Super Soul Special: Rob Bell: Let's Talk About God

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Rob Bell – Let’s Talk About God

Podcast: Oprah’s Super Soul
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Rob Bell
Date: June 18, 2025
Episode Theme:
A wide-ranging, deeply personal conversation between Oprah and spiritual leader Rob Bell about reimagining our understanding of God, spirituality versus religion, the nature of faith and doubt, and living a more present, meaningful life.

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Episode Overview

Oprah sits down with Rob Bell, the bestselling author and influential former pastor, to discuss his unique and modern take on God, faith, and the spiritual journey. The episode explores key questions about the divine, human flourishing, doubt, the present moment, vocation, and the shift from traditional religious views toward a more expansive spiritual understanding. Bell’s insights invite listeners to awaken to the sacred value in everyday moments and to embrace their own doubts, seeking wonder over certainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A “Massive Rethink” of God

[03:46]

• Rob Bell describes society’s changing view of God:
  • Many see God as punitive or distant, inherited from outdated paradigms (“God is against us… waiting to punish or torment” – Rob Bell [03:46]).
  • He calls for a clearing away of old baggage: “You have to just brush all that off and go, what do we really mean?” – Rob Bell [03:46].
• The “Oldsmobile metaphor”:
  • Bell likens outdated images of God to the now-defunct Oldsmobile car—something that worked for a prior generation, but no longer fits modern life [04:50–05:17].

2. Transcendence in Ordinary Life

[06:24]

• Bell notes that even skeptics of religion seek transcendent experiences—moments that point “beyond” themselves, such as childbirth or a great meal (“We use the word like that meal was transcendent... It was both here, and yet it sort of pointed beyond itself” – Rob Bell [06:36]).
• References to the theologian Jürgen Moltmann and the idea of ‘echoes of a larger sound’ [07:09].

3. Faith, Doubt, and the Leap

[07:50]

• Oprah observes that people see faith and doubt as opposites; Bell says they are “excellent dance partners” (“Everybody’s really leaping... Everybody ultimately is leaping” – Rob Bell [08:24]).
• Bell suggests that even strong rationalists take their own leap of faith in believing only in the material world.

4. God Beyond Analysis

[09:08]

• Oprah prompts Rob about the German word ‘grenzenbegriff’—“that which is real but beyond analysis” [09:18].
• Some of the truest things—love, music—can’t be fully rationalized.

5. Science, Secularism, and the Sacred

[09:47]

• Bell: Dividing science and sacred experience is “lethal” as it blocks us from celebrating what is good and beautiful wherever we find it (“The only kind of faith worth having is faith that can celebrate the good and the true and the beautiful... a big, buoyant, sort of expansive embrace” – Rob Bell [09:52]).

6. A New View of God: The All, the Source, the Presence

[10:09]

• Oprah and Rob align on expansive definitions of God:
  • “The energy, the glue, the force, the life, the power, the source of all...” – Oprah Winfrey quoting Rob Bell [10:40].
• God is not “somewhere else”; rather, God is the vital force in all things (“The very thing we’re all plugged into” – Rob Bell [13:44]).

7. God With Us & For Us: Human Flourishing

[14:14]

• God is WITH us—in every moment (“As a human, the art of it, then, is being awake and open and aware and sensitive to this presence right here and now” – Rob Bell [13:58]).
• God is FOR us—desiring flourishing, healing, and thriving on earth [14:18–15:13]:
  • “At the heart of the Christian story is the God who comes among us. Because this God wants us to flourish, wants us to shine.” – Rob Bell [14:18]
  • This is not “evacuation theology,” but a call to create Heaven on Earth [15:44–16:09].

8. The Present Moment and Presence

[21:42–24:37]

• Oprah highlights Bell’s willingness to teach from sources like Eckhart Tolle and asks about the connection between God and the present.
• Bell recounts his concussion, which forced radical presence: “The brain could only do this moment... The most simple things and the most simple gestures. And it was literally, like, overwhelmingly beautiful.” – Rob Bell [23:31]
• Oprah: Suffering and crisis often awaken us to presence and intention [24:02].

9. Everything is Spiritual

[25:11]

• Bell: “Everything is spiritual... You’re always living your spiritual life—it’s whether you observe it or not.”
• Dangers of compartmentalizing spiritual life from work or other aspects.

