Super Soul Special: Janet Mock: Redefining Realness

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Janet Mock – Redefining Realness

Air Date: October 8, 2025
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Janet Mock

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Episode Overview

In this powerful and intimate episode, Oprah welcomes Janet Mock—writer, activist, and author of Redefining Realness—for a conversation that delves deep into identity, authenticity, and spiritual liberation. Their dialogue moves from Janet’s earliest experiences navigating gender identity to broader reflections on personhood, societal "othering," resilience, and love. Together, they challenge conventional narratives about gender and the human journey to self-acceptance and wholeness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Spirituality of Authenticity

• Oprah introduces the conversation as deeply spiritual, grounded in the "search for your authentic self," a universal path to becoming your fullest self (01:01).
• Janet shares the struggle of embracing her trans identity—how she consciously shifted from hiding to unapologetically embracing her truth:

  “I will proudly and unapologetically embrace that part of my identity for once—the one part I was taught growing up to be silent and shamed about.” (02:27, Janet Mock)

2. Childhood: Early Awareness and "Othering"

• Oprah recalls Janet’s early experience in kindergarten being asked to choose a blue or red cubbyhole for her shoes—a metaphorical and literal “boxing in” by gender (04:43).
• Janet explains her acute early awareness of difference—her desire to choose the “girls’” box and the internalized sense that doing so would be “wrong:”

  "I knew it was wrong to do that. That's how much I had internalized all of the messages around me." (06:10, Janet Mock)

• She reflects on the confusion and lack of language for her feelings:

  “Confusing… I didn’t have language yet. I didn’t know how to articulate what I was feeling in rebuttal to the people who were charged with my care.” (07:39, Janet Mock)

3. Family, Gender Norms & Identity Policing

• Stories of policing: Her father’s efforts to enforce masculinity ("get in the game" anecdote), reactions to announcing “secretary” as her dream job, and the muumuu/dress incident.
• On parental love and limitations:

  “They knew no better... my whole purpose with writing the book was to show that they were flawed, that they were people who had pains and dreams that had failed them.” (14:12–14:32, Janet Mock)

4. Redefining Realness: Transition as Affirmation

• Janet narrates her transition in high school:

  “I come back after ninth grade, and I was like, I'm not going to present in a way that makes anyone else comfortable. I'm going to present in a way that makes me comfortable.” (15:05, Janet Mock)

• On courage: She attributes her strength partly to observing her father’s uncompromising authenticity and her supportive community in Hawaii.

5. Friendship, Community, and Queer Kinship

• On meeting Wendy: The first friend who mirrored Janet's identity back to her, offering acceptance and care that was “pivotal in my life at a time where everyone else was rebutting me” (18:32, Janet Mock).
• Significance of being "seen":

  “At 12 years old, I was given the gift of having a best friend who saw me.” (18:18, Janet Mock)

6. Gender, Transition, and Societal Narratives

• Oprah’s learning moment: She shares her own growing awareness that gender, like sexuality, is a spectrum—not a binary (22:57).
• Janet expands: Some people transition surgically or not, and this does not define their legitimacy as trans people. She clarifies the difference between assigned sex and gender identity.
• Defining terminology:

  “Who you go to bed with is your sexuality. Who you go to bed as is your gender.” (19:39, Oprah quoting Janet)

Language and Labels

• On misconceptions:

  “I presented as a boy, and I was viewed as a boy. That's true... But to say ‘Janet, who used to be a boy’—that is wrong. That's not how I see my childhood.” (26:04–26:11, Janet Mock)

• On media narratives:

  “When someone is going through that process and they see that in media, it becomes triggering… that no one will ever see me as I am now. They will always qualify it with the way in which my past was.” (27:29, Janet Mock)

7. Intersectionality and the Importance of Representation

• Passing, privilege, and complexity: Janet addresses “pretty privilege” and how being read as a cisgender woman offers her safety and access, but this is not the experience for many others in the trans community (32:51).
• Race, class, and layered identities:

  “My transness is complicated through race, through class, through economic resources… Most people, when I walk around in the world, they don't see that visible difference.” (32:08, Janet Mock)

8. Love, Vulnerability, and Intimacy

• Janet shares her journey to self-love and meeting her partner, Aaron—overcoming fear of intimacy and rejection by learning to accept herself first (35:17–36:02).
• On disclosing her past:

  "As I sat there and I opened up to him, I was opening up to myself… What I needed to do was tell myself the story." (36:02, Janet Mock)

• Aaron’s response:

  “Can I hug you?” (37:01, Aaron to Janet)

9. Liberation and Legacy

• Oprah asks about Janet’s soul’s calling:

  “She came to liberate. That's what I want people to say, she came to liberate.” (38:03, Janet Mock)

• On familial reconciliation: Janet tells of her father finally accepting her, bringing family to the airport to publicly affirm Janet as his daughter (39:35).

