America at 250: Case for the Defense

Summary

Optimist Economy – "America at 250: Case for the Defense"

Podcast: Optimist Economy
Hosts: Kathryn Anne Edwards (Economist), Robin Rauzi (Editor)
Episode Date: June 30, 2026
Episode Theme: As America approaches its 250th birthday, hosts Kathryn and Robin confront the challenge of feeling—and defending—optimism about the United States in a turbulent era. With humor, data, and candid discussion, Kathryn tries to rekindle Robin’s patriotic spirit and make a case for hope, while acknowledging hard truths about history and the present.

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1. Episode Overview

• Main Theme: In honor of the July 4th holiday and America’s sestercentennial (250th) anniversary, this episode explores reasons to feel optimistic—or at least not entirely cynical—about the country’s future, despite ongoing political, social, and economic challenges.
• Purpose: Kathryn intends to convince both Robin (her more skeptical co-host) and the listeners that there is still good reason to invest hope and pride in America, while not shying away from the country's difficult realities.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Acknowledging the Mood: "Reality Acknowledged"

• Both hosts candidly discuss why patriotism (and optimism) feels tough right now in America.
• Kathryn: Emphasizes that loving her country isn’t denial about its wrongs—past or present. Recognizes pain, setbacks, and feeling of backsliding on progress in equality, rights, and democratic norms.
• Robin: Reflects on personal struggles as a gay American witnessing backlash after periods of progress and the emotional fatigue of current events.
  • "I thought more people's minds were changed than apparently were, or their minds have been changed again..." (14:11)

B. Demographic Change and the Challenge (15:13–17:30)

• Kathryn: Explains massive demographic shifts in the US over the past few generations.
  • "When the silent generation were in their 20s, 84% of them were white. When Millennials were in their 20s, 56% were white." (16:05)
• LGBTQ+ self-identification has nearly doubled in a decade—evidence both of progress and backlash.
• Hosts note that such rapid change, uniquely underway in the US, can fuel conflict and discomfort but is also a sign of progress.

C. America’s Unique Diversity (18:38–21:19)

• Cites studies showing the US as one of the most ethnically and religiously diverse nations, especially amongst industrialized countries.
  • Only Canada compares in ethnic diversity; only South Africa outranks in religious diversity.
• Kathryn notes, "It’s a lot of change to happen in a place whose national identity is not fixed by some kind of gene." (24:19)

D. What Holds America Together? (21:09–25:30)

• The US is less about heritage and more about shared ideas, making the national identity feel less anchored yet more open-ended.

E. The Role of Congress & Government Dysfunction (28:26–34:47)

• Discussion about current Congressional dysfunction and why so many Americans feel Congress is disconnected and ineffective.
• Both highlight overwhelming public agreement on key issues—like higher minimum wage and paid leave— versus legislative inaction.
  • Kathryn: "Americans are actually much farther along and united than their Congresses." (30:21)
• Criticize the strategic use of problems (like immigration) as campaign issues instead of solving them.

F. The "Doom Loop" and Optimistic Agency (34:47–36:16)

• Hosts describe the “doom loop” of anger, blame, and inaction in politics—but stress the solution: vote differently and reclaim agency.
  • "We ultimately do hold the cards. We elect awful people." (34:47)
• Kathryn argues for not overstating the power of negative political figures—seeing them as riding (not controlling) a wave of big national change.

G. Historical Perspective and American Resilience (35:27–38:18)

• Kathryn observes: “It’s very hard to claim that this is the worst it's ever been...” (35:27)
• America has weathered far darker eras and emerged with progress, even if uneven.

H. Affordability as a Unifying Issue (38:18–39:00)

• The shared feeling of “unsustainability”—across issues like housing, child care, student loans—is fostering a new majority voice seeking change.

I. Encouraging Participation & Small Wins (39:42–41:30)

• Urges listeners not to give in to cynicism or apathy, especially regarding voting—even with obstacles like gerrymandering.
  • Kathryn: "They know what their weakness is, which is that the American people need to be... people don't actually want what they're selling." (40:28)

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On facing ugly truths:
  “What we are seeing so much negative reaction to is the idea that the US is not a white Christian country that favors men, heterosexual men. ... I don’t want you guys to think that I’m, like, trying to do some softball version of feeling optimistic about the country. There are people legitimately hurting right now... and we have elected a despot who doesn’t care about Americans.”
  — Kathryn (11:46)

• On demographic change as a source of hope and conflict:
  “If you were to go back in time to 1980 and say, here’s what’s gonna happen… you would think it’s probably gonna get worse before it gets better.”
  — Kathryn (17:21)

• On American identity:
  “There’s no de facto genetic combination that would make one person more American than somebody else... We all came here... to remake ourselves and lie about where we came from.”
  — Kathryn (22:47)

• On Congressional dysfunction:
  “It is so obvious that people are disgusted with Congress because they are bad at their job. And they're bad at their job because being bad at their job gets people angry... and we're in some kind of doom loop of not solving problems.”
  — Kathryn (34:15)

• On the resilience of optimism:
  "If we fall into cynicism, we have more to lose than if we keep fighting. Like, don't give up on your country coming back to something you recognize."
  — Kathryn (27:24)

• Comic relief / lighthearted patriotism:
  “We invented the high five! … We didn’t even have a high five at the Bicentennial… It was created in Dodger Stadium.”
  — Kathryn (43:12–44:22)

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4. Key Timestamps

• [09:08] Framing the challenge — can Kathryn make Robin feel good about America?
• [12:13] The end of “pretending” about divisions and problems in America.
• [15:18–16:35] Dramatic demographic change by generation.
• [18:38] Diversity: The US compared globally.
• [28:26–34:47] Congressional dysfunction, public consensus, and the 'doom loop.'
• [38:18] The affordability crisis and shared anxieties.
• [41:30] Motivational push: Don’t let apathy or adversity win.
• [43:12–44:22] Celebrating American cultural inventions: The high five origin story.
• [47:24–48:46] Claiming patriotism as resistance — refusing to let exclusivist forces define what it means to be American.
• [49:02] Executive orders: Fair redistricting (Robin), congressional responsiveness to majority views (Kathryn), and permission to celebrate the 4th of July however one pleases.

