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A
Most home security systems only kick in once somebody's already inside your house. At that point, the worst has already started. In fact, I'd even go a step further and say that based on personal experience, you don't even think you need a security system until it's already too late. But Simplisafe is different. It's real security that stops crime before it even begins. Their advanced cameras can detect suspicious activity outside and live. Agents are standing by 24 7. If something's wrong, they step in right away, confronting the intruder, sounding alarms, and even contacting the police before break in even happens. Literally. Three weeks ago, I was on vacation and somebody tried stealing a package off our front porch. I got alerted on my phone while we were eating lunch. And then suddenly we had this live feed of a guy standing on my porch holding the package. I cannot tell you how bizarre of a moment it was, eating pizza at a table across the country and telling this guy, hey, put it down on a live audio video feed. It was a very strange moment. But of course, I'm glad I had the security system in place to stop it from happening. That's why I trust Simplisafe to protect my home. It was incredibly easy to set up and I love knowing whether I'm asleep or away. I don't have to be the one checking alerts. Simplisafe's agents have my back. There's no contracts or hidden fees, just reliable protection. And if you're not sure, there's a 60 day money back guarantee. Right now, Otherworld listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system. @simplisafe.com that's S I M P L I safe.com Otherworldpod there's no safe like Simplisafe. When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meeting or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com welcome to other world. I'm your host, Jack Wagner. This was one of those interviews that seemed fairly simple at first. But as I got to know the person and heard the story, every new detail surprised me and ended up adding so many layers to an already strange story. It comes from a guy named Mike. He's a father of two kids. He lives in Texas. And currently works in banking, doing fraud investigations. Before that, he was an army medic and was deployed during the Iraq War. His wife is from Taiwan and was raised Buddhist. And I think that all of these things from Mike's background make his story so much more interesting to me. He is a person who has experienced war and all of the extremes that come with it. He also has medical training, and it gives him knowledge of what can happen to the body and the mind under physical and mental stress. And that training is sort of intertwined in the way he processes the many things that happened to him in this story you're about to hear. And by the way, this episode contains a part with graphic descriptions of violence. If that's something you want to skip over. The scene takes place right after Mike walks into a store. I think you'll know what part it is when it comes up. This episode is called Holy Warfare, and you're listening to Otherworld.
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Hello, is this Bobby? Yes, it is.
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A
At its core, the science you can't argue with.
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I'm so worried about all of a sudden, up in the sky. It's almost frustrating that it's happening. I'm literally. I'm gonna die. Its limbs were just, like, wrong.
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Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute.
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My name is Mike. I live in the Dallas, Texas area. I'm an army vet. I was a medic for four years with a deployment to Iraq. Currently I work in banking and fraud investigations, and I'm an avid outdoorsman and family man. I've got two boys and a loving wife. I joined in 2009. I was about 27 years old, and I wouldn't say directionless, but I was still very much trying to figure out my place. I had considered joining the military prior to that, but my family, my mother was very much a 60s hippie, and my dad was sort of a libertarian. And so that was never really an option in our minds. So fast forward. I was 27 years old, didn't really have any career prospects, so I started talking to different recruiters, came across the army, joined up as a medic. Actually, as it was two parts. One part was I wanted to do the medical stuff. I wanted to help, you know, my fellow man, if you will. The other part of it was my wife, who I'm still married to. She was not a citizen at the time and didn't have a green card yet. She's from Taiwan, and because of that, I could not get security clearance. My original goal was to go in into the intelligence side because I'm fluent in Mandarin Chinese. So I figured that'd be a nice shoe in there. But that wasn't an option. And I decided to go in as a medic because I didn't need all the waivers and whatnot. Went in as a medic, did my basic training at Fort Benning, Georgia, ended up at Fort Hood, Texas. And during that time, about six, seven months after I got to my duty station at Fort Hood, we deployed to Iraq. It was 2010 to 2011 time frame, so as far as deployments go, it was fairly calm. But I had my fair share of opportunities to treat people. There was vbid incidents, a vbied, which is a vehicle born IED that went off in a market. I responded to that. They brought a lot of those casualties to our base, and I participated in treatment of that. And I got injured over there, so that definitely changed my path. And it wasn't anything heroic. It wasn't a vehicle bomb, nothing like that. I was actually in a minor vehicle accident and I broke my neck, so that really sucked.
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A
Do they give any kind of medal for that if you're in a car accident and injured in the battlefield?
