No Overtime for the Supervisor of Sandwiches

Summary

---

Optimist Economy: "No Overtime for the Supervisor of Sandwiches"

Hosts: Kathryn Anne Edwards & Robin Rauzi
Date: May 19, 2026

---

Episode Theme & Purpose

This episode dives into the history, function, and erosion of overtime protections in U.S. labor law, examining how the concept of overtime—once a hard-won labor standard—has been undermined by policy drift, employer tactics, and recent legislative changes. Kathryn and Robin connect the origins of standard workweeks to present-day wage theft via "title inflation" and critique recent tax policies that, paradoxically, incentivize overwork. The conversation is rich with data, historical anecdotes, legal explanations, and the duo’s signature humor and optimism for policy solutions.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes & Episode Setup

• The hosts begin with a lighthearted exchange about wearing sunglasses indoors, setting a relaxed tone for the episode ([00:39]).
• Kathryn shares that she'll be testifying in Congress soon, referencing her credibility and advocacy background in labor economics ([02:23]).

2. Retcons & Data Transparency

• Discussion on the reliability and limitations of economic data in the U.S., with emphasis on transparency as a strength:
  • “The strength of our data reporting really comes from the depth of transparency in what we get right and what we get wrong.” – Kathryn ([04:21])
• Generational challenges: lower survey response rates, underinvestment in data agencies, and resulting implications for policy.

3. Economic Language: Origins & Terms

• Kathryn explains the meaning of "tenterhooks" as "being stretched tight" – a fitting (if misapplied) metaphor for overtime ([06:28]).
• Robin uncovers that “perk” comes from "perquisite," relating to special rights at work ([07:53]).
• Light wordplay and humor frame how workplace realities and language evolve together.

4. History of Overtime and the 40-Hour Week

• The origins of overtime pay:
  • Initially, 12+ hour shifts and 70–80 hour workweeks were standard, especially in industries like steel ([10:21]).
  • Labor leaders like Samuel Gompers and movements for the “8 hours work, 8 hours sleep, 8 hours for what we will” rallying cry ([11:48]).
• The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938:
  • Set the minimum wage, banned most child labor, standardized a 44-then-40-hour workweek, and created overtime premium pay ([12:38]).
  • Unique for covering all workers, not only women and children, but initially excluded entire sectors (e.g., railroads) ([14:13]).

5. The Exemption Loophole – White Collar Exception

• The FLSA “bona fide” exemption for executives, administrators, and professionals (the “EAP test”) created by Congress ([16:14]):
  • “They use the word bona fide…that the minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to bona fide executives, administrators and professionals.” – Kathryn ([16:33])
• Defining EAP led to ongoing disputes and changes, including tests for salaried status, duties, and compensation thresholds ([17:08]; [18:27]).
• Over decades, the threshold for overtime eligibility was left to erode, with updates from $8,000 (1975) to $23,660 (2004), then $35,568 (2019), and a (now contested) $60,000 set for 2026 ([21:54]).

6. Employer Tactics: “Title Inflation” and Avoiding Overtime

• Employers circumvent overtime rules by reclassifying workers as managers with absurd titles (“Director of First Impressions,” “Food Expectations Manager”) to claim exemptions ([29:33]):
  • “Are you a groomer or a grooming manager? …You work at a food cart in a large office building and you become the food expectations manager. I mean, these are absolutely ridiculous titles.” – Kathryn ([29:36])
• Family Dollar’s high-profile case: systematically promoted workers to “managers” to avoid overtime, ultimately losing a $35 million wage theft lawsuit ([28:59]).
• Robin: “... unpaid overtime wages are like 80% of the wage theft FLSA cases.” ([31:00])

7. Cultural Erosion & Lack of Enforcement

• The “death by a thousand cuts” of the overtime rule has normalized overwork, especially for white-collar jobs ([21:54], [32:17]).
• Kathryn’s personal experience with robust overtime enforcement contrasted with widespread disregard elsewhere, demonstrating how management attitudes can reshape work-life expectations ([25:32]).

8. Recent Policy Fights: Biden, Trump, and the Courts

• Biden administration planned to raise the threshold to ~$60,000 by 2026, but a federal judge blocked the move post-2024 election, mirroring a similar Obama-era court injunction ([23:59], [24:09]).
• The legal fight centers on whether rulemaking can change salary thresholds without changing the duties component of the EAP test.

9. The No Tax on Overtime Rule

• Recent U.S. tax provision allows people to deduct their overtime premium pay from their taxable income ([09:42], [37:00]).
  • Kathryn: “I hate this rule because it’s basically subsidizing the use of overtime … you’re incentivizing employees to disregard the work week." ([37:56], [38:48])
• Critique: Encourages both employers and employees to work more hours, undermining the entire purpose of overtime as a check against overwork.
• Robin notes widespread confusion in implementation and cost overruns: expected claims for deductions vastly exceeded projections, costing $50 billion/year ([39:37]).

10. Solutions & Calls to Action

• Congressional action (not just administrative rulemaking) could close the EAP loophole and restore strong overtime protections ([42:56], [43:00]).
• Robin and Kathryn underscore the real, tangible impact on the quality of life for both low-wage and white-collar workers ([41:56]).
• Discussion of further policy levers: Congress could easily amend the FLSA or even mandate paid vacation as a complementary measure ([43:35]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On data transparency:
  “The strength of our data reporting really comes from the depth of transparency in what we get right and what we get wrong.” — Kathryn ([04:21])
• On wage theft and overtime:
  “Unpaid overtime wages are like 80% of the wage theft FLSA cases.” — Robin ([31:00])
• On inheritance of overwork:
  “It’s been 50 years since we’ve had robust overtime enforcement for white-collar workers. …The protection you need is for time at work—to make sure they’re not sapping more from you.” — Kathryn ([32:22])
• On the 'no tax on overtime' provision:
  “This is like the crowning achievement of eroding the success of having a 40-hour work week: a tax deduction for overtime on your income filing. It’s not going to go to most low wage workers. It’s just going to encourage people to blow past the 40-hour work week.” — Kathryn ([39:17])
• On FDR's labor stance:
  “Do not let any calamity howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day tell you that a wage of $11 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all industries.” — Quoting FDR ([44:30])
• On solutions:
  “It’s just a law. So right now, all changes in this test are coming from administrative rulemaking from the Department of Labor…Congress meets, they pass a new Fair Labor Standards Act amendment, it increases the minimum wage to $15 an hour, and then it says who are the people exempt from the minimum wage and overtime? They could set it at whatever they wanted.” — Kathryn ([43:00])