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5. Notable Memorable Moments

• “Fulton Street Platform Optimist”: A listener recognizes Kathryn in the NYC subway while listening to the podcast—a serendipitous moment that sparks joy and a shout-out (03:13).
• On singing patriotic songs:
  Robin expresses her love for “God Bless America” as a group song, calling for “national anthems to be singable for everyone” (06:23–06:41).
• Italian Castle Story:
  Kathryn humorously contrasts American “remade” identity with a European’s centuries-long family tree (22:47–24:18).
• Defining American identity as open and vulnerable, but a source of hope:
  “If your whole country is built on an idea, and then you’ve got a lot of people saying that idea is invalid anymore, that’s the moment I feel like we’re in.”
  — Robin (24:43)

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6. Section Summaries

A. Setting the Stage and Acknowledging the Crisis

The hosts set out to engineer optimism amidst troubling backslides in rights and democracy, opening with reality: things are difficult, division is sharp, and acknowledgment—not denial—is needed (11:46, 14:26).

B. Demography and Diversity

Kathryn makes a data-driven case that America’s dramatic, recent demographic change is historically unprecedented for an industrial power (15:18–21:19, 22:47). This is causing upheaval, but is also a sign of adaptation and forward movement.

C. Identity, Agency, and the Power of Participation

The US is “bound by ideas, not ancestry,” which can feel unstable—but leaves the door open for continual reinvention (“We ultimately do hold the cards” — 34:47).

D. Congress, Government, and the Doom Loop

Both discuss how Congress’s dysfunction is apparent—and shared by most Americans. But the mechanism of elections, though battered, is still available for change (34:47).

E. Encouragement and Reframing Optimism

Kathryn brings comic and lighthearted reminders (high five origin, July 4 party tips, American pop culture pride) along with the admonition to claim patriotism as inclusive and contested terrain:
"There is no act of resistance greater than people deciding they get to determine what America is.” (47:24)

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7. Executive Orders & Takeaways

Robin’s Executive Order:

• “Nonpartisan, independent congressional redistricting” – banning gerrymandering to restore genuine representation for voters (49:02).

Kathryn’s Executive Order:

• Require congressional action on any issue supported by an 80%+ supermajority of Americans—or, more simply: Celebrate July 4th however you want, and know Kathryn is more than making up for any lost patriotism (49:44, 50:29).

Final Encouragements

• “Don’t give up. That’s what they want. They want you to feel defeated and give up.” – Kathryn (41:30)
• Celebrate the 4th—inside or out, with flags or movies, in your own way.

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8. Summary Table of Key Sections

| Timestamp | Topic | Quote/Insight | |-----------|-------|---------------| | 09:08–12:11 | Patriotic optimism: Mission Impossible? | “I will be convincing Robin to feel good about America.” | | 15:13–16:35 | Demographic Transformation | “84% of silent generation in their 20s were white; Millennials, 56%.” | | 21:09–24:19 | Defining American Identity | “No anchoring gene… we all came here to remake ourselves.” | | 28:26–34:47 | Congressional Dysfunction & Doom Loop | “People are disgusted with Congress because they are bad at their job.” | | 38:18–39:00 | Affordability as Crisis | “It’s not that I can’t have certain things. It’s that I can’t keep going like this.” | | 43:12–44:22 | American High Five Origin Story | “We invented the high five…” |

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9. Tone and Style

• Highly conversational with humor and cultural asides.
• Direct, data-driven, but never dry; combines history, personal anecdote, and policy.
• Encouraging and realistic, not naïve.

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10. Final Words

Kathryn:
"If we fall into cynicism, we have more to lose than if we keep fighting... don’t give up on your country coming back to something you recognize."

Robin:
"One would hope there’s room for all of us here."

Transcript

[A]

Are you looking for a daily dose of market news without the jargon and the noise? I decided to go take a look and see what those analysts are saying and who those non institutional investors might be. I'm Ann Berry, investor, CEO and board member. And my show, Brew Markets dives deep beyond the headlines to break down the stories of stocks with insider insights. So a really powerful chart there you see just massive deviation. Well, it's the lifeblood of trade. There's just one chapter in there which really struck me because, you know, I've been a CEO of business. You'll come away from each episode of Brew Markets able to ask the questions that help you strengthen your market, not knowledge. New episodes drop every weekday afternoon, so tune in to Brew Markets wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

I watched all of Ken Burns the American Revolution on maternity leave, and my husband would come into the room and he's like, do most people watch a documentary about the battle Randy Wine with, like, the covers pulled up to their eyes or, like, yell out, cross that Delaware? Like, I mean, it's just. It's. Hello and welcome to Optimist Economy. I'm economist Kathryn Ann Edwards.

[C]

I'm editor Robin Rousey.

[B]

On this show, we believe the US Economy can be better, and we talk about how to get there one problem and solution at a time. And this is the single greatest episode we have ever produced because we are talking about America, baby. This episode will be released the week of July 4th or the week before. I'm actually not so good with the time lapse. And anyway, Trump is trying to make America part of his brand, and that guy. This is my favorite holiday. This is our country. In this episode, I will be convincing Robin to feel good about America and also convincing America to feel good about America.

[C]

Feel good about America. Yeah. Good luck. Good luck with this.

[B]

I feel like I was expecting you to just be, like, maybe a little bit more, like, game. Now I'm worried about the good luck being half lackluster. Okay.

[C]

Oh, no. Okay. Good luck.

[B]

Okay. Announcements. Before America, there was announcements.

[C]

So, speaking of Stripes and Stars. Stars, if you would like to rate the show on Apple Podcasts, we would really appreciate that. We've got about 840 reviews. As I'm speaking. We would love to hit a thousand. So if you haven't yet rated the show on Apple Podcasts, please do so. Also, bad news. We're out of hats. We're going to have to restock on hats. Finally, thank you to our super supporter Michael Hayhurst in Durham, North Carolina, who made a Big contribution to keep Optimist Economy on the air. Thank you, Michael.

[B]

Thank you, Michael. I have a quick announcement. It's a call for one particular listener. I am right now in New York City, and I had a big event last night. I was in fancy wear. You should not have recognized me because I actually had on makeup. I was dressed up. I was in cowboy boots, and I was running through the New York City subway when someone yelled out, hey, Catherine, I'm listening to you right now. What?

[C]

No.

[B]

One of our optimists was listening on the New York City. They were on the Fulton platform. I was with my cousin. One of our listeners saw me run by, yelled my name, and he said, I'm listening to you right now.

[C]

And I said, I can't believe that.

[B]

No, I said, pull out your phone and prove it. He pulled out his phone, and it was the maroon and pink of Optimist Economy was up on his phone. I gave him a hug.

[C]

Did you take a picture?

