Super Soul Special: Thomas Moore: A Religion of One's Own

Summary

Oprah’s Super Soul Special: Thomas Moore – “A Religion of One’s Own”

Podcast: Oprah’s Super Soul
Host: Oprah Winfrey
Guest: Thomas Moore (Author, Former Monk, Psychotherapist)
Episode Date: September 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Super Soul centers on Thomas Moore’s philosophy from his book, A Religion of One’s Own. Moore and Oprah explore redefining religion as a deeply personal and evolving practice, rooted not in dogma but in direct, individual experience, wonder, and openness to multiple spiritual traditions. The conversation offers a compassionate, hopeful look at how creating an individualized sense of the sacred can enrich lives, heal wounds, foster love, and connect us to deeper meaning—regardless of background or current beliefs.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Redefining Religion as a Personal Journey

[02:52–04:24]

• Active Engagement: Moore asserts that religion should move beyond passive participation in organized traditions. People should actively sculpt their spiritual lives, drawing from multiple sources of wisdom:
  • “You can be a member of a church...and you can take wisdom and inspiration from any other spiritual tradition...I think today we ought to be doing [that].” — Thomas Moore [02:52]
• Inclusivity Over Exclusivity: Both Moore and Oprah clarify that creating “a religion of one’s own” is not anti-religion—it’s about personalizing, deepening, and reinvigorating spiritual practice while remaining open to all sources of wisdom.

2. The Distinction Between Religion and Spirituality

[05:36–06:43]

• Moore sees little practical difference but prefers “religion” for its roots in rich traditions:
  • “I like to use the word religion because it ties us back to the religions of the past. They have so much to offer us. I don’t want to be free of them.” — Thomas Moore [05:43]
• Moore draws from Christianity, Taoism, Zen Buddhism, Judaism, and Greek traditions.
• Oprah echoes that the book is for both the religious and “spiritual-but-not-religious.”

3. Moving Beyond Traditional Constructs of God

[09:24–11:54]

• Moore distinguishes between the infinite, mysterious nature of the divine and the tendency to reduce “God” to human terms:
  • “If you make God...into a human version...you don’t have a God anymore. You have a superhuman being, but you don’t have a real sense of the divine.” — Thomas Moore [09:43]
  • Moore often avoids the word “God” because most use it in a “very limited...not infinite, mysterious, unknowable” sense [11:11].
• Both agree that true spirituality involves reaching for that which is truly infinite and unknowable.

4. Nature and Wonder as Entrances to the Sacred

[14:58–16:41]

• Getting started: Begin by reconnecting with nature; looking up at the night sky can awaken profound awe and wonder:
  • “Go outside at night...look up into the dark sky and...notice what wonder means. That is the beginning of the religious feeling.” — Thomas Moore [15:04]
• Oprah emphasizes how rarely we look up, especially in cities, and how renewing that can be.

5. The Role of Suffering, Illness, and Death in Spiritual Awakening

[16:46–19:51]

• Suffering and crisis often precipitate spiritual awareness:
  • “Illness and trouble in life...can wake up your very natural religious impulse.” — Thomas Moore [16:46]
  • Awareness of mortality, whether through personal crisis or the loss of loved ones, acts as a call to conscious living.
• Oprah: “All death [exists] to get us to look at our lives...it’s an ultimate wake up call.” [17:49]
• Moore: Hospital patients often reflect that sickness has ‘healed them’ by forcing deep introspection and focus on what matters.

6. A Religious Revolution & Hope for a New Era

[19:51–22:44]

• With declining traditional religious affiliation, especially among millennials, Moore is optimistic:
  • “That gives me hope because we’re alive...we’re shedding something...because we are growing up.” — Thomas Moore [20:31]
• Both agree this is an opportunity to create more accepting, loving, individualized spiritual lives.

7. Dreams, the Soul, and Returning “Home”

[24:18–27:51]

• Moore’s practice as a psychotherapist informs his view that dreams are windows to essential identity and the spiritual home:
  • “Your spiritual self was born in a dream. And when you dream, you are returning home.” — Oprah, quoting Moore [22:44]
  • “Dreams are the language of the soul...if you look at them with some regularity, you begin to live from that deeper place.” — Thomas Moore [27:51]
• Practical tip: Record dreams immediately upon waking to remember and learn from them [28:21].

