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- [00:00]
Jack Wagner
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Mint lets you keep your phone, your number and your contacts. You just pop in the SIM card or activate your ESIM and you're all set, ready to go. They have no random fees and no surprise charges. I've used it, and honestly, it works just as well as my old cell phone provider. Except now I'm paying way less and I'm not cringing whenever that cell phone bill hits this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans@mintmobile.com otherworld that's mintmobile.com otherworld upfront payment of $45 for three months 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for the first three months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra C Mint Mobile for details welcome to Otherworld. I'm your host Jack Wagner. In this episode, I will be interviewing journalist and author Susannah Cahalan. She has written the books Brain on Fire, the Great Pretender, and most recently the Acid Queen, which is about Rosemary Leary, the wife of psychedelic pioneer Timothy Leary. Susanna's first book, Brain on My Month of Madness, is an autobiography and it details her battle with a rare form of encephalitis called anti NMDA receptor encephalitis. To put it very simply, in her early 20s, Susanna was going about her normal life and suddenly descended into extreme psychosis. She literally lost her mind for an entire month and spent most of that time hospitalized with a series of doctors giving her one false diagnosis after another, ranging from mono to schizophrenia, to some of them just saying that maybe she was partying too hard. Eventually one doctor figured out that this rare autoimmune disease was causing her brain to become inflamed. Not long after, she woke up in a hospital bed on the road to recovery with limited memory of the previous month. I thought this book was so fascinating and relevant to Otherworld. Throughout history, supernatural experiences have been dismissed as mental illness and the other way around. There are so many more parallel themes between the book and the show. For Susannah, this experience led to an interest in psychology and the human mind, which eventually led to her next book, the Great Pretender, and her newest book, the Acid the Psychedelic Life and Counterculture Rebellion of Rosemary Woodruff Leary. In this interview, I talked to Susannah about all of this. I know it seems like a lot, but I really think that all three of these books and her own experiences tie together with many parallel themes. I thought this conversation was so interesting. In fact, I spoke to Susannah for so long that we ended up recording two episodes. So there's going to be a bonus episode on Patreon that you could listen to after this if you find yourself wanting more. That's available@patreon.com Otherworld let's get this started. You're about to hear my interview with Susannah Cahalan and you're listening to Otherworld. Hello, is this Bobby? Yes, it is. At its core, the science you can't argue with. I'm worried about up in the Sky. It's almost frustrating that it's happening. I'm going to die. Its limbs were just, like, wrong.
- [05:42]
Susannah Cahalan
It's just. Just everybody moves back into the mind, even if it takes them a minute.
- [06:01]
Jack Wagner
All right, everybody, welcome to Otherworld. Joining me today, author Susanna Cahalan, author of the book Brain on Fire, My Month of Madness, and most recently, the Acid the Psychedelic Life and Counterculture Rebellion of Rosemary Woodruff Leary, both very long titles. I'm holding the books here right now. Welcome to the show, Susanna.
- [06:28]
Susannah Cahalan
Thank you for having me. I got to tell you that I'm a huge fan, but now I can tell you here that I really love your show, so it's really fun and exciting to be here.
- [06:36]
Jack Wagner
That's amazing. I know you told me you were kind of catching up on episodes before this.
- [06:41]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah. Shannon Taggart, who is on your show, who I'm a personal fan of, and she's a friend of mine, she got me into your show, like, a while ago.
- [06:51]
Jack Wagner
I'm a very big fan of Shannon Taggart.
- [06:52]
Susannah Cahalan
She's. I'm a huge fan of Shannon. She's changed my life, so I need.
- [06:58]
Jack Wagner
To get her back on here, too.
- [06:59]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, you do. Especially the work she's doing now. Definitely.
- [07:03]
Jack Wagner
So we have a lot to talk about. We chatted on the phone a little bit before this. I have a feeling this is going to be a really fun episode because your first book, Brain on Fire, came out in 2012. That is not the book you're here to discuss. This is. The new book is Acid Queen. But I feel like these books are sort of connected in a way, and I imagine they are to you.
- [07:24]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, definitely.
- [07:26]
Jack Wagner
Brain on Fire I want to discuss first. And it's about you essentially losing your mind.
