Super Soul Special: RuPaul Charles: We’re All In Drag

Summary

Summary of Oprah’s Super Soul: RuPaul Charles – “We’re All In Drag”

Podcast: Oprah’s Super Soul
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: RuPaul Charles
Episode Title: We’re All In Drag
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This intimate and lively conversation between Oprah and RuPaul explores the nature of identity, self-expression, spirituality, and the deeper lessons behind drag culture. RuPaul reflects on his path to stardom, his spiritual beliefs, and the power of authenticity. Together, they discuss how everyone, not just drag performers, wears a kind of “drag” every day and how embracing that awareness can lead to greater self-understanding, acceptance, and joy.

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Key Discussion Points

The Meaning of Drag and Identity

• “We’re All In Drag”

  • RuPaul’s iconic wisdom: “We’re all born naked and the rest is just drag.” (07:53)
  • Drag as a metaphor for the personas and roles everyone plays in life—not just gender or performance.
  • Oprah relates: “We're all in these kind of bodysuits, and you come up with these definitions and these ideas about who you really are...” (07:53)

• Clothes as Self-Definition

  • RuPaul shares that he owns a whole condo just for his wardrobe, illustrating clothing’s role in self-expression. (02:06)
  • Both reflect on keeping meaningful clothes as archives of identity and memory. (03:19)

• Shifting Perceptions with Clothing

  • RuPaul: “You can adjust how people interpret me in a suit; I can adjust how people interpret me in drag because the suit’s drag too.” (14:21)
  • Dressing is a conscious tool for navigating social treatment and self-view.

Universal Spirituality and Human Experience

• Spiritual Beings in Drag

  • Oprah quotes Pierre Teilhard de Chardin: “We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” (08:26)
  • RuPaul: “I got that as a kid… this is all kind of an illusion.” (08:28)
  • Both agree human life is a dense, challenging plane, but underneath is unity and a spiritual lesson. (20:04)

• God, Connection, and Not-Knowing

  • RuPaul: “People ask me, do I believe in God? …Sure. What is it? I don't know what it is. I don't need to know what it is.” (09:54)
  • Encounters and “coincidences” reaffirm his connection to something greater. (13:14)

Fame, Acceptance, and Therapy

• Quest for Validation and Love

  • “I’d started out just to get people to say, ‘RuPaul, I love you.’” (16:59)
  • Early fame was about filling a void; therapy and self-seeking revealed validation was an inside job. (17:39)
  • “Eventually, you learned that all the I love yous in the world don’t fill whatever it is you’re trying to fill.” – Oprah (17:23)

• Therapy and Self-Help

  • RuPaul credits years of therapy and self-help books with his growth: “I was always a seeker.” (19:01)

Lessons from Drag—and Life

• Challenges on Drag Race as Spiritual Lessons

  • RuPaul: “We challenge them to go beyond their own limited perception of themselves.” (20:31)
  • Main lesson: Willingness for personal reinvention is a spiritual rebirth.

• The Power of Laughter and Joy

  • RuPaul: “The most powerful spell you can cast [is laughter].” (23:53)
  • Joy is a choice—requires daily work: meditation, gratitude, physical activity. (23:15)

Cultural Impact

• Drag as a Mirror to Society

  • “Drag doesn’t hide who you are. Drag actually reveals who you are.” (36:51)
  • The show’s appeal: it’s a “new belief system” for a generation rejecting labels and seeking self-liberation. (29:16)

• Optimism and Cultural Evolution

  • Holding onto optimism is tiring but essential for change. Progress is not linear—evolution moves forward and backward. (42:04)

• Young People as Change-Makers

  • RuPaul finds hope in the next generation’s openness: they “don’t identify as gay or straight,” they're “smart” and “looking for a voice almost like a new belief system.” (29:16)

Notable Insights & Life Lessons

• Knowing Yourself

  • Most frequent advice: “Know thyself.” (46:01)
  • Life’s rules are simple, often learned in kindergarten: “Be nice to other people. Be nice to yourself.” (46:10)

• Moving Beyond Judgment

  • Even negative experiences are “part of it”; the goal is to “stay in kindness and in love.” (45:10, 48:59)

• Letting Go of Those Who Can’t Love You Back

  • Personal anecdote about his father: hardest life lesson is “let those people who are shut down, let them be.” (47:16)

• The Work of Living Joyfully

  • Daily choice to focus on joy, despite darkness always being present: “Choosing to stay in kindness and in love, that’s the biggest decision I have to make every day.” (48:59)

• Purpose and Experience

  • True purpose: to experience and enjoy life. “If I enjoy it, I could possibly share with other people how to do it, how to have fun.” (51:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• RuPaul’s Philosophy of Self:

  • “I’m everything and nothing at all.” (09:28, 15:45)
  • “We’re all born naked. The rest is just drag.” (07:53, 36:03)

• Oprah on Humanity’s Shared Experience:

  • “All this time you were fighting against… And you’re pushing against your own self.” (24:30)

• On Laughter and Lightness:

  • RuPaul: “The most powerful spell you can cast [is laughter].” (23:53)

• On Letting Go:

  • “Let those people who are shut down, let them be… you can pray, but that’s about it.” (47:16)

• Advice for a New Generation:

  • “First, be kind to yourself… It’s not something they have to learn, it’s something they have to remember.” (44:56)

• On Self-Discovery:

  • Oprah: “Your purpose is to be and to experience life…” (51:29)

