C7 / HBO Ep 3: “On Location”

Summary

Origins with James Andrew Miller: “HBO: Present, Past, and Future” – Episode 3: “On Location”

Release Date: March 30, 2022

In Episode 3 of Origins Chapter 7, titled “HBO: Present, Past, and Future,” host Jim Miller delves deep into the intricate workings of HBO, exploring its storied past, vibrant present, and promising future. This episode features insightful conversations with key figures behind some of HBO’s most iconic productions, including executive producers David Simon, Nina Noble, and Prentice Penny. Through candid discussions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of HBO’s unique culture, creative processes, and commitment to quality storytelling.

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A Legacy of Trust and Excellence

David Simon, renowned for creating The Wire, shares his perspective on the foundational elements that have made his collaborations with HBO so successful. Emphasizing the importance of preparedness and fiscal responsibility, Simon reflects on the disciplined environment of The Wire:

“The Wire was a great training ground for people. We were able to really mold a crew that came ready every day. And I think that made a big difference.”
(00:03)

Simon highlights how this disciplined approach ensured that every expenditure was justified, fostering a culture where creativity thrived without unnecessary indulgence.

Nina Noble, Simon’s long-time producing partner, underscores the significance of trust within HBO’s ecosystem. She describes HBO as a network that empowers creators, allowing them to bring their visions to life without micromanagement:

“Trust is a vital ingredient for any network, but particularly so at HBO, where creators and producers are made to feel largely empowered to bring their visions to the screen without being micromanaged.”
(06:27)

Noble’s pragmatic approach to production finances and her reputation as a reliable executive have been pivotal in maintaining the financial health of Simon’s projects.

Navigating Change and Maintaining Integrity

As the television landscape evolves, Nina Noble discusses how HBO adapts to new leadership while preserving the integrity of existing projects. She emphasizes the importance of experienced producers in guiding new executives:

“We sort of became the training ground for new executives because we had proven ourselves in terms of being creatively and financially responsible.”
(11:17)

David Simon echoes this sentiment, noting the exhaustion that comes with constantly onboarding new executives. However, strategic decisions, such as consolidating production teams for Plot Against America and The Deuce, have streamlined operations and enhanced efficiency:

“When we did Plot Against America and The Deuce Season 3, we did both shows simultaneously. And at that point I said, I have to have the same set of people on both shows.”
(12:07)

Prentice Penny and the Creative Freedom of Insecure

Prentice Penny, the showrunner behind HBO’s acclaimed series Insecure, provides an intimate look into the creative process and the supportive relationship between the showrunner and HBO executives. Drawing parallels between creative endeavors and culinary artistry, Penny emphasizes the magic that happens when creators are free to experiment without fear of judgment:

“There’s something really special about having something just being creative without a judgment yet.”
(00:25)

Penny credits HBO’s collaborative environment for allowing Insecure to flourish authentically, especially in portraying the nuanced experiences of Black individuals. He discusses the importance of authenticity and cultural integrity in storytelling:

“We're protective of the culture. We're wanting to be super authentic in every way possible.”
(Prentice Penny, 18:52)

Penny also reflects on the pivotal moments when Insecure resonated with audiences, transforming from a fledgling project into a cultural phenomenon. He attributes this success to HBO’s flexible and conversational approach to feedback, contrasting it with the rigid note-driven processes of traditional networks:

“In HBO, things became conversations. It became like, let’s figure it out together. It became like, let’s figure it out together.”
(Prentice Penny, 24:15)

Championing Diversity and Inclusion

The episode also highlights HBO’s commitment to diversity and inclusion, both in front of and behind the camera. David Simon proudly acknowledges how his team integrated these values effortlessly:

“We sort of became the training ground for new executives because we had proven ourselves in terms of being creatively and financially responsible.”
(David Simon, 15:35)

Nina Noble adds that HBO’s inclusive practices were part of their workflow, long before such values became industry standards. This proactive stance has not only enriched HBO’s content but also set a benchmark for other networks:

“Now, just recently, is the first time that people are actually starting to look at all the stuff we’ve done in that area and wanting to become more like that.”
(Nina Noble, 15:35)