10. Calling, Purpose, and Vocation

[26:23–27:59]

• The “calling” is less about dramatic revelations and more about infusing meaning and beauty into ordinary roles, such as house cleaning or hairdressing (“You are about the enhancement of beauty. That’s what you do.” – Oprah [27:03]).
• Oprah: Realizing that it’s not just about the job, but about what you bring to it (“I got that it wasn’t just about working on television. It was about using television to inspire people.” – Oprah [27:58]).

11. Seeing Versus Knowing and Hope

[28:07]

• You can know a lot about God doctrinally yet not truly see (“It’s another thing to be sitting there with somebody and...realize this person has more to teach me than every book I’ve read.” – Rob Bell [28:23]).
• The essence of talking about God is sustaining hope that things are headed “somewhere good.” [29:11–29:42]:
  • “That sense you have... that hope is real, that things are headed somewhere. And that… somewhere is good.” – Oprah [29:11]

12. On Wonder and Living Fully

[32:34]

• “I didn’t ask for success. I asked for wonder.” – Rob Bell [32:34]
• Modern people have everything and yet are bored; the antidote is recovering wonder and child-like awe.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The only kind of faith worth having is faith that can celebrate the good and the true and the beautiful and wherever you find it.” – Rob Bell [09:52]
• “God is love.” – Rob Bell [36:35]
• “Everything is spiritual... You’re always living your spiritual life. It’s whether you observe it or not.” – Rob Bell [25:11]
• “All that’s left to do is enjoy.” – Rob Bell on the lesson he’s taken longest to learn [34:25]
• “I didn’t ask for success. I asked for wonder.” – Rob Bell [32:34]
• “The world needs all of us to wake up. I believe that we’re going to be fine. I really do.” – Rob Bell [36:07]

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Significant Timestamps

• 03:46 – 04:50: How outdated images of God limit spiritual growth (“Oldsmobile” metaphor).
• 06:24 – 07:36: On transcendent experiences and what they mean.
• 08:24 – 09:08: On faith and doubt as partners.
• 10:09 – 10:42: Defining God as “the all.”
• 13:37 – 13:44: Reframing God from “somewhere out there” to the energy of life.
• 14:14 – 15:13: God as “for us”—human flourishing.
• 16:09 – 16:53: Heaven on earth as real, present experience.
• 21:42 – 24:37: The present moment, trauma, and true presence.
• 25:11 – 25:13: Everything is spiritual.
• 26:23 – 27:59: Redefining vocation and calling.
• 28:07 – 29:11: Seeing with spiritual eyes.
• 32:34 – 32:59: Choosing wonder over worldly success.
• 34:25 – 34:47: “There’s nothing to prove... All that’s left to do is enjoy.”
• 36:07 – 36:20: “The world needs all of us to wake up. I believe that we’re going to be fine.”
• 36:23 – 36:33: “Heaven is... here and now, and then and there, and at hand and among us and upon us and available and real.”
• 36:35 – 36:41: “God is... love.”

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Quick Reflection: The Essence of the Conversation

This episode is a contemplative, generous conversation that invites listeners to see God not as a remote judge, but as an ever-present force of love, creativity, and life. Bell and Oprah challenge the binary of faith versus doubt and assert that every moment—no matter how ordinary—can be fully spiritual. By reframing calling, presence, and the purpose of religion and spirituality, the discussion offers hope and practical wisdom for those seeking a deeper connection to meaning, wonder, and the sacred in daily life.

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Final Takeaways

• God is ever-present, not distant; the divine is found in every act of love, beauty, and creativity.
• Faith and doubt are not opposites, but complementary aspects of spiritual growth.
• Living in the present moment is the surest way to encounter the sacred.
• Callings are realized in bringing intention and beauty to whatever task lies before us.
• Wonder, rather than success, brings lasting fulfillment.
• We are each tasked to wake up, celebrate life, and move the world toward what is good and just.

