Super Soul Special: Elizabeth Lesser: The Healing Power of Love

Summary

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Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Elizabeth Lesser – The Healing Power of Love

Date: May 13, 2026
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Elizabeth Lesser

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Episode Overview

This deeply moving conversation delves into the transformative power of love—how it reveals itself during times of crisis and healing, and how it ultimately connects us to our truest selves and to others. Oprah welcomes Elizabeth Lesser—author, co-founder of the Omega Institute, and spiritual seeker—to reflect on her recent life experience donating bone marrow to her sister Maggie. Together, they explore spiritual awakening, healing through love, the veils covering the soul, aging, and what truly matters in human relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Personal Journey of "Broken Open" (01:30–04:04)

• Oprah introduces Elizabeth’s background and her legacy as a spiritual leader, author, and co-founder of the Omega Institute.
• They revisit the core message of Elizabeth’s book Broken Open—that hardship can "crack us wide open" and bring profound growth.
• Oprah: “Oftentimes things happen in our lives…those things have the opportunity to crack us wide open.” (03:02)

2. Facing Family Crisis: The Bone Marrow Transplant (04:04–06:35)

• Elizabeth shares how her sister Maggie’s cancer returned after seven years, leaving a high-risk bone marrow transplant as the only option.
• Elizabeth: “We have been on this journey…my stem cells engraft into her and become her.” (05:02)
• Emotional details of the transplant process, including Maggie’s visit during Elizabeth’s stem cell donation.

3. Healing Emotional Baggage Before Healing the Body (08:21–12:48)

• Elizabeth realized the significance of being emotionally and spiritually clear before physically donating to her sister.
• She and Maggie undertook a “spiritual therapeutic session” to release old, unspoken pain and rivalry—a process aided by a therapist.
• Elizabeth: “Most of the stuff we think about each other, we’ve made up. They’re stories…if ever there was a time to do it, now’s the time.” (10:40)
• The process changed their relationship: “What do I know for sure? I know my sister loves me, and I know she knows I love her.” (12:24)

4. The Universal Power of Love and Presence (12:48–14:29)

• Elizabeth reflects on how the experience touched every part of her life and relationships.
• Oprah: “Don’t wait. There are relationships waiting to be healed…in your own backyard, in your office, in your families…” (14:09)

5. Embracing Enoughness & Authentic Self (14:32–15:54)

• The key lesson: showing up as herself was enough for her sister and, by extension, for others in her life.
• Elizabeth: “Our souls, our golden radiant core, is enough. That’s what people want…Just come be with me and be your true self.” (14:32–15:54)

6. On Aging, Simplicity, and the Changing Perspective at 60 (17:30–22:19)

• Oprah shares her insights as she turns 60, recognizing the liberation in saying no to societal expectations.
• Elizabeth echoes the feeling of becoming more herself and simpler as she ages: “I’m both more who I am, and I don’t really feel like anyone. I just feel part of everything.” (18:55–19:30)

7. The Soul, the "Thousand Veils," and Spiritual Practice (23:15–27:46)

• Discussion inspired by Sufi teacher Hazrat Inayat Khan: the soul is “covered by a thousand veils.”
• Elizabeth: “You have a soul…that is your song. It’s precious, it’s yours, it’s unique...spiritual practice isn’t about getting anything. It’s about uncovering.” (24:08–25:52)
• Removal of veils occurs through psychotherapy, healing the body, prayer, meditation, and even joy.

8. Distinguishing Spirituality From Religion (32:30–33:44)

• Elizabeth defines spirituality as the fearless seeking of truth; religion as humanity’s attempt to answer spiritual questions—sometimes beautifully, sometimes divisively.
• Elizabeth: “Spirituality are the questions, and religion are attempts to answer them.” (33:38)

9. Life’s Deepest Lessons: Love, Suffering, and Awakening (33:44–36:41)

• Elizabeth says the hardest lesson is love and acceptance without judgment.
• On suffering: “We create suffering, but once we’ve created it, it’s to help us learn.” (33:57)
• Joy is just as powerful a teacher as suffering.
• Staying “awake” is about being aware of your effect on others and the world—a constant feedback loop of karma.

