Super Soul Special: Jean Houston: Lessons from 'The Wizard of Oz'

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Jean Houston – Lessons from 'The Wizard of Oz'

Episode Overview

In this enlightening episode, Oprah Winfrey sits down with renowned scholar, philosopher, and writer Jean Houston to explore the deep symbolic meanings of The Wizard of Oz, the hero’s journey, and the untapped human potential within each of us. Through personal stories and philosophical reflections, they discuss living with purpose, radical empathy, and embracing life’s callings. The tone is warm, wise, and deeply human, enriched by memorable anecdotes and luminous quotes.

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Main Themes

• The “hero’s journey,” human potential, and spiritual awakening
• Lessons from The Wizard of Oz and universal myth
• Living with radical empathy and purpose
• The gifts and opportunities of aging
• The soul, spirituality, and the continuity of life

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jean Houston’s Life & Influences (00:59–05:07)

• Houston credits her longevity and vitality to “4,000 years of olive oil,” laughter, and a “passion for the possible.”
  • (Jean Houston: “I think it’s a passion for the possible....what we do will make a profound difference as to whether we grow or whether we perish. And it’s that sense of urgency and possibility, the lure of becoming, I think, that keeps me going.” [02:06])
• Raised in a creative family (her father wrote for Bob Hope; her mother was a Shakespearean actress), she highlights how humor and cultural exposure shaped her worldview and optimism.

Meeting Eleanor Roosevelt (03:42–05:07)

• As a teen, Houston was inspired by Roosevelt’s language and presence.
  • Important advice: “...a woman is just like a tea bag. You put her in hot water and she just gets stronger.” [04:42]

Early Mystical Experience (05:19–07:06)

• Houston recounts a pivotal childhood mystical experience after being punished for questioning religious dogma.
  • “Suddenly, the whole world moved into meaning....All of reality was there, and it was all moving together, and it was very, very good. And I was in a universe of fellowship....in a state of bliss.” [06:26]

The Hero’s Journey & Personal Callings (07:28–09:53)

• Oprah discusses Joseph Campbell and the universality of the “hero’s journey.”
  • Houston: “Often the first call is...the usual calls. And then at a certain point...the next level of our possibility just starts to rise. And you feel, wait a minute, there’s more to me than that.” [09:13]
• The “call” may come in unexpected (even difficult) forms, ultimately pushing us to deeper purpose.

The Soul’s Code & Human Potential (10:02–10:30)

• Houston and Oprah discuss the soul’s “code” or guiding blueprint, referencing James Hillman and the potential acorn within the oak.
  • “It’s what I call entelechy or the higher guidance, the great friend....there is a deeper code.” [10:16]

The Clinton/Eleanor Roosevelt “Seance” Incident (12:38–14:04)

• Houston clarifies her infamous interaction with Hillary Clinton: it was simply imaginative role play to encourage creative thinking, not mysticism.
  • “It was a classic old-fashioned role playing game. That is all it was....somehow it got out to the press and suddenly it was all over and it had become a seance. I’ve never even been to a seance.” [12:48]
• She pivoted to meaningful work after this media storm, highlighting resilience and adaptability.

The Power of Community & Radical Empathy (14:13–15:12)

• True personal growth requires community: “teaching, learning circles, growing in body, mind and spirit together...expand their sense of radical empathy to others.” [14:16]
  • Oprah: “Expand the inner capacity, our inner capacity for radical empathy.” [14:49]
  • Houston: “When we are really sharing, when we are calling forth the depth and genius of the other, then we grow.” [15:12]

The Wizard of Oz as a Spiritual Roadmap (15:25–18:28)

• Houston outlines her book The Wizard of Us, interpreting The Wizard of Oz as a template for transformation, echoing the hero’s journey.
  • Dorothy’s journey mirrors the process of answering one’s call and integrating “disempowered” parts of self.
  • “The yellow brick road is the road of spiritual pollen. You find this in many myths. And who does she meet? She met the disempowered parts of herself....The disempowered mind, the...Scarecrow....heart….Tin Man....courage….Lion.” [17:37]