Concluding Insights

Episode 3 of Origins Chapter 7 offers a profound exploration of HBO’s enduring legacy and its forward-thinking approach to content creation. Through the experiences of David Simon, Nina Noble, and Prentice Penny, listeners gain valuable insights into the balance of creative freedom and financial responsibility that defines HBO’s success. The episode underscores the network’s unwavering commitment to quality, diversity, and authentic storytelling, ensuring its position as a cultural juggernaut in the ever-evolving television landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• David Simon: “The Wire was a great training ground for people... there wasn’t a lot of indulgence of expenditures that didn’t show up on the screen.” (00:03)
• Nina Noble: “Trust is a vital ingredient for any network, but particularly so at HBO...” (06:27)
• Prentice Penny: “We’re protective of the culture. We’re wanting to be super authentic in every way possible.” (18:52)
• Prentice Penny: “It became like, let’s figure it out together. It became like, let’s figure it out together.” (24:15)
• David Simon: “We sort of became the training ground for new executives because we had proven ourselves in terms of being creatively and financially responsible.” (15:35)

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intricate dynamics behind one of television’s most influential networks. Whether you’re a fan of The Wire, Insecure, or simply passionate about quality storytelling, “On Location” provides an enriching narrative that celebrates HBO’s monumental impact on the entertainment industry.

Transcript

[David Simon]

The Wire was a great training ground for people. You know, we were able to really mold a crew that came ready every day. And I think that made a big difference. And we had a culture where we didn't. There wasn't a lot of indulgence of expenditures that didn't show up on the screen. And that came from the producers, but also to the actors and everyone else working on the show.

[Prentice Penny]

If you were a chef and you're kind of creating a dish for the first time and nobody really knows what this dish is yet, there's something really special about having something just being creative without a judgment yet. But I think what made Insecure feel that way, I think was still having that feeling of being the most creative you feel you can be was also understanding that as black people making this kind of show with what it was kind of trying to do in. In this very specific way that it's not supposed to succeed makes it even more that way.

[Nina Noble]

Honestly, I'm surprised we've operated this way as long as we have. Call me the wandering Jew I got one suitcase packed and I've felt that way for a decade now. And partly a function of not having audience, at least not having audience at the time of broadcast. At any moment, I expect this dynamic, this sinecure that we have at HBO to be vulnerable.

[Jim Miller]

Welcome Back to Origins HBO present, Past and Future, a presentation of C13 originals, a Cadence 13 studio. I'm Jim Miller, and this is episode three on location. After hearing from HBO executives Casey Bloys, Carolyn Strauss and Chris Albrecht in episode one and Amy Gravett, Francesca Orsi and Nina Rosenstein in episode two, we're going to change our POV now and take a look at HBO from the eyes and mind of executive producers David Simon, the father of the Wire, Treme and several other HBO classics, his producing partner Nina Noble and Prentice Penny, who served as the showrunner on HBO's Issa Rae hit Insecure. David Simon is one of the most important and prolific writers in HBO history. After graduating from the University of Maryland, he Simon worked in journalism, displaying a unique voice and an unrelenting work ethic. As a reporter for the Baltimore Sun. In 1991, he published his first book, A Year on the Killing Streets, to hugely enthusiastic reviews and went on to work with Baltimore legend Barry Levinson on the hit NBC adaptation of that show. Simon began his HBO relationship in 2000 with the Corner before creating and serving as head writer and showrunner of the Wire, a dazzling drama that is commonly listed as one of the top 10 dramas ever. The show ran on HBO from 2002 through 2008. Simon was named a MacArthur fellow in 2010 and has stayed at HBO for numerous other projects including Treme, Show Me a Hero, Generation Kill, the adaptation of Philip Roth's Plot against America and the Deuce. One of my favorite David Simon and HBO stories is revolves around HBO's decision to cancel the Wire after only three seasons. Chris Albrecht was running programming at the time and it was his then deputy Carolyn Strauss who had the job of informing Simon that HBO was going to end the show. Strauss arranged for a meeting between Simon and Albrecht and it would last for more than an hour and a half.

