Super Soul Special: Nate Berkus: Surviving the Storm

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Nate Berkus — Surviving the Storm

Podcast: Oprah's Super Soul
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Nate Berkus
Episode: Surviving the Storm
Date: February 19, 2025

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Overview

In this profoundly moving episode, Oprah sits down with acclaimed interior designer Nate Berkus to discuss personal transformation after deep loss. The conversation centers around the traumatic experience of surviving the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami, which took the life of Nate’s partner, Fernando Bengoechea. Together, Oprah and Nate explore themes of survival, grief, love, resilience, spiritual awakening, and the ongoing journey of embracing life after unimaginable tragedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Survivorship and the Aftermath of Trauma

• Redefining Identity:
  • Oprah reads from Nate’s book, The Things that Matter:

    “Since December 26, 2004, I've never defined myself by anything other than my ability to survive. ... The only question is can I survive or can't I? That's what matters.” (01:00-02:15)

  • Nate confirms the tsunami is “always” with him and has shifted his outlook, particularly on relationships and fear (02:29).
  • The event left lasting changes to Nate's sense of self; he says,

    “I don’t recognize the person I was before the tsunami” and emphasizes a newfound self-trust and self-liking (03:31-03:56).

2. Love, Loss, & Remembering Fernando Bengoechea

• Oprah highlights Fernando's background and their deep relationship.

  • Nate reflects on dedicating both his books to Fernando and wonders how life might have been if Fernando survived (04:29–04:51).
  • On Fernando’s impact, Nate shares,

    “He showed me a bigger life than I ever dreamed of for myself.” (04:51–05:25)

  • Writing about their love in a book about design was cathartic but extremely challenging (05:25–06:13).

• How Fernando Saw Nate:

  • Oprah asks about Fernando’s ability to see Nate “for how I wanted to be seen.” Nate describes the energy and connection they felt,

    “He captured my humor and my self... There was an energy between us that was really, really powerful.” (06:43–07:38)

• Oprah connects this to a universal need to be truly seen, referencing Toni Morrison’s wisdom:

  “Do your eyes light up? ...Everybody wants to know: do I matter?... We just want you to see us, not just for who we are, but” (07:41–08:12).

3. Their Final Trip & the Tsunami

• Fernando encourages Nate to take a three-week, life-changing trip in Southeast Asia (09:18–10:17).
• Their deep bond and generosity shines through as they assemble backpacks for local Sri Lankan children the night before the tsunami (11:52–12:09).
• The Onset of Disaster:
  • Nate recalls his first impression of the tsunami:

    “The first thing the tsunami took were those backpacks.” (12:16–12:36)

  • The initial moments focused solely on survival,

    “Your brain just calculates... Let me get the next breath.” (12:36-13:28)

4. The Ordeal: Surviving and Saying Goodbye

• Oprah revisits how, in the chaos, a floating mattress miraculously saves Nate and Fernando from a deadly telephone pole (16:00–17:21).

• Nate recounts their fleeting safety and last conversation,

  “We’re together and we’re able to have a conversation...I said, ‘What was that?’ ...[Fernando]: ‘I don’t know, but it’s over now.’” (17:28–18:10)

• The water recedes with force, separating them forever.

  “I felt him hang on to the waistband of my underwear, and then I felt him be torn away. And that was the last that I saw him.” (18:48–19:14)

• Symbolic Keepsake:

  • Nate still wears a bracelet Fernando gave him, likening it to a wedding ring (19:18–20:23).
  • Fernando’s sense of destiny ("couldn’t see himself past 40") is discussed with bittersweet resonance (20:22–21:12).

5. Grieving, Acceptance & Spiritual Lessons

• Witnessing Loss Firsthand:

  “I needed to see what that tsunami really was in order to truly accept that he was gone. I would never have accepted it if I heard about it on the phone...” (21:41–23:07)

  • This direct experience, while horrific, becomes a strange gift, both for Nate and for Fernando’s family (23:36–23:40).