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Timed Highlights

• 01:44: Oprah introduces and warmly greets RuPaul.
• 02:06 – 03:44: Fashion talk; RuPaul describes his wardrobe ritual and values.
• 05:16: Suit as a “trick” to navigate the world; social perceptions.
• 07:53: “We’re all born naked and the rest is drag”; the root of identity.
• 09:54: RuPaul discusses belief in God without need for definition.
• 13:14: Coincidences as reminders of life’s purpose.
• 14:21: Punk beginnings, “gender f-word drag,” and discovering power in transformation.
• 16:59 – 17:39: Vulnerability around seeking love and fame.
• 20:31: RuPaul’s show as a platform for challenging personal limits.
• 23:15 – 23:53: Laughter and daily joy as spiritual practice.
• 29:16: New generations view drag as spiritual, communal, and revolutionary.
• 36:03 – 36:51: Drag as revelation, not disguise.
• 44:56: Change and kindness start with self and example.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers the message that drag is a potent metaphor for the human journey of self-understanding, growth, and spiritual awakening. Through laughter, vulnerability, courage, and compassion, RuPaul and Oprah explore the relevance of drag far beyond entertainment—inviting all listeners to drop their masks, know themselves, and embrace joy on their own terms.

Top Takeaway:
“You’re born naked and the rest is drag.” (RuPaul, 36:03)
“Know thyself.” (RuPaul, 46:01)

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For anyone seeking inspiration, wisdom, or the courage to be themselves, this conversation is a vibrant guide to authenticity, resilience, and the transformative power of joy.

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Hello.

[RuPaul]

Hi, kiddo.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Hey, kiddo. How you doing? Good to see you again.

[RuPaul]

Good to see you again.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thanks for joining. Oh, I have those.

[RuPaul]

You do? Yeah. Red, navy and white.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh my God. You know, would be a wonderful thing to see is your closet. Would it, would it, would it thrill me?

[RuPaul]

It would, it would.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I bet it would just. Yeah, I bet it would give me like the all overs.

[RuPaul]

It's kind of crazy right now. I just finished production, so there's stuff, stuff all over the place. You know what happened? I have a. You know, I live here in LA and in New York, but I have a condo here that is specifically for my clothes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really? Yeah, it's a whole condo. Because I was going to ask you, how many square feet is your closet?

[RuPaul]

I have no idea. It. Well, I.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's an apartment.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, yeah, it's an apartment. But I have stuff at the house too. I have big. These big plastic crates with all the gowns in them. And then in New York I have a bunch of stuff.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So do you keep the gowns?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, it depends on what is being is usable now. What's already been used.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you know what you've used for everything. Yeah. Is it all archived and all that?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, yeah, of course. And actually some of the stuff, you know, there's a. The statute of limitations has run out on some of the gowns that I Wore on the VH1 show. I had a talk show 20 years ago, so. So some of those gowns, which I still have, I can wear them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Those are now considered vintage.

[RuPaul]

No, but you know, the kids who watch our show, they've never seen those before. Those before social media. So I can wear them again.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, after Jean Franco Ferray used to be my favorite designer.

[RuPaul]

I loved, loved, loved, loved that white crisp shirt. And that pant.

[Oprah Winfrey]

The pant. So gorgeous, so architectural. He was. And after he passed, I mean, I still have to this day, small, so I still have every single thing he ever designed for me personally, and every single thing I bought off the rack, I never have gotten rid of because nobody to this day has made a better white shirt. Wouldn't you agree?

[RuPaul]

No, you're absolutely right. But what do you do with your old stuff? I just keep everything. I don't.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, I have a whole place in Chicago where it's like archived and packaged and you could pull it up if I needed. I was never going to do that, but I certainly have it because some things I just. That was the hardest thing for me in the move from Chicago to here was the clothes, right. I could get rid of furniture, antiques, art, dah dah dah dah dah. Apartment, Forget about it, never have to see it again. But holding on to a Franco Fe skirt, honey, gotta have it.

[RuPaul]

I would see you in white turtlenecks and I always wondered, how were you able to get a white turtleneck over a. A face that's been made up?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, so you put the little netting thing over and then pull it over. Uh huh. You put the little netting, you know, the black girl bonnet over your head, over your face.

[RuPaul]

Do rag. Face, rag, face rag.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, face rag. So I have a funny story to tell you. I told, when I was telling Gayle I was going to be interviewing you for podcasts for Super Soul, she was on a plane with you. Do you remember that? She was. You all were on an early morning flight someplace and she said she was looking like Slumpa and Dinka, like trying to hide. Then she saw you get on the plane and she went, oh no, I'm going to have to pass him to get out. And so she said she came up to you, first of all, to marvel at how great you Looked at seven in the morning. She goes, I don't know how you're doing this at seven in the morning. And to apologize for looking the way she did. Do you remember this moment?

[RuPaul]

I do. I do. You know what the easiest thing for a man to do is to throw on a suit and a jacket and a shirt. You're done.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're done.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. And it's the easiest thing in the world to do, you know, and you look great. I always tell the kids I'm at work with, I say, if you wore a suit, you'd make more money.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really? And why do you say that?

[RuPaul]

Because it changes the way you move around and navigate this earth and how people interpret who you are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Exactly. Stedman was leaving home last night and was going back to Chicago, and he said, I'm going to put my suit pant on, my suit jacket. And I go, why are you doing that? Why were you just. He goes, people treat you different.