[Nina Noble]

I don't think I understood on the day how canceled we were. Carolyn wanted to give me my chance to argue. She knew on some level I needed to vent even if it wasn't going to go well. But I thought I went in with like doubts and probable cancellation but that it was an open ended meeting. So I think I may have been a little more optimistic than the moment deserved. Yeah, he listened from his point of view. We were emerging from season three with the best reviews we'd had. The Barksdale season had seemingly concluded there was an optimal ending there if you wanted it, or a plausible ending anyway. And he said, look, you know, we'll stay in business with you, we'll give you the money for something else. What's the next thing you want to do? Because I had to do it two years in a row. I had to beg for renewal. But I would say he just listened to the content. And to his credit, Ed Burns had given us. Ed Burns wanted to write a novel about his time teaching and the stuff of season four of the school kids. He basically volunteered that and said, well, let him try this on for size and see if they bite. Because we were gonna do the education thing anyway. But he now started feeding me a bunch of stuff to go in the room with. So I started talking about the four kids and the meeting went long. You know, at some point I looked over and Carolyn was like smiling at me like, I can't believe we're still in it. It's been 25 minutes, you know, but that's what happened. And. And then of course after season four, he wanted to cancel it again because he needed the money for production. He was always pressed for money for the production pie.

[Jim Miller]

In 1998, HBO aired its first big scale miniseries from the Earth to the Moon. It was originally budgeted at roughly $40 million, but the network followed Tom Hanks passion and wound up spending more than 60 million. Band of Brothers, the Pacific, the Sopranos, and many other HBO projects would be beyond costly as well. But David Simon's HBO shows have proceeded down a different financial path, in large part due to the acumen of his right hand, executive producer Nina Noble. Saunter down the halls of HBO Talk with their production experts, and you're bound to hear the word trust a lot. Trust is a vital ingredient for any network, but particularly so at hbo, where creators and producers are made to feel largely empowered to bring their visions to the screen without being micromanaged. While there is obvious financial supervision, the network wants to be in business with partners who are financially responsible and not spending their days desperately trying to exact more funds. Nina Noble doesn't play such games. She has been working at HBO alongside David Simon for more than 20 years and is part of an MVP triumphant of female powerhouse executive producers at the network, which includes Eileen Landrus of Sopranos fame and Bernadette Caulfield, who operated as field marshal on Game of Thrones. Think of all three women as CEOs of these shows. Not in the writers room, but but often everywhere else. Noble is known for being a woman of her word and a complex problem solver. You can say she's in the solutions business, and that makes television life infinitely more agreeable for David Simon.

[David Simon]

I think for us personally, it's sort of a sense of honor that you do what you say you're gonna do. But I always felt like it made it an easier decision to pick up the show when it wasn't, you know, oh, my gosh, look how much this thing costs. Is it really worth it? That was never part of the conversation with our shows, but I think we expect a lot of people. Honestly, people could go work somewhere else and make the same or more money. Now they work with us because that's what they choose to do and they know what we stand for. But people appreciated a way of working where their opinions were valued or at least heard, where everybody sort of had some input. But you were expected to come prepared. You had to come with a good argument. The Wire was a great training ground for people. We were able to really mold a crew that really came ready every day. And I think that made a big difference. And we had a culture where we didn't. There wasn't a lot of indulgence of expenditures that didn't show up on the screen. And that came from the producers, but also to the actors and everyone else working on the show.

[Nina Noble]

I agree. I think we were stealing One from television in terms of what the content was. So you'd often get people on the ground in Baltimore and Yonkers or wherever, and you'd say, look, it's a miracle they're doing this piece for television, you know, on federal housing or on the failure of the drug war or whatever. And so you could often. I mean, there were those moments where we went over our actor options. We had to get everyone back at the same salary. And it was really kind of a remarkable moment that everybody came back without renegotiating their contract. I had to say to Chris Albrecht at one point, I'll get them all back. And there was almost a sense of mission that, like, okay, you know, we're not here on a television production, though in fact we were. But you know, on some level, I think the content seeped out into the culture of the production. There was an interior discipline when it happened. I'm not sure I understood it to the extent as being as extraordinary as it was. You know, like, Nina came to the show with more experience in the industry than me. I only worked on homicide. And there's a lot of camaraderie in that show. And there was a lot of good stuff that happened. And I don't mean to suggest otherwise, but there were all kinds of internecine fights involving the cast of that show and the young directors. And it all went over my head. But the corner being my second outing, everybody seemed to get along. And then the Wire right after it, particularly threadbare compared to, say, the Sopranos or later Deadwood. And I just felt like it was all I knew. It's like I hadn't had a chance to wander around the industry and accept certain things as givens. Like, you know, okay, they give you 45, you end up spending 65. It's no big deal as long as you have ratings. A, I never had ratings and B, I only worked under Nina and Jim Finnerty. That was it. So, like, I was never part of a culture that the money didn't go on the screen, which, thank God, because I never got the ratings. You know, ratings can justify anything.