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No, not at all. That completely changed my trajectory. I mean, I had intended. Once I got in and once my wife processed her citizenship, which she does now have, I was going to pivot back into the intel work. But due to the neck injury and a series of lung infections I had, I couldn't stay in. So I got out in 2013. Coming home was. Was obviously, it was great. You know, you're over In Iraq for 11 and a half, 12 and a half months, something like that, and you get home, you get to be back with your family. I didn't have kids at the time, so I couldn't empathize with my friends. I had children. It was really hard watching what they went through, especially leaving, getting back from Iraq. We go through a reintroduction process, and what it is, is you go through a bunch of psychological interviews, paperwork, things like that. If you recall back in November 2009, when there was a shooting at Fort Hood, that's where that happened, was in that processing center. So we come back. When I was going through the psych part of it, they asked me if I had felt anything like off, I guess you could say so, sure. Coming back is a little weird. Having been on red status, if you will, for 12 months, it's getting a little bit difficult to adjust back to civilian life. You know, you hear a loud noise, a car backfires. I Wasn't diving for cover or nothing like that, but it definitely triggers something in your psyche that just puts you on edge and you get a little bit of an adrenaline dump. That was a little bit tough to deal with on the relationship side, my wife is a total unicorn. She's a saint, so she was super cool. For me, there was a touch of PTSD there. I didn't claim PTSD until recently, actually, because of a stigma that came along with it. They'd love to tell you there's no stigma, but that's a bunch of BS and everyone knows it. So bouts of like I would call mild depression, maybe some, like, anger trigger issues, you know, like, you just get pissed off at little things. As far as leading up to this incident, granted, I got out in 2013 and I've been dealing with the VA since. That in itself was another nightmare. But there wasn't a whole lot direct paranormal stuff. I mean, there's been little things here and there. I've always felt like the specter of something hanging around. So. My wife is from Taiwan. She's about two years older than me. She grew up Buddhist, and when I say she grew up Buddhist, it was sort of passive Buddhism. Her family, they go to the temples, they'll do their prayers and whatnot, but it's sort of just in emotions. They do believe in spirituality and spirits, et cetera, even ghosts, but they sort of actively don't acknowledge it, if that makes sense. They tell themselves if I don't acknowledge it, it won't bother me. I believe that's not exactly true, but that's how she was raised. Now for myself, I was raised Catholic in Phoenix, Arizona. I went to a Catholic school called St. Simon and Jude. Even as far back as I can remember, probably starting in third or fourth grade, I had questions. I used to get in trouble quite a bit because I would question a lot of the teachings they were giving us. For example, probably later on in fifth or sixth grade, we were learning about polytheism and idolatry and whatnot. And the Catholic bent on that, the Christian bent in general, is like, you shouldn't worship idols. I got in trouble and sent to the principal because I questioned that and I said, isn't that what you're doing when you pray to Mary or one of the saints? Because if they're not deities, so to speak, why are you praying to them? And, you know, they didn't like that. So that was a fairly common occurrence when I was in school until I left there in sixth grade and went to Middle school to public school. My wife and I obviously have different spiritual beliefs. Hers being Buddhist based, mine being primarily Christian with also a belief in spirituality. Spirits, ghosts, things like that. She and I are sitting in our living room in Dallas area watching the movie Big with Tom Hanks. But we're getting to the end of the movie and Tom Hanks character wants to go back to being a kid. Now towards the end of the movie, he finds the device that he wished on to make him Big in the first place. And he thinks if he can wish on it again, he can go back to being a kid. The device in question is kind of a mannequin that looks like your, your typical western view of a Middle Eastern gypsy, right? Like a fortune teller type. He's walking up to it, there's some music going on and whatnot. And I make a comment to my wife. I say, you know, if you think about it, this, this mannequin is probably infested by the spirit of a djinn. And there's a pause in the movie right as I finished saying it. It was perfect timing. Silence. And then a disembodied voice in the middle of our living room sounded fairly androgynous, but maybe with a little female lilt to it. Just said, uh huh, just like that. And we both looked at each other and I didn't want to say anything in case I was the only one to hear it. I didn't want to freak her out. She said to me, was that in the movie? And so I looked at her and I was kind of excited. I said, so you heard that, right? And she was like, yeah, what was that? And she was trying to convince herself that it wasn't real. So she insisted I rewind the movie. So I did. And we went through it two or three times and there was no voice. It was in the house. And we even have like a little security camera in the house because we had, we have kids. And we rewound it and look back at the playback and it's on the video. And I don't have that video unfortunately, but you could hear it in the video. So that was the extent of it. We both got up and were like, okay, time to go to bed. And she, while we're walking back to our room, she looked at me and she's like, don't say anything about it. Like kind of teasing me because I like to point out when things like that happen to her because she tries not to believe in it. And it was just a little funny anecdote there that happened to both of us, so it was, like, undeniable. It happened to the two of us at the same time. So once the wife and I go to bed, it was sort of business as usual around the house. We get up, we get the kids ready for school, we go to work, et cetera. I work at home full time, so it's mainly my wife that leaves the house, which means I'm home alone quite a bit. And I do have a friend who's an army vet that's staying with me temporarily while he's finishing up some cybersecurity certifications and looking for work here in Dallas. The reason I mentioned that, being at home solo a lot, you know, there's a lot of silence in the house when the kids are at school. Now, typical happenings around this house that many people have noticed, not just myself, but we see things moving out of the corner of our eyes. We see shadows move across the wall. They shouldn't be there. Like the sensation of just somebody standing right behind you, about to tap you on the shoulder. Those kind of things. But some things do occur occasionally that are impossible to explain. And I'll give you a brief one of that that involves my buddy, the army vet. So for a while there, he was sharing my office because I had two desks and he was doing his schoolwork. I was out somewhere. I don't recall where I was. It was the middle of the day. I might have been out to lunch or something. And he texted me and he said, I don't recall what he said exactly, but it was something along the lines of, like, are you messing with me? And it kind of confused me. And I said, well, what do you mean? Were you just standing at the door smiling at me? And I said, no. And when I got home, we talked about it. He kind of walked me through. He was facing the exterior window, and he turned to look at something and saw out of his eye a person standing in the office doorway. Turned to look at the person, and we're talking. Turned, facing them full on, and saw them clear as day. He said it was a guy probably in his late 40s, wearing a white polo shirt and khakis, standing halfway in the door with, like, an evil smile on his face. He said he looked at him and was about to get up and, like, lunge at him, thinking he was. He was an intruder. And he just disappeared. Not like poofing the spoke or nothing. Just, like, he blinked and he was gone. But it really struck him. So my friend has also experienced a lot in my house, for example, there was the time he saw the person standing in the doorway and another time where he actually received a fairly serious injury. He was walking down our stairs. I live in a two story house. He was walking down our stairs and sort of towards the lower middle of the staircase. He swears somebody pushed him and swept his feet out from under him to the point where you can, you can envision it where he's falling forward, but his feet going first. So he's sort of like butt bouncing down the stairs. It was serious enough that he had a massive contusion from the upper part, or rather the lower part of his back and the