Personal Journeys & Breaking Through (16:28–17:36)

• Oprah shares her pivotal “tornado” moment: leaving a comfortable life in Nashville for uncertainty in Chicago, despite discouragement.
  • “Even if I fail, I still have to go because if I stay here, I’m going to be smothered. Which is exactly what he says in the Hero’s Journey. If you don’t accept the yearning, then you end up dying inside.” [17:03]

Signs of Social Progress (18:28–19:14)

• Citing Steven Pinker, Houston insists we are improving collectively (“less violence...more conscious”) but stresses the need for ongoing action and connection.

The Gift of Aging (20:29–21:17)

• Houston doesn’t dwell on aging: “I never think about it....there’s so much to do and to be.” [20:29]
• Finds the second half of life “the most exciting, the most interesting,” emphasizing growing heartfulness and presence. [21:00]

Moving Beyond ‘Being Seen’ (22:15–23:01)

• Houston discusses outgrowing show-business-influenced focus on appearances.
  • “You are there to be of service, and you’re not there to be seen.” [22:57]

The Message for Today (24:03–24:53)

• Her core message: “We have been gifted by God with human possibilities and capacities that are so huge and in many ways, we have barely begun to really tap into who and what we are....Above all, that we are sourced in spirit....It’s seeing the others that engenders the others to their possibility.” [24:03]

The Soul, Death, and Continuity (27:30–30:10)

• Houston describes the soul as “the essence of who and what we are....the lure of our becoming.” [27:34]
  • On near-death experiences: “I had a profound sense of continuity....I really believe that we are continuous in one way or the other....it is a huge educational process, and I don’t think it ends.” [28:53–30:10]
• Not afraid of death, but believes “we’re always in process...upheld by the lure of becoming.” [30:33]

What is God? (30:50–31:39)

• God as evolving concept: from personal to “the universe” to the “love that moves the sun and all the stars.”
  • “We are God seeds. Becoming God selves, I think.” [31:39]

On Prayer, Purpose, and Collective Humanity (31:51–32:52)

• Houston prays “all the time,” focusing on being of service:
  • “Please make me be a benefit to someone or something today.” [31:57]
• The greatest need:
  • “The world needs the sense that we are all in it together.” [32:19]
• Affirmation of faith in love, purpose, and this unique moment in history.
  • “I believe we are headed ultimately in the right direction....I believe in love. I believe in you. I believe in me. I believe in this, the most potent moment in human history.” [32:52]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “A woman is just like a tea bag. You put her in hot water and she just gets stronger.” – Eleanor Roosevelt, shared by Houston [04:42]
• “I would call myself an evocateur of the possible and a midwife of souls.” – Jean Houston [05:07]
• “We are always wearing those ruby slippers.” – Oprah [16:22]
• “Radical empathy. Because then you become smarter....calling forth the depth and genius of the other, then we grow.” – Jean Houston [14:58–15:12]
• “The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.” – Oprah/Jean Houston quoting Joseph Campbell [27:25]
• “The soul is...the lure of our becoming.” – Jean Houston [27:34]
• “We are God seeds. Becoming God selves, I think.” – Jean Houston [31:39]
• “The world needs the sense that we are all in it together.” – Jean Houston [32:19]
• “I believe in love. I believe in you....the most potent moment in human history.” – Jean Houston [32:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jean’s Early Life and Parental Influence: 01:54–03:30
• Meeting Eleanor Roosevelt: 03:42–05:07
• Mystical Childhood Experience: 05:19–07:06
• The Hero’s Journey Explained: 07:28–09:53, 15:12–18:28
• The Role of Community and Radical Empathy: 14:13–15:12
• Wizard of Oz as Spiritual Allegory: 15:43–18:28
• Aging and Wisdom: 20:29–21:17
• Core Message on Human Potential: 24:03–24:53
• Soul and the Continuity of Life: 27:30–30:10
• Definition of God: 30:50–31:39
• Central Prayer and Humanity’s Need: 31:51–32:52
• Final Affirmation: 32:52–33:38

