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I started Ornod in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non technical people. We're able to admin everything on the back end, front end and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify so start your free trial on shopify.com. Welcome to Other World. I'm your host Jack Wagner. The story you're about to hear covers a long period of time, multiple generations, and honestly, so many different things that I'm surprised it ended up being just one episode. It comes from a woman named Ashley who grew up in the United States but then had to move to Mexico when she was just 11 years old. This was a huge culture shock for her and also a big change of pace, going from a relatively large city to a small rural town in a totally different country. Luckily, Ashley ended up settling in and really enjoying life in Mexico. And something that really helped her with that was getting to know her grandfather, who lived a really interesting life and had many stories to share with Ashley. But there was one topic that he did not enjoy talking about, something that took a while but to get the full version of. And that is what this episode is about. Just a heads up, this one contains some descriptions of violence that may be difficult for some listeners. This episode is called the Widower and you're listening to Other World.
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Hello, is this Bobby? Yes, it is.
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A
At its core, the science you can't argue with, I'm so worried about is
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B
up in the sky.
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It's almost frustrating that it's happening. Literally, I'm going to die. Its limbs were just like wrong.
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Everybody moves back into the light, even if it takes them a minute. My name is Ashley Villarreal and I was born in Los Angeles, California in 1989. I lived there until I was about 11 years old. When I was 11, my grandfather had a heart problem and so he had to go into surgery and we went to his hometown, which is this tiny town in Mexico, to visit him and to take care of him, you know, after the surgery. But my parents did this crazy thing where they left me and my 12 year old sister taking care of my grandpa for two weeks. And when they came back two weeks later, they came back with all their stuff. It wasn't a, you know, smooth move. It was a very all of a sudden you live in Mexico now. And so that was pretty Shocking, because we, you know, I had never moved from California. We had always lived in the same spot. And when we moved to Mexico, it was basically from overnight. And the cultural shock was interesting, you know, from living in California. We used to live near Anaheim, and then we moved to certain parts, like Fullerton and things like that. So that was like, the biggest moves I had ever done, which was inside of la. And so when we moved to Mexico and I go to this town where, you know, my school didn't have a desk for me. There was no, like, cement on the streets. There was no supermarkets. Everything you bought, like, the fruits and the food, you bought it from, like, particular people. The news was given out in, like, this little car that passed with a huge sound system. So it was very shocking. It was like traveling back in time. It was hard when we made the move like that, you know, there wasn't a chance to say goodbye. And I was 11. And also, phones, like, cell phones didn't exist, so the only way I had to communicate with people was through email. And barely, you know, I was. I was a kid, so it was more of letting go, you know, My parents were very. I. I would call it unstable for a bit. Like, they liked to move around even if we were inside the same area. So I was very used to leaving schools, you know, moving from school to school and losing friends. So. And when it comes to that, it was kind of not that hard. But what was very hard for me was, you know, my family, we. We had my cousins in California, and I grew up with them. So it was very hard from one day to another to basically have brothers, and then, no, then it's just you. And also, I knew Spanish. You know, my mom had taught us Spanish as a first language, and English basically as second. We learned it in school, but I didn't exactly know how to write well in Spanish. I knew how to speak it, but it was a very tricky transition because I was already in fifth grade. So when, you know, first day of class in Mexico, they start, like, telling me to write things down. And I was in complete shock. So it was a pretty rough transition, like, from one day to another, a life change. But at the moment, obviously, I felt very attacked by the world and angry and sad. But it took me, I think, if I had to calculate, probably two weeks to be very happy. I fell in love with the town, and I fell in love with the people and the friends that I made. There are still my friends today. I think it was a great change. I just, at the moment, didn't see it that way. So when we moved there initially, you know, the move was rough for, you know, all the reasons that I already told you. But one of the things that started getting me comfortable and settled in Mexico was being able to be so close to my grandfather. We moved into his place, which is a big house that we had been to maybe four or five times in my whole life. One of the interesting things was that, you know, when I was getting to know him, I was getting to know him on a personal level, and I didn't really know, you know, about his life or his professional life. And when I would, you know, go out or go to school, you know, one of the first things that people would ask me, and I'm going to change his name for privacy reasons, but I'm gonna call him Carlos. And they would ask me, you know, are you Carlos's granddaughter? And, I mean, it would be like if I was a celebrity's granddaughter. And I. I was always very shocked about that. I wasn't used to that, because in California, nobody knows you. You know, I was nothing compared to, like, what I became when I moved to this little town. All of a sudden, if I was walking down the street, people would wave at me and, you know, say, like, say hello to Carlos for me. And I had no idea who these people were, but everybody knew me. And so it was a very beautiful way to start to understand, you know, the level of person, you know, that my grandfather was and how many people loved him. That, to me, made the move to that town smoother, because I felt immediately taken care of, even by strangers and people that I didn't know. And it was this feeling that I had never experienced