• Growing Compassion:

  • The trauma opened Nate to the suffering of others,

    “For the first time, I started thinking, what has that woman behind me gone through? ... I felt raw, and I felt really open to what it felt really insignificant. And I felt afraid.” (23:40–24:39)

  • Oprah’s wisdom, “When the soul gets what it came to get, it goes,” provided solace and a framework for meaning (24:41–25:39).

• Turning Up the Volume on Life:

  • Oprah:

    “All death is a reminder to turn up the volume on your life.” (28:15–28:28)

  • Nate expresses the vital choice he faced after the loss,

    “I could mourn his death ... or I could choose to honor how loudly he lived his life.” (28:40–29:04)

  • If you don’t “walk through that door,” “there really would have been two tragedies.” (29:05)

6. Building a “New Normal”

• On Holding On vs. Moving Forward:

  • Nate reflects on mementos,

    “They’re there because they give me joy. They don’t make me sad.” (31:23–31:49)

  • Oprah distills a core spiritual lesson,

    “All of your suffering comes from ... wanting the moment, the time, to be something that it can’t be.” (32:38–33:08)

• Current Life & Values:

  • Nate’s new normal is filled with work, everyday joys, meaningful relationships, and living with full awareness of life's impermanence (33:23–34:14).
  • The things that matter most:

    “People, Number one. Truly, number one... Animals matter. Dogs matter.” (34:19–34:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Survival:

  “I don’t recognize the person I was before the tsunami.”
  — Nate Berkus, (03:31)

• On Being Seen:

  “He saw me for who I wanted—for how I wanted to be seen.”
  — Nate Berkus, (06:43)

• On Love:

  “That’s what love feels like.”
  — Oprah Winfrey, (08:36)

• On Letting Go:

  “There’s a peacefulness that comes over when you found the right person for you.”
  — Nate Berkus, (09:00)

• On Tragedy:

  “The fact that I can function after witnessing that is a testament to the love and the support that I had when I got back. Period. The end.”
  — Nate Berkus, (18:10)

• On Moving Forward:

  “I could choose to honor how loudly he lived his life... Otherwise there really would have been two tragedies.”
  — Nate Berkus, (28:40–29:04)

• On Life After Loss:

  “When you are resisting the reality of what is, that is where all your suffering comes from.”
  — Oprah Winfrey, (32:38)

• On Advice:

  “When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.”
  — Maya Angelou, cited by Oprah & Nate, (37:19–37:23)

• On Secret Strength:

  “My ability to survive and my perspective. ... When the worst has already happened and you’re not afraid to speak your truth, you get a lot done.”
  — Nate Berkus, (37:29–37:51)

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Important Timestamps

• Survival and Identity: 01:00–03:31
• Connecting with Fernando: 04:07–08:14
• The Trip and Tsunami Onset: 09:18–13:28
• Detailed Recount of Tsunami Experience and Last Moments with Fernando: 16:00–19:14
• Coping, Grieving, and Spiritual Insights: 21:41–29:40
• Advice and Takeaways: 34:12–37:51

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Final Takeaways

This episode is a testament to the transformative power of grief, the gift of being truly seen and loved, and the necessity of embracing life after profound loss. Oprah and Nate’s conversation reminds listeners that honoring those we've lost means living more fully, discovering strength and compassion within ourselves, and courageously forging a “new normal.” In Nate's words:

“What matters for me is time and being happy. And that's it.” (34:56)

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Recommended for anyone seeking inspiration through adversity or searching for gentle guidance through love and loss.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Com I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Last time, Nate Burkus and I began a conversation we'd never had before, really. We heard about some of the spiritual milestones of his life so far, the roots of his lifelong passion for design, his journey of coming out to his family, and we got a glimpse of who Nate calls the love of his life. Today, we continue our heart to heart with a devastating event that changed everything for Nate. The massive 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami. You write and the Things that Matter. Good title. May I say thank you. You write that since December 26, 2004, I've never defined myself by anything other than my ability to survive. I don't think about whether I'm successful or I'm not successful, famous or not famous, busy or bored. To me, the ultimate question, the only question is can I survive or can't I? That's what matters. Really.