10. Spirituality & God

• Janet’s definition of God:

  “God is everything. God is love and truth. And I think for me, my spiritual quest is to figure out how to find God in me, which is love and truth, and then how to give people space to figure out the godliness in themselves.” (39:49, Janet Mock)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Who you go to bed with is your sexuality. Who you go to bed as is your gender.”
  Oprah, quoting Janet to clarify terminology and spark an “aha” (19:39).

• “I was a baby, assigned a sex at birth based on the appearance of my genitals... As I gained agency in my life, I decided to rebut that and say that I know myself to be a girl.”
  Janet, on reclaiming her own truth (24:59).

• “I want you to see me for who I really am.”
  Oprah, summarizing the universal desire beneath Janet’s story (30:34).

• “You are right. What you feel is real. Keep going. People will call you by the name you choose. People will respect you, and you will be validated, affirmed, and heard. Believe it.”
  Janet, on what she would tell her younger self (38:52).

• “She came to liberate.”
  Janet, on her calling (38:03).

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening and framing of episode’s spiritual focus – 01:01
• Early experience with “othering” and cubbyhole story – 04:43
• Parental reactions and policing gender – 09:10–14:32
• Transitioning in high school / Redefining Realness – 15:03
• Friendship with Wendy and being seen – 17:12–18:32
• Oprah’s gender spectrum revelation – 22:57–24:12
• Clarifying language about trans identities – 26:04–27:27
• Passing, privilege, and intersectionality – 32:08–33:25
• On love and self-acceptance with Aaron – 34:42–37:01
• Janet’s liberatory mission and advice to her younger self – 38:03–38:52
• Defining God and closing spiritual reflections – 39:49

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, reflective, humorous at times, and deeply compassionate. Oprah’s curiosity and willingness to admit her own prior misunderstandings foster a learning space. Janet’s storytelling is vulnerable yet confident, blending personal truth with broader societal critique.

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In Summary

This episode isn’t just about one woman’s journey; it’s an invitation for every listener to examine how we “other” ourselves and each other, how we can better see, affirm, and liberate not just trans people, but all people seeking to be fully themselves. Janet Mock’s insights and Oprah’s earnest engagement make this a moving and enlightening Super Soul Conversation.

Transcript

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[Janet Mock]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Janet Mock has been at the forefront of what Time magazine calls a transgender tipping point. Janet Mock says this is only the beginning of a much deeper conversation. So the reason why this is to me, a deeply spiritual conversation is because the search for your authentic self is the search that all of us hold as the pathway on our journey to becoming the highest vision of ourselves. And I think it's so interesting that it took you the time that it took you to become comfortable with telling your story. And when you finally did For Marie Claire 2011, very few people knew at the time that you were trans and you kept it quiet because you said you didn't want to become othered. Othered. And now we're sitting here on Super Soul Sunday talking about what that all means. Do you feel that you've now been othered or have you transcended that?

[Janet Mock]

I don't know if I've transcended it yet. I still think that for most people, the most interesting part about me is my transness. And so for me, I still feel like there is an othering about that. But I think there's a lot of power in saying that I will proudly and unapologetically embrace that part of my identity for once, the one part of my identity that I was taught growing up to be silent and shamed about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right?

[Janet Mock]

And so to put own that label and to say that it is mine and I will stand here in that complicatedness of, like, existing as a person, as a trans person, as a trans woman. I think that there is power in that, but there's still an othering attached to any kind of labels. I think that that kind of qualifies personhood or human.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I do think that your book Redefining Realness is the beginning. We're on the verge of a new way of thinking about sexuality and gender, and not just sexuality and gender. The reason why I think this book applies to, you know, any person who is human is because we get othered in multiple ways throughout our lives. And your desire to redefine realness, I think, is what everybody is really looking for for themselves, do you not?