[Jim Miller]

Your work at HBO spanned several different eras. Did those changes affect the way you operate?

[Nina Noble]

This is going to sound a little bit self centered or self centric, but I feel like at this point we acquire new people in the pipeline who are in charge of our shows. You know, we've gone through several iterations of supervision and because we have the record we have at this point, I feel like people almost, it's as much A shakedown for them as it is for us. If the shakedown cruise goes both ways, we sometimes we acquire people who are more hands on with other productions. You know, we want people looking at the scripts and we want people looking at the cuts and we, you know, you can get too much inside a story. You need outside eyes and outside ears. You know, it's not like we're fighting off notes in any way, but there are shows that require a lot more hands on, I think, than we do. So oftentimes we'll get new supervision and they'll be a little bit more indelicate with the notes or with the idea of, like, what if we do this Often there's a vulnerability to that. You know, saying we have a problem here is diagnostic. And it's really sort of the best part of a network note. It's like we had a problem getting this or this is too much or that's a good note. Fix it this way is prescriptive. And they're better off leaving that to producers who have been living with the project and understand what's in the can, what they've shot, what the actors can and can't do, what the story, especially if it's a true story, what we can do, what we can't do. So I feel like we've gone through several generations of. We have new supervision. By the time they get to the end of the project with us, it's like, oh, you know, I get you. And like we learn everybody and the people who've stayed with us. It's almost like we finish each other's sentences.

[David Simon]

I was just going to add from my perspective because I deal with a whole bunch of other executives besides the creative ones. And it's true what David says, we sort of became the training ground for new executives because we had proven ourselves in terms of being creatively and financially responsible. We always got the new guys. And after a while that gets exhausting for us, having to break in the new people all the time. And finally, when we did Plot Against America and The Deuce Season 3, we did both shows simultaneously. And at that point I said, I have to have the same set of people on both shows. Not the creative execs, but everybody else. Legal, business affairs, publicity, all of that production. I can't have two sets of people to talk to, you know, and we were able to get that approved and that helped us so much.

[Jim Miller]

I enjoyed hearing from probably a half a dozen people that during their interview process to be a creative exec, they were asked, can you imagine giving notes to David Simon.

[Nina Noble]

To be fair, it's not as if I get on the phone and I try to blister people in any way. One of the things that's unique about our productions is even with the long term series like the Deuce or Wire, there's a lot of talk in the writers room about why we're doing the show and where we're going and how we see it ending. The Deuce especially. I mean, the Deuce was charted out three seasons before we started writing the pilot. So, like, we've already been in a room where we've argued about why we're bringing this character on and what this character is gonna do. Seasons into the future, and the poor exec is getting three scripts, four scripts, and trying to thread it forward. And it's making the process a little bit more vulnerable than it is with a show that's a little bit more like, hey, we're setting up a universe and we're going to write it and we'll see where it goes. Which is a lot of television. You know, for example, I remember Miranda Heller gave me notes to take out the initial robbery involving Omar, that the character seemed unconnected to either the police side of things or the Barksdales, which at that point he was. But we knew Omar going forward, so I was like, no, he's gonna connect in season five. There'll be a scene where he meets with the detectives and he starts to give them information and he's gonna weave in. Please let him stand in episode three. And that moment played itself out in many, many different productions where it's like, no, no, no. At the end, this character is gonna look back on this moment, and it's gonna be key. It's sort of the difference between writing a series of short stories and reading them as short stories and writing a novel. And the executives are literally at a disadvantage with the scripts they have in front of them, trying to evaluate them as singular scripts.

[Jim Miller]

David, with so much change going on in the business of television, do you feel like you can continue to write and produce shows in the future like you have up to now?