8. Soul vs. Spirit: Definitions and Significance

[32:52–35:55]

• Moore distinguishes:
  • Spirit: Seeks transcendence, improvement, the new.
  • Soul: Needs home, attachment, connection to the ordinary and familiar.
  • “Soul loves to be attached...Spirit likes to be detached.” — Thomas Moore [35:34–35:55]
• Everyday experiences become “religion” when we appreciate and fully enter them.

9. Living One’s Religion Through Work and Service

[37:33–40:52]

• Meaningful work aligns with personal religion:
  • “Having this conversation. This is my work. Can you believe it?” — Oprah [37:46]
  • “It’s not only your work, but it’s part of your religion.” — Thomas Moore [37:52]
• Service to others is key:
  • “The best solution [to feeling lost or dissatisfied] is some sort of service.” — Thomas Moore [39:57]
  • “To brighten someone else’s day brightens my day.” — Oprah [40:37]

10. Wisdom, Love, and Facing the World’s Wounds

[38:15–41:01]

• Moore sees suffering children as “the world’s greatest wound.”
• The capacity for love is essential and often underused; loving openly heals ourselves and the world.

11. Faith, the Beyond, and Coming Home

[41:25–42:31]

• Moore expresses gentle faith in life after death and an eternal quality in each person.
• He describes feeling he is “no longer a seeker” because he has found home in his own spiritual path:
  • “I just feel like I’ve come home.” — Thomas Moore [42:25]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Religion’s Necessity:
  “Personal religion is a requirement. It is the indispensable foundation of an intelligent, open-hearted approach to life.” — Oprah, quoting Moore [04:58]

• On Creating God:
  “If you make God...a human being kind of God, you’ve diminished the whole. You don’t have a God anymore. You have a superhuman being, but you don’t have a real sense of the divine.” — Thomas Moore [09:43]

• On Nature and Wonder:
  “That is the beginning of the religious feeling, I think.” — Thomas Moore [15:04]

• On the Spiritual and the Soul:
  “Dreams are the windows and doorways to that essential identity without which we feel lost and wandering.” — Thomas Moore [27:26]

• On Service:
  “If I ever feel...I need to make my life more satisfying...the best solution is some sort of service.” — Thomas Moore [39:57]

• On Coming Home:
  “I just feel like I’ve come home—to a religion of your own?” — Oprah & Thomas Moore [42:24–42:28]

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Major Segment Timestamps

• Introduction/Thomas Moore’s background: [01:20–02:52]
• Defining “A Religion of One’s Own”: [02:52–04:07]
• Religion vs Spirituality: [05:36–06:43]
• Traditional beliefs vs Infinite Divine: [09:24–11:54]
• Nature, wonder, and starting a spiritual path: [14:58–16:41]
• Suffering, illness, and awakening: [16:46–19:51]
• Current religious revolution & hope: [19:51–22:44]
• Dreams, soul’s language: [24:18–27:51]
• Remembering and working with dreams: [28:21–29:25]
• Soul vs Spirit distinction: [32:52–35:55]
• Finding religion in work and service: [37:33–40:52]
• Love and the world’s wounds: [38:15–41:01]
• Life after death & coming home: [41:25–42:31]
• Ending/Acknowledgments: [42:31–42:46]

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Final Takeaways

• A Religion of One’s Own offers a path for spiritual growth that is deeply personal, creative, and rooted in both ancient wisdom and direct experience.
• Moore and Oprah urge listeners to embrace awe, nurture their dreams, serve others, love more openly, and find their own evolving connection to the sacred.
• In a time where many question or leave traditional religious paths, Moore offers hope that this is not a loss, but an opportunity:
  • “We’re not losing God. We are finally gaining God.” — Thomas Moore [22:35]

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This conversation is filled with practical guidance and inspiration for anyone seeking to live more deeply, love more fully, and create a spiritual path that feels like home.

Transcript

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[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Thomas Moore has been a lifelong spiritual seeker and teacher. He spent 13 years as a Catholic monk, then went on to earn a PhD in religious studies. I first met him in 1994 when we talked about his book that became a staple on my nightstand, the groundbreaking bestseller Care of the Soul. Thomas Moore has now written 16 books. After decades of intense religious study, he has come to believe that each of us can craft our own religion, one that connects us to our unique spiritual core. We do that, he says, not by abandoning traditional religion, but by opening ourselves up to all faiths and traditions. I'm so excited about this book, A Religion of One's Own. And what's shocking to me about it is that you spent so much time studying religion and being a part of organized religion and religious practices and that now you write a book called A Religion of One's Own. What does that really mean? Before everybody starts criticizing, let's hear what it really means.

