Super Soul Special: Nate Berkus: Design for Your Spirit

Summary

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Oprah's Super Soul Special: Nate Berkus — Design for Your Spirit

Date: February 12, 2025
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Nate Berkus

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal conversation, Oprah sits down with famed interior designer Nate Berkus to explore the soulful side of design and the transformative role our living spaces play in our lives. Rooted in stories of love, loss, personal discovery, and the objects that tell our stories, the interview transcends design tips and delves into the spiritual resonance of the things that surround us. Nate shares the journey of coming into himself—as a designer, as a gay man, and as a survivor of profound tragedy. Together, Oprah and Nate discuss authenticity, grief, and the ways in which our homes become reflections of our inner worlds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Meaning of Objects in Our Lives

• Design as a Spiritual Practice (04:16)
  • Nate shares how, for him, design isn’t just an aesthetic exercise—it’s a spiritual endeavor that reflects and shapes our inner worlds.
  • “A lot of people have asked me over the years, is design a spiritual endeavor? And I’ve always believed it was. I never really had the language to describe why… until I sat down to do this book.” — Nate Berkus (04:15)
  • Oprah connects this to Rainn Wilson’s idea that there’s no difference between art and prayer—a creation is an offering, a gift, in alignment with something greater (04:33–04:46).
• Things as Memory and Legacy
  • Oprah reads from Nate’s book: “Things matter. They have to. They’re what we live with and touch each and every day… they represent what we’ve seen, who we’ve loved and where we hope to go next.” (03:39)
  • Nate reflects, “It reminds us of the good times and the rough patches and everything in between that’s made us who we are.” (04:13)
• Global Universality of Beauty
  • Both share experiences from around the world—Oprah’s trip to Africa, witnessing people decorating in the simplest circumstances, and a story about a Haitian girl making a decorated dollhouse in a tent (07:13–08:13).
  • “Things matter. Beauty matters.” — Oprah (08:14)

2. Discovering One’s Calling

• Early Roots of Passion for Design (06:05)
  • Nate describes his “acorn moment” at 13, getting his own bedroom and finding joy in transforming a raw space.
  • “I cared so much about the way things looked, but more importantly, about the way things felt.” — Nate Berkus (06:05)
• Homes as Reflections of Self
  • “When you are connected to those kinds of things, meaning your inner world, the space around you really matters, because it reflects your inner space.” — Oprah (07:01)

3. The Journey of Coming Out and Self-Acceptance

• Family Responses
  • Nate shares his stepfather’s compassionate approach: knowing but not telling, showing acceptance by treating him no differently (09:40).
  • “He wanted me to know that…there’s your proof. I don’t feel any differently about you now than I did before I found this out about you.” — Nate Berkus (10:29)
• Space to Grieve Parental Expectations (14:00)
  • Oprah and Nate discuss how coming out also means giving loved ones space to process and grieve the life they envisioned for you.
  • “Your child, I believe, should respect that. Give them the space to mourn, to grieve, the life they thought you were going to have.” — Nate Berkus (14:39)
• Learning Dishonesty as Survival
  • Nate reveals how growing up gay led him to develop hiding skills, and how adulthood is about unlearning them (15:11).
  • “When you know you’re gay, you’re trying to hide it. You feel that you have to lie so you’re not cast out.” (15:11–15:47)
• Reaching Understanding with His Father
  • Nate recounts a pivotal airport conversation where he asked for respect and understanding (17:06–19:29).
  • “Dad, why would I choose something to make my life more difficult?...being gay is the way I was born…I would never choose something to make my life complicated.” — Nate Berkus (18:25)
  • His father’s response: “If you say that you were born this way and you didn’t make a choice, then we’re good.” (19:39)

4. Influences, Mentors, and Finding One’s Path

• Strong Female Mentors
  • Nate credits women—from his grandmother, mother, teachers, to Oprah herself—as guiding “angels” in his life (20:53).
• Kindness and Meaningful Words (22:12)
  • Nate shares a treasured letter from his French teacher affirming his kindness and promise.
  • “She knew I would have a life that was filled with joy because I was kind.” — Nate Berkus (22:12)
  • Oprah: “Words are my treasure…best gift anybody can give me is a well-written, thoughtful note.” (22:01)

5. The Design of a Life

• Letting Beauty Find You
  • Nate on inspiration: “I let things find me. I let objects find me. I let beauty find me in any of its forms.” (23:24)
• Defining and Assembling a Life
  • Discovery through relationship: seeing someone construct their own life inspired Nate to launch his own firm and design his timeline (24:04, 24:25)
  • “That freedom to actually create and design my own world and timeline—that was the single thing that propelled me to start my design firm.” (24:25)
• Setbacks, Authenticity, and Lessons from Failure
  • Oprah and Nate candidly dissect why his daily talk show didn’t work: it didn’t allow space for authenticity or for his process (25:13–28:03).
  • “If you cannot be authentic, if you cannot be true to yourself…all the other things that supposedly matter mean nothing. Because that is the thing that really matters.” — Oprah (20:07)
  • Nate: “For two years, I was unrecognizable to myself.” (27:39)
  • The relief at the show’s end led him back to therapy and self-work (29:51).

