Super Soul Special: Father Richard Rohr: Finding Your True Self

Summary

Super Soul Special: Father Richard Rohr—Finding Your True Self

Oprah’s Super Soul Podcast | May 20, 2026
Guest: Father Richard Rohr

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and profound episode, Oprah welcomes Father Richard Rohr—Franciscan friar, author, and respected spiritual teacher—to discuss how we find and live from our “true self.” Drawing from his book Immortal Diamond and a lifetime of contemplative practice, Rohr explores the distinction between the “false self” and the “true self,” how suffering and transformation foster spiritual growth, and why unconditional love and inner silence are central to awakening our soul’s deepest potential. The conversation provides rich spiritual insights, memorable anecdotes, and practical guidance on embodying authentic being in daily life.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins and Spiritual Calling

• Oprah introduces Father Rohr, reflecting on his early fascination with teaching and his Franciscan commitment to compassion and simplicity.
• Rohr shares, “I never intended this to happen. This was not my self image. It just happened little by little that people responded so beautifully to what I was trying to say.” (03:02)

2. The “Immortal Diamond”—True Self vs. False Self

• The “immortal diamond” refers to the indestructible soul within us: “It’s the true self…almost indestructible.” (03:35)
• True Self: The God-given, authentic essence that cannot be created or destroyed—“the face you had before you were born.” (05:07)
• False Self: Our “persona”—constructed from external factors like education, race, role, and achievements. Not evil but “the raw material you fall through to find your true self.” (04:12, 04:45, 05:32)
• Oprah and Rohr agree: “You don’t create [the true self]. It’s already there.” (05:04)

3. Understanding God and Oneness

• Rohr describes God not as a being, but as “being itself. The ground of being— that which substantiates everything and fills everything.” (06:24–06:56)
• Oprah resonates with this: “There are times…where I can feel and see that…every single thing is connected.” (07:19)

4. Embodiment—The Soul Includes the Body

• Rohr insists that the true self incorporates the body, emotion, and sexuality, challenging “dualistic” views that separate body from spirit (07:57–08:34).

5. How Do We Live from the True Self?

• Realization that God is the source from which we are grounded eliminates fear: “If you really recognize that all the time, there would be no reason to be afraid.” (09:37)
• Rohr admits that living from the true self is a continuous process: “On my better days and my better moments…I don’t think any of us can sustain it 24 hours a day.” (09:43)

6. Success and Suffering—Necessary for Growth

• Rohr’s striking assertion: “Success is hardly ever your true self, only your early window dressing.” (10:42–11:12)
• True self is about “inherent dignity that cannot be given or taken away,” not achievements or ego. (11:18)
• Most real growth comes from suffering: “…after 30, everything I’ve learned has been from humiliation, sin, failure, rejection, betrayal.” (12:28)

7. Recognizing the False Self

• A simple rule: “Whenever you take offense, you’re living at that moment [from the false self]. Now, it still hurts for a few minutes. But once you go back to who you are…nothing can hurt you.” (14:13–14:51)
• Obsession with perfection is also a false self-seeking pursuit: “Perfection is a mathematical concept. It’s not a human concept. Humans are inherently imperfect, and that’s what God loves.” (15:23–15:38)

8. The Role of Suffering and Letting Go

• “You suffer whenever you’re not in control…If I can learn right now that it’s still okay…I can still be happy even though I’m not getting my own way. That’s how I find freedom.” (24:09–24:46)
• True transformation requires a kind of “dying”—a repeated process of letting go of old constructs and ego projects: “You have to let go of that in its present form and reshape it. It’s dying…it’s darn…” (19:45, 19:57)
• Pain, loss, and struggle, though unwanted, expand the soul: “That’s the way the self expands…if you don’t transform your suffering…you will transmit it.” (21:13–22:11)

9. Love as the Death of the False Self

• True love requires surrender: “To fall in love, you have to take the risk of changing yourself for this person…to let go of who you thought you were before.” (25:32–25:42)
• Love catalyzes growth if both partners support each other’s fullest self.