[Nate Burkus]

That's it? That's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Does the tsunami, when you go through a traumatic event experience like that, is it always with you in some way?

[Nate Burkus]

Always. Always in some way. Even now I'm back in love, personally, really in love. And I see myself behaving in a way with my new boyfriend that is fear based that something will happen to him or worse. How I sense, I think to myself how he would be should something happen to me. And those kinds of thoughts are not. They can be healthy, they can motivate you to be. They can also present, and they can trap you. And so I have to be conscious of that because that's just in my consciousness now. And I have to be aware. It takes a heightened level of awareness in everything.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I would have to say you went through a tsunami.

[Nate Burkus]

I know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Not just a flood or hurricane, but a tsunami. Yeah. And that is physical, but it's also metaphysical. It's spiritual, it's emotional. It's all of that.

[Nate Burkus]

It really was. I don't recognize myself. I thought I knew myself well when I was growing up. I always thought that I knew myself. And I don't. I really don't recognize the person that I was before the tsunami. And everything that I've learned from that experience, really, everything I wouldn't trade. I really trust myself. And like myself, I. After that, I do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

And I know that I can survive. And I. You know, I miss parts of me will miss Fernando and parts of me honor Fernando still by living so fully.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Born in Argentina, Fernando Bangocea was an internationally acclaimed photographer. His work appeared in major magazines, including O. He traveled the world on assignment, but met Nate for the first time on a photo shoot for O at home magazine. That was in 2003. You dedicate the book to F. I do.

[Nate Burkus]

The first book and this book both to him. You know, I think about all the time. Where would we be had he survived? Would we still be together? Could he. Would he have agreed with the decisions that I've made since then in life? What would he think about who I am today? Because it's certainly different than who I was in 2004.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What I also. Aside from how beautifully and poignantly and movingly the story is told, I mean, I've heard you tell it. I looked in your eyes shortly after it happened. But the way you write about it here, I could feel him, his last feeling, you actually in that water. But you say that he helped you to see life differently in a more beautiful way. This is the quote I've been looking for. He showed me a bigger life than I ever dreamed of for myself. Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah. And he really did. Yeah. I have to say, this chapter in this book, this was the hardest thing for me to work on. And I didn't set out to write the story of Fernando and I or the tsunami in a design book.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

But what happened was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But this is more than a design book.

[Nate Burkus]

It is. And it became that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's a Design spiritual book.

[Nate Burkus]

It really is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

And what happened was when I started getting all the stories back from everybody else that's included in the book, and they were so forthcoming and so honest about who they've loved and what they've lost and their stories, I knew that I really had to dig in. And so I wasn't always prepared, emotionally, to dig into this story. The nine times I had to do to get it right and to get it to be what I needed it to say. But it was a process. It was a very cathartic process to even write it down.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I would like for you to read the Excerpt from page 27 on how you and Fernando met.

[Nate Burkus]

Okay. Fernando and I met in 2003 at a photo shoot for O at Home magazine. He had been hired to photograph the makeover process of a living room. I was brought in to redo. The day I met him, I could see through his photographs how he saw me. And I remember thinking, things don't get any better than this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

How did he see you?

[Nate Burkus]

He saw me for who I wanted, for how I wanted to be seen. And I felt that from the very first moments with him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What does that mean?

[Nate Burkus]

It meant that he captured not only what I looked like, but I felt like he captured my humor and my self. And he. I don't know how he did that. There was an energy that sort of came over the room and the whole shoot and the whole location between the two of us that was really, really powerful. And we both felt it, although we couldn't articulate it. And then I had the sort of the presence of mind to believe that that energy was just between him and I until we started dating. And I realized that that was his gift, that anyone that he put his lens in front of also felt that way and wanted to be seen that way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We wanted to be with him.

[Nate Burkus]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Around that energy, around it. Because this is the real truth and the real powerful spiritual lesson for all of us that Toni Morrison shared when she was on the show years ago. When, you know, she talked about your kids entering the room. Do your eyes light up?