[Janet Mock]

I do. I think that we're all searching for truth. I think that there is. There's so much that people are telling you about who you are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

And I think that's where the othering comes in. I was constantly, as a person going through this. Going through this society, trying to figure out who I was in relation to what people were telling me I should be. And so for me, Redefining Realness was about tapping into my most authentic self. Who am I to me? And I think that for me, realness is about authenticity. It's about searching and seeking truth. It's about being okay in the nuance of the messiness of figuring out who you are when you may not have the answers yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that's no matter what your gender is, no matter what your sexuality is, no matter where you are on the path. Right.

[Janet Mock]

Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Now, something. Let's start at the beginning. Because I was so struck by the very beginning of the story where you are in kindergarten and you're standing there. Actually, you took me back. Cause I went, oh, yeah. I remember those cubby holes. Cubbyholes. Where you have to place your shoes in the blue cubbyhole for the boys or the pink or red one for the girls. Can you take us back to that moment?

[Janet Mock]

Oh, my God. I remember that was the first time in my life where I had to. Where I was told, this is where you're supposed to be. This is the box, the literal box where you are supposed to exist in.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

Even though I had an inclination or a Wanting to draw towards the boxes that said Darlene or Kavehi, all the people that were my. All the girls that were my friends, who I played hopscotch with and, you know, played jacks with.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

And so to be put in this blue box labeled Charles, none of these decisions. I made. There was a, I guess a chasm between that, between wanting to step across that line that I knew, I knew from everyone else was wrong to want to even cross that and to go and remove that name, put a new name there and put my shoes in this box.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So as early as in kindergarten, five years old, five years old, you feel this desire that you want to be able to put your shoes in the red box and not the blue box.

[Janet Mock]

But the interesting thing is also I knew it was wrong to do that. That's how much I had internalized all of the messages around me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I love how you say that. I can't pinpoint to a pivotal aha moment grew taller and bolder despite the cues, rebuttals and certainties of those around me, who told me through a slightly furrowed brow or, or a shake of the head that even attempting to cross that void was wrong. I just thought that I was so moved by that because I think of your five year old self and there's something in you that knows I can't do that or somebody is gonna be upset with me for doing that. Exactly, exactly.

[Janet Mock]

And it's also interesting too in the sense of I couldn't fault the people who were telling me that because that's how they learned the world.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's all they knew.

[Janet Mock]

That's all they knew.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love this next sentence too. When I look back at my childhood, I often say I always knew I was a girl since the age of three or four, a time when I began cataloging memories. No one, not my mother, my grandmother, my father or my siblings, gave me any reason to believe I was anything other than my parents firstborn son, my father's namesake. But it was my first conviction, the first thing I grew certain of as a young person. When I say I always knew I was a girl with such certainty, tell me what that felt like.

[Janet Mock]

Confusing. It was confusing because I didn't have language yet. I didn't know how to articulate what I was feeling. In rebuttal to the people who are charged with my care. I came into the world supposedly knowing to trust my mother, knowing to trust my father. You know, as a young person, you have not much, you don't have much agency or decision making.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Janet Mock]

And so you just go wherever people pick you up and take you and say that this is the way the world is. And something internal inside of me told me constantly that what they're saying is wrong. And so it creates this dissonance with who can you trust if you Know that inside as a five year old, that this is how you know yourself to be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you knew that something was different, right?

[Janet Mock]

Mm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you think they knew too?

[Janet Mock]

Oh, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They all knew.

[Janet Mock]

They all have their stories now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

Right. My mom talks about the first time when I put her earring backing in my ear and it fell down and I had to go into the surgeon's and get it suctioned out. My father talks about the times in which he would watch me with a side eye, skeptical, wondering why I moved the way I did around the world, around our little community.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you were saying in the book, you describe it as your. Why you held your wrist that way.

[Janet Mock]

Why I held my wrist. Why I had a little swish in my h. I had no idea why I was performing self in this way, why I was expressing my gender in this way. I didn't have language to understand that. I don't think my father did either. All he knew was that that's not how a boy is supposed to act. Not my son.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Tell me about that moment when I can't remember whose house you were at, but you were playing.

[Janet Mock]

Oh, Smear the Queer. The queer.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'd never heard of that game. Is that a game?

[Janet Mock]

Yeah, it is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Ok.