- [07:33]
Susannah Cahalan
Absolutely. Not even essentially, like completely losing my mind.
- [07:36]
Jack Wagner
Completely losing your mind?
- [07:37]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes. Yes. Totally untethered. Absolutely.
- [07:41]
Jack Wagner
And it's a really interesting story. It's a very famous book. I'm sure many people have already read it before. It was also made into a movie. You're making a face, but you know, it was made into a movie.
- [07:54]
Susannah Cahalan
It was.
- [07:55]
Jack Wagner
I think the book was better.
- [07:57]
Susannah Cahalan
Thank you.
- [07:57]
Jack Wagner
Than the movie.
- [07:58]
Susannah Cahalan
Thank you for saying that.
- [07:59]
Jack Wagner
I appreciate it. I think most people agree. It's okay, though. Real quick, could you just give the audience a brief summary of Brain on Fire, if that's possible. I know it's a long story, but a brief summary of what this was and what happened to you.
- [08:15]
Susannah Cahalan
Sure. So this was 2009. I was 24 years old. I started to feel off. And it was first just kind of like a cold Flu like symptoms, and then very quickly ratcheted up to hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, seeing things that weren't there, very strange experiences. I had a series of seizures, which was followed by hospitalization. And I was admitted to a hospital where I spent the next month of my life, where doctors were kind of presenting various diagnoses. The prevailing diagnosis that they thought I had was schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. And over the course of that month, I was subjected to like a million dollars worth of testing. And ultimately.
- [09:05]
Jack Wagner
Yeah, so one test.
- [09:06]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah. Really? Yeah.
- [09:09]
Jack Wagner
In America.
- [09:09]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, my God. Disturbing. And, you know, luckily I was. Anyway, I could go on a tangent about that. But at the end of that month, I was diagnosed with a newly discovered form of encephalitis caused by our immune system called Anti NMDA Receptor Autoimmune Encephalitis. I was the 217th person in the world to be diagnosed with this. When I was released from the hospital, I could not read, I could not write. I could barely walk on my own. I did some neuropsych testing. I was severely impaired. The question was, how much would I recover of my cognitive abilities? And it took me, I would say, probably two years to return to my level of functioning that I am now, which is I'm fully better. And the treatment included just kind of very typical autoimmune kind of treatments, which is steroids and then something called IVIG treatment and plasmapheresis, which is basically like cleaning the blood of these bad antibodies, um, because the antibodies are kind of the bad guys in the illness. They attack the brain from the immune system and then replacing them with. With donor antibodies as well. So. So that, that's. That's the story in a nutshell.
- [10:23]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. Yes. And, you know, it's hard to summarize something like that because you said at the end of the month you got this diagnosis.
- [10:29]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [10:30]
Jack Wagner
It's not like you were just at home waiting, like you were in the hospital going through psychosis for a month. Like, this is a wild read, kind of a painful read at times because it's just so extreme what happened to you. And mind you, this is not a light mental health crisis. You were fully in the throes of it to the point where, like, Susannah was kind of gone.
- [10:51]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was not present for. It's strange, you know, I mean, I think we've all had experiences of losing time. Like, I think that's kind of universal unless you have, like, a perfect memory. But. And I had. Had, like, I forget Wide swaths of my childhood. I don't know if you have that same thing. I have a lot of blank spaces. But this was, you know, experience of my life that was extreme. That I have some flickering, very unreliable memories about. Most of them are hallucinations of things that I remember. But a good. Good bulk of it I don't remember. It's completely lost to me, which is a strange.
- [11:29]
Jack Wagner
It's a strange feeling that is so wild. Well, I have a million questions about that. Like I said, I find that so fascinating. One, because losing my mind is one of my greatest fears, but also because the stories we tell on this show, one of the most common and frustrating reactions that people have to hearing that type of thing is they say, like, oh, these are just crazy people. Maybe they're just experiencing psychosis. And. And don't get me wrong, there are certainly a lot of those cases out there, but we go to pretty great lengths to avoid that. I think it's ignorant to write off experiences as something like that. Just saying, oh, this person's crazy.
- [12:11]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [12:11]
Jack Wagner
Especially when I read your book and I am seeing how intense of an experience it is going through something like that. And, you know, this doesn't just happen to somebody for five minutes while they're on their way to work one time, and then they move on, you know?