[B]

My cousin took a picture with his phone. But I'm so unaccustomed to being stopped on the street or even really complimented. And I'm so uncomfortable when I'm complimented that I was like, okay, bye, and, like, ran. Like, I think I yelled. I was like, thanks for listening, and just, like, ran away. Like, I couldn't handle the positive encounter.

[C]

You're a fan. Let me get in.

[B]

I was like, okay, well, that sounds really good. Bye. And I just ran. And so, optimist from Fulton street, you know who you are. I ran by while you were listening to me. Please send me the photo. It was such an amazing moment. Like, I had an amazing night, and I felt like I was being carried on the wind of, like, a supporter being like, hey, optimist. So anyway, Fulton street platform optimist, listener, please send me the photo so I can prove to everyone what an amazing good luck charm you were.

[C]

That's amazing.

[B]

Isn't that such a good story?

[C]

That's incredible. I walk around with my Optimist tote bag all the time, just waiting for somebody to say something.

[B]

But, no, I will say that my mom and sister and I all have an Optimist economy tote bag. And my sister and I both use it to carry, like, gear for children, like, diapers and toys, but my mom uses it for knitting. And so we were. My sister and I were over at her house, and the three bags are next to each other, and my sister was rifling through trying to find the thing for her bag, and she turned around, she's like, One of us needs to get a new bag. Little optimist.

[C]

Okay, next up is Retcon. Catherine, do you have any Retcon material?

[B]

Oh, no. I've actually already derailed production enough. I'm just going to save Retcon for next time.

[C]

All right, well, I'm not, because I can just waste Andy's time. Can I do a Retcon about executive orders? Is that allowed?

[B]

100%.

[C]

All right. My executive order two weeks ago, I think, was about singing the Star Spangled Banner. And since then, I have been thinking about why it is that I'm so irritated about people who add all of these flourishes to the Star Spangled Banner, because maybe it seemed very petty. And as I was thinking about this episode in particular, I thought, you know, maybe I had already been too petty about the Star Spangled Banner. But I think that when you sing the Star Spangled Banner in a way that draws attention to yourself, it discourages public singing of the national anthem. And I think that there are moments when collective singing is important and valuable and that the national anthem should be one of those things. It should be sung in a way that invites other people to sing it. So, for instance, sing it in the key of E flat. Don't sing it in a key that's too high for everyone, but also just sing it so that it's not just about you or whatever your musical genre style is. That was just a further elaboration of my love for public singing and the importance of collective singing.

[B]

Oh, my God, Robin. I mean, the whole point of this episode was for me to get you, like, jazzed about patriotism, but, like, here you are coming up in Retcon with it.

[C]

I think maybe I'm just pro singing.

[B]

You're pro singing. Well, we'll get her. This is a good lead. But, you know, I actually would say my little tidbit there would just be. I. I do love the Star Spangled Banner, but I actually more love singing as a group. God bless America.

[C]

For sure, it is a great one. It's also easier to sing.

[B]

It's easier to sing for people like me who sound like something dying.

[C]

It's less about war.

[B]

It's less about war. It was written by an immigrant.

[C]

I think if you took a survey, people would say that that should be the national anthem.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I will. Okay, So I don't want to, like, enter, like, a massive fight, but I just. I happen to, like. I really love the song God Bless America, and I think it's incredibly moving when everybody sings it together. And you're right. Like, the more focus you put on the singer, the less it comes on. Like, the other people singing. Okay. Patriotic songs.

[C]

Patriotic songs.

[B]

Keeping with the theme.

[C]

All right. Terms and conditions.

[B]

I did look up the origin of melting Pot.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

And it's interesting. It's been around for a while, but became famous in America because of a play. This guy's name is Israel Zangwill, and he wrote a play called the Melting Pot, and it's about a Russian Jewish immigrant family in the US the main guy has survived a pogrom, and he goes to the US and it's about immigrants becoming American. And so it's like an homage to America written by. So this is the part that got me really confused. He's not American. He's British. And I don't think he ever lived here. But he wrote a play about Jews in America right after the pogroms.

[C]

Huh.

[B]

And it was called the Melting Pot,

[C]

and that became the. That's the origin of the metaphor, I think.

[B]

That's the origin, I think. So what I could understand. I'm not quite as good at, like, the words part as you. Of, like, you know, when you use, like, website, free biz ads, I feel like you're not getting the best information. Maybe the OED would say something different, but it said, like, the idea of a melting pot had been used before, but it was popularized in this play in 1908 about a Jewish immigrant family in the U.S. okay, we're gonna take a break and come back for the big Pilcrow. Okay. And we're back. Take it from me, someone who's been officially accused by Congress of not being a real American, that you should be excited about July 4th. So let's do a quick origin story of this episode.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Province, maybe not feeling very patriotic.

[C]

It's been a rough. It's been a rough period of time to be an American. Uh, the last. You know, I don't even know. A while.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We felt like we should do something for the Fourth of July. And specifically because it's the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Are you gonna, like, show us your flag? Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Points to flag.

[C]

Points to flag. America 250.

[B]

I have the official America 250 flag. When I said I could do prop comedy, this was the flag that was in my backpack. When that guy was like, real Americans are over there, I was. I literally had on my person an America 250 flag.

[C]

Anyway, so we had this on the agenda, and I said, well, I mean, you know, why should we be optimistic about America? And then Catherine had a short list, and I said, these are just things we like about America, but they aren't necessarily things that make me optimistic for America right now. So she said, I can make anyone optimistic about America.

[B]

And I said, challenge accepted.

[C]

Challenge accepted. Or I guess you accepted the challenge.

[B]

Yes. So I'm going to start with first an admission or an acknowledgement that many people have been hurt not just in the last two years, but really 250 years, 250 years before that, me loving my country and being excited about July 4th and independence. And what it all stands for is not. Because I don't understand how that promise has not been fulfilled at points in time for people. In time. For people at this very moment in time. It's not about, like, a willful lack of acknowledgement that everything is great and America's never done something wrong. And I think the culmination of feeling that a people have right now is watching someone who has no respect for so many things that are just so integral to our country, like following the separation of power in the Constitution. Americans have always supported diversity and thinks it's a strong suit to have someone so absolutely run that notion into the ground and celebrate squashing diversity. I think to have made so much progress on the acceptance of people who don't fit into the white, heterosexual cisgender box, and then to have that both be walked back and become so threatened, all of these things are there. And I don't want you guys to think that I'm, like, trying to do some softball version of feeling optimistic about the country. There are people legitimately hurting right now and feel that they're hurting because this is America, and we have elected a despot who doesn't care about Americans.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's turn it around.