10. Yearning, Spiritual Memory, and Divine Pursuit

• Rohr shares a moving story: a young child asking his newborn brother to tell him “where you came from…I’m beginning to forget.” (28:00)
• Spiritual awakening is less about learning, more about recognition—"re-knowing what you deeply already knew.” (27:39)

11. Discovering Your True Self is Meeting God

• Oprah asks: “Is finding the true self the same as finding God?”
• Rohr: “Experientially, yes…You fall deeper into yourself, you fall deeper into God…” (29:05–29:32)

12. Spiritual Practice and the Power of Silence

• Rohr’s main practice: daily silence and solitude—“Finding inner silence and then honoring the silence that’s really around everything…” (33:10–34:08)

13. Religion vs. Spirituality

• Spirituality is experience; religion is tradition or doctrine. “Spirituality is when you’re personally, subjectively on the journey...when you move to the experiential level, that’s when you can talk about spirituality.” (34:13)

14. Critique of Religious Ego

• Religion can be “the best thing in the world, and it’s the worst thing in the world” when it becomes about ego and division rather than authentic connection. (36:04–37:13)
• “Religion is one of the safest places to hide from God.” (36:04)

15. Radical Grace—God’s Love

• “God doesn’t love you because you’re that good…It’s not a worthiness contest. God loves you because God is good.” (38:50–39:14)
• Unconditional love is “the experience of radical grace…once you know that, you’re sort of indestructible.” (39:14–39:48)

16. Final Advice for Living from the True Self

• “Don’t take your successes too seriously. But don’t take your failures too [seriously]. Don’t take yourself too seriously.” (40:26)
• Authenticity is found in humility, poverty of spirit, and dismantling ego projections: “When I stop believing that and stop hanging on to that, then I can rest in God and rest in Richard, too, at the same moment.” (41:04)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The false self is not bad…It’s the raw material that you fall through to find your true self.” – Father Richard Rohr (04:45)
• “God is more a verb than a noun…a dynamism that connects everything…” – Father Richard Rohr (06:24)
• “You don’t live out of fear anymore. You live out of connection.” – Father Richard Rohr (09:37)
• “Success is hardly ever your true self, only your early window dressing…” – Oprah/Fr. Richard Rohr (10:42–11:12)
• “The true self can’t be offended. There’s nothing to offend. It’s too large, it’s too grounded…” – Father Richard Rohr (14:13)
• “Perfection is a mathematical concept. Humans are inherently imperfect, and that’s what God loves.” – Father Richard Rohr (15:23)
• “If you don’t transform your suffering…you will transmit it.” – Father Richard Rohr (22:09)
• “You suffer whenever you’re not in control…” – Father Richard Rohr (24:09)
• “God loves you because God is good.” – Father Richard Rohr (39:10)
• “Don’t take your successes too seriously. But don’t take your failures too. Don’t take yourself too seriously.” – Father Richard Rohr (40:26)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 03:02 | Rohr on his journey to spiritual teaching | | 03:35 | “Immortal diamond” and meaning of true self | | 04:12 | False self vs. true self explained | | 06:24 | The nature of God as being itself | | 07:57 | Physicality and embodiment in the true self | | 09:37 | Living fearlessly from the true self | | 12:28 | Growth through suffering | | 14:13 | Rule for recognizing the false self | | 15:23 | The myth of perfection | | 19:45 | “Dying” as spiritual unlearning | | 24:09 | Rohr’s definition of suffering | | 28:00 | Story of the child and spiritual remembrance | | 29:05 | Is finding true self equivalent to finding God? | | 33:10 | Rohr’s personal spiritual practice | | 34:13 | Religion vs. spirituality | | 36:04 | Religion as “the safest place to hide from God” | | 38:50 | God’s love and radical grace | | 40:26 | Final advice on the path to the true self |

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Conclusion

Father Richard Rohr’s conversation with Oprah is a luminous testament to the enduring journey toward authenticity, wholeness, and spiritual realization. Through personal stories, spiritual wisdom, and practical guidance, Rohr illuminates the path to discovering the “immortal diamond” within, inviting listeners to embrace imperfection, surrender ego, and rest in the radical, unearned love at the heart of being itself.

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For further exploration:

• Immortal Diamond: The Search for Our True Self by Richard Rohr
• Other Super Soul Conversations with spiritual teachers (e.g., Eckhart Tolle, Gary Zukav)

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This summary captures all key topics and memorable moments, providing a comprehensive reference for those seeking insight into the episode, whether or not they've listened.