10. On Death and the Afterlife (35:08–36:07)

• Elizabeth likens dying to embarking on an unknown journey: there’s resistance and fear, then adventure and surprise.
• Oprah cites Whitman: “It’s gonna be such a surprise.” (36:02)

11. The Lasting Message: Be Love (36:10–36:41)

• Elizabeth: “When in doubt about what to do, and we often are, be loving. Don’t be phony about it, but love. It’s the great answer to everything.” (36:10)
• Oprah: “Be love. That’s what I know for sure. That is a good game plan.” (36:31–36:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You think, I’m going to learn from this difficult experience…tidied up, done that. But that’s not the way life is. You’re always given these opportunities to either break open into the mystery or to shut down.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (04:04)
• “I want to purify my cells of any bad intention toward her, and I want her to totally accept me…so we come into a field of love and acceptance together.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (08:28–09:57)
• “What do I know for sure? I know my sister loves me, and I know she knows I love her.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (12:24)
• “Our souls…are enough. That’s what people want…just come be with me and be your true self.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (14:32)
• “You have a soul…your song to sing here on this plane. That is your soul. It’s precious, it’s yours, it’s unique. But you come here to Earth and then you’re raised by parents…Veil. Veil. Veil.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (24:08–25:52)
• “Spirituality are the questions, and religion are attempts to answer them.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (33:38)
• “Gratitude is the single best way I have ever discovered of changing your personal vibration.”
  — Oprah (27:46)
• “When in doubt about what to do…be loving. Don’t be phony about it, but love. It’s the great answer to everything.”
  — Elizabeth Lesser (36:10)

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Timestamped Highlights

| Timestamp | Segment | Topic Summary | |------------|-------------------------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:30–04:04| Introduction & Context | Elizabeth’s background and Oprah’s goals for the conversation | | 04:04–06:35| Family Crisis | Maggie’s recurrence of cancer and bone marrow transplant decision | | 08:21–12:48| Process of Emotional Healing | Healing their sisterhood before the transplant; transformative therapy | | 14:32–15:54| The Value of Enoughness | Being present is enough; showing up as your true self | | 17:30–22:19| On Aging & Simplicity | Reflections on turning 60 and what truly matters | | 23:15–27:46| The Veiled Soul | Uncovering the soul; spiritual practice as unveiling one’s true self | | 32:30–33:44| Spirituality vs. Religion | Questions vs. answers, and the pitfalls of dogma | | 33:44–36:41| Love, Suffering, Awakening | Life’s hardest lessons; the role of love and acceptance | | 35:08–36:07| Reflections on Death | The afterlife as surprise and adventure | | 36:10–36:41| Final Message | “Be love”—the ultimate spiritual practice and guidance |

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Thematic Takeaways

• Love is the ultimate healer—not only in extraordinary circumstances, but in everyday relationships.
• Authenticity—showing up as your true self—is transformative and is “enough.”
• Spiritual seeking is about removing the “veils” that obscure our soul, not acquiring something new.
• Aging brings clarity and liberation to define life on your own terms.
• Both suffering and joy can be teachers if we are willing to “break open” and grow.
• Being love, daily and in ordinary interactions, is a world-changing practice.

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For anyone on the path of healing, personal growth, or seeking more meaningful connection, this conversation offers wisdom, encouragement, and powerful reminders that love—simple and sincere—can be our greatest spiritual practice.

