Jack Wagner (3:02)

Hello, is this Bobby?

Grace (3:03)

Yes, it is at its core, the science you can't argue with.

Jack Wagner (3:07)

I'm worried about up in the sky.

Grace (3:09)

It's almost frustrating that it's happening.

Jack Wagner (3:12)

I'm gonna die. Up was like its limbs were just like, wrong. Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute. My name is Grace. I'm 35 years old. I live in eastern Connecticut, like, kind of near where Mystic Pizza takes place, that classic Julia Roberts movie. I'm a wedding planner and event designer. And the story started when I moved back to Connecticut in 2018. I had been living in California, and when I got pregnant with my daughter Frances, we moved to New Haven and started looking for houses in Connecticut. I grew up here in eastern Connecticut, so we were looking all over. Around November of 2019, Frances had been born. At that point. She was probably about 8 months old. I went to an astrologist named Michael, who I'd gone to like several times before because I wanted to have Frances chart her birth chart read. So I have Francis chart read. And he said a bunch of really interesting stuff. It was really cool. But what he said about Frances that I thought was interesting and that stayed with me is that he said she was surrounded by spirits. A few weeks later, I'm looking at houses. I had driven like an hour from New Haven to my hometown, and I was looking at houses around Lake mystic, and I went to a house in mystic, and it was a total bust. Like, it was just a dump. And I was like, okay, this was kind of a waste of an hour drive. Let me see if there's anything else nearby to go check out. So I got on Zillow. I found a spot, and it was on this road that was a mile from where I grew up. But I didn't even know that this road existed. And the house was like, really cool. It was a black house, salt box on an acre of land right on the river. So I was like, all right, let me go check it out. So I was with Francis. Francis and I went to the house, and when we walked into the house, it was like a flip, just switch. Like it was a no brainer that we were going to buy this house. We put an offer then in that day, and we were like on our way to closing in December. So at the closing, you know, the negotiations with the homeowners, I think it was probably pretty typical for the way that negotiations go. Like, it wasn't. Like, we weren't warm and fuzzy, misha the homeowner, she's one of my best friends now. But at the time, we didn't even wanna look at each other at the closing. Cause we had argued about a bunch of stuff with the house. So, anyways, at the closing, we sign all the paperwork. We're sitting there, and Misha said, hey, just a heads up, like, everything's out of the house. But when you go down to the basement, you're gonna see that there are, like, five or six boxes down there. And those have to stay with the house. They belong to the house. So if you ever leave, you need to leave those there. And I was like, okay, well, what are they? And she ended up telling me that in 1998, when the House was rebuilt. Right. Cause the house is from 1725. But it had a new foundation poured in 1998. And whenever construction is happening on, like, a potentially archaeologically significant piece of property, you're supposed to let the state know. I learned all of this since then, obviously. So the homeowner at that time had let the state know. I'm putting an addition on, and I'm doing a new foundation. Do you want to come and conduct an archaeological dig? So they did. UConn and the Connecticut State Archaeologists, like the State Historical Society, they came and conducted a dig on the property. And they took some of the artifacts that they found, but they left these five boxes in the basement. So I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, I didn't know that before. You know, we've got, like, some old spooky shit in the basement. So I just asked her really offhanded, like, oh, is it haunted? And she said, no. And then she paused, and she looked at her husband. Husband at the time, Chris. They looked at each other, and, like, they gave each other this really funny look. And then she turned back to me and she said, but we did find a skull in the yard. And I was like. Like a. Like a human skull? Aren't you supposed to, like, call somebody, like, if you find that? And she was like, yeah, it was definitely a human skull. We had a big pine tree removed from the yard, and we found all these bones. But we just gave the arborist, like, 300 bucks and told him to throw everything back in there. I was like, okay, really, like, fun story. Like, kind of a party trick that I can tell people, you know, like, over cocktails or whatever.

Grace (8:58)

Wait, wait. So you. You mentioned that you were arguing with the former homeowner during negotiations. You didn't mention what, But I'm very curious about the fact that you didn't argue with her about finding a skull or this box of relics in the basement. Like, you didn't argue about that. Like, what were. What were you arguing about?

Jack Wagner (9:22)

There was a couple. There was no heat in one of the rooms upstairs. Like, there was no baseboard heat. That was. That was what we argued about.

Grace (9:33)

So the H vac was an issue, but not the skull?

Jack Wagner (9:36)

Yeah. I mean, okay, just. There is, like, legal precedent for disclosing haunted houses, but I think that she. She didn't think the house was haunted. She just knew that there was a scar. Now, she probably should have reported it to somebody, but, Yeah, I don't. I think that her husband. Like, I feel like that knowing look was just like, misha, like, shut your mouth. Don't tell them about the buried bodies. Like, in the yard. Like, you. You know, you're gonna fuck this up.

Grace (10:06)

What did. What did your husband think of all this?