---

Important Timestamps

• [09:42] – Launch of main overtime discussion and recent “no tax on overtime” policies
• [10:21 – 14:50] – History of the 40-hour workweek, FLSA, and rise of overtime pay
• [16:14 – 19:06] – Introduction and explanation of EAP exemption; the “white collar” loophole
• [21:19 – 23:59] – Erosion of overtime protections and failed policy updates
• [25:32 – 27:07] – Kathryn’s first-hand experience: life-changing effects of enforced overtime rules
• [28:59 – 31:00] – Title inflation, wage theft, and Family Dollar store case
• [37:00 – 41:34] – Analysis of the “no tax on overtime” provision and its backward incentives
• [43:00 – 44:30] – The clear path to legislative reform and references to FDR
• [46:00 – End] – “Executive orders” and “spiritual sponsors” segment (hosts’ personal light-hearted policy wishes and gratitude)

---

Host Executive Orders & Spiritual Sponsors

• Kathryn: All workers exceeding 40 hours/week must wear a visible badge or crown to signal overwork, exposing the absurdity.
• Robin: New cars must include at least one non-monochrome color option—a plea for vibrancy!
• Spiritual Sponsors:
  • Kathryn: “Awesome first bosses” who respected overtime and dignity.
  • Robin: Her trusty Faraday e-bike, a symbol of practical freedom.

---

Closing Notes

This episode underscores how what feels inevitable in working life—endless hours, “salaried” as a synonym for being always on call—was built by choices and could be reversed by new ones. Overtime protections are not a relic; they are a fix hiding in plain sight.

If you work more than 40 hours this week, as Kathryn and Robin say: "Go home." ([49:08])

Transcript

[A]

You're used to hearing my voice on the world, bringing you interviews from around the globe. And you hear me reporting environment and climate news. I'm Carolyn Beeler. And I'm Marco Werman. We're now with you hosting the World Together. More global journalism with a fresh new sound. Listen to the world on your local public radio station and wherever you find your podcasts. You know, if you're listening, you can't tell that I'm wearing sunglasses, but I do feel like it's altering my Persona to be wearing sunglasses. Inside, you look more alone, actually.

[B]

You're just kind of.

[A]

It's like cool. Katherine is the host today. Like, not economist Katherine Edwards. Just like your girl Katherine talking Chill. Hello and welcome to Optimist Economy. I'm economist Katherine Ann Edwards.

[B]

I'm editor Robyn Rousey.

[A]

On this show, we believe the US Economy can be better. And we talk about how to get there one problem and solution at a time.

[B]

This week on Anonymous Economy, we're both wearing sunglasses.

[A]

We are wearing. I. I have some type of eye thing going on. A blood vessel popped in my eye and I look like. This is a deep cut. But for you Star Trek fans, I look like Data when he's like half Borg, half Data. Where one of my eyes is blue and the other one is red. And just for like a little modicum of privacy, I am wearing sunglasses and Robin is wearing them in solidarity.

[B]

I am. But I'm gonna have to take them off because I can't read anything.

[A]

This is gonna be a real off the cuff episode. Cause I can't read any of my notes.

[B]

I know we should have done this like as a garden party episode outside,

[A]

But I'm about 85% sure, based on reading my notes, that we are talking about overtime.

[B]

We are. We are talking about overtime. Why we have it, who gets it, who doesn't get it, and what to make of the no tax on overtime provision that was part of the oba OBA announcements. I don't think I have any announcements. Except, you know, we always appreciate it when you give us money. You can do [e-mail]

[A]

truly optimist. When you give us money, we give it to Andy and Sophie for production. And so we cannot thank you enough for every donation you give us. In a couple weeks, we'll be recording our Q and A episode. So send your questions about the economy to optimist economymail.com Also, someone's testifying in front of Congress. We can say here that I will be testifying in front of Congress. Optimus, you don't know this about me, but I've actually testified in front of Congress before. It's like a bombshell. But I have and I'm doing it again. So if this is the day that I'm testifying, I will not be wearing sunglasses inside.

[B]

All right, Redcon.

[A]

I have one retcon, which is that my executive order that parking making employees pay for parking is a form of wage theft was met with the Spotify review. The parking executive order means Katherine has moved back to Houston from D.C. fully and spiritually.

[B]

So true. Yeah. When you start demanding free parking, that's like. That's Texas all over, isn't it? Yeah.

[A]

Honestly, I. I feel seen that that is the case. I got a lot of pushback for that one. But I maintain that if you make employees pay to park, you're sapping their wages. Okay.

[B]

Okay. I had just one thing. I'm in Red Con. You know, we went through a lot of data, economic data that have been reported episode. And I'm just curious, like, how confident are you feeling about this data and its accuracy at this moment in time?

[A]

Well, okay. Is it a capturing question or a reliability question? So the capturing question would be like, do you think we're actually seeing everything in the economy measured through this data or is it a. This data is being manipulated or eroding and it's not good anymore?

[B]

I guess my question was the latter, but the former is a really also important point.