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Conclusion

With warmth, humor, and brilliant insight, Jean Houston and Oprah inspire listeners to heed life's callings, embrace radical empathy, and become stewards of human potential. Drawing on myth, personal story, and spiritual wisdom, the conversation weaves a tapestry of encouragement for anyone seeking deeper meaning and connection. The message: We are all on a mythic journey, always “wearing the ruby slippers,” and it's time we walk together, with love, radical empathy, and a commitment to becoming all we are meant to be.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. She is known as a scholar, a philosopher, and a visionary. Jean Houston is a prolific writer who has traversed this globe lecturing, teaching, consulting with world leaders. Along the way, she says her life has been devoted to pushing the boundaries of human potential. I just love that after six decades of this work, she's become known as one of the elder spiritual states women of our time. You are one good looking 75 year old.

[Jean Houston]

Thank you. I'm half Sicilian. It's 4,000 years of olive oil.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is that what it is?

[Jean Houston]

Through the system? Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is that what it is or is it your gene pool, your spiritual gene pool?

[Jean Houston]

I think it's a passion for the possible. I think it's living in this, which must be the most interesting time in human history, where what we do will make a profound difference as to whether we grow or whether we perish. And it's that sense of urgency and possibility, the lure of becoming, I think, that keeps me going. I've worked in 108 countries and I see, you know, I'm very positive because I'm there to see how people come together, how they help each other, how they cross the great divide of otherness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are you, do you marvel at the breadth and depth of, of your 75 years here on the planet?

[Jean Houston]

Well, I've been very fortunate. See, I grew up in a comical family. My father wrote the Bob Hope show and all those shows. And I was exposed to, you know, absurdity and laughter as a way of life. And then I went to 20 schools before I was 12. And I was always told by my mother how lucky I was. My mother was a Shakespearean actor. So I was, as a little child, you know, made to recite. Make me a willow cabin at your gate Call upon my soul within the house. So there was that. My parents were very kind people, and so they were always in human service in one way or the other. And then I was a Girl Scout from the time I was really quite young. And there we.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What a generous thing to be able to say about your parents. My parents were very kind to calm people. Do you have met the great citizens of the world? I mean, the Dalai Lama, the Eleanor Roosevelt.

[Jean Houston]

Can I tell you about her?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Please do.

[Jean Houston]

Well, I was, what, 16? And I was president of my high school, Julia Richmond. And Mrs. Roosevelt was gathering the young presidents of high schools and getting us together, and she would. She was trying to get us interested in international affairs and working in the union. And she. I remember, Oprah, that she used words like wands, pungent, trying to. And we felt inspirited, you know, with a new sense of purpose by her use of language. By her use of language and her deep presence. She had an extraordinary presence. And we just felt ourselves, you know, activated by the look. And she really got us very interested in human rights. She actually turned to me once and said, my dear, I rather suspect you're going to have a most interesting career. But remember, my dear, that as a woman in the professions, you can expect to be trashed. You didn't use the word trashed. It was something else. But remember, too, my dear, that a woman is just like a tea bag. You put her in hot water and she just gets stronger, which has proved to be so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's good. That's good. You know, you've been described, there are so many you described as a mystic, a philosopher, a historian, a scholar. What words do you use to describe yourself?

[Jean Houston]

I would call myself an evocateur of the possible and a midwife of souls.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow. You know, did you evolve to that, or did you start out being that, really?

[Jean Houston]

Well, I did have an experience when I was 6 years old. May I tell you? Please do. Please. Really got you going. My father, being an agnostic, Baptist, being. He had to become a Catholic to marry my mother, whose name was Maria Nunciada Serafina Gracia. And so they sent me to Catholic school in the first grade, and I got into a lot of trouble with the nun for asking interesting Questions?