- [12:24]
Susannah Cahalan
No, it stays with you. And I would even argue, like, even, like, within craziness, like within psychosis, there are sometimes, like, real. I don't know how to even put it in, like, a way that would make. Would resonate. But, like, there are real serious things that happen in psychosis that are. That sometimes can't just be waved away for someone being crazy. Does that make sense? I don't know. I feel. Yeah.
- [12:48]
Jack Wagner
Yeah, I'm sure It's hard to separate.
- [12:49]
Susannah Cahalan
It is.
- [12:52]
Jack Wagner
So walk me through where this all started for you.
- [12:53]
Susannah Cahalan
Sure. So I was 24. This was 2009 in New York. I was working for the New York Post at a tabloid newspaper. And at that point, my actual life was so strange because I was investigating mysterious smells in South Street Seaport and going undercover as a stripper and stalking celebrities. They would send me to go whenever someone. A big crime happened. And there used to be a lot of, like, jailhouse interviews. You don't see that as much anymore. But I would be sent because I got this, like, major jailhouse scoop when I was still in college for the New York Post. So I got this scoop just, like, haphazardly. Like, I didn't think I'd get in. And then he talked to me for some reason. And so I became the person that the post would send when any big criminal went to prison. I think partially or jail partially. Because I was so young, I looked, you know, it kind of threw people off. But so, yeah, so my life was really strange. Like I was like at Rikers island every other week trying to interview people. So it was a bizarre time. And so I think like, I really think like looking back that like it took me longer to figure out that some of the weird stuff happening to me, where it was actually coming in was like internal because my whole, my life was so bizarre and high stress, like deadlines all the time. I still have, I still have nightmares about the deadlines there and like having to produce, you know, under high stress conditions. You know, the context around that time was so intense that it took me longer. But you know, initially I would say it kind of started with like a flu. Like it felt like a flu. I was really tired, I was really depressed. I had a headache. I was just like almost like moving through molasses. And then I also had one sided numbness. Physical, very, you know, obviously concerning enough to go to a doctor. And I got like my first in a series of misdiagnoses. That first diagnosis was mono. They thought I had mono. That's kind of how I appeared. But I ultimately, I didn't have mono. But that was the first kind of rule out diagnosis there. But yeah, it changed very quickly after that.
- [15:07]
Jack Wagner
Yeah, I mean it got really bad with you. There's, you know, in the middle of this book you're like basically strapped to a hospital bed and like Susanna is essentially gone. Right. Like, I don't know if that's a good way to explain it.
- [15:18]
Susannah Cahalan
No, it is. It's a perfect way though.
- [15:20]
Jack Wagner
The person I'm talking to now is like no longer in the room, which is fascinating to me. Like. Like you're completely out of control.
- [15:28]
Susannah Cahalan
Absolutely. And I don't have many memories from that time. Like the only memories I have and it's because like the illness that I had, which will talk about it actually affects the memory centers of the brain. So I didn't create a lot of memories. Though I do remember things of like high emotional content because they're like encoded in the brain in a deeper way. So I remember a lot of my hallucinations. I was extremely psychotic. I had a lot of hallucinations, extreme paranoid delusions. I saw myself on the tv. I had all, all these narratives about my father killing my stepmother and he was gonna kill me. And then I'm in. When I was in the hospital after being fluridly psychotic, I saw myself on the television. Like, I saw myself. Like I saw my dad was arrested. Like this whole delusion had like followed me into the hospital. But like the, the part that I thought was very other world, I experienced a few things. I mean, a few things you can't really explain. I mean like, you know, if you do go in the deep dive, you're like, oh, temporal lobe epilepsy. Because I had seizures can cause all sorts of like distorted perceptions and. But I did have an out of body experience when.
- [16:34]
Jack Wagner
Really?
- [16:34]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes, when I had my first seizure. So I had my first seizure after a good solid week of really getting psychotic. I stopped eating, I stopped sleeping. I was starting to hear voices. I didn't see things as much. So I did have this experience. I was interviewing. Do you know John Walsh from America's Most Wanted? Do you remember him?