[A]

The data, as good as it was, which is extremely good, but could be a lot better if we invested in the statistical agencies in the US So we have very good data. And one of the things that makes it good is that we know what's wrong with it. The strength of our data reporting really comes from the depth of transparency in what we get right and what we get wrong. And I think that's what makes it trustworthy for me is that if they make a mistake, if they miss something, they will tell you.

[B]

That's how I feel about news outlets too. The ones that you trust the most are the ones that actually make the most corrections.

[A]

Yes. Because they're like, yep, we missed that one. We did this one. I mean, I guess that's a shout out to us. That's kind of why we do retcon is to say we might have said

[B]

something that we shout out to us.

[A]

Shout out to us. We also make mistakes. We're like pretty strong people. We're pretty self assured in our personalities. So I think the data is facing Generational problems. People aren't responding to surveys as much. There's a lot of administrative sources for data that we could integrate that we're not doing because the agencies don't have the money to do. So. There are problems with the data, but we know what they are.

[B]

We could do better. We just have to invest in doing it better. Yeah.

[A]

Now, is it capturing the extent of pain in the economy? I think the answer is going to be no for anyone experiencing pain.

[B]

Well, yeah, right.

[A]

Like, if you don't have a job, you don't experience unemployment at 4%. Your unemployment is 100%.

[B]

100%?

[A]

Yeah. You're like, your unemployment is 100%. Everybody else's employment is 0%. So the. I think that's a real tension in economic reporting in the data that is not special to right now. I mean, we talked about it when the unemployment rate was invented in the measurement finalized, when GDP was invented and finalized, that these measures aren't perfect. And when the economy is weak and causing pain, I think that's when our dissatisfaction with measures get the highest. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Terms and conditions. What did you look up?

[A]

I looked up because now, believe it or not, even though you weren't there, I once again said something that was like a malapropism. I said it wrong. And I had like a. A spiritual Robin there to say. Did you just say tender hook? And I was like, yeah, I'm on tenter hooks. They're like, no, it's tenter hooks with a T. Well, that's mortifying. So then I had to go look up what it means to be on tenter hooks. Tenter hooks. And tenter hooks has to deal with the textile industry where, like, the tent was a wooden frame that you would stretch the cloth over, and then the hooks kept it in place. So it just means to be a piece of cloth pulled taut. And so if you're on tenter hooks, it means you've been stretched tight. Yeah. It was weird, though, because it really means you're nervous about something, which I was like, oh, tender hooks, like, it's fragile, but they use tender. I feel like tenter hooks means you're just. You're stretched so thin, you know, there's no slack. And it kind of.

[B]

It's a state of suspense or agitation

[A]

as opposed to the actual physical tenter hooks that are keeping you as tight and as stretched as possible, which I thought was like, oh, I'll work that in for the overtime episode when we're all so stretched. But that's not the right meaning. So.

[B]

Well, it's also. You're in a state of suspense about the uncertainty of a future event, specifically.

[A]

So I looked up tenter hooks.

[B]

So I looked up perquisite, which I did not know is the origin of the word perk, like perks on your job. So perk became sort of an abbreviation for a perquisite in the mid-1800s, and it's, you know, a thing that's regarded as a special right or privilege. I mean, often as a result of one's position in society, but also one's job or employment. I don't know why we don't spell it with Q. That would be much better, right?

[A]

Oh, a perk with a Q. All right. Some. Some indie pop artist is going to release an album called Perk with a Q. With a Q and all caps.

[B]

Now that we've said that, actually, eventually once when we start giving out things to, like, subscribers, we'll call them perks with a Q.

[A]

Amazing, Robin. God, you with the words every time.

[B]

Okay, that's it for the front of the show. We'll be back in just a second for the big pilcrow about overtime. Here we are. We're back for the big pilgrim on overtime. So overtime has been in the news a lot lately because it was tax filing season, and this year, people got to deduct part of the pay that they got for overtime. This was sort of the. What did you call it? Little sibling to the no tax on tips was no tax on overtime. I don't know if it was the little sibling, because turns out a lot of people took this deduction. Way more people than anybody thought they were going to. Yeah. So we thought we'd talk a little bit about overtime, why we have it, who gets it, who doesn't, and how it's sort of evolved into what we've got going on today. Does that sound vague enough as a.

[A]

Sounds vague enough.

[B]

Okay, good.

[A]

I think we can keep this under four hours.

[B]

All right, excellent.

[A]

Good luck in post, Sophie. Wishing you the best. All right, so overtime. The concept of overtime is that you get paid more than your hourly rate after you work past the standard work week. So you work 40 hours a week, and you make $20 an hour for the 41st hour. You get paid $30 an hour because you get a bonus for having to work over the standard hours. It is meant to penalize employers working people too long so that they hire more people instead of overuse the workforce they have.

[B]

I mean, it's hard to overstate how overworked the workforce was before we had this, this rule I was reading about, steel workers in particular would work 12 hour shifts and they would alternate eventually from daytime shifts to nighttime shifts. And so when they made the change from one to the other, they would just work 24 hours. I mean, the notion of working 24 hours in a steel mill is totally crazy. You know, it was routine that people would work 12 hour days and then a half a day on Saturday, 70 to 80 hours a week was not uncommon at all for anybody working at the time.

[A]

You'd hire people into your workforce and you would work them to the bone. And it was Samuel Gompers of the AFL who became really one of the first major champions of a limited. Of an eight hour workday. And even in the 1880s, they wanted an eight hour workday. And if you watch the Gilded Age, this came up because Train Daddy, the main, the husband, I don't remember any of their names, but Train Daddy at one point is trying to suppress a strike. And like, I guess the audience is supposed to sympathize with him because at one point he doesn't have the police fire on striking workers. And like that makes him a good person. I don't know. That show has really weird sympathies for the rich. However, what they are chanting is 8, 8, 8, 8 hours of sleep. 8 hours of work. 8 hours for what you like. And that came out of Gompers in the labor movement of the 1800s.