[Oprah Winfrey]

What'd you ask?

[Jean Houston]

Well, I did ask, when Ezekiel saw the wheel, was he drunk? I mean, it was questions like that kind of thing. Anyway, Sister Theresa gave me 300 million years in purgatory. And I went home crying, and my father was laughing. You know that I got this because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You asked the questions.

[Jean Houston]

That I asked the questions. And so, to get away from my father and his laughter, I went and prayed in the closet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Gene remembers praying for a miracle that day, even promising to give up candy for two weeks if her prayers could be answered. And when she opened the closet door, she says, something felt different.

[Jean Houston]

Suddenly, the whole world shifted. I didn't see anything different, Oprah. I didn't hear anything different. How old? I was six years old.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Six.

[Jean Houston]

But suddenly the whole world moved into meaning. Literally, all of reality was there, and it was all moving together, and it was very, very good. And I was in a universe of fellowship in which everything was joyous and part of a great, tremendous unity of which I was a part of. In a state of bliss. Childhood awareness.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Awareness, yeah. So was that clarifying moment for you at six years old? Did it last? Could you stay in that space? Did you know? Were you in that awareness? Always? Did that carry you from that moment?

[Jean Houston]

I've never been asked that. I would say that childhood kept those memories alive. Adolescence gave it passion in Eros. And then, you know, I went on with doctoral degrees and academics, and I almost lost it, but not quite. I was always flush against some kind of extraordinary experience or person. Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Lately, I've been rereading the works of Joseph Campbell, the great American writer and mythologist. If the phrase follow your bliss sounds familiar, that is Joseph Campbell. Millions of viewers first learned about him in the 1980s in Bill Moyer's popular PBS series the Power of Myth. Campbell wrote about what he calls the hero's journey. From Homer's Odyssey to Star wars and Luke Skywalker. Campbell noted the universal themes in myths and stories through the ages and around the world. And just like our favorite book and movie characters, Campbell says, we are the heroes of our own life stories. You were great friends with Joseph Campbell.

[Jean Houston]

Yeah, knew him very well, and we did some work together. We taught seminars together. He was lots of fun. He was one of the happiest men I ever knew. I mean, bliss was no mere metaphor with him, but what he would do is he would tell a myth, and then I would provide exercises so people could experience the hero's journey if it was. That's what we were dealing with. To really, how do they Feel the call.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Campbell says the first step in the hero's journey is what he describes as the call to adventure. He says somewhere inside all of us, there is a longing for something more, a knowing that your soul's path is calling out to you. And once you recognize that feeling and heed that call, your life, which is your adventure, truly begins. Does everyone have it? Does everyone have. We all have it. Is every human being, do you believe that every human being has the call.

[Jean Houston]

In one way or another? Often the first call is, well, I want to get married or I need to get a job, the usual calls. And then at a certain point, at a point that I would call second genesis, the next level of our possibility just starts to rise. And you feel, wait a minute, there's more to me than that. There simply is more. And then the call, the yearning comes. And sometimes the call will come as a bummer. I mean, why did you do this? Why did you do that? Look at that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why did this happen to me?

[Jean Houston]

Why did this happen to me? And then you start to seek and search and explore deeper and deeper. Then takes you into the deeper parts of yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Have you found, discovered, recognized that there's nothing out of order, that everything that is happening can be used for the good of us?

[Jean Houston]

Well, I think ultimately that may be true. That's part of what my friend Jim Hillman called the soul's code.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I interviewed him a long time ago here. Yes, the soul's code. The acorn within the oak. Everybody has acorn.

[Jean Houston]

It's what I call entelechy or the higher guidance, the great friend. I think there is a deeper code when you finally get frustrated or yearning enough that you say, I am ready for the rest of my life to rise.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

So there was a time, when was it back in the 90s when you were going through, I think, what you described as a painful period in your life when you had gone to the White House for Hillary Clinton.