[Janet Mock]

It was basically like a roughhouse version of football. My brother was playing at first.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Janet Mock]

And my father saw me on the sidelines with my cousin Michelle, cheering.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Janet Mock]

And he didn't like that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

He didn't want me to be the cheerleader. He wanted me to be the player. He was determined to butch me up, as we would say. Yeah. So he walked over to me where I was on the sideline watching my brother play. He grabbed me up from my shirt and he said, get in the game. I got in the game with my brother Chad. My brother Chad was like, just, if you get the ball, just run as fast as you can. I got the ball. I ran. And right before I got to the finish line, the goal post, I was slammed down. Dirt went into my mouth and I was hurt, but I never saw my father prouder of me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you were hurt.

[Janet Mock]

Because I did what a boy was supposed to do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you did.

[Janet Mock]

I did what he wanted me to do, but that had nothing to do with me. That was the thing that I even knew, even back then, it had to do with the performance that he had to make with his friends to show that his son was not this sissy. Was not this sissy boy child.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So what is going on in your family this whole time? Because they can obviously see and you are trying to hide your femininity. And what is anybody saying to you about it?

[Janet Mock]

My father was the most vocal, for sure. Especially when I would have. When I would do things that was against his definition of how it was supposed to be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

So when I was in the second grade and we were told, what do you want to be when you grow up?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you said secretary.

[Janet Mock]

I said secretary. Because to me, from what I learned in culture, that's what women did. Women were, you know, they assisted men in their dreams. And then I went home with a note to my father from my teacher, and I thought it was going to praise me, and instead, it was basically like, I think this is something you should be paying more attention to. And that just triggered my father on so many levels. His own insecurities about it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, it triggered your father. Because now your father recognizes that not only do I see it, I see the femininity in my son, but now his own teacher is now sending me a note home saying, take note of this. So what happened?

[Janet Mock]

And so everyone basically gets on board that the way that we need to do, what we need to all do is to fix this. How do we get this out of this child? And so my father started lecturing me. It was my first lecture from my father about the way I should act in the world, the way that I should be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Boys do this and girls do this.

[Janet Mock]

Girls do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Boys are not secretaries.

[Janet Mock]

No, boys are not secretaries. Boys are football players. They're Dallas Cowboys. That's what they do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So then, did you try to conform for them?

[Janet Mock]

I started compromising when they weren't around. I would express myself when they were around. I would sit quietly and just do my homework.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, wasn't there a. I won't say a seminal incident, but there was a moment when you were still in Hawaii. There was a dress on the line. There was some clothes on the line. Tell me that story.

[Janet Mock]

So that was. It was playing truth or dare with one of my closest girlfriends at the time. We were both six years old. We were laying underneath the clotheslines in her grandmother's garden. And she goes, I dare you to put on my grandmother's dress. The muumuu, drape it on a run across the parking lot and tap the garbage can and run back. So I put it on. I didn't really think anything was wrong with doing that. You know, I'm five, six years old, and then my sister Cory here cackling. I was like, oh, I want to get in trouble. And so then I run back quickly, and my grandmother said, get your butt over here. I go to her, and she smacks me on my butt and makes me go and sit basically quietly until my mom comes. And then I get a lecture from my mom around, gender, performance, around. I said, I got in trouble for stealing a dress. She goes, no, you got in trouble for putting on a dress.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But what is so interesting to me is that you describe in the book how you felt in that moment with that dress on. That. That dress, even at five years old, felt like it was.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah. This hideous, hibiscus covered dress. That dress made me feel like I was presenting for the first time as who I knew myself to be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Janet Mock]

And what I think is so interesting, for any child that is just trying to express who they are, figure out what that is. It was stamped out of me. And I think that all of us get these cues, all young people get these cues that who we know ourselves to be should be hidden. So you put that away. You put that in a compartment, and you do it at another time. You do it when you can leave the home. You don't do it within my house.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But in spite of that, you say in the book and how so many other people respond to the fact that you. You still loved your parents because you knew your parents were loving you the best way they knew how to do.

[Janet Mock]

They knew no better.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They knew no better.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah. And I think that my whole purpose with writing the book, it was to show that they were flawed, that they were people who had pains and dreams that had failed them. And I had to hold them accountable to what they did to me when they were trying to do right. When they thought that they were doing the best thing for their child.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But this is what's amazing to me, and I think to anybody who reads Redefining Realness, is that at 15 years old, you made a decision after meeting your friend Wendy that you were gonna go to school as a girl, that you basically transitioned in your own heart and that you had the courage to step out and do that at 15 years old. Yeah. You went into school your freshman year as Charles, and by your sophomore year, you are now Janet.