[Nina Noble]

You know, I used to say to various execs at hbo, listen, you know, if you have to tell me that you guys signed up one day and noticed that we weren't pulling weight that you needed, you know, and we shook hands and said goodbye. I'd still, you know, if I saw you a year later, I'd cross the street and give you a hug. I mean, it was a great run. If it comes to the point where either the projects themselves are uninteresting to me, if that's the material that we're being asked to do, that that would end us, or if we fail to execute, if we come to a project and we look at what we shot and say to ourselves, we've done better. You know, everybody found the Wire, and that's great. The Wire helped establish us, and it's wonderful, and I'm happy that we did it. And no disrespect to the Wire at all, but secretly I feel like our projects have been better executed as we've gone along. I feel like, show me a hero. Generation Kill. These things actually had themes that were ornate and intricate. They were harder to film and harder to capture, and they didn't rely on some of the same tropes that we know work in television. Treme, to me is this delicate, beautiful piece that, you know, it's just a trombone in a guy's hand, not a gun, which is what makes it vulnerable. So, like, to me, that the pieces keep getting more interesting and better. I feel like we're maturing. And if that collapses, that's more on us than on the network. The other part is if the network just decides, you know what we need impact. We need numbers. You know, I mean, that's what happened to the feature industry.

[David Simon]

Dragons.

[Nina Noble]

Yeah, we need dragons, then we're doomed that way. And then I think I should throw it to Nita because she's got her own dynamic with HBO and she's got her own vibe.

[David Simon]

Well, just from my perspective, oddly, our other shows are becoming more like us. You know, in the old days, we were the outliers for always integrating what are popular concepts now, diversity and inclusion and equity into our productions. It was just sort of part of our workflow. And so now, just recently, is the first time that people are actually starting to look at all the stuff we've done in that area and wanting to become more like that, just in terms of staffing, in terms of how people are treated. And so I'm tremendously proud of our history in that area.

[Nina Noble]

I'm not sure I would do a good job working anywhere. We took the money we had and we executed it as we did, but it's not like we ever brought in an audience. So I'm not sure I would be working anywhere with that track record. I mean, I think in some respects, the appointment television that premium cable offered, as opposed to the Nielsens, that was a window that we were able to.

[Jim Miller]

Crawl through when we return, we'll go inside HBO's acclaimed cultural juggernaut Insecure with its showrunner Prentice Penny. Foreign.

[Issa Rae]

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott and we make a TV show called Severance. On January 17th, Severance is back for season two on Apple TV and we can't wait for you guys to see it. And before the premiere, Ben and I are going to be binging season one and putting out daily recap podcasts. Yep, each weekday beginning January 7th, we be dropping an episode featuring exclusive behind the scenes tidbits and brilliant insights from our cast and crew and us, Patricia Arquette, Britt Lauer, Zach Cherry, John Turturro. The list goes on. All your favorite Lumen employees, their friends, families, enemies in your feed every single weekday. And here's the best part. After that, we're gonna keep going. Tune in weekly as we recap every episode of season two. The podcast drops on the same day the episode comes out. It's the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jim Miller]

Watch the final season documentary of HBO's Insecure titled the End and you'll meet many of the important figures who helped turn Insecure into such an unmistakable sensation across 44 episodes over five seasons. And you'll doubtless come to realize one of the key success factors for the the extraordinary relationship between the show's star, Issa Rae, and its showrunner, Prentice Penny. Penny, raised in Los Angeles, attended USC's screenwriting program and put his time in as a substitute teacher before getting the opportunity to write for the show Girlfriends. He wrote a couple episodes of Scrubs, served as a co executive producer on Brooklyn Nine Nine and jumped into reality television and in front of the camera with TruTV's upscale with Prentice Penny.

