you have the realization, you come face to face with the realization that there were a lot of other women other than yourself.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right. But we also have to remember too, that with HIV and AIDS, you could have been with somebody for 10, 10 years ago. Yeah. And it could have been that person.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

So you have to call people from 10 years almost. You know what I'm saying? So at what point, you know, are these, you know, old relationships? Are they new relationships? I don't know, I didn't ask all those questions. I just know he had to make some phone calls.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Make some phone calls.

[Cookie Johnson]

And you know, again, there was a lot of breakups in the middle of that road to there that you all had. Had. Yeah, there were two four year breakups by the time we got to this, the point that we were talking about right now.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Yeah, I got that.

[Cookie Johnson]

Marriage.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I got that.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So one of the reasons why you slapped him is because you were committed to the vows that you had said just two months earlier. Those vows meant to death, do us part through sickness and in health. Meant something to you.

[Cookie Johnson]

They did. And the love that was shared and the love, because we, you know, he genuinely did love me and I genuinely loved him from, you know, from way back, which is why we kept coming back to each other. It's just that deep love that we had in the beginning because I met him as Irvin, not as magic. And he was that fun loving, very generous guy with the big laugh and the big smile and the big eyes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

That is who he is.

[Cookie Johnson]

That's who I fell in love with.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So did faith. A belief in God, trusting that it would all be all right. Is that what got you through that time? Because obviously he started a regimen of antiretrovirals. The rest of the world doesn't even know what that is.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I think because of Magic Johnson, we got introduced to that in a way that we would have, wouldn't have understood. He's like our family member getting treatment. But what actually got you through it?

[Cookie Johnson]

God. God got me through it and deepening my faith and reading the word and understanding, you know, like when you want God to give you a miracle, you have to understand how to get that miracle. You can't just say, lord, give me a miracle and it's just going to happen like you can. But, you know, you also got to work for it in a sense. So you have to understand his Word and what does he say about faith? So you find out that that's one of your scriptures that you can hold on to when you're believing for a miracle with health or something like that, when you want to be healed. And so you learn. I learned all those scriptures and those promises that God, you know, we're actually.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Going to Bible study, correct?

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, I started then. Yeah. I didn't used to go to S on. I was. I always went to church, but it was religion. I went to church, you know, on a Sunday and I felt like a good girl, you know. But this meant you got to dig in deep. I need, you know, I need. Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

What does my religion and my faith really mean? How does that show up for me?

[Cookie Johnson]

That's right. But how do you use it?

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

Like. And how do you develop? I had to learn. I had to understand, too. And that's what my friend was telling me. You have to learn to develop a relationship with God, you know, not just with religion, going to church, but with God himself. Develop a relationship with the two of you and how you do that. You pray and you praise. But I didn't know that until I started going to Bible study. And they teach you that, you know, like, they taught us the proper way to pray. That they taught me, you know, praising him and how if you praise God, that he comes down, you know, he inhabits the praises of his people. So when you praise him, he just comes down and he's right there with you and, you know, right in the midst of you. And, you know, I didn't know any of that until I started going to Bible study and started studying the Bible and understanding the Word.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Well, as you're saying that, it makes me think of one of my favorite books, Alice Walker, the Color Purple, and what the character Shug says to Celia at the end of the book. God gets pissed if you don't notice the color Purple. And Celie says whatever she says. And then Shug says, because what God loves most is praise. What God loves is.

[Cookie Johnson]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

God loves praise.

[Cookie Johnson]

That's like the answer to key to everything, really. And so I gained strength from him, you know, from the Word and leaning on those words and using those words all the time. And even though Oprah. I know I said that my husband's going to be healed, and. And I believe it, and I still believe that he is healed, you know, 25 years later. You know, of course, it wasn't this big miracle where it's completely gone, but, you know, God can heal people through doctors, through medicine.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You know, the medicine was available to help him live a, quote, normal life, and he became the face of that in a way that, I mean, so I think God used him. No question about that.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes. Yes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

For our time.

[Cookie Johnson]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yep. Yep. And sometimes our trials are for a reason.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

[Cookie Johnson]

And it's for us to learn, but it's also for us to give back to the world, you know, to whatever that lesson was.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yes.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Irvin Johnson III, known as EJ, was born just seven months after Magic Johnson announced his HIV diagnosis. EJ, like his mother, was not infected with the virus. In 2013, a video of EJ holding hands with a male friend was. Went viral. The day after the video was released, Magic showed his support for his son. EJ would go on to star in two reality shows, Rich Kids of Beverly Hills and EJ nyc, where he became known for his gender bending style.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Let's talk about ej. You begin the chapter talking about the twirling skirt with the colors that your mother was wearing and how fascinated he was by the twirling skirt that your mother was wearing. Right?