[RuPaul]

They do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They treat you different when you're wearing a suit jacket. He goes, they just treat you different.

[RuPaul]

And it's just funny, you know, you're on the planet long enough and you understand certain. I wouldn't call them tricks, but certain ways to navigate that help. That you just understand how things work.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, how things work.

[RuPaul]

You think and you go, you know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna work it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you believe the level? You know, it's like back in the 90s. I don't remember when. Supermodel. When was that out? 90.

[RuPaul]

92.

[Oprah Winfrey]

92. Okay. So you had that whole era, and now something happened in the zeitgeist that made your way of being and branding and identifying made it a cultural phenom at this particular time. Don't you think?

[RuPaul]

Oh, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That you've become this symbol that inspires not just, you know, young people, but so many people in the midst of their own questioning, their own pain, their own identity. Right. And so you must hear from so many, is that correct?

[RuPaul]

I hear from a lot of young people, from everyone. Everyone. It's not just gay or, you know, drag queen or any of that. It's just. It's pure people who not only dance to the beat of a different drummer, but who are super sensitive and sometimes too sensitive for this world because their hearts are so open and they've been beaten down so much that they see in what we're doing a place where it could be celebrated.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is there one particular story or person that stands out to you?

[RuPaul]

No. No. You know, it's the interesting thing is the stories are all the same. They're really all the same. And, you know, they're the story of the hero with a thousand faces. Who doesn't. Who isn't recognized by the world? And they're not recognizing themselves.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you know what is interesting? I knew that you were my kind of human when I first heard you say that. We're all born naked and. And the rest is just drag, because I have a different way of saying that. But I mean the same thing, that we're all in these kind of body suits, and you come up with these definitions and these ideas about who you really are, but we all are. My favorite quote, Pierre Tellyard de Chardin, who said, we are spiritual beings having a human experience.

[RuPaul]

It's exactly right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

And I got that as a kid, you know, I was a young kid, and I thought, is everybody getting that this is all kind of an illusion? And I couldn't get anybody to corroborate with me until.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you remember the first time you thought that, though?

[RuPaul]

I remember when my parents were in the living room going crazy, you know, beating each other up. I knew this can't be right. But, you know, when I was about 11 years old on PBS, I found my tribe in Monty Python's Flying circus. I thought, okay, they get it. Okay? They're irreverent. They're not taking anything seriously, and they're having fun. That's what this is all about. So that's when I got it very early. My sisters also, you know, we laughed. That was our sanctuary, was a place where we could, you know, find some peace.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So what would you say defined you today?

[RuPaul]

This moment? You know, I don't do that. I. The moon, the stars, the sun, you know, I'm everything and nothing at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love that. So you don't put yourself in any kind of box, any kind of label, any kind of.

[RuPaul]

None of them felt comfortable. None of them felt that that was the right fit, you know, like.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because why do you have to define yourself? You don't have to.

[RuPaul]

No, there's no need. That's why, you know, people ask me, do I believe in God? And I say, sure, sure. What is it? I don't know what it is. There's something there. I don't know what it is. I don't need to know what it is. I don't really care what it is. I know it's there, though. You know?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you feel connected to it?

[RuPaul]

Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There. There are moments when it's really strong and There are moments when in my life when it's been like, okay, what's going on here? You know, when you feel out of sync.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

But then, you know, I was driving to this, I had this pitch meeting and I was driving down the street and I my car, it was my trainer who I'd seen earlier today was just walking up the street. I was like, of all the people.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

Encounters.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, and it's those. Those coincidences that remind me that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Those coincidences that are not.

[RuPaul]

That are not.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

Just to remind me that you. You're absolutely where you're supposed to be right now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

When did you first know that going drag was a way of expressing and a way of being that would be meaningful to you and to other people?

[RuPaul]

You know, I am an opportunist and a show off, and I knew that show business would be my path. I didn't know how it would be, how it would work. But I didn't define myself, so I keep an open mind. Then I was in punk rock bands in Atlanta, Georgia, and drag sort of, sort of happened to us. It was never about sexual identity or anything. It was really, it was punk rock. And so when I did it for the band, the reaction I got from people was, whoa, whoa. And this was not like glamour drag. This was what we called.

[Oprah Winfrey]

This was not sashay, shantay.

[RuPaul]

No, no, no, no, no, no. This was what we call gender F word drag, which was combat boots and smeared lipstick. And, you know, it was a social comment. You know, this is the Reagan 80s and we're just making a social comment. But I knew that I had power in it because the reaction I got from people. The same way I can adjust how people interpret me in a suit, I can adjust how people interpret me in drag because the suit's drag too, you know, but that's when I understood I could do something with this. Whoa.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But for you, going drag really applies to all of us. It's whatever we put on after we get out of the shower. Right?

[RuPaul]

Absolutely. That's exactly right. And why not make it work for you? Why not make. If you have the power to control how people see you and interpret you, why not use it?

[Oprah Winfrey]

How do you flow between one and the other?

[RuPaul]

This is very easy. Are you getting paid or are you not getting paid?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, now. Yeah, that makes sense.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. No, no, no. And I've told people before, if I never did drag again, I'd be. Okay, fine. That drag.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, that drag. So she is not an alter ego or she is. No, nothing. No, it's just getting paid, not getting paid.

[RuPaul]

And again, back with the agenda. I don't. I'm everything and nothing at all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everything and nothing at all. Okay, tell me what getting that Emmy meant to you.