upper part of his butt, so to speak, all the way down to where the middle of his hamstring. And it stayed for two weeks and there was hard spots and everything. I encouraged him to go to the hospital, but he didn't want to. But to this day he insists that there was nobody else around him and he did not trip. He felt like something pushed him and then swept his feet out from under him. Well, he told me, and I kind of laughed at first thinking that he was, you know, pull my leg or something. But when he looked at me with the seriousness in his eyes and then he sort of pulled the edge of his pants down, my reaction, and forgive my language, was, holy shit, it was bad. As a medic. We were both medics, but as a medic, that was the kind of thing that probably needed some kind of X ray or something because it was almost black, it was so bruised. So both of us being medics during our training at Fort Sam Houston in Texas, you might think it's a lot of run and gun stuff, the hole with gauze type thing, but it's not. There's a lot of classroom work. In fact, it's probably more classroom work than field work. That being said, we are very grounded people. We have to be. We have to look at reality. We have to look at what's going on and what the scientific explanation could be. We don't directly study sleep paralysis or those type of conditions, but we are familiarized with them. So we can tell if somebody's having like some kind of mental breakdown, if somebody's having a serious neurological issue. So you could, as a medic in Iraq, you are their first line. So when you're there and you're with your platoon, there's not a hospital close by that you can walk into and go to an er. They come to us. So we kind of have to be a little bit of A jack of all trades saying that to sort of elucidate that we see the world from a lens of how can I fix this, what's going on, and how can it be explained now, all that grounded in reality. I do personally understand about things like sleep paralysis, and I've had it a handful of times, maybe four throughout my life. Once, twice when I was a child and a couple of times as an adult. So I understand what it is. I understand it's not literal demons and monsters jumping on your chest and whatnot. It's a mental condition where your body is paralyzed for sleep so that you don't act out your dreams. And what happens is, as you're waking, you go between these two phases and your body's still paralyzed, but your mind is semi conscious and you're sort of manifesting. And a lot of the times what happens is we see these archetypes like the hag, the demon, the hat man. Part of it is transcendent through different cultures, which is very odd in my opinion. However, science can't explain it. It's common things that we see. We see it in popular culture, we see it in media, et cetera, and we manifest that as a threat to ourselves in that stage of when your body is paralyzed but you feel a threat. So I understand that it's a super scary experience. I've had it myself. It was scary, but I knew what was going on, and my intellectual brain was still present enough to tell me, okay, this is sleep paralysis. There's not actually a demon sitting on my chest. I'm gonna survive. And eventually it went away. And I woke up. And I woke up with the mentality of, like, man, that sucked. And that was really interesting at the same time. So fast forward to a few months ago. Today is August 26th, or let's just say it's August 2025. A few months ago, I was having kind of an off day at work. I work at home, so if I need to take a lunch break and take a quick nap, I have that liberty, which is great. So I was just doing my normal daily work. My buddy was in the house also. Nothing really major going on, but I just felt like crap. There was just sort of this darkness hanging over me, partly due to PTSD and just a general malaise of life that hits you every once in a while. So I decide I'm not in the right frame of mind to really finish work today. I'm going to take a. I'm going to get off early this afternoon, and I'm going to go take a nap. So it's probably around 3pm or so, and I go lay in bed in one of my rituals. It's frankly not a great ritual prior to sleep, but you lay in bed, scroll social media, you look at YouTube, et cetera. So I do that. I'm laying in bed, I'm scrolling through YouTube, just, just dumb stuff, you know, nothing, no paranormal stuff, nothing scary, nothing like that. And I hear what I think is my door opening. And I saw a figure walk into my room. And to kind of set the stage here, I have blackout curtains. So my room is very dark, even in the daytime. But I see this figure over my phone and it's pitch black. And so I lowered my phone because, you know, you're looking at a bright screen, everything in the background's gonna look dark. So I lowered the phone and I start talking to it, thinking it's my buddy, because we play practical jokes on each other all the time. So I'm thinking it's him. I'm not in the mood to deal with this crap today. So I'm basically like, what do you want, man? Like, leave me alone, et cetera. It didn't react. It just kept slowly sauntering across my room. And I remember squinting my eyes, like trying to get a clear look. I just couldn't resolve the image. Even though the room was dark, there's still some ambient light from like the bathroom window, et cetera. It looks like a shadow, but it has substance. It's hard to explain, right? So when you see a shadow, you can kind of tell it's a shadow. There's nothing there. It's two dimensional. But this was like it was a person. Like I was fully convinced that my buddy was in my room walking around, but I was kind of confused, like, why can't I make them out? You know? And then it kind of hit me that the body was totally different. My buddy is a tall, like 6 foot 2, stocky guy. And this thing was probably maybe 6, 6ish, but normal, lean, sort of milk. And it had substance. There was no color whatsoever. And it was so dark. It was dark even against the background of my dark world. It goes around the front of my bed kind of to the corner. And then it. It's like it crouched down and went. I couldn't see. It went to crouch down beyond the footboard of my bed, but I could hear what sounded like it was shuffling on all fours, which I thought was really weird because I know my buddy wouldn't do that. That's like, not just because he wouldn't do it, because that'd be kind of rude, but he just wouldn't get on his all fours and shuffle around, right? And now at this point, I'm sitting there like, what the f is going on now? I know 100% it is not my friend, because he wouldn't do that. There's a slight pause, a couple seconds of silence. At this point in my head, I'm like, I know I'm not sleeping, right? I've got YouTube on my phone. The light from my phone is in my eyes. I lowered it somewhat, and I could see around the room, but it's on. It's in my hand. I can feel it. I can feel the weight of it. I'm not sleeping. So now I'm starting to wonder. I might need to go into intruder mode. Is somebody in my house? Because this is 100% not a shadow at that point. The hands. I see a pair of hands, what sounds like rubbing on my sheets. And then human hands come up over my mattress, lay flat, and it starts rising up, and they're pitch black. I'm thinking, there's somebody in my room. And it starts to get real for me. You know, I'm thinking, there's a person in my room. I don't know who this person is. I'm getting a little scared here. There's a paranormal feeling to it, but there's also a danger feeling to starts rising over my bed, and I see its head and shoulders. It has form and substance. It has features, but there's zero color. No eyes. I can't even see, like, nasal openings. It's so dark. It's kind of snake crawling, if you will. Or crocodile crawling is a good way to put it. That sort of motion. It's crawling over. I could feel the weight. I could see the mattress, like, flexing from the weight of the body as if it was a real person. I was terrified, but I was also really confused. I start reaching over. I'm about to reach over to grab my firearm, and as soon as I'm about to reach for it, it's gone. Just like with the snap of a finger, it's gone. So now my adrenaline's dumping. My heart rate's up. I'm like, what in the hell is going on? I was sitting there, like, what I'm saying is true. I was sitting there wondering, what the hell is going on? Am I hallucinating? I mean, I haven't taken any medicines, Occasionally take CBD for sleep, but I hadn't had any of that in weeks. And so there's nothing that can explain psychologically, scientifically, what the hell I'm seeing, other than, you know, it didn't occur to me at the time, but it's like, is this, Am I, am I breaking down? And I don't think I was. I was just in a shitty place mentally, you know, not feeling well, not feeling well physically, and wanted to take a nap. There was nothing that could explain what would trigger something like that. And I think to myself, okay, obviously I'm not feeling right today. I need to put the phone down and try to get some rest.