in the United States, you know, and in Mexico, it's this very welcoming environment. You know, people knew, for example, that I couldn't write perfect Spanish. So they would. My teacher at the time and the other teachers from this elementary school, which, by the way, was public, and, you know, they did not get paid extra for this, but they would take turns after class to teach me, to stay with me and make sure that I was learning and that I was making it easier for me. And I feel like those are things that made me immediately feel attached and. And loved, you know, in that little town. And then in terms of friendship and fun, I learned how to have fun in a very different way. I feel like in California, fun usually meant going out somewhere or doing something really cool. You know, going to a museum or going to Disneyland or going to a park. And here in this little Town, all of that was out of the picture. So the fun was going to the downtown and getting what we call raspados, which is like ice with flavoring. And then people would. The activity was to walk around that little block and say hello to everyone. So everybody just said hello to everyone, like over and over. And that was fun. You know, that became fun to me to be able to know everybody in the town and to be able to have friends and know their mothers and then know their cousins. And so it was a very welcoming environment. My grandfather is a very interesting person. I knew that from, you know, the get go because he's just a wonderful person. But I didn't know, you know, his history or his life either politically or professionally speaking, until we moved to that little town in Mexico. And that's where I started learning about his childhood, amongst many things. Right, but so he started telling me the story of his life. And it, you know, it begins with him being a very young boy. He is one of 11 brothers and sisters. So he comes from a very big family. And they are, you know, his father and mother were from this little town in Mexico, which will remain nameless, but they grew up in a very poor environment in terms of money. He. His father passed away when he was around 14 years old. So his mother was left to take care of, you know, 12 children. And the only thing she knew how to do was make bread. So, you know, he always tells me that the story that she would make bread, like at 4:00am, you know, she had the bread ready and she would put baskets in all of their heads and then like fill the baskets with bread and then send them out to the town to, like, different parts of town to sell the bread as much as they could. And that's how they survived for many, many years, until my grandfather was a little older, old enough to get into middle school, which, you know, he describes to me was not normal at that time. You know, studying wasn't part of the equation. And we're talking, you know, this is Mexico. If I had to put a year to it, it would probably be like the 40s. So a very long time ago, he says that he wanted to enroll into school because he would, you know, see all these kids coming in and out and he wanted to live a normal life as much as he could. And he enrolled himself. He didn't even know like what grade he was going to get into or what he was getting himself into. But he said, he just like walked up in there and said, I want to study. And so according to the age they put him in a group. And it was pretty quick that they realized that he was very talented. He was great. His, his favorite subject was math, but he was great at poetry too. So he did a lot of poetry contests and a lot of writing. He was just very into learning. He was a big, big nerd, as he always says. He was a very cool nerd. He had a lot of friends and he also did a lot of, you know, I don't know how you would say this in English, but like, like he, he did a lot of mischievous, I guess, things. So he always, you know, laughs about his past and how he, you know, growing up had, you know, these two types of sides to himself where he was super strict and smart and committed. And then on the other hand, he loved having fun and going out on the town and things like that. But during middle school he learned that about himself, that he really loved to study and that he was good at it. So when it was time to pass to high school, he did. And he also went to the only high school that was in that town. And that at that time, he met a professor which would change his life. And that professor changed his life by noticing him and applying in his name for a scholarship. My grandfather didn't even know that this could be done. So this professor is the one who did all of that for him. And he got him this major scholarship to be able to study a professional career at a university in Mexico City, which for my grandfather was impossible to even dream of. But this professor didn't take no for an answer. He told him, hey, you have this scholarship and you're leaving. So he even, you know, lent him money for the move and everything. And my grandfather from there forward, you know, says his life changed completely. After he accepted the scholarship. He moved to Mexico City and he started studying at a university called El Instituto Politecnico Nacional de Mexico, which is the most important school for engineers. And he describes it as a very eye opening experience for him to live in the city. He comes from this tiny Mexican town where, you know, the, the coolest thing you could do is like have a ranch and have a cow. And all of a sudden he's in the city that is compared to like New York. You know, he is living a life that he couldn't imagine he could live, but he's also living it, being very careful, you know, with his studies and with his money. He's sending half of it to his mother. He's still taking care of his brothers and sisters from far away. So he describes that time as a lot of, like, growth and fun, but also very. A very serious time in his life where he also liked what he was studying, you know, and he figured out that he was very good at it, and he wanted to become, like, the best civil engineer in the world. So he. He took out the nerdiest parts of him, and it paid off. He got into a lot of competitions, and a lot of teachers wanted him to get involved in other things out of school. And that's how he started to get his professional career going, even before he had graduated. And it was also during this crazy time that he met my grandmother. This is a funny story, because he always says that he wasn't supposed to end up with her. He had asked one of his classmates to go on a date with him, and they did. They went on a date. But he says that when he went to go pick her up at her apartment and the door opens and it's his date's sister. And he says that in that