Transcript

[Progressive/Aura Advertiser]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Elizabeth Lesser has been on the cutting edge of the personal growth movement and for more than three decades. She was born in 1952 in New York City. She was the second oldest of four daughters. Her family wasn't particularly religious, but as a child Elizabeth found herself drawn to spiritual life. She would pray in secret and tag along with her Catholic neighbors to church. That hunger for a spiritual path reawakened while Elizabeth was a student at Barnard College. A free spirit, she began visiting churches and exploring Eastern traditions like Zen Buddhism, firmly establishing her lifelong vocation as a seeker. Her search for something more eventually led her to upstate New York where she helped form a spiritual commune. She married young and had two boys. In 1977 she co founded the Omega Institute. Set in the hills of the Hudson Valley, it's become one of the leading education centers on spirituality, creativity and social change in America. Elizabeth is the best selling author of two of my favorite books, the Seeker's Making youg Life A Spiritual Adventure and Broken How Difficult Times Can Help Us Grow. We had you on the Oprah show several times for one of my favorite books called Broken Open. And you know, what I was trying to deliver or offer to to the Oprah show audience at the time was this idea that you convey in the book so well that oftentimes things happen in our lives when challenging things happen in our lives, that those things have the opportunity to crack us wide open. And so we've had wonderful conversations about that. But one of the reasons why I wanted you here, to invite you under my oaks is because I think you, probably because of what you've been through personally in the past year, are more cracked open and could do, I don't know, an epilogue to that book now.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Could you not?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yes, I could.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You wrote it and now you have lived it in a way. Can you share with the super soulers what you've been through?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, I wrote it because I had lived it. You know, like you think I'm going to learn from this difficult experience. My first big one was divorce. And then you think, good, tidied up, done that, learned that. But that's not the way life is. You're always given these opportunities to either break open into the mystery or to shut down. So about seven years ago, my younger sister Maggie was diagnosed with a rare form of lymphoma that's very hard to treat. And she was treated with chemotherapy. And seven years later it came back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The news of the recurrence was particularly difficult because there was only one option for treatment, a high risk bone marrow transplant. The lengthy and painful procedure would involve harvesting stem cells from a matching donor and transferring them to Maggie's body. It was a last resort, but offered Maggie her only hope. The critical next step, finding a donor.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And so we all got tested and I tested the match. My other sisters did not. And so we have been on this journey, my sister and I, where I had my bone marrow sick, stem cells harvested and frozen, and then she had intensive chemotherapy and later radiation and more chemotherapy getting her to a place where she had none of her own stem cells left, all killed off by chemotherapy and radiation so she could receive my new ones. And now she's in the long journey of having my stem cells engraft into her and become her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Interesting and heroic on both of your parts. So I remember you sent me an email, which I have here. It was quite something to see my blood leaving my body, entering a machine and being spun and then coming back into my body over and over for five hours. At first I was nervous and also the poking around in the veins had been painful, but once I calmed down it it was really quite miraculous. Maggie came to visit midway into the procedure. She got to kiss the bag of stem cells that was collecting and hanging above me. Having her there made it all seem very real and very meaningful and dare I say, holy what a day. What a day. What a

[Progressive/Aura Advertiser]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

So what was going through you emotionally, spiritually at the time?

[Aura Advertiser]

Well,

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I love science. So I had educated myself about the process and I felt first of all, what an honor, what a privilege to be able to actually save someone's life. And I took it really seriously. And I know for myself. I know how when I'm stressed, when I'm upset, when I'm angry. I know it affects my own body. I know my state of mind affects my own cells. And science is researching this now, the mind, body connection. And so I thought, those are going to be my cells in her body. I want to purify my cells of any bad intention toward her, and I want her to totally accept me. And we're sisters, we're loving sisters, but we have a long history of competition, of not being in good places together all through childhood. All through adulthood. So I asked her, and she's not this type of person. I've always been the weird spiritual kind of person. And she's much more of a. She's a nurse and a scientist. And I said, would you do a session with me, a spiritual therapeutic session where we come into a field of love and acceptance together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I think this is so important that psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, not just physically, am I going to give you my cells, but psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, I want to be clear. I want everything between us to be clear so that my cells will be clear and you will be in the clearest space in which to accept my offering.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And if you have any feelings of rejection toward me as a person, which we all do as humans.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And especially as siblings. A lot of baggage of childhood jealousies and honest spoken.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did you know to do that?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I know that we all go around carrying these stories in our heads about each other.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Most of the stuff we think about each other, we've made up. They're stories. And even though we're both loving and good and smart people, we had really never cleared a lot of stuff. And I thought, wow, isn't this amazing? It takes someone almost dying for me to come into a whole and beautiful and cleaned and loving relationship. But if ever there was a time to do it, now's the time to do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