[B]

I mean, I read that even came back to the post Civil War era with Ira Steward publishing the eight Hour Movement. I mean, it was. Yes. Like people had come out of working for the war effort and were just burned out.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's not. Gompers didn't invent it. He was incorporating it into the labor movement. That part of labor contracts weren't just for pay, but had to be for a limited work day. And it starts to get popular kind of through the industrialized era as more people are subjected to just abysmal work schedules.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it isn't until really till the Depression. Right. And it doesn't become implemented until it seems like we're trying to spread jobs around. Right. Rather than try to work a bunch of people 16 hours a day, you should have twice as many people work eight hours a day.

[A]

So Fair Labor Standards Act 1938 is a federal law. It prohibits and regulates child labor. It sets a minimum wage and it sets overtime provisions. It standardizes the work week at 44 and then I think it phases into 40. That act was for all workers, not women and children. And in the 40 years before that, labor organizers and the unions would focus on men. And legislation was just about regulating women and children because women and children were seen as unorganizable in like, the labor sense.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And in fact, there's like these really detailed histories about how the Fair Labor Standards act was deeply opposed by some of the largest labor leaders at the time because they did not want the government to give you labor rights. They wanted to earn labor rights for their members. And the official union labor movement has, like, very interesting relationship with the Fair Labor Standards act because it is the first federal law that to regulate labor and it does not exclude men. It is for all workers, not just women and children. And we think of that as natural.

[B]

But it was a big change.

[A]

Turning point. Yeah. So before that, the wage and hour provisions that had been won from unions were for their members. And then this made it an actual federal floor for all workers covered by the legislation.

[B]

Yeah. Not everybody was covered by the legislation, right?

[A]

No. When the Fair Labor Standards act was introduced, it was really watered down from what people wanted in terms of the minimum wage, in terms of the length of the work week, and in terms of which industries were covered by it.

[B]

Railroad workers are still not covered by it.

[A]

Yeah. And it expanded over time. So 38 starts at this, like, nugget of we have made a federal law that regulates wages and hours of workers, not by gender or age in certain industries. And then for the next 40 years, it just continues to expand to get better minimum wages, cover more workers, cover more industries. But the Fair Labor Standards act is like both a high water and low water mark in terms of the protection of workers. But it institutes overtime, which says that if you work more than the standard work week, you have to pay time and a half for your workers.

[B]

And you know what I think, because I live in California, where we have a law that sets the limit at eight hours a day. But this is. It's a week, right. It's 40 hours a week. So you could do 10 hours for four days a week and not get overtime, or you could do three and a half days at 12 hours a day or something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I also read that Project 2025 was like, well, we should just make that over a month instead of a week.

[A]

Well, the alternative would have been an actual prohibition. Like, in order to regulate the work week, you are not allowed to employ people past 40 hours. So instead you can employ people past 40 hours with a penalty. And the penalty is meant to encourage you to keep the work week at 40 hours. So then you'll have to hire more people and have standard shifts. This was a massive win. And it was both preceded by a drop in the workday associated with the Great Depression, preceded by a drop in the workday that unions had negotiated for their own members. And then it was followed by a absolute transformation of what it meant to be, say a production worker in the US in terms of how many hours you worked.

[B]

Okay, so this is 1938. We get the FLSA and it creates this sort of penalty for overworking people. But it does open a back door. Right. Which is this like this exemption. And that's kind of like the whole story to me about overtime.

[A]

Yes. In the 1938 legislation, there is a phrase that bona fide. They use the word bonafide. It's section 13A1 that the minimum wage and overtime provisions do not apply to bonafide executives, administrators and professionals.

[B]

So this is the broadly thought of as sort of the white collar worker exemption. Right.

[A]

This, the idea is actually they had no idea what it meant at the time.

[B]

Of course not.

[A]

I mean, you can read about this from the Congressional Research Service. The, the first guy who's in charge of coming up with what bona fide executive, administrative and professional means is like. So they, they go through. These are the EAP, executive administrative, professional, the EAP professions. So everybody is subject to a 40 hour work week, everyone is subject to overtime, unless you are an eap. So they have to define what EAP is, huh?

[B]

We're still fighting about this, right?

[A]

Still fighting on it. So I'm going to try to give you a condensed history of eap. This is the exception to overtime. So law passes in 38, it's going to go into effect. There's a guy whose job it becomes to define eap, and he says an executive is someone whose primary job is management. We're going to say administrator and executive are basically the same thing. And then a professional is someone who has intellectual and varied work. Yeah. So that's their kind of first EAP. And over the course of the next like 15 years, keep in mind there's a war in between when no one really cares about this. But like in the years afterwards, they try to come up with what executive, administrative and professional means. And we arrive at a, starts as a two part test, ends up as a three part test. So in order to be exempted, first part, you have to be a salaried worker, second part, you have to make a minimum amount of Money that would put you into the EAP class. And your duties have to be basically of the either management or intellectual and varied type. Sure. So you have to be paid a certain way, paid a certain amount and do certain things. And only in those circumstances can you get out of minimum wage and overtime.

[B]

Right. Remember when I got my first job, I was like, I don't understand what this means. Being non exempt just seemed like the biggest double negative.

[A]

So probably almost everyone listening is exempt. You are exempt from the minimum wage and overtime provisions of the Fair Labor Standards act because you're a white collar. Like it or not, because you're a white collar employee. So through the 40s, 50s, 60s and through the 70s, there, every time they try to update this definition, everybody loses their. Like, workers lose their, employers lose their. Everybody is mad about this definition all of the time. But Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to come up with a test of what does it mean to be exempt from Fair Labor Standards Act.