6. Home as Emotional Archive

• Homes Should Tell Our Stories
  • “A home has to reflect the people that live there, tell the stories of who they are. And it’s not instant—it should be assembled and layered over time.” — Nate Berkus (33:20)
  • Oprah admits she hadn’t “lived” in her homes for 25 years, connecting this with her preference for outdoor spaces designed by God—not people (34:00–34:17).

7. Mindful Acquisition & The Spirit Behind Things

• Acquisition with Intention
  • Nate: “Before you do it, you need to stop and ask yourself the question: Is this really serving me in my home? Is this telling the story of who I am?” (35:14)
  • Warns against buying something just because it’s trendy or seen elsewhere.

8. Loss, Love, and Objects That Hold Spirit

• Fernando’s Story—Loss in the Tsunami (36:19)
  • Nate recounts the immense personal tragedy of losing his partner, Fernando Bingochea, in the 2004 tsunami and the role of Fernando’s handwoven photographs gifted shortly before the accident.
  • The art pieces remain his most treasured possessions, imprinted with Fernando’s essence.
  • “They are the most meaningful things to me. They represent his soul, his heart…And the fact that he wanted me to have them…was just a level of generosity that I don’t think comes around a lot.” — Nate Berkus (38:33)
  • “I was loved that way.” (39:22)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On objects and memory:
  “Things matter. They have to…they remind us of the good times and the rough patches and everything in between that’s made us who we are.” — (03:39)
• On finding one’s spiritual calling:
  “I was the kid that cared so much about the things around me, but more importantly…the way things felt.” — Nate Berkus (06:05)
• Coming out as spiritual practice:
  “I had to get still and really hear what he was saying. I believed him because he showed me.” — Nate (10:59)
• On authenticity:
  “If you cannot be authentic, if you cannot be true to yourself, then all the other things mean nothing. Because that is the thing that really matters.” — Oprah (20:07)
• On grief and letting go:
  “Give them the time to let go of that dream, but make it safe for them in the process.” — Nate (14:51)
• On home and identity:
  “A home has to reflect the people that live there. And it’s not instant, it should be assembled and layered over time.” — Nate (33:20)
• On beauty and survival:
  “You’re living in a tent, you don’t have a doll, you have a cardboard box and you’re decorating. Why? Because things matter. Beauty matters.” — Oprah (08:14)
• On loss and objects imbued with spirit:
  “They are the most meaningful things to me... he touched them, pieces of it...I think to myself, I was loved that way.” — Nate (39:22)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Oprah introduces Nate and sets context: 01:20–03:24
• Meaning of things—spiritual design: 03:30–04:33
• Childhood & discovering love for design: 05:57–07:01
• Universality of beauty & decoration: 07:13–08:19
• Coming out, family reactions, and spiritual lessons: 09:05–14:51
• Learning to be authentic, discussion of talk show: 25:13–29:51
• How home reflects inner space: 33:19–34:47
• Mindful consumption: 35:06–36:19
• Coping with loss through objects: 36:19–39:34

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Language and Tone

Heartfelt, introspective, and candid—Oprah and Nate alternate between deeply personal stories, vulnerable admissions, and larger philosophical insights, all delivered with warmth and mutual respect. The tone is both affirming and challenging, pushing the listener towards greater authenticity and self-connection.