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do your eyes light up? When I entered the room, she said, that's what everybody wants to know.

[Nate Burkus]

Everybody.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do I matter? Do I. Do my eyes light up? And also what every human being wants is what you just said. We just want you to see us, not just for who we are, but.

[Nate Burkus]

For the best that we can be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you sang that.

[Nate Burkus]

It really did. I knew that that was an enormous. The first time it had ever happened. And I Didn't really know what to do with that level of energy. It was really hard to receive at that moment. But I did and I took it in and I sort of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That feels like love, doesn't it?

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When somebody sees you that way.

[Nate Burkus]

It does. It is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what love feels like.

[Nate Burkus]

That is what love feels like.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Nate Burkus]

Aha. That's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I love how you say that. Fernando was audacious and complicated and spontaneous and sophisticated and charismatic and demanding and graceful and volatile and extravagant and occasionally impossible. Wow. That's relationship.

[Nate Burkus]

That is. And that's knowing somebody and really honoring them for being all of those things. You know, one of the. There's a peacefulness that comes over when you found the right person for you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Nate Burkus]

And you just know that whatever happens, that's the person that you're going to be with.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

And that's how I felt about Fernando.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Nate says Fernando broadened his world, convincing him to take a three week trip through Southeast Asia, something Nate had never done before.

[Nate Burkus]

I didn't know people that went on vacation for three weeks. I didn't even. That was totally the idea of being separate from your life for that long. Made no sense to me. A week?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

You know, and even then that was challenging. But he was adamant that we go. He was adamant that he plan it, and he was adamant that I give him the time he felt that that type of vacation deserved. And I said, but you're crazy. I have a million things going on. I'm designing products and I have work and I have my design firm and all this stuff. And he said, I don't care. Figure it out or we're not going. This trip requires at least three weeks. So that's what I need from you. And then I'll take care of everything else. I'll figure it out. And I said, okay. So the trip was Thailand and then Cambodia and then to Sri Lanka where we would tour a little bit the larger cities and then end at the beach.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Were you in your second week? First week.

[Nate Burkus]

Second week. End of the second week. And being there with him was magical because he was magical and we were magic together. And we knew it, which is another thing to have to be functioning on that level. And it was so incredible just how connected we were the whole time. And when we came.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I wish that for everybody.

[Nate Burkus]

I do too. Yeah, I do too. Yeah, it was.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because that is the thing that matters.

[Nate Burkus]

That's really where it all stems from. Yeah, it really is. So we went to Sri Lanka, and he had been there before 12 years prior as a photographer's assistant. He wanted me to see what he had seen. And like most places that you go back to, it's never what you remember. And I remember saying to him, relax, like, I'm here with you. I'd rather be here with you than doing anything in the world. I don't care that there's smog or that the traffic is noisy or that it takes forever to get or this hotel is in. Who cares? We're together. That's the only thing that matters. And from that moment on, he was much better. And then we went to the seashore, and we actually asked the mayor of the town, the small town, if he could tell us the names and the ages of the children for the 10 poorest families, because there was a small main street. And I thought, you know what? We have nothing to do. I always believe that you should leave a place better than you found it, no matter where you go. And we assembled backpacks for the kids. He gave us the name with the list.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So the night before the tsunami, this.

[Nate Burkus]

Is the night before the tsunami.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The two of you are putting together these handmade backpacks with school supplies.

[Nate Burkus]

School supplies. And we were trying to be really thoughtful. We bought fabric so that the kids could sew their own clothes, the parents could sew the clothes, and it would last for longer.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you were just doing this because you wanted to give something back?

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah. It was a beautiful place with beautiful people in many ways.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And it's Christmas.

[Nate Burkus]

And it's Christmas. And we thought, you know, we should leave this place better than how we found it. And that was my first memory of the tsunami hitting, was the sound first. And then laying in bed and seeing the backpacks, seeing the water come into our little shack and seeing the backpacks start to swirl all over the place. And that was the first thing that the tsunami took, were those backpacks.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when you're in the middle of it, your brain doesn't have time to calculate, where am I? What's going on? Your brain just calculates. Let me get the next breath.