[Janet Mock]

Full time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Full time.

[Janet Mock]

I come back after ninth grade, and I was like, I'm not going to present in a way that makes anyone else comfortable. I'm going to present in a way that makes me comfortable. And so I had just been elected class treasurer. And so I stand on that stage the first day of school, our sophomore class, and I say, hello, everyone. I'm Janet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And did everyone just accept it?

[Janet Mock]

I wouldn't say accepted it. I think a lot of people tolerated it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think that's pretty amazing.

[Janet Mock]

I marvel at it now. At that time, it seemed like the only possibility, the only pathway. All I had, you know, growing up, I grew up poor. I grew up as a black child in communities that are already suffering. And so the only resource I had was my truth, was myself. That's the one thing I could control in the world, is to present and be who I knew I was. And I knew that living authentically and being myself would be the first step towards any kind of success.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In the process of stepping into, where do you think you got the courage for that?

[Janet Mock]

I think it's twofold. I think somewhere within myself, the way that I was raised, from my father and all his dysfunction and his flaws, he was very selfishly himself. He didn't care about what his girlfriends thought, about what his mother thought, about what his sisters thought, about what his children thought of him. He was fully himself, flaws and all. I think I learned that a lot from him. But I think the other layer was I did it in community. You know, going to Hawaii, growing up in this culture where there was a vast spectrum of gender expressions and identities.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so you're just trying to step into the truth of yourself. We were talking about the courage that it took to do that. And you meet this woman who actually, she was a girl at the time. You meet Wendy, who you can see that this person. Is it like you or feel it? Right.

[Janet Mock]

There's no way to miss Wendy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Janet Mock]

Who came into my life at 12 years old, who told me to stop lying. She would wear these super short shorts with socks pulled all the way up. She'd prance around school.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

So I always saw her, and I was afraid of her.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why? Because.

[Janet Mock]

Because I knew that she was reflecting me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Janet Mock]

And I didn't want to see myself yet. I wasn't ready.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And she would call you out.

[Janet Mock]

Oh, she did call me out.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

And that was my first interaction with her. Was, are you mahu? That's what she asked me. And mahu is a term within Hawaiian culture, kind of loosely translated to transgender. And I just. I clenched up. I was like, wait, someone is seeing me? Someone is calling me out for who I am? And I wasn't ready to face that. And it took a few months, and I saw her, and she asked me kindly the next time she goes, do you want to play volleyball after school? And that was the start of our Friendship. And Wendy was the first person to tweeze my eyebrows, which was my first act of intimacy as a young person. Having someone to finally, like, take care of me. And I was like, wow, this is what friendship is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And to see you.

[Janet Mock]

And to see me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

And to see me. At 12 years old, I was given the gift of having a best friend who saw me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mm, mm, mm, mm.

[Janet Mock]

And that was pivotal in my life at a time where everyone else was rebutting me. Yeah, she saw me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I get that. I get that. So at what point did you decide that you wanted to go all the way?

[Janet Mock]

What does all the way mean?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Meaning you wanted to go to. I think it was in Bangkok. Was it? Where did you.

[Janet Mock]

Oh. When it. To have, like, the operation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Operation, yeah.

[Janet Mock]

Oh. See? And so that's where I think it becomes a little bit more complicated. I think all the way for some people. Right. And I think that's why I asked, like, what do you mean by all the way? Because some people don't even. Some trans women or trans people don't even want to have any kind of surgeries. They're fine with how their bodies are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, the thing is, I came away from your book and I am so darn confused now.

[Janet Mock]

Yes. Ask me all the questions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, good.

[Janet Mock]

Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So trans is the right word.

[Janet Mock]

Trans is the word that I tend to use.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. But you can be transgender and not have and still have body parts of another sex.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah. Or whatever your sex is for yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. So. Cause I think the best way explained it. I can't remember where in the book. Is that who you go. Now let's see. Who you go to bed with is your sexuality. Right. Who you go to bed as is your gender.

[Janet Mock]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a tweetable moment.

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[Janet Mock]

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[Commercial Narrator]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I never thought about this before and I consider myself to be really open and accepting. So all these Years of doing the Oprah show and now on own in all my conversations, I've considered myself open minded and understanding that homosexuality or sexuality. Sexuality, heterosexuality, that. That is a spectrum. I was really proud of myself for figuring that out. Many years ago when we were doing, you know, coming out day and people were saying it's a sin and all of that, I could see that it's a spectrum and you can't really define it because people are different places on the spectrum. Never occurred to me that there's a spectrum for gender because I either thought, you're a man or you're a woman. And then.