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For anyone seeking wisdom about design, home, and the deeper story of who we are, this episode is a soulful guide—an invitation to see our spaces, our possessions, and our choices as sacred and meaningful parts of our spiritual journey.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. It was obvious Nate Berkus was born to do what he loves. From the time he can remember, he watched and studied his mom, Nancy golden, an interior designer raised in Minneapolis by his mother and stepfather. Nate's love for decorating and design continued to grow as he grew up. At 24, he opened his own design firm in Chicago, quickly building a name for himself. In 2002, Nate made his first appearance on the Oprah show, redesigning a teeny tiny one room apartment. I'll never forget it. He was an instant fan favorite, transforming homes and lives for the next eight years. In 2004, our viewers got to know Nate on a more personal level and nobody could have anticipated what happened. He was vacationing in Sri Lanka with his partner Fernando Bingochea when the devastating Indian Ocean tsunami hit. Nate and Fernando were swept away in a torrent of debris filled water. When a massive wave separated them from one another, Fernando disappeared. Nate never saw him again. To call it a life changing defining moment doesn't come close to describing the impact this experience had on Nate. He says it changed everything. His entire perspective on life on love and design. With help, Nate persevered and Returned to the work he loves. In 2010, he got what he called the opportunity of a lifetime. The Nate Berkus show was launched and ran for two seasons. Since then, he debuted a successful home collection for Target. And most recently, he wrote his second book, beautifully titled the the Things that Matter. I read this book because when the book first came out, I read it because it's you.

[Nate Berkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I got it because it was you. I remember tweeting that I'm gonna get it and pay for it myself.

[Nate Berkus]

And you did, by the way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I did.

[Nate Berkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not only. No, you don't know. I bought 12 copies of this book. 12 copies. And it's given to my friends. May I say, I think it's the best thing you've done.

[Nate Berkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It really is. It's a beautiful book. And I tell everybody that it's about the things, the things we can hold in our hands, but it's about what's really underneath the things. I think what you say actually on the opening page of this book, the truth is that things matter. They have to. They're what we live with and touch each and every day, and they represent what we've seen, who we've loved, and where we hope to go next. They remind us of the good times and the rough patches and. And everything in between that's made us who we are.

[Nate Berkus]

It's true. Yeah, it's true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

That was really the point of the book for me. It was. You know, a lot of people have asked me over the years, is design a spiritual endeavor? And I've always believed that it was. I've never really had the language to describe why I felt that way until I sat down to do this book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know what is, too, because when we were here with Rainn Wilson, Rainn Wilson said something to me several years ago that there's really no difference between art and prayer.

[Nate Berkus]

That's fascinating.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't that fascinating?

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when you are creating design, it really is an offering. It's a gift. In order to do it well, you have to be in alignment with that which is the creator.

[Nate Berkus]

That's a really interesting statement, isn't it? Yeah. I've never thought about that before.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love to make you think of something you hadn't thought of before.

[Nate Berkus]

I never thought about it, but this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is what I loved. Getting through the rough patches and everything in between that's made us who we are. We do so much talking on here about being who you really are. And years ago on the Oprah show, there was a guy named James Hillman who wrote a book called the Soul's Code. And in that, he talked about the acorn within the oak that lives in all of us. Inside, there's this. We're born with it. And however that's nurtured and it gets brought into fruition to become the oak that is your life. All of us have those moments, and I know so many people are in the process of trying to discover it. For me, it was standing in front of the Buffalo Methodist Church doing my first Easterpiece. And for you, I saw the moment.

[Nate Berkus]

When was it?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let me tell you what moment was.

[Nate Berkus]

Tell me. When I found my acorn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, Your acorn was 13 when you were in mitzvah.

[Nate Berkus]

Totally.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And.

[Nate Berkus]

And I got my own bedroom and.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You got your own bedroom.

[Nate Berkus]

It really was. So. I was the kid that cared so much about the things around me, cared so much about the way things looked, but more importantly, the way things felt. That I was tortured by sharing a bedroom with my younger brother. And for me, it was my own space. And my mother knew that. I don't think she knew that I would end up working in design. I don't think she knew that I would end up being on your show. I don't think that anyone predicts or tries to or dreams for that. But what she did know was that her son was the kind of person that had to control the way a space felt and the way a space looked, and that I would get great pleasure out of. Not just the privacy. That wasn't the point. It was the selection. It was the process. It was watching a space that was raw, concrete walls in a basement, be transformed into a space where I could live out my daily life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because when you are connected to those kinds of things, when you are those kinds of things, meaning your inner world, the space around you really matters. Really matters, because the space around you reflects your inner space.

[Nate Berkus]

And I think it's universal. I think no matter who we are or what we have or we don't have, everybody wants to live better. I think it's. I think, cross culturally. I've seen it myself with my own eyes, and I've been impacted by it. And you've told a story on the show, many years of being in Africa. Remember the woman who had tacked up the little piece of fabric?

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was thinking about that the second you said that.

[Nate Berkus]

That story stayed with me forever.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. She's in a shack and she's tacked up a little piece of fabric over.