[C]

Reality acknowledged.

[B]

Reality acknowledged. So where does optimism about the future of the US Come from? I think I have a couple points I want to make, but I don't know which way to start this. Robin, when you and I did briefing, I had said, it feels like we're in an era of not pretending anymore.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

If I think back to, like, Catherine in high school versus Catherine now, there was this almost like we don't talk about it like, racism isn't a thing anymore because we have the civil rights movement and a generation or two has gone by, and, like, it was like, we didn't acknowledge that there were still deeply racist people. They were seen as, like, fringe. You know, once gay Marriage becomes legal. It's an absolute celebration of people and joy. And, like, we don't really talk about the number of people who do not support gay people. It feels like what's marked this period right now is that there's just so much coming to the surface of, like, we didn't really want to acknowledge all of these things that were in our country, and now they are incredibly loud, and it's a big reckoning.

[C]

This reminds me of. Was it a Saturday Night Live skit where they're like, I didn't realize everybody was working so hard to keep these things inside and not articulate. If you could just go back to that, that would be fine.

[B]

Just keep that locked up. Okay. But I think part of keeping that locked up was this kind of broad acceptance that the. That we were supposed to be was accepting. And this thing that we were supposed to be was not racist anymore. And now it's almost like once you acknowledge that those people are there, it threatens this idea of what we're supposed to be. So that's hard to live through.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And feel like you will get to the other side. I think that that is part of it is just.

[C]

It feels like a backslide, you know?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I mean, I have. I have long been a believer that, you know, I think largely because I'm gay and I have seen where we have come in my adult life, I never would have believed that I would see legalized gay marriage in my lifetime. And I'm not that. I mean, I'm not that old, and I got it right. So I know that people's minds can be changed, but this has just felt like, oh, I thought more people's minds were changed than apparently were, or their minds have been changed again, or the people whose minds were changed are not strong enough to stand up for these beliefs. It's been hard. Yeah.

[B]

So the way that I. I mean, the only way to successfully design a solution is to effectively diagnose the problem. I think that that is part of the problem, at least the mood of, like, it's not just that things are happening that I don't agree with politically. Like, there's something that's, like, underfoot that is truly making me depressed. And I think, for me, that's a big part of it.

[C]

Yeah. You think there's. Do you think that there are advantages to clearing the air?

[B]

What we are seeing so much negative reaction to is the idea that the US Is not a white Christian country that favors men, heterosexual men. Right. Like that we are stepping away from that. Norm. The Brookings Institute, using census data, projects that by 2045. So within 20 years, Americans will be less than 50% white.

[C]

It's not like there will be another majority group. It will just be.

[B]

All will be a plurality.

[C]

We'll be a plurality.

[B]

Let me just put some perspective on the backlash. Not backlash. That's cheap. With some of what we're going through

[C]

right now, I think the magnitude of change. The magnitude of change, that is always surprising to me.

[B]

Let's do a little back in time test, as I like to call it. Okay. So if you think of the generation that was born before the boomers, they're sometimes called the silent generation or the war baby generation, but they were born before 1946. Okay. When they were in their 20s, 84% of them were white. When boomers were in their 20s, 75% of them were white. When Xers were in their 20s, 62% of them were white. When millennials were in their 20s, 56% of them were white. So that is a massive drop off demographic change. Yeah, that's a massive demographic change. And the gen zers are even less so. I don't have the same comparable statistics because they're in their 20s now, but it is a massive drop off in the share of the population that is white.

[C]

So we shouldn't necessarily be surprised that people feel that.

[B]

Yeah. So in 2025, in a Gallup poll, roughly 9% of Americans identified as other than heterosexual. So they either identified as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or something other than heterosexual. It was 9%. Even in 2012, it was less than half that. So it's not that. It's not, obviously, that they weren't there, but to even identify in a poll as LGBTQIA, that was less than 5% even 15 years ago would say that in a poll. And now it's up to nine and has been rising pretty steadily. The generations that came before us, there was absolutely no recognition or acknowledgement that LGBTQ people existed. Most generations were 80 to 90% white. Black people had almost no rights, and we hadn't seen major waves of immigration that we were gonna see in the 80s. So I kind of think, like, if you were to go back in time to 1980 and say, here's what's gonna happen, how do you think this is gonna go? I think reasonably you would think, well, it's probably gonna get bad before it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Like some type of clash that is negative and ugly has to come from so much change within a population. And I think that's what we're going through. I mean, I. I know that it's. It can seem like we're going backwards, but I think that this is just part of moving forwards is to. To, you know, clear the air or, you know, stop pretending anymore. I think this is part of moving forward. That's not to say that what's happening is good or that it had to be ugly. But I think maybe all I'm trying to say is just because it's getting bad doesn't mean we're going backward. Because sometimes to move forward, you do have to clear the air. You do have to get out the ugly thoughts and the nastiness. And that is part of moving forward.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Now I will say, added wrinkle to all of this change is that it's happening in America, which is one of the most religiously diverse countries in the world. So it's hard mode, for sure.

[C]

You wouldn't necessarily know that from. But it's. Yeah, it's true.

[B]

So there's a study that came out in the early 2000s called the fractionalization of. Like, how do you measure diversity within a country? How do we do this across countries? So the idea was you come up with a statistical measurement. If you were to randomly pick two people from the country, what is the likelihood that they are of, like, different ethnicities, different religions, or different languages? And you can stack up all the countries.

[C]

So this is like a way to, like, look at diversity across countries?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Like an index. It's a diversity index.

[B]

Yes. They have a pretty good accounting of it. It was published and maintained at Harvard with another professor at nyu. And then actually the Wikipedia page is the one that they direct you to of. Like, this is the easiest way to play around with the data. It's from the early 2000s. But other than South Africa, the US was the most religiously diverse country, and it was very religiously diverse.

[C]

And does that include different denominations of Christianity or.

[B]

My understanding is, yes.

[C]

Like, if a Southern Baptist meets a Presbyterian, like, are they different?

[B]

Different. For me, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that it was different sex within Christianity. Okay, so then in terms of ethnicity, the US Is more diverse than any other industrialized country, except for Canada.

[C]

Canada is more diverse than the United States.

[B]

I think so.

[C]

Huh.

[B]

They have a larger Asian and indigenous population as a share of the population.

[C]

Yeah, I can believe that.

[B]

Yes. And they have. They have very large immigrant populations, just like we do. But they're also. I mean, think about Canada. Not A very populous country.