[B]

Are you exempt from everything in the Fair Labor Standards act or just overtime?

[A]

Overtime and minimum wage. Okay, so in 75, they're like, all right, we have to do this again. We're going to come up with an interim measure, an interim rule, and then we're going to go back and revisit it. And right after that, inflation spikes. And within the Carter administration, there's a fight about whether or not we should raise the overtime exemption limit or if that will put inflationary pressure into the economy and shouldn't do it. So they put it on hold. They don't get to address it in the second term because they lose and Reagan becomes president. Over the course of the Reagan administration, any attempt to raise the overtime exemption is thwarted and it's put on hold and it's paused. Same thing with Clinton. He says he's going to touch it. He never does. It's not until 2004 that the interim overtime exemption salary level is addressed. And over the course of that 30 year period, it goes from around 2/3 of salaried workers in the US are subject to overtime. It falls to around 8% of workers failing the test and getting overtime.

[B]

And when we say get overtime, that doesn't even mean they actually get it. It just means that they, if they work more than 40 hours a week, they would have to be paid overtime. Yes, right.

[A]

It is really, I think it's hard to convey just how like revolutionarily bad this was in our economy because it, it is as white collar work is growing, right?

[B]

As growing. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like service Work, white collar work. People are moving out of the factories. They're moving into retail and service and in management and professional business services, administration of various kinds. Yes. And all of that grows essentially outside of the umbrella of FLSA protection as opposed to underneath it.

[B]

What's pretty amazing, too, is, you know, in 2004, that salary threshold was $23,660. Right. And so if you made $23,661, you were no longer able to get overtime if your employer didn't want to pay you that. And that number stayed frozen for 16 years.

[A]

Oh, the number was frozen between 1975 and 2004. And then in 2004, they raised it to 22. Whatever. $3,000.

[B]

$23,660.

[A]

Yeah, 23,600. Sorry, I can't read my notes because the sunglasses, I keep trying to find it on the page, but I can't. But, I mean, it was like it's frozen in time between 1970 nominal terms frozen for 30 years, and when they move it up, it's still below the poverty level.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

And it was. I mean, credit to the Bush administration. At least they raised it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The only Democratic president in that time period had eight years to do so and did not. So we. It's not just that the standard was left to erode. It was that growth occurred outside of it. And so now we have a cultural like now, two generations later. Culturally, most American workers have no idea that even if your salary, you should be subject to overtime. And it should be rare for you to work more than 40 hours in a week. It should not be normal that you work 45 or 50 hours or that you come in on Saturday or Sunday or you answer your email all the time. There is a version of the world where that's not normal and that's not the one we have, in part because this policy was not addressed. But to take it back to our timeline, 2004, the Bush administration raises it, and it goes from around $8,000 to around $23,000. When Obama becomes president, he champions this policy. The Obama administration champions it, and the Biden administration does as well. Federal rulemaking takes a long time, but they wanted to update the federal rules without having to have Congress update the legislation, and they did, and it went through the rulemaking process. And by the end of the Biden administration, they get the standard up to the equivalent of $35,568, aka $684 a week. That's what it is in 2019, Biden sets into place a two year increase that will by 2026 raise it to around 60,000. So it's going to go from 35,000 to 60,000. Anyone who makes less than $60,000 a year in the US is going to get overtime, which means you're going to have radical changes. And how these people are employed in terms of how many hours they have to work. Like a week after Trump WINS Reelection in 2024, a federal judge says that it's not allowed. And the new Trump administration is basically like they've appealed it, but they're not fighting the appeal. So this was like a massive victory. And I mean like talk about snatching, you know.

[B]

Yes and no, because this had happened before. This is what happened to Obama. And when in the Obama administration where they tried to raise it to almost $48,000. And I think it was the same court, right?

[A]

Probably the same judge is a guy

[B]

in Texas, maybe the same judge guy in East Texas who says, but he goes back to this stupid three part rule, right? And says, well, you can't just change the salary level, you know, because now you're ignoring the duties and job role piece of how we calculate who's going to get overtime, right?

[A]

I worked for a lefty labor think tank in 2008 and they were absolute champions of this. Like they believed very strongly in this. And I remember when I got the employment contract, it included overtime. I made over the overtime provision of $23,000, but they felt that like I was a research assistant, so I should have been a classified employee, non exempt. And that's how I was paid. I was paid hourly. And I remember the first time I got overtime I was like, yo, this is awesome. This is straight up awesome. But I was 22 working in D.C. and I had easily the best job out of everyone I knew because all of these like 22 to 25 year old junior staffers working at think tanks, working at research firms, working at consulting firms, they all worked horrible hours. And I would be like, well, happy hour for lefty labor leaders starts at 5:01 and y' all can join me, you're done. But I like, I'm so lucky I had this job. I am so lucky I had this job because I'm in my first job, first real job that's full time, that has a salary. I would log my hours in and out every day. And on Friday afternoon the woman who ran HR would say like, you need to clock out by three.

[B]

Oh, because you'd already Worked too many

[A]

hours that week because I already worked 40 hours. And I remember I told my boss that I hadn't finished what they had given me. And she just said, katherine, if you can't finish the tasks that are assigned to you, either we haven't told you how to do them correctly, or we haven't given you the appropriate amount of time. And if you can't do the job, that's management's fault, not your fault. And I was like, oh, whoa, really? So you, you can see why when I got my second job, I actually, me and management clashed all the time. I'd be like, yo, yo, you are not doing job. But I, I think it was just like, this is a basic dignity. Like, you are 22, you're an idiot. You have no idea what you're doing. We gave you a task your first month on the job. If you can't finish it in time, we haven't given you the support, or we're managing our people incorrectly. I'm, like, gifted in life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then I am now 20 years deep into thinking that that is the rule and not the exception. There was a gift, but not a

[B]

gift most people got. Yeah.