[Janet Mock]

And that's the way we tend to tell trans stories. Right. We say that someone's going from a male to a female.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so is that wrong to say that?

[Janet Mock]

No, because some people, that may be their journey, they may have lived their lives and been perceived as men in the world and transitioned into womanhood. Right. And that's the way that they would define it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Janet Mock]

But I think that the most dramatic stories we tend to tell are coming from this space that was completely opposite than where it's at. Where some people, they may just kind of be right here, and that's where they may hover for a while, and that's where they exist.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so am I correct? Because you say in the book that. I think it's actually the first page, first chapter where you say you were a boy.

[Janet Mock]

Mm, right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Am I correct in saying you were a boy?

[Janet Mock]

Um, I guess I would complicate that a little bit more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, okay. I am not correct in saying you were a boy. You were not a boy named Charles.

[Janet Mock]

I was a child who was named Child.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was certain I was a boy, just as I was certain of the winding texture of my hair, the deep bronze of my skin. It was the first thing I learned about myself as I grew aware that I existed. So I said, okay, so you were a boy.

[Janet Mock]

That was my understanding of it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That was your understanding. Okay, so now how would you say it?

[Janet Mock]

I was a baby, assigned a sex at birth based on the appearance of my genitals. Because of the appearance of my genitals? Yes. I was told that I needed to love a woman and I needed to be masculine. As I gained agency in my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Janet Mock]

I decided to rebut that and say that I know myself to be a girl. Despite what you think you know about me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I hear that.

[Janet Mock]

She'S like, uh, no, I hear that. I hear that. I hear it. I'm processing or taking it in, but.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I don't know what else you're supposed to. Okay. And I do think. Everybody just stay open. Everybody just stay open. I do think that if we say, coming up next, or we're going to commercial, whatever we say, you know, you lived your life as a boy. That would be a wrong thing to say.

[Janet Mock]

No, I presented as a boy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You presented as a boy.

[Janet Mock]

I presented as a boy, and I was viewed as a boy. That's true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is it wrong to say Janet, who used to be a boy.

[Janet Mock]

That is wrong.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is wrong. Cause you never were a boy.

[Janet Mock]

That's not how I see my childhood.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Janet Mock]

So I think it's. I think this is more of a conversation around what becomes fact. Is what the truth that I felt as a child fact, or is it what society says is fact?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Got it. Because you always knew you were a girl.

[Janet Mock]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right. But you can forgive those of us.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Who didn't always know that you were a girl and who might have known you when we thought you were a boy.

[Janet Mock]

Yes, I can forgive that. I can. On a personal level. But I think that because so much of who I am is representative of entire community of people, it becomes a bigger debate than I would take it for myself on a personal level.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Janet Mock]

When trans people, say, get upset around the narratives that we tell around trans people's bodies and lives, like, you were once this and now you're this. And so stay tuned till the next commercial break. When we talk about how she transformed and then went to Bangkok and had this surgery and now she's a woman and will accept her that way. That's always the way in which we tell trans stories, lives. And so when someone is going through that process and they're still in that and they see that in media, it becomes triggering to, I think, a lot of people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what does it trigger?

[Janet Mock]

I think it triggers that no one will ever see me as I am now. They will always qualify it with the way in which my past was. And so my past becomes more important.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Aha.

[Janet Mock]

Than who I am now. So I sit here and I tell people, I'm Janet Mock. You know, Yes. I was born my parents firstborn son. That is the truth. That's the truth of our experiences. That probably was the root of a lot of my conflict growing up and the dissonance that I felt and my journey and identity. But we worked through that. My grandma got it, and she was 70 something years old. She embraced me, she got over it, and we moved on. But the world has not moved on from that part of my story.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Is it because you think the world is still trying to get used to the idea of the spectrum?

[Janet Mock]

Yeah. And the thing that's so interesting is that I'm the basic level of the spectrum.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're the basic.