[Nate Burkus]

Breathe.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, breathe.

[Nate Burkus]

Just breathe. And it's, you know, having been, I guess, almost dead and fighting to survive in that moment, that is really all you care about is. Is taking that next breath at any expense. Nothing flashed before me. I wasn't conscious of the fact that I was going to die. I wasn't thinking, oh, no, I am going to die. I was just thinking, I need air, and I don't have it. Breathe. Look for the light. Because it was 9:30 in the morning. Swim towards the light when you can, which you couldn't. It just popped you up when the force of the sea wanted you to. But if I could get to the light I thought I can breathe and that was all I could focus on.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I remember back in 2005 when you were on the show talking about this for the first time and when you see this tape of yourself, I mean you're kind of, you're still not really fully there. And what struck me at the time you were talking about being in the water and all the other things swirling by you and you know, huge objects. And I remember hearing about that pole, that telephone pole. And you're speeding toward the telephone pole and then all of a sudden a mattress floats in the water and just.

[Nate Burkus]

Floated in between Fernando and me. We were heading towards this telephone pole at probably 40 miles an hour was the speed of the water with the two of us in it. And I thought, we need to grab that pole, but it's going to kill us. What if we hit our heads on the pole? There were iron spikes coming out of it that people could climb up. The water level was probably 12ft at this point. And. And then I realized that there were electrical wires and I thought we'll be electrocuted. And I'm thinking all of this while he's next to me and we're going 40 miles an hour towards it. And I thought we're just gonna have to grab it whether the impact hurts us or not. We're just gonna have to grab it so that we can stop moving. And that twin size mattress just came in between us and it just went like this around the pole and we ran into the mattress instead of the pole. Instead of the pole.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't that.

[Nate Burkus]

How does that happen?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you know how that happens, right? Yeah. And then you held on.

[Nate Burkus]

We held on and I asked for an end. I remember asking him what was that meaning the whole tsunami? And he said, I don't know, did.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You hear each other?

[Nate Burkus]

Because up there, no, we were talking. Now we're on the mattress, now we're good Comparatively, I mean, we're not drowning. We can breathe, we're in the sun, everything's floating past us, but we're together and we're able to have a conversation. And I said, what was that? And he said, I don't know, but it's over now. And I said, but what was it? And he said, I don't know, maybe a tidal wave. I'm not sure, but are you okay? And I said, yes. And he said, are you okay? And I said, I am, but now I'm scared. Like, now that I can see what's going on, I'm really scared.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because you can see people screaming from the rooftops, everything.

[Nate Burkus]

And you could see the devastation and babies floating by. I mean, there's no getting that out of your head. The fact that I can function after witnessing that is a testament to the love and the support that I had when I got back. Period. The end. But we're looking around. We're noticing the devastation, we're noticing the death, we're noticing the injuries and the people floating in the water and the animals and everything. And he said, it's over, it's over. And then the water changed direction.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Nate Burkus]

And as fast as the water came in over land, it's as fast as the water drew out. So all of a sudden, we were ripped off the pole again and drowning again. And in that same experience that we just had survived a second time, and I felt him hang on to the waistband of my underwear, and then I felt him be torn away. And that was the last that I saw him.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The last that you felt him.

[Nate Burkus]

The felt him, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you still wear his bracelet today?

[Nate Burkus]

I do. This is from a tribe in the Amazon in Brazil, and it's hand woven in the jungle. And it's one thing so you don't take it on and off when you shower, you stretch it and put it on. And I've worn it because when I first met him, he asked me if I wanted one because he was wearing one. And I said, sure. And he said, I found this at a store in Rio. There's only one store in the world that sells these. But if you put it on, you can never take it off. So you have to promise me you'll never take it off.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Nate Burkus]

And I said, okay. And he said, really, though? I mean, I know you're like, style, and it may not be your style, and you have to wear it with a tuxedo and you have to wear it all the time, but you can never take it off. Do you promise And I said, I promise. So here it is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was that kind of like you all getting. It's like getting a ring.