[Nate Berkus]

And you asked her why didn't you? And she said, because it's pretty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because it's pretty. And recently, last year at this time, I was in Haiti with Sean Penn and. And I sat with a father and his two daughters. They'd lost their mother and basically they're still living in the tents. The daughter had made a little dollhouse and really makes me emotional to think about it. And in the little dollhouse, she also found a little piece of fabric to put over the windows. You're living in a tent. You don't have a doll. You have a cardboard box.

[Nate Berkus]

And you're decorating.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you're decorating. You're decorating. Why? Because things matter. Beauty matters.

[Nate Berkus]

It really does.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Beauty matters. So you moved into the basement, which was really kind of not one step above drywall. Right.

[Nate Berkus]

But I watched the process. And I was the kid that ran home from school to see if the sink had been installed or if the tile had gone in or if the cabinets were coming in or my desk.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Weren't you happiest when your sink tops arrived?

[Nate Berkus]

I mean, the joy is indescribable. But, you know, you take that. As a 13 year old boy who grew up around design, I spent the weekends going to flea markets and yard sales and estate sales and things like that with my mom. And how I am the person that I am today, I can trace directly back to those feelings because it's the same rush.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it's the same rush. The acorn within the oak.

[Nate Berkus]

It is the acorn within the oak.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. This is the thing that touched me so much in this book that actually, you know, caused me to well up. You write. When I was a freshman in college, I came out to my family and friends. My stepfather was actually the one who first brought the topic up with me at the start of the summer. It turned out he had found a letter from a guy I was dating at the time. But he didn't mention what he'd read until late August. As he was driving me to the airport for the flight back to Chicago, he told me he knew I was gay, but he was not going to tell me. That was up to me. Can you tell the rest of that story so I don't read it and start bawling? Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

So the beautiful thing, this is a good man, my stepfather, Dr. Marshall golden, he wanted me to know he understood instinctually that I would be afraid that no one would love me if I came out and that I would be cast out by my family. So though he had discovered that I was gay in the beginning of the summer. He waited three months to tell me that he had made that discovery. And, and the reason is that he wanted to show me, not tell me that his behavior to me hadn't changed. He said, I wanted you to know that when you did something that annoyed me this summer, I yelled at you. And when you did something great this summer, I praised you. But I knew this whole time. So there's your proof. I don't feel any differently about you now than I did before I found this out about you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think that's just such a powerful lesson for anybody who is in a situation where you suspect your child is gay or your child has told you they're gay or whatever. In terms of handling it, that is taking the spiritual philosophy and putting it into spiritual practice.

[Nate Berkus]

It really is. I had to still myself because first he was telling me that he knew. So, you know, there was a lot of noise in that conversation for me because there was a lot of terror, you know? You know, you know, at first you're.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thinking you, you read my letter. You read the letter.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah, that was all happening. But then when I was able to get still and really hear what he was saying, I believed him because he showed me. And that was really a huge turning.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Point for me to say. I knew. But you see, I haven't treated you any differently. Exactly, yes. Did you think your mother maybe knew?

[Nate Berkus]

No, I didn't think my mother knew. I was very lucky to have a family that was supportive of me. My mother said to me, I love you, but I need time to deal with this and process this, which is the most I can ask for for any other young person coming out.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

So there's something very important that you that you said that I think, you know, over the years I've understood. Particularly you know, on the Oprah show for years we used to do Coming Out Day because there was a national Coming Out Day. You say when you tell your beloveds that you are gay or that whatever situation is going on, that you need to give them the space to accept that information and to grieve who they thought you were or to grieve their.

[Nate Berkus]

Vision of what they expected they wanted for your life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, because your mother then has to grieve. Oh, am I gonna have grandchildren?

[Nate Berkus]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

All that stuff Deal with whatever you need to deal with. And your child, I believe, should respect that. Give them the space to mourn, to grieve, the life they thought you were gonna have.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The dream that I had for you, Absolutely.

[Nate Berkus]

Give them the time to let go of that dream, but make it safe for them in the process. And coming out for me was, you know, what happens is when you're a kid and you know that you're gay, you develop a skill set that makes you dishonest. You. If you think about that, when you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Know that you're gay, you're trying to hide it. Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

You have to lie. You feel that you have to lie so that you're not cast out, so that your parents don't cast you out. And the things that you learn to do socially with friends, on the school bus, in class, in school, at recess, with your family, how you have to pretend that you like a girl or that you're dating someone. I was eight years old, nine years old, when I became conscious of the fact that I was gay. And I had to develop a whole skill set around hiding that. And it's taken me almost all of my adult life to rid myself of those, because I got pretty good at it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really?