[Janet Mock]

My journey is so basic, in a sense. I went from being this little boy child who transitioned as a teenager during puberty, and I became a little. A girl. Right. A teenager, a young woman. And I fit perfectly into what people's idea of what a woman is supposed to look like. So that's a basic story. Now, there's some people who exist in that middle part of the spectrum that we don't even talk about often who are. It's a lot more complicated. And there's people who look like me who have different body parts, who then would just. Everyone's minds become a bit more. They're like, wait, that's not what I thought. I thought you wanted to go all the way. I thought you wanted to have the surgery. I thought you wanted to do this. And it's like, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. Being a woman who has a penis. People then get confused. And so that's where the combinations.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that does. Is confusing, Janet. That is.

[Janet Mock]

But then are we basing. So are we basing gender on body parts only?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think we have to a great extent in the culture, and I think you are the trailblazing leader of this movement because you're getting us to see that redefining realness means redefining also the way we talk and the way we think about it and the way we discuss it. Because I recognize, even in reading the book, wow, this is new territory. And so my approach with you is very different than it would have been 20 years ago when I was interviewing my first transgendered person. Because then, believe me, the producers would be back, and they'll be like, ask about the penis.

[Janet Mock]

Ask about the penis.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have it? Do you not have it? Instead of the spiritual journey and what it takes to be the kind of person to have the courage to stand inside yourself and say, no, this is not who I am, but this is who I am.

[Janet Mock]

I think that because the conversation was promoted in such a way, it became the blueprint for how we tell trans people's stories. And I think a lot of the frustration, I would say, from trans community and from a lot of allies of the trans community was that, why are we still having this conversation about what's in our pants?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I really do understand that. I really do understand that. But I would have to say I wouldn't have understood it had I not read this book. Because for the first time, after reading your book, I'm not gonna cry. Ah. I just had an aha moment. But for the first time, I understand that the conversation is the same conversation every human being wants to have. It's, I want you to see me for who I really am. It's not about looking at your genitalia. It's not looking about who you choose to go to bed with or who you don't choose to go to bed with. It's about, I want you to see me for who I am. That's what I got out of your book. You talk in the book about the first time you looked in the mirror after your surgery. You said you felt authenticated and closer to whole for the first time in your life. Was that an overwhelming moment?

[Janet Mock]

It was. I was 18 years old, and I made so many sacrifices and compromises, and I got my girl. I went out in the world and I got her, and I liberated her. And I went through a whole underground railroad of resources to get to that space where I could stand in that mirror for the first time naked and lay bare in my truth, this is who I am. And I did that on my own. And so to have that at 18, that gift, nothing could stop me after that. That's what I felt at least.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so you discovered that all of us carry, you say, many layered identities, that we silence every day. Like what?

[Janet Mock]

Oftentimes when I sit down, I often only talk about one part of my identity, which is my transness, you know, and my transness is complicated through race, through class, through economic resources, through so much. I'm a woman, but I'm a trans woman, you know? And most people, when I walk around in the world, they don't see that visible difference. They don't see that. All they see is, oh, who's that black girl with the big curly hair? That's what they may see.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Or they can say, you pass so well and you.

[Janet Mock]

That your life is easy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That your life is easy and you feel that to be reductive.

[Janet Mock]

To a certain extent.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. The fact that you can pass so well when people say, but that's also true. Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

Because I can pass in the world. Most people are not rebutting me when I walk around. They accept me as a woman. So it offers me safety, it offers me access, it offers me a level.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of comfort as opposed to somebody. Okay, let's just say as opposed to.

[Janet Mock]

Someone who is who does not present in the way that I do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I mean, being pretty helps. Would you not say, yeah, yeah. Thank you for saying that. I hate it when pretty girls always say no. It really doesn't make a difference. You should see my face. Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

Pretty privilege is real.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Pretty privilege is real girl.

[Janet Mock]

We're all judging people on the way that they look.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So if somebody is transitioning. Is that a good word?

[Janet Mock]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay. So if somebody is.

[Janet Mock]

I love how scared you are. You're like, don't start tweeting me with all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Listen, I'm just trying to have conversation. Stay open. Stay open, everybody. Is that a good word? Transition. So I've seen it. I've done shows with people who are transitioning who obviously, you know, had this idea of what they thought they would look like.

[Janet Mock]

As a woman, you can tell someone is trans.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Janet Mock]

Yeah. Then it becomes a debate. Then it becomes about. So did you go all the way? Did you do this? What did happen?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Janet Mock]

Oh, wow. What did your family think? What did this? What was this like? And so the person spending most of their time not being seen as a person, but being gawked at. And so I think that most people. Most trans people are often rebutted.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But don't you think, Janet, because you have started the conversation, don't you think that we're on the frontier of this in the same way that we were in discussing people being gay or straight 20 years ago, 30 years ago?