First of all, how did it change your relationship with your sister?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did it.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Totally, totally. And it just. Just thinking about just makes me cry.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Fills you up.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

It fills me up because we had the help of a wonderful therapist who really brought us through the stages of our life from childhood all the way up where we kind of cleared each year, and the misconceptions each of us had about the other petty things. Like, I didn't like that we had to share our birthday party, and you made mom do that. Things like that. And it was like, really? No, that's not. Every step of the way to more serious things. All that happened was, I didn't mean that. I love you. I love you. All I want to say is I love you. And it changed everything between us because I know now that she loves me and she knows I love her. And we kind of knew that, but we didn't really know it like I know it. What do I know for sure? I know my sister loves me, and I know she knows I love her. So I was able to give her my cells. I was able to give them in love and release them into a field of love. And love heals. And I felt that's the best I can do. And now I give it up to the universe.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Would you say this experience has transformed you as it is also transforming Maggie?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mm.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yeah, it has. All holy and difficult, arduous experiences are there to transform us if we so choose.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To break us open.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

To break us open. Mm. And I felt it gave me a lot of courage to come more fully into my own skin because what I went through with Maggie, in cleaning up our relationship and getting rid of the stories, I felt this sense of, like, I want to do this in my life as much as I can with everyone. I don't want to live in the storyline anymore because my relationship with everyone else isn't as life and death.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

But it's important who we are with each other, what we say, how we show up at work. You know, people sometimes think, I want to do important work in the world. I want to. When I'm done being an insurance person in this office, I want to go out to Africa and save people's lives. And I think, and I say, especially now, don't wait. There are relationships waiting to be healed. And the person in the cubicle right

[Oprah Winfrey]

next to you in your own backyard.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

In your own backyard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Correct.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And your place of work. There are conversations you haven't had, stories that need to be unraveled. And if we all do that in our backyard, in our office, in our families, have the difficult conversations, miracles happen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what has this process taught you?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

It's taught me that I am enough. Just who I am. Just showing up for my sister, who I am is enough. And it really brought me very deeply into that, that teaching that my soul is enough, not what I do, not who I am. When I showed up there with my sister, she didn't care my credentials or where I'd been or who I know or what book I was writing. She wanted me. And that was very hard for me to really wrap my heart around. You mean I'm enough for you? You really want me? And I think we all struggle with that like we think we have to be somebody, do something, say something. When really our souls, our golden radiant core is enough. That's what people want. They don't want you to impress them with with your wisdom. And they don't even want you to do anything for them. Just come be with me and be your true self. Be your genuine self. We want each other. I want you. I just want the real deep you.

[Progressive/Aura Advertiser]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Aura Advertiser]

Most people don't realize how much of their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where Aura comes in. Aura actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But Aura goes beyond data protection. With one app you get a vpn, antivirus, password manager, spam, call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to 5 million million in identity theft insurance. All backed by 24,7 US based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or even just a vpn. Aura gives you all of it together at the same price. Competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial [e-mail] safety. Protect yourself [e-mail] safety.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Maybe it's because we're sisters in our 60s. As you know, as we're taping this, this is on the eve of my 60th birthday. And as we were walking down to the Oaks, I was saying to you, it's the birthday that I've actually thought the most about. It's the one I've taken the most seriously. And at one point I was planning a birthday party. And I was doing this because I recognize that the reason why I was having this big birthday party is because someone had asked me months ago, what are you gonna do for your birthday? And I think I just blurted out, oh, I'm gonna have the biggest birthday bash ever. Now, instead of just saying, I really don't know, I hadn't thought about it, I felt that everybody else is thinking about it, so I should do something. So I started this idea of this party and recognized that a big party with over 400 people was the last experience on earth I really wanted to have. I mean, if I were leaving the earth tomorrow, that would be at the bottom of the list of things I would want to do.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