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For a rich, personal, and practical exploration of spirituality, this episode is a must-listen for those longing to experience God, meaning, and themselves more deeply in the here and now.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Foreign I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Rob Bell is many things. A best selling author, a dynamic public speaker, and founder of a Midwestern megachurch, he's been called a central figure for his generation. Bell stands out as a pastor who embraces the big questions that many people have about faith and religion. And Bell says he has been aware of his spirituality since he was a child. At 22, Rob entered seminary in Pasadena, so six years later founded his first church back home in Michigan. He called it Mars Hill Bible Church and it was different. There was no dress code, there was no choir and no pulpit. The response was overwhelming. The congregation became one of the fastest growing churches in the country. In 2005, Rob published his first book called Velvet Repainting the Christian Faith, and three more provocatively titled books soon followed his intention to provide a fresh and personal perspective on God and matters of Christianity. Then in 2011, Rob released the book that would be the game changer. Love Wins pondered the questions that are often considered taboo in traditional Christianity. What if heaven is open to all rather than a select few? And what if hell doesn't exist at all? For hundreds of thousands of readers, Rob's teachings were A revelation. Now, in his latest book, what We Talk About When We Talk About God, Rob explores our relationship with the higher power through his characteristically untraditional lens. I was thrilled to finally meet Rob after reading his books. So as the clouds began to roll down the Maui mountainside, we gathered on my front porch for a super soul chat. So you say we're in the midst of a massive rethink when it comes to God, with the end of one era and the beginning of another. Let's talk about that. What does that mean, Pastor Bell?

[Rob Bell]

I think there are moments when a word has got so much stuff attached to it that you have to just brush all that off and go, what do we really mean? And for many people, like I talk about in the book, God is against us. God doesn't want human flourishing. God is the one waiting to punish or torment or judgment and wrath. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because when you say to people, God is love, there's a whole other group of people say, yeah, he may be love, but God is also judgment and wrath and Right.

[Rob Bell]

And so punishing.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

Whatever that discussion is, people immediately take that to mean whatever struggle I'm going through, whatever life is really like for me, God is against me. I'm on my own, and maybe I have a couple of friends. And so there is this extraordinary thing that you and I and others have tapped into where you are not alone, and there is help and there is guidance.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I love the way that you speak. First of all, it speaks just like you talking right now. It sounds like I'm reading the book. I'm talking to you. You say God is kind of like an Oldsmobile. Was that.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I grew up in the center of Michigan, and Oldsmobiles were made down the road. And that was the thing. Like Thanksgiving. After the meal, the uncles and every grandpas all went in the garage.

[Oprah Winfrey]

My dad had one 1958 green Osmo. Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

See everybody? And people can do like, was that a Delta 88 or a 98? Yeah. And that was, like, the moment. And if you'd made it or if you'd done something, then you got an Oldsmobile.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yes.

[Rob Bell]

But they've shut those factories down. They're not making them anymore. And my experience is interacting with lots of very educated, intelligent people who have traveled and have a thousand songs in their pocket with their iPhone. I mean, they live in this modern, gleaming, shimmering world and are like, seriously, God? Come on. Really? It's a giant step backwards. So I was in the book trying to look for, like, what's the image or the metaphor. That sort of summarizes to me the lots of people I've interacted with. When you talk about God, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, yeah, that was nice. That worked for my parents. Or they grow up in a religious home, then they go to university and they take a bunch of classes, whether it's biology or comparative religions. And they're like, the idea of the divine then gets firmly placed. That was back when I was a kid. That was my adolescence, that was summer camp. That was my parents. But I've moved past that. Look at all the things. Seriously, we need a God now. Look at us. We're all going to start traveling to space here pretty soon, if Richard Branson or somebody can arrange that in time. And yet the same people would say to you, like, seriously, church, come on. We'll also talk about a sunset or a glass of wine and talk about, oh, it was amazing. It was like, transcendent.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Talk about that, though, for people who haven't read the book yet, in the.

[Rob Bell]

Book, I sort of talk about, there's a very popular voice that says, this is all there is.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

We're simply just a complex arrangement of neurons and synapses, and you're the sum of your biology.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And.