Jack Wagner (10:09)

We thought it was fun. At that point, we were like, this is cool. Like, this is cool. This is, like a fun. It's like a. Like I said, it's like a party trick. He is eternally skeptical, but I think, like, even things will happen now, and he'll say to me, like, if it doesn't happen to me, I don't believe it. So at that point, we had already signed the paperwork, so it was not even like we had an opportunity. If we. If we were like, wait, this. This is sort of, like, could have changed our offer on the house. We didn't even have that opportunity because everything had already been signed. So it wasn't like we were mad about it. You know, we still loved the house. We still do love the house. But we basically took the keys and we left. That was it. We get to the house, like, one of the first things we do. Mark actually was traveling. I'm remembering now, he was traveling for work a lot at that time. So I think I actually moved into the house without him. Initially, Francis and I were in the house. One of the first things that I did was I pulled all the boxes out of the basement, and I brought them upstairs and started to look through them. They were meticulously organized. So there was, like, an inventory list with codes for everything, including, like, the GPS location. Like, not the. You know, like, the exactly where on the property everything was found. And inside, man, there's so much cool stuff. A lot of it is really old, like Pequot artifacts, like arrowheads, obviously, but also pottery and old bits of clothing, and then through colonial times. So, like, Lots of stoneware, painted ceramics, like children's shoes. And then a lot of animal or. I mean, I think animals. Some of it is unknown, but bone fragments. Like, there's horse jaws and old pipes and, like, bone pipes. So, like, a lot of really cool and pretty creepy stuff. A lot of bones down there. I kind of love creepy stuff. And again, like, at that time, it was just entertainment for me. So I was like, this is weird, but I also, like, I love history. And I was. It really got me super interested in, like, the history of the property and who had lived here before because there was so much. And even, like, you know, my first month living here forgot to mention this, but, like, there's gardens all over the property. I'm looking at them right now. There's, like, five stone garden beds. There's a raised garden. There's all this hardscaping with perennial flowers. And the first month I was here, I would find arrowheads, like, every other week, like, just on top of the dirt, like, as if somebody had placed it there. Just, like, beautiful stuff. Old milk bottles and old ceramics. Like, there's just stuff everywhere. So I just got really, really interested in the history of the property and who had been here before me, because it obviously had been inhabited for a really, really. So like I said, Mark had been traveling a lot at that time and around February. So, like, two or three months later was when it stopped being fun. At this time, my bedroom was upstairs. So we have the first floor, second floor, and then there's a little attic above the third floor. Really small. The first visitation in February, I woke up and it was the middle of the night. I don't remember what time it was, because as soon as I opened my eyes, I was looking at the bookshelf on the side of my bed. And in the bookshelf, I could see the outline of two little boys laying in the bookshelf looking at me. And I think everybody's probably experienced, like, when you're. When you open your eyes in the dark and you think you see something, you think you see a figure, and you just keep staring at it because you can't tell. That is not what this was. It was dark, but it was, like, moonlit in the room. And I think what was. I mean, obviously that was exceptionally strange. What was maybe more strange in retrospect was, like, my lack of action. Like, I didn't do anything about it. I didn't go under the covers. I didn't get up and walk out. I didn't scream. I didn't Turn the lights on. I just stared until I fell back aside. When I woke up the next morning, I think I was actually way more terrified the next day when I remembered what had happened the night before. Pretty soon after that, like three or four. I think it was three for me, one for Mark. More things happened at night, and the intensity was, like, escalating. The second incident, Mark again was traveling. I was laying in bed, and I opened my eyes in the middle of the night. And I was staring straight up at my ceiling. And in my peripheral vision, this thick green mist was starting to enter my line of sight directly overhead. And as it came together, it formed a very distinct face of a man. Like a full head of hair, eyes, but like, no pupils, you know, like, that didn't look like it was. It didn't look like it had anything inside of its eyes. When I saw the face come together, I. I wasn't like, frozen with inaction at this time. I. I let out a really loud, like, gasp, almost a scream that I will not replicate. Cause it's a little embarrassing, but I made like a really loud noise of shock. And the face almost like mirrored my face. Like, opened its mouth and it. I felt like it screamed. And as soon as it opened its mouth, the mist dissipated back to my peripheral. And I was just laying there in bed. Like, you know, you can imagine, like, scary, heavy breathing. So that was the second thing that happened. This time I was very scared. It was a little bit different than the previous incident. Like, I was horrified. And for the rest of that week, actually, like, probably for the rest of that year, if I ever woke up in the middle of the night, I would. I'm not religious. I'm like, kind of anti religious, But I would say the Lord's Prayer over and over and over again until I fell back asleep. I was really scared. And of course, like, after the fact, as I'm describing this to Mark, my skeptical husband was skeptical. And we like, toyed with the idea of this being a sleep paralysis instance. But I never experienced sleep paralysis before. I wasn't under any kind of exceptional stress at that time. Like, I wasn't going through really, like a big. Aside from having bought a house, like. And I'm not a super stressed out person anyways. But there really would have been no triggering incident for having sleep paralysis. And aside from that, like, I just wasn't asleep. Like, I woke up and saw these two things. This became like, a regular topic of conversation in our house because I was really, really scared. I did not want Mark to travel for work anymore. And if he did travel for work, I slept like with Francis in the bed with me, like, or I even would sleep at my parents house sometimes if Mark was traveling. Because I just really did not want to be in the house by myself. It's like if you've ever lost somebody like in your family or like a close friend, you might have had this experience where like there's like three or four days after you lose someone where everything just feels like a little bit thinner and a little bit. There's a very specific like opening of a sense that you don't always have. And then after a few days it kind of goes away. I don't know. That might make sense to some people, it might not make sense to some people, but that's how my house feels all the time. It like always feels like there's a little bit of thinness and a little bit of like pressure that's otherwise not there. So at this time, like it was just a more intense version of that. It felt like kind of heavy. And I still do love the house, but I think Mark, you know, and as things started to pick up more and more, Mark also started to figure out, like, we can't live in this house like this forever. Like that's not going to work. Like we're going to have to do something about this because we live here now. Like this is our house and we don't want to leave. And the next couple things that happened, I think Mark, he, he started to get like, not just a little bit less skeptical, but he started to get full on board with getting rid of whatever was in the house. There were two more incidents that happened within the span of a week. The first one was, was pretty innocuous. I had a. What I thought was a regular night's sleep. And when I woke up in the morning, came downstairs, it suddenly hit me, this memory of having my hand held in the night. My hand was dangling over the side of the bed and I had like that physical memory sensation of somebody holding my hand. And I turned to Mark and I said, somebody was holding my hand last night. A few nights later, Frances was getting up really early. So we would take turns being up with her at like 4:35 in the morning and let the other person sleep. So I was sleeping in on this day and I was laying in bed and I heard my door open. And then I felt somebody's hands around my ankles. They slowly pulled me down, probably a foot. So I was now off my pillow. My legs were probably Dangling, like, from my knees to my feet off the end of my bed. And I sort of, like, shook myself. And I felt the ankles, hands around my ankles again and again, pulled me down. But this time I felt myself being pulled off the bed completely, like, hitting the ground. Could feel my cheek rubbing against the linens. Feel like my body smacking against the wood floor. And when I opened my eyes again, I was back on the top of my bed at my pillow. I don't know how to explain this, but, like, I felt like I was being taken to another place. Like, my physical body wasn't being pulled, but I was being pulled out of my body. And I felt like I was being taken somewhere. I felt like I was receiving a very forceful invitation to enter another world. It felt like a trick. It felt like it wanted me to trust it. Whatever is trying to take me here, it wants me to feel like this is playful and no big deal. But there was something really deep down in me that was just like, you're not supposed to go there. And I very quickly was just like, fuck that. Under no circumstances am I going anywhere against my will. Like, I'm not going to let anything take me anywhere. If I go to another plane, Like, I have to be in control of that. And then I went downstairs and I told Mark everything that had just happened. And I was extremely, extremely shaken up at this point. This was very, very scary for me. Felt like maybe in the absence of the other things that had happened, I would have been able to write this off. But it felt to me like such a clear escalation. It got really, really scary because I also felt like it's one thing just to, like, see somebody in my room, but it's another thing for something to be, like, touching me or, like, holding me. And I was just like, I'm not. I'm really afraid. I don't want that. And I don't know, like, where. Like, what is this thing and where is it trying to take me? The look on his face, like, it turned, I think, from skepticism and laughing it off to concern whether it was, like, just for me and my mental state or for, like, the. My safety or, like, what was happening in the house. I think it was probably some combination at that point. So I started to do a bunch of stuff around the house based on the advice of, like, a friend who I felt was very attuned. I talked to her about the situation, and she suggested, like, playing loud music, move the furniture around. And she was like, just talk to it and tell it that it's not welcome there and to get the fuck out. So I started doing that. Mark started doing it. She suggested putting like plants and offerings in the basement. So I didn't do like offerings per se, but I did put like flowers in the basement and just tried to like really change the energy of the space and the night incidents stopped. But that's when everything with Francis started.