[Thomas Moore]

So what I mean by religion of One's Own could be for someone who is part of a religion to stop being passive and just taking what comes and be active and take the initiative and make this thing Your own and bring other pieces into the picture. So today I think one of the biggest things is that you can be a member of a church, let's say, and you can take wisdom and insight and inspiration from any other spiritual tradition. And that's perfectly not only okay, but it's something I think today we ought to be doing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What I want to make clear is, and what I got from reading A Religion of One's Own is whether you are in an organized religion or are what a lot of people like a third of the country now refer to themselves as. I'm spiritual but not religious. That this really what you espouse in this book is making your religious, spiritual practice more personalized and therefore intensified. So wherever you are on the spectrum, a religion of one's own is about taking it and making it yours.

[Thomas Moore]

That's right. I think religion is something that is quite natural. It's something that we do as human beings. We face mysteries. Illness is a great mystery. Death is a mystery, Marriage is a mystery. All these things. And I don't think we can deal with all this rationally.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Thomas Moore]

And so we need something. On the other hand, we've made a turn somewhere, I think largely because of changes in our culture. And the old forms don't work as well anymore. They work for some people, but even then you have to reinvigorate them.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You're saying that there is a need to look at where we are in our culture with religion and to think about it differently.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes, think about it differently. Make it more real and more. When I say personal, I mean it's something then that you are really engaged with. You don't just go through the motions.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So just to be clear, you're not anti religion. Here's what you write in this beautiful new book. The disappearance of religious feeling goes hand in hand with the loss of soul. Because at its best, religion speaks to the soul and feeds it. Traditional religion may well need an overall. From top to bottom, you say, but personal religion is a requirement. It is the indispensable foundation of an intelligent, open hearted approach to life. And that is what this book is all about.

[Thomas Moore]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the difference as you see it, between religion and spirituality? Big question.

[Thomas Moore]

That's a big one. A lot of people wonder about that. You know, I think I'd like to see religion as something, even the word religion, to mean something that is very personal and very real and alive in you. So there's a very, very slight difference between spirituality and religion, in my view. I like to Use the word religion because it ties us back to the religions of the past. They have so much to offer us. I don't want to get. I don't want to be free of them. I read the Tao Te Ching about every month, I think. Really? Yeah. I mean, it's my guide in so many ways. Zen Buddhism has really affected me profoundly. I have rabbis who are my counselors. I've studied Greek religion very intensely. So all of that is there now. I know everybody's not going to do all that, but we can all take things from these traditions. The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented. We've got it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Thomas More felt called to religion at such a young age. He was only 13 when he left his family in Detroit, moved to Illinois to live as a Catholic monk, and his family let him do it. Then, after 13 years in the monastery and just months before becoming an ordained priest, he walked away. What actually is a monk's life generally.

[Thomas Moore]

What it was during all that time, even when I was very young, it was a life of maybe an hour of meditating every day, sometimes an hour and a half. As I got further on, there was chanting, that kind of thing, chanting psalms, which is part of the life of the monk. We were taught that everything we did was a prayer that was spiritual. So if we were out working in the garden, that was part of our being a monk. And if we were studying, that was a big part to study was an important part of being a monk.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. So you say now that creating a religion of our own really is a necessary step in our spiritual unfolding. And by that, do you mean that we can actually go, by creating a religion of our own, go beyond religion in a way?

[Thomas Moore]

Certainly. Go beyond religion as we've known it? Yes, certainly. I think we're at a turning point. It's almost like an evolutionary turning point. We're at a point where the past has been. Let's find someone to tell us what to believe and what to do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That was the past.

[Thomas Moore]

That's the past. No, we have to still be spiritual and religious in a sense, but we have to do it ourselves and take it on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So creating a religion of your own. I know a lot of people will be critical of this, and you even mention it in the book that people call this sort of like smorgasbord religion. You're taking a little bit from this, a little bit from that, and a little bit from that. And where is the order? Where is the discipline? Where is the one true God in.