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. This was about three years old. And it was after his glasses. The minute he got his glasses, Oprah, he just started walking around the room like, oh, my God, really? Look at the colors. Look at the things, you know, and he would start touching things. So, like, he would. If I had this on, he would come over and look at the prints and feel the fabric. And, you know, he loved things like that. And my mother wore like, full skirts then, because that was in style and he just loved. And he wanted to wear a skirt like her and twirl around in it all the time. And he would say, granny, put on that skirt and let's troll. Let's dance, you know, and she would twirl around with him.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You know, you tell a very funny story of being in T ball and waiting for him to get the ball.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And he's like, over picking some yellow.

[Cookie Johnson]

Flowers going, mommy, look at the flowers. I picked them for you. And I'm like, oh, my God. Boy, get the ball. Did you get the ball, son? That's what I knew. Okay. My husband said, okay, stop. No more sports for him.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

He's good.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Was Magic upset that he wasn't the sportsman?

[Cookie Johnson]

No, he wasn't upset about that because he knows from time to time that, you know, a lot of athletes, children.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Want their kids to.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. They have to live in that limelight. They have to live in that, and it's too hard. So when he saw that, he didn't have a problem with that at all. You know, he said, let him do what he wants to do. But I don't think he realized at that time that what he wanted to do was be. Wear girly stuff and be girly.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Then there was a moment in Hawaii. I think you were on vacation.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. By that time, he was an adolescent. He was probably 12 or so. And I saw him with one of his friends, and they were sitting in the chairs and. And, you know, that's around the time when they Started looking at boys and girls and whatever. Yeah. I think it was 12 or 13. And these boys walked by, and I was sitting behind them. I don't even know if they knew I was back there. And the boys walked by, and he was like, oh, I like that. And I'm thinking, where's the girl? That was a boy. And then it dawned on me, okay, so this is it. He's not gonna change. He hasn't changed.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Not dawn. Really?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Confirmed.

[Cookie Johnson]

Confirmed for me.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Moms know.

[Cookie Johnson]

And, you know, and when a child is like that from the very beginning. Because then you start going back to three years old, four years old, five years old. He never changed. And so I pulled him aside and I told him. I asked him about it, and he said. I said, I saw you watching that guy. I said, so, do you like boys? And he said. He just looked at me. He got really quiet. He didn't know how to answer me. I could tell he was thinking. And he said. Finally he said, yeah, maybe. And I was like. I said, it's okay if you do. I saw you, and I'm okay with it. I'm just letting you know that it's okay with me.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know? And he said.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Because that is the biggest fear that every gay person I've ever talked to. Because we used to do coming out day on the open show. The biggest fear everybody has is that I will be rejected and I won't be loved.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right?

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So you told Magic you had to tell your husband.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. After I had that conversation with him, I said, I'm gonna go tell him because. Cause he needs to be okay with this, too. And he's not okay with it. Not at first. Not at first. So he brought him in the room and he told him, you know, he said, your mother tells me that, you know, you might be gay. And he said, so I just want you to know that that's not my first choice for you. And I'm not really happy about that. But if that's really who you are, then okay, I'll accept it, you know?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

But was he angry? Was he.

[Cookie Johnson]

He wasn't angry. He was firm.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Was there lots of tears? Lots of drama?

[Cookie Johnson]

A little bit of tears. Just a little bit on my part, mostly. EJ held him back a little bit. I could see the sadness on his face. But he left.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Your father says, I'm disappointed.

[Cookie Johnson]

You know, I said, irvin, I can't. I can't believe you did that. I said, because you gotta remember, he is. He is who he is. And he's gonna be who he is, you know, you can't change him like that.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Then the next day, he went back.

[Cookie Johnson]

The very next day, he went and grabbed him, and he told him how sorry he was, and he told him how much he loved him. And he said, no matter what, you know, I'm getting tears in my eyes.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

It makes me teary, too.

[Cookie Johnson]

He said, no matter what, I am gonna always be here for you, he said. And I. You know, he said it was just a shock to me, and I didn't know how to react to it, and I'm so sorry, you know. And then they both cried and hugged, and then that was. That was it. And from that day forward, we were both.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

So here's the big question. You're Christian. You believe in the word. You live by the word. How did you reconcile what Christianity says about being gay.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

With your loving of your son and still remaining Christian?

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. That was a very hard thing for me. That was a very, very hard thing for me. I tried everything, but, you know, finally I just said to myself, this child is innocent. He was like this when he was a baby. It can't be wrong. It can't be wrong, you know?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And again, you were brought to your knees.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yes. So I had to pray about it. And so this was one of those moments where I had to go directly to God. And I prayed, and God, you know, the answer I got back was love. And he said, you know, I give you all great gifts, and the greatest of that gift is love. And so that's when I knew I could love my son and, you know, support him on who he was and, you know, and I was okay with it because I made peace with that. I made peace with God with it. So I'm good.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Yeah, it's out there. So recently, I think there was some kind of crazy rumor that he was transitioning, and he responded to it. Is Izzy going to transition?

[Cookie Johnson]

No. He's not just a gay man. He's just young, and he's experimental. You know what I mean? All kids are young and experimental. And he loves fashion. So for him, it's more about 5 fashion than it is about transitioning. Right now, it's more about fashion, and he's never mentioned that to me, that that's what he's interested in or wants to do.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

If he came home and said, I now want to be a woman, would you be okay with that?