Grace (25:37)

All right, we'll be right back after this quick break. This show is sponsored by Liquid iv. This is very funny timing because I literally just walked to the store and bought a liquid IV about 5 minutes ago. I. I drink these all the time. Liquid IV is basically a little packet of hydrating powder that you put into a 16 ounce bottle of water. It has three times the electrolytes of leading sports drinks and eight essential vitamins and nutrients. Me and my friends swear by these things and I have a huge Costco bulk supply at my house. On days where I'm feeling super run down from a workout or skiing or a long night out or you name it, I mix one of these up in my water bottle and start my day with it and I genuinely feel like person. 30 minutes later, it kind of replenishes me, recharges, and brings me back to life. Sometimes when I charge my phone, I find myself thinking, man, that must feel really good if you're a phone. I think Liquid IV is the closest thing to that feeling for me. Treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to Liquid IV.com and use code otherworld at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code otherworld@liquidiv.com.

Jack Wagner (27:02)

Do you know what went down at the Viper Room the night River Phoenix died? Or how about the mysterious death of Brittany Murphy? Are you aware of how Steve McQueen escaped murder at the hands of the Manson family? The obsessive killing of Dorothy Stratton? The real life murder that inspired David Lynch's Twin Peaks? The three conspiracies surrounding Marilyn Monroe's death. These stories and more are told in the new podcast Hollywoodland, where true crime and Tinseltown collide. Hollywoodland is hosted by me, Jake Brennan, creator of the award winning music and true crime podcast Disgraceland. Follow and listen to Hollywoodland wherever you get your podcasts. When you think about businesses that are selling through the roof, like aloe Allbirds or skims, sure you think about a great product, a cool brand and brilliant marketing. But an often overlooked secret is actually the businesses behind the business making selling and for shoppers buying simple for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Nobody does selling better than Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret with shop pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell whenever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout experience as business powerhouses like Aloe Allbirds and Skims. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period@shopify.com Odysseypodcast all lowercase go to shopify.com Odyssey podcast to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Odysseypodcast hey, it's me, Paige Desorbo and I'm so excited to share my new shoe collection at dsw filled with my favorite styles and trends for spring. Because if you know me, you know I'm kind of obsessed with shoes. And by kind of obsessed, I mean head over heels. You're going to love these shoes. So snag super cute styles like cute flats, fun heels and cool sneakers. From the page to Sorbo collection right now at your DSW store or dsw.com marvel studios thunderbolts will take the world by storm yes, there's big right out.

