Otherworld – Episode 133: Behind the Curtain

Release Date: August 25, 2025
Host: Jack Wagner
Main Guest: Matt Baldwin (psychotherapist, musician), Pasadena, CA

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Jack Wagner interviews Matt Baldwin, a psychotherapist whose unique background in psychedelic-assisted therapy and Jungian thought gives him a distinctive take on his own paranormal experiences. The episode centers around Matt’s encounters with missing time, hypnosis, dreams, and UFOs, exploring not just the events themselves but how Matt processes and searches for meaning in the inexplicable. As Jack notes, this story is especially compelling for fans of Jung, Hillman, or Jacques Vallée—thinkers who have explored the interplay of mind, symbol, and the supernatural.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Matt and His Background

• [05:40] Matt introduces himself as a therapist (specializing in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy), musician, and writer.
• He discusses his early interest in consciousness exploration, both through psychedelics and music.
• Matt’s perspective is shaped by personal exploration, professional work in therapy, and a lifelong curiosity about what lies “behind the curtain” of reality.

“I've always been the kind of person who wants to look behind things and into things. I'm always trying to squint into the depths of things.” — Matt [05:55]

2. The Experience of Missing Time

• [13:00] Matt recounts moving back to Pacific Grove at 19 to care for his dying grandmother. He describes a peaceful period, living with her and sharing music.
• One night after a normal day, he puts a kettle on the stove—then, inexplicably, wakes up the following morning with no memory of the intervening 16 hours.
• The only evidence is a burned-up kettle, a frustrated note from his grandmother, and an “utter blankness” in memory, combined with a peculiar indifference rather than anxiety.

“There was an utter blankness, like a complete and total blankness, like a nullity and void of experience... It’s as if the film had been removed.” — Matt [15:15]

“There was a strange sense of indifference... I found myself unable to actually register the sort of the high strangeness of what was happening to me.” — Matt [16:55]

3. Lucid Dreams, Hypnosis, and the Search for Meaning

• [19:30] A period in Matt’s late 20s leads him to therapy for anxiety. Success with hypnosis for teeth grinding unlocks lucid dreams and out-of-body experiences.
• Matt becomes interested in occult practice, Jungian symbolism, and UFO literature (especially Mike Clelland’s The Messengers and the theme of “missing time”).
• He discusses the value—and limits—of hypnotherapy in exploring lost memories.

4. The Hypnotic Regression Session

• [28:32] Matt’s therapist sets the expectation: hypnosis is not about uncovering objective fact, but about inner exploration and possibly finding useful symbolism or energetic meaning.
• The session begins with Matt focusing on a candle, entering trance, and following his therapist’s gentle prompts.

Key Moments in the Regression ([29:50] onward):

• Describing the Experience:

  • Matt sees himself lying in bed, the room charged with a “magnetic energy.”
  • He perceives being enveloped and lifted out of his body, rising toward the ceiling and beyond.

• Emotional Intensity:

  • As he floats through the ceiling, he experiences non-sad, involuntary tears: “[It’s] a type of crying where tears just dump out of your eyes... not associated with sadness at all. It's almost more... a kind of raw, energetic intensity.” — Matt [31:50]

• The Red Room:

  • Suddenly, he’s in a small room with heavy red velvet curtains (evocative of Twin Peaks), lying on an exam table above a checkerboard floor.
  • Two images pulse in his vision: a gray alien and an empty white mask.

“I felt like I was being given a key to the experience... it was a mask that was using my own personal symbolic language to speak to me and to create this experience.” — Matt [35:10]

• Encounter with a Guardian:

  • As he tries to move through the curtain, a red-cloaked “Imperial Guard” from Star Wars appears, menacing him. He walks through it, facing his fear.

• Beyond the Curtain:

  • He parts the curtain and sees himself from outside, gazing at a massive, black-eyed gray alien head floating in the void.
  • Fixating on its “obsidian mirrors” for eyes, more tears stream as he asks, "What do you have to show me?"

• Journey to Sirius:

  • Willing himself “into the eyes,” Matt is launched through colored geometric landscapes, strongly feeling he’s heading toward the star Sirius.
  • He finds himself in a timeless space of geometric forms, sustained by a single ringing musical note, before his therapist brings him gently out of trance.