[RuPaul]

Well, it. Well, first of all, I've always. In this business, I've always worked outside. I've been a fringe artist. I've always been outside the system. So when the system comes and says, hey, we're digging what you're doing, that was great. Because of all the people I work with, for me, as a solo contract player, what the system thought of me was not really that important to me, because it couldn't be, because having worked outside the system for so long, if that was part of what I needed, I wouldn't have survived because they were not giving it to. They weren't giving it to me. So that wasn't part of what I was planning on. But because I work with a lot of people who work very hard within the system, it meant a lot.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, but what you started out to get. I'd read this. Tell me if it's true. You'd started out just to get people to say, RuPaul, I love you. Yeah. You were looking for I love you.

[RuPaul]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And the Emmy is, in many ways, a big oh, I love you.

[RuPaul]

It is, definitely. But, you know, I had passed RuPaul, I love you bit. After many years of therapy and many years in this business, why was that your particular goal? Well, that was the goal of a very young person who needed that and who didn't know exactly what it was that I really needed.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Eventually, you learned that all the I love yous in the world don't fill whatever it is you're trying to fill.

[RuPaul]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Exactly.

[RuPaul]

That's exactly right. And that's where all roads lead to that place. You know, and so when I made. When I made that declaration, that was. I was still in a place where I didn't know yet.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. You know, so you had to figure it out. How?

[RuPaul]

Well, you figure it out by hitting your head up against the wall really, really hard. And you're thinking, when you're sick and tired of being sick and tired, you really do find a solution. I realized early on I was a seeker. So I continued to seek, and I knew that the only place I could find that would feel. That God sized hole was with me.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And I had read too, that your quest for fame was to fill that emptiness inside that void. And the void came from.

[RuPaul]

The void came from knowing that there was something more. You know, I talked earlier about wanting to find my tribe, wanting to find other people who I could say, did you see that? Did you feel that? Most people are really not there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Disconnected.

[RuPaul]

So disconnected.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I say the people are the living walking dead every day.

[RuPaul]

I was at the stoplight yesterday and a woman was walking down the street, not looking at a phone. She was just contemplating her life, just walking. And I wanted to roll the window and I said, hey lady, I love you. You're here, you know. Cause you don't see that anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, everybody's doing this on their phone.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, it's crazy. So, you know, I was looking for a connection and that's what that was about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. You mentioned therapy. Years of therapy to get there.

[RuPaul]

Years of therapy to get there. But you know, I'm from San Diego and I grew up in the 70s with the whole self help thing. So I read. Even as a teenager I was reading all those self help books. I'm okay, you're okay. You know. Yeah, all of them. And I, you know, I think it's a California thing too. But you know, I was always a seeker, so.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you do talk and write a lot about your spiritual awareness. Where did that come from? Did you, did you have a moment of awakening or.

[RuPaul]

You know, my mother was very religious, but she was not into organized religion. She didn't go to church. She could quote the Bible, but, you know, it's like, it's like being a fish and wondering if water really exists. You know, I didn't have to become. Having a spiritual awakening. I am, I'm spiritual, Spiritual being. I'm a spiritual being. It just, I can feel it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Having a human experience.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you knew that as a kid.

[RuPaul]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. I'm surprised when people don't know it. I'm surprised when they're so disconnected that they don't realize, oh, there's really just one of us here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I'm not surprised because the level, I think that this, what I've concluded is that this whole human plane is dense. You know, there's a thickness, there's a thickness to the air that we breathe. There's a density that people can't seem to break through. But it's amazing that often on your show you seem to be giving, you know, spiritual advice. Really?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, yeah. These kids, you Know, we set up a situation on this competition reality show where we challenge them to go beyond their own limited perception of themselves. And these are all.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And that is the greatest spiritual teaching there is.

[RuPaul]

Absolutely. And these are all the things that in my career I've been able to do. They look up to me because I've been doing this for a long time. So we put them through these challenges, and it really. The real challenge is for them to be willing to die and become reborn through. Through these challenges. A lot of times, one kid, we had a comedy challenge, and she's like, well, I'm not funny. I'm not a comedy queen. I says, listen, what you do with your makeup, what you do when you're lip syncing, apply that to comedy. You've got it. She got out there funny, funny, funny. And, you know, that is true for everyone. Like I said, there's only one of us here on this planet. We. We are so. We are connected. We're just one thing. So if you can apply what you know really well in another area to this area which you think you may not know, you got something.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I think I heard you on some show talking about how we're ultimately expressing as God. So that's the. Ultimately that we're like God in drag.

[RuPaul]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's not really rocket science, but people.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But people, I don't know, people ready to hear that.

[RuPaul]

And listen, I didn't come up with any of this stuff. This is what I've learned to navigate and maintain an equilibrium on this dense plane. You know, I saw that kid, the Hollywood medium, and you know that we live in a lower frequency. The spirit world is a high frequency, and the mediums can, you know, go in between. And it's just an interesting concept to. You were talking about earlier, that density. It's an interesting concept to sort of break some of that up and to be a force on this planet to open that up. And I think we try to do that with our show.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I see you doing it in your life, too, because you feel like such a joyful human being. Joy is a high frequency. You talk a lot about being positive, and you have spoken about how just being negative is actually lazy. And positivity, as you know, too, is a higher frequency. It's reaching for the higher ground all the time. Are you always in the joy space?