[Prentice Penny]

I've worked on shows that were first year shows and I think anytime you're on a first year show, you sort of feel like we're in the trenches together doing something from the beginning, right. So there's something really special. Like when I worked on happy innings in Brooklyn 9 9. You feel like nobody knows what this is yet because that hasn't come out. Like when you're a kid and you're kind of playing with your own toys in a corner and nobody knows kind of what you're doing or if you were a chef and you're kind of creating a dish for the first time and nobody really knows what this dish is yet. There's something really special about having something just being Creative without a judgment yet. But I think what made insecure feel that way, I think was still having that feeling of being the most creative you feel you can be was also understanding that as black people making this kind of show with what it was kind of trying to do in this very specific way that it's not supposed to succeed makes it even more that way. So you sort of feel like you're not only protective of your show, but you're protective of the culture. You're wanting to be super authentic in every way possible. So you sort of feel like it's not an us versus them, but that's what it felt like. It's like, this has to be right. And we were all coming together in service of that. It wasn't like, I have an ego or that's getting in the way of this, or I'm a huge star and this is that vehicle. And it was like we're all kind of have success in our own way and then having being new in so many ways. And I think that's what really became the family. So we were all rooted in one goal, which was to help and really make it succeed.

[Jim Miller]

Was there an inflection point where you realized the show was growing beyond whatever goals you and Issa originally had for it?

[Prentice Penny]

Yeah, that was such an interesting thing because obviously we had finished the show with about three or four months before the show aired. So there was still this weird window of like a trailer dropping. But it wasn't like Issa was a huge star. Right. It's just like this little show on hbo. But like I remember around episode five with and Issa has sex with Daniel and cheats on Lawrence, watching Twitter explode, watching people's comments about the show and then people just being so like, oh my God. And it was so funny because the finale aired the day before we started season two in the writers room. So we were going into season two writers room kind of like, this is wild. And never writing from that perspective, but it felt super participatory as a show, as a thing. And that's when I recognized, oh, this is like click with people in a way that specific, that sort of normalizing everyday black life without trauma behind it, sort of seeing a dark skinned black woman be a lead and being clumsy and awkward as opposed to being super put together. You were just seeing things that I felt that you hadn't really seen yet in television. And so that's when we knew it was like, okay, this is a thing. And then to watch that happen, watch the repeats of People still commenting and commenting at me and being mad at Issa and, you know, mad at me, and then I could participate with them. And I wasn't sure how that was going to go at first, but then people loved when you respond to them in that way or you express an opinion. That's when I knew, okay, this is doing some things.

[Jim Miller]

The show is not entirely autobiographical, but it's obviously fueled a lot by who Issa is and what she's gone through. And so coming in as the showrunner, you needed to balance the nonfiction part of Issa's life and the fictional part of Issa's life that could have gone sideways. Right. Could you talk about how HBO communicated with you about carrying that off?

[Prentice Penny]

Yeah. I mean, they never had to come in and say any of that. I think Issa and I sorted out our relationship without HBO needing to say, hey this or hey, that. They just sort of let us figure out a relationship. And I think the way I always viewed this show at the end of the day was, I've been brought in to help support your vision that they've already bought. Right. So in my version, in my mind, I'm here to give all the things I've learned. And I said, I always feel like, at the most, this show is 49% me, but it's always going to be, you're the deciding vote on everything. So if we're in the edit and I like one version, you like another version, we're doing your version, I could say, hey, here's why I think this. Or when we were breaking stories, here's the thing. But if she didn't want to do it, I was never here to, like, force my thing on her. I was always here to support, okay, well, if we're going to do it that way, then maybe here are a couple ways that we could do that. Right. And so that was always the approach, because I didn't birth this thing with her. I was sort of like a stepfather, where I was like, but I'm the only father this show knows in its physical form. Obviously, Larry and her created the show as a script, but in terms of making the pilot and all the other episodes was sort of being there for that. So I think he said, at the end of the day, we just had such a healthy amount of respect for what the other was bringing to the table. Those things never got in the way of anything creative in any kind of way.

[Jim Miller]

When our conversation with Prentice Penny continues, we'll talk about Insecure's relationship with HBO and hear what conversations between the two entities are really. Prentice. Race was an essential ingredient in the show and its success. And you have Amy Gravitt, a white woman in charge of comedy at the network. What was that like?