5. The Aftermath and Integration

• [41:50] Matt describes feeling mystified, a kind of awe and confusion; it takes weeks (or more) to process the regression.
• He reflects on the experience, emphasizing the importance of working with the symbols (“the flashing mask and gray alien head”) rather than seeking simple narrative answers.

6. The Confirmatory UFO Sighting

• [44:40] Some time later, while working as a social worker in San Francisco, Matt sees a physical, silent, tactical black triangular UFO over Noe Valley.
• The sighting is extremely vivid and "objective," more sharply real than either the missing time or hypnotic experiences.
• No one else seems to notice, and it disappears after a brief glimpse.
• The experience shakes him to his core, collapsing his sense of normal reality.

“Oh, my God, it's happening. Like, that's it. That's the thing, you know, this is what this has all been leading to.” — Matt [46:30]

“It destroyed my notion of how reality works. And now I'm building a new one…” — Matt [50:35]

7. Meaning-Making and Worldview Shifts

• [52:00] Matt’s sense is that these events were less about literal aliens and more about an “initiation” into a new kind of consciousness—involving symbol, awe, and the limits of the psyche.
• He distinguishes his perspective from the literal “extraterrestrial hypothesis,” instead believing these phenomena are entangled with consciousness in ways we can’t easily classify.

“I'm not an ETH person... this seems to be something that's much more entangled with our consciousness... I think it's a both end proposition.” — Matt [53:30]

• He references the occultist Lon Milo DuQuette: "'It's all in your head. You just have no idea how big your head actually is.'"

Memorable Quotes

• On the Mystery of Missing Time:
  “It’s as if the film had been removed.” — Matt [15:15]

• On Symbolism in Paranormal Experiences:
  “It was a mask that was using my own personal symbolic language to speak to me...” — Matt [35:10]

• On Hypnosis vs Objective Truth:
  “I think the trouble that people try to get into is thinking that they’re going to get some type of narrative clarity ... I don’t think that’s what happens with hypnotherapy.” — Matt [29:10]

• On Trauma and Awe:
  “These kinds of things are traumatic because they, like, just rip a hole in how you think reality works.” — Matt [49:55]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:40] — Matt’s background, early experiences, and professional path
• [13:00] — The night of missing time
• [19:30] — Hypnosis, lucid dreams, introduction to the occult and UFOs
• [28:32] — Framing hypnosis: art vs science
• [29:50] — Hypnotic regression: step-by-step walkthrough
• [41:50] — Processing and integration after regression
• [44:40] — Physical UFO sighting in San Francisco
• [52:00] — Philosophical conclusions, symbolism, and worldview shift

Notable Moments

• The insight that “indifference” (not panic) often accompanies inexplicable experiences, possibly as a psychological coping mechanism.
• The vividness and cinematic quality of the hypnotic journey—mixing personal, mythic, and pop culture symbols (Twin Peaks red room, Star Wars guard, etc.).
• The "objective" UFO sighting and its emotional impact, described as more shattering than any drug experience.
• The episode’s refrain: that meaning is found in symbol and energetic shifts, not in concrete answers.

Closing Reflection

Host Jack Wagner praises Matt for his analytical, unflappable approach to his own high strangeness, noting how rare it is for a guest to focus so intently on psychological and symbolic meaning rather than fear or sensationalism. Both host and guest highlight the importance—and the limits—of hypnotherapy, especially regarding memory and the potential for confabulation.

Jack notes that some of Matt’s music appears in the episode, and encourages listeners to revisit past interviews for further exploration of hypnotherapy and the paranormal.

For those interested in:

• Jungian and symbolic interpretations of the paranormal
• The intersection of altered states, therapy, and supernatural experience
• Real-life stories of missing time, UFOs, and hypnotic journeys

Recommended additional resources mentioned:

• Jacques Vallée’s work on UFOs and consciousness
• Mike Clelland, The Messengers (owls and UFOs)
• Twin Peaks (as symbolism)

“Ultimately... I came to look at this experience as a kind of initiation into a different type of consciousness. An initiation into a totally new worldview.” — Matt [53:50]