[Thomas Moore]

All of That I agree that if you're just going to go around and take a little bit of this, a little bit of that from the various traditions, you don't have much, but you can take a lot from each one or you can take what really appeals to you and what is of interest to you and valuable to you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay, you know what I think the main criticism of the book is? And I mean, that's what this whole show and this platform is about, is opening people to new ways of seeing themselves in what we call God. I think, though, when we speak of creating religion, one's own people think that that also means creating a God of one's own.

[Thomas Moore]

Well, I put it this way, when I was studying theology and religion all those years as a monk, I learned that God is unknowable and infinite. Unknowable and infinite. That's what I was always taught.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Unknowable and infinite and infinite.

[Thomas Moore]

Now, what have you got there?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Oh, I love that.

[Thomas Moore]

So if you make God, then I say into sort of a human version, a human being kind of God, you anthropomorphize him, they say, or make him human, like a human being. You've diminished the whole. You don't have a God anymore. You have a superhuman being, but you don't have a God. You don't have a real sense of the divine.

[Oprah Winfrey]

But what about the passages in the Bible and other religious books that say we are created in his image?

[Thomas Moore]

Well, we are. I think that we have within us, if we go deep enough inside ourselves, we touch on the infinite. We really do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is true. I think you can't emphasize that enough because I think most people never go deep enough to understand what that means, that we are in his image. Because people are thinking that it's the physical thing and it is not.

[Thomas Moore]

Here's a big issue. I think the world we live in around us tends to see everything mechanistically or physically, all alone. They don't understand that there is some invisible dimension to our experience, to everything, even to nature. And so we tend to reduce things too much.

[Oprah Winfrey]

We reduce things to what we can.

[Thomas Moore]

See, what you can see and touch.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And define things, even our God, by what we could see, by what we can see and touch.

[Thomas Moore]

It's a terrible limitation. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say in a religion of one's own, you don't even like using the word God.

[Thomas Moore]

No, no.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And the reason is because most of.

[Thomas Moore]

The time when I hear the word God, it's very limited. It's not this infinite, mysterious, unknowable unknowable factor. I might want to use it. My daughter was hurt once and I just prayed to God without any thought. My theology went out the window. I just wanted to pray for her and pray to God. I will use the name God when I have that urge to pray, certainly. But when I'm talking about these things, what I try to do in my books, I try to evoke that unknowable and the infinite in my writing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, and you do?

[Thomas Moore]

Yeah, I try to evoke it. And as I say, if I kept using the word God, I don't think I'd be able to do it because.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Everybody comes with their own idea of what that is.

[Thomas Moore]

That's right.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. For me, it's the God I learned in Sunday school.

[Thomas Moore]

Usually that's where it goes back to. It goes back to childhood.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Goes back to childhood if you're an.

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[Thomas Moore]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

So how does one actually begin this what appears to be a daunting task of creating a religion of one's own? First, I'd say read the book. It's so interesting and inspiring at first, I'd say that. But how does one begin?

[Thomas Moore]

I think the easiest place to begin is nature. Actually, this has been said.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I so agree with you.

[Thomas Moore]

You know, it's been said for centuries that if you start with nature, I would suggest if someone doesn't know even then what to do, I'd say go outside at night where there are no lights and just look up into the dark sky and look at what's going on up there and notice what you feel. Notice what's happening to you as you look and notice where your thoughts go and discover what wonder means. That you begin to feel wonder. That is the beginning of the religious feeling, I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And you're right, the sense of wonder that comes. You cannot look up without a sense of awe and wonder. And you talk about that a lot in a religion of one's own. Just going outside, period. And I've started doing that more since reading about just looking up at the sky because, you know, how little we all look up. We rarely look up. We're just kind of on our way doing our. You rarely, particularly people who live in cities, you rarely do that.

[Thomas Moore]

You know that's right. And you have to see too, that wonder is more important than, than some doctrine, some teaching that you have to be very precise about. That's very mental. A sense of wonder is really the basis of the religious feeling, the religious spirit.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. And isn't it just. And you know what I try to think about all the time? Wow. I'm a part of all of this and I don't even understand all of this, but the fact that I get to be a part of all of this. Exactly, yeah. So that's where it begins.

[Thomas Moore]

That's where it begins. I think that's where it begins.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Okay.