[C]

No, it's about the size of California, I think.

[B]

Yeah. So it's a smaller country and it has large diverse populations. So Canada is more ethnically diverse than us, but of the kind of, like, Western industrialized world. It's Canada and then us. But, yeah, I mean, we are a place undergoing pretty incredible demographic and cultural change, and we're doing it to a degree that almost none of our peers have seen anything, like, in combination.

[C]

And this makes you optimistic?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty incredible demographic transition. It's a pretty incredible kind of existing mix of diversity. And we're doing it in a place that. Oh, how to say this without sounding offensive? Doesn't have, like, an anchoring gene. We occupy a geography like we are in America. When you ask people what they are, they'll tell you, like, oh, I'm part Irish or I'm part French or I'm part German. Like, no one says, oh, yeah, I'm part American. Because that doesn't really mean anything. Because, yeah, we're all visitors here. We all arrived here or descended from people who arrived here, or we're one of the indigenous tribes here. But you can't lump in together because there's more than 500 indigenous tribes in the U.S. i think that the mix of. There's no de facto genetic combination that would make one person more American than somebody else, because there's no version of that that's considered the most American. Like, we all come from different places. Like, what does it mean to be, like, to go back generations? Like, if you go back and you're French and you go. You're always French, and everyone is French, and you can come up with, like, a more French or less French person based by, like, their degree of Frenchness. Like, what does that mean in America? Most of us barely know, like, what our grandfathers or great grandfathers did. Okay, actually, perfect story. I went to a wedding in Italy. My Italian friend was getting married. This is, like, such a win in life to both know an Italian while they're getting married and get to go to Italy for a wedding. And it's at a castle.

[C]

How fun.

[B]

In this village near where his family has had a home for a long time. We get there a day before everybody else. So we spend the night in the castle. And there's a guy, Giovan Giorgio, who is the caretaker. Like, this is his family's castle that he has inherited, and they run as a wedding venue now. And so at one point, he's giving us a tour of the castle. And he stops in front of this absolutely amazing tapestry. He was like, so this is my family tree. It starts in the 1100s, and, like, it's two branches, one from Italy, one from France. And you can see the branches come together. And then, you know, up here at the top is a later generations. And I was like, oh, where are you? And he's like, he laughed. He's like, I'm not on here. This stops in 1850. And my husband and I were like, it stops in 1850. I don't think any American can reasonably say they know what their family was doing in 1850, because everybody came here and lied about it. He thought that that was hilarious. He's like, well, what was. How far back can you trace your family? I'm like, reasonably, I don't know, three, four generations, five tops. But, like, maybe into the 1860s. But even then, it's like, real, real speculative if any of this is true, because everybody came here to remake themselves and lie about where they came from. Like, have you ever read a Dickens novel? If someone falls from grace, they in America or Australia. He thought that that was the craziest thing he's ever seen, But I thought his family tree was the craziest thing I've ever seen. I was like, this is. What the hell? How do you know your family all the way back to the 1100s?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, so I think that it's a lot of change to happen in a place whose national identity is not fixed by some kind of gene. That means it's like you're fighting for space of what makes American. It's like open ground. We can all claim it. I think that's part of what we're going through right now, is through this incredibly just wild moment in US history that is very hard to live through.

[C]

I mean, if you grow up believing that the United States is not about a biological identity of any kind, but that it is an agreement about a system of governance. I mean, I think that that makes. It's just that that feels very vulnerable to argumentation where, you know, if you're French, you're French, and nobody gets to argue with you. I mean, granted, the French are having their own arguments. I do not mean to diminish that, but if your whole country is built on an idea, and then you've got a lot of people saying that idea is invalid anymore, that's the moment I feel like we're in. And that's what makes me anxious, and it's what makes me spend. Spend weekends doing Things to distract myself from the news. Like, it's just. It's a lot to take.

[B]

It's a lot to take. And I wouldn't want to minimize your feelings. I do think that in some ways, I find comfort in thinking that the problem is so much bigger than just one on Pennsylvania Avenue. Like, it's. This is an era of American history of, like, really big change that's not going to be conflict free. And it kind of like, robs him of agency and influence to be like, ugh, whatever. You're like a byproduct of the times. Like, okay, you're not special, you're not influential. You're just riding high on a wave that was there, but latent and, like, bully for you, you did it. But it's not. I don't really think of him as being a catalyst for change, which would make me really depressed if I actually thought he was a catalyst for change.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I think he's more of, like, a tool.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I just feel like a lot of things are changing and not necessarily all for the better.

[B]

I know it's getting terrible, but I think I'm not. Okay, come on. Let's remember that we have a very particular brand of opt. But, like, yeah, shit's getting terrible and, like, that's bad. But don't empower the people who have that narrative with more than they deserve. They don't deserve that much. This is a generational transition of America, American identity, what is acceptable in America, what it means to be an American that we're in a massive generational conflict as we turn from, like, one moment in time to another. And he's like, yeah, I did that. I'm like, the. You did. Come on. We did it to ourselves. We're doing our best. I just. I wouldn't want to empower him with influence he doesn't deserve.

[C]

Well, I mean, and I guess what you're saying, whether or not I believe it is that it's all kind of still up for grabs too. Like, it's not like we've turned this corner. We can't go back or take a different direction.

[B]

This is exactly what I mean. We're not at the end of the book chapters left.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And if we're optimistic, we fight for things that we want, and some of us are.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So my first attempt at optimism is there's a lot of going on, but we aren't done yet. And if we fall into cynicism, we have more to lose than if we keep fighting. Like, don't give up on your country coming back to something that you recognize, you know, like, sure, sure. I'm not saying you have to have a barbecue. I understand, but, like, don't give up.

[C]

I'm not opposed to barbecues, and. Yeah. And I can get on board with that. I mean, I actually have a lot of friends who have moved overseas, and I have been asked multiple times, like, have we thought about moving out of the country? You know, and my patriot wife would. I don't think she would allow it. It's our experiment, and we do feel committed to seeing it through. Yeah.

[B]

That felt like I was, like, maybe a third of the way there, but that also felt like maybe that's what you thought before, and I haven't convinced you of any. So let's keep going.

[C]

Okay. All right.

[B]

The other thing I wanted to say was I do think a lot of pessimism that people have about America rests on how bad Congress is.

[C]

Yeah. Right now.