Grace (29:26)

There and you're gonna help me stop it us.

Jack Wagner (29:29)

Why? You got some place to be on May 2nd. Avengers are gone.

Grace (29:32)

No one's coming to save the day their time. I think we could be the people that are coming.

Jack Wagner (29:37)

Ascom thank you. There is no higher calling. Let's do this. Marvel Studios Thunderbolts only theaters may 2 get tickets now. This film is not yet rated so at this point it's like March 2020 and Covid had just hit and there's like nothing to do but like go for walks with Frances. Like I was working from home. I worked a non profit at that time. So Frances and I would go to the park all the time and we'd take these like long walks all the time. So one day I'm at the park and Misha, who has three sons, randomly shows up at the park too. And we get to chatting. We like weren't close friends yet at this point and I just asked her about the skull that she had mentioned because Mark and I basically thought that she had made that up to scare us since the house negotiations had gotten a little contentious. So I was like, you were like Fucking with us, right? And she was like, no, I was not. I was not making that up. That absolutely happened. And then she said, let me go. I'll like, confirm all the details with Chris when I get home. So she texted me later that night and she told me, not only is that true, that skull, but she said that Chris, after that happened, did a bunch of research on the property and learned that there was a church and graveyard in that portion of the yard. So most likely, in his opinion, that was a graveyard where they pulled that tree out. I sort of told her at that point, like, I didn't give her a lot of detail because I was a bit bashful about being judged. But I told her a little bit, like, there's something going on with this house and we love it, but there's just something going on here. That summer, the weirdness persists. Frances and I, like I said, we're taking all these really long walks and there's this forest near my house where we walk every day during COVID At this point, she's like a year, a little bit over a year. And we just hear whistling in the woods every time that we go, like, following us through the woods. Not birds, like human whistling. Nobody else in this nature preserve. Like I said, weird things like that were just happening with remarkable frequency. But it was one offs. Like it was a little thing here and a little thing there. And Francis was just starting to talk. And when she could start to clearly communicate with us, she started to say some, like, pretty jaw dropping stuff about what was happening to her at night. This is when Auntie Gloria, like, enters the scene. It wasn't like a gradual introduction to Auntie Gloria. It was like one morning just before her second birthday. She told us that Auntie Gloria had come to see her last night and was playing with her toys and reading her books. And Mark and I kind of looked at each other and we started to probe her just a little bit. Like, who's Auntie Gloria? What does she say when she comes? Is she friendly or is she mean? At that time, like, she was pretty open about it. She would say, like, she's. She's really nice. She reads me the stories that she wrote. She just comes and says hi. She told me happy birthday. And so Mark and I, obviously we get, like, kind of curious. Like, well, let's figure out, like, is this Auntie Gloria? Who is this? So we look up, like, Auntie Gloria and the name of the town that we live in. And right away the first hit is an obituary from, like, 2003 or 2004 for a woman named Gloria Barber, who, as we came to find out, was the person who lived here when the house was excavated. Like, she rebuilt this house. She was known by community members as Auntie Gloria. She was a children's author, and she, like, renovated a bunch of the old houses in the neighborhood. This, at this point, we're both just like, this is undeniable. Like, we had never talked about Gloria. Like, we. Like, there was just no way that Frances could have just made this up. And every week or so, she would tell us about another visitation with Auntie Gloria. I would try to tell her, like, make sure Auntie Gloria, like, respects your space, you know, like, is like, you know, you don't have to talk to her if you don't want to. One day she woke up and said that Auntie Gloria wants you to paint the house red again. And I told a neighbor about this, like, kind of offhandedly like, oh, Frances is, you know, talking to Auntie Gloria. Cause obviously the neighbors had, you know, who'd lived here for a long time, remembered her. My neighbor told me, like, indeed, the house used to be red. And it was a very specific shade of red that Gloria had gone to, like, incredible lengths to find because she wanted it to be really historically accurate. And apparently she was upset when it was painted over black. She would tell Frances things like, tell your mom not to leave her cakes out on the counter so long before she puts them in the oven. So she would be, you know, for like a two year old to say that it was literally unbelievable. Like, it was literally unbelievable.

Grace (35:49)

It seems like things that a 2 year old, like, wouldn't comprehend to say on their own, like the. The intricacies of baking or like, or.

Jack Wagner (36:00)

Even that you would paint a house.

Grace (36:02)

Yeah.

Jack Wagner (36:03)

Like a two year old just doesn't think about the world that way or.

Grace (36:07)

That it would have been a different color in the past.

Jack Wagner (36:10)

Right. So this was like a. I think I recorded this one and sent it to you. But after we chatted, you know, because she. She's really sheepish about it now. Like, she. She clams up when you ask her about it. But at one point we were making cookies and I was. I tried to keep it super casual with her, you know, like, no big deal. Let's just like, you know, see what comes out. Try not to put too much pressure on her because like I said, she clams up. So she did end up telling me, like, Auntie Gloria was telling her about her. Her aunts, her mean aunts I probed a little bit and just said like, well, what? Why are her aunts mean? And she said. She. She said that her aunts. Her aunts do bad things to children. And she said they do bad things with belts to children, which is like really dark. I know I'm not super mom, but like, my child is not expl. Exposed to anything like that, like, ever. So to even know that that's a thing that happens is. I just. I don't. Maybe I'm naive, but like, I just don't see how a 2 or 3 year old could make that kind of a connection. Like how they could. She could say that spontaneously. I don't know. Tell me, what were the stories.