- [25:41]
A
All right, we'll be right back after this quick break.
- [25:53]
B
Right now at the Home Depot, shop fall savings and get up to 40% off select appliances like Samsung. Upgrade your kitchen this fall with the Samsung bespoke four door refrigerator now featuring the dual auto ice maker with sphere ice only at the Home Depot. You'll have perfectly chilled drinks for every gathering. Don't miss fall appliance savings at the Home Depot offer valid October 2nd through October 22nd. US only. C store online for details. Are you looking for a podcast about.
- [26:24]
A
Pro football that doesn't put you to.
- [26:25]
B
Sleep with an avalanche of analytics or insult your fandom with brainless hot takes? Well, hi, I'm Dan Hanzas.
- [26:31]
A
And I'm Mark Sesler.
- [26:33]
B
Oh, hi, Mark. And we're the hosts of Heed the Call, the NFL podcast you've been waiting your whole life for. Heed the Call covers every game, every storyline, everything that matters, and we do.
- [26:42]
A
It all with a touch of mirth.
- [26:44]
B
Football is fun.
- [26:45]
A
Why shouldn't your football podcast be the same? Follow and listen to Heed the Call NFL Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
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B
So I fall asleep almost immediately, which pretty much never happens to me. I'm a. I have very bad sleep habits. It takes me a long time to fall asleep. So falling asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow, so to speak, is very unusual. And as soon as I went to sleep, I was in probably the worst nightmare I've ever had in my life. And to kind of give some context to that, I'm a very vivid dreamer. I dream every time I go to sleep, and they're extremely vivid, lucid, I can control them, et cetera. But this was totally different. As soon as I closed my eyes and was asleep, I was in this dream and I was me, but I wasn't me. I was in my body, but it was like I was a passenger. I could see out of my Own eyes. I had the same awareness I would during any waking day. But I was not in control of my actions. And there was something else controlling it in the dream, controlling me. That was sort of this third wheel passenger, so to speak, but they were holding the wheel. Now the dream progresses and I'm in this setting that looks like modern day. It's like I'm on any street with a bunch of stores, maybe an outlet mall, something like that, but it just looks wrong. What I mean by that is colors are off. Some colors are really dull, others are blindingly bright. And everything just has a weird sheen to it. I don't know how to adequately describe it. So I'm running down the street here and I'm at a literal sprint. My arms are flailing and I. And I say I in that my body, the actions, not me personally, was just laughing maniacally, screaming, waving my hands around just like you would expect somebody who's like crazed out of their mind to be behaving on a city street. And I'm sitting in there, the sort of the passenger in my own body, basically like, what is going on, right? I feel this darkness that's in me and that it's riding with me and outside of my actual physical body, laughing. There was also this sort of maniacal glee inside, laughing with me, almost like it was like, I've got you, I've got you now you're mine kind of feeling. So I'm running through here and I go into one of the stores and it's. If I recall correctly, it was some type of like kitchen store or something like that you would see at any strip mall. I walk in there, I'm looking around, I've got this big, almost painful smile on my face, you know, like Joker style from the cartoons. And I start just kicking shit over. I'm knocking over shelves, I'm throwing glass on the ground, just causing hell. It was weird, is in real life, people would probably be freaking out. And there were a couple people in the store, but they were just standing there perfectly straight up, like they were standing in attention, just frozen. And only their eyes were moving and kind of following me. And in the eyes you could see the expression. They were also locked in their own body and you could sense fear from them too. But they were not moving. They were like hosts. We're in this kitchen store, I'm kicking things over and I'm having a great time. Not me, but whatever is controlling me is having a great time. Which the real me being passenger, my own body was Absolutely terrified. Like, what is happening? I can't control it. This is not me, et cetera. Now when I say this, it might sound like I say it almost like it sounds fun. And the reason it sounds like that is because whatever was controlling me was having a great time. And it saw this broken glass on the floor and thought to itself, yeah, that's a great idea. Or like that sensation you get where you're like, ooh, I could do that. Something I would never personally do. And I'm sitting here like, no, don't do it. Because in the unconscious or the conscious me that's riding passenger could kind of sense where this was going. And I was basically screaming in my own head, no, don't do it. I'm like, I can't really scream here. But that's what it felt like. I was screaming, no, no, don't do it. And it belly flopped into all this broken glass. And mind you, this whole experience to me is ultra vivid. I could feel everything, I could smell everything, see everything. So imagine yourself diving into a pile of broken, sharded glass. And that's what it felt like. It was the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. I'm screaming in pain, but nothing's coming out. It was horrible. It was like doing snow angels in the glass on my belly. It was the worst feeling I've ever felt in my life. And I felt some really crazy pain. And this was just astronomically worse. And I could feel individual pieces of glass and like edges of things hyper vividly penetrating my skin, cutting, lacerating, puncturing the muscle. You know, I'm a chubby guy and it's puncturing them all the way through. It's getting into the muscle. And I'm thinking to myself, as a medic, I'm. Now I'm in the mode of holy crap. This could get in there and puncture my intestines. This could rupture my liver. You know, all these things are racing through my mind. I'm freaking out. And then it stands up and it looks down at me and I see just nothing but blood and shredded skin and pieces of glide like bigger pieces of glass sticking out. And inside I'm screaming in pain, I'm wailing, I'm crying, I'm like, no, make the stop. What the hell is going on? Just stop. And then I gain a fraction of control back and then it gets worse. Now, if you've ever been seriously injured, if you've ever had a broken bone, if you've ever been cut or stabbed by something like even a pencil. Every person's first reaction, yank it out, cover it, set it back and etc. So that's what I did. I started reaching down and pulling out pieces of glass. And this is the part where it gets very. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it, it was so painful. But it also started to get more hell, like slowly term. I can think of it as I'm pulling these pieces of glass out. It's sticking to my skin and I'm pulling and pulling and my skin is like almost the texture of like tooth bubble gum, right? It feels like I'm. I'm pulling out loads and gobs of skin and blood with it and I'm ripping into my belly and then I lose control again and it takes over again and pauses for a second and I'm thinking into myself like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I could feel like what it's about to do and it starts taking its fingertips and just ripping into my guts. And I could feel every bit of it. I could feel the skin tearing. I felt like the squishiness of my intestines, like the heat, the blood, everything. It was awful. And I'm trying to close my eyes because I don't want to see this, but it's forcing me to watch. And sorry, this is kind of actually hard to reach out. But I'm standing there tearing into my guts and I'm thinking like, this has got to be hell, right? How can hell be any worse than this? The pain is so severe. This is so undream, like in the sense that it's incredibly vivid and painful. And I could smell everything. I could. The smell of the copper from the blood and just the feeling of my fingers tearing in there and trying to grab my intestines. It's like, this has got to be. I'm in hell. I mean, there's no other explanation for it. I must have gone to hell. And this is part of my torture. God, that's really getting sweaty just talking about this, bro. Like it's. It's awful. It's about to like, get to the point where my guts are literally going to spill out into this pile of glass. And I snap awake. And now I'm awake. I'm sitting up vertically, straight up in bed, covered in sweat, breathing hard, my adrenaline's dumping. And I was thinking to myself, thank God it's over. But it wasn't. And then the real hell started, basically. And this is where it comes into reality again. I am 100% certain I was awake again. I was in my bedroom. My phone was still on its charging stand, et cetera. I was awake. I could feel my sheets. My bed was covered in sweat. I couldn't see the entity anymore, but I could feel just this presence around me. And I could sense darkness. And when I say darkness, it's not something I could physically see. Yes, my room was dark, but I couldn't see extra darkness, so to speak. Speak. But there was just this undeniable sense that I was surrounded by something so evil and malicious. And it feels like it's just surrounding me and trying to penetrate me. And then all of a sudden it was like. It wasn't like getting hit by a fist where it's like isolated to one spot. It's like my entire body felt like. The only way I could try to describe it is imagine you're hit with a mattress going 50 miles an hour. Like your whole body's just enveloped in a. Forced to the ground, right? That's what it felt like. I was hit with so much force that like pinned me back into my mattress. And it felt like this darkness was just trying to enter everywhere. My body, my soul, my psyche, my consciousness, it was just in there and it was trying to push me out. Whatever you want to call me, you can call it your, your psychic self, your spirit, your soul, whatever. But that's what it felt like, pushing me out, trying to supplant me. And I could feel laughter and glee. I felt like I was being pinned down to my bed. So like just force all around my body, holding me down. But at the same time I was getting like these rushes of sensation just emanating off of my body. If you've ever felt really, like really got the chills when you walked into somewhere, you just like that feeling. Now multiply that by like 10,000. And that was just, just happening in my body, like pulsing all over my body. There was electrical sensations. Like I felt like I was being lightly electrocuted. I was kind of convulsing. Not like a full on epileptic seizure, but enough to where like my muscles, especially in my arm and my legs were tensing so hard it started to hurt my joints. You know, my muscles are fully rigid like a full body charley horse. And my core is completely tensed and everything just hurts like hell. And it was such intense pain. And then there was also the spiritual component to that. I could feel it trying to supplant me, trying to take me over that type of thing. The laughter was super weird because I couldn't hear it per se. Not even like your inner dialogue. You could sort of hear yourself talking to yourself. And I. I couldn't hear the laughter in my head. That's not what I mean. What I mean is there was this just sensation of just evil glee that I could sense laughter and I could sense intent. And the intent was that whatever the hell this thing was was trying to steal me, for lack of a better term. And it was so excited because it finally had the opportunity. Like, that's the sensation I got from the laughter. It was identical to the dream. It was the same. I could tell it was the same entity that was controlling me. In the dream, the laughter was the same. The maliciousness feeling was the same. The darkness felt exactly the same. So whatever was in my dream was now here in my room trying to take me. And now I know it's real. It's not a dream because I'm fully awake. I am, I'm 100% certain I was conscious. You know, I could still see my room. I was going through whatever this attack was, but I was still aware of my surroundings. It's just now this thing is here trying to steal me. So I'm fighting this thing in my, in my own way. You know, growing up Catholic, there's a little bit of a Christian bent to my spirituality. But like I said, I was a rebellious teenager and dabble a little bit in the occult and whatnot. And I'm sitting here and I'm trying to fight this thing myself. You know, the usual bullshit where it's like, I reject you, you know, you are not welcome here. You can't do this to me. Yada, yada, yada. And every time I would try to fight back, the attack would get stronger and the laughter, this feeling of joy that this thing had about doing whatever it was trying to do to me, take me over. This feeling of joy just got worse. The convulsions got worse. Like I thought I was already fully stiff and rigid before, but it just got worse and worse and worse. The more I fought it, the harder it became to stay connected. And what I mean by that is I started to see everything going on from a third person point of view. Like I was actually being pushed out and hovered above my own body. At this point when I'm hovering above my body, I kind of come to this realization that if I lose this battle, like I think I'm going to be sent to hell, because that's what it feels like. It's like I'm getting pushed out and Being pulled down, so to speak. And I'm thinking now I'm going through all, like, what could this happen? Like, I'm thinking, at one point, I even thought to myself, okay, well, if I just give in, maybe I'll just be possessed. And if I have moments of clarity, maybe I could just look for an exorcism. Like, those are the kind of thoughts going through my head because I was just out of options. And I truly felt like I was going to lose. And then out of nowhere, I just got really calm and I said, and I want to preface this with saying, yes, I was raised Catholic, but I'm not a practicing Christian. There were many times in my life where I've kind of pushed God away, so to speak. I'm one of those people that several times through my life, I've given God the proverbial middle finger. Like, why are you letting this happen to me? Why are you letting this happen to my friends? Et cetera, et cetera. So I am by no means died in the womb Christian. And I just stopped. And out of nowhere, I said in my mind, God, I. I can't do this myself. Please help me. And it was totally out of character for me. I. I haven't prayed, and I. I don't even know how long. Quite the opposite, really. Like, times that could have been considered prayer was more of like, f you, buddy kind of thing. So this came out of nowhere for me. I don't think anything made me do it. That's not. I'm not saying that like, oh, the Holy Spirit came down and blah, blah, blah. That's not what I'm saying. But I said it. And, like, literally the millisecond it left my mouth, there was a