[B]

Yes. And the feeling that Congress is incredibly weak, that they don't listen to the American people, that they're in the pockets of rich people, and that if our whole system of representative governments rest on power, answering to the people through elections, like, Jesus, this is a really hard moment to feel confident in that check on power.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I almost think I articulated that too well. I'm starting to be like, oh, God, that is rough. That is rough. I'm just gonna tell you right now, that's rough.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, especially the House. I mean, do you just feel like the House was supposed to be our voice? One of the things I was struck by, I can't remember not that long ago, but I hadn't really taken on board, is if a member of Con steps down or is pushed out or dies, you can't appoint a replacement. Like, within a senator, the governor gets to appoint a replacement. Members of Congress have to be elected by the people. They have to have a special election, and they're supposed to be the closest to us in terms of representing us. And I think as the country gets bigger and bigger and districts have more and more people, maybe Congress isn't big enough. But it also just seems completely dysfunctional. And in fact, not only do they not really want to represent. Not everybody, but they don't want to represent their constituents. They take pride in being like, I'm an individual and I stick with what I believe and I do my thing. And you're like, no, that's not your job. That's not your job.

[B]

Well, I mean, perhaps it would make you feel Comfort to know that Congress's approval rating is in the teens. So like a lot of America agrees.

[C]

Yes. Right. I'm not alone in this. Yeah.

[B]

I would say it would be worse if like this is what was going on and there approval rating was in like the high 70s and it'd be like, my God, like what is happening? I mean, there's a general like dissatisfaction with so many branches of government right now. I think that, that like, okay, it doesn't feel great, but at least, at least other people agree this messed up. So yeah, that's, I mean, again, small wins. Small wins. Take the wins where you can find them. I mean, I think a lot of people benefit from America being told that we're an incredibly divided time. Parties have never been so divided. And yet you will see these polls that are like 80% of Americans want a higher minimum wage. 80% of Americans want paid family and medical leave. 80% of Americans want corporate money out of politics. 90% of Americans want Social Security have taxes raised so they don't have to cut benefits. I mean, Americans are actually much farther along and united than their Congresses. And I think I go back to what we talked about in the Progress is a long game episode of it takes a long time for Congress to catch up to the people. Despite being what should be the people's house. Like you can feel that they are just totally disconnected from the people. And Americans have moved on. Like they're tired of costing so much. They're tired of how obvious rich people's influence in politics are. They're tired of the redistricting. They just want Congress to find solutions to problems that are plaguing them. And everybody in there is like a million years old and not doing it.

[C]

Yeah, I feel like it's a game to them. I feel like the arguments in the Supreme Court in particular, like it's just a game. How can I rig this, this argument so that I get what I want and make it a constitutional issue? Congress is sort of the same way. It's like, who can I influence? Who can I convince to vote for this thing or just to not take any action? I mean, I think that's probably the biggest thing is just, just make sure they don't do anything. Large corporations, et cetera, just continue to do what they're doing because nobody will rein them in.

[B]

Nobody will rein them in. Yeah, I, I was reminded of this political scientist interview I watched about the Equal Rights Amendment. And you know, the era. I think the way a lot of people internalize it is like the height of third wave feminism is that they were going to get an equal rights Amendment, but it was so radical, it was defeated by the states. But what really happened was that it was like overwhelmingly bipartisan. Passed the House, passed the Senate, almost no one voted against it. And. And the defeat of the ERA came really in the final moments before it was ratified as a constitutional amendment. That basically politicians realized they had more to gain if it was an issue that they could use to win elections rather than a problem to be solved.

[C]

Witness immigration in 2024.

[B]

Yes, it's that. Why would we have.

[C]

We had a bipartisan bill to reform immigration and. And threw it away because Trump told them to. It was a better issue to run on than it was to solve.

[B]

Yes. So for y' all who might not know this, in the last year of Biden's presidency, there was a bipartisan Senate led effort to pass sweeping immigration reform. And the bill was sunk because then candidate Trump said, don't pass immigration reform. Cause then I can't run on immigration.

[C]

Yeah. And that's just a way to make sure you never solve any problems.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Okay. So I feel like we're getting pretty far in the problem diagnosis stage.

[C]

Okay. That's okay. All right.

[B]

Okay. But I will say, like, this is obvious. Like, it's. I don't think, like, you and I are like high level political scientists. Like, it is so obvious that people are disgusted with Congress because they are bad at their job. And they're bad at their job because being bad at their job gets people angry. And getting people angry wins elections. And we're in some kind of, like, doom loop of not solving problems bad.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Like, as problems don't get solved and people get more and more pissed off, then you just get angry at people that don't look like you and be like, actually it's their fault for being an immigrant or being black or being gay or whatever. Like, I feel like we're like looking up at the doom loop going around us being like, this is. This is tough.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm not saying that I'm happy about the doom loop.

[C]

Okay. No one's optimistic about the doom loop,

[B]

except that it has a very, I mean, if not easy, obvious solution, which is vote in different people. Like, I know that sounds naive to say, like, oh, and we just have to vote for other people. But on some level, like, we ultimately do hold the cards. We elect awful people. The mechanism is there, I guess, is something that I feel good about, that we have elections. Like, if you don't like something like vote them out.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that that also means. Frankly, I think it means challenging people in your own party. I would love to see additional parties personally, but the incumbency. If you're not solving problems, then kind of get out of the way for somebody who will.

[B]

Yes. I could not agree more. The optimist party. Let's just solve some. Don't look at me, don't talk to me, don't come up and greet me in the subway, or I'll run away. We're here to solve problems. I really love American history, and I think in American history, it's very hard to claim that this is the worst it's ever been. Like, I don't think we're anywhere near the. It's like, not great moments, but, like, we're not like. I don't know if we're really scratched the top five worst moments for democracy in US History. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe you would disagree.

[C]

I don't know. I was actually. And I was trying to count. I was like, well, you know, like, are we. I think what I find troubling is that when you're in moments where the humanity of your fellow Americans is questioned, whether those people. It's because they are black or because they are gay or because they are trans or because they are immigrants, that just always feels really high stakes to me because that's the kind of thinking that leads to really bad stuff. It leads to wars, it leads to genocides, it leads to internment camps. And some would say we're. We're seeing those things. Right. It's hard to compare things to say, the Civil War or frankly, the war against the Indians. And there's like, horrible things like the bar, the par.