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah. I mean, it was very early on, which is very typical of Fernando. We were dating probably three weeks before I asked about it on him. And then he said, do you want one?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Had he not always spoken of not living past 40?

[Nate Burkus]

He always did. He always did. I don't know. I mean, Fernando always said that he couldn't envision himself living past 40, that he just couldn't see himself aging. He couldn't see himself growing older. And he talked about the future. We talked about the future all the time. But he sort of, I guess, knew on some level he must have known. And he was vain, and he wouldn't have wanted to be seen, and he was never seen again. I know that he wouldn't have wanted to be seen. He wouldn't have wanted his body to be exhumed from the sea. He wouldn't have wanted a funeral. He wouldn't have wanted any of those things. And he didn't get them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

He just disappeared.

[Nate Burkus]

He just disappeared by one of the greatest natural disasters the world had ever known was the force that was took him out at 39 years old.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Spiritually. How did you come back and put the pieces together for yourself? I mean, that is obviously physical tsunami, but the devastation to your own psyche has got to be equally as enormous.

[Nate Burkus]

So a few things happened that made sense to me. One, that I was there to witness Fernando disappearing, because I felt that that gave me a lot of strength when I came home, because I have always been a very visual person, and I needed to see what that tsunami really was in order to accept, truly accept that he was gone. I would never have accepted it if I heard about it on the phone or saw it on the news or if he had been on location there and I had been in New York or Chicago or wherever. And somebody called, just like my family was called and said, Nate was in the tsunami. Had I not survived, I don't know how my family, the people closest to me, would have been able to envision the force of what took me away. And I was grateful that I was there, because the focus for me when I came home was on the loss of him, not what I had seen and what I had gone through. I was able to grieve for him, which was terrifying because I'd never, never lost a grandparent at that point. I had never had anyone close to me die. And here was the love of my life, who's disappeared but I was able to understand how he disappeared. And that somehow made it more manageable for me that I had borne witness, that I had gone through it myself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Which, as you're saying, that makes me. Me feel for all the people who.

[Nate Burkus]

Don'T know where they get the phone call.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You get the phone call, and they don't know how it happened or where it happened. Like in the cases of murder, a lost child gone forever.

[Nate Burkus]

Armed forces.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. Yes.

[Nate Burkus]

I mean, how many people missing with no one that witnessed their disappearance? I mean, how many families have gotten that phone call just like Fernando's mother did? And the rest of Fernando's family, in.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The end, became a comfort to the.

[Nate Burkus]

Witnessing was a gift.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Was a gift.

[Nate Burkus]

Yeah. The idea of having my eyes opened to what other people had gone through, what suffering really felt like, was also a gift, because it made me a better person. It made me a more compassionate person. I no longer could stand in line at the drug store and just ignore everyone around me. For the first time, I started thinking, what has that woman behind me gone through? What have they been through in their lives? Were not protected anymore. I felt raw, and I felt really open to what it felt really insignificant. And I felt afraid. Very, very afraid for myself would I ever become normal? And you came over. I remember about three days after I came home and I was in my bed, and I asked you why. I wanted you to tell me why. Yeah, I know. Sorry.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Let me answer.

[Nate Burkus]

So that was a comfortable moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Nate Burkus]

Well, you were Oprah. I was like, listen, my mother doesn't know, my father doesn't know. But, I mean, I remember saying, you know, why? Why did this happen? Why? And I remember how you answered it. And you said to me, when the soul gets what it came to get, it goes. Someone told me that once. You told. Somebody told you that once, and you gave that to me. And that made sense, because here was a person who never felt like he had a home, who had left Argentina to live in Brazil, who had traveled around the globe, who truly never had established his own family and life on his own terms. And all of a sudden, I was home to him. I represented home metaphysically, physically, everything. And he had gotten what he had come to get by being with me. I really believe that. And so it made sense to me that that's what his soul needed. And that was the final thing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But when you're in that moment and for everybody who's going through it or has been through it, it's hard to hear it, because you're just like, why.