moment, he fell in love. It was like love at first sight. And he was so worried because he thought, I'm going on a date with the wrong sister. Like, I should not continue this date if I ever want a chance with this girl who just opened the door. The. His date comes out. He, of course, isn't going to be rude, so he takes her on a date. You know, at the end of the date, he told his current date that he had really liked his sister, like her sister, and that he would like to approach her if that was okay. And thankfully, his state wasn't bothered by it and, you know, laughed it out and just said, sure, just give it some time, because, you know, we just went out on a date. So my grandfather did. He waited a couple of months until he approached them again. You know, he. He says he went back to the apartment, asked for a date, and he got it. And, you know, he explains that first date as the best night of his life. They. They went to a movie, and that was it. And he just says, like, it was the best date because we didn't have to talk. But he just. He just wanted to be with her. You know, he just wanted to sit with her. So, you know, he. Whenever he talks about my grandmother, it's like his whole face lights up. And he just starts talking about how funny it was and how he used to joke with her a lot about, you know, if you misbehave or if you do something, I'm gonna go back to your sister. And, like, they had that running joke forever. During this time when he starts to date my grandmother, he is also about to graduate. So it's. It's a very defining time in his life. And he figures out pretty quickly once he starts dating my grandmother that she is the woman he wants to marry. But he is also very young, and he has, in his own words, nothing to give her. You know, he didn't have anything to offer her. So he starts working really hard. He starts in a company where he starts as a civil engineer and in, like, a low position and slowly starts, you know, going up and up and up inside of the company. And, you know, he describes this time as his dating time with my grandmother, but that he kept promising that, you know, they're going to get married and they're going to get married, and my grandmother would just, you know, say, don't. Don't even mention it until you have a ring. And, you know, there were different times, but they were both very into each other. And he knew from, in his own words, from the first date that she would be his wife. So he describes it as he had an objective now. You know, he wanted to have this professional life, not only to help his family now, but to build his own, you know, to have a wife. So at this company that he started working in, he started working as a civil engineer, and he worked in projects, mostly building bridges for the roads in central Mexico, but he started basically as an assistant position and overseeing these big sites and projects, and then slowly started, you know, becoming more and more important within these projects. And as that happened in his personal life, he decided it was time. So he asked my grandmother to marry him, even though, in his own words, again, he didn't have anything yet, but he knew he would. So they got married very quickly. I believe they had been dating for about only a year and a half. You know, like, it was pretty quick for. For that time. And they get married, they move in to this part of Mexico City that is very famous for being a terrible part of the city. There's a lot of poverty and there's a lot of crime. And, you know, my grandfather says that this is where they had their first apartment. And he would come home from work every night, you know, exhausted, and he would apologize to her. He would tell her, I'm sorry, we're going to move out soon. Like, I promise I'm working. And she would just say, you know, in that time that she was the happiest woman in the world. She didn't need anything. But she also knew, you know, she would always tell him, I know. Like, I know we're gonna. This is gonna change. I know I married a very talented man. So whenever, you know, he tells this part of the story, it's very heartwarming. You know, they both had so much love and, like, faith for one another that things were going to work out. So even though he always laughs at this part as, like, a defense mechanism, I think to think that it was such a horrible part of town and, like, such a horrible experience. He also says it was what made him feel like, you know, this was the love of his life, that she could live anywhere with him, and he would feel like, you know, the king of the world. So that was, like, a time in their life where, as a couple, they grew very close. And also, it is where my grandfather, you know, my grandmother and grandfather got pregnant for the first time. She got pregnant of their first child. He started doing a lot better at work, and he started getting ascended. So he moved out of that apartment into another area of Mexico. And, you know, he always describes that as, you know, the beginning of his very, very successful career. So after they move out of this bad side of town, my grandfather's life starts to change professionally. He not only leads, like, these small projects, but he becomes a very important part of the company. When my grandfather became a very important person for the company he was working in, he also opened his own company. And in this company, he had a lot of, you know, big group of civil engineers working, building huge projects for the government, building bridges, and building roads for the central part of Mexico. So he was very busy, and. And he had to deal a lot with politicians because of it. And my grandfather's life changed from completely, you know, black to white, basically. He went from being this very poor man to having anything you can think of. You know, he. He bought a huge house in the best part of the city. They had chauffeurs. They had more than one maid. And my grandmother was just busy having babies. You know, she. She ended up having four. And at this point in time, they're doing really well. You know, he. He's a very important businessman. She is a very beautiful young mother. She even modeled for some time. She. She was a model, and she was, like, in covers of magazines for Mexico, and she was very beautiful. So she. She knew how to. How to exploit that part of herself. And, you know, my mom always says that the common thing for them was to wake up and she was already in the hair salon. Like, she would have her hair done every morning, like this life that was just completely, you know, my grandfather's dream. He wanted to give her everything he could and he managed to do that, you know, he managed to give her the best type of life you could give someone, I think.
