← Oprah's Super Soul
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
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- [01:02]
Oprah Winfrey
I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. So I'm so excited that today I'm doing a special conversation with two beautiful, innovative, powerful women who I had the privilege of co starring with in A Wrinkle in Time, Reese Witherspoon and Mindy Kalin.
- [01:43]
Reese Witherspoon
How are you? Hi Oprah. Thank you for having us.
- [01:46]
Oprah Winfrey
Oh, can you believe it? We get to sit and talk.
- [01:49]
Reese Witherspoon
No. It's so exciting. It's our favorite thing to do.
- [01:51]
Oprah Winfrey
It's our favorite thing to do.
- [01:52]
Mindy Kaling
Not in harnesses and wigs.
- [01:54]
Oprah Winfrey
Not in harnesses and wigs. This is going to be fun because I wish we had been recording. Can you imagine if we were recording a podcast in our trailer? All of those mornings would be very.
- [02:06]
Mindy Kaling
Bad for all of us during the.
- [02:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Many hours we spent in the makeup trailer.
- [02:09]
Mindy Kaling
Particularly for me.
- [02:10]
Oprah Winfrey
No, no, no. A lot of wisdom in that trailer.
- [02:12]
Reese Witherspoon
I think so too.
- [02:13]
Oprah Winfrey
Why do you think, though, that the spirit and energy of what's now coming to the big screen in A Wrinkle in Time, the essence of that book. Why do you think that has captured imaginations of children and now adults for decades?
- [02:32]
Reese Witherspoon
Why it's absolutely. Well, I mean, it's such a book about what is possible and hope and positivity and about good versus evil. And I think there have been many moments in time that it would be completely appropriate. But it seems so apropos right now to be talking about what do we cultivate in each other and how do we find our best selves and become warriors for the good in the world. Yeah.
- [02:58]
Mindy Kaling
I think the fact that the lead isn't very unconventional lead. A fatherless girl who's in search for her father. I think at the time the book came out, that was a very unusual choice for a lead of a children's book or a book for young adults.
- [03:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [03:12]
Mindy Kaling
And I think you can see yourself in that character. It's nice.
- [03:15]
Oprah Winfrey
What did it mean to you all to be a part of this? Didn't. Did it not feel. I will tell you, did it for me. It felt sort of like we were part of a trailblazing, pioneering kind of adventure. The fact that Ava was at the center of directing the first hundred billion dollar film by an African American woman. Did we not feel like we're trailblazers for sure.
- [03:40]
Reese Witherspoon
And having Storm Reid be this little girl in the middle of a big Disney movie, this big. I'd never. I mean, I've been in movies for a long time and I've never seen a little girl of color be in the center of a giant, giant movie. And I think about all the little girls out there going, oh, I can be in my own fantastic adventure.
- [04:01]
Oprah Winfrey
I mean, I think about how her life is about to change and she's.
- [04:05]
Reese Witherspoon
So deserving of it. She's such a sweet.
- [04:08]
Oprah Winfrey
So kind and grounded.
- [04:10]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah, grounded and hard working and. But you think I got. I got emotional every time I thought about the little girls who don't see themselves, just to your point, you know.
- [04:19]
Mindy Kaling
And just the way that, you know, Ava, to look at the things she had done before that 13th Selma, her other movies before that. But to think that she took on the science fiction, the science fiction book that was incredibly popular, you know, and had maintained its popularity, but decided to take that and then cast it in a very unconventional way and understood it.
- [04:42]
Oprah Winfrey
So much, we'd be like, where are we now? What planet are we on? And she's like, you're on Eekshell. You're in the.
- [04:48]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:48]
Mindy Kaling
And even I look at the cast and, you know, it's with Chris and Goo Goo and everyone. And I never seen a cast like that in a. In a movie, a science fiction movie, a Disney movie. And I think that that was. Felt very special. And when everyone heard about the cast. I'm sure you heard this too. Everyone was so excited. Yeah.
- [05:08]
Reese Witherspoon
My character, Mrs. Wetz, is sort of an innocent. She's the newbie in the group. Very deferential to both of you. And she's kind of almost borderline antagonistic towards the children, which is. I'm sort of the child annoyed by the children. I'm annoyed with the children.
- [05:25]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [05:26]
Mindy Kaling
And you are both wise, but not as mature. You have. There's a quality in your character. That's what makes your character so funny. Yeah, I think.
- [05:35]
Oprah Winfrey
But Mindy definitely had the toughest role because when you were having to just recite speak in quotations, you know, some of the quotations.
- [05:43]
Mindy Kaling
Ava did a pass on the script where she updated the quotations. They were more classically Western philosophers, and she updated it so it was. I was quoting Jay Z and Justin Bieber in addition to Rumi. And so that was. That was made the character more fun, but it was challenging.
- [05:59]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, I love being the wisest one.
- [06:01]
Mindy Kaling
Yes.
- [06:02]
Oprah Winfrey
One of the wisest women of the millennia.