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's so interesting. I never thought of it that way before. What's also fascinating is that your mother accepted it. Your stepfather said, you see, I'm not treating you any differently. Your father, from what I've read, had the hardest time.

[Nate Berkus]

He did?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Nate Berkus]

He, unlike my mom, didn't have any gay people around him. He really didn't understand the lifestyle. And the most important thing that happened between my father and I when I came out was that he, for years, chose to believe it was a choice that I was making. And I remember I said to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

At one point, I don't understand why you're doing this.

[Nate Berkus]

Exactly. Why would you choose this? You could be with any woman. You can have such an amazing life. And I remember after several years of not being close to him, always being connected for holidays and things like that, but never really having a conversation with him. After I came out, he was in Chicago visiting me, and I took him to the airport.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is a great spiritual moment. I thought it was.

[Nate Berkus]

It was an enormous moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I thought that this was a. This was one of those moments that had you not had the courage to speak up and say this? And so many people, they don't say it, and they spend the rest of their lives being upset with the other person or whatever. But I thought what you Said. And the way you say it. Go ahead. Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

So we. His flight was delayed. We went across the street to the hotel bar, and we sat down and each ordered a drink. And I asked him how he was, and he said he was fine. And then he asked me how I was, because he and my stepmother were worried that they would get a call someday, that I had done something to myself, and I had started my design firm. I was living with my boyfriend in Chicago.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How old were you?

[Nate Berkus]

I was 24.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Nate Berkus]

And I thought, wait, what does he mean? And when it occurred to me that he thought that he would get a phone call, that I had killed myself, because it's a very empty, lonely life, and how could we possibly attain any happiness? I had a moment where I thought to myself, either I'm gonna stand up and walk away from how little this man knows me, or I'm gonna dive in and really make my case for him to know me forever.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This was the big spiritual moment.

[Nate Berkus]

This was a moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Did you know that it was a big spiritual moment?

[Nate Berkus]

I felt it. I felt it. I felt it. I felt everything that I had ever been through in my life. Kind of rushed to me in that moment to give me the voice that I needed to say to him, dad, do you trust me? Do you respect me?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

I'm your oldest son. Do you respect me in business? Do you see the decisions that I've made? Do you see how I was listening at the dinner table growing up? Do you see that I have chosen to have some of your qualities and discarded other ones? Do you respect me? And he said, yes. And I said, do you think I'm smart? And he said, yes. And I said, dad, why would I choose to make my life more difficult? Why would anyone choose to make their life more difficult? The truth of the matter is, is that being gay is the way that I was born. I believe this to the core of my being. I would never choose something to make my life complicated. I said, dad, we're never gonna have a relationship, a real relationship, unless you believe me. And I know that you believe me and act accordingly. I said, dad, do you think I would choose to have this hair? Do you think that I would choose to be five, nine? I would have been six one. Like, it's the exact same thing as my being gay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then he said he never thought of it that way before.

[Nate Berkus]

He did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He did, which is actually my favorite moment in life, when you think of something in a way. Wow. That's a big aha.

[Nate Berkus]

And he said, nate, the importance you're placing on this issue is here. And the importance I place on this issue is here. I do love you. I do respect you. I do admire you. If you say that you were born this way and you didn't make a choice, then we're good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that is the difference between moving forward in a relationship with your father, a real relationship.

[Nate Berkus]

That was the moment. That was really the moment. Because then I knew that if I had his base level of respect, that I can move forward.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. You know what I got from that story when I read it the first time? And even now, a bigger aha for me is that the thing? If you're not willing to stand up for who you are and have people respect you for who you are, then all the other things that supposedly matter mean nothing. Because that is the thing that really matters.

[Nate Berkus]

Because no one else is going to do it for you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You. Fresh out of college, Nate Burkus got his first big break working for Leslie Hyndman, the influential owner of a Chicago based auction house. She saw something special in him, a spark, even though he says he was the world's worst personal assistant. Leslie's belief in Nate was a significant milestone in the young designer's career.

[Nate Berkus]

Strong women have always been behind me in some way. I can trace it back, back from my grandmother to my mother, to my French teacher in high school, Cheryl Storm. Yep. To Leslie to you, obviously. But there's always been that role. There's always been that role for me, like angels guiding me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, one of the things that struck me you talked about, and we all have teachers that really mattered in our lives and influenced us. For me, Everybody knows it's Mrs. Duncan. And for you, that moment when you walked into class and your French teacher, there was something about her, Cheryl Storm.