[Rob Bell]

And it's very articulate, and it can be very funny and very compelling, and it can explain why there have been bad wars and the crusades and such. And so people go, yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, I'm with that. But it still leaves people with this giant. Then how do I explain when my first kid was born, or when my partner embraces me, or when I sit with my favorite friends on the deck having a meal and something within me. We use the word like that meal was transcendent. What do we mean? We mean it was both here, and yet it sort of pointed beyond itself. It seems to be a reference the great German theologian Jurgen Moltmann talks about. It's like an echo. This thing here was like an echo of a larger sound.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, so many people. You were talking about science and logic, but so many people have no proof. And because there's no proof, they say, you know, how could you believe in something that you can't prove?

[Rob Bell]

And this says, you can't see God, except you can. Yeah. That's the thing about the modern world is what it did is it took truth for many people and it put it through this unbelievably narrow filter of rational scientific analysis. But then explain, why do you love that person? Well, I just do some of the things that we're most convinced are true. We can't jam through that filter.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I love that you say that for many people, faith and doubt are opposites. That. But they really are excellent dance partners. Even though Rob has always been a man of great faith, after turning 30, he started to question what he'd been taught his whole life. To accept the Bible word for word. He immersed himself in biblical history, drawing inspiration from Jewish rabbinical scholars whose faith was actually strengthened by questioning. Rob felt empowered to embrace his doubts head on. And he gained the confidence he needed to make a leap of faith.

[Rob Bell]

Everybody's really leaping. Everybody's really taking sort of fragments and the shrapnel you have of your experiences, and you're leaping into this story or this story. I'm going to make the leap that what I do matters, that I'm not an accident, that there is some call on my life that in itself is actually a leap. And other people go, mm, mm. This is all there is. At some point, you're gonna die and they're gonna bury you and you're gonna be eaten by the worms. And I mean, everybody ultimately is leaping. And I think the people in the modern world with the most sort of. This is the rational, scientific evidence why there is no God. That's just as much a leap.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So that is what you mean by God being a reality, known and felt, but difficult to analyze. And there's really a German word for it. What is that word? I couldn't pronounce in the book.

[Rob Bell]

One of the versions is grenzenbegruff, which I love these. I just love strange words. But I love that there's this word of that which is real but beyond analysis. It's even like a category. It's that which. I don't know why I love that song. And I could try to explain to you that album and how it touched me and moved me and how I crank it up in my car when I'm all alone and I get all like, ah, what I'm singing. And it's so real to me what that collection of songs does. And yet if I had to, like, you know, put it out on paper, A, B, C, D. I don't know.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And yet you say there's this lethal division of the science and the sacred. Lethal.

[Rob Bell]

Well, I think it cuts people off from celebrating. You know, to me, the only kind of faith worth having is faith that can celebrate the good and the true and the beautiful. And wherever you find it, it's a big Buoyant, sort of expansive embrace of every. Everywhere you find it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you think you also, you know, my definition of God is the all, the all in the all, through the all, above the all in the all. And then you on page 18, basically say the same thing, Understand God to be. These are your words. The energy, the glue, the force, the life, the power, the source of all we know to be, the depth that. The fullness, vitality of life, from the highest of the highs to the lowest of the lows and everything in between. I think that's the all.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So let's begin with where you begin. In the book we first need to.

[Rob Bell]

Open, and I seriously, first and foremost, to all the really smart, studied people who've been to the TED conference and have iPhones, it's not crazy to acknowledge that there's a God. It may actually be the most rational move is simply to say, I come to the end of my own logical powers and acknowledge there's too much that's beyond what we can sort through using these little brains that we have.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right.

[Rob Bell]

And for 300 years, the water we've been swimming in, that we've been handed by the Enlightenment tradition, which has brought us medicines and hospitals and all sorts of wonderful things, has also brought us ultimately, if you cannot explain it, I don't know. And yet we're fascinated. As humans, we're wired for the mysterious. We love it, we're drawn to it. You can't stifle it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you're saying just open to that.

[Rob Bell]

It's okay to be open. It's okay to be open. For many people in the modern world, God is somewhere else, generally with a long beard, on a cloud. Right. And he was quite grumpy until Jesus came.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Absolutely. And I, when I was a kid, my version was. He was. He was on a cloud, long beard, white robes, and had a big black book.

[Rob Bell]

And it was like, when he opened it, it was like the pages even had like, sort of. And so this God is somewhere else. And then from time to time, like people say, then God showed up. So apparently comes here from time to time.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

By the way, I don't think God shows up. I think we do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I do too.