[RuPaul]

No, I'm night and day, black and white.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have to work at it?

[RuPaul]

Absolutely. Every day I meditate, I stretch, I go to the gym. I have to, you know, when I'm saying those things out loud on the show. I'm actually saying them to myself, you know, and whenever I'm telling anyone, hey, kiddo. There's a scene in Witches of Eastwick where one of the characters falls off the banister and they say to her, jane, laugh, laugh, Jane, laugh. And she levitates off the ground. So. So I always try to remind people to. She doesn't hit the ground, she falls. She doesn't hit the ground, she levitates because of the laughter, which I think is the most powerful spell you can cast.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know one of the things that your show does is champions freedom of. Not just expression, freedom of lifestyle, just plain old freedom. What do you think is a new way that people on both sides of our current divide in our country can understand each other and see themselves in each other? How can we use what you're doing to help us see each other differently? Because I think that's one of the things that you've done with the show.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think the first you start with realizing that our biggest misconception is thinking that we're separate from one another.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I know. You know, I know you keep saying that we're all just one. I know what you mean by that, but I don't think people understand that at all. And I think, you know, in that last breath, I've talked to people who had near death. I think in that last breath that's going to be the biggest damn surprise to everybody. That all this time you were fighting against, pushing against, da da da da. And you're pushing against your own self. You didn't even see yourself as one. Yeah.

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[RuPaul]

That's unfortunate with being the last breath. But child, you better get in now. You better get in now girl.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, so what do you think we could do? How do we begin to see each other?

[RuPaul]

As you know, it starts here. It starts here. You know when I was in 10th grade, my 10th grade teacher told me he said RuPaul don't take life too effing seriously. And I didn't get it then, I got it later. I did not get it then. But I learned to first laugh, don't take everything so seriously. And then be kind, be kind, because there's only one of us here. When you are dissing someone else, you're actually dissing yourself. And you gotta realize that that has an effect on you. Everything that you put out, of course it is, comes back to you. I mean, this is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's my law, that's my religion, that's it. That what you're putting out is coming back.

[RuPaul]

That's what it is. I live by that. And you know, it seems so simplistic, but it's. Listen, a child cannot. Children do understand it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

They do actually, more so than people who are all sort of stuck in their own ways of being.

[RuPaul]

And you know, I didn't come up with any of this stuff. This is not, this is what I've learned to maintain on this.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But I think people hear it differently coming from you. I think you saying it reaches an audience might not hear it from someone else, another kind of philosopher. They're not reading, you know, Emerson or, you know.

[RuPaul]

Sure.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So of the others, why do you think drag is resonating so deeply with people, particularly at this moment in our culture?

[RuPaul]

You know, there's a new breed of young people out there. There's a new voice. We do a convention called DragCon here in LA and in New York. And the kids who come, they don't identify as gay or straight. They are smart and they are looking for a voice almost like, almost a new belief system that transcends the 20th century that is completely of the 21st century. So I think that they found our show with all these different platforms that you can watch television on your phone and all these places.

[Oprah Winfrey]

YouTube.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. Around the world. They watch it on our show on Netflix and stuff like that here. Of obviously see it's on terrestrial television, but I think our show speaks to that forward thinking voice, that emerging voice of young people who are looking for something. It's almost like a religion or a way of life. They see the kids on our show overcome not only their personal adversities, but the challenges with the other kids on the show. And they realize I can do that or they identify with the other kids on the show. A lot of times I'll be, I go walk around the workroom with and I ask the kids what they're doing in this challenge and I will, I'll break it Down. You know what? Listen, I do the same thing. What you're doing, like, one kid was. Was anxious. She was anxious. You know, I said, you're addicted to the anxiousness. You've got this. This challenge. You got this. You are addicted to being anxious. Now just, you know, ruminate on that for a minute. She came back later and said, that's it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That addicts you to the anxiousness.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I used to be late to places and I realized that I was addicted to the rush of going.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, boy.

[RuPaul]

Oh, shoot. Oh, shoot.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

When I let go of that addiction, I'll arrive 10 minutes early just to let bitches know who they working with. I will. I'll arrive sometimes 15 minutes early.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. Like, because Anna Winter, I think that she does that. She'll still call a meeting for noon and she'll be there waiting 11:45.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, my gosh. Everybody's like, thrown.

[RuPaul]

I love that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thrown. Honey, who are you? When you're at your best?

[RuPaul]

Oh, a sweetie pie, kind, forgiving. I don't know. If you drive around here, traffic in la, it brings out the worst in me. And when I can drive down Santa Monica Boulevard and I'm loving, that's when I'm up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Really?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, because, you know, I'm paying attention to everything. I'm looking at what people are doing. I'm looking at the woman crossing. I'm just that. I'm just that person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're that person.

[RuPaul]

I'm aware. And so when I see everyone, you know, they're braiding each other's hair and doing their taxes behind the wheel, careening down the street and they're, you know, barbecuing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Can you believe the people who are on their phones texting still? It's beyond on the freeway. I can't get over. What makes you think that you can do that?

[RuPaul]

Yeah, that's an interesting question. Because there's a part of the brain that. That we need to address and talk about this new emerging voice in the 21st century. We have to speak to that other side of the brain, the brain that says, you know, you still see people smoking cigarettes today, and you go, you know, we've been through this. Right? You know what this is. But what part of the brain says, yeah, go on, do it. We have to address that. And we don't address that in our culture. And I think that is the next level of our evolution is understanding who we really are and being able to see. You know, I meant earlier mentioned. I said, I'm night. I'M day, I'm black, I'm white, I'm male, female. Seeing both sides of yourself or all the sides of yourself. I'm sure there may be more shades is the next level what allowed you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To actually move past anybody's definition, expectation, past everybody's idea of who you should be and carve out a new path?