- [06:05]
Reese Witherspoon
Yes. Your voice changes when you're the wisest woman on earth.
- [06:07]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes, it does. It becomes low gravity towers whenever I'm saying it. It's just like in the old days when I used to anchor the news. Suddenly the red light would come on and I'd go into my anchor world. So whenever I see Mrs. Witch. Oh, she must speak in lower tones because wise people never have to raise their voices.
- [06:26]
Mindy Kaling
People.
- [06:26]
Reese Witherspoon
I think people are gonna love it.
- [06:28]
Oprah Winfrey
I am hoping that people resonate with the message of light that it brings, because I think the line where we're all standing in on our. Where we're all harnessed, and she says the darkness is spreading so fast.
- [06:42]
Reese Witherspoon
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's powerful.
- [06:44]
Oprah Winfrey
That's only thing faster than light is darkness. I think we are actually in those times. And I think it's so interesting that Madeleine Linkel knew years ago that that was appropriate and that it also fits the age that we're living in now. But the message of the film is that every one of us has the power to be a carrier of the light.
- [07:04]
Mindy Kaling
For sure.
- [07:05]
Reese Witherspoon
My friend was just saying as we were shooting pictures, wow, look at those. Those are the new suits.
- [07:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Can you believe it?
- [07:13]
Reese Witherspoon
No. It's crazy.
- [07:14]
Mindy Kaling
I know.
- [07:15]
Reese Witherspoon
And it takes Ava to make us be these supernatural warriors that are. I mean, the costumes are incredible, the story, the messaging. I think it's gonna really surprise people.
- [07:30]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, in the book, as we know, and also in the film, we get the message that complacency leads people to abandon their independent way of thinking. So I want to know, do you feel like our culture. There's a part of our culture that's complacent right now?
- [07:48]
Reese Witherspoon
I think our culture is more alive and vibrant than it's ever been. And I think we're waking, sleeping ideas that have been dormant for a long time. And it's terrifying and thrilling and exciting. But I think social media has opened up a conversation that was not possible even 10 years ago. And I'm seeing this collective. I mean, just. This is my perspective. I'm seeing women talking about things that they never spoke about, and they're feeling powerful because they're actually getting heard.
- [08:19]
Mindy Kaling
I will say that complacency is one of the scariest words for me personally, because I've noticed in the past year or so, even on social media, people who were not necessarily speaking their minds about certain things, feeling the urge they had to. And as people who all have social media accounts, you worry. Being complacent, I think, is the thing that history looks back on the worst. And when you think, you know, I'm an. I'm an actress, I'm a writer, I don't necessarily want to get involved in politics every single day. And yet now I feel that complacency is. Now, if you are complacent, it's. It's one of the worst things you can say about a person, and that's very recent.
- [08:59]
Oprah Winfrey
It's like sitting around. It's like doing nothing.
- [09:00]
Mindy Kaling
Doing nothing, yes. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. That. That has been for my entire adult life. I've heard that, but I think in the past, you know, two years or so, I felt like it's resonated and it's a lot.
- [09:11]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. So we're living in an era where you believe complacency is dying and that people are actually called to and feel the need to speak up.
- [09:21]
Mindy Kaling
Mm.
- [09:22]
Oprah Winfrey
Now, it's interesting because in O magazine, every month this year, we're asking the big questions. And in particular this month, in honor of Wrinkle in Time, we're asking the question, what would you be a warrior for? What is the thing you're most willing to stand for?
- [09:42]
Reese Witherspoon
Well, for me, it's women's stories and trying to create opportunities for women to. To tell their stories, because I think we cannot expect change in our society and culture if we hear the same. We see the same movies by the same 20 directors over and over and over again. And for me, it's been a mission for the past five years. To create better parts for women, but also opportunities for women of color, women of different generations, to tell their stories in any capacity, whether they're taking photographs or. Or they're doing podcasts, things like that. Just shine a light on those people.
- [10:17]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. What is the thing you're most willing to stand for?
- [10:19]
Mindy Kaling
I think the plight of refugees now, in particular, like the Rohingya people, who have largely for the past five years, have been right on the edge of genocide. But now people are beginning to notice when hundreds and thousands of people are pushed out of their homeland and again on the brink of genocide. It just feels like every day, different part of our world. There's not a section of it where there is not some kind of active genocide happening. And right now, it's with the Rohingya people. So the refugee crisis is.
- [10:50]
Reese Witherspoon
It's the worst refugee crisis since World War II, isn't it ever?
- [10:53]
Mindy Kaling
And the fact that I felt that refugee used to not have the connotations five years ago of they are now considered, I believe, refugees. That term is used as untrustworthy, derogatory. And that never used to be the case, and that's disturbing to me.
- [11:12]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah.
- [11:12]
Mindy Kaling
You know, if you call someone a refugee now, it has a lot more of this.
- [11:17]
Reese Witherspoon
And look, we're all one environmental disaster, one terrifying world event. From being in the same position, and it's, to me, unconscionable how we treat people without compassion, because there but for the grace of God, go any of us.