[Rob Bell]

So this framework then, however helpful it may be, raises a thousand questions. Because my friend just died of cancer. And what about the Holocaust? Because it would have been really nice to show up then. So you end up with a God. What it does, in a far more subtle way, is that this world can go on just fine and that God becomes essentially optional. We then now have, like, he drops.

[Oprah Winfrey]

In every now and then.

[Rob Bell]

Exactly. So then you have pamphlets, and you have this whole thing called apologetics, which is, I'm gonna prove to you that. That God even exists, even though life goes on just fine here. So what's fascinating is the ancient Hebrews had this word ruah, which they spoke of, the life force that surges through all things. So it's the word in the very beginning of Genesis 1. Like this, the spirit hovering. But for many people in our world, spirit is that which is less real. You know what I mean? Oh, it's spiritual, which means there's sort of like jeans and shoes and plastic and porches, and then there's this other realm, sort of less real. We even do this up. Right. There's this stuff here.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And then there's.

[Rob Bell]

And then there's. Then the discussion becomes something far more different because we've all experienced that. I simply want to give the name God to that. So the person who says, oh, I don't know if I believe in God, but were you there in the hospital when your kid was born? What else was that?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Could the word life be another word for God? Yeah, yeah. You could exchange the words.

[Rob Bell]

Yes, exactly.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

What I'm trying to do in the book is simply move a person's conception from somewhere out here, optional, to the very thing we're all plugged into, that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We'Re experiencing the presence of in every.

[Rob Bell]

Single time, all the time around us.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

And so then, as a human, the art of it, then, is being awake and open and aware and sensitive to this presence right here and now, in suffering, in joy, in meeting a stranger, and however it works. Okay, so that's what I mean by with.

[Oprah Winfrey]

With us.

[Rob Bell]

Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And now for us.

[Rob Bell]

For us is about human flourishing. When you hear the word God, do you think God wants us to flourish, to get along, for there to be peace on earth, for there to be better art and more great food? And does God want us to take the best possible care of the earth? And I believe at the heart of the Christian story is the God who comes among us. Because this God wants us to flourish, wants us to shine. Jesus even talks about shining like stars in the universe. My experience has been, as a pastor, lots of people, when they start talking about spiritual things, somewhere in there is the God who's against us, who's mad, angry, and I'm trying to recapture no, for you, wants you to thrive, wants you to work through all your stuff, wants you to be Healed in the sense of like figuring out your past and figuring out your addictions and all the stuff we all sort of stumble through life carrying around.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So God is for humans, flourishing.

[Rob Bell]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And on earth is where it matters. On earth. Like when Jesus is teaching his disciples to pray God, your will be done on earth and as it is in heaven. So when he's teaching them, he's not saying, okay, here's the deal. I'm gonna tell you what you need to do so you can get out of here someday. He's telling them what it looks like for this place to be more and more the place. God.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The kingdom of heaven is at hand here.

[Rob Bell]

Right here, now, now, this place.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This place.

[Rob Bell]

So this is not an evacuation theology. That is about.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

I like that.

[Rob Bell]

Here's what you do to evacuation to get out of here, to get beamed up.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

And I think when it comes to spirituality, this is for many people, like, the missing piece. I'm not talking about sort of esoteric ideas about maybe someday when you die, you can get the proper sort of Ferrari on gold streets.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

I'm talking about what happens when you experience right here, right now, a quality of life that is earth and heaven coming together in this place. We even talk about heaven on earth. We sort of joke about that, but that's what he teaches us to do. Like when you forgive somebody, when you are generous, when you withhold judgment and you love, that's when you stand up for injustice. You are in that moment bringing heaven to earth. My understanding of God is the one who's way ahead, pulling us all forward into a better future. Peace, justice, beauty, love, equality. That God is actually ahead and that a promise is essentially a statement about that which is not yet true. And so my experience has been for lots of people, this turns the whole discussion around.

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[Rob Bell]

With the.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

When I knew you were a different kind of preacher. You were passing out Eckhart Tolle books and in your church, what, 10 years ago. So you're a fan of Eckhart Tolle and the power of now. What do you think is the connection between God and the present moment?