[B]

So the election of 1876, that one's like. That's a real bad one in terms of, like, low moments of U.S. history. Which one's the Great Compromise? 24, 1824. That was another terrible one. Yeah. Whole Civil War, that whole period. Anyway, listeners must like this a little bit if they actually listen to us. But I think that we know the path out. I think the people's agenda, more than 75% of Americans want this agenda is a really good agenda. And the inability of Congress to function the way that elections are threatened, all of it has solutions, you know, and we have in hand what people want. I think what's interesting to me is that this latest kind of wave of affordability and this word that has become inescapable in our society and economy. What I think is really interesting about it is that it's a majority issue. It's not that childcare is unaffordable or that parenting is hard. Everybody has put themselves under the umbrella of affordability and they have their version of it of like, here is what is breaking me. Not like, I'm a housing person, I'm a student loan person, I'm a childcare person. Like, it's just the notion that it's.

[C]

Well, it's this notion that the economy is not functioning for American people. Right.

[B]

But it's funny, the word to me, unaffordable. The way that people describe it, it's really. It's unsustainable. It's not that I can't have certain things. It's that I can't keep going like this. There's a total unsustainability to my basic economic life. And I think that it is mirroring the unsustainability of the terrible policy regime we have right now. Like, this is crashing into something. I don't know what it is, but the idea that, like the bas. Political motivation of Americans right now is to express how unsustainable their life feels has to usher in some kind of change.

[C]

Right? We hope.

[B]

We hope. Okay, let's do a quick check in. Robyn, are you feeling any more optimistic about the US I have a couple more tricks up my sleeve, but how are you feeling?

[C]

Well, I mean, you know, it makes me optimistic that there are people like you and others. I know there are others who are dozens of us. There are dozens of us, dozens of you, who can see beyond the. And sort of not get dragged into the mire of what it just feels like is endless setbacks. So, I mean, I think that helps. But I, you know, I'm sure I'm not the only one who just feels like we are just holding on until the midterms by our fingernails.

[B]

Don't put too. I would say let's not put too much of our self worth on the midterms, though. Like, be prepared for the midterms to be slightly disappointing. Getting a note from production. Sophie's worried about gerrymandering and scotus. I think this is a very valid concern. But to be fair, that makes it harder to win an election. But that doesn't mean it's. They haven't determined the outcome of the election. Right. They're trying to cook the books in their favor. But that doesn't mean that it's like the election doesn't happen or we. We don't get the chance to vote anymore. And I know that there's attacks on every aspect of voting and I'm not trying to minimize them. But the reason why they're attacking voting, y', all, they're playing their hand. They know what their weakness is, which is that the American people need to be.

[C]

People don't actually want what they're selling,

[B]

and people don't want it. Like, people don't want what they're selling. Like, y', all, they are telling us that they're wrong. They're telling us that they're weak. They're telling us that they stand on unstable ground. They're telling us that they are trying to co opt America and America is not on board. So don't let them think that we're on board. So, yes, that means we have to win bigger to overcome every obstacle they've put in our way. But they're only putting up those obstacles because they know that otherwise they're lose, which means they're close. We are closer than they are willing to admit out loud because they are showing it with their actions. So don't give up. That is what they want. They want you to feel defeated and give up. Sophie, if Donald Trump could do one thing right now, it would be to say, Sophie, your vote doesn't matter. Illinois, Chicago, garbage country. Don't. Don't vote, Sophie. Like, he doesn't want you to vote. Yeah, Sophie, I control scotus, so you don't matter. Don't think about it. Sophie, just stay home. Okay. Like, he does not want a resident of Chicago to vote and put up huge numbers in Illinois. Sophie, don't give in to the man.

[C]

I don't think I've ever heard you do the President's voice before. That's.

[B]

I actually am just doing the guy from snl.

[C]

You sound a lot like, like you could be on snl.

[B]

Chicago city. No good. Sophie, stay at home. Don't vote that day. Probably get shot all the way. Very violent. Yeah. So I mean, just.

[C]

Don't

[B]

you guys just play Trump's voice in your head telling you give up and don't vote? That's all the motivation you need to be like, and you know what? I'm actually going to throw two July 4th. Fourth parties.

[C]

Well, Catherine tells us the party starts on the second and just keeps going.

[B]

It does. But like, yeah, y', all, like, just imagine his voice in your head saying, like, I'm so glad you've given up. I'm going to do a real quick, like, rundown of some things to keep in mind about America.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Ready?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

We're awesome. We have the greatest city in the history of the world, which is New York City. You can't match it. You can't. You can try. You'd be like, I don't know. Paris is nice. Like, okay, 1700s aristocrat. I'm sure it's lovely. I am talking about New York city in the 21st century is amazing. And if you don't believe me, watch videos of the Knicks winning and people celebrating on the streets.

[C]

You cried, didn't you?

[B]

I did. I arrived in New York the next day, and it was like arriving to an entire city that had just had the largest Thanksgiving dinner of their life. Like, people were subdued and full. Just kind of, like, calm. I mean. All right, so we. So let's just review. Our country's awesome. We have the greatest city in the world.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Other things great about America. We make the best music and movies, which, like, going two for two. Is that like, going one two on music and movies is amazing because it's such a dominant culture of the world. We invented the high five. How's that? How's that? Americans. That's us reaching out a hand and just waving it in the air, and someone slaps it back. That is America. It was created in Dodger Stadium.

[C]

Yes, that does sound like a Dodger Stadium thing.

[B]

There are many origin stories of the first high five, but the two most documented candidates are Oct. 2, 1977, at Dodger Stadium, when LA Dodgers outfielder Dusty Baker hit his 30th home run of the season. And as he crossed home plate, his team led, rookie Glenn Burke raised his hand in the air, and Baker reached up to slap it. Oh, that was from Wikipedia.

[C]

We didn't have a high five before 1977.

[B]

I know. Think about it. We didn't have a high five at the bicentennial. How did people celebrate our 200th birthday? They couldn't high five each other. I don't know. Did you just put elbows up, like, hug?

[C]

Well, I guess, you know, there was a time before a fist bump. So I guess there was a time before high five.

[B]

I didn't know the high five was an American thing until I was in Europe, and I met a British guy who is a listener of the show. And if you're listening, hello. And he made this joke. He was like, oh, really? Was it awesome? Do you want a high five now? And I was like, yes, I feel so seen. And he was like, that's such an amer. I was like, 21 and I was like, oh, is it an American thing to high five? And he said, yes. Not. I was like, but that's so sad for you. It's like a pure expression of joy. Why wouldn't you embrace that?

[C]

Yeah. I'm going to watch the World cup differently. I think now I'm going to be watching for high fives.

[B]

Yeah. World Cup's the greatest test of how many high fives there are. But a high five is. Yeah. Invented on an American baseball field in Los Angeles.