- [11:35]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, it's interesting, Reese, I want to start with something you said recently that went viral. You proclaimed in a speech that for women, ambition is not a dirty word. And that actually felt like a call to arms for women, I think, in all walks of life. And it reminded me of a time I was being interviewed. I won't say by whom, was not Bar Walter, who said, well, my. You're quite ambitious, aren't you? And I remember having to defend. I never thought of myself as ambitious before, but having feeling like I needed to defend being ambitious because it was spoken to me as though it were a dirty word. Why do you think that you're saying that ambition is not a dirty word struck such a chord?
- [12:19]
Reese Witherspoon
Well, I was reading there was a Columbia scientific study at Columbia about characteristics in women that people found appealing and unappealing. And across the board, ambition was considered an unappealing aspect of femininity.
- [12:33]
Oprah Winfrey
Do you believe it?
- [12:34]
Reese Witherspoon
Even recently, there was a study at Harvard that said women would deny their ambition in order to seem more appealing to men. And I thought we need to start talking about and reframing this word ambition, because it isn't about being selfish. It's, it isn't about being self serving. It's actually about wanting to create more and do better for communities, schools, the world, the government and reframe it. That an ambitious woman is not a terrifying thing and it's not a repellent thing. And I don't know, I just thought I wanted to open up a conversation about it.
- [13:05]
Mindy Kaling
It's true. Ambitious, when applied to a woman has a, it means almost ruthless or something, or there's a lack of femininity or it's, it's a masculine term and if used on a man it's considered a great compliment. And on a woman, if someone called me ambitious, I would wonder if it almost feels a little bit like shade.
- [13:25]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes. Because it's like you're trying, you have all this drive. And then when somebody asked me, it was many years ago too, it was like, well, when's enough? You know, like, isn't it enough already? Kind of, kind of question. But I think you have liberated us from that because right after your speech about this, someone posted I just want Reese Witherspoon sitting on my shoulder whispering ambition, ambition into my ear for the rest of my life.
- [13:51]
Reese Witherspoon
I got you, I got you. Whoever you are, I'll be there. I'll do that.
- [13:55]
Mindy Kaling
What's true about that word is it's like effort. When you're a woman or anybody, you're supposed to be effortless all the time. Effortlessly beautiful is the best compliment.
- [14:04]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes.
- [14:04]
Mindy Kaling
And to show effort or to show that you want something or went after something is so everyone's always saying when I look, because, oh, I love it, it's so effortless. I'm like, what is wrong with effort? What is wrong with effort? Effortful. That's. I think it's fine to be effortful, but so particularly when you're on camera, it's considered to be not a great quality.
- [14:26]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah. When you've worked for two hours to.
- [14:28]
Mindy Kaling
Look that way, don't look that way.
- [14:29]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes. So yeah. Why do you think women are so conflicted by this idea of wanting more?
- [14:36]
Reese Witherspoon
Well, I think that, you know, this idea of putting women in a siloing them off, figuring out ways to keep them smaller or make them feel less or feel less accomplished, it's like, it's just systematic and we have to start talking about it in order to change the ideas that we are going to see in young women.
- [14:57]
Mindy Kaling
For sure.
- [14:58]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you've had that kind of drive both of you, your whole life. Have you noticed a shift. Shift in how people perceive your drive and ambition? Particularly after eight Emmys?
- [15:11]
Reese Witherspoon
I think now, being older, I had this epiphany at 40. I was like, you know how basketball players, like NBA players are always talking about how great they are? Why don't women talk about how great they are all the time? Like, you know, LeBron James isn't like, oh, no, not me. He's like, I'm LeBron James. And I thought, why don't we change that and be like. I just started thinking, because when you're.
- [15:32]
Oprah Winfrey
A woman and you do that, you're perceived as being too full of yourself.
- [15:35]
Reese Witherspoon
Well, forget it. I'm leading with my. I'm going to start wearing my Emmy like a necklace. That's what I've decided.
- [15:42]
Oprah Winfrey
Don't stab yourself, because those wings can hurt.
- [15:45]
Reese Witherspoon
No. I don't know. And why do we diminish our accomplishments? Why do we do it? We do it to each other. We do it in front of men. And I've started going into business rooms and going, yeah, I deserve that.
- [15:55]
Oprah Winfrey
First of all, tell me, first of all, what. I was looking at you on the side, actually. I could see a peek of you, like, right over my shoulder. When Laura Dern. Hers was the first one of the night.
- [16:08]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. When she went to the night when.
- [16:09]
Oprah Winfrey
We were talking about big little eyes and hers was the first one of the night, and you were. I thought that you were gonna rise up and float out. Levitate, levitate. I literally thought if you could. If a smile. If a smile could make you fly, you would have. You were like your hope. I thought you were gonna get up over the stage. What were you thinking and feeling?
- [16:35]
Reese Witherspoon
I've never wanted so much for someone else in my entire life to win.