[A]

Not a gift that most people got. And imagine how, like, your work life would be different if the expectation was, I work 40 hours, and if I don't, it's because my manager's doing a bad job and not because I'm not doing a good job.

[B]

So basically, we wind up in this situation where there's still this two to three part test, but really the salary test is the one doing all of the heavy lifting. Yep. And so when the salary threshold goes up, then what happens? I mean, isn't that essentially what this paper studied?

[A]

Yeah. So this is one of my papers that have come out in economics in the last 10 years. This one is a personal favorite.

[B]

It's a good one.

[A]

It's a good one. So from 1975 to 2004, the salary cap to get overtime erodes. In 2004, the Bush administration increases the salary exemption. Does this actually make a difference? Did this matter in the economy? I mean, did people actually get overtime? Well, that's not what they found. What the 2004 cap created was a bunch of people who used to be not eligible to get overtime, and now they were.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So what their employers did was basically decide that they were all managers so they still wouldn't have to pay them overtime. So instead of being a store assistant, I become a store manager, and I don't give overtime, and they did this systematically. And this paper looks at the systematic managerial titling of workers in our economy in order to avoid overtime. So the most egregious example came from the Family Dollar store. So it gave a very large share of its employees the title of store manager. And their job would be, like, sweeping stocking shelves. Like, you are the store manager in charge of shelves. You're the store manager in charge of sweeping.

[B]

Yeah. And they were working like 60 to 90 hours a week and only doing, like, five hours of. Of anything that could even remotely be constituted a management activity. Yeah.

[A]

So they lost their court case. Family Dollar lost. And they had to pay $35 million in unpaid overtime to 1500 employees. That's a lot of money. $35 million to 15.

[B]

Is that punitive or is that just. That's actually just how much money the wage theft had been.

[A]

No, that was pay due.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Family Dollar was not alone in this. All kinds of companies started to inflate the titles of their basically hourly shift workers in order to keep them from getting overtime. So let me find some of the titles. This is the best part.

[B]

Now, my favorite is Director of First impressions.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Director of first Impressions. So if you work at a place like a Petco and your job is to wash the dogs, are you a groomer or are you a grooming manager? You work at a food cart in a large office building and you become the food expectations manager. I mean, these are absolutely ridiculous titles.

[B]

A reservations clerk was the lead reservationist.

[A]

Oh, the lead reservationist. But like a hostess at a restaurant would be the director of food impressions. Yeah. A greeter, like a Walmart greeter would be a manager of consumer expectations.

[B]

Yeah. These are. These are crazy.

[A]

These are ridiculous. But this is what employers did to avoid having their employees be subject to overtime so that they could still work them for more hours. This is gross. The idea that someone would be making $20,000 a year and they would be a director of first impressions so you could work them 50 hours or 60 hours or 90 hours a week without penalty is gross. We do have a law to prevent it, and it has fallen into disuse.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's such abuse. And I don't think that I realize that unpaid overtime wages are like 80% of the wage theft FLSA cases.

[A]

Overtime is everything when it comes to labor standards. Because this is. If I can pay someone $20,000 a year and not be charged when I work them 60 hours a week instead of. Of 40, I am getting 20 hours of free labor. Off of that person.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

So there's wage theft, like the actual wage theft, where people are not paid overtime and they're subject to it. And then there's the wage theft of we should be making overtime If I work 41 hours in a week. And every hour after 40, they are stealing money from you.

[B]

Totally. Like, they're stealing. Yeah, they're stealing your full hourly every hour. Beyond that, it reminds me of. Oh, what's that movie?

[A]

Office Space.

[B]

Office Space. Yeah. I'm gonna need you to come in on Saturday. You know, like the. The idea that you're salaried and therefore you're at the whim of your bosses to come in and work additional hours on Saturday.

[A]

Yeah, that's free labor. They couldn't ask you to work on a Saturday. They couldn't ask you to stay late. And Every hour past 40 is labor that they're getting for you from free because they're avoiding labor regulation. Yeah. It took me a while to get there, but I think we finally got to the point that I wanted to make, which was one of the reasons why Americans don't earn that much money is because they give a lot of it away for free.

[B]

Yeah, well. And they don't know that they're giving it away for free.

[A]

It's been 50 years since we have had robust overtime enforcement for white collar workers. I heard someone once refer to this as the middle class's minimum wage. The protection you need is for time at work to make sure they're not sapping more from you. Because If I make $50,000 a year and work 40 hours a week, that's a very different job than If I make $50,000 a year and work 60 hours a week. And my relative hourly pay is a lot lower on a salary, the more hours I work. And so this is. I don't know, I think on some issues, I can be really centrist and be like, I'm a capitalist. I love capitalism.

[B]

We can.

[A]

On other issues, I feel like I'm like, you know, almost leaning towards Republican on certain things. But on this one, I am like I am to the left of Vladimir Lenin. Everybody needs overtime. The work week is 40 hours. This is ridiculous. You know, on this show, we like to talk about one problem and solution at a time. This one's both. It's right there in front of us. We want to have normal work lives.

[B]

Yeah, we want to.

[A]

And we have the legislative power to do so. And we've had administrations, successive administrations, who have tried to get this protection for workers but it's so like behind the scenes now. It's been two generations. Like we have gotten so divorced from this mindset of it doesn't matter if I work in an office, I still deserve.

[B]

Yeah, your time is your time.

[A]

Yeah, your time is your time and they're stealing it. We keep saying overtime and we keep saying overtime, but really this is about limiting the work week. How many hours are you allowed to work? We have one mechanism for enforcing it, it's overtime. We've let that mechanism fly. You work all the damn time. You don't have limitations on your workweek anymore.