sensation of. So I described a sensation of darkness. Now all of a sudden, there was just explosion of a sensation of light. And when I say light, I'm not talking about visible light. I'm not talking about choruses of, like, nothing like that. And it wasn't like the movies or whatever where all of a sudden I was saved. I woke up, hallelujah. It wasn't like that at all. This was a fight that I was now an observer to, is the best way I could describe it. And what I mean by that. I started hearing voices, so to speak, actual voices this time. And I couldn't understand it. There were a few that I could tell were in English, but they were sort of background. And I'll get to that in a second. But the voices I heard were in a language I couldn't understand. And just the sheer magnitude of power these things had, the voices had, was undeniable. And it was a long fight. This quote unquote light was pushing back against this quote unquote darkness for a couple of hours is how it really felt. And I actually later looked at the clock. It was about just under two hours of this. And it wasn't like the angels swept down and banished Satan to hell. It was nothing like that. It was back and forth. There were periods where the light would push, gain some ground, and I felt like I was becoming more attached. And then the darkness would push back and I was detached again. And I felt like I was going to lose. And this went back and forth and it was exhausting. Mentally, physically, spiritually. It was horrible. So the voices, they were. They were discernible voices. But it wasn't like. I don't know how to describe this. It's really tough to describe. The darkness didn't have a voice. It was full sensation of intention. Right. There was no audible voice whether it was out loud or in my head. Right. But the so called light did it. It sounded like I was in a crowded gym. You know when you get 500 people in a gym all talking loud to each other and it's echoing all across the gym and it's a total cacophony, it's super difficult to pick out any one conversation, but you could hear all of it. That's the sensation. Some of them were super loud. And then in the background there was sort of these whispers. And the ones that were the loudest, they weren't loud in the sense like they were yelling. They were loud in the sense that they just had immense power. And the only way I can describe that is imagine you're standing there and that voice starts to talk at you. It was so powerful that it would make somebody like drop to their knees kind of power. That's the sensation it had. In military, we call it command and presence. Like you're in the presence of somebody that just commands respect and they'll tell you what to do and you're going to do it because that person's presence tells you to do it. You know what I'm talking about? That's the kind of voice it was. And it was multiples, it was maybe three or four that were that intense. And it wasn't in English. I have no idea what language it was. It wasn't Hebrew or Aramaic or anything like that. I've heard those languages in like TVs and movies, nothing like that. Never Heard it before now. There were other voices that I could tell were English. And it was really bizarre because I could pick out one voice that I recognized. And it was the head nun of the Catholic school I went to. She was old. When I was a child, I could hear her voice praying. I couldn't tell what she was saying, but I could tell it was her. It was the craziest thing. I haven't thought of her, and I'm 43. I haven't thought of her since sixth grade, you know, which I was probably, what, 12? So 30 years I haven't thought of this woman. And there's her voice. And I knew it immediately. It was so crazy. It's funny, too. Like, when I think back on, I'm trying to remember it. I could still hear it sort of, like, in my memory. And I'm trying to pick out details as I'm listening to it, but it's just so jumbled. But that Sister Raphael, I think her name is, like. I'm pretty sure she's dead. But because I heard her voice, it was distinct. She was really the only one I could pick out. There were others that kind of had a sensation of being familiar, that were sort of lesser, like, quieter. But I can't really think of any more minute details. And then finally, just after a couple of hours, the. I'm hesitant to say it this way, but the light won. Like, it just fully got rid of the dark and then faded away. It was. No. It was an intense experience, but it wasn't like you would expect from, you know, I'm safe. Nothing like that. When this finally ended and I'm sitting there in my bed, fully in control of myself. No more pain, nothing. And I. Like, I have control of my soul. I could tell. And I sat there for a good 10, 15 minutes, just sitting there thinking. Or laying there thinking, is it over? And I was almost. Not almost. I was scared to get up because I'm like, okay, what if I get up and I'm still being intact and this is just an intermission, you know, I was terrified, but finally got up enough nerve to sit up, stand up out of my bed. I was damn near collapsed as soon as I stood up. Like, I was weak. It was like I just ran a marathon, kind of weak. And I go into my bathroom. I turn the light on, and my whole bathroom wall is a mirror. I look at the mirror, and I'm covered in sweat. My clothes are covered in sweat. I am whiter than a sheet. I'm completely pale. I look Like I've just been through hell, like the worst flu you could possibly imagine. But despite all that, physically, I felt good. It was very odd sensation. So when everything's said and done and they win, it wasn't this, like, it wasn't an explosion of victory and hallelujah, nothing like that. It just kind of faded away into whispers and then it was gone. But the room itself, hell, my whole house just feels lighter. I don't mean light like visibly lighter. I mean like if you've ever felt depressed, and I'm sure a lot of people can identify with this, you just feel a weight on your shoulder, in your chest, et cetera. It feels heavy. This is the most common way people describe it. But now everything just feels slightly lighter. After I leave my bathroom, I'm literally stumbling. Like I just got done doing a crazy hard workout. And he's at the kitchen and at the kitchen sink. So if you imagine my bedroom is sort of. If you're standing at the kitchen island, my bedroom's off to the left corner. So flip that I'm coming out of the bedroom, he's at the sink, he sees me come out, he looks at me, acknowledges my presence, goes back to doing his dishes or whatever he was doing. And then his eyes snap back up. Just like when you see something, you see it, but then you're like, oh, what was that like? You know, you snap your head. That's what he did. He looks at me and his eyebrows kind of furl. And I'm walking out, I'm looking at him, I'm, I, I'm wide eyed at this point, like, what in the f just happened? And I'm stumbling out there. He looks at me, he goes, dude, are you all right? Are you okay? And I look at him and I was kind of like that. Disbelief, head shaking. And it was no, but yes. And I kind of laughed like that. I was like, no, but yeah. And he's like, what the hell happened? And so I explained to him in the most gory detail I could possibly everything that happened. It took like 30, 40 minutes. And he's standing there, he's just like wide eyed. He believes every bit of it because he's seen stuff. He was pushed down the stairs and he's looking at me and he's like, dude, you need to go to church. And I was shocked because he's the last person who would tell anybody to go to church, right? And I don't, I don't think he