- [16:40]
Oprah Winfrey
I could feel that.
- [16:42]
Reese Witherspoon
It makes me want to cry when I think about it right now.
- [16:44]
Oprah Winfrey
Yes, you were so. It was like you were. Were one. It's like she was moving, but you were moving with her.
- [16:49]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. She's my friend. I just. I know every part of her. I know every struggle she's had. I've had. I've known so many joys in her life, and there's no better feeling than watching this person that you love and.
- [17:01]
Oprah Winfrey
Just created a role for.
- [17:03]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. But she just ascended, and she made it even better. It was there. She made it even better, and she was fantastic. And she's.
- [17:10]
Mindy Kaling
You want to know?
- [17:10]
Reese Witherspoon
She's a beautiful, generous, lovely person. And just to see her have that moment of ascendancy and that moment in the light, it was just, it was too much. I just wanted to cry. Somebody made a meme out of it of me, like basically levitating. My smile is exploding out of my face.
- [17:27]
Oprah Winfrey
Out of your chair. And then it was award after award. Okay, so including outstanding limited series, lead actress, supporting actress, supporting actor, director, one after the other. So what were, what were you feeling now you've had a chance to actually step back from it.
- [17:46]
Reese Witherspoon
I have. Because it still feels completely surreal. Yeah, I think it just was completely unexpected. And I mean, the audience response was amazing to the material. We had no idea would be received that way. But at the top of the millions.
- [18:00]
Oprah Winfrey
And millions, like 8 million people watching every week.
- [18:03]
Reese Witherspoon
And then at the top of the Emmys, they said there were 450 scripted shows that year. And I thought. And we even got the opportunity to stand there. But I meant what I said. I thought it was an incredible year for women to see people like Susan Sarandon, Jessica Lange, like Elizabeth Moss, Handmaid's Tale, these stories that were putting women at the center, but also that women were the architects behind the scenes getting these stories out there, champion these stories. I think that was the, that was a great one of the great stories that came out of the Emmys this year. And it felt different than any award show I'd ever been to. I think some other award shows need to wake up, wake up for them.
- [18:41]
Oprah Winfrey
And did things change the next in the, in the weeks to follow? Did things change for you, your company?
- [18:48]
Mindy Kaling
Oh, my gosh.
- [18:48]
Oprah Winfrey
The way you were perceived, the way the work is perceived?
- [18:51]
Reese Witherspoon
I mean, I was, I was saying earlier, like I had, I'd sold one pilot television show three years ago. It didn't get made. We sold six shows to different networks in the past two weeks.
- [19:02]
Mindy Kaling
Amazing.
- [19:03]
Reese Witherspoon
Which is so exciting. And they're all about women at the center of the stories and female creators behind the scenes. And it just feels like an incredible shift for me and momentum that I've never had before, particularly in tv, which is so exciting to me.
- [19:19]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, let's talk about you, Ms. Mindy. Let's talk about the fact that of the deeper meaning behind you achieving so much in your career. You said that it's so important for women who look like me, look like you, to find that they can be beautiful or objects of love, attention and affection. I want to know if you saw yourself that way at first and how did that process unfold for you?
- [19:44]
Mindy Kaling
You know, for someone who is often touted for my confidence, I think that at the beginning, and certainly when I was working on the Office for so many years, I did not feel that way. But what occurred to me in the time that I worked at the Office was when I was watching TV, and the TV landscape has changed so much even in the past 10 years is, although I was having a fun, romantic love life and having friends and dating, that no one who looked like me, that was ever reflected in anything that I ever saw. There was many shows that I was fans of, like Sex and the City and all, but no one. There was. It was four fun, dynamic white women. And that was what all. That's what you got. And it was a wonderful show, but I just hadn't seen anything except that. Except, you know, maybe like, Living Single, which had been before that. And so, for me, it was very transformative for me to be able to not only be able to be the lead in something which was surprising enough, but to also represent a group of people that had largely been left out of being able to show and express romantic love on television. And so that felt really special. And that continues to be, even now, as the show is airing its final episodes. The thing that most people stop me, Asian women, African American women, who come up to me and say, thank you for looking like me, for having a dynamic, fun love life and doing that. So that's. I'm very proud of that.
- [21:12]
Oprah Winfrey
You know, I love all these, like, super soul conversations, and this is a super soul podcast. I wanted to ask you about your mother, whom I know you loved and adored, and she lost her battle with pancreatic cancer on the same day that your show, the Mindy Project, was given the green light. And I always say when you lose somebody you love that you gain an angel that, you know. And I really do believe in the connection between the spirit life and our own life, because I believe that we're all spirits. Did you see the divine timing in that, too?