[Thomas Moore]

That's pretty simple, isn't it?

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's pretty simple.

[Thomas Moore]

Well, there's another side that I think is also pretty interesting. This is the darker side. There's a darker side. So I think we find religion when we're sick, when we find we have a sickness, maybe really serious or not so serious, or when you're in trouble in life, you know, like trouble in a job or trouble with a marriage or with children or something. That's also a time when we begin to direct our attention because you become conscious. Illness and trouble in life, it's like the impetus to become awake. It's an awakening. So your response to that kind of trouble or to illness, whatever it is, your response to it can wake up your very natural religious impulse. So then you begin to wonder too. You begin to wonder, well, why me? Why is this happening to me? And where will it go? Oh yeah, I'm not going to be around here forever. Those questions are also the basis of a religious life for yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And isn't all death supposed to get us to look at our lives? Isn't it just a reminder to, to reinforce that you need to get on with it, you need to awaken.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes. That's a very, very complex, deep thing you're saying there. Because what you're saying is that there's something about dying and death that prompts us to live. It works both ways. So you find out that your friend has died.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Thomas Moore]

And you suddenly. Wow, you really begin to think about what it means to be alive. Correct. And what are you going to do with your life?

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's exactly right.

[Thomas Moore]

And how much time do you have left?

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Thomas Moore]

All those things, all that stimulus to wonder. Again, a deep, maybe even a disturbing wonder can be the basis of a spiritual awakening.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes. And I would think that at many a funeral or ceremony, when people are shedding tears, they're shedding tears, obviously, for the people who are lying there in the casket and many times for themselves. And it is the ultimate wake up call, becomes the ultimate wake up call.

[Thomas Moore]

You know, I visit hospitals quite often. I've done some work with medicine. And the one thing that's constant is that people who are really sick, I mean, really in bad shape in the hospitals very frequently say to me, they say that their sickness has healed them, like being sick. They're lying there and they're sick, and they have all this time to meditate. It doesn't look like they're meditating, but there's a lot of reflection going on, a lot of meditating going on in hospitals. And people are realizing what's important to them, like what's important in life. Those are all the questions also that you get kind of stirred up. And that can be the basis of a more intensified religious attitude.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, the reason why I appreciate what you've written here is because I think that what you're saying in a religion of one's own offers an opportunity and a pathway to wake up before you're lying in a hospital room.

[Thomas Moore]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. Before you're lying, before you have the illness, before you have the disaster, before you lose your job, lose your child, lose your home. It's an opportunity to awaken and see another way of being with yourself, with your spiritual practice, whatever you choose for that to be, but to give order and respect to that which is the spiritual side of you. According to a recent Pew study, the number of Americans who call themselves Christians is dropping. One third of millennials don't identify with any faith. They say, are we in the midst of a religious revolution?

[Thomas Moore]

Yes, we are definitely in the midst of a river. Look at those figures. That's incredible. But see, I look at it and I see. I'm hopeful. That gives me hope because we're alive. You know, there's something Freud called it the death principle, deadly to be always doing what we've done before. Now we have an opportunity. We're shedding something that was precious, but we're shedding it because we are growing up.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I think we're getting there. One of the reasons I think the book is necessary for people, because I think a lot of these millennials don't assign themselves to any faith, are sort of searching or looking for a way. And this helps you bring some kind of order and order of thinking to it, because they are seeking another way or seeking a way, seeking a way to that which we know, which we see and feel and yearn for.

[Thomas Moore]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And understand is deeper and greater than ourselves. And we're seeking a way to it that doesn't punish us or make us wrong or Bad because of where we come from or because of our gender or race or people are looking or whatever. They're looking for a religion that is accepting and loving and is a part of them.

[Thomas Moore]

Can you imagine that? We haven't had that in our history. We haven't had enough religion. We've had some good religion, but a lot of bad religion. Now we have an opportunity to do it differently.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And what you're saying is that this is a good thing, that we're at this crossroads in our.

[Thomas Moore]

I do.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. That it's a hopeful time. It's our chance.

[Thomas Moore]

It's our chance to be creative with this thing that has really kind of gotten tired.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. It's our chance to. I just had a thought there to kick into the next gear. Truly evolve, not lose God, but make that which is all, which is infinite and unknowable, a more personal part of our being.