Grace (37:44)

About?

Jack Wagner (37:44)

Aunt. What aunt?

Grace (37:47)

Her aunts.

Jack Wagner (37:48)

Auntie Gloria's aunts. She still does this?

Grace (37:53)

She still reads me books of hers.

Jack Wagner (37:58)

Auntie Gloria reads you books of hers?

Grace (38:01)

Yeah, they're me.

Jack Wagner (38:03)

What do you mean they're mean?

Grace (38:05)

They're mean books.

Jack Wagner (38:07)

Books about what? Her mean arms. When did she read them to you? She did it when I was fast asleep. She would read you books when you were asleep?

Grace (38:21)

Yeah.

Jack Wagner (38:22)

Was she in your room? Yes.

Grace (38:26)

Cynthia.

Jack Wagner (38:29)

You were sleeping in your room. Was she saying nice things?

Grace (38:37)

Mean things.

Jack Wagner (38:38)

Like what?

Grace (38:40)

I told you, she does everything about her mean.

Jack Wagner (38:46)

They would hurt kids. What do you mean they would hurt kids? How would they hurt kids? Belt. What? Mean belt. A belt? Yeah, a mean belt. And a lot of times it bites children. Oh. Obviously it's upsetting, you know, to think that your little girls like being exposed to things outside of your control. That's like what every parent. Like, that's probably one of the hardest parts about being a parent. Maybe the hardest part about being a parent. But I also think that, like, she didn't seem scared or upset. And so I didn't want to map any of my, like, shit onto the way that she was experiencing it. So when she told me, I just tried to stay like, pretty neutral and curious. I don't know, that's. I guess my parenting style is like, well, she's not freaking out about it or scared. Why would I put that on her? I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's kind of how I approached it. Yeah. And then she. She would talk about other people too, but that would be a little bit more. That was with way less consistency than Auntie Gloria. Like, at one point she told me that there's a lady with black eyes who comes to see her at night too, and that she runs away if mom comes she would make these really offhanded comments. Like out of the blue, she would say things like, oh, there's a lady who's in the bathtub, and that would be it. And then if you tried to probe her or follow up about it, like, you have to remember, like, even though she's describing these experiences, she still is like, you know, between the ages of 2 and 3 and a half, she started to talk about a man on the stairs. So, like, the angle of her bed, if her door was open, she could see the staircase going up to my room. And she would wake up in the morning and she started to tell me that she was seeing a man on the stairs looking up at mom and dad's room. I sort of told her, like, you can tell him to go away. Like you have the power to command him to leave if you want to. That summer, I had a friend come stay with me. And I hadn't told her anything about the house because I didn't want her to not stay. But the next morning she woke up and she said that she could not get any sleep at all because somebody was running up and down the stairs all night. And then not long after that. So Mark, you know, he kind of experienced all this alongside me. And that like September, he became a full blown believer. Because we were sitting in my big room, which was like my kitchen and dining room and like living room is all one. And I was in the kitchen doing something. Francis was and Mark were like wrestling in the. On the couches or whatever, just playing. My back was turned to them. And I heard what I thought was him like playfully growling at her. But Francis said, mom, what was that? And I was busy in the kitchen, like just cooking. So I was like, it was dad. About 10 seconds later we heard it again, much louder this time. And Francis said again, dad, what was that? And Mark said, that was Mom. And at that point I turned around and I like stopped what I was doing and looked at him square in the face and said, you're fucking with me, right? And he said, no. And Francis just burst out crying and ran away. And Mark and I were left in the room and we were just like, did we both just hear that? Like, that was a human here and it wasn't you and it wasn't me. And Francis obviously heard it. Then our attention shifted to like, francis is upset. We got to talk to her. What are we going to tell her? Because we don't want her to be scared. And we were freaked the fuck out too. So Mark just wasn't thinking. And she kept saying, what was that? What was that? What was that? I don't know why he said this, because it doesn't even make any sense. But he was like, it was the grill outside the grill. The grill made a weird noise. Francis was adamant, that was not the grill, Daddy. That was not the grill. That was inside the house. The grill is outside the house. That was inside the house. We're all kind of crying at this point. Like, we were all really, really scared. And Mark was just like, okay, I have no explanation for that. Like, as much as I would like to be able to explain why we all heard that sound, there is nothing that could have made the sound that we just heard. A few months later, it's Halloween. We're trick or treating. We go to this neighborhood nearby that, like, you know, goes all out for Halloween. Like, every house is. Has, like, crazy decorations. And we're walking around, and Francis walks up to this Halloween statue. Like, the kind that you would get at, like, big Lots or Costco or whatever. It's like this big statue of a ghoul. You know, like, it's floating. It has this big cape. It has this dark face. It's not making any noise. But she looks at it, and she turns to Mark and I, and she says, dad, look, it's the grill. And Mark and I just turned and looked at each other, and we're just like, what the fuck? We were completely speechless. Because, I mean, obviously the way that we interpreted that was like, whatever it was that Mark and I couldn't see, Frances could see, and she was comparing this, like, ghoul fucking statue to whatever it was that made that noise in the house. So I was walking my dog down the street, and we had a new neighbor, and he was also a landlord for, like, a small house next to him. And the tenant of that house had just passed away in the house. It was, like, really horrible. And so I was walking my dog down the street, and I saw Keith outside. And we hadn't, like, talked much, but he's, like, one of those people who's always smoking cigarettes. So, like, I would see him outside every time I was driving and always wave. So. So I was like, hey, Keith. Like, I'm really sorry to hear about your tenant. Like, it's really upsetting. And he kind of. He was like, yeah, thank you. And then he kind of took the opportunity. I could tell he wanted to talk to me. Like, he kind of took the opportunity to take a few steps closer and was like, what about your house? And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, isn't that Gloria Barber's old house? And I was like, yeah. How did you know that? And he was like, she worked on this house, too. And I knew Auntie Gloria really well. I kind of, like, looked at him, like, sussing out how down he would be for my ghost stories. And so I just said, she's still in that house. And he was like, oh, yeah, I absolutely know that. I was like, okay. And he was like, I also know secrets about your house that I'm not supposed to tell you. And I was like, what do you mean, secrets about my house? I think I'm probably entitled to. No, Keith. Like, what are you talking about? And he said, I know the man who built that house, and Auntie Gloria hid something there for him, and only he knows where it is. And I was like, well, like, what's his number? Like, let me. Let me. Let me find this guy. Like, let's get him over here. Like, let's find it. And so he gave me the carpenter's phone number, and I gave him a call, and I invited him over. And he picks up, like, on the first ring. I explained who I am. At first. I was just like, I would love to have you over for some coffee for you to teach me about the house. Like, there's, you know, these places in the house where there's burn marks against the wood, and there's all of these weird, like, Roman numeral carvings, and there's all these initials, like, in the cement in the basement. Like, I want to know all of this stuff, like, who's. Who did all this? And then toward the end of the conversation, I was like. And, like, I want to know about your secret treasure that Keith told me about. And he kind of, like, laughed. And I was like, do you really think there's something there? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 100% certainty. Gloria told me that he basically said we would use this secret compartment for storing tools while we were working on the house. Like, while the house was not lockable, people would come in and steal things. So we would hide stuff, like, in the secret compartment. And Gloria and I would joke about it all the time. And she told me she was gonna leave a bonus there for me to come back and get, but that I would have to be, like, invited in to get it. So I was like, okay, well, like, consider this your invitation. Like, come on over. Let's get that sucker out. And, like, you know, maybe we'll win the lottery or something. Like, maybe It'll be five grand. Who knows? So he came over and he showed me the spot, Talked, talked me through the house, showed me the spot, exactly where I would have to open up to access the secret compartment. But he refused to do it himself. I don't know why, but he was like, I don't want anything to do with that. And then I didn't want to be disrespectful to a deceased loved one. I didn't want to be like, gloria's haunting my house. Because I just felt like that's kind of rude. Like, if he was close with her, could feel a little bit disrespectful. So I just said something like, did you ever have any weird experiences here? Did you ever see anything or. And he. He told me this story of when he was working on the house, that the attic, it used to be like living quarters for people. Like, you know, in, like, the 1700s, people would sleep up there. And he said that one day he was. He was installing a window on the second floor, and these two kids were riding their bikes down the road, and they stopped in front of the house, and they were staring up at the third floor at that little window. So that would have been above him. And he stuck his head out the opening in the house and was like, hey, like, what are you looking at? And they were like, where's that guy who waves at us? He was like, what guy? And they were like, every time we ride our bikes past here, there's a guy in the third floor window who waves at us. Brian just said that the house had been empty for 15 years. At that point, there was nobody in the house.