meant it sarcastically. He might have because he's a Total smart ass. But I don't think he did. And I just kind of laughed at it. Like, damn. Like, maybe so, right? Like that kind of. And that kind of voice. And I shit you not, no exaggeration. Within a few seconds of us kind of giggling about that, my phone rings. Because I have my phone on me. I'm thinking I'm one of those people that my phone is like my leash. My phone rings and I look it up. I look at it. It's my buddy. He's. I don't want to give his identity away, but he's a federal agent, right? He lives down the street from me, and he's. He and his wife for devout Christians. And I'm like, that's weird. Because he's one of those people. You send him a text message on Wednesday and say, hey, bud, you want to hang out Saturday? And then you hear from him two weeks later going like, this Saturday. Like that kind of guy. He's so aloof when it comes to checking his messages and phone numbers. He never calls you. You practically have to go knock on his door if you want an immediate answer, right? He's one of those people. So him calling me was super weird church. He's got this very casual demeanor. He's just like, hey, man, you want to come to church with us Sunday? I had on speaker, and me and my army buddy in the kitchen looked at each other like, what the fuck, right? And I was kind of speechless for a few seconds. And I'm like, what made you think of that? He literally said verbatim, I don't know. Just felt like I needed to invite you to church. Just like that. So casual. Like, he was just sitting there in his couch and just said, hey, I'm invite Mike to church. It was bizarre. Now I'm getting, like, for lack of a better term, kind of excited. Not about going to church, but just excited that, like, holy crap, this is real. Like, something's happening. You know what I mean? And I'm telling him. I'm telling him everything that happened. The Cliff Notes version. I didn't want to spend half an hour, 45 minutes on the phone with him. And he was like, holy crap, dude. He's like, that's wild. So you want to come to church? That's the kind of person he is. That's exactly how he talked. And it was just. I was just like, sure, why not? Who knows? I mean, you know, at this point, what do I got to lose, right? So I did end up going to church with him. That Sunday this happened. I'm trying to remember. It was like a. Probably a Wednesday or a Thursday. And so I ended up going to church with him. I wasn't too enthused about going to church because my experience with the organization of churches, the buildings, the sermons, etc. They always felt super hollow to me. But this time I went to church and there's kind of that feeling. I'm not gonna lie, there was still that feeling. And it's. It's sort of a non denominational, newer age church where it's like lots of music and people are super upbeat. I've worked security before when I got out of the army, and I've worked at those churches and I've always found those pastors to be total frauds. So I'm, I'm already like, this sucks, right? But go in there. I want to keep an open mind. And the sermon the pastor delivered actually kind of struck me almost immediately because in the context of everything that happened, and I hearkened back to this whole, I can't do this myself. Please help me. It was like a surrender. I finally was like, I can't do this. I surrender. Please help. And that's exactly what he was talking about. It was crazy. Like, his entire sermon was about, we as humans ultimately don't have that type of power. We think we're the center of our own universe, and we think that I'm powerful, I'm my own God. I hear a lot of atheists say that. I've got friends who are atheists, they say that sort of thing. And I'm not saying this to preach, but the sermon he was talking about was like, you ultimately don't have power like you think. And the only way you could be saved, take that how you will, is by surrendering. When I say when you could be saved, I'm not necessarily saying saved in the Christian sense. I'm talking like, in my case, like, literally saved. I feel like I was, you know, my life was saved. You know, that's how I felt. And now fast forward, it's been a few months. I have gone to a couple different churches, just kind of lack of a better term, experiment. I went back to a Catholic church for a sermon to see. And I try, I even tried talking to the priest there. I started talking about a little bit of this and he immediately cut me off. Like, he kind of like literally rolled his eyes and was like, okay, another one of these guys, right? So that I was like, you know what, dude? And now I remember why I left The Catholic Church. Thanks for writing me kind of thing. I went to another one. I went to a Protestant church. These are all in my neighborhood, mind you. I didn't, like, go far afield trying to find stuff, you know, I'm in Texas. There's a church every four blocks. But I just don't feel connected to spirit in a church. I feel more connected when I just sit there and meditate and, for lack of a better term, pray and have a conversation. And that's what I do. And every time I do that, I feel a tiny little connection to whatever that power was that saved my life. It's a really indescribable feeling. Gives me the chills every time I do it. And I don't say that to say, like, oh, I'm special and Jesus has saved me and God has saved me. I don't mean it that way. I mean it from a personal sensation. Like, I feel like I actually am connected to God, for lack of a better word now. And even. Even then, I still, like I said, I still have bouts of depression and things like that. But at the same time, I can't deny that there has been a lot of good happening in my life since that experience and how I've been maintaining it going forward. So a couple months ago, I bought a home to use as an Airbnb, and it's right on a lake. I'm a total fisherman, so I was spending a lot of time out there getting it ready and also fishing, et cetera. So I was out of the house four to six days at a time. So I'm at the lake house, and it's three, four in the afternoon. I got a text from my buddy who lives with me that I was. That he was the one I told this story to when I woke up. And it's like three in the afternoon. He says, there's something outside of your door. Super cryptic. So rather than just text back and forth, I dial him and I say, yo, what's going on? He's like, dude, I'm staring at the kitchen sink doing dishes, and I notice just, like, something at your door, your bedroom door. And I say, what do you mean something? Like, is there package there? Like, I didn't understand what he was saying. I thought maybe he. Somebody put a box there or something. And he's like, no, bro, it's like. It's like a form. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, what do you mean, a form? He's like, bro, it's dark. And then it clicked. I'M like, oh, shit. I was like, you could see that? And he's like, yeah, it's just there. And I asked him, I was like, is it. Does it look like a person? Because what I saw, it looked like a person. He's like, no, it's just like a kind of a globular mass of something dark in front of your door. I said, what is it doing? He goes, nothing. It's just outside your bedroom door. I found that detail a little bit odd. Like, why was it outside my door? Why wasn't it in my room? You know, maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm reading into it, but maybe there's something there. Maybe it can't go in my room anymore. I don't know. But that happened. And he was, like, freaking out, you know, Freaking out in the sense of, like, Rick, you know.