[Rob Bell]

That that's what we have, that's what we have, and that we burn an extraordinary amount of energies on our regrets of past or our stresses about where it's going to go and what we really have is right now in this moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Didn't you have a big moment about a big aha about present moment living after having a concussion?

[Rob Bell]

Yes, this was the summer of 2000 and I was really into water skiing and specifically trying to Do a backflip. And I had done, like, 20 in a row, and I landed on my head each time, and I got in the boat, and I don't remember it from there on, but someone apparently asked me what day it was, and I was like, I have no idea. And so I had, like, a. Basically, like, a concussion, like a football player would have. But what it did is my brain could only do this moment. I am talking to Oprah right now, and she's wearing a turquoise shirt.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yes.

[Rob Bell]

And I think she's cold from the wind and would like a shawl, but other than that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, I believe. Could I have a shawl, please? How'd you know?

[Rob Bell]

Just a feeling. But it was weird because the brain is only working that speed and, like, the past and the present.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you, shawl giver man.

[Rob Bell]

The choreography was outstanding.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was given, let me tell you. And it's just the color I was looking for, too. Thank you.

[Rob Bell]

But I could, like. It sounds so funny to talk about, but, like, my kids would walk in the room, and I would, like, tear up at how beautiful they are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It was because of the concussion.

[Rob Bell]

I could see the brain could only handle exactly what was present in the moment. The most simple things and the most simple gestures. And it was literally, like, overwhelmingly beautiful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Now, isn't that interesting that we have to be that you had to be disruptive, and most of us have to be disrupted and literally hit over the head to get that. And often, don't you think that's what crises and challenge and difficult. It's to focus you into the present moment so that you can live more fully with greater intention.

[Rob Bell]

Whenever I meet people who seem to be more wide awake than others, I always ask, when did you suffer? Just the other day, I was in Denver and met this guy who was, like, 58, 60, and had this joy. And I asked one of the people who worked for him what's his story? And they're like, oh, in his 30s, he had a total meltdown and lost it all and, you know, ended up, like, by the side of the road. Like, literally just. I have nothing. Yeah, he knows how it can all pass in a moment. Yeah, he has. There's nothing left but joy. That's how it works.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you know. You know how to go to that joy place and you know how to live more with a greater sense of presence of mind and intention when you've been through something.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what all that something is to teach you. There was a line in here, and I made so many Notes in the books that I might as well. I forgot where my most important notes were. But where? It just struck me. It just struck me when you said a lot of people are always reaching for their spiritual life. They're always saying, oh, you know, when I'm working on my spirituality or I'm working on my spiritual life. And you said it so succinctly that there is no separation. You're always.

[Rob Bell]

Everything is spiritual.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everything is spiritual.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you're always living your spiritual life. It's whether you observe it or not. It's what you were saying earlier about God. God's always there.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

And.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And, you know, God's just waiting for us to wake up and see it. Hey, I'm here.

[Rob Bell]

They'll be like, well, I have my spiritual life, then I have my work, and I have my relationships, and I have the things I do to sort of. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What about that? You say we live in a light world where so many things don't matter that it's easy to become numb. I think that's why so many people feel so disconnected.

[Rob Bell]

You know, I just met a guy who cleans houses for a living, and we're just chatting because we have, like, a mutual friend. And I said, so you clean. Tell me more about that. And he says, people allow me into their homes to bring order and cleanliness. And I was like, wow, you take this really seriously. He's like, oh, the fact that people would allow me into their most intimate spaces so that I could help a family bring order and beauty and cleanliness to their home so that they could have this kind of place to come home to. This is somebody who's figured it out. I was like, they must be so lucky to have you cleaning their house. He's like, mm, I'm the one who's blessed now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

See, that's so interesting, because I was just saying this to my hairdresser, Andre. You've seen Come out here many times already.

[Rob Bell]

Yes. Hi, Andre.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hi. Hi, Andre. Andre and I were talking about calling yesterday, and I said to Andre, andre, what do you think your true calling is? And he goes, I don't know. Something like that. He didn't know what his true calling is. I go, of course you know what your true calling is. And he was saying, well, I don't know. Well, can you change callings? And I. I say, it looks like you're a hairdresser, because he's done my hair now for 30 years. 30. 30 years, and I still have hair. That's a Big compliment. So I said, no, it's not just doing hair. You are about the enhancement of beauty.