[Nate Burkus]

I needed to hear it. I needed to hear anything. I mean, I remember I was reading everything about loss. I just started to look at life in a different way.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I would like to say this or ask this for you, because this is what I believe, that for me, all death is a reminder to turn up the volume on your life.

[Nate Burkus]

Right?

[Oprah Winfrey]

You bet. That's what all souls coming and coming into the world and leaving the world. Those who are born and those who are leaving are saying, better get with it.

[Nate Burkus]

Yep. Better turn up the volume.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Better turn up the volume. Better.

[Nate Burkus]

That's for me. What came to pass with his death. I knew that I had two choices. I could mourn his death and I could stay at home, and I could be sort of a recluse, and I could stay stuck in that grief, or I could choose to honor how loudly he lived his life.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right.

[Nate Burkus]

By doing everything that came my way, that felt like living. Because otherwise there really would have been two tragedies.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Nate Burkus]

That, to me, was worse than what then I'm not living my life. What's the point of surviving?

[Oprah Winfrey]

And because you had said that he showed you a bigger life than you'd ever dreamed of for yourself. Now it's about his passing, is about get on and live it.

[Nate Burkus]

Yep.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I showed you. I came here.

[Nate Burkus]

Do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I opened that door for you. Do it.

[Nate Burkus]

Walk through that door.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Walk through that door.

[Nate Burkus]

And it doesn't matter if I'm not by your side.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

Because I am. In some way, obviously, of course. But it. But I can't be there for you. But I've given you what you needed to know that you can do it. So go do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Go do it. And have you?

[Nate Burkus]

I did. I am.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you are.

[Nate Burkus]

I am.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know what's interesting about this, Nate? I think everybody thinks, particularly who's gone through a tragic experience and you survived and others don't. And over the years, I talked to so many people in plane crashes or car crashes and, like, why me? And people often say, you know, there must have been a reason. There must have been a reason. You know what my answer to that is? Every day is the reason, Right?

[Nate Burkus]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not like one big thing.

[Nate Burkus]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You were left to do, and that person is now snatched.

[Nate Burkus]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. It's every day.

[Nate Burkus]

It's all the little things, every little moment stitched together.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Turn up the volume.

[Nate Burkus]

Turn up the volume. It's every time you answer the phone and a friend needs you. It's every time you create something beautiful and someone gets joy out of it. It's every time you make coffee for somebody in the morning because they really want it. It's not. It is about every day, and there isn't anything noble about it. I just survived. No one else. A lot of people didn't. But what would have been a tragedy for me would have been to have been given the gift of survival and the skill set to understand, or at least come to some level of understanding about why this happened to me and just choose to waste that and to waste it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your home is still filled with mementos, right? And treasures from your life at Fernando. How does one strike a balance? Because I've obviously done shows with people who are still holding on. I remember that show I did with the woman who hadn't changed her daughter's room in 10 years.

[Nate Burkus]

You know, it happens all the time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You went through that where you didn't want to change anything until one day you woke up and said it was ridiculous.

[Nate Burkus]

I mean, for me, I think grieving is. People have to go through it at their own pace. I don't believe in shrines. I never have. I have objects and things that obviously remind me of Fernando, remind me of my grandparents, remind me of anyone who's passed on in my home. But they're there because they give me joy. They don't make me sad. And I think the distinction is that when you leave a space untouched in honor of somebody who's no longer here to enjoy it, then you're not honoring yourself and you're not moving forward in a way that's healthy for you. You're living still in the past. What you have to come to terms with, and this is why I think everybody needs their own timeline for this, is that you have to come to terms with that you are living a new normal. Your new normal has nothing to do with what it was when that person was alive.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think the most important thing that you said here, and I think I actually remember saying to you that your life is not going to be the same. You're going to have to create a new normal. And most people are trying to hold on when they have the things they're holding on to, wanting the life to.