Grace (50:24)

So this interview wrapped up, and I kept in touch with Grace as time went on, regularly asking her for updates, encouraging her to meet up with this man who might have some answers. And I also encouraged her to look for this hidden treasure and even offered her many harebrained ideas as to how she could go about looking for it and maybe even lightly destroying her house in the process. Finally, about a year later, I checked back in with Grace and caught up to get some updates. This is that conversation. Grace, how are you doing?

Jack Wagner (51:09)

I'm doing well. How are you?

Grace (51:11)

I'm good. It's been a while since I've spoken to you, and I'm sure you have a lot of updates for me.

Jack Wagner (51:18)

Yes. And we still have, like, some question marks, but I can tell you what's happened. Yeah, Yeah. I can tell you what's happened since.

Grace (51:29)

We last talked, where we last left off. You had spoken to your neighbor, who introduced you to a carpenter of sorts, that lives off the grid, I believe, and you had his phone number and that there was apparently a treasure buried or hidden in the walls for him. Well, we don't know if it's a treasure. There's something hidden in the walls for him.

Jack Wagner (51:50)

Yeah, there's something hidden in the walls for him.

Grace (51:53)

So did you call him?

Jack Wagner (51:54)

Yeah.

Grace (51:54)

Did you hang out with him?

Jack Wagner (51:55)

Yes, I did.

Grace (51:56)

Okay.

Jack Wagner (51:56)

I did both. I called him and hung out with him. So I. I got Brian's phone number from my neighbor, and I gave him a call. We Talked for, like, 20 minutes or so on the phone. I started by just telling him, like, I'm just, you know, I'm just curious about the history of the house. Like, I didn't want to scare him off by jumping straight to, like, one of your friends is haunting me. I just thought that would be, like, a little bit rude. So I just started with, like, something in the walls.

Grace (52:24)

Yeah.

Jack Wagner (52:24)

Yeah. So I just sort of was like, oh, you know, we love living here and, like, it' interesting space. And I would just, like, love to learn more about what that process, like, of excavating was, like. And we. He shared with me, like, a couple things over the phone. And, like, at the end of the phone call, I told him that I had heard a rumor that there was something in the walls that was placed there for him to retrieve. And he sort of laughed and was like, yes, absolutely. Like, total certainty. There is something in the walls. Like, there's a hidden. A hidden space, and I know where it is.