[Rob Bell]

Beauty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what you do.

[Rob Bell]

Beauty.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You bring an enhancement of beauty which you use. The tools of the trade are your blow dryer and your curlers and all that stuff. But so for that guy who cleans people's houses to say that I bring order and beauty, and that's exactly right. That's what people get so messed up with the calling. They think the calling has to be some big. I am crying Moses and the burning bush and God is speaking to me, and I must, you know, do something with my life.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Rob Bell]

Well said.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's gonna be great is people think differently about what the physical job is versus what you really do. You know, like, for instance, I am on television. I have a job working on television and have had since I was 19 years old. But a long time ago, I got that it wasn't just about working on television. It was about using television to inspire people.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's what I do.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. There's a moment when they realize, hey, wait, this is tv. But it's more than tv. Yeah, this is cleaning houses. But this is more than cleaning houses.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What we talk about when we talk about God, page 123. You say you can be very religious and invoke the name of God and be able to quote lots of verses, be well versed in complicated theological systems, and yet not be a person who sees.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. It's one thing to have your head filled with all of the proper, whatever, thinking, whatever you were told was the right doctrine, or whatever you told was orthodox, or whatever you told that you're in and everybody else is out. Whatever that. But it's another thing to be sitting there with somebody and you're listening to them and you realize this person has more to teach me than every book I've read.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

You know what I mean? Seeing is different. It's a different set of muscles. It's too. I mean, this environment here is. I mean, this is stunning and beautiful, and lots of people would go, wow. But it's in moments that are darker and in uglier environments to still see that little piece of light. Like, that's the. That's the task.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This is my favorite, actually. This is really the essence of what the book is talking about. You say when we talk about God, page 121, we're talking about that sense you have, however stifled, faint, or repressed it, is that hope is real, that things are headed Somewhere. And that. That somewhere is good.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You believe that. You believe we as a culture, as a society, as a world.

[Rob Bell]

Right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Are ultimately held somewhere that is good.

[Rob Bell]

Okay. I went to the TED conference last year.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

They had asked how many people are religious, and a friend of mine guess was 2% of the people raised their hands. A couple days later, a guy named Bryan Stevenson talks. He's this lawyer, he works in the south with young men who have sort of been on the wrong end of the justice system. And he gave this talk about justice. At the end, he quoted Martin Luther King, who was quoting someone else. And he finishes with us. The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And they give him a standing ovation.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

So this is sort of the nexus of technology and design and education and, I mean, and innovation. This is the crowd.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Rob Bell]

And 2% would say, yeah, I'm religious. And yet a guy talks about the moral arc of the universe, and they go, yes, yes. It's almost like there's an intuitive. If I give up on the most basic impulse I have that there's some point.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Rob Bell]

I kind of. What is left? So I just find it fascinating that you would have.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. People just don't call it religion.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

If you're talking about the moral arc of the universe bending towards justice, that is what your spiritual life, your life is supposed to be about.

[Rob Bell]

It is this sense that. Don't tell me the best days. There is something within me that tells me there's a reason to keep going. Even if that's. Even if that's all you have. You have something that's. You have something pretty big there.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

And that's overwhelming.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So now you want to use your ministry, your life, your work, your next chapter to do specifically what.

[Rob Bell]

I want more people to have a sense that they are loved, that the grace of God is real and it's for them. And that when Jesus talked about eternal life, a certain kind of life that you can have in relationship with God now, that people would taste that and in response to that gift, say, well, what can I do? And find their calling. Find the thing that gets them up in the morning. Find the work, the task, the art that leaves them saying, man, I could do this forever. That's what I love. I love to see that moment. I love to see that moment.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Isn't that our true calling? Isn't that our true calling is to find what the purpose is and then be about the work of doing that?

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. Yeah. And when you see somebody who's had that experience. It's unbelievably inspiring. We have this, like, crisis of wonder. We have the modern world. We have everything we ever needed, and yet people are more bored than ever and sort of.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know. That's why when you said that. When you said that, I just interrupted. I didn't mean to. But when you said, I'm not worried about success, I'm not as worried about success.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. I didn't ask for success. I asked for wonder.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ask for wonder. It just struck me because, wow. Isn't that what we all want? A little bit of that going on?