- [16:57]
Jack Wagner
Of course, yeah. Yeah, I remember this in the book too.
- [17:00]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, I interviewed him about. About drug smuggling, submarines. I don't know.
- [17:06]
Jack Wagner
Yeah.
- [17:07]
Susannah Cahalan
And I was real out there. I mean, this is like the last interview that I conducted for like 8 months. And his poor PR person like dragged him. He was like, went to, I think, you know, FOX News was in the same building and he was interviewed there. And then he still had his like makeup on from the Fox News interview. So he kind of looked like strange to me. And I was, Everything was strange to me at that point. And I was like walking in the hallway and my bumping into things and like the. I felt like the ceiling was like going sky high. Like the ceiling had suddenly like went up like 50ft. And then the walls were kind of like breathing around me. And I just like stumbled into this interview and like just started like laughing hysterically. I basically was kicked out of that, that final interview. And I don't think it ever aired. But you know, my behavior was just starting to get more and more erratic that night after that interview, that horrible interview, I went home and I was like, I had this feeling like, you know, when you're like anticipating something and you can't sit down, like you're just so filled. I was filled with that kind of like really kind of toxic anticipation. Excitement mixed with like dread mixed with like just an inability to calm myself. And so I was just pacing around, pacing around. And I remember my boyfriend, who is now my husband, tried to cook me dinner, tried to calm me down. He had no idea what was going on. And the Last thing I remember was watching tv, like, watching some travel show with Gwyneth Paltrow in it or something. And I had a seizure, and he witnessed it. So I don't remember any of this part. Like, he witnessed the seizure. It was a grand mal seizure. He put me on my side. I was fully moving my body in strange ways. Kind of woke up bolt upright, like, staring ahead, but, like, not unseeing, but I remember being on a gurney, like being on a hospital, you know, like being wheeled out, wheeled into the ambulance. And, like. But, like, watching it. And I was in Hell's Kitchen at the time. This is where I lived. And I remember just, like, looking at me and this person putting me into an ambulance, but I wasn't actually in my body. I was outside of my body.
- [19:19]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. You were watching it in third person.
- [19:21]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes, exactly. I just couldn't explain it. I can't explain that one away.
- [19:27]
Jack Wagner
And it. And you really got put in the ambulance.
- [19:29]
Susannah Cahalan
I did.
- [19:29]
Jack Wagner
Okay, so you were seeing something that was actually happening.
- [19:31]
Susannah Cahalan
I was seeing something that was actually happening.
- [19:33]
Jack Wagner
I mean, I have so many questions about Brain on Fire and the experience of this. Maybe we could do, like, a Patreon bonus thing after this if we have the time. Fear up for it, because I would love to really dive in. But I. I think it's so fascinating. Something that we kind of COVID loosely on Otherworld is consciousness. I guess we explore it in a way, either directly or indirectly with these episodes. Mainly for me, in the sense that, like, there's the mind, there's the brain, and then there's the possibility of, like, this other third thing that might exist outside of the body and begin and end outside of our lifetimes, maybe. Right.
- [20:13]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [20:14]
Jack Wagner
I think the stories that come up on the show illustrate the borders of these. Does that make sense to you? I mean, and at least forces you to think about it and with your experience and probably some of the topics we'll be talking about in your next book. It helps people consider and explore the borders of where their brain ends and something else begins. And like, for you, memory, hallucination, literal recreations in movie form.
- [20:43]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [20:44]
Jack Wagner
All of these things must be so mixed up for you. In a very confusing way.
- [20:47]
Susannah Cahalan
It's very confusing. And it's, you know, in some ways, writing about. In most ways, writing about it, like, gave me, I would say, an artificial sense of control, but still a sense of control about the past because I had imposed a narrative about this chaos. You know, I kind of was able to change the past in a way. By writing about it. And especially in, you know, what this illness caused in my brain was like this question of, like, what are you? You know, are you like your memories? Like, are you. More than that, you know, the brain can be tampered with it. In my case, like, my immune system targeted the NMDA specific receptors in my brain that are responsible for learning memory and behavior. I mean, like, really diffusely all over the brain, but like concentrated in those areas. And like, when you mess with those, like, you mess with those a little and you get a new personality kind of, but like some of your old personality there too, you know, like, where does that end and begin and then you like. And Brain on Fire was kind of my most concrete in a way. Like, even though it was a story of all these mysteries and this like, idea of like, what is the self? It felt also very concrete because it was like, oh, look, you, you tinker with these little neurons and receptors and you get changes. Like, it felt very one to one in terms of like, cause and effect. So in some ways, like, I, even though this was the most, the wildest time of my life, it was like the most concrete in terms like, almost like, you know, concrete in terms of like the science and concrete in terms of like, oh, I felt like, oh, neuroscience explains everything, which I don't feel that way anymore, but that's how I felt.