[Jean Houston]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And as you were sitting having a conversation.

[Jean Houston]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The order of things was that you asked her if she'd be interested in speaking to Eleanor Roosevelt or what happened?

[Jean Houston]

No, what happened is that I was helping Hillary write a book called It Takes a Village to Raise a Child. Not just me, but we were working away and working and she was so tired. And I said, come on, Hillary, you've got to talk to somebody, somebody about who would you have loved to talk to? And she said, Mrs. Roosevelt. I mean, Mrs. Roosevelt was, you know, a great model. And I said, all right, let's imagine a conversation. What would you say to Mrs. Roosevelt? What would you say to you? It was really, it was a classic old fashioned role playing game. That is all it was. And somehow it got out to the press and suddenly it was all over and it had become a seance. I've never even been to a seance. But it was a very different.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you were called a guru. Called a guru.

[Jean Houston]

In my definition, guru is spelled G U R U G U R U. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But was that painful? Because I heard that by the time you got home, the reporters had covered your lawn.

[Jean Houston]

Yes, hundreds. Hundreds, Hundreds of reporters. It was a slow day for news. But, you know, I went on and did something else. I went on and I began to work with people with Alzheimer's. I went from the White House to the nursing homes and I found something so wonderful. And so that's what I do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your autobiography, written almost now, two decades ago. A mythic life.

[Jean Houston]

Sixteen years. Yes, yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Learning to live our greater story.

[Jean Houston]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Does everyone have a greater story?

[Jean Houston]

Oh, really? I hope so, and I believe it. But it does take a level of encouragement and of not just encouragement, but of development. It's a question of people getting together in teaching, learning communities, teaching learning circles, growing in body, mind and spirit together, really beginning to really expand their inner capacities, expand their sense of radical empathy to others. Wow. Radical empathy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I gotta stop with that for a moment. Expand the inner capacity, our inner capacity for radical empathy.

[Jean Houston]

Radical empathy. Because then you become smarter. And I think that when we're in community, when we are really sharing, when we are calling forth the depth and genius of the other, then we grow. Then we grow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We were talking a little bit earlier about Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey. How would you describe what the hero's journey is? I mean, for those of you who are listening to us right now, you've got to read Joseph Campbell.

[Jean Houston]

Joseph found it in. He studied 240 separate cultures and myths and he found that this was a sequence that you found in virtually all of them. Yes. Okay. Now let's look at within the structure of a Myth. I have a new book, as you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Know, the wizard of Us.

[Jean Houston]

The wizard of Us.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, the wizard of Us.

[Jean Houston]

That's right. And I take it by looking at what happens in that phenomenal story that a great deal of the world knows. And then.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's one of my favorite spiritual teachings. Yes, it is. I remember I was probably 7 or 8 years old when I figured out that it was more than just a story about a yellow brick road and that there was deeper. I remember when I realized, oh, those were her friends. And the yellow brick road means going up the path and looking all outside of yourself. That's right. And then it's always right here.

[Jean Houston]

And it's right here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's always right here.

[Jean Houston]

You're always wearing those red shoes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're always wearing the ruby slippers. I remember that moment when I discovered that. So I guess that was your six year old moment.

[Jean Houston]

Well, yes, it Was like my six year old moment. And what it is is that there is the first part of the call. Because the hero's journey begins with a call. You were called, were you not, by that story? Called, as Dorothy is called to get out of that outmoded situation of Dust Bowl, Kansas, somewhere over the rainbow, that tremendous yearning. Many people feel a yearning and then they say, I don't know, that's called the refusal of the call. And then finally they can't stand themselves. And so sometimes it takes a big event to break them through. What was your big event was your tornado?