- [21:52]
Mindy Kaling
I did, and I think the way that you expressed it is exactly how I felt it. I think that is the perfect expression of what it was, because it was such a long shot. I mean, my show had been passed over at NBC, where I had worked for eight years. I'd written 26 episodes of the Office, and I wrote this pilot for them. They passed over on it. So it was such a long shot that it would travel to Fox and they would even be interested in it because they had their own development going. And so, you know, I was keeping my mother abreast of all of this towards the end because it was she loved asking about. Loved asking about it and wanted to know it. And so that was, I think, divine. Timing was correct. I mean, it was as though when she passed away, there was something. She was able to help me in another way. It was within the hour, actually, and I didn't get the news because I.
- [22:41]
Oprah Winfrey
Believe that so strongly.
- [22:42]
Mindy Kaling
It was very, very strange. But I do. I 100% agree with you that she had something to do with it.
- [22:49]
Oprah Winfrey
You know what? I started to notice this when Maya Angelou's mother passed. Shortly after her mother passed, she got a call from the White House to do the poem at Bill Clinton's inauguration. And I said, that's your mother. And over and over again, I've seen in the lives of my friends who've lost dearly beloved loved ones how that transition, like when Ava's father passed, I said, watch what's going to happen. Doors are going to open, things are going to clear. Things are going to show up for you. So I wonder, do you ever feel her presence? Do you ever.
- [23:25]
Mindy Kaling
I do. I've been surprised at how. And you all have had loved ones who have passed away, but I've been surprised at how my relationship with her has continued even though she's not here. And I think that comes from the fact that when you know someone so well, you know what they would think in any situation. She was not a shrinking violet. She was very opinionated.
- [23:45]
Oprah Winfrey
So when you say the relationship is continued even though she's not here, in what way? How was that expressed?
- [23:50]
Mindy Kaling
If something comes up in the news or even if I'm trying, if I'm trying on an outfit in the morning, I can look in the mirror, and I would know what she would think. And sometimes, I mean, I will have the most vivid dreams as someone who's. I'm very skeptical as a person, but I will have the most vivid dreams of her talking to me. And even in my dreams, I'm skeptical. I'm asking her, mom, how can this be? I know you're not here. And she's like, I know, but I am here. And I had a dream like this two months ago, and I was, you know, five and a half months pregnant, and I woke up and I said, I know that you're supposed to have weird pregnancy dreams, but this one is like, I was an investigative journalist with my own mother, and the dreaming like, this isn't real, Mom. And she's like, I know, but it is. So. And she was telling me that she was all right. So I do believe my relationship Both when I'm asleep and then also in my decision making. She's always there.
- [24:41]
Oprah Winfrey
I believe that. That doesn't sound weird to me at all. And so what is. First of all, what's the greatest lesson she passed on to you?
- [24:50]
Mindy Kaling
She has a saying. I don't think she invented this, but she told me it, so it was new to me. She said, before you can I love you, you need to be able to say I. Which has been something that I have seen in my romantic relationships, my platonic relationships, my professional relationships. But. And that has been. Before you can give yourself to somebody else, you need to know what you stand for.
- [25:12]
Oprah Winfrey
Whoa.
- [25:12]
Mindy Kaling
And anytime I have been in an unsuccessful relationship in my past, I have noticed, oh, it's because one of us was not able to say I.
- [25:19]
Oprah Winfrey
You mean to stand in the eye.
- [25:21]
Mindy Kaling
To stand in the eye to know the I fully.
- [25:23]
Oprah Winfrey
Yeah.
- [25:25]
Mindy Kaling
So I thought that was very useful and has proven true over and over again.
- [25:28]
Oprah Winfrey
And what is the lesson that you most want to pass on to your child?
- [25:33]
Mindy Kaling
That's a great question. I don't know. I don't know yet. It's a great question. And I'll have to. I'll have to come back to you on that one. It's a good one.
- [25:41]
Oprah Winfrey
It's a good one.
- [25:42]
Mindy Kaling
Yeah.
- [25:42]
Oprah Winfrey
You can start with that one.
- [25:43]
Mindy Kaling
I know.
- [25:44]
Oprah Winfrey
Maybe start with the passing. Start with that. Start with the passing on the. I. You know, what I found so interesting reading about you, Reese, is that when your mother saw Wild, she said you must have seen me or known me in some way because that turns out to have been part of what your mother was feeling. You must have somehow energetically taken that on because your mom lost her mother very young when she was about the same age as Cheryl strayed in Wild. And so do you think you did that? Is talking about energy being transferred. Do you think you saw that?
- [26:19]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah, in a way, I think I was walking in my mother's shoes. Yeah. Because she. Well, no, she was very expressive when we were little that she missed her mother every single day. Part of the way Mindy and I know each other is through Wild. We really connected through that movie and talking about it and.
- [26:39]
Mindy Kaling
You know. Yeah.
- [26:39]
Reese Witherspoon
And my mother lost her mom to a brain aneurysm when my mom was 20. And I think it was the sadness of her life. She still cries about it if it comes up. It's very real for her. And so I think, in a way, Wild was a very healing process for me to discover my mother's grief and to Talk to her about it. And I would call her, because I.