We begin to think like that at 60, because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is that what happens?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I think so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because I was like, that isn't what I want to do. What do I want to do? I really just want to be whatever. I'll have a cup of tea, a cup of chai, a cup of. I'll be with Stedman, I'll be with the dogs, I'll call over a few friends. But 450, nah, that's gonna give me great anxiety. I will have to tell you. That's one of the most liberating things I've done.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, I think it's appropriate for at least the way I've been feeling in turning 60 is I'm feeling both more simple and more grand. But the grand is a soulful grand grandeur, which is ever more myself, but also nobody. I'm both more who I am, and I don't really feel like anyone. I just feel part of everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow, that's really wonderful. That's really wonderful. If 60 means anything, it really, really means being able to sit within the seat of your soul, inside yourself, and say, what do I really want?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So when you think back to your younger self, we were walking down here talking about, gee, both of us are 60. You're 61, I'm 60. Did you imagine that 61 would be like this? That you would feel this great, that you would look this great?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

No, no, I imagined 60. 60 is the first age that feels kind of like old, you know, when I turned 50, it didn't feel that way at all. But I feel. I definitely feel the gravitas of age. You know, I feel like maybe I do know something. But as I said, I also feel free. More free. It doesn't even matter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that is what I wish for myself. I wish for the freedom of other people's expectations and other people's anything. But also, I would agree, I feel that it is significant and worthy of sitting with it and acknowledging it and being with it and knowing.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And when people say, do you tell. Do your grandchildren call you Grandma? As if that would make me feel old, I'm like, well, what else are they gonna call me? And. And do you tell people you're 60 and do you feel like an elder? And I want to get comfortable with. Yeah, I'm an elder. I'm an elder. And I feel more and more like my role is to be there for people coming up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I do too.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I have such a great life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Who can you lift up? But also, this is what I also refuse to allow to happen to me because I know it will in the media, is for people to put you in a box as to what that is supposed to look like. I think it's really important for you, for me, for anybody who's turning 40, 50, 60, 70, 75, Jane Fonda, 80, Gloria Steinem is to define that in your own terms and to make it your own. Because that is what women have fought for.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is what women have fought for, is for you to have the right to make it whatever you want it to be. Yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And the easiest way to do that is just check in every day, who am I, what do I feel? And to do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So your ability to introduce other people through Omega, through your own learnings, has that been one of the reasons why your own spiritual growth has been so profound, do you think?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yeah, you know, when you. They say you learn the most when you teach.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah, I certainly do.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And they also say you teach what you need to learn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I taught that for myself. And also one of the things I

[Oprah Winfrey]

teaching, it keeps me in the vein of it. It keeps me constant with it. It keeps reminding me, it keeps me

[Elizabeth Lesser]

and looking for language to wrap around concepts that really are not describable. You know, what is the soul and God and cosmos. Our brains are poor divening of the grandeur of what's really happening. So to search for words that are plain and fun and easy to use, that makes it easier for me to practice. And that's why I'm blessed that I've had the chance.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're the one who introduced me to Hazrat Inayat Khan, who was one of the leaders of the Sufi movement. I would say if there's a religion that I would. It's not even a religion though, is it?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, it's a branch of Islam, but it's really gone way beyond that. It's a way of life more than a religion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You sent me an email recently by Hazrat in Yat Khan about how the soul is covered by a thousand veils. So Elizabeth and I have these conversations where she'll send me a passage or read a book or a poem or a Piece of thing and say, what do you think of this? And I had to read that thing over four or five times out loud, translating itself, translating it to myself, trying to get my brain to comprehend. But what do you think that means? The soul is covered by a thousand veils.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I think it means everything you need to know is in that line. Everything you need to know is in the line. Your soul is covered by a thousand veils. What it means to me is that you have a soul, first of all. And that soul is like the music. God's music. Your song. Your song to sing here on this plane. That is your soul. It's precious, it's yours. It's unique. But you come here to Earth and then you're raised by parents. None of our parents are perfect. You're kind of maybe a loud and lively kid. They think you should be quiet and genteel, especially if you're a girl. It's like, don't be powerful. Don't be big. Look who she thinks she is. Or maybe you're a shy. Maybe you're a recluse. Maybe your goal in life is to be. Your soul's song is to be a monk. But you're always being pushed. Excel. See your sister. Be like her. The sister who's loud is told to be quiet. The sister who's quiet is told to be loud. Veil. Veil. Veil. You go to school, another veil, you get wounded. You're a man who's told not to have emotions. Veil. By the time you're an adult, your song, that beautiful soul song, is covered. Covered. So spiritual work, spiritual practice isn't about getting anything. It's about uncovering. That's why spiritual work, because everything goes