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A
All right, we'll be right back after this quick break.
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B
What is that?
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A
Oh, yeah, it's a World cup holder.
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B
Like the soccer tournament.
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A
World cup holder for the world. Fits every car, holds every cup.
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B
It has a Carvana logo.
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A
Carvana made it. They buy and sell cars, so they made a car cup holder. So. Got any good cups lately?
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B
Used to. Just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them.
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A
The World cup holder brought to you by Carvana. Proud sponsors of the World cup holder, sign up today to win yours@cup-holder2026.com not authorized or endorsed by FIFA. Not a real product. For parody and fair use purposes only. This is Cade Courtley, former Navy Seal, sniper and platoon commander. I've seen what happens when the lights go out. And after Hurricane Helene left 4 million Americans in the dark for days. I'm giving you the same advice I give my own family. Get backup power now. So to celebrate July 4th, get the best selling Patriot power generator, 2200x with a free mini generator to charge your smaller devices. That's double the solar power. Absolutely free. Because as a SEAL, I learned two is one and one is none. You'll recharge twice as fast for true power independence. This generator will run your fridge, charge every phone in your house, keep critical medical devices alive. All without a drop of gas or deadly fumes. Get $100 off if you're a senior or veteran like me and take a full year to pay. Why such a crazy deal? Because July 4th is our holiday and you deserve it. This sale ends July 7th. Go to fourpatriots.com that's the number four patriots dot com. Don't wait.
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B
Get peace of mind at Fred's Appliance. We know that real life is piles of never ending laundry. But relief can happen. For those who shop at Fred's Appliance. We don't do gimmicks. Just clean laundry and everyday low prices. Right now all laundry is on sale from ge, lg, Maytag and more. Save big on top load and front load washers and dryers. We're here whenever you need us. Shop the largest supply of in stock. Get it today inventory in the region only at Fred's Appliance. So at this point in time, they have had four kids. One of them is my mother My mother was kind of like in the middle. She was the third child out of four. And at that time she was 14 years old. And she describes that time as, you know, being wonderful and beautiful and her life, her upbringing was just full of privilege and a lot of happiness and love. And she always describes my grandparents as being extremely in love with one another, annoyingly so, according to her. And so at the same time that, you know, they're having such a beautiful life, my grandfather's job is getting a little more stressful. He's dealing with projects that get a little more complicated just because of the size of them. You know, they are huge projects and he has to do huge budgets for the government. And at this time, my mother is 14 years old. It was during August of 1979. So it's, it's a very beautiful time for my mother and her family. And she describes this evening as a completely normal Sunday night. Her mom had made them hot dogs for dinner and they had had it in the dining table together. And after they finished, everybody went up to their own bedrooms to, you know, settle for the night. So my mom says that they each had their own bedroom. So my mom had her bedroom and her, she had two brothers and one sister. And they each went into their individual bedrooms to call it a night. But you know, they were still awake. They were just kind of hanging out like you do on a Sunday evening. And my mom says that all of a sudden they just heard the, the door, their front door in their house was made out of glass. So she said they heard the glass breaking. And by the time they had gotten up to their doorway, like in their bedroom, the men were already in the house. They were carrying two guns and they were walking down the hallway that led to my grandparents bedroom. And so my mom says that the only thing she managed to grab was a pair of shoes that she was wearing. And she took them off her feet and she started throwing them towards the men. But she says that they were coming in so fast she's not even sure that the shoes hit them. And then they proceeded to go into my grandparents bedroom and they shot my grandfather and they shot my grandmother multiple times. And you know, my mom describes that as the most terrifying moments of her life because she wasn't sure what had just happened. And she says they took the shots. And then as quickly as they took the shots, they left the house. They didn't bother to, you know, either shoot the kids or anything. They just walked right out of the house right where they came in from. But My mom says that they ran towards her parents bedroom and my grandmother was on the floor. She had been shot and my grandfather was not. He had managed to grab this huge television set that they had in front of their bed to throw it at the men. And when he did that, the men shot him and the bullets got stuck in the television. So he survived. But the men, they did it so quickly, I think they didn't even notice. And so when my grandfather is laying on the floor with my grandmother and my mother describes this as, you know, the most traumatic experience of her life, she's seeing her mother pass away. And you