- [27:01]
Oprah Winfrey
Read somewhere where you said you were holding that grief and didn't even know you were older.
- [27:04]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. I think kids hold the grief of their parents. That's exactly right. And trauma in your body. And I remember I had to call my mom, and I said. Because there was a scene where I have to go into the room and Laura Dern is dying. And I said, I need you to tell me what happened that day. So she got to tell me, and she had never told me, and it was just so powerful. Yeah. It turns out my mother's birthday is Cheryl's mother's birthday, too. So all these points of connection, and it's one of the most beautiful books I've ever read about grief and figuring out yourself and how you build yourself up again. And I love that she said she walked back to the woman she knew her mother wanted her to be. And, yeah, in a way, I feel like my mother and I kind of closed the circle on that with Laura. And Laura.
- [27:55]
Oprah Winfrey
With Laura in the scene.
- [27:57]
Reese Witherspoon
Yes, absolutely.
- [27:59]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, you know, women have now been in the workforce for decades and are. Fortunately, there are more leaders now than ever before and more women who, like yourselves, were doing the hiring. But we still have this thing of tearing each other down, creating in groups, you know, and out groups. Now that you're in roles of power and leadership, have you tried to change that and how.
- [28:29]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah, I mean, my experience on sets is I immediately invite everybody to dinner or over to my house, because I feel like the minute you take off the work hat and you have to just have a glass of wine with some or just have a meal, you start to see who they really are. And I just. I think it cuts down every barrier, every intention. Now, I'm not gonna say I haven't worked with people who are, you know, contentious, but of course. But it really diffuses a lot by setting a tone.
- [29:01]
Mindy Kaling
I think the performance is better also. I think.
- [29:03]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. And when you're the leader of a group and you're number one on a call sheet, it's imperative that you set the tone. And I watch you do it on set, you know, and you. It's like your attitude, the way you treat people. People. The way you respond to people is. It's so important.
- [29:17]
Mindy Kaling
And what you were saying, Oprah, I'm sure you've felt this countless times because you've employed so many thousands and thousands of people, is that that is often. Often happens, because as a woman who's an employee, often, you are the only woman. And you think, there's not enough space for me or there's only going to be one Indian woman or there's only going to be one minority. I hope I'm it. I can't help anybody else. And, you know, those are the terrible habits you learn when you're younger and when I was younger in the business, and then as you are as an employer, like, well, if I can stop that anxiety from young women, if I can hire, there isn't only going to be one Indian woman, one African American woman, one woman period in here. There's going to be space for lots. So you don't have to have that anxiety anymore. I think that's one way that we can help or that I've tried to help.
- [30:03]
Reese Witherspoon
So do you give voice to that when you.
- [30:05]
Mindy Kaling
Yeah, I mean, on my new show, NBC does this wonderful thing, guys, I have a new show on NBC where they. They have one spot, they say, for every staff writer. Well, they will pay for a staff writer if it's a staff writer of color. So it's good because they are going to help offset the cost. But then also it makes a competition for this one spot. And so this year we had several women, and I said, could you do two or could we split it? And we figured out a financial arrangement so that we could have two writers so that they didn't feel like there was vying for this one spot. And it pits, you know, pits women against each other.
- [30:37]
Oprah Winfrey
What I found interesting, when I read up on both of you, can you imagine I'm reading up on you after all this time I spent with you?
- [30:43]
Reese Witherspoon
I have a picture of that.
- [30:47]
Oprah Winfrey
But anyway, I found that you both don't like the word likable. You both don't like the word likable.
- [30:52]
Reese Witherspoon
I don't like that word.
- [30:53]
Oprah Winfrey
Mindy, you said that you take pride in creating the kids character on the Mindy project that you know, isn't always likable. And Reese, you said you're actually allergic to the word likable. Tell me why go first.
- [31:06]
Mindy Kaling
Well, to me, likable is likable to men. To me, that. And I. And I. I think that that is something I'm. I don't care. I want to not care about that as much. I think relatable is important.
- [31:19]
Oprah Winfrey
I think it is true.
- [31:20]
Mindy Kaling
Yeah, I like that word. Relatable is better. And I have made so many mistakes where I've made my character not relatable, thinking that, oh, no, I don't want her to be likable for, you know, standing on a, you know, trying to be. Put my feminist hat on, like, I don't care. And then thought, well, no, she isn't relatable either. And that has been my own failing. But knowing the difference has been important to me. You've made. I mean, especially in Big Little Lies, Madeline says some very out there things. She's always relatable. Yeah, he's always relatable.
- [31:49]
Reese Witherspoon
Well, it's important, I think I sat in so many meetings with studio heads going over scripts in my early part of my career where I was in romantic comedy after romantic comedy and hearing things like, yeah, but would audiences like it if she did that? And. Or she can't kiss another man or be in a relationship. She can't look like she likes two guys at once. And I don't know, it was just so much. And it was always a group of men telling me what they thought was a likable quality in a woman. So, you know, when I started, when I did independent films, I would do things like Election, which is, you know, Tracy Flick is lots and lots of things, but not necessarily likable. And I had a hard time getting jobs after that performance because studio heads thought I was crazy. Like, too ambitious.