[Thomas Moore]

You know what this is? You know what this is, Oprah? We're not losing God. We are finally gaining God. We are bringing God back into the equation.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. I love what you say on page 82. I had to read it several times. First of all, it's so beautifully written. And those of you who are listening to us around the world, take this in slowly. You are born with your spirituality. You don't have to go looking for is a huge presence that wants to live through you and be embodied your life. I just love that it's a presence that wants to live through you and be embodied in your life. Your spiritual self was born in a dream. And when you dream you are returning home. Your natural self is at home in the land where everything is both a physical fact and a poetic metaphor. I had to read that three times. When you dream you are returning to the home, the very womb of your spirit and a world that speaks the language of your soul. Damn, that's good. Woo, that's good. So explain what you mean specifically. Your spiritual self was born in a dream.

[Thomas Moore]

I have this great position to be with people as they are going through the trials of their life and we look at their dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You mean as a psychotherapist?

[Thomas Moore]

As a psychotherapist, yes. And we, like we're looking, both of us looking at this depth of this person and this whole world that they are that's living itself out through them. It's like their life is like the top surface, top level, and you've got this whole dream world with all of its meaning and suggestion and mystery. You know what happens when you go to sleep at night? It doesn't feel like you're watching a movie, does it?

[Oprah Winfrey]

No, it's like it's. You're in it, you're in it, but.

[Thomas Moore]

Yet it's not you. Sometimes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Thomas Moore]

You know, it's like you, but it's not quite you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes.

[Thomas Moore]

And a little bit of your childhood. Someone may appear from your childhood and someone you met yesterday.

[Oprah Winfrey]

My third grade teacher, just the other day.

[Thomas Moore]

See, now what does that suggest? Or what is that saying? We're all here and that childhood is still there and it appears in our dreams. But until you look at the dream, you don't have a clue what's going on.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when you dream, you are returning home.

[Thomas Moore]

That's our home. I mean, that's really where we are. That's where we find everything. It's all there. It's not linear. I know that today, sometime today, I'm going to react to somebody from that child who was probably 7 years old. That child's still there.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Thomas Moore]

Somewhere. And he appears in the dreams.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's right. And are you saying here that our dream life is as real as this one?

[Thomas Moore]

Maybe more. Maybe more real in the sense that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Acha cha.

[Thomas Moore]

Okay. I mean. I mean, really. Really. It could be more real in the sense that that's where our real motivations can be found. You look at your dreams and you say. You say, wow. I can. No, I see what I've been doing up here on the surface of things. I can get it now.

[Oprah Winfrey]

And when you dream you're returning to the home, the very womb of your spirit and a world that speaks the language of your soul.

[Thomas Moore]

Exactly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Now, that resonated so deeply with me because I can feel, and I know you all can too, when you're in your dreams. That there's something about being in that space that. That understands you and that you are more you than you are in your real life.

[Thomas Moore]

That's exactly it.

[Commercial Narrator]

Damn.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's a big aha. That is a bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

[Thomas Moore]

That is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There's something about being in that dream space that feels more like you than the you that is in the. Quote. Reality.

[Thomas Moore]

Absolutely. Yes. We tend to think that I. That the sense of who we are comes from some head someplace in our head. And we call it ego and all that stuff. But I really think, and this is not my idea, it goes way back in time, that who we are comes from that deep dream place. That's really where our identity is. That's why I say that's where our natural self is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So you then say again on page 85. Dreams are the windows and doorways to that essential identity without which we feel lost and wandering. Dreams and revealed. The odyssey of the soul and the path of the spirit.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes, I want to include both all the time. The soul and the spirit. They have to be together. Wow. So dream and soul are almost identical. At least the dream is the language of the soul.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Wow.

[Thomas Moore]

If you look at your dreams and you look at them with some regularity, you begin to live from that deeper place. That's why I think that is part of religion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's pretty. Pretty deep stuff. I think it's. And you know what? I'm being hesitant in my questioning because I'm now thinking and feeling for all the people right now. I hear you. You're in my brain saying, but I can't even remember my dreams. Can we make ourselves remember them more?

[Commercial Narrator]

Because.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes, you can.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You can. What do we do to remember them more? Because I.