[B]

Yeah, I thought the other interesting part of that study was that they also looked at where this tidal inflation was most common and it really was linked to essentially enforcement places like the Dollar Store that were nationwide. They pushed to see what they could get away with the most in states where they knew that the wage and hour or the Bureau of Labor in that state wasn't going to do anything about it.

[A]

Yeah, some states have lax labor enforcement. Some states have super strict labor enforcement. And they knew exactly what to do. They pushed the envelope in the places where they thought they could get away with it. And I think the key part of that study was they only did that for jobs that fell just over the salary cap.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So if the salary cap is 22,000, you would see the bump to director of first impression came from people who made 23, not 21. It was absolutely a tool to get over the cap and to get around having to pay overtime and limit the work week. And what I thought was really interesting is that they took the time to be like and just so you know, they didn't have better careers. It wasn't as if they actually becoming a director of first impressions was actually putting you on the career track to succeed at this company. It was just a way to get around work weak cats.

[B]

In fact, I think they found that it costs them higher turnover. Right. But they don't care. Right. Because they may save, they save 13% on compensation, but they lose 4 or 5% in turnover. They're still coming out ahead.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean who cares if people quit all the time if you can underpay them? As long as underpayment is cheaper than turnover, why would I care? So you could say, this doesn't apply to me. I'm not a low wage worker. I'm not at a family dollar, I'm not at a petco. This isn't me. Like I work in an office. Maybe this really complicated three part test of white collar salaried with the income limit and the duties test. You're like, look, I don't get it. It doesn't apply to me. I'll put it to you in this way. Pretend that in 1975, the Federal Government eradicated the overtime provision and said if you are a white collar worker, you are not subject to overtime. And that said, it was just a firm decision. We're not going to have overtime for white collar workers. Do you think American workers will have a longer or shorter work week in 2026? The answer is, obviously we're going to work more. They didn't make it so clear. It was. Instead, they have a three part test that's kind of complicated and one part needs to be addressed and they make it into an interim ruling and they decide to get back to it later, but they don't get back to it later. I mean, the way that it happened is complicated, but the effect is the same. White collar work used to be subject to overtime and now it is not. And you work a lot of hours and if you had overtime, you wouldn't work as many hours. That's it. It's the end of the story.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Could we talk just for a second about the no tax on overtime situation? Like what? What a mess. Yeah.

[A]

So in theory you could say like, oh, no tax on overtime. That's helping workers who get overtime. Like that's helping the working class.

[B]

No, first of all, most people aren't getting overtime.

[A]

Most people aren't getting overtime. That's number one. What it did was it allowed workers when they filed their federal income taxes to deduct from their income the bonus portion of overtime paid if it came from FLSA enforcement.

[B]

So in other words, you make $20 an hour, but this week you work 10 hours of overtime at $30 an hour. You could only really deduct the bonus. $10. You earned $300 extra, but you would only deduct $100.

[A]

So I hate this rule because it's basically subsidizing the use of overtime.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That defeats the whole damn point. Like, we want overtime to be okay. We want overtime to be incredibly expensive

[B]

for employers and punitive for overworking workers. Right.

[A]

You work someone 60 hours a week.

[B]

Week.

[A]

You're an. Like, you need to. You're. We're gonna soak you so you don't work people this long. It is not fair to do this. So we are going to set up this penalty so that you don't work people past 40 hours a week. And we have a standard 40 hour work week. This tax, no tax deduction for overtime is doing is subsidizing the penalty to reduce it. Because now your workers, you're basically like,

[B]

it's like, it's this crazy like backwards incentive.

[A]

You're incentivizing employees to disregard the overtime, to disregard the work week.

[B]

You're incentivizing employers.

[A]

Yeah, but you're incentivizing employees too because you're trying to tell employees like, oh, like we'll make it more worth your while by having this big deduction as a way to stretch the work.

[B]

It's true. It winds up being this kind of collusion where it's like we'll hire fewer workers, but you'll get to take home more of your paycheck now. Right. It's just bonkers. It's 180 degrees from the idea of penalizing companies for overworking their employees. It's now we're going to subsidize it.

[A]

This is like the crowning achievement of eroding the success of having a 40 hour work week is a tax deduction for overtime on your income filing. It's not going to go to most low wage workers. It's just going to encourage people to blow past the 40 hour work week.

[B]

I mean, and that doesn't even get into the mess of no employers were ready to report this to the irs. The rules about reporting these deductions have been unclear. And so far it seems like 20% of filers took this deduction because there's basically no way to check it. And it's almost twice as much as anybody anticipated. It's going to be like $50 billion a year that we're going to give away in this deduction.

[A]

This is basically taking two employees that make the same amount of money, but one of them makes it working 40 hours a week and the other one makes it like by stretching their income over the overtime provisions. And the government is like, you know, which one's better? We're going to give the tax bonus to the person who works longer than 40 hours. Right. You're putting your thumb on the scale for we want to encourage people who are working longer as opposed to having normal work weeks. This is putting the weight of the federal tax system on the side of working longer.

[B]

God, the more I read about this, the more I don't know, the more crazy making it was. It's just at the time when I remember reading about the no tax and overtime and no tax on tips, I was like, this is just a political sop. And I'm frustrated with that. But when I really thought about what it was incentivizing, I thought, this is really disgusting.