[Oprah Winfrey]

My tornado was leaving Nashville. I felt the yearning. I felt the yearning to leave Nashville. Even though everybody said to me, you know, you're going to fail out there. It's going to be tough out there. And then particularly the big one was coming to Chicago. When I moved from Baltimore to Chicago, there was every single person in my life except my best friend Gail, said, you're going to fail. And I said, even if I fail, I still have to go because if I stay here, I'm going to be smothered. Which is exactly what he says in the Hero's Journey. If you don't accept the yearning, then you end up dying inside.

[Jean Houston]

You're dying inside.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Jean Houston]

And you can't do that. So she arrives in Oz. Oz, and everything is Technicolor. And the little people recognize her. And then she is sent on the road of spiritual power. The yellow brick road is the road of spiritual pollen. You find this in many myths. Okay, and who does she meet? She met the disempowered parts of herself. The disempowered mind, the, you know, Scarecrow. Scarecrow. The disempowered heart. And feeling the Tin Man. Wow. The disempowered courage. The cowardly Lion. And then comes the journey in which the intelligence is increased. Or the man of intelligence, the mind who thought he'd. If I only had a brain. He finds out he has a great brain. And so you see, part of my work and the work in that book, the wizard of Us, is to show people how to enhance their minds, how to enhance their brains, how to grow and amplify their heart.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are we getting better?

[Jean Houston]

Well, was it Steven Pinker who just wrote a book saying, yes, there's less violence, believe it or not, less war than there was 50 years ago. That's one thing. But I think more and more people are becoming more conscious. I really see it happening. But it does need people like yourself, myself and many of the people that we can Name, as well as all those people who are out there saying, we are in the time of renaissance, of a radical new possibility, because we are in the time truly of either or, of grow or die, of making peace. Sexy. You know, peace is potency. It's reaching, it's sprouting, it's planting. It's this new energy. It's people reaching out, crossing the great divide of otherness and making connections that they never did before.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you feel in some way that your work has allowed you to pass the torch to a new generation?

[Jean Houston]

Well, you know, when I work, especially around the world, I'm often with young people. Well, I am now, too, but I'm just saying, even more so because I work in so many countries, and I don't know that it's a passing of the torch, I find myself ignited by these young people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's interesting. That's interesting.

[Jean Houston]

I think it's very mutual. It isn't. I don't regard myself as being primary in any particular way at all. But to really be there with another is to see greatness. That's what I find in almost every person I meet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

As we sat down and you were being miked, you just casually said, I'm 75. And when you're 75, you no longer worry about what you look like and what it's gonna. You look beautiful.

[Jean Houston]

Well, thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I would never have. I had read that you were 75, and then when I saw you, I went, I wonder, did I read that correctly that you're 75? How has the aging process been for you? Have you. Did it bother you at all? I mean, I talked to women who are turning 40 who are like, oh, I can't believe I'm turning 40.

[Jean Houston]

Well, I never think. Think about it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You never think about it?

[Jean Houston]

Never ever. I mean, there's so much to do and to be. As I say, we're in this extraordinary time in human history, and I think having, you know, they say 75 years, that still is the breath of life. You also have access to the depths. I find that. That second or even third, the second half of life to be the most exciting, the most interesting. I mean, I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When did it get good for you?

[Jean Houston]

Started to get really good at 60.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really?

[Jean Houston]

Yeah, really good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How so?

[Jean Houston]

Well, because I think it was because your sense of heart, your heartfulness increases. And when your heartfulness increases, fullness increases. Fullness increases.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Interesting.

[Jean Houston]

And in that, you have a generalized affection. And it is that generalized affection. Affection. And you're always looking for both the deeper aspect of anything that you see, as well as what is actually trying to. And you try to be of use. But I would also say it is to really be present to the depths and beauty within each person and the higher purpose. I really think that many people are waking up to a deeper sense of purpose. They have to. It could be the earth. Earth or something.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, the fact that we're sitting here talking about this means that there's enough people awake to watch us and make this viable. Tell me, 75, what is the lesson that was the hardest for you to learn? You know, so many times we keep repeating the same lesson. It comes in a different form. It wears a different pair of pants. What was the lesson that took you the longest to learn?