- [32:40]
Mindy Kaling
She was very ambitious.
- [32:41]
Reese Witherspoon
She was ambitious. And it was repellent.
- [32:43]
Oprah Winfrey
They don't think you're so crazy anymore. Big little eyes moment. They don't think you're so crazy.
- [32:48]
Reese Witherspoon
I think people want to see.
- [32:49]
Oprah Winfrey
Or they're like, give us some of that crazy. Yeah.
- [32:53]
Reese Witherspoon
I think people want to see the full spectrum of female behavior. I think they're pretty tired.
- [32:57]
Oprah Winfrey
All of its messiness and complexity.
- [33:00]
Mindy Kaling
And Henrietta Lacks. That was not a perfect woman.
- [33:03]
Oprah Winfrey
No, no. She had some.
- [33:05]
Mindy Kaling
By no means. And she had. She suffered, but she was not an angel. And I thought that was so, you know, so compelling because I think you would think in that particular kind of story it would like victim. This character is a victim.
- [33:18]
Oprah Winfrey
That's right.
- [33:19]
Mindy Kaling
And she.
- [33:19]
Oprah Winfrey
I think George Woolf wanted specifically to direct it so. And have it produced so that she wouldn't appear to be. But in a Wrinkle in time, the three of us play what some people might see as guardian angels. Do you believe in angels?
- [33:36]
Mindy Kaling
I've never thought about it for sure.
- [33:38]
Reese Witherspoon
I believe in angels.
- [33:39]
Oprah Winfrey
I love asking a question you never thought about.
- [33:40]
Mindy Kaling
I've never thought about it. I believe.
- [33:41]
Oprah Winfrey
Do you believe you've never thought about your guardian angels?
- [33:45]
Mindy Kaling
I've never thought, I don't know that I have a guardian angel. I think of beings that Are thinking about me and protecting me. But I've never put the term angel on it.
- [33:55]
Reese Witherspoon
I had a really bad card wreck six years ago. I was hit by a car. I was actually jogging. I was hit by a car. And I got really badly hurt and bad head injury. And I walked away with no broken bones, no head trauma, no internal bleeding. And the doctors were like, I don't understand it. And I know. I know I have angels. And I have to talk about it because it wouldn't be. It wouldn't acknowledge the kind of. To me that's divine intervention, or somebody took care of me that day, I wouldn't be here. It was that violent and difficult.
- [34:33]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, we were talking earlier. Your mom is one for sure. Your mother is one for sure.
- [34:37]
Mindy Kaling
Put that into those terms. But you're right.
- [34:39]
Oprah Winfrey
100% guarantee. And I don't just have. I have a team.
- [34:45]
Mindy Kaling
I have a team who is.
- [34:47]
Oprah Winfrey
Well, my grandmother and grandmothers before her. I mean, I have a team. I've actually.
- [34:52]
Reese Witherspoon
Do they. Do you see them or.
- [34:54]
Oprah Winfrey
No, I've never seen them. And actually told them, don't want to, don't want to, don't want. I'm not ready for that yet. But I do. I'm supported by. You know, there's a wonderful poem by Maya Angelou that says. I think it's called a poem to our grandmothers, actually, where she says, I come as one, but I stand as 10,000. And often I've been in boardrooms where I was the only woman, only person of color. You couldn't find another woman or another person of color within a hundred mile radius. I've been in those situations where you're like, is there a brown kind of looking person somewhere? And before I walk into that room, I will say that poem, the line from that poem. I come as one, but I stand as 10,000. Because I feel the presence. I feel the energy of the. There's a whole pack behind me.
- [35:44]
Mindy Kaling
So empowering.
- [35:45]
Oprah Winfrey
There's a tribe behind me. And when I've had to make difficult decisions in my company, I literally went into my closet and I called them up. I said, okay, going in. Gonna do it. Stand with me. So, yeah, I definitely do believe in the energies of people who passed who are still, you know, with us in some way. Yeah.
- [36:07]
Reese Witherspoon
And the people came before us who cut the path that we stand in. I'm always deferential.
- [36:12]
Mindy Kaling
Eva wears that shirt. You know, I am my ancestor's greatest dream.
- [36:15]
Oprah Winfrey
Greatest dream.
- [36:16]
Mindy Kaling
And I love it.
- [36:18]
Oprah Winfrey
That's why doing wrinkle Was just like, oh, this makes sense to me. Okay, what's the most difficult decision you've had to make to fulfill your destiny?
- [36:27]
Reese Witherspoon
For me, probably leaving an abusive relationship.
- [36:31]
Mindy Kaling
For me, it was realizing that I was not going to be friends with everybody along the path of achieving what I wanted, that I would have to, it's not that profound. But that I would make enemies, make people that would not be my friends and being okay with that.