- [57:23]
A
So is this all still ongoing for you?
- [57:27]
B
I think so. Like I said, it feels like it's still there. And there's times when I feel like that proverbial shield starts to weaken a little bit. And not because of whatever it's doing, just because maybe I'm in a dark place on any given day. And it sounds so cheesy, but what I find that helps sort of reset. I'll go sit and go in my room. I'll sit in my chair in my room, or I'll lay in bed and meditate and just have a conversation with whatever this power was. And I don't mean conversation like it's talking back to me. I'm not hearing voices, you know, nothing like that. Just saying, like, thank you for helping me before. I don't know what that was, you know, but I really appreciate the help. Thank you for some of these blessings that have been going on. I would appreciate some further assistance with this, you know, that kind of thing. Little kind of mundane. I don't know any prayers. I don't. I don't even remember how to say the. What do they. What do they even call it? The Lord's Prayer? I don't even remember how to say that. So it's not like strict praying. It's more just talking, meditating. But it seems to help. I don't know for sure what it actually was, but I do without. Without trying. I'm not trying to sound preachy here, but I am going to say, for me, it does feel like I've reconnected with God, the spirit as I know it. Since acknowledging that and since trying to be actively more connected to it, I do feel like the House feels lighter. There's still lingering things around there. It's almost like it's an ongoing spiritual battle, for lack of a better term. But undeniably, I feel like my life, my family's life, has gotten better since this experience and since I have acknowledged whatever that was, both good and bad. So now where before there were paranormal experiences, I know I'm not convinced. I know there are things there that I can't explain. But having this experience and getting to literally touch whatever that evil was and then also getting to touch whatever that light was has made me, like, just so much more secure in my belief in a higher power. And I don't take anything away from other religions. In fact, I'm one of those people that I think that other religions are probably connected. People have different ways of interpreting things. I'm not saying Christianity is the only word of God, et cetera. I'm just saying that for me, that was my slant growing up, and that's how I perceive it. I'm fully convinced that since I was a kid, there has been something following me around that is darkness. And there's been times of life where it's felt very strong. There's other times of life where it's barely there. And right now, it's barely there, but it's going to be there. I don't think it's going to be something that goes away magically. It's going to be something I think I'll deal with for the rest of my life. Okay.
- [60:42]
A
Thank you, Mike, for sharing this story. I know there was a lot going on with this one. I don't even know where to begin. Typically on this show, I would avoid stories involving dreams. But as he began explaining what happened to him, it was obvious to me that this was something else. At least much more than a typical dream. At least way more than the dreams I have, that's for sure. I don't think I've ever heard somebody describe real pain in a dream, let alone the type that Mike was talking about. I was really struck at a point in the story where he mentions thinking he was legitimately in hell. And another part where he said he was convinced that surely he must have died already and that what was happening was simply his fate being decided no matter what happened here. It's just so wild to me, imagining somebody having to even process thoughts and feelings like that for an extended period of time, like ever. Most people don't ever have to reckon with thoughts like that. Especially essentially in a random afternoon when he lays down because he had a shitty day at work. Then of course, at a certain point, he actually wakes up and all of this continues in the waking world. And that brings a whole other layer to what was going on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I thought what Mike went through and what he was describing was so horrifying that when he finally started describing this moment where the force of light comes in to his defense, I was locked in. I wanted to pump my fist with excitement just in hopes that Mike finally might have some relief and get broken free from whatever it is was torturing him. I mean, it was so horrible. And on top of that, I've just truly never heard anything described like this before. Hundreds of voices sounding like they're in a gymnasium, speaking languages. He can't identify some of the voices having command presence that can overpower you. And then of course, the fact that he zeroed in and ended up recognizing the voice of this nun from his school when he was a kid, somebody he hadn't thought about in years, I thought that was so specific and strange. This whole scene was so crazy to me. On one hand, what Mike is describing is very familiar. Familiar, you know, the concept of a battle between an army of light and darkness. I mean, it sounds like something you'd see on the COVID of like an 80s Christian metal CD, but in a cool way. On the other hand, the specifics are so unique and completely different than the typical story you might encounter when it comes to a spiritual battle. Particularly the fact that the. It went on for so long and it seemed to be kind of a fair fight, which is scary as well. I'm sure you can imagine a different version of this story coming from a smooth talking youth pastor, where in that version the voices of the light come in and banishes the evil right away, Completely triumphs over it. And then Mike received this message and he starts going to church. And he never stops going to church. It changes his entire life around. And wouldn't you know it, that man in the story is none other than the pastor speaking to you on this very stage. And that's why you need to donate to the church. And when you look at that, the offering tray is being passed around as we speak. Thank you so much. We all know the type of story I'm talking about, but that's not what happens. The battle was extremely long and difficult. The voices were unknown. There was no winged horsemen or golden swords. And even though Mike did end up going to church and several others after that, he didn't seem to find whatever it is he was looking for. Now I bring up Christianity and church only because Mike Mike did. And of course it comes up in the story with his friend. And in America, it's sort of hard to not see a story like this through that cultural lens. But honestly, we don't know what these voices were, who they were, who or what sent them, and in what way Mike might be able to stay connected to them going forward. It could really be anything. And I think, I think other cultures might have a completely different interpretation of the same experience. All I know is that personally I thought this story was really cool and I like the idea of this big mysterious group of voices, maybe even people I once knew looking out for me. I think everyone would like to thank that might be the case, especially after hearing some of the stuff that gets covered on this show. So thank you once again to Mike for sharing this story. This episode was called Holy Warfare and you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our theme song is by Cobra. The soundtrack of this episode is by Juice, Jackal and North Americans. This episode was edited by myself and engineered by Theo Schaeffer. Our associate producers are Nikki Kate Delgado and Haley Pearson. Our artwork is by Cul de Sac Studios. If you want to hear bonus episodes of Otherworld, you can become a patron@patreon.com Otherworld Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five star review, and telling your friends about the show. Our social media is therworldpod. Thank you to the team at Odysee. Leah Rees, Dennis, Rob Mirandi, Eric Donnelly, Maura Curran, Kate Rose, Colin Gaynor, Michael Lavey, Josephina Francis, and Hilary Shuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural or unexplained, you can send us your story@storiesotherworldpod.com.