[Thomas Moore]

It's so simple. Put a notepad and a pencil or pen next year, or a. Next to your bed or electronic tablet or something next to your bed. Don't do anything in the morning until you write your dream. Don't even. Don't go to the bathroom. Don't brush your teeth, nothing.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Because it'll go.

[Thomas Moore]

It'll go. They go fast. This is a law of these spiritual things. Generally, they go quickly.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You know, it's so interesting what you're saying. I just had a major, major, major. Aha. I think. And I've always sensed it with babies, the young children, up until about the age of five, they come in with a sense of knowing and remembering, and they're forced to let it go the older you get. But they come from that realm, sort of trailing the breath of their dreams.

[Thomas Moore]

Oh, that's a beautiful. Write that down. That's really. That's the way to put it. It's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You see it in them.

[Thomas Moore]

You glimpse it now and then that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

There is a deep wisdom within these children.

[Thomas Moore]

I think that this mysterious realm of the spirit and the soul poke through ordinary life now and then. They poke through. You see it. We talk about a thin veil sometimes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Thomas Moore]

Okay. It pokes through and we glimpse it. So we glimpse this wholeness of the child a little bit.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah.

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[Oprah Winfrey]

So at this point in your life, do you think that this is like another extension, creating a religion of one's own, intensifying your personal identification with whatever it is your you choose to be? Your spiritual practice? That's the ultimate care of the soul, is it not?

[Thomas Moore]

The ultimate care of the soul is being so identified with a life that wants to live through you. That's that idea of that dream wants to be embodied. I mean that very practically. So at any point in your life, you may get the hint that you should be moving on to maybe a different job or even a different marriage, or you should be moving on, different thinking or a different religion or something. And if you hold back on that and say no, no, that would disrupt me. You wouldn't even think it through, but you would decide to say no to life. Then I think that's where the soul gets wounded most. Your individuality comes from your soul, not from your head. It comes from allowing life to live through you. So you're open enough. You're the receiver.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Life is the dance. Eckhart Tolle said this. Life is the dance and we are the dancer.

[Thomas Moore]

Exactly. And that's the ultimate definition of religion, because you are acknowledging something greater than yourself and you're not naming it. And you are not just acknowledging it's.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Too big to even have a name, is what you're saying.

[Thomas Moore]

It's too big to have a name.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You make a major distinction, which I never did until reading this, between the soul and the spirit. I used to use them interchangeably. But you say our soul and our spirit are two different things. Explain that, will you?

[Thomas Moore]

In this view, the spirit is that part of us and part of our life that wants more, that wants to transcend, wants to grow, wants to move into a better world, wants to improve ourselves. So even going to school might be a movement of the spirit. I want to know more. Or picking up a book you want to read, you want to say, I want to know more. That might be a spirit thing. The soul is quite different. The deep soul has more to do with things that are very ordinary, part of ordinary life that you feel intimately like the very first thing. I think that the first point about the soul is the soul needs a home. It needs a sense of home. So we all May be looking for a place where we can say, I'm in the right part of the world, or I'm in the right town or the right area, or I'm in the right house. And that sense of home, of being there where you need to be. This is a very ancient idea that is kind of a basis for the soul to. To really feel at home. So that's why it's so difficult when people don't feel that they have found their home or in the wrong place. Another thing for the soul about the soul is the soul loves to be attached. The soul will attach itself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That's why we have soul mates.

[Thomas Moore]

Soul mates. We're attached to that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, really attached. You know, when you talk about a soulmate and we're attached to families and to our kids and to pets and to things, even objects, even things that we own, we become attached. That's a sign of a real soulful life that you're able to make that attachment. Now, spirit likes to be detached.

[Oprah Winfrey]

So that spirit is that part of us which is transcendent and is seeking transcendence at all times. And you say we already come. We are born with our spirituality in much the same way that Pierre Tellliard de Chardin says. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes, we are spiritual. It's a natural thing. I don't think you have to be taught to be spiritual, because you already are. You already are. If you've ever, ever just walked through a garden and stopped to look at a flower or something and be taken in by it, that's a spiritual act right there. You don't have to be taught that you are there naturally. If you're driving along the road and you see this great sunset and you stop or you pause, or you at least take a look at it, you're a spiritual person.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah. So what you're saying is making. Looking at the everyday experiences in our life as extraordinary moments. Paying attention to those moments that truly matter to us is what creates its own form of religion.