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. It's waking up and going, guess what we get to do today?

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

Do you know what I mean? That's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I do know what you mean. I feel so good.

[Rob Bell]

You celebrated all that, and it was thrilling and it was great, and you got to be a part of that. And it's overwhelming that your life could be this amazing.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Rob Bell]

But you still have to wake up today. And if you don't have a sense of. All right, let's see what this brings.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Then what is it? What are you doing? What are you doing? And that's what you want for people?

[Rob Bell]

Yeah.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the soul?

[Rob Bell]

It's the thing that keeps telling you there's more. There's more. There's more. This isn't just a meal. This isn't just a person. This isn't just an embrace. This isn't just an interview.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There's more.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah, there's more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your definition of God.

[Rob Bell]

Like a song you hear in another room and you think, boy, that sounds beautiful, but I only can hear a little bit. So you start opening doors and rearranging furniture because you have to get in that room to hear that song. When you get in, you find the knobs and you turn them all to the right because you're like, I gotta hear. And then you open the windows because you want the people in the next houses to hear it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's the difference between religion and spirituality? Or is there a difference?

[Rob Bell]

Well, you know, some say that religions, people don't want to go to hell. And spirituality, people who've been to hell already. Religion should be the structures, the prayer tables, the things that you do in the course. It should help you. It should cultivate. It should be the practices. It should be the. It should be the rituals that cultivate your sense that there's more.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What does prayer mean to you?

[Rob Bell]

Prayer to me is usually one word, which is, yes. Yes, I'm open. What's next? That's what it is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the lesson it's taken you.

[Rob Bell]

The longest to learn that there's nothing to prove. Cause you're young and you start out and you're like, da, da, look at me. I can work harder, I can work faster. I'm smarter. Look at me. Respect everybody, understand what I'm. And then later you realize there's nothing to prove anymore. All that's left to do is enjoy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you think happens when we die?

[Rob Bell]

I think there's a ton of oh. Cause there's all these people that have gone before you. And some people say, well, then you meet God. I think, yeah, but I never met my grandpa on my dad's side. So actually when I think of like dying, I think of, I'll get to meet Preston. That's actually what I think of first. I don't think of sort of gold and a throne and like a hello, Ra. Well done. You're strange. But I like you anyway. I don't think of that. I think of like my grandpa that I never met, to be honest. And like heritage and family, bloodline, all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Of them who came before you.

[Rob Bell]

Yeah. I somehow think of flesh and blood. I think of like, you think you're gonna see them people I've heard about? I do, actually.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And will they be in flesh and blood?

[Rob Bell]

Maybe at some point. We're known for our essence and whatever that looks like or feels like.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you know for sure.

[Rob Bell]

That you can say yes to this moment and experience a joy that can't be put into words that is actually possible. I know that for sure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The world needs. Finish that sentence.

[Rob Bell]

The world needs all of us to wake up. I believe that we're going to be fine. I really do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Heaven is.

[Rob Bell]

Here and now and then and there and at hand and among us and upon us and available and real.

[Oprah Winfrey]

God is.

[Rob Bell]

Oh, love. Let's stick to the. Stick to that one. God is love.

[Interviewer Assistant/Support]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

My favorite thing to do on Sunday morning is.

[Rob Bell]

My 13 year old son and I will often go surfing and we'll be sitting in the water and it's quiet. Sometimes a dolphin will go by and we'll talk. And it's perfect. Perfect. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[Rob Bell]

Oh, so wonderful.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We did it. I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

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[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

Honey, do not make plans. Saturday, September 13th.

[Rob Bell]

Okay?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why?

[Zepbound Medication Advertiser]

What's happening?

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

The Walmart Wellness Event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.

[Rob Bell]

All that at Walmart.

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart?

[Netflix Wednesday Show Promoter]

Check the calendar.

[Walmart Wellness Event Promoter]

Saturday, September 13th Walmart wellness event. You knew?

[Rob Bell]

I knew.

[Expedia Advertiser]

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