know, my, my grandfather is in a state of shock, holding my grandmother. And my mom says it took a couple of minutes that she was alive for a little bit, managed to say a couple of things. But you know, the things she managed to say were like, if she was going to survive, you know, like the, the ambulance will be here soon and everything will be okay. But she passed away. And when the ambulance arrived, it was too late. My grandfather, the only times that he has like talked about the event itself, he always says that he feels like it was very unfair. He's. He's very upset at what we would call God because he, he feels like he should have died. You know, whenever he thinks about that moment, that's all he ever says that he tries to forget about that moment because he, he should have died. You know, he always says that, that he, that that was wrong and that he's sure that like destiny, something got twisted because it shouldn't have been her. But he, in terms of detail, doesn't give much. He just describes it as the worst day of his life. And you know, he says that after she passed away, he like kind of came back to himself for a second and you know, told the kids to get out of the room. So he, that's the only thing he's told me that he got up and told them to go to their rooms. And he regrets that too. You know, he says like, I should have stayed with them. I should have hugged them. I should have, you know, we just lived something severely traumatic. But he told them to go to their rooms and wait until police and ambulance came. And part of me wanting to tell this story now is because he doesn't speak English and also he doesn't speak about it at all, even if it's in Spanish. He considers it the most important event in his life, but also obviously the most tragic. But I feel like it's important to talk about it in a way to remember my grandmother and the way she died so unfairly. Once my grandmother passed away, my grandfather called the police. The police came to the house and took my grandmother, but they also took him to the police station because he had become immediately suspect number one. And, you know, they took him in to interrogate him. And then in the morning, they brought in my mother and her brothers to also give their interrogation. But the way that my mother describes it is that they separated the children into different rooms and told them that their father had confessed and that he had been the one who shot their mother. And my mom says that she was very scared and she was very angry because she, of course, knew that this wasn't true. She had been in the house. She knew that two men had come in, and she said that they were there for days, interrogating them and telling them he already confessed, and they wouldn't let them see each other. So this went on for about two weeks. And they were trying really hard to. To keep him in jail, but they couldn't, because, you know, the kids, they were not breaking, and nobody, you know, they refused to lie that way, so they had to let him out. After he is released from jail, he realizes that this has to do directly with a specific politician who he did not want to make deals with because these projects and deals had to do with huge projects that would require him to inflate numbers and therefore participate in, like, massive amounts of corruption in the government. And my grandfather did not want to get involved, and so he declined. And right after he did that, this happened, you know, and so my grandfather knew at that moment that my grandmother wasn't supposed to be the one who died. It was supposed to be him. I'm being intentionally vague here with the details of, you know, people, because it's still a subject that scares me a little bit. It probably shouldn't, but because it's so far in the past. But we are talking about very powerful people who, you know, do very horrible, corrupt things in Mexico. After he comes to this realization, he decides to leave Mexico City as well as, you know, his former colleagues do, too. He meets up with them one last time. They basically shut down the company illegally. And my grandfather decides to leave to sell the house and to go back to his hometown, where, you know, he's from, and to bring his children with him, which. That part. Eventually, his children go back to Mexico, but for the moment being, they all move back to the city of. To this unmentionable small town. And he goes back with the sense of wanting to, like, fix things. So he becomes a politician himself. So this is eventually the town that he moves back to, which is his hometown, is the town that I end up moving two years later. And this is the town where he has this change, and he becomes a politician. He decides that he wants to fight corruption for himself. You know, he wants to make sure that in his town where he's brought up, these type of events don't happen. He starts to bring a lot of projects for growth for his town. He, you know, becomes a politician. He starts canvassing basically in the streets, and he eventually becomes mayor of the town. And, you know, the way he describes it to me is he give. He would give money from his pocket to the town. Like, the town was so poor, it was so little. And he wanted to see it grow, and he wanted to see it prosper. He made it, like, his life objective to basically bring this town up. I think he wanted to erase so hard, like, what had happened in Mexico and his previous life that he completely focused into work. He became a very strong politician for this. For this small town, which eventually, you know, would be the town that I moved into. And that's why people would recognize me all the time. Because of his history with the town, he did a lot of amazing projects. He built a lot of bridges around the town to connect to bigger cities. He put cement in the streets, which, you