[Thomas Moore]

Yes. You just follow your intuition that way.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You take life's moments as they are, and you try to fully experience and enter them in a way of appreciation.

[Thomas Moore]

So you nurture and you let your spirituality unfold right from yourself.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I see that. So how do we stay connected to that spirit, that spiritual side of us? What do we do to stay in the light of that, to shine the light on that?

[Thomas Moore]

My work helps me. I mean, writing these books, you know, this is a process for me. I Think we all have to find some work that really speaks to us. You have a work like that talking to you? Yes.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Having this conversation. This is my work. Can you believe it?

[Thomas Moore]

It's not only your work, but it's part of your religion. Yeah.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Is it?

[Thomas Moore]

Well, sure it is.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ah, that's a big aha.

[Thomas Moore]

I think it's a major part of your religion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Ah, that makes me want to cry.

[Thomas Moore]

Could I say it is the most. It's the biggest part of your religion.

[Oprah Winfrey]

That is true. That is true. Wow, thanks for that. What do you think is the world's greatest wound?

[Thomas Moore]

The greatest thing I feel as a wound is the suffering children on this planet. That is the biggest wound to me is to think of all those children who are so open eyed and taking in life and so full of life. And for one reason or another with the domestic situation or in wars or.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Whatever poverty, we see them as less than ourselves. Instead of being a part of the fabric of all and here to teach us and to learn from them, we see them as starting at zero.

[Thomas Moore]

That's right, exactly. And that starts at least at the moment of birth. And who knows beyond that.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What is the one thing you think we could begin to do today to elevate our souls?

[Thomas Moore]

We could realize that all of us could realize that we are capable of more love. Then we realize that we are shutting down somewhere in our love. We're protecting ourselves somewhere. And that we could open up further, we could stretch that capacity for love further. Whether that would be with someone who is intimately connected to us or our children, our families, or to the world, our neighbors, whatever that is. Because love is really. Love is really the energy connected to something. Love and soul go right together. You can't love someone if you don't have a soul that's alive and awake. And you can't have a soul unless you're capable of love.

[Oprah Winfrey]

What wisdom have you uncovered that you wish to pass on to everyone?

[Thomas Moore]

I think you develop and attain more of a sense of self and self worth through service to somebody else than anything you do for yourself. I know that's been said in many different ways, but I try to think of that in a particular way. That if I ever feel like I need to be, get my life more, make it more satisfying, or if I feel somewhat depressed at times, the best solution to that is some sort of service. Yeah, that will do it.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Yeah, I agree with that. Listen, if I'm having a bad day and I'm feeling I literally will. I've trained myself to think of what can I do for somebody else that would brighten their day? And it brightens my day to brighten their day.

[Thomas Moore]

That's how it works. A very simple little secret.

[Oprah Winfrey]

It is. Finish this sentence. I believe.

[Thomas Moore]

I believe that the ultimate purpose and way of going about life is unknown, but that it's worth it to constantly search for it and to, in my own action, to have the optimism to make this whole, make my life and the world I live in turn out for the best.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Do you have any thoughts on what happens when we die?

[Thomas Moore]

I feel that there's plenty of reason to think that we survive this physical death as individuals. I believe that there's life after death and that we as individuals, somehow there's eternity baked into us. We think eternally. We think about living forever. We think of our love as lasting forever. I don't think that that's all just then to disappear. So I have faith that there is life for us after death.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You say in this book that you're no longer a seeker.

[Thomas Moore]

No.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Even though this book really will serve a lot of people who are seeking, but you're no longer a seeker. What does that mean?

[Thomas Moore]

No. Isn't that funny? I've been a staker for so long. No. All I mean by that is I don't feel that in me anymore.

[Oprah Winfrey]

You feel like you've come home?

[Thomas Moore]

I just feel like I've come home.

[Oprah Winfrey]

To a religion of your own?

[Thomas Moore]

Yeah. Yeah, I do. This book helped me, I think.

[Oprah Winfrey]

Well, you certainly. I think this is the beginning of a new way of all of us thinking about our spirit, our souls, and how we choose to practice religion in our daily lives. Thank you for this.

[Thomas Moore]

Thank you.

[Oprah Winfrey]

I'm Oprah Winfrey and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe. Rate and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.

[Thomas Moore]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

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[Oprah Winfrey]

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[Thomas Moore]

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