[Oprah Winfrey]

back to Dorothy, Glinda, the Good Witch. You already had it.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

You already had it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And really, that's what the journey's all about, isn't it? That's what it's about. It's uncovering and peeling back the veils.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And there's so many wonderful ways to peel back the veils. That's why I think things like psychotherapy or coaching, like what Brene Brown does, that's holy work. That's veil peeling.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And so is getting healthy. You know, some of the worst veils we suffer under are unhealthy bodies. So healing work is veil.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's a literal shield. It's a literal shield, yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

So spiritual work is taking care of your body. It's taking care of your psyche. It's doing meditation to quiet all of those stories we're telling.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ourself and however that meditation takes form for you, I think, you know, one of the wonderful things we've been able to do on the web with Deepak is the 21 day meditations. That's not for everybody. You know, I meditate daily regularly, but I also have many different forms of meditation. Sometimes just walking in silence and just sitting and being or for many people it's with a piece of music that

[Elizabeth Lesser]

lifts you up, that it's dancing, it's going to church. You know, prayer. Prayer is a tremendous veil buster. You know, because you pray to God. Remove the veils. That is my prayer to God every day. Remove the veil so I might see what is really happening here and not be intoxicated by my stories and my fears.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you find that the spiritual path gets easier?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The longer you're on it, does it get easier?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Absolutely. Let's say it's, you know, they call it spiritual practice because it's like basketball practice or scales. You practice not to become a great scale player or drill doer. You practice to become an artist and spiritual practice actually works. Meditation, prayer, whatever you do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Practicing gratitude. I would say I've said this many times, I cannot say it enough because if you didn't hear it the first time and also maybe you didn't try it, but gratitude is the single best way I have ever discovered of changing your personal vibration. Yeah, you can instantly do it with gratitude.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I love this Latin term, amor fati. Love of fate. Instead of bemoaning your fate. And sometimes our fates are terrible, but we love our fate. Amor fati. It's a way of being grateful. I'm going to love what happened to me because I trust that it's here to remove a veil. I'm going to search for what's happening to me in this time so I can take away yet another misconception.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what is your own personal spiritual practice? Ye who's run Omega, the institute for it all. Ye. Oh yes.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I would have to say love. It's just retractus when, when all else fails. Love. Love of my fate, love of the other. You know, there's such a knee jerk reaction to other people. You're different from me. You're not of my tribe. You're not who I want you to be at this moment. Judgment, fear. I find the thing that busts through otherizing is love. And not saccharine love, but that sense of heartfulness opening my heart, softening my heart to the world.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As you were just saying that. I was just thinking about as A friend. How you've shown your love to me. Do you even know?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's gonna make me cry. Okay. Hello. Don't cry. You know, when I was starting up this network and there were a lot of people who were saying a lot of discouraging things and, you know, mean and unkind things, and I really didn't even read them all, but I happened to open a paper one day, and the line was, Oprah not quite standing on her own. And for some reason, that struck me so deeply because I was like, gee, that's all I've ever done is stand on my own. And so I didn't read anything else, but certainly I was aware that there was lots of stuff. And then I thought, well, this is a great lesson. For the thing that I say I want to most learn is not having. Not worrying about what other people think and being focused on, you know, what is the next right move and the next right move with my team. But your love came to me through such encouraging words. Just every now and then, you would just send me an email or you would see something on this show, or you would send me a passage or a piece of poetry that you'd read and share with me. And I cannot tell you how that lifted me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Really.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, thank you for telling me that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's what love is.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