[Jean Houston]

Because I grew up in show business, there was always an emphasis on how one is seen. And not that that was very heavy, but it was always there in the back. And my father, I remember once, my father, when I was still quite young and I was a college professor, and I was carrying an old saddleback, and my father said to me, jeannie, you can't get on the plane. We're carrying that. You might sit down next to some famous professor. And I remember turning to him and saying, dad, I am the famous professor. But I think that you go beyond caring, really. You are there to be of service, and you're not there to be seen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So I think that was the hardest lesson.

[Jean Houston]

I don't know if it was the hardest part, but it was a major one.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Tell me, what is the message that that is most imperative for you at this stage in your life that you most want people to know?

[Jean Houston]

I want people to know that we have been gifted by God with human possibilities and capacities that are so huge and in many ways, we have barely begun to really tap into who and what we are. We have many, many, many different Persona, many different talents within us. That our story is mythic, that we are all on hero, heroines, journeys. And above all, that we are sourced in spirit. That we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And by golly, we are adequate to the challenge of the time, but also to see it in others. It's the seeing in the others. I think that's really what I meant by the seeing. It's seeing as you have so much in your life, it's the seeing in the others that engenders the others to their possibility.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's crossing that bridge of otherness.

[Jean Houston]

The bridge of otherness?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jean Houston]

Well, let me ask you, where do you want to be at 75?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I want to look as good as you do. And I want to be. I want to be fully. I want to fully embody the calling. I think I'm sort of like touching around the edges of it. And I knew that for me to release the Oprah show, which was very comfortable for me to do, and I'd created that base. But to release that and to step into this next generation of being able to reach people at a different level, I knew that that would be challenging. But I want to. I want to go out like a comet knowing that I really fulfilled the mission. That's what I want. And at 75, I want to be able to be able to sit in. Sit here on a Sunday morning and say, I am doing exactly what I want to be doing. I want this platform that we're speaking on right now to be an international, worldwide service for people. And I want millions of people to join us all over the planet in the gathering of our community here to talk about these ideas that become idealized and actualized within the human spirit. That's what I want.

[Jean Houston]

A worldwide teaching, learning, community.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what I want.

[Jean Houston]

There you go.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what I want. That's what I want. And what do you want as you sit here and in the decades to come, what do you want?

[Jean Houston]

I want. I want people to really understand that the power of love and loving. I want people to look out at the world and say, I am a citizen of the most beautiful planet in the world. I have been given this holy incarnation. Extremely unlikely. You know, I look at people and say, you know, don't put yourself down. You won the ultimate Olympics. You are the sperm and the ovum that made it. Million sperms.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The million. I always say that too.

[Jean Houston]

There they go. There's millions. But I think it is to have a deep appreciation of the life that one is given and the life of others, and then to act accordingly in the depths of that appreciation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To understand what Joseph Campbell said, the privilege of a lifetime.

[Jean Houston]

The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. Being who you are. Indeed. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the soul?

[Jean Houston]

I believe that the soul is the essence of who and what we are. I personally believe that it transcends our leaving this mortal coil. And I think it is also, in part. I think in part, it is also that great friend that I talked about that it comes with codes and possibilities and the next layers of who and what we may yet be. It is all often a pain in the neck because it says, wake up. It's time to wake up. Don't go to sleep. I think it is also the lure of our becoming. That's what I think the soul is.

[Commercial Narrator]

Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Got to take that in a minute. The lure of our becoming.

[Jean Houston]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did you even come up with those words? I don't know.

[Jean Houston]

I'm talking to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The lure of our becoming.

[Jean Houston]

I'm talking to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is the lure of our becoming. Wow. That's fantastic. That's great. So what happens when we die?

[Jean Houston]

What do I think?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, what do you think?