[Nate Berkus]

Just looked different to me. Mrs. Storm was like always trying with something, a scarf sort of floating on her shoulder or a hat at an angle. And she really cared so much about us. And she said to me, I don't want you to just speak French. I want your personality to come through in another language. And when your personality comes through, that's how you know that you speak.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that's a good teacher. That's such a good teacher.

[Nate Berkus]

It's a great teacher.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. And you say that she wrote you a letter. That's one of the great treasures of your life. It's one of the best things you've ever written.

[Nate Berkus]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you know that words are my treasure? I treasure words. I love words. And it's the best gift anybody can give me is a well written, thoughtful note. So what did she say in that letter to you?

[Nate Berkus]

She just wrote to me that she had always sensed something special in me and that she always felt that I would go on to do great things, whatever those things might have been, and that we all define greatness in different ways. But for her, she knew that I would have a life that was filled with joy because I was kind. And that makes me well up. Yes, I would say well up because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think that you know why you're welling up. Because kindness matters to you.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah, it does.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

That's why matters are big. A huge, huge amount to me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

One of the things that you say that struck me. You talked about seeing life in all of its various textures and layers and light, and you said that you experienced that when you were in Paris. And the truth of the matter is, I experience it in California a lot. But what I'm learning to do is to experience it in the everyday when I'm learning to do it no matter where I am, if I'm driving down Michigan Avenue, if I'm coming down Randolph, to be able to see the textures and layers in a way that I can appreciate beauty. Is that what you're always doing as a designer?

[Nate Berkus]

I think so. I let things find me. I let moments find me. I let objects find me. I let beauty find me in any of its forms. And that could be walking along a flea market and finding something on a table that everyone else has overlooked. But for me, there's beauty inherent in the actual object.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I think what's also amazing that comes out of this book is when you were in your twenties, you were dating somebody who could design their own life, and you were at the auction house where your life only started at the end of Friday.

[Nate Berkus]

Your weekends could only start Friday, 6pm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Friday, 6pm and you're dating somebody who was.

[Nate Berkus]

Who was working, who had their own company, who had the freedom to leave on a Thursday night and take a drive to Michigan or do whatever they wanted to do. And that felt like it needed to be something that I had as well. That freedom to actually create and design my own world and my own timeline was something that I knew that was the single thing that propelled me to start my design firm.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Just the thought that you can stop and start to create for yourself what it is you want.

[Nate Berkus]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a big leap.

[Nate Berkus]

It was powerful and it was scary to start my own company at 23 years old. I had to also know myself, I guess, as well As I thought I could at that stage of my life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because what do you know at 23?

[Nate Berkus]

You know nothing. You know nothing youg know a whole lot of nothing. But, you know, it's, it's, it's. It's funny for me because I'm 41 years old and everyone else seems to think my life has been so accelerated. And I look back on it and it didn't move that fast. You know, I feel like I've always been the type of person that likes to have space around the decisions that I make. And that's why my talk show didn't work for me. I didn't have an idea of. I felt too rushed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can we talk about the show?

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah, let's talk about the show.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can we be as honest as we need to be about it? Listen, I have adored you from the first time you were on this show. And we all felt that, you know, you had it. And I thought. I remember. I remember having a conversation with you when you were leaning towards having your own show. Did I not have you in my office?

[Nate Berkus]

Have you sit down. Yeah. I'm waiting to hear what you say, though. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ok. I don't remember exactly what I said, but what I was feeling was that you wanted to do this thing. I was trying to discourage you from going into five days a week. But I also knew that you were in that space, in that moment where you really wanted it and you felt that you should. And I felt that we had been behind you all this time. And so let's see what happens.

[Nate Berkus]

I'm ambitious.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Nate Berkus]

And I felt that that was an opportunity of a lifetime.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

And everyone around me told me it was an opportunity of a lifetime. And the truth is, it was, it was. It was an enormous opportunity of a.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Lifetime, but an almost impossible in the way you wanted to do it every day.

[Nate Berkus]

Absolutely. And, you know, the truth was, for me is that I am a person that likes to have space around the decisions that I make, even for the makeovers. When I was doing the makeovers on the Oprah Winfrey show, they were spaced out about every six weeks apart. So if something didn't come in right, I had the time to make that change with the show every day. I lost sight of what was important and what mattered to me because I just was on that schedule every single day. So the show for me was just. It was not the right format for me. It wasn't the right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Did you feel overwhelmed?