know, doesn't sound like a big deal, but at the time, it was a huge, huge deal. You know, from having a dirt road to having an actual road. He did a lot of projects like that. He built more schools because he wanted there to be more than one option for each level of education. I could honestly continue, like, listing the things that he has done for this town to date. You know, even though he's not an active politician, he's still in a lot of groups, and he's an advisor to many politicians at the moment. You know, to keep. He. He's obsessed with this town. He loves it. I think he transformed his heart, kind of, and he poured it into this town after, you know, years later, I move to this town of his, and we move in with him to his house. I was very curious at the time. You know, I was 11 years old. I was so curious to figure out who he was. So I would every day, like, during dinner time, just ask him so many questions. I would ask him about his past. I would ask him about his friends. I would ask him about my grandmother. But in terms of details, I wanted to know if she was funny or you know, I. I wanted the positive stuff. And so I think it took him a while. You know, at the beginning, he wouldn't really tell me a lot of details or a lot of stories. And he slowly started opening up and telling me a little more about his past. I would always joke with him and tell him that I was going to write a book about his life because he has a very interesting life. And honestly, I think I would. You know, he. He does have such an interesting story. And through this connection that we develop, he begins to tell me more details. But it takes a couple of years, so I start getting closer and closer to him. I'm always very curious about his life. You know, his room to date is still full from, like, ceiling to ground with photos of my grandmother. So my curiosity keeps growing. And it isn't until years later, I'm 17 years old, that one night he decides to tell me the full story. That's where, you know, he begins to tell me the story. And at this point, I'm trying really hard to not interrupt him because he does not speak about this. And the story he tells me honestly blows my mind. On one hand, I fully believe him, and in the other, I'm obviously kind of, like, confused. The way my grandfather told me that this happened is that after he had been detained and the investigation for the murder had begun, but not really begun, like nothing much was being done, he was starting to feel very frustrated. And so he started looking for other ways to find information. Information. And when. When that was happening, he had a cousin of his reach out to him and say that if he was interested, he knew somebody who could talk to the Ouija board or communicate through the Ouija board. And my grandfather, even though I don't think he was a believer, I feel like he had no other option at the time. He felt very desperate. So he agreed to contact this person through his cousin. And what he told my mother is that after that happened, they made an appointment, and that the appointment was at a very late or early time, you could say at around 2am to meet in the outside of the city, outside of Mexico City, in a ranch, where they would meet this person and this person would bring out the Ouija board. And my grandfather was able to go there and ask the main questions that he wanted to ask the Ouija board, which was all concerning my grandmother's murder. He wanted to know who committed the murder and where this person lived. Because my grandfather wanted to basically take the matters into his own hands. He. He was obviously very upset at the time. So what he recalls is going. And the Ouija board being very rude. He always said that to me, that the Ouija board was very rude and said a couple of bad words to him. And that when he was able to ask the questions, the Ouija board just gave him a name and an address, spelled it out. And so my grandfather, after that, went back to the city and he found the house. And when. When he went to the house, he told me that he had gotten his gun because he was basically ready, you know, to avenge his wife's death. The way he describes this to me is that he's not thinking. Like, he says, I just. Like. It was like, just immediate. I got the address, got up and then just started doing everything, went. Got the gun, got into the car, and then started driving. When he gets to the address, he finds out that it's, like, in the same area where he used to live with my grandmother at the beginning, like, when they had just gotten married and moved in. So it was, you know, the poorest side of town. And exactly where that address was was a small house that was made out of, like, laminate. Like, a very poor house. So he could see through it. There wasn't really windows. The windows were made out of, like, curtains. And he says that he sees through the curtain the shooter. He recognizes the shooter from outside his house. So he's, you know, ready basically, to take a shot. But during this moment, he says that there's a lot of things going through his head. He. He says that he got very scared for the first time because he heard a voice that was clearly not his internal voice. My grandfather says that it started telling him, like. Like that he kept repeating, pendejo, pendejo, nosas, pendejo. And my grandfather, you know, what he told me is, like, I don't speak to myself like that. Like, I don't tell myself that there were more words, like homophobic words involved. The voice was telling him, Which means, you know, gay in a very demeaning way, to not be a pussy. Basically, you know, no sesjoto, which to my grandfather was a huge insult. You know, he's brought up in a very machista kind of Mexico. So he says that he got really freaked out by this voice, and it got so loud in his head that he couldn't