- [22:33]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. I mean, I think for most people who haven't experienced something like that, you assume your brain is working, everything is going smoothly. You have no framework of, of knowing what your brain and your mind is doing and like, who you are in comparison to your brain.
- [22:52]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [22:52]
Jack Wagner
And you wouldn't really know that until in your case, like, something breaks, Right. Then you, then you get to see the separation. So I'm fascinated by that. What kind of internal dialogue you were having if you were questioning things, if you were, if you knew you were insane. Right. Like, it seems like you didn't in the beginning.
- [23:13]
Susannah Cahalan
I feel like when it was just like some of the receptors were being tickled, like, I definitely knew I was insane. Like, I would say things like, I was not my best advocate. I would say to the doctors, like, I have multiple personality disorder, you know, and. But, you know, it was a combination. It's so strange, it's so hard to really pinpoint down. But it was a combination of feeling like something was seriously wrong with me and wanting to figure it out. So clearly I had some self awareness. But then when I was in the midst of some of my episodes, like, you know, seeing things that weren't there, or seeing my dad, you know, hearing my dad. A lot of it was auditory, though. There were a lot of visuals as well. Like hearing my dad hurt my stepmom, which wasn't. Didn't happen. But I. But I heard it. Like, that was as real to me as this conversation. I mean, I. There was no doubt in my mind that that was happening.
- [24:03]
Jack Wagner
Huh. That's fascinating.
- [24:05]
Susannah Cahalan
It's so bizarre. It really is.
- [24:08]
Jack Wagner
Did you learn anything about losing your mind and what that is actually like, that you think people don't understand or there's, like, misconceptions of.
- [24:18]
Susannah Cahalan
I think. Well, I mean, like, societal preconceptions. Misconceptions are like that. It's all the time, you know that, like, when you're crazy, it's all the time, you know, like you're. You're. When you're. When you've Have a serious mental illness or you're dealing with psychosis, like, you're unreliable all the time. You. Everything you say is tainted by that. But in my experience with autoimmune encephalitis, which is obviously not schizophrenia, but shares a lot of the same experiences, is that it actually is. You're in and out of psychosis. You're in and out of reliability. You know, sometimes you do have, like, a. The center comes back, and then it goes away again, and the center comes. That's what's so disconcerting about it, because sometimes you feel like you're back on solid ground or, like, if things feel like there's, like, a feeling in the way, like your cognition changes when. When you start to get psychotic, which, like, it's hard to explain, really, but, like, the texture around you, like, becomes more porous or open or, like. I thought that while doing, like, research about psychedelics, I found this one description of psychedelics. And it's like. I think it's Aldous Huxley that described it. Like, that's a reducing valve. Like, your consciousness is like a reducing valve. So, like, you're taking in stimuli from all around you, and if you took it all in, everything that was coming at you, like, you would explode, essentially. Like, you can't take in everything around you. So you're like, your brain is, like, you know, constantly creating order and reducing what it's actually allowing you to perceive. Right? And I think when psycho. My theory of psychosis, in terms of what happened to me is that it opens it up so that all of a sudden you're taking in stimuli that your brain has learned over the years. To ignore. And so in some ways, like, your brain is taking in more. Like, your brain is more open. But, you know, does that make sense?
- [26:14]
Jack Wagner
Like, yeah, it does.
- [26:15]
Susannah Cahalan
It's like you're like, I do really feel like, you know, if your reality, your perception of reality is shaped by your previous experiences, what you've decided is important. Like, when I go outside in the woods, I don't hear or smell or perceive anything because I'm not used to, like, hunting or, you know, tracking animals. But, like, people who've been raised that way see the world an entirely different way. That's why I think, like, animal cognition is so interesting. And, like, you know, so I think there is something to psychosis, which, like, I think maybe opens you up too wide.