[C]

Angeles.

[B]

I feel people who aren't enthusiastic about the US Right now, but we come from an awesome, difficult place. And sometimes it's more awesome, and sometimes it's more difficult, but it's always a little bit of both. And it's not his holiday. It's our holiday. This is an expression of us as a people. And so I think if you want to have a bedazzled red, white, and blue July 4th, if you want to spend July 4th inside watching Independence Day, as I often do, if you.

[C]

The Alien movie. Yeah.

[B]

You know, I've actually staged it, so I'll watch, like, the part that takes place on July 2 on July 2, and I'll watch July 3 on July 3, and then I'll watch July 4 on July 4. We throw a huge July 4 party every year, and I will put Independence Day on and just have it play on repeat during the party.

[C]

Have you seen Hamilton?

[B]

No.

[C]

Because you're not a musicals person. I don't know what's wrong with you.

[B]

Don't say. I was just, like, really, like. I feel like we just lost a lot of listeners. Not a musicals person. Who the is this girl?

[C]

I think that that would change for you if you saw Hamilton, like, live.

[B]

You sound like my sister six years ago. Like, just, like, just shoving that soundtrack down my throat saying, I need to listen to it.

[C]

This is a musical made for you. I don't know why you. You have not gone.

[B]

Okay, so just a note to the optimist. Production has just interrupted the recording to make sure that it's clear to me that I need to go see Hamilton. Okay. So stay with me.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Musicals.

[C]

Also American.

[B]

Yeah. Also American. There's a couple of forms of art that we have invented other than just musical genres. I didn't realize this. We invented the short story because we had literary magazines.

[C]

Hmm.

[B]

And we weren't the only ones that did it, but it was. The demand for short story was in periodicals in the US So. Okay. You know, not bad.

[C]

Not bad. We are storytellers. Overall, is what I'm getting out of this, which attracts.

[B]

Attracts.

[C]

I mean, we tell stories about ourselves to ourselves all the time.

[B]

And here's the story that I'm telling. For optimists, there is no act of resistance greater than people deciding. They get to determine what America is. They get to determine what it means to be American and who gets to be American. And one person being more American than other than to celebrate your country in their face of, like, you know what? You think you love your country more than me, and I don't matter. Like, I'll see you one and raise you another. Hold on. Points to flag.

[C]

Points to flag.

[B]

And that's just my road flag. That doesn't count all the flags I have at home. This is the flag I took on the road to record in New York. I've always got a flag on me, baby. It's there. So that's. I think. It's not all I got. I just feel like we should. Stop letting me talk.

[C]

Okay. It's been a minute. It's been a minute. I get that you love America. I get it. I get it. And I am happy that America has you.

[B]

I am happy that America has you. Because I actually don't think it would be a chill place if everybody was like me.

[C]

I think.

[B]

I think there's people who are like. I think this is what it means to be American, is that you could be like me, but you could also be like you and be like, hey, I'm into it. I wish it were better in a chill way. So I think that's also. I think it's. I think there's room for all of us.

[C]

One would hope that there's room for all of us here. All right, we're going to take a little break. We'll be back in a second.

[B]

So this is the end of the show where I stop talking and we give executive orders.

[C]

So in light of this episode, I was thinking about what I really would want out of a better America. And I decided, nonpartisan, independent congressional redistricting done by commission, applying some really good algorithmic optimization so that our districts are compact and contiguous and have population equally distributed. And just get rid of the gerrymandering. It's. It's maddening. My mother once said to me, I've elected five different congressmen, and they're all still in Congress. And that was true, that they had been redistricted so many times, I'm not far behind her. Doesn't matter what state you're in. It's. Anyway, that's my executive order.

[B]

That's so good.

[C]

In the, in the Rousey Republic. That's what, that's what'll happen.

[B]

God, the Rousey. The Rousey Republic. Okay, maybe mine will be. Be. There needs to be some type of official polling system. Like, it could be Gallup or Pew or whatever. But like, once Americans are in like 80 plus percent of support for an issue, Congress has to like, have hearings and develop legislation for it. Like, you can't have this many people in support of something that's like, like, it's not like they're in support of like something crazy like here, like, give everybody a million dollars. It's like, we really just want paid fair family leave. Like, this is such a reasonable want. I. I suppose my. That would be my, like, corollary, but my actual executive order is for every optimist to go out and enjoy July 4th, however they choose to enjoy it. Nice.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

And if you just. And if you were like, I don't want to be very patriotic. Just know I am more than making up for you, brother. You just enjoy the holiday however you want to enjoy the holiday.

[C]

Next. Excellent.

[B]

All right, spiritual sponsors, can you go first? My spiritual sponsor are the Knicks in five celebrations in New York City.

[C]

There have been roving gangs of Knicks fans in my neighborhood in Los Angeles, too. I had no idea there were so many New Yorkers in my neighborhood specifically.

[B]

I mean, I don't even think it's the Knicks in five. I mean, the Knicks four win that one. I mean, all of the celebrations for the finals have been. I don't know if you saw. I think it was when they won game four that Spike Lee was like, driving through the city like the Pope just hanging out in the top of a car in Knicks gear. And people were surrounding him and like cheering him on as if the Pope. It was like the pontiff himself is like going through Brooklyn at one o' clock on like a Friday night. But it's actually just Spike Lee after a Knicks win. I was like, what a ridiculous city.

[C]

Seriously.

[B]

So, spiritual sponsor. I am not a huge basketball fan. I would be loyal to the Rockets and soon to be Comets, obviously, but I just. That much celebrating, it was ridiculous. It, like warmed my heart. So that's great.

[C]

That's great. So my spiritual sponsor this week in particular I will be spending in Louisville, Kentucky. So my spiritual sponsor for the 250th anniversary of America is definitely going to be bourbon. I hope so, whatever bourbon they've got in Kentucky. And I understand they have a lot of of it.

[B]

Let's do Credits the Optimist Economy Podcast is edited by Sophie Lalonde. Our video production for social media is by Andy Robinson. We snap them out because they make this possible. And y', all, if this, this is another episode where like, if this sounds good, it's because they are heroes. Anyway, T shirts and tote bags are available on our website, but not here. Hats because you waited too long. Go to optimisteconomy.com for more Fulton Street Subway Guy Send me the photo. Optimist economymail.com Video clips from our show

[C]

are available on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn. If you're on Substack, you can join our Optimist Economy chat there and if you have the means to contribute at whatever level is comfortable for you, will take your [e-mail].

[B]

Robin give up robin.