do it. You know, he tells me, I wanted to. Like, I felt like I wanted to. But I see this man. I recognize him, and he's about to, like, sit down in his. Whatever dining table is, and he's got Kids, you know, he's got little kids. He's got little kids. He's got a wife. They're about to have dinner. And he says that, you know, he still, to date, doesn't understand, like, how he got the strength to not do it. You know, he. He says that there are nights where he, like, still dreams about it and he. He thinks about doing it. You know, he dreams that he does it, but that at the moment he. He was very scared and the voice in his head was getting louder, and he didn't like it, so he decided to jump back into his car and, you know, throw the address away. And that's the night that he decided that they had to leave. In the family, we did know that this cousin of his ended up in time committing suicide. And they believe that he was very into, like, you know, dark magic and things of that sort. So he was controversial in the family. You know, he. He explains it as. The way he presented that to me was for me to understand that there are things that hold a power that we probably don't understand. And he wanted me to stay as far away as a Ouija board from a Ouija board that I could. You know, he didn't want me to ever play it or approach it or take it as a funny game. You know, he. That night just told me, I believe, you know, he's never said this again, though, that this was the only time he told me that he believes that the devil is in that game. And he just says, like, and the devil, you know, it's not. You don't mess with the devil and not get hurt. And I honestly think that the only reason he told me the story was because he felt like I was a very curious young girl. You know, I was always asking questions. I always wanted to learn and to experience. And I think he didn't want that to happen to me. So I was, you know, when he ended the story, I was honestly presented, like, with a lot of confusion. I thought, wow, I can't believe my grandfather is opening up to me and telling me this part of the story that I had never heard of. But then also, he's so serious. You know, he's not kidding. Like, this really happened. And the fact that, you know, this board that he didn't believe in, out of the blue and quickly gives him the address of the person that he recognizes as the killer, to me, was like a movie. Like, it was bizarre. I was like, this can't be true. But my grandfather would have no reason, you know, to. To make this story up and, and to lie to me. So after this happens, I talked to my mom and you know, it's also a subject that I don't really approach with her. But I told her mom, I, I, you know, my grandfather just told me this story and I'm a little freaked out. And my mom was like supernatural about it. She said, yeah, that happened. And that's all she told me that night. She was like, yep, no more detail. Just that that's true. Yeah, that happened to your grandfather. Don't ever play that game. And that's it. Later on, you know, we, we've had different conversations about it, but the day of, I was just shocked to one, receive the story from my grandfather and then receive a confirmation, you know, from my mother.
- [53:36]
C
Hey, I am Claudia. I am from Mexico. My daughter is Ashley. Well, I'm here to tell you a little bit of my story of something that happened in our family. My dad told us that he once had contact with this board. He played with the board and asked a lot of questions and the board answered and he had answers. That's the only thing that he told us that he have answers for that. My dad is a bear. It's, it's. He always, I remember him like a very happy person. But when this situation goes in our family, well, my father just changed. It's not a, it's now a serious, it's not like he is a serious person now, but this success make a change in his life. So at that time when he told us about this, he was very concerned, I think, and very worried to tell us the thing that he did at that time that he knows that it was wrong. You know, my dad and I, we have a very, we are very close since I was a little girl. So I said, okay, okay, dad, don't worry, it's okay. Because he, at that time, he wants like, you know, that has wet eyes. And I said, don't worry about that. If you don't want to say more, don't say more. That's it. It's okay. And never ever we gonna talk about that again.
- [55:30]
A
Is that the last you heard about this?
- [55:35]
C
Yeah.
- [55:35]
A
Or did you ever find out more about what happened? Because, Ashley, you told me a lot more.
- [55:42]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think what happens is that my grandfather, as the years go by, he opens up a little bit more. He talks more about what happened. The older he gets, I, you know, I feel like he, he saw an opportunity to. When I was living with him in his house. We had never lived together. And we started getting really close, the three of us, my sisters and him. We used to go to the ranch with him in the mornings and things like that. And so we had a lot of time to talk. And I also think that since I'm not my mom, you know, it was like a different type of relationship where he could tell a little more. You know, I feel like the subject of my grandmother's passing is something that we all acknowledge but don't really talk about in the family. So when he decides to tell me this story, I was also a teenager, but, you know, I think the difference was that I wasn't his daughter and he was just telling it to somebody else. So he gave me a lot of more detail that at the time, I didn't. I thought my mom knew. I thought, you know, and my mom and I spoke about it afterwards, and we're like, yeah, yeah, that happened. But, like, we never went into detail of, like, all the things he told us.