- [36:50]
Oprah Winfrey
Okay, I have to follow up to leaving an abusive relationship. What was the decision? There's a moment. Was it physically, verbally, verbally?
- [36:58]
Reese Witherspoon
Both psychological? Verbal? Yeah.
- [37:03]
Oprah Winfrey
Okay. And at what, what moment? Was it several instances or some moment.
- [37:09]
Reese Witherspoon
You decided a line got drawn in the sand and it got crossed and my brain just switched and I knew it was going to be very difficult, but I just couldn't go any further. But it was profound. And I was young, really young, and.
- [37:25]
Oprah Winfrey
That made all the difference.
- [37:26]
Reese Witherspoon
I could never be the person I am today. I was a different person too. It changed who I was on a cellular level. The fact that I stood up for myself, the fact that. And none of leaving those situations is easy because it's wrought with self doubt. Particularly if someone damages your self esteem, which is, I mean, people say to me, they knew me then, they're like, you're a complete. I didn't have self esteem and I'm a different person now. And it's part of the reason I can stand up and say, yes, I'm ambitious and yes, because someone tried to take that from me.
- [37:56]
Oprah Winfrey
And it's also part of the reason why you want to or a part of your drive is telling the complexity of those stories for other women.
- [38:05]
Reese Witherspoon
It was incredible when we did big little lies how we would sit around all the women and talk about. Each one of us had very specific experiences. They weren't. There was a range of experiences, but there wasn't a woman there that hadn't been affected, affected by abuse. Not one of those women. And it's why we decided to make this showing you. I'm hard pressed to find any group of women where you can't say, it happened to my sister, it happened to my mom, I saw this. And there's a range of abuse. You know, there's verbal, there's psychological. There's so many things other than physical that can be completely detrimental to your self worth, your self esteem and your progress.
- [38:48]
Oprah Winfrey
And you know what? It's all the same because I remember holding as a standard for myself having grown up watching a cousin of mine who was like My mother's sister and I grew up in the house with her older cousin, and her boyfriend used to abuse her. So that was my standard. I will never physically abuse her. And as a kid, I was like 10, saw him knock her down the stairs. So my thing was, I'll never let somebody hit me. I'll never let somebody hit me. So I lived in that superior, better than thou space of, as long as he doesn't hit me. Well, he can say anything, he can do anything, but as long as he doesn't hit me. And one day in my 20s, guy was leaving, the person who wouldn't hit me slammed the door in my hand, and I fell and I saw myself in the mirror, and I realized I had become that woman who would allow myself to be psychologically verbally assaulted and that there was no difference between that and being actually hit.
- [39:54]
Reese Witherspoon
No. And the more we give voice to it, like you just did so beautifully, and the more that we make art about it and tell stories. You were saying it's great to see a story about changes consciousness.
- [40:06]
Oprah Winfrey
That's why Nicole's sitting in that therapy office and confessing the shame of it. You know, because.
- [40:15]
Reese Witherspoon
And hiding it first.
- [40:16]
Oprah Winfrey
And hiding it at first. And then confessing the shame of it.
- [40:18]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Oprah Winfrey
Was so important. Okay, what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn?
- [40:24]
Mindy Kaling
Lesson that it's okay to say no?
- [40:27]
Reese Witherspoon
I was gonna say the same thing.
- [40:28]
Mindy Kaling
Really?
- [40:28]
Reese Witherspoon
But I still haven't learned.
- [40:30]
Oprah Winfrey
That would be mine too.
- [40:32]
Reese Witherspoon
Yeah. I think when you're a yes person.
- [40:34]
Oprah Winfrey
Now you've got it.
- [40:35]
Reese Witherspoon
Do you?
- [40:35]
Mindy Kaling
No. I would say that I was gonna amend it and be saying, I'm still trying to learn it. But saying no is the hardest thing.
- [40:42]
Cricket Wireless Commercial Announcer
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- [40:43]
Reese Witherspoon
When you're a person, I think a positive person and an outgoing person and you love life, you want to say yes all the time, and it can be debilitating.
- [40:49]
Mindy Kaling
You're an A student. You're a people pleaser.
- [40:51]
Reese Witherspoon
I'm tired a lot. I gotta learn. You know that It's Shonda the book of Y.
- [40:56]
Mindy Kaling
The year of yes.
- [40:56]
Reese Witherspoon
I was like, I need a year of no. Or Sheryl Sandberg wants you to lean in. I'm like, I need to sit down. I lean over anymore.
- [41:05]
Mindy Kaling
I gotta fall over.
- [41:07]
Oprah Winfrey
I need to lean back and take a nap.
- [41:09]
Mindy Kaling
Totally.
- [41:10]
Oprah Winfrey
All right. We could talk forever. But thank you for joining me.
- [41:13]
Mindy Kaling
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [41:16]
Oprah Winfrey
I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another super soul conversation. Thank you for listening.
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- [41:44]
Mindy Kaling
Best burgers I've ever had.
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Oprah Winfrey
Supply.
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