[RuPaul]

I think it's. First of all, I think it's who I am. But also my mother was very, very rebellious. She was the kind of person who said, you know, unless they paying your bills, you pay them B's no mind. And I believe that. And I'm a. I was a sweet, sensitive kid, so people would hurt my feelings. But you live on the planet long enough, you realize, baby, that had nothing to do with you, right? That's not yours.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's not even yours. That's what Maya Angelou used to say to me, baby, you're not even in it. You're not even in it. When they wrote the story, when they started the rumor, it wasn't even about you. That takes some time to get to learn.

[RuPaul]

It takes some time. You have to be here long enough to be able to get that. But if you're smart, you see the patterns. I love one of my. I love watching Murder, She Wrote.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, I heard that you go to sleep watching Angel Annsbury.

[RuPaul]

Yes, she's brilliant. But watching her this character, you know, deduce what really went down, she puts all the pieces together. And in life you have to do that, especially if you want to protect your heart. If you want to navigate this life, you have to be able to see, like we talked about, the different levels of consciousness, the lower frequency, high frequency. You've got to be able to move freely in all those frequencies.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you think we're becoming a more accepting society even where we are in this culture?

[RuPaul]

I think some are. I have a lot of hope with young people. I'm surprised people my age, older than me, who. Who have reverted back to an old way of thinking of like thinking that we could go back to, you know, Jim Crow or, you know, some of the things that people. That come out of people's mouth. I think, what is wrong with you? Weren't you there when we did that already? We've already done that. Yeah. Why are you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We've already shown that does not work.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, that doesn't work. And not only does it not work, what's really underneath the hood of that is your own self loathing. Yeah, that's what that's about.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, it's just that dense thing I was talking about. That's low frequency, people. That's a really low vibration. Really low. But what have you learned about how we define ourselves through watching and performing drag? Yeah, I bet you've learned a lot.

[RuPaul]

I have learned a lot. You know, at first, it just reiterates my initial statement, which is, you're born naked and the rest is drag. It what it teaches people is that none of this, all things are temporary. Everything is temporary. Just clothes in some paint, powder. You know, this body even is temporary. I'm going to take care of it as much as I can. But that's what it teaches. And also it teaches, you know what's funny is to see a straight man in drag. On our show, we do it, we have this thing where we have the girls put guys in drag, and what emerges is really phenomenal. You know, it's like watching, you know, you never know if somebody's gonna be a fun drunk or a mean drunk.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

Or fame is the same way. You know, if someone's gonna be. And when they get famous, are they gonna be a mean famous or a fun famous? Drag is the same way, really. It doesn't hide who you are. Drag actually reveals who you are.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I was gonna say that because that's exactly what fame does, you know? Yeah. If you're a jerk before you get famous, you just are a bigger, more intensified, under a microscope jerk. And if you're kind, that or gener, that's what also shows up. Do you get to, you know, drag is all about reinvention. Do you get to still experience different aspects of yourself when you doing in drag?

[RuPaul]

I do with the kids on our show. You know, I get to re experience some of the frustrations that I had through them trying to make it through the challenges. It reminds me, it awakens what it was like for me. And then I get to go ahead and tell them, hey, kiddo, this is what you're really going through. So I get to. I get to experience it through them. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But it doesn't reveal new facets of your personality. Not really new facets, no matter what gown you're wearing. No makeup, no gown, no dress, no nothing. No nothing that you could do it that would reveal another part of yourself?

[RuPaul]

I don't think so. I've been doing it for so long. No, no. You know, I think every day I'm on this planet, you know, it's not like time is real. It's like everything is happening at once right now. It doesn't feel like, so whatever I may have been frustrated with 20 years ago is still there. And it'll go, hey, Ru. Hey. And I'll go, thanks for sharing, but we're not doing that right now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. You know what do you think drag can teach regular folks about self expression?

[RuPaul]

Well, I think it could teach everyday people about colors and tones and different levels of consciousness of how you see yourself. I think it's important. I know for me to. When I meditate, I go outside of my body and I see, oh, look, that's me right there. Actually, even when I do drag, I'll see a picture and go, is that me? That's crazy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh my gosh. Still?

[RuPaul]

Really? Yes, yes, to this day. And I'll go, that's amazing. And what's even funny is when I. When I have the makeup put on, I'll see it and I'll go, oh, great. But when I see it on tv, I go, oh, I see what you did. I see how you match that with that. You know, that's another level of. Oh, you know. So I think for everyday people, drag can help you understand many different levels of what you are and what this body is and how amazing it is to have a human body.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I do think that too.

[RuPaul]

And what you could do with it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I do still marvel at it. I still marvel at how amazing it is to have a human body.