- [57:12]
C
Mm.
- [57:14]
A
Did, Claudia, did you ever find out about what he did with the information, or did you find that out from Ashley?
- [57:21]
C
Well, first for Ashley and then for my dad. Some. Some. I don't know. Maybe that's why Ashley and I were. We were talking, maybe while my dad, with my daughters has a special. Special, like, feeling. And my dad told Ashley at that time a lot of things that I didn't know. That I think, because at that time, when we were young, my dad doesn't want to tell the complete story because, I don't know, maybe he thought our hearts were gonna be sad or. I don't know. But time passed, and my dad right now has 89 years old. And now he can talk about that now, but in another years. No, because this. This story of his life and of our life like a family. It's terrible. So we don't talk about. We don't like to talk about too much about this, especially my dad.
- [58:43]
A
Unrelated to all of this, I heard that some strange things happened later on.
- [58:48]
B
I don't know, mom, if you remember better than I do. I don't remember if it was my grandpa who told us that they had gone to the house, like, years later and that they were. Whoever lived there had to leave because they would hear, like, a woman cry and kids in the swimming pool.
- [59:10]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a big pool in the house. And the person who lives. Who bought the house, they just keep calling my dad and said something is weird in this house, because sometimes during the nighttime or daytime, we hear, like, people in the pool and you know what? We love to swim in that pool. My sister, my brothers, my mother loves to swim in that pool. So then they decided to close the pool. And they closed that pool and then start to hear, like, crying. Somebody's crying. Like a, a woman's crying. And I think it was my mom. So they decided then to sell the house for that. And they sell the. And they sold the house. Oh.
- [60:27]
A
Did any other strange things happen to you guys?
- [60:33]
C
No.
- [60:36]
B
No. I mean, there's a couple, you know, you know the story mom of, you know, that everybody believes that my grandmother wouldn't have liked my aunt's ex husband because every time they put the Day of the Dead altar and you know, her photo is the main photo in the altar every year. And every time he would pass by the altar, something would fall or the candles would like shut off or her. So everybody believed that she didn't like him and they ended up divorcing. So it makes sense.
- [61:11]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think.
- [61:13]
B
But there's, there's stories like that. It's not particularly spooky. It's, it's. Yeah, she's like a presence in the family. We, but, you know, we just didn't get to meet her.
- [61:37]
A
Okay, thank you so much to Ashley and Claudia for speaking to me and sharing this story. You know, typically Another World, I only feature first person accounts, but when I read the submission, it was pretty obvious that it was worth making an exception on this one. Thank you once again to Ashley and Claudia. I'm so glad we got to help preserve this incredible and very surreal piece of family history. This episode was called the Widower and you've been listening to Otherworld. Otherworld is executive produced and hosted by myself, Jack Wagner. Our producers are Theo Schaeffer, Theo Krantz, Haley Pearson and Nikki Cate Delgado. Our theme song is by Cobra Man. The soundtrack of this episode is by North Americans and Juice Jackal. Our artwork is by Cul de Sac Studios. Please show us your support by subscribing, leaving a five star review and telling your friends about the show. If you want to hear bonus episodes of Otherworld, you can become a patron@patreon.com otherworld. Our social media is otherworldpod. Thank you to the team at Odyssey. Leah Rhys, Dennis, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Eric Donnelly, Kate Rose, Colin Gaynor and Hilary Schuff. Follow and listen to Otherworld now for free on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts. And finally, if you or somebody you know has experienced something paranormal, supernatural, or unexplained you could send us your stories@storiesotherworldpod.com.
- [63:33]
B
What is that?
- [63:34]
A
Oh, yeah, it's a World cup holder.
- [63:37]
B
Like the soccer tournament.
- [63:38]
A
World cup holder for the world. Fits every car, holds every cup.
- [63:42]
B
It has a Carvana logo.
- [63:43]
A
Carvana made it. They buy and sell cars, so they made a car cup holder. So. Got any good cups lately?
- [63:51]
B
Used to. Just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them.
- [63:53]
A
The World Cup Holder brought to you by Carvana. Proud sponsors of the World cup holder, sign up today to win yours@cup-holder2026.com not authorized or endorsed by FIFA. Not a real product for parody and fair use purposes only.