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, I would have to deal with it. We would have to deal with it, and we would do what we needed to do to take care of it. You know what I mean?

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You'd be back on your knees.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would be there to support. Yeah. Yep. Because I know deep down that's, you know, who he is now.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

What is actually also, I think, not shocking, but probably surprising to a lot of people who will read this is that after you'd been through everything, everything you'd been standing by and going through the adversity, there came a point in your marriage where the marriage was really strained and you all separated. And how y' all did that in the tabloids and find out. I don't know. I know. How did that happen in the tabloids? I get that story.

[Cookie Johnson]

Well, because it was really quick. It was like two weeks.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Okay.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah, it was two weeks. But, yeah, you know, as a marriage, you know, transitions and the journey goes on. What happens is sometimes, you know, the wife and the kids kind of move this way, and. And, you know, your husband, and he's out there working. Cause you were mothering, and I wasn't working at the time.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

So I was. I was most all into mothering, and he's into business. Yeah. And so it kind of pulled us apart a little bit. And on his side, he was building his businesses. He was getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and his ego was getting bigger and bigger. And, you know, so it just all became about work for him. You know, everything was about work and how great we're doing and this and that, you know, so that he would just. He was always.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

He was creating another identity.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. And another world, you know, in another world, like, he was always, you know, you know, the people at work are getting together to watch the football game, or we are at work. We're going here. We're doing that. And then he started going out with them more, you know, going out partying and stuff like that. Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You write about a really, really.

[Cookie Johnson]

So the day he got his start, there was a big party. Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Hollywood Walk of Fame.

[Cookie Johnson]

Yeah. And then it just kind of came to a head for me, you know, and we were at the party, and he was dancing with some girls. I was walking out. I was like, okay, so, you know, I'll dance. Let's dance together, or whatever. He's like.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

And what you establish in the book is that you all are, you know, like seven. And I do this. You go to a party, you go your separate ways. But in the end, when it comes to the dance floor, you know, we're gonna get together.

[Cookie Johnson]

Right.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

I'm not, like, by, you know, I'm not, like, tied to your side, not by your side every month. So you all had that kind of.

[Cookie Johnson]

Relationship, but this particular time, it was like, you know, I don't want to. You know, I don't want you dancing with me. I'm a dance with these people over here. I'm just. I'm always, you know. So that kind of got to me because, you know, it had been boiling, boiling, boiling, boiling. Anyway, and I lost it and said some things, and then he said some things. And so we were. That was our first kind of spat in public kind of thing. And then I left. I got. My friend took me home. I just left. And then we had a conversation about it at home afterwards. And, you know, we both have felt like we were just kind of growing in two different ways.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Cookie says guidance from their pastor and friends, plus a lot of prayer, helped bring the couple back together. In believing in magic, Cookie writes, we made an agreement. No matter what we were going through or how difficult it became, we would always talk about it. And that is a promise that. That we've kept.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

You know what's so interesting? When I first saw this as a title, I thought, wow, I think this is what every person, certainly every man and woman in relationship really want, is for somebody to believe in them. What did he think when you told him that this was going to be your title? What did he think or say?

[Cookie Johnson]

You know, it's interesting because we play with it a lot, you know, and he's very supportive of me being my own woman and doing my own thing. And so when we talked about that and I brought it up to him, he was like, but it's really true. He's like, I like it because it's really true. And I was surprised because, you know, I thought he was gonna say, no, this is about you.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Yeah.

[Cookie Johnson]

But he said, no, I like it. It's really true. And it's. It shows who we are, basically.

[Interviewer/Supportive Voice (possibly Oprah or co-host)]

Wow.

[Cookie Johnson]

It represents us.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

Thank you.

[Cookie Johnson]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

[Interviewer (likely Oprah or a podcast host)]

It was fun, fun, fun, fun.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

I don't mean to interrupt your meal, but I saw you from across a cafe, and you're the Geico Gecko, right?

[Cookie Johnson]

In the flesh.

[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

Oh, my goodness. This is huge. To finally meet you. I love Geico's Faster Friendly claim service.

[Cookie Johnson]

Well, that's how Geico gets 97% customer satisfaction.

[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

Anyway, that's all. Enjoy the rest of your food.

[Cookie Johnson]

No worries. So are you just gonna watch me eat?

[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

Oh, sorry. Just a little starstruck. I'll be on my way.

[Cookie Johnson]

If you're gonna stick around, just pull up a chair.

[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

You're the best.

[Cookie Johnson]

Get more than just savings. Get more with Geico.

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

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[Geico Customer/Spokesperson]

Okay?

[Cookie Johnson]

Why? What's happening?

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

The Walmart Wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.

[Cookie Johnson]

All that at Walmart?

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart?

[Cookie Johnson]

Check the calendar.

[Zepbound Medication Warning Voice]

Saturday, September 13th.

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Walmart wellness event. You knew?

[Zepbound Medication Warning Voice]

I knew.

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