[Prentice Penny]

It was honestly great. I mean, really, you know, I come from the network world, where the notes are coming from, like, eight different people, the studio and the network, and you don't really know whose note is whom. And these notes can fight each other. And there's power plays in the notes, and. And some of the notes aren't super clear. And somebody like Andy Driver, who's brilliant, and Casey, at the time, before he was promoted, was the notes always were rooted in real character or real story and trying to make the thing better without an agenda behind why they're making it better. And again, in the network world, it would be like, do this note or else, right? And in hbo, things became conversations. It became like, sometimes when you're writing, you think it's clear. And sometimes Amy or Casey might go, well, I'm not quite sure of this. And then you talk it out, well, this is what we're trying to do. Oh, I didn't know that. Well, maybe we can set it up that way. And they really shaped what I was looking for when I left HBO in a studio going forward, because it became conversations. It became like, well, let's figure it out together. It became like, partnerships. And so most of the stuff that we had to figure out was all season one stuff, like any new show, right? You're trying to figure out the tone and the pace and certain things like that. And the one big note that they gave that I think really helped the show was the first season was kind of going to end with Issa and Daniel having sex, and we were going to get into the breakup later. And Amy grabbed it to her credit, and super smart, was like, no, move that up to the middle. And we were like, well, we don't have any more stories. And she was like, well, you'll find stories. She was right. And like, Larry Wilmore said the same thing, like, really put yourself in the corner and get out of it. And that was just so helpful. And that's what we did for all the rest of the seasons, was let's find ourselves in a corner halfway through, and then, how do we get out of that? But they were always super helpful and always super. And I'm not just saying that because I was there. Like, I'm not there anymore. They just really set a tone for how to be partnerships with creatives.

[Jim Miller]

How did Insecure change you?

[Prentice Penny]

I think it changed me as a creator profoundly. I started on Girlfriends, which was primarily an African American show, but certainly feeling like we were marginalized at upmcw, you're not taken seriously by our peers. And I think after having gone to, like, network shows where I was the only person of color in the room, you sort of get used to, like, accepting things as they are, right. And going to do Insecure with Issa and Molina. But that energy of a young energy wanting to come in and take over, as I did too. But you're also feeling like you're on the island all the time. That off of that experience was just like, no, we're not asking for permission anymore. We're just going to do the thing and speak up for what we want to do, how we want to build our crews, right? Saying that we're not gonna like 50% has to be people of color and women and saying, we're doing this or we're not doing this, right? And I just think it made me be much more vocal about the types of things that I would want going forward as a producer. Like any other person, right? Like any other white creative gets to say, like, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. But sometimes when you're the only one, you don't feel empowered to do that because you have to justify or explain why. It just gets kind of tiring. So it definitely made me much more assertive in terms of what I expect and what I want to do going forward. And I think as a writer, I would say Insecure reminded me why I wanted to write in the first place. Was when I read that script, it just felt super fun. And it reminded me when you're in the network world or just the business a long time, you can kind of get hammered or drilled. This is the way we do things, right? Or like, don't do it like this, or do do it like this. We're kind of getting this copycat formula. And it really just reminded me when you're a kid and you're like coloring a picture, or you might color the cactus pink, or you might color the sun purple, and nobody tells a five year old, don't make the sun purple. You just let them create. And I was like, that's what this experience reminded me of. Like, just create. Remember to have fun. That's why we're doing it. As opposed to being afraid to fail or not thinking about the business part, none of why I went to go make it secure, it didn't make sense to me. Financially to go do it secure. It wasn't my material, I was losing money, but it was something in the tuning fork of it felt like the right thing to do creatively. So from that place it has made me a better writer. It just freed me from the anxiety or the insecurity or the fear of what the business can kind of put into you.

[Jim Miller]

Next on origins HBO Episode 4 We'll go one on one with the unsinkable Sheila Nevins. Thank you for listening to Origins, a presentation of C13 original originals, a Cadence 13 studio. This podcast is executive produced by myself and Chris Corcoran, Chief Content Officer and founding partner of C13. It's produced and edited by my brother in arms, Chris Basel, who always delivers. Many thanks extend to Terence Malangone, who provides much appreciated production assistance in the trenches and our terrific Cadence 13 gang. Production coordination by Kelly Rafferty, marketing PR and graphic design from Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hilary Schuff and Kurt Courtney. Cadence 13 is an odyssey company. We'll see you next episode.

[Ben Stiller]

The new year is here and it's the perfect time to kick start your meditation practice. The Morning Meditation for Women Women podcast has short daily guided meditations that will help you start your day with intention and focus and make it so easy to get you into the habit. Imagine feeling so much more calm and confident in 2025. Follow and listen to Morning Meditation for Women on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.