[Jean Houston]

Well, I've nearly died on several occasions. Once it was when I was 19, I used to jump out of planes. I mean, with a parachute. It was very interesting because one day I hadn't packed my parachute well, so I was pulling and pulling on my red. Nothing was happening. Nothing was happening. And my whole life from 0 to 19 went by it own time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was there a life review?

[Jean Houston]

There was a complete life review at its own time. Not every little pork chop and Hershey bar, but it was the basic one. And then either the shoot open or you and I are having a lovely conversation in paradise. But once I had typhoid fever in Crete and it really nearly died. But I had a profound sense of continuity. So several times that this has happened. So I really believe that we are continuous in one way or the other. And I think that this universal, this universal university that we're in gives us Earth School. Zhukov calls it Earth Earth School. And it may be also Universe school too. I think it gives us a great many opportunities for all kinds of learning, especially where we are in the Earth, where we're given sufficient paradise, sufficient problems, challenge, opportunities, variety, in order to grow ourselves into whatever it is that we're going to become. For one thing, to become stewards of this Earth instead of the bad mal users of The Earth. So I really believe that it is a huge educational process, and I don't think it ends.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It ends in each of those examples at 19, with the jumping out of the plane, the typhoid. Were you afraid of death in that moment? Yes.

[Jean Houston]

I've never been afraid of death.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Never been afraid?

[Jean Houston]

No. I've always had a sense of continuity from the time I was a little child.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I think Joseph Campbell said, we're not afraid of dying. We're afraid of how we die.

[Jean Houston]

Of how we die, yes, but not of dying.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you sensed the continuity from the time you were six years old.

[Jean Houston]

I think it's a cat caterpillar becoming a butterfly, really. So I think we're always in process. I seem to be a process. I seem to be a verb of becoming upheld by the lure of becoming that keeps us going on. Wow.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is your definition of God?

[Jean Houston]

It varies from day to day. When I was a little girl, it was a very personal person. As I got older, it became the universe. It became the universe in us. But mostly, I think it is the wonderful words from Dante. La mori chi movi e sole lotrestelle. The love that moves the sun and all the stars and moves in my heart and in yours and is part for me. It is also part of the evolution of our becoming because we are coded. We are coded in ourselves, but becoming. We are coded in our hearts, and we are coded into. We are God seeds. Becoming God selves, I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ooh, that's a good. That's a good one. That's a tweet, tweet, y'. All. God seeds. Wow. You are a quote a minute. You're just an Aha. A moment. Do you pray all the time?

[Jean Houston]

All the time, yes. Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the central focus of your prayer?

[Jean Houston]

Well, and the first thing I ever say in the morning is, dear God. See, I still use that language. Please make me be a benefit to someone or something today.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Mine is the same.

[Jean Houston]

Use me, use me, use me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you complete this sentence? The world needs.

[Jean Houston]

The world needs the sense that we are all in it together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Jean Houston]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Boy, that makes me want to weep. Because if we did, gee, everything would change. If everybody just under the sound of your voice and my voice could take that in. Everything would shift. Yeah, it would. All right. I believe in.

[Jean Houston]

I believe that we are here with deep purpose to become all that we can be. I believe that we have been given the most beautiful planet in the galaxy to work out and to enjoy. It isn't just a working out. It is truly to enjoy the gifts of our incarnation. I believe that we are headed ultimately in the right direction. I believe that we have been given sufficient stress, crisis, complexity, and consciousness to do things that are beyond our imagination, larger than our aspiration, more complex than all our dreams. I believe in love. I believe in you. I believe in me. I believe in this, the most potent moment in human history.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that is it, ladies and gentlemen. You cannot say another word in an interview after that.

[Jean Houston]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Commercial Narrator]

Hi, I'm Kaelyn Coleman, winner of Target's HBCU Design Challenge. This challenge moved me closer to my dream of becoming a fashion designer. Through mentorship and support. You can find my design, along with creations from other black founders in Target's Black History Month collection.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Power.

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