[Nate Berkus]

I felt overwhelmed. I felt exhausted. I gained 20 pounds. I felt unhealthy. I felt like there was no way I could do a good job. And then I realized that very quickly that I should have done a show that was one day a week at most.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. That's what I always thought.

[Nate Berkus]

It would have been amazing for me to do that, and maybe I will. But that, for me was like that moment where I thought, I got some success on this channel. We got some real estate.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I got some real estate for you. I know a place you could go.

[Nate Berkus]

Excellent.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Yeah. So you realize that when, though, how hard were you?

[Nate Berkus]

Oh, well, probably, to be perfect. Perfectly honest, I realized that the second week we were in development of the show. And so, basically, for two years, I was unrecognizable to myself. And I think that came through on camera because everyone is very smart, and when they see somebody doing something that they're not really meant to be doing or trying to sort of fake it until you make it that. Who wants to watch that? I don't even want to watch that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if you cannot. First of all, what I've learned, and you know this, too, and for everybody who's watching us around the world, if you cannot be authentic, if you cannot be true to yourself, if I cannot make the decision based upon what feels right to me, and now I'm operating on what everybody else is saying. I don't know how to be in that.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah. I don't know how to function. I mean, conversely, I met wonderful people. Some of my producers will be friends of mine for life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

It's like summer camp.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're in the church camp. Cause it's not about blaming people.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah, not at all. And I'm grateful that I went through it, because I know that's not what I want.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so what did it teach you?

[Nate Berkus]

It taught me that I really do need to stop and take the time before I make a major decision like that. And then I have to really decide for myself why I'm doing something.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was part of it ego?

[Nate Berkus]

Totally. Oh, absolutely. Ego, money, of course, all of that was ruled in.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

But everything ends for a reason. And I really also felt that surprising to me to get deep for a moment, was that a lot happened when that show ended. My relationship of three years ended. Personally, I needed to get back in shape. I needed to kind of get control of myself again in many different ways. And I went into therapy for the first time since the tsunami. And it was interesting because my friends, my close friends, said to me, you're so breezy about this show ending and the stuff in the news and you're fine and you knew it wasn't right and you're ready to move on and you, you know, you don't even care that you don't know what moving on means. You're just ready to be done and you're so breezy about it. And I was, I was really, I was concerned for my staff, I was concerned for some of my friends that worked on the show. But for me, I thought, I'm gonna be fine. I felt that I would be fine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was there a part of you that was relieved?

[Nate Berkus]

Enormously, yeah. And I went into therapy and I started to work on a lot of issues that I had never really addressed before my childhood, why I make certain decisions, why it was important for me to be on tv, why I wanted this so badly, and where I was.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

What's significant about it to me is that your story, my story, everybody's story of their life has to be a part of the ultimate design in their life. I mean, all of that is what's coming forth in all of the things that you surround yourself with.

[Nate Berkus]

That is why when I walk into an interior that somebody's hired a decorator or they've brought, they've done based on what they saw on TV or in a magazine or whatever it is. It doesn't matter really to me ever how much money someone spent. But when I walk into a space and it doesn't reflect the people that live there, it's not a good job.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

And I've always thought a home has to reflect the people that live there tell the stories of who they are. And it's not instant, it should be assembled and layered over time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that is so true. That's what I'm now doing.

[Nate Berkus]

It is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's exactly what Rose Tarlow said when she came into my house. This house doesn't beautiful, nice art, really nice. But didn't have anything to do with you.

[Nate Berkus]

It's true.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. My life was going at I don't know how many miles per hour doing five shows a week for 25 years. I wasn't really Living in any spaces.

[Nate Berkus]

You weren't living anywhere.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I wasn't. That is the truth.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, no. That makes me want to cry right now.

[Nate Berkus]

But you really weren't, and I knew you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I haven't lived anywhere for the past 25 years. I haven't lived. I look at my apartment in Chicago now, and that was a sleep space.

[Nate Berkus]

Yep. I think that's why when you were in Montecito, you spent so much time outside. Yes. I think that's why the trees mattered so much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why my favorite space is under the tree.

[Nate Berkus]

Well, because it wasn't designed. Someone else God designed that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

So, I mean, it was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I just had an aha. That was really good.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

So when our homes really do reflect who we are and who we aspire to be, that's when you have a space that everyone is drawn to. And what's interesting about that is that the best design projects that have ever been shown or seen or photographed are always the ones where the people broke the rules. They weren't listening to what anyone else had to say.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is so true. I just had another big aha. But you know what I realized, too? We spend a lot of time on this show. This is my favorite show, Super Soul Sunday, on the whole network. Because it's about getting people to think about the things that really matter. And this book is about the inner and the outer expression and how they're.