Transcript

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[Father Richard Rohr]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. He was born in 1943 in Topeka, Kansas. Father Rohr says he started his ministry at a very early age, pretending to teach catechism to friends when he was only seven years old. Intrigued by the Franciscan message of compassion and universal acceptance, Richard left home to study at the seminary when he was just 14, he entered the Franciscan order and was ordained a Roman Catholic priest in his 20s. Inspired by the example of St Francis of Assisi, who believed in a simple life lived in harmony with all things, Father Rohr founded the center for Action and contemplation in Albuquerque, New Mexico. That was in 1987. A much sought after speaker who's traveled the world for more than 40 years, he continues to inspire readers with timeless wisdom through his writing, including his book Immortal the Search for Our True Self welcome.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Thank you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Father Richard Rohr.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. Thank you so much. So you've been called one of the most influential spiritual teachers in the world. So many people are excited that we're seated together. But tell me, how do you see yourself? Do you see yourself as this great spiritual teacher?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I can say this for sure, Oprah. I never intended this to happen. This was not my self image. It just happened little by little that people responded so beautifully to what I was trying to say. And I took the next step and the next step, and now I end up doing this. But when I was a young boy in Kansas, of all places, on the other side of the wizard of Oz, I would have never thought I would write books someday. But I'm just grateful. I'm grateful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the immortal diamond?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The immortal diamond is the soul. It's the true self. Yeah. It's the indestructible part of the self. Isn't that interesting that the diamond is almost indestructible? So for me, when I knew I had to write this book, I knew that had to be the metaphor.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you believe within each of us there is which I sense that, too, there's a true self and a false self. And our goal in life is to follow the road, the path, the light, to whatever is the true self, the true self. And how do we know which is what?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The false self is? The fabricated, concocted self that we have to do. It's not wrong. The false self is not bad. But it's your Persona. It's your education, it's your race, it's your sexual orientation, it's your country. All of which are necessary to create an ego structure. That's not you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's the answer that people most often give. When somebody says, who are you? Or what do you do? I am Ba da Da.

[Father Richard Rohr]

My name.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I do the tunza. So and so and so. My mother is Hunza. And you're saying although. But in some ways, that is a real self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It is. That's why I wanted to say it's not bad. You don't want to put it down. It's the raw material that you fall through to find your true self. And I like the word falling through that you don't create it. It's already there. It's why most religion called it the soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It's already there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So the soul is.

[Father Richard Rohr]

The soul is. Well, let's quote the Zen masters, if you don't mind the face you had before you were born, your inherent self, your authentic self. It's not your psychological self. You see, we're so psychological.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love that. I gotta sit with that for a moment. That deserves a T and a tweet up. It's the face you had before you were born.

[Father Richard Rohr]

So the psychological self is created. And again, I don't want to say that's bad, but go back before. Like before I was a priest, before I was a Franciscan, before I had white skin, before I, you know, was an American. That all those labels. Those are labels. That's exactly the right word. But that's not your true identity. Now, I'm going to use religious language. In God.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In.

[Father Richard Rohr]

God is who you were from the moment of your conception. That's your inherent dignity that no one can give to you and no one can take from you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so tell me what you are talking about when you're talking about God. God is. Is God Franciscan?

[Father Richard Rohr]

No, I don't think so. I hope he likes us.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But is God Catholic? Is God when you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

God isn't he.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And God isn't even a he.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. God is more of an it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Let's try this. God is more a verb than a noun. Does that help? There's a dynamism that connects everything, that fills everything and makes it connect with everything else. That's why we called it the Holy Spirit.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Father Richard Rohr]

God isn't a being as much as God is being itself. And I don't mean to be overly abstract when I say that, but being itself means the ground of being. That which substantiates everything and fills everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I got that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And connects everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so I'm just going to repeat it. God isn't a being as much as God is being itself. It's the grounding of all being.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's it. That's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, I got that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And that you can only see that if you realize that it's all one. It's all connected. It's all the same.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There are times here when I'm walking around in the morning or in moments of just solitude where I can feel and see that. Where every single thing is connected. Where it's just all kind of vibrating and you can feel that vibration. So the false self isn't our true identity. Our true identity is.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Is who we are in God.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In that being, in that grounded being,

[Father Richard Rohr]

in that foundational being, and that no one can give to you and no one can take away from you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So is the true self the same as our soul?

[Father Richard Rohr]

90%. And let me tell you why I can't say 100%. Because the true self includes embodiment. So therefore there is a physical, physical, material, emotional, sexual, use any of those words element to the true self. Now that's revolutionary for a lot of dualistic Christians who think that soul is entirely a spiritual notion and has no physicality to it. But I think your and my embodiment and our struggles with it also lead us to God. So the true self includes body.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so how do we. This is what's wonderful about the immortal diamond. How do we get to cultivate and continuously live in the space of the true self? Because, you know, when you just said that a moment ago, I had a little aha. I mean, it's like Maya said to me many years ago when she first said the word. She was talking to a pastor who said, repeat, God loves me. And that she kept saying it. And the very notion that this all encompassing, indescribable, omnipotent, mystical power loves me. So when you said a moment ago that God isn't a being as much as the grounding being itself or the grounded being, and that our goal here as human beings is to realize that. That that is the source from which we also are grounded. If you really recognize that all the time, there would be no reason to be afraid.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. You don't live out of fear anymore. You live out of connection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So are you living that? I mean, as a.

[Father Richard Rohr]

On my better days and my better moments, I don't think any of us can sustain it 24 hours a day.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't it true that being human means we can't sustain it?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I don't think we can. You know, I remember listening to your series with one of my heroes, Eckhart Tolle, and how he. And you even said there even this living in the now, as much as we try to do it, you can't do it every waking hour, you know?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Are you constantly trying to get there yourself or do you feel like you live what you teach?

[Father Richard Rohr]

No, I only live what I teach some hours of the day. Because into my head come feelings of hurt, offended, ego, moment. No, I don't hold onto it so much anymore. I can let it slide off my back. But I have to admit it's this struggle with the false self that reveals to you your true self.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I wanted to just read. I love the Kindle. Do you read from Kindle or.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I do, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Success is hardly ever your true self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Only your early window dressing.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It gives you some momentum for the journey. But it is never the real goal. Now, this is. This is. In this country.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I know, I know. In our culture, talk about counterculture, we're

[Oprah Winfrey]

all trying to be successful.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you say success is hardly ever your true self, only your early window dressing.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, it's a personality.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I had to think about that for a while. Is that always the truth?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yes. Because the only real success is the success that is inherent. Your DNA is divine, and that is the ultimate success that levels the playing field of reality, which means that a man in Africa, a woman in Estonia, we're all the same. And that dignity cannot be given or taken away. It's given to you by God. And that's why no one can destroy your dignity. Now, I don't think we've taught that very well as Christians. You know, we still have been inside of the success game, too, of, you know, if you were more moral, if you went to church more, if you read the Bible more. So we created our own success system that still appealed to the ego.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, I'm just going to read that again. Because success is hardly ever your true self, only your early window dressing gives you some momentum for the journey, but it's never the real goal. So the real goal is. Okay, let me finish this. You do not know that. However, in the moment, it just feels right and good and necessary. Yes, success feels really good and is for a short while.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It doesn't teach you anything. Everything meaningful. I'm going to say up to the age of 30, you need some successes to create your ego structure. But it's an arbitrary number. But after 30, everything I've learned has been from humiliation, sin, failure, rejection, betrayal.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The difficult times teach you so much.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's when my soul expands. Now, I don't like it and I don't know it till afterwards, too. You know, you want to get rid of it. But then two days later, in the surrendering, the accepting, the seeing, I realize I'm larger. I'm larger.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think what you're saying is some of what Gary Zukov has said here before when he talks about authentic power, and he says that when the personality serves the energy of the soul, then that's authentic empowerment. And that authentic empowerment is that which is yours, which no one can take away.

[Father Richard Rohr]

No one. Or give to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Or give to you.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Because you got it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you got it, you got it. And so if you're relying on your beauty or relying on your athleticism, or you're relying on your square footage, all

[Father Richard Rohr]

of that is gonna die.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All of that is Going to die or go away.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

At some point, how do we continually. How do we get to that true self? That's the goal. I want to be in that space.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I think you are. But none of us are 24 hours a day. It's largely a matter of letting go of the false self. Like, let's say someone doesn't kiss up to me and call me father or respect my importance or my intelligence or

[Oprah Winfrey]

the fact that you've written 30 books.

[Father Richard Rohr]

So I'm offended for, you know, how many seconds? I don't know. But then I say, now, what part of you, Richard, was offended? You know, it's always the false self. The true self can't be offended. There's nothing to offend. It's too large, it's too grounded, it's too real. So that's my simple rule of thumb, Oprah, how to recognize the false self. Whenever you take offense. Whenever you take offense, you're living at that moment. Now, it still hurts for a few minutes. But once you go back to who you are hidden with Christ in God, as Paul would say, nothing can hurt you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. So it's like that moment where you say so and so, like they dissed me or disrespected me or were giving me my props or whatever. That's always the false. Always, always the false self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I'm gonna make an absolute statement. It's always the false. Now, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You're hurt. But it is the false self that was hurt. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And so many people become obsessed with this whole idea of perfection, which is also, in many ways, seeking the false self. Right.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Perfection is a mathematical concept. It's not a human concept. Humans are inherently imperfect, and that's what God loves. Which is the good news, you know, that God has chosen because you wouldn't

[Oprah Winfrey]

be here as a human being if you were perfect.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because this isn't the perfect planet.

[Father Richard Rohr]

No. It is the suffering on this earth right now to. And it breaks our hearts. But what can we do about it? We can't resolve it totally. We can stand for a truth that opposes it or would seek to relieve it. But we live in an imperfect world, and it breaks our hearts every day.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. What really breaks your heart when you turn on the news? What is the thing? That there's a consistent that comes powerless

[Father Richard Rohr]

people who've never been able to experience their power. You know, you and I were given such opportunities, too. And there's so many people who've tried. They accepted what life handed them, but never had a chance, you know, Never had a chance. It's so wrong the way so many people have to live their lives.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But isn't the reason why Sister Joan was here the other day and she was saying that some of the same things you're saying, but that we as a species have everything we need, isn't the reason people suffer is because we let them?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yes. I mean, well put that we are complicit in this human tragedy. Yes, we are humans. Letting other humans suffer, contribute to it. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's why I know we're tired of the word and we push back, but that's why the biblical tradition used the word sin, that we are complicit in the suffering of the world. You're right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So tell me this. You say that what our false self fears more than anything is change. And you write that whether human beings admit it or not, we're all in love with, even addicted to the status quo and the past, even when it's killing us.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You know, Pope Francis, who is obviously a hero of mine, he says the church is not an antiquarian society. And I look at the history of Christianity, so much of it has been a love affair with the past, with keeping things like they used to be. You know, what you see in the Gospels is, you know, Jesus moving ahead into history. God's in love with the future. Not that God doesn't forgive and love the past, but that in the name of Jesus at least a religion was created. That was so afraid of the future just astounds me. You know, when God, when he was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When he himself was so futuristic, he is future.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why do we fear change so much?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Cause it asks us to let go. And we're not good at letting go. We're good at holding on. And not only are we good at holding on, but we can show this. And I've seen it in myself, we hold onto the negative. Do you know it's hard to hold on to joy? But resentment hurt.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can just live in it, wallow, make yourself a little home and have a tea party for years. For years.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I mean, how many people don't we both know that just this is their whole identity, victimhood. And it's like, oh, come on now. When you don't need to play the victim or create victims, you're free. And that is the freedom I hope for. I hope I can live that. I don't need to blame another group or another race or another religion. Or another country. It's such a waste of energy, you know, this blame game I know of thinking that other people have to be victimized or demoted so I can be promoted, you know?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, anytime you're in that space, you're operating out of the false self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You got it? You got it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so you say that moving beyond the false self requires a kind of dying, literally. Right.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Unlearning and dying.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Unlearning and dying.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And by dying, you mean.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I don't just mean the final physical dying any time where I have to let go of my present construct, my success project, as Thomas Merton called it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, love Thomas Merton.

[Father Richard Rohr]

He's one of my great teachers. We each create our private salvation project, our private what will make me wonderful, what will make me look beautiful and be admired. Every time. You have to let go of that in its present form and reshape it. It's dying. It's darn. I based my life on that, you know, I based my life on looking good or being a priest or whatever, or being married.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And now that's falling apart.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's falling apart.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That friend who's going through divorce. And I said, you have to relearn a new normal. You have to, you know, it doesn't mean it's relearning a new normal.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, but the old normal has to fall apart. That's the.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And you never go there voluntarily. You fall.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is a psychological dying we're talking about.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yes. It will be experienced psychological. Yes, that's right. That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So this happens to people when you go through a divorce and first you are fighting, fighting it, and you think it's the worst thing that could ever happen to you. And then you come out the other side of it and you feel a greater sense of freedom and closer to your true self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Might take you five years to get there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Might take you five years.

[Father Richard Rohr]

But you wake up one day and say, my God, this is much better.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Or you lose your job.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. Lose your job or lose your reputation or your money or your child dies. You know, all of those immense tragedies. Yeah. That's the way the self expands. I'm sorry to say it's true, but it's true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why can't it just expand half a time?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I know I'm going to ask God this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why, please would you have a conversation with God and say, why can't we just learn through the happiest times?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I don't know why God shaped the world this way. But all the spiritual Masters I've read and studied would say this. You know, even Buddhism, the Buddha says, you know, life is about suffering. It's all what you do with suffering. If you don't transform your suffering, Oprah, I always say you will Transmit it with 100% certitude. You will transmit your suffering to your family, your neighbors, your country.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, if you don't transform it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

If you don't transform it.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

and define suffering.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Okay, I've got a definition.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Good.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You suffer whenever you're not in control, like at a stop sign that seems interminable. You're suffering. You know that just come on, come on, come on. I want it to change. And it's those little sufferings that have taught me the meaning of suffering. Right now I'm not in control. I'm not getting what I want, and I'm upset. Now if I can learn right now that it's still okay, I can still be happy even though I'm not getting my own way. That's how I find freedom. It's the only way I can find freedom.

[Oprah Winfrey]

One of the things that I learned from Eckhart Tolle that comes resonates with me so deeply. He was saying, all stress is created by wanting something. The what is to be what it is. Not that. If you can just be in the present moment and accept, acknowledge what is. I'm at the stop sign. It's the red light. It's not changing. And be with that immediately. You can find some level of contentment,

[Father Richard Rohr]

some level of true self.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Of true self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

The true self can be content right there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I think it's interesting how you describe love or falling in love, being in love, true love as a death of the false self.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It actually is, because we all love to fall in love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

But to fall in love, you have to take the risk of changing yourself for this person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you have to let go.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You have to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You have to.

[Father Richard Rohr]

And that's why a lot of relationships don't last. Because you have to let go of who you think thought you were before you loved that person. You're giving them power to change you. If you don't give your friend, your partner, power to change you, I don't think you love them. You know? And your unconscious knows that. Your soul knows that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Once you've been able to give yourself over to that other person, does that mean you actually get to become more of your true self, who you were meant to be?

[Father Richard Rohr]

If that other person is growing up too? Do you understand?

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

If it's mutual.

[Father Richard Rohr]

If it's mutual. If it isn't mutual. I've seen marriages pull people down into

[Oprah Winfrey]

smaller selves, which is what Gary Zukoff calls spiritual partnership. Is a partnership between equals.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Equals partners.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Partners. For the purpose of spiritual growth. You gotta have somebody.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I would agree.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Would you agree? You gotta have somebody who wants you

[Father Richard Rohr]

to grow, to grow to your fullest self, to your fullest self, to who you really are. And if you don't have that. I have seen people become smaller after marriage. That it's like egotism between two. And they say, let's just live behind the white picket. Fence. And you take care of me and I'll take care of you. And this is not enough.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not enough?

[Father Richard Rohr]

No. It's a good start. You deserve your honeymoon period. But love has to expand. It always has to expand.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you sense this yearning of the souls in the world, yearning for something more?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I think a lot of people aren't in touch with that yearning. They're not aware that they're longing for something more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think don't we come in longing because don't we miss God?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I deeply believe that, that all spiritual knowledge is not cognition, it's recognition. You're re knowing what you deeply already knew, what you deeply intuited, suspected, desired, hoped for. That's the soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Because don't we come in knowing. Isn't it Immortal diamond where you tell the story of the little boy? Can you tell us that story?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, that this family had a little boy who was about three or four. They come home with another little baby boy. And the three or four year old said, I want to talk to my little brother. And they said, oh, go ahead, you can. And he said, I want to talk to him alone. Which surprised them. And so they shut the door and they cupped their ears to the door to listen. And this is apparently what the little boy said. Quick, quick, tell me who made you. Tell me where you came from. I'm beginning to forget. And you know, could this be true? That we know at the beginning and we get caught up in all the complexities, Personas, struggles of life and we forget it, but our heart of hearts knows. Knows. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So is in this quest like everybody's looking to find themselves when there's really nothing to find, it's all really within. But is the finding of the true self the same as finding God?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Experientially, yes. The discovery of myself and the discovery of God will eventually be parallel movements. Well, initially too, that you fall into one and you fall into the other. You fall deeper into yourself, you fall deeper into God. You fall deeper into God, you have permission to fall deeper into yourself. Even warts and all, you know, so they sort of play back and forth.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When did you first come to know your true self?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, I wouldn't have called it that. I didn't know that's what I was experiencing. Yeah, but I can remember maybe. I'm five years old, the family's in the kitchen. It's either Christmas Eve or a couple days before the Christmas tree is all lit. I'm standing alone as a little boy looking at the Christmas tree. And I Remember just being absolutely certain that life was good and I was good and everything was beautiful. That's probably why I became a priest, because the spiritual world from that day forward was real to me. You know, it wasn't just a belief system. I knew it. I knew that there was something beyond the visible and that that was the real.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

But I want to say strongly, that's not the only path. I was a jail chaplain for 14 years in New Mexico and no one came that way. You know, they came through hitting the bottom for the most part, and so longing for God, for grace, for love, for forgiveness, for. For release from self hatred that they met God out of desperation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But it doesn't matter.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Doesn't matter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because the path says doesn't matter. As long as you come to it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

To the moment of communion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To the moment of communion.

[Father Richard Rohr]

There you go. Yeah. Yeah.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

what is your personal soul practice? What is your personal practice for keeping yourself in that space of being?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You know, for the last 15 years, the Franciscans have allowed me to live in a little hermitage, a small house behind the Franciscan community in New Mexico. And I try to preserve good chunks of silence. If I can do that and learn how to rest there it is arresting. Then I have to use that as a touchstone all day. Can I get back to that place of who I am in God, apart from my role, my success, my title, my authorship, or all of those things? Those are going to pass. And silence is the one spiritual discipline that is found in all of the world religions at the higher levels. Some degree of silence, and that would be my practice, finding inner silence and then honoring the silence that's really around everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's the difference between religion and spirituality for you?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Spirituality is when you're personally, subjectively on the journey. It's not just, I believe it because I was told to believe it. I believe it because the Bible says I should believe it. It's not church knowledge. It's not theological knowledge. It's experiential knowledge. So when you move to the experience experiential level, that's when you can talk about spirituality.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's interesting, Sister Joan was saying that religion is pointing to the moon. It's the way to perfect. It's the way to.

[Father Richard Rohr]

But it's not the moon.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not the moon.

[Father Richard Rohr]