[RuPaul]

It is amazing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

And it's so fragile. It's so fragile. And that we're still here, you know, you hear things all the time. I heard something today of a friend had surgery. Da, da, da, da. And you think, oh, my goodness, I want to take care of it. I want to celebrate it. I want to dance. There's no place to dance, you know? I want to do what? I want to open a daytime disco in Palm Springs, one of those old huge banks. It would be open like from 11 o' clock in the morning to say 9. I can't stay up past 9 o'. Clock.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's surprising.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. I used to be the opposite. So you could come during the day at lunchtime, dance for 30 minutes to cool in the gang. Earth, Wind and Fire, Stevie Wonder. I want to dance. I want to. Like when you see kids and they're like three and four and they're just bouncing off the wall like, look what I can do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[RuPaul]

I want to relive that. I want to do that and I'd like to do that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think you're right. There's not enough dancing in the world.

[RuPaul]

Not enough dancing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What's the key to perfectly executed drag?

[RuPaul]

It's a sense of humor. It's as simple as that. Like I said, there are different styles, different genres. I started with gender F word drag, and then I did my soul trained dancer look, which I loved. You know, I landed on Glamazon because that's what. But pays the mortgage. But I think the most fun drag is the Soul train dancer drag, where it's, you know, it's. Hi, hi.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[RuPaul]

So much fun. But, you know, I don't get to do that very well. I don't get to do that at all anymore. Once I got famous, it became, you know, it was a job. Yeah, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. When you talk, you're an optimist. But has it been an uphill battle to stay optimistic these days?

[RuPaul]

It is an up. I'm tired, I'm exhausted by it, and I'm doing my part. But it is exhausting being an optimist because you think. You think that people. I thought we were further along as humans on this planet, and you think, wait, what did I just imagine? That we were moving forward. I thought that we were further along. So it is exhausting.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And sometimes, you know, the mistake that we all made, you and me and people like the mistake that we made, because the truth is we are. I believe, in a regressive. We've taken step steps backwards, but the mistake is that we always thought that civilization evolving moved in a straight line. It does not. It does not. You move forward, then you take a couple steps backwards, then you're in the dark ages, then you come out, then you go, yes, that's the problem. We had a greater expectation for what we as humans could be and do.

[RuPaul]

And I blame John Kennedy for that. I blame John F. Kennedy for that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[RuPaul]

How? Well, you know, I have two older sisters who are seven years old, older than me. They were my world. They were my goddesses. And they told me when I was a kid, they said, rue, the people in charge now are making it so that one day everyone on this planet will have eight pairs of shoes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Your sister saw you that, and I loved that.

[RuPaul]

I thought, wow, that's where we. That's where we're going.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We're moving. We're going to the world where everybody's gonna have eight. Eight pairs of shoes.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. And I believed them. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna be a part of this. How can I. How can I help? Yeah. Unfortunately, not so true. You see things on the. You think, what? Why? What's going on? You know, yes, it's crazy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you think young people will bring about a change? I know that you talk about mobilizing young people to make social change. What does that mobilization look like?

[RuPaul]

We show them through example. You know, I don't have children of my own, but I do know that children learn by. They learn from their parents in ways that the parents don't know about. It's just watching them. Watching them how they sip water or what they do with their garbage or how they react to nudity or what someone says, all those things. So it's an inside job. And we all have to. We have to pitch in on how we behave. And I think that's the key. We have to show them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We have to show them. What do you think the next generation needs to do to make real change?

[RuPaul]

Actually, I think all the things we talked about, I think it's. First, be kind to yourself and remember, because we all know this. You know, this is not something they have to learn. It's something they have to remember.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We all know, because that's what an aha moment is, is the remembering of what you already knew.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. So we have to remind them who they really are, and they are God. Having a human spiritual experience on this planet, being human. So. And even having said that, you realize, too, that even. Even the horrible things, the unspeakable things are a part of it. If you take out judgment, even the horrible things are a part of it. I don't want to be a part of those things. I want to be on the side of the lightness. But you know what I'm saying by that. So we have to show them. We have to remind them what is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Advice you give to. I know you're such a big mentor for LGBTQ kids, so what is the advice you find yourself giving to them the most often? Know thyself, know thyself.

[RuPaul]

Okay, yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, that's for everybody.

[RuPaul]

Yes, for everybody. It's not rocket science, Oprah. You know, the fundamental.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It's so simple.

[RuPaul]

It's so simple. The fundamental rules of life, the life lessons that will help you navigate are very simple. We learn them in kindergarten. Be nice to other people. Be nice to yourself. You know, know thyself, know. You know, even that me understanding about my addiction to being late just really like Jessica Fletcher on Murders wrote deducing. Okay, what are the elements here? You know, because I don't want to be late. I'm saying. Ah, there it is. It's right there. Take that out. Everything's changed. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I did this With a friend once I said, you're addicted to chaos. You love it, and you love drawing other people into it and la, la. And once you figure that out, you can begin to move forward. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm addicted.

[RuPaul]

Did they change?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, it actually did. It took a while, but, yeah, because for a lot of people, they're not like you, like, instant. Oh, that's what it is. I'm addicted to being late. And you can change that. It takes a long time for the realization. I want to know, what's the lesson that took you the longest to learn?

[RuPaul]

That's a good question. You know, I grew up with my father, who psychic once told me that he and I had shared past lives together. And that when I appeared in this life, I was like, hey, buddy, here we are again. We're gonna rule the school. And he could not see me. He was shut down. Shut down. And I said, okay, well, you want joy? I can give you some joy. Oh, you want to laugh? I got it. Want to dance? You know, this whole thing. And I, for years, was attracted to people who were shut down like that. And I felt my job was to. Okay, what do you need? I got it for you. I got it. Let me remind you who you are. The hardest lesson for me to learn in this life has been to let them. My father, he couldn't. He couldn't have seen me because it would have forced him if he saw me, would have forced him to get in touch with his feelings, which were really heavy and really painful. And I understand that now. Back then, it really hurt my heart. But that was the hardest lesson I've learned, is that let those people who are shut down, let them be. You know, like, you go to a puppy that's come from an abusive place and you go to pet it, and it goes. And you go, what can I do? It's like, well, you can pray, but that's about it. That's about it. Let him go and figure it out. It sounds harsh.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What has been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill your destiny?