[Nate Berkus]

Connected and how people can connect them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So how do we. How do you then define people's love of material possessions?

[Nate Berkus]

So we're taught that you're not supposed to care about things. You're not supposed to admit it. Because we're supposed to care about people. And we're supposed first, and I believe in that. But I think we have to care about things because they do represent us and they do hold memories. So what people need to do is stop and take a beat before they acquire. And this will actually solve a lot of issues that people have, I think. Stop and take a beat before you acquire. Before you buy that sofa or that table or that lamp or that mirror. Or fill your bookshelves with books you've not read or whatever it is. Before you do it, you need to stop and ask yourself the question, is this really serving me in my home? Is this telling the story of who I am? Does this represent what matters to me? And if it doesn't, you can like something just cause it's pretty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Berkus]

However, if it's because you saw it on the COVID of a magazine, or you saw it on a TV makeover show and somebody told you, this is the newest, hottest thing, then the answer is no. And you need to take the space, you need to make authentic decisions for what you allow into your home.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In 2004, Nate Burkas lost his partner Fernando Bingochea during the Indian Ocean tsunami in Sri Lanka. After Nate's exhaustive and unsuccessful search for Fernando, he returned home and was comforted by family and friends and one of Fernando's greatest gifts, two pieces of art he had given Nate just before their trip. Talking about other things that matter, you had asked Fernando for pictures that he had done, and he was offended that you'd asked.

[Nate Berkus]

Yeah. He had created this series of 10 photographs that were woven by hand. He wove them by hand. They're 5ft by 6ft tall, and they're hand woven, cut into millimeter wide strips that he hand wove with a tweezer. And he asked me what I wanted for Christmas that year. And I said, what I want is one of your woven photographs. They were being represented at a gallery in New York. And he went insane. He started yelling at me, and how could I ask for that? And they were selling for so much money, and he would never have sold them if he didn't need to. And he wishes he would never have to sell any, but he's not rich. And I had a lot of nerve, and I'm a terrible person and this and that and going on and on and on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you want for Christmas? Well, I'd like a couple of those photographs.

[Expedia Announcer]

How dare I?

[Nate Berkus]

How dare you ask me for that? So I said, you know what? Then I want nothing. If you want to ask me, I'll tell you the truth. And that's the truth. What do you think? I want a sweater. I don't want a sweater. I want that. So if you have all these 10,000 reasons why I shouldn't have that, then keep them and that's fine. Sell them, do whatever you need to do, and I'll be just fine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Nate Berkus]

So we were leaving for that trip, the trip he never came home from. And I walked into the apartment and he had. Had delivered both, not just one of the woven trees, but two. And he had hung them in the entryway of my apartment and taken down the paintings that were there and put them where he wanted them to go. And I, of course, didn't think about that after the tsunami. But when I came home, it was the first thing that I noticed. And it represented everything, really. It represented everything. It represented what he was willing that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He would do that, that he would.

[Nate Berkus]

Do it, that he would do it in that way, that he couldn't be coerced into doing it, but in his heart he wanted to do it anyway. And that's really who he was. So they're the most meaningful things to me that I have. They represent his soul, they represent his heart, they represent his essence as a person. And the fact that he wanted me to have them. Not one which I had asked for, but both, was just a level of generosity that I don't think comes around a lot.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And so every time you see that, you were reminded all of that conscious and subconscious energy goes into every time you look at one of those.

[Nate Berkus]

Absolutely. And he touched them, pieces of it. He touched each one and he. I walked past it. And of course, sometimes it's subconscious, sometimes it's very conscious. But I think to myself, I was loved that way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, that's great. That is great. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Nate Berkus]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Always tell you to customize your car.

[Nate Berkus]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

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[Expedia Announcer]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

We save.

[Nate Berkus]

That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you need@liberty mutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates excludes Massachusetts. Honey, do not make plans Saturday, September 13th. Okay?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why?

[Zepbound Medication Announcer]

What's happening?

[Nate Berkus]

The Walmart Wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.

[Zepbound Medication Announcer]

All that at Walmart.

[Nate Berkus]

We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart? Check the calendar. Saturday, September 13th Walmart wellness event. You knew. I knew.

[Expedia Announcer]

Check in on your health at the same place you already shop. Visit Walmart Saturday, September 13th for our semi annual wellness event Flu shot. Subject to availability and applicable state law. Age restrictions apply. Free samples while supplies last year.