That's what love is. And that's what love is. That's what will save the world. Okay. That's all we have to do. It's not that hard.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's like an encouraging word.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

An encouraging word. You see, you asked me, what is my practice now. Certainly for years, my practice really was meditation and prayer and physical healing, that is, and psychotherapy. I'm not pooh poohing that. But my practice now is love is love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And how can you put that into being?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And it's not phony. It's like, I wouldn't have sent you encouraging words if I thought you were doing the wrong thing. That wouldn't have been a good friend.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

But I look for ways, and everyone can do this, and many people do it. Look for a way to lift someone up, and if that's all you do, that's enough.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. You were saying earlier how hard it is to say what the soul is. Do you have words?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, I also found myself saying earlier that the soul is like a silent music inside, quiet, beautiful song that you were given to sing here on earth, that universe, God wants you to sing your song. That's the soul. The Song.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Spirituality versus religion. How do you define it? You wrote a whole book about it. You're the one. You're the reason we asked this question. Because in the Seeker's Guide, there is spirituality and then religion. What's the difference?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Well, okay, I'll start with spirituality. Spirituality is this kind of fearless seeking nature. Like it's the part of us that says, whoa, what made a tree? Who am I? Where did I come from? What made something out of nothing? Where do I go when I die? How do I live? How am I supposed to live? That's spirituality, the seeking of truth. It takes fearlessness to seek after truth. Sometimes we'd rather just live, go through the paces. So that's spirituality. Religion are our attempts to answer the questions. And some of those answers are great and beautiful, and some of them are just dogma and rules that get us into trouble. My rules are better than your rules. And then we fight about them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

So spirituality are the questions, and religion are attempts to answer them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I'm still learning it. Love, acceptance. Not judging.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you see a purpose in suffering? What's the purpose of suffering?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I think we create suffering, but once we've created it, it's to help us learn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can we learn as much from Joy as we can through suffering?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yes, we can. Yes, we can learn as much from joy. Spirituality is not about suffering. You know, sometimes people are so serious. Oh, I'm such a serious seeker. But joy is a great teacher as well.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All right. How do you stay awake?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

How do I stay awake? I stay awake by paying attention to the amazing feedback loop that's always there. There's an amazing system in the world. It's called karma. But it's happening at every moment. Who you are, what you just did, what you said. Its reactions are happening all around us to other people. Stay aware of your effect on other people, of your effect on the earth. Don't be afraid to admit mistakes. And that's how I stay awake. I stay aware of my effect in the world.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you think happens when we die?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I was thinking about what happens when we die. I think about it all the time. But I was thinking about it when I was about to get on the plane to come here. And I was noticing how whenever I'm about to go somewhere, I'm always resisting it. Why am I leaving home? I like it here. Like, I don't want to go there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Believe me, I feel that.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And even if things aren't good at home, there's always this resistance to. And then you get on the airplane or the train or whatever and you're like, what was I afraid of? This is an adventure. And I think that's what will happen when we die. It will be. We resist. We're afraid what's coming. And then it will turn into an adventure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And such a surprise.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

And a surprise.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what I think. You know, it's what Whitman says in Leaves of Grass.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's gonna be such a surprise.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

Yeah. Death is not what we think it is, is what he says.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. What do you know for sure?

[Elizabeth Lesser]

I know for sure that when in doubt about what to do, and we often are, be loving. Don't be phony about it, but love. It's the great answer to everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Look for ways that you can offer it. That's what I think. Look for ways that you can be

[Elizabeth Lesser]

it, to be it. Be love. Be love. That's what I know for sure. That that is a good game plan.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Love that. Thank you. That was great.

[Elizabeth Lesser]

That was great.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hey there, podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations. It's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O', Neal, Reba McEntire, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and every Everyone can use their life as a class. Oprah's Masterclass podcast will be available July 19 on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcasts.com oprahsmasterclass I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

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