[RuPaul]

Well, my destiny, I don't think my destiny's really happened because. Yet. But the choice, it's in process. It's in process. The most difficult choice I have to make is every day, which is choosing to be engaged, choosing to not succumb to the darkness because I have it there. It's always there in my peripheral vision. And choosing to stay in kindness and in love, that's the biggest decision I have to make every day, you know, but you Asked me what have I had to. What sacrifice I had to make to get where I am today?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. What's been the most difficult choice you had to make to fulfill where you are today?

[RuPaul]

I think it has to do with spending so much time alone. You know, I am married and my husband has a huge. It's a 60,000 acre ranch and he and I do very well on our own. You know, he spends a lot. I'll see him later today. But we spend a lot of time alone. And I think to do this work, to do something really amazing, you have to spend a lot of time alone. I think that's the biggest sacrifice. I. I don't know how much of a sacrifice is because I really don't like being around a lot of people. You know, they get me nervous. I can fake it for a good long time of. Hi, how you doing? Great. Heard any good jokes lately? You know, but I'm really. I'm really. Introvert masquerading as an extrovert.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is a big surprise, really, though, to a lot of people. But not to me.

[RuPaul]

Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Cause so am I. Because so am I. I mean, I have. I think there's a name for it. I mean, I'm an introvert with extrovert qualities. You know, where I can be on. But I am really most content, happiest, most at myself, alone or in front of a large audience.

[RuPaul]

Yeah, the being around people, though, it does wear my battery down. I can do it. I can do it for a good long time.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What do you think your true purpose on earth is?

[RuPaul]

I think it first starts with me, for me to experience this life and to enjoy it. And I think if I enjoy it, I could possibly share with other people how to do it, how to have fun.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's one of the best answers I've heard, you know, because so many people think, and I've done so many, you know, conversations, seminars, where people are like, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? Your purpose is to be and to experience life just as you're saying. And then if out of that experience you choose to do something else, that's also okay. But you're here on this planet because you're supposed to experience this planet in its fullness. Agree. And that the truest expression of yourself is what we're all actually seeking.

[RuPaul]

Absolutely.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

[RuPaul]

Yeah. Because again, there's only one of us here.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Only one of us here. When you look in the mirror, what do you see?

[RuPaul]

Freckles. You know, it's interesting. You know, I've spent so much time, you know, putting on makeup and using my body for a living. And so, you know, initially I look at it as part of my work. But then when I look at the mirror with my heart, I still see that little boy who loved to dance. You know, there's that song, that Stevie Wonder from Hotter Than July. I think it's called Like I Do or something where it talks about little baby brother used to dance. And it ends with him breaking a lamp and says, oh, you done broke mama's lamp. You know that song?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes, yes.

[RuPaul]

I'm that kid. I love to dance. I love to laugh. Those are my two favorite things to do on this planet. I laugh a lot. Don't get to dance as much as I want to.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when you look in that mirror, you see a person who fills that fill in the blank.

[RuPaul]

I see a person who is a seeker. I see a person who is looking for some joy, some laughs. I like. I like the lighter things of life. I like the music and the colors and the smells. And I like love. I like those things. And I like to stay away from the dark stuff. It's there, but I tend to go to the light side.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Would you say you are at one of the best places for yourself? Have you reached the best place for yourself?

[RuPaul]

I think so. Right now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Right now.

[RuPaul]

It's a really good time. It's the best of times, it's the worst of times. But it's a good place. It's a good place. And again, I'm paying attention to everything, but I am focusing on the joy.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[RuPaul]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I loved it.

[RuPaul]

Good.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thank you.

[RuPaul]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That was perfect.

[RuPaul]

Good, good, perfect.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Sou on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Commercial Narrator]

Prices keep going up. These days it feels like being on an elevator that only goes up.

[RuPaul]

Going up. Oh, no.

[Commercial Narrator]

But not at Metro.

We're pushing the down button. Going down, we've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40, period. That's 20% lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number. Only at Metro.

Five year guarantee on eligible plans exclusion supply. See website for details. Not available. Fab Metro with T Mobile in the.

Past six months tax supplies.

[RuPaul]

Honey, do not make plans. Saturday, September 13th. Okay.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Why?

[Commercial Narrator]

What's happening?

[RuPaul]

The Walmart Wellness event. Flu shots, health screenings, free samples from those brands you like.

[Oprah Winfrey]

All that at Walmart?

[RuPaul]

We can just walk right in, no appointment needed. Who knew we could cover our health and wellness needs at Walmart?

[Commercial Narrator]

Check the calendar. Saturday, September 13th.

[RuPaul]

Walmart wellness event. You knew?

[Commercial Narrator]

I knew.

Check in on your health at the same place you already shop.

Visit Walmart, Saturday, September 13th, for our semiannual wellness event.

Flu shot.

Subject to availability and applicable state law.

Age restrictions apply. Free samples while supplies. Last year.