- [26:49]
Jack Wagner
And it seems that when you were going through it, like, the. The wildest, most extreme parts, you didn't realize that you were not acting normal or not experiencing reality as others were experiencing it. Right. Like, that's.
- [27:06]
Susannah Cahalan
I don't know. Like, I did have a sense of specialness. Like, at one point, I believed that I could age people with my mind. So, yes, I would stare at you and you get younger, and then I'd look away and you get older. And I knew that, like, no one else had. Like, I was special, you know, Like, I was.
- [27:22]
Jack Wagner
But this was, like, a mundane fact to you at the time.
- [27:25]
Susannah Cahalan
This was like a. It was like.
- [27:26]
Jack Wagner
Like, oh, yeah, I could do that.
- [27:28]
Susannah Cahalan
It was empowering. Like, I felt, like, super powerful. Like, I was, like. It was like, wow, look at. I'm. I'm. I'm God. Like, I am. You know, like, grandiosity. That happens sometimes in psychosis, but. Yeah, but I wasn't like, wow, I think I can age people in my mind. I'm very sick. Something's going on here. Like, no, I believed it completely. Yeah. I was scared. I was angry. I was extreme. Like, and so I did feel things. Like, when I was aging people with people, people with my mind, I was, like, in awe of it. Like, I kept, like, testing it. Like, I can do it.
- [27:58]
Jack Wagner
Wait, so you would. Yeah, you would age people? And would it happen before your eyes?
- [28:02]
Susannah Cahalan
It happened before my eyes. I remember my doctor, Dr. Gazzola, one of my doctors in the hospital, she. I. She was, you know, she was, like, doing a test on me, like, a neurological test on me. And I was just, like, every time I looked at her, she'd become an old lady, and then I'd, like, look away, and she'd get really, really wrong. And then I look at her. Again. And she'd get old again. So I could like somehow control the passing of time. And it was like. I mean, it was like super cool in a way. I was like, whoa, this is crazy. But also like, filled me with this sense of like, I'm incredible, like I'm amazing.
- [28:38]
Jack Wagner
Okay. I could go on and on asking you very silly questions about this experience. And I will do that. Let's do that in a bonus thing. We'll figure it out. We need to talk about your new book. This is about Rosemary Leary. This is kind of unusual because we've not discussed Timothy Leary on the show, but this is the wife of Timothy Leary. I'm gonna let you explain Timothy Leary to us in a little bit. But this is a book about his wife. We're gonna discuss her first. And you know, eventually I'll have to cover Timothy Leary on Otherworld thoroughly.
- [29:10]
Susannah Cahalan
It's a. I would love for you to do that.
- [29:12]
Jack Wagner
If you do that, it'll be a rabbit hole.
- [29:14]
Susannah Cahalan
If you do, like, let's talk. Cause I have done tons of stuff.
- [29:18]
Jack Wagner
Briefly, tell me who Timothy Leary was and like, what made you decide to write this book in the first place.
- [29:23]
Susannah Cahalan
Sure. So Timothy Leary, just in short, was kind of like, I would say he's like the face of the so called, like first wave psychedelic movement in America. And he was an ex Harvard psychologist who was started to study psilocybin first initially, and its effect on mystical experiences, on recidivism in the prison system and on creativity. And he was eventually ousted from Harvard for probably for a lot of those studies, but also because he didn't show up to class a lot and he was doing some like, less than ethical things in Cambridge. But he ended up leaving Harvard and really entering like the media sphere, like the public space. And he was, he coined the term, which I'm sure many listeners know, which is like, turn on, tune in, drop out. And even though he was a generation older than the baby boomers who would like really take that slogan and live it, he was the face of it. And he was just like everywhere. I mean, he was like one of the biggest names of the 60s and a huge, you know, proselytizer of the use of psychedelics. But also eventually one of the reasons why it was ultimately like thoroughly demonized by those in charge. So he wears two faces in some way. In some respects.
- [30:39]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. A lot of the men we discuss on this show in terms of history have. Have that duality. Right, like the good and the bad tricksters. Exactly. But you decided to Write this book on his wife.