Grace (53:06)

He knows where it is. What did he. Where did he elaborate?

Jack Wagner (53:12)

No, he. But we scheduled a time for him to come over and point it out to me. So he came over, like, a couple weeks later. He spent, like, a couple hours with me, and we started just, like, talking about what the excavation process was like and what the carpentry was like. And he did tell me stuff just about, like, you know, some of the things that they found outside. And one of the things that he described to me was at one point they were, like, digging the foundation, and then they had excavated just, like, a portion of the driveway, too. And they found, like, the carpentry team, like, the construction team, found a fire pit that went down. Like, you know, it was carbon dated down, like, 8,000 years at least. Like, it had been used for fires for, like, 8,000 years. And then we, like, walked around the property, too, and he could like, pick stuff up off the ground. Like, there's all these I didn't know what they were until he came over. But there's all these little. They just look like tiny white cylinders everywhere. And he would, like, pick them up off the ground and he'd be like, you know, they were like. Not that. Like, they didn't have the science that we had, but they knew enough to know that if you shared a pipe, you would get the same sickness that the guy next to you had. So they'd make like these super long pipes, and then they just crack off the part that they used and like, throw it on the ground.

Grace (54:37)

And this is just in your yard?

Jack Wagner (54:39)

Yeah, just like in my yard, we.

Grace (54:42)

Have a different kind of pipe on the ground in L. A?

Jack Wagner (54:44)

Yeah. There's all these weird, like, stone fixtures around my house. And, like, some of them are like. There's a hitching post, right, like, where they would tie their horses up. Like, some of the stuff. I kind of knew what it was. But as we walked around the property, there were other things where he would, like, pause, like he was kind of like jogging his memory. And one of the things that he showed me were like, these marble slabs that had been repurposed into steps. And he said that they used to be gravestones. Like, you know, the old 1800s marble looking white gravestones that you see. So that was really interesting. And then I. It was like, time to talk about the treasure. Like, we were. I was ready to. To broach it with him. So what he told me was that when the house was under construction, they were always hiding things there because people would, you know, like, kids would come through the house and mess around at night, and like, if there was any valuable tools, they wouldn't want them to get messed with. So they found this place in the house where they could tuck things. Then nobody would find them. And it was like a running joke between Brian and Gloria that when she passed away, she would put a bonus in that space for him to come back and get. I asked him to point out to me where it was, and he went, like, straight upstairs and showed me that the place where this, like, secret room had been or is, has been like, drywalled over. So somebody at some point between his construction and me living here covered it. And he basically said, like, there was a trick door that if you moved into this house and nobody told you it was there, you wouldn't notice it. And so if you didn't like the way it looked, like it would make sense that somebody would just cover it with sheetrock, because it doesn't look like anything if you don't know what you're looking at. So basically it's. It's hidden behind this. This drywall. So when Gloria lived here, she only lived on the first floor because she had a premonition that she would die on the stairs. Brian told me all of this, like, that she would die going up or down the stairs. So whenever he came or like, anybody came to visit her, she would have people, like, run up or down the stairs and get things for her that. Because she refused to go up and down the stairs. So anyways, so the upstairs of the house is like a frame shotgun rooms. The pitch of the. Of the ceiling, you would say, is like, much steeper than the pitch of the roof. So there's like a big gap between the roof and the ceiling, and that's where the secret room is.

Grace (57:36)

Interesting. So this room now. This secret room that they had is now behind a bunch of drywall, essentially.

Jack Wagner (57:44)

Yeah, exactly.

Grace (57:45)

Does he. And did he say if he has any idea what might be hidden back there?

Jack Wagner (57:53)

No, he has no idea, but he has, like, total certainty that there's something there. So obviously I. I told him, like, let's, like, crack this open. Like, yeah, let's do it. Let's see what's back there, you know, and it was weird. He actually got, like, kind of squirrely about it and sort of shook his head and was like, not interested.

Grace (58:17)

Huh?

Jack Wagner (58:18)

Yeah. Which is super weird, right? Like, you would think if. I don't know, if he just, like, he's old, maybe he just doesn't want to take on a project like that. Or. Or maybe he doesn't want to, like, maybe he just doesn't want to be involved anymore. I don't know. I. I did call him afterward, too, and I offered again, like, I'll pay for, like, the materials, you know, like, and whatever's in there you can keep. Like, it's obviously for you. I don't. I don't. Even if it's like cash or whatever. Like, I'm. I don't. I just want to know what's back there. But yeah, he was not interested.

Grace (59:00)

That's very strange.

Jack Wagner (59:01)

Yeah.

Grace (59:03)

So have you gotten into the walls? Have you gone in yourself? Have you busted them open?

Jack Wagner (59:12)

Yeah, I did.

Grace (59:14)

Okay.

Jack Wagner (59:15)

So I had a friend come and I told him about, like, a kind of a handy friend come and like, cut like a. Probably like a one by three hole in the wall for us to crawl into and check out, and it was a bust.

Grace (59:30)

You sent me a picture of this. It looked like you cut A little hole. And inside of that was, like, a small room. Like, there might still be a room beyond that area that you cut into.

Jack Wagner (59:42)

Yeah, there's like. You're right. And there's like, I cut into one section of the room, and there are four sections of the room.