[Nate Burkus]

Be what it was, what it was, never will be, never will be.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And one of the greatest spiritual lessons I've learned from everybody who's sat in this chair, whether it's Eckhart Tolle or Deepak Chopra or whoever, or me or.

[Nate Burkus]

You or you or Eckhart Tolle, Deepak.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Chopra, or Nate, is that. And you just said it. Is that when you are resisting the reality of what is that is where all of your suffering comes from. You're wanting the moment, the time, to be something that it can't be is what causes you the suffering.

[Nate Burkus]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And your ability to transcend and accept that that is gone. And now I must move on and create a new normal is the real great spiritual lesson, no matter what it is you're going through. So what is your new normal now?

[Nate Burkus]

My new normal is, you know, it's a very normal life. I have my work, which is very fulfilling to me. You know, the creativity is still kind of going through me, and I know that I'm doing what I should be doing right now. And it feels good. Feels good to be here talking about something I created. It feels good to be behind what I'm doing now a thousand percent. But it's also, you know, there's relationships that come in and out. There's friendships that have tension, tension among the relationships. In my family, just like anyone, there's just. And I think hopefully what I bring to it is the desire to resolve things, even in a way that allows everyone some joy and some happiness around me. Because I know for a fact that we don't know how long we have here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, you've lived it.

[Nate Burkus]

I've lived it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You've lived it. And what are the things that matter to you?

[Nate Burkus]

People, Number one. Truly, number one. I've never been more inspired than by someone's personality, ever. It's always a starting point for me with any project, with any friendship, with any great evening. That moment when you connect to somebody and you just adore how they present themselves and what they have to say, and people are really inspiring to me. And they matter. And animals matter. Dogs matter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Dogs matter.

[Nate Burkus]

Dogs matter. Never underestimate the dog people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That could be your next book. Dogs matter.

[Nate Burkus]

Dogs matter. And dogs matter. And I think being able to be a good boyfriend, a good son, to try and be a good friend, to try and maintain what sort of a standard of. Of joy and of happiness and of optimism and not to let my light dim. That matters to me a lot. And I think what matters for me is time and being happy and being happy. And that's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Finish the sentence. The world needs kindness. I believe in love. I am grateful for.

[Nate Burkus]

For having survived.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Having survived. Where do you feel most? At home or at peace?

[Nate Burkus]

In my home. I better be. It's what I stand for. But I really do. There's nothing that feels better to me than being at home.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In what room?

[Nate Burkus]

Usually the TV room, the family room? But I love waking up in my bed, too.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, yeah.

[Nate Burkus]

I love it. I love it, crave it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Would I say. Could you say that you are, as you are, comfortable and feel at home in every room in your house?

[Nate Burkus]

Oh, absolutely. Every space.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you consider yourself a spiritual person or a religious person?

[Nate Burkus]

Spiritual.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the difference?

[Nate Burkus]

I grew up in a very traditional Jewish culture and religion, but religion wasn't as important as the cultural things around it. And I think that, for me, I guess defining being more spiritual than religious means that I'm not tied to the religion that I was raised with. I can find my spirituality in anything, and I think I do. I find it in my work, and I find it in other people, and I find it in teachings from other religions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's your greatest fear?

[Nate Burkus]

My greatest fear used to be being alone, and I think my greatest fear now is. Would be losing the people that I love, which will happen. So it's sort of a funny thing to fear when you know it will happen.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? Best piece of advice.

[Nate Burkus]

Okay, so you need to settle something with me with this, because I quote you as saying this, but you quote somebody else. I don't know where this came from.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Nate Burkus]

When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Maya Angelou.

[Nate Burkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is your secret strength?

[Nate Burkus]

I think my secret strength is my ability to survive in my perspective. Because when you have the perspective that I have on life, you can really navigate it in a way that is effective when you're not. When the worst has already happened and you're not afraid to speak your truth. You get a lot done.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Nate Burkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This was great, Nate.

[Nate Burkus]

Fun.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is great.

[Nate Burkus]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

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