- [30:51]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes, yes.
- [30:53]
Jack Wagner
A lot of women in the counterculture and like, the paranormal, supernatural history, however you want to call it, there are a lot of women behind their famous husbands or partners that kind of go uncredited. Right. And especially in the people we've covered on the show so far, Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley, like, totally.
- [31:13]
Susannah Cahalan
They're.
- [31:14]
Jack Wagner
There's a woman. Multiple women behind them that were doing a lot of the work, putting a lot of the ideas out there that their husband's sort of getting the glory for. I imagine that's part of the reason you decide to write this book.
- [31:27]
Susannah Cahalan
Absolutely. So tying this together with Brain on Fire is. And thank you for saying that you see the connection, because it is kind of subtle, but I think is, to me clear, is that, you know, I'm interested in altered states and I'm interested in, like, how the brain, mind, soul, you know, that whole connection. And I'm also interested in, like, how our. How we perceive reality. How what? Like, how consensus reality. What. What is consensus reality? How our own perceptions can totally alter the way we see the world. So obviously that came from Brain on Fire. And, like, all of my work, like, my second book, was about the history of psychiatric diagnosis through the lens of this, like, wild study where people went undercover.
- [32:11]
Jack Wagner
I want to talk about that, too. Keep going.
- [32:14]
Susannah Cahalan
And in that, I really found, like, the limitations of science and research and found that there's so much art other or the unexplainable. Things like the placebo effect are fascinating. And so that was all in the ether. And obviously, if you were paying attention at all, you're noticing that there's been a kind of psychedelic revolution happening. The mainstream is really accepting of psychedelics, even though they're still illegal and still a Schedule 1 drug. And so I saw this happening, and I had written about psychedelics in both of the books in, like, subtle ways. So in Brain on Fire, I wrote about ketamine because ketamine also affects the NMDA receptor. LSD affects it indirectly, but ketamine affects it directly. Directly on the NMDA receptor. So I wrote about ketamine and, like, the rubber hand delusion. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:09]
Jack Wagner
That's where, like, they would stab, like, a fake hand.
- [33:14]
Susannah Cahalan
They put a feather. I think they were nicer about it. I think they'd, like, you know, tickle it with a feather. I think I have seen the stabbing one somewhere, too. I've heard of that too. But I think, like, the nice. The nice Researchers are tickling you with a feather and you laugh. When you're amphetamine, you believe at that hand, you're more likely to believe that that hand is yours. There's like a disembodiment. So I wrote about that. And then my second book, the Great Pretender, I wrote about Humphrey Osmond, who came up with the term psychedelic with Aldous Huxley, like in. They were in conversation with each other and came with this. This word as a way to describe these substances. And he would actually give LSD to his architects when they were designing psychiatric hospitals. Because at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, isn't it? You can't make this stuff up. This stuff in like science history is so great. Like, it's like. It's like one of the reasons. One of the million reasons why I love talking to Shannon, because she has all, like, she has a lot of this. The science history too, but also the paranormal and where they overlap. But we have like two hour walks where we just go wild. I mean, she's. Anyway, but his, you know, at that time, when Humphrey Osman was giving this to his architect, like LSD was seen as a psychotomimetic, like something that was mimicking psychosis. Psychedelics were used to understand madness. That's what they were originally meant for. And so psychiatrists would take it themselves to understand the experience of their patients. Eventually they noticed, oh, there's like a therapeutic, you know, improvement that happens where when we give these.
- [34:42]
Jack Wagner
They started liking it.
- [34:43]
Susannah Cahalan
They like doing it. Yeah, exactly.
- [34:46]
Jack Wagner
Oh, I need to. I need to get into the headspace of my patient again this weekend.
- [34:52]
Susannah Cahalan
Maybe this is a good charm. So, yeah, yeah, me and the.
- [34:54]
Jack Wagner
Me and the boys are gonna leave the wives at home, right? Just do some research by the beach, you know.
- [34:59]
Susannah Cahalan
But this. That was all happening anyway. What about that? In. In the Great Pretender. So I was interested in that. And so I started to. I live somewhat near the New York Public Library. So the New York Public Library has the Timothy Leary archives. So I started going through his