Grace (59:50)

Yeah, just like a little gap, almost. It was like a gap in the drive wall, really.

Jack Wagner (59:54)

Exactly. Yeah.

Grace (59:55)

I mean, I don't want to, like. I don't want to encourage you to demolish part of your house, Grace, but I'm. I'm really curious what's in this. What's in this secret room? Do you have any plans on going deeper one day?

Jack Wagner (60:09)

Yeah, I don't know.

Grace (60:11)

What do you think it is? What do you think? I don't think it's money.

Jack Wagner (60:15)

No, I think it's a gag. Like, if anything, I think it's a gag.

Grace (60:19)

Yeah. I think it might be, too. Like an inside joke, maybe.

Jack Wagner (60:22)

Yeah, like an inside joke. Like, if I. Because. So I also had an archaeologist come and visit the house who knew Gloria, too. And his perspective was, like, Gloria was an extremely, extremely practical person, and he does not think she would have left anything of value there.

Grace (60:43)

Yeah. Did you talk to this carpenter about Gloria's haunting the house? She was afraid to go up and down the stairs. You were having a lot of experiences near the stairs. What did you think of all of this, the haunting?

Jack Wagner (60:59)

I kept it pretty vague, but I did ask him if he ever had any experiences in the house, and he sort of laughed, and he said that Gloria believed that the house was full of spirits.

Grace (61:16)

Did you tell him about your kids seeing Auntie Gloria or talking to her?

Jack Wagner (61:21)

I. I did. I mentioned it again. Like, I. Like, I tried. I was just sort of, like, testing the waters to see if he'd be receptive. And his response was just like, I believe it. That was basically it. I believe it.

Grace (61:37)

Interesting. Well, have you had any other spooky experiences in your house ever since then? Has Auntie Gloria come back?

Jack Wagner (61:47)

I haven't had any experiences with Gloria. But, you know, a couple things have happened in the past few months that I feel like, have been, like, above and beyond confirmation bias. And the biggest one is my husband Mark. He went outside to, like, take the compost out, and he came back in, and he closed the door behind him, and he turned and, like, just looked me dead in the eye, like, had this look on his face, and I was like, what? He said. When I was walking back inside, right next to the garage, I heard somebody in my ear say, hello. He was like, not from a distance. Like not yelling far away, not inside. Like somebody right in my ear. And then they said, Francis, Francis. And he literally was like, I'm not talking about this anymore. Like once I was like, oh my God. He was like, done. Conversation over. I don't want to think about it. And I was like, okay. But my son and my daughter overheard him. And they were like, oh, the voice that says my name. Like the voice in the tree. And I was like, what? And they were like, oh, we hear that all the time outside. It was like very nonchalant, them saying like, yeah, that's normal for us.

Grace (63:11)

Wow. That's really terrifying.

Jack Wagner (63:14)

Yeah. Crazy.

Grace (63:17)

Oh, well, I guess we have to end this on a bit of a question mark. There's a lot of question marks with this whole story, Grace, but I guess this is ongoing.

Jack Wagner (63:30)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the weird thing is that like there's not like a nice clean narrative structure I feel like to these things most of the time. And there's not like some clear, succinct meaning to derive from it.

Grace (63:49)

Well, maybe one day you'll be back for another episode. But for your sake, I hope that is not the case. Hopefully nothing scary happens for a while.

Jack Wagner (64:00)

Yeah.

Grace (64:00)

Hopefully you get to have peace in your home.

Jack Wagner (64:02)

Thanks, Jack.

Grace (64:03)

Keep me posted on if anything changes.

Jack Wagner (64:05)

Sure.

Grace (64:06)

All right. Thank you, Grace. See you later.

Jack Wagner (64:09)

See ya.

Grace (64:25)

Okay. Thank you so much to Grace for sharing her story. Maybe she will be back again in the future with some updates. If that is the case, I hope that they're only good updates. You know, real life haunted houses are not as easy to investigate and solve as they are in the movies. Even though in many ways, Grace's house does sound straight out of a horror movie. I mean, it literally came with a box of ancient objects. However, real life mysteries are always more complicated. In fact, it seems like Grace's house probably has many mysteries happening all at once. I highly doubt it's just one thing. Grace told me that she heard Auntie Gloria herself thought that the house was haunted back when she owned it. And she spent a good amount of time trying to investigate it herself. I have encouraged Grace as much as I ethically can to keep searching for this hidden room. I mean, it's kind of hard to encourage somebody to destroy their own house in search of something like this. But I've even suggested maybe infrared cameras or a specific mechanics camera that can peer through small holes. Drill size holes. I've suggested a lot of ideas, Grace. If you ever do find that hidden room. Or if you decide to finally just take a sledgehammer to the drywall and need an extra set of hands, please give me a call. Thank you once again to Grace for sharing her story. This has been episode 116. The title is Auntie Gloria and you've been listening to Other World. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice, Jackal and North Americans. This episode was edited and engineered by Theo Shafer. Our artwork is by Cul de Sac Studios. Nikki Kate Delgado is our Associate Producer. Production help by Hayley Pearson. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five star review and telling your friends about Other if you want to hear bonus episodes, you can become a patron@patreon.com Otherworld Our social media is Otherworldpod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey, JD Crowley, Jenna Weiss Berman, Leah Rees, Dennis, Rob Morandi, Eric Donnelly, Matt Casey, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis and Hilary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something painful, paranormal, supernatural or unexplained, you could send us your story at stories@otherworldpod.com.