[A]

Sometimes I think it's helpful to think about it. In olden times, like, Andrew Carnegie has a monopoly on steel, and he works people 80 hours a week in a steel mill, and he convinces the federal government to help his steel workers with taxes for the 70 to 80 hours works for the week. You would be like, yo, man, you are gross. Build libraries, give your money away. You're an awful person. But instead it's like, oh, let's use the tax system to like, collude with people who overwork their employees. Like, no, the whole point was so that we get to have lives and not work all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's because of my amazing first employer that I feel so strongly about this. But I also think that this is one of these. This is something that could affect you that you probably don't realize that this could be a difference maker in your life.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I don't know. So much of public policy, so much of economic policy is really thinking about people at the bott. And so I think you get programmed to think that there's very little the government could do to help you at a relatively cushy white collar job that has health insurance and retirement that would make your life easier. Of like, no, give me like six months, sister, I promise you, the federal government could do a lot to make your life better. And it starts with labor laws that are so Radical. They're from 1938. Like, come on, like, how radical can it be as a law if it's from 1938?

[B]

Yeah. Well, so here's my question, right? Given what this judge in East Texas keeps doing, which is to say you can't just raise the salary threshold. You have to do something about the two thirds or other. Half the duties test.

[A]

The duties test.

[B]

But we could fix the duties test, right? Like with an update to the fs

[A]

Or Congress just amends the fable. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not like it's a constitutional amendment and it's just a law.

[A]

It's just a law. So. So, so right now, all of the changes in this test are coming from administrative rulemaking from the Department of Labor that at various points, judges, this one guy keeps striking down as, like, it's beyond the scope of what you're allowed to do. Given the legislation. Given the legislation is the key part. Congress meets, they pass a new Fair Labor Standards act amendments it increases the minimum wage to $15 an hour. And then it says an oh by the. By section 13 a one that says who are the people exempt from the minimum wage and overtime? Like they could set it at whatever they wanted.

[B]

This doesn't seem like a really hard fix.

[A]

I know people who want to use this similar philosophy to mandate that Americans get 10 days of vacation every year because that will also increase employment because you're just taking a bite out of the total hours and they have to hire more people. Just kind of a similar. How much is an employer allowed to sack gap of your time?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let's just put that down on paper. But there are still a bunch of like conservative neoliberal economists who would tell you that I would break the economy if I got my way because I would make people not work 50 hours and they'd have to work just 40.

[B]

Yeah, I, you know, I do think that it. The other thing that's skewed this is that people don't want to hire more workers because often because of healthcare and things that they do provide. Right. So they would rather pay the overtime than at another person getting benefits. So many things are so screwed up because of benefits.

[A]

So many things are so screwed up because of benefits perks. So I will say when the Fair Labor Standards act was, I think it was either passed or being debated. FDR had this quote that I have always really loved. Do not let any calamity howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day tell you that a wage of $11 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all industries. Yeah.

[B]

Seriously. Yeah.

[A]

I would love to hear a man who has enough personal wealth that he built himself a rocket to go into space for fun and then later sent his fiance there because she also wanted fun and made it into like a girls trip. Tell me that his business model will break if no one in his corporate office is allowed to work more than 40 hours a week. Like, oh, bet on it. In that case, you don't get to take a rocket. You just get to take a hot air balloon and go up real high and come back down. You don't actually get to go into space.

[B]

Too bad.

[A]

Oh no. I bet we still have an economy. So cheers to putting CEOs in a hot air balloon instead of rockets. Calamity howling executive. What a great term phrase.

[B]

It's pretty great. It's pretty great.

[A]

He's not even like my top five favorite presidents, but the man had a way with words.

[B]

All right, we'll be we're going to take a break and we'll be right back with executive orders and spiritual sponsors. Executive orders. What's your executive order this week?

[A]

Okay, so mine is in theme of the show, similar to the. I think you should have a billboard above every business that uses child labor and gets busted. I think that every worker should get to wear a badge of when they enter their 41st hour of work. Work for the week. So once you go past 40, it's either like a sash or like a crown or some kind of name tag of like, I'm past 40 hours, special hat.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I mean, like, can you imagine if you're in like an emergency room and there's two doctors and one's like, I'm on my 67th hour of work for the past three days. It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. That one, the other one. But yeah, I think there should be some kind of like, public signaling mechanism of like, I'm working more than 40 hours so people can see how ridiculous it is that we are broadly expected to work 50 hour weeks all the time.

[B]

Yeah. My executive order is more petty, which is I believe that some percentage of new cars, when they make them, that they have to be in a color that's not just on the, like, black to white spectrum. You know, the idea that you've rolled out a car in five colors, but those colors are all black, white, silver, gray, onyx, storm cloud. Like, God forbid you want a car that's not, you know, monochrome.

[A]

I endorse this. Like, we need more. We need more car colors.

[B]

Gosh. Yeah. Okay. Spiritual sponsors.

[A]

My spiritual sponsor for today's episode is awesome first bosses. Because my life, my whole work life is better because I had good first bosses.

[B]

Nice, Nice. My spiritual sponsor staying in the vehicular is my E bike. I have a Faraday e bike. It's 10 years old. It is still running. I just got new brakes on it. You know, I live on top of a fairly steep hill and it's like. It's like being a superhero going up the hill on that. On that E bike. It is honestly probably the. One of my favorite belongings is that bike. That and these sunglasses.

[A]

All right, thank you for putting your sunglasses back on for the end. The Optimist Economy podcast is edited by Sophie Lamond. And our video production for social media is by Andy Robinson snapping him out. Video clips from the show for you to share are on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and LinkedIn. And you can buy T shirts head hats and tote bags on our website, optimisteconomy.com and optimisteconomy.com is beta testing a new feature that has the transcripts for each episode that you can pull out a quote and either copy it into a text message or share it on social media. We're beta testing this, y' all tell us what part doesn't work.

[B]

Is it live? Is it live already? Or it will be.

[A]

I think so. Yeah, sure, it will be.

[B]

By the time this airs. If you're on substack, either as a free or paid subscriber to Optimist Economy, you can join our chat room. And if you have the means to contribute at whatever level is comfortable for you, we always appreciate it. Click [e-mail] and if you were in

[A]

your 41st hour of work for the week, go home.

[B]

That's right.