She's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Pointing to the moon, not the moon. I've read in Immortal diamond, where you said that the role of religion isn't so that we can believe things, but it's so that we can know things for ourselves. For ourselves.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. You know, maybe you saw that film of Carl Jung as an old. He was the Swiss psychologist. And they asked him once with a microphone, do you believe in God? And his face gets sort of strange. Believe, believe. No, I don't believe. And he said it so humbly. I know. It was just. I just wanted to cheer because that's what I would like to say.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I do say that somebody was challenging me on Twitter not too long ago about Oprah. You're always trying to get people to believe in God, which I'm really not.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You're not.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm really not.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You can't do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can't do it, because I know I can't. So my thing is, I think I tweeted back, you don't need to believe in God. It's just there to experience.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It does nothing for God to Believe in God, Really? I mean, you and I both know people who believe in God and are the most racist, the most bigoted, and they believe in God. That doesn't impress me anymore. It just doesn't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, it doesn't.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Religion is one of the safest places to hide from God. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? You know, but that's why Jesus is so lethal to the high priest, the scribes, the Pharisees, the elders of the law. It's almost like he's revealing the danger of religion without throwing it out. Now that's non dual thinking, you see, without. I'm not throwing it out, but you better be aware, I've been a priest 44 years. Religion is the best thing in the world, and it's the worst thing in the world. An egocentric person who wants to feel separate and superior. And that's what the ego always wants. The ego always wants to feel separate and superior. You know, the best way to feel separate is to get God as your little commodity in your pocket. You know, God. So I use God so I can feel superior. So religion at that level ends up being more a part of the problem than the solution. And we've both seen that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you are. Listen, I have never heard a person of the cloth, a religious person, say that religion is both the best thing and the worst thing in the world.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It is. And I'm. Yeah, I'm supposed to be a company man, you know, but that's why Francis didn't want us ordained priests, you know, because he knew once you're ordained, you've got to speak the party line. And sometimes the party line is more about holding the party together than it is about proclaiming the truth. And that's just, I think, true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, on page 125 you write, our true self remains untouched for most of us because any direct experience of God or explicit union with God was blocked, denied, and largely declared impossible. It always had to be mediated by a Bible, a priest, a minister, a church or sacrament. And very often the mediators in the defending of their mediations became the primary message itself.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Darn. It's just so true. You know, I'm going to get back to Pope Francis. You know that he wants to be so simple and so ordinary. He's making us aware to dress up in all this stuff and have titles and thrones and special hats. Would Jesus have worn one of those?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Unbelievable. And yet you can't let yourself get hateful or angry at that or you'll become a Mirror image of it yourself. But still, to be able to laugh at it a little bit is almost necessary to get free from it, you know, to laugh at the silliness of human pretense.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what is the message you most want to convey?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I'm going to say it in a phrase that might sound too clever, but I do mean it. God doesn't love you because you're that good. Just get over that. It's not a worthiness contest. God loves you because God is good. Right? God doesn't love you because you're that good. Because then we have to try to prove that we're worthy of it, or we're good enough for it, or we've deserved it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We're in competition for it. If I do this much, if I give this much, if I do, yes,

[Father Richard Rohr]

God loves you because God is good. That's the experience of radical grace. That's the experience of unconditional love that never stops giving. Never stops giving. Because once you know that, you're sort of indestructible, what can defeat you henceforth? So all my books are an attempt to lead people to a personal experience of their divine nature. If I don't succeed at that, all the rest is straw, you know?

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you know for sure?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I know that I'm an ordinary man. And I know I've been given an extraordinary gift. And therefore I know God can give extraordinary gifts to anybody. I'm average intelligence. I am not that holy. I've made major mistakes in my life, and God has still used me so that I know for sure the connection between human imperfection and God's perfection.

[Oprah Winfrey]

If you wanted to give me, our viewers, the ultimate advice in how to walk the path to your true self,

[Father Richard Rohr]

you would say, don't take your successes too seriously. But don't take your failures too. Don't take yourself too seriously. See, it's this grabbing around identities, negative ones or overly positive ones, that keep us from the true self when we can be humble and poor, when we can be naked and empty. I hate to use such radical words, but that's why Jesus went into the desert for 40 days. To get rid of Persona, to get rid of words, to get rid of all these projectors.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I mean, you're like, strip Himself down.

[Father Richard Rohr]

People project onto you all kind of things that you know aren't true. And they do the same to me at a much lesser level. But people think I'm much more than I am. And when I stop believing that and stop hanging on to that, then I can rest in God and rest in Richard, too, at the same moment. It's the same resting. Yeah, you get it. I can tell.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know I get it.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You know I get it. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I love it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Great. Hey there podcast listeners. I have exciting news. We're launching a brand new podcast in addition to Super Soul Conversations. It's called Oprah's Masterclass. The Masterclass podcast allows you to hear the greatest life lessons from some of the most respected and renowned actors, musicians, public figures and athletes in their own words. Listen as Jay Z, Justin Timberlake, Ellen DeGeneres, Shaquille O', Neal, Reba McIntyre, Dwayne Johnson, and Jane Fonda, just to name a few, share what they've learned about life and their own insights into their personal stories and challenges. I believe that there's something to be learned from every experience and everyone can use their life as a class. Oprah's Masterclass podcast will be available to July 19th on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe now and listen free. Go to applepodcasts.com oprahsmasterclass I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening. Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Invoice Simple Advertiser / Kai Wright]

I'm Kai Wright.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from the Guardian.

[Invoice Simple Advertiser / Kai Wright]

We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.

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We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.

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Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday starting May 13.

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[Invoice Simple Advertiser / Kai Wright]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Acast.com.