[Janet Mock]

I think we are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

We talked about sexuality for so long, and now I think it's time to have a conversation around gender. What does it mean to exist on this spectrum?

[Oprah Winfrey]

So did you ever feel. Did you ever think that you could find the love of your life that would enhance your life the way you and Aaron have been able to enhance each other's life? Did you ever think that was possible?

[Janet Mock]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No.

[Janet Mock]

Because at that time, I wasn't. I didn't really know myself. I didn't really love myself yet. I'd gone through all the motions to become myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

But I hadn't yet told myself my own story. As soon as something would happen, I would put it into a compartment and move on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But from the moment you saw him, you knew that there was something, that there was a deeper spiritual connection, right?

[Janet Mock]

Oh, yeah. He really wanted to know me. And that was bizarre for me. Cause I could, like. I would often rest on pretty and kind of, you know, keep men at a distance. I had that down. Like, I know how to. I knew how to thrive and have fun in A three month relationship and then to end it because I didn't want anyone to know me, end it. Not really go to the point of intimacy. And then. Right, but he was not having that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So when you had the conversation with him, when you say, I have something to tell you about my past, did you think that that could end it forever? That he would go away and maybe that would be the end and not be able to accept you fully?

[Janet Mock]

What's so interesting about that moment is that all my fears was exactly how you framed it. It was about him rejecting me. But as soon as I sat there, I realized as I sat there and I opened up to him, I was opening up to myself. So it wasn't so much about the rejection point at that point, because I had already come and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to accept it as what it is. And what I needed to do was tell myself the story. And that's what I did in his bedroom that night. That was the gift. Because I had never, at that point, I was 26. I'd never told myself my own story. That's how much the shame and the silence was internalized within me. I was going through the motions. I was doing all the things that people said was brave and courageous, but I had never really sat and reflected on all of the stuff. And that's what my relationship with Aaron enabled me to do, was to reflect.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What did he say to you after.

[Janet Mock]

You told him, can I hug you?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love that.

[Janet Mock]

Because he understood how big of a deal it was for me to do that, to trust him. And so I always think about their eyes were watching God from Zora Nor Hurston. I think about Janie. Janie sitting there washing her feet, eating her friend Phoebe's food and telling phoebe, girl, let me tell you what I went through. And that's what I had with Aaron. I was like, let me tell you what I went through. And so I feel that in this relationship I've been given the keys to my own promised land. You know, meeting this person who just sat and listened and affirmed me every step of the way, who believed in my vision.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's the calling you came to earth to fulfill? Do you think.

[Janet Mock]

She came to liberate? That's what I want people to say, she came to liberate. Yeah, she came to liberate. I don't know why that keeps on coming in my head, but I think so much about the work that Harriet Tubman did. It seems so bizarre. But that's what I come To. It's like, what does it take for a person to go get their own freedom and then to come back.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Janet Mock]

And show people the way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. Tweet, tweet. That's a powerful moment. Okay. What would you tell that courageous little child, Charles Mock about the future?

[Janet Mock]

I would say you are right. What you feel is real. Keep going. People will call you by the name you choose. People will respect you, and you will be validated, affirmed, and heard. Believe it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's your relationship with your parents like now?

[Janet Mock]

My. I would say that me and my father, we don't really know each other, but I think that we can appreciate the experiences that we went through together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. And hasn't he accepted you because.

[Janet Mock]

Oh, yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That moment when he comes to the airport a decade later and he brought.

[Janet Mock]

Everyone to stand witness to that. This is. We're gonna accept Janet as Janet. This is Janet. This is my baby. And that's only.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No matter what.

[Janet Mock]

No matter what.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Okay, here comes the biggie.

[Janet Mock]

Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your definition of God.

[Janet Mock]

God is everything. God is love and truth. And I think for me, my spiritual quest is to figure out how to find God in me, which is love and truth, and then how to give people space to figure out the godliness in themselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Perfect. You are perfect. Just perfect. Thank you.

[Janet Mock]

Thank you so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Janet Mock]

This has been a dream.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Janet Mock]

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[Commercial Narrator]

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[Janet Mock]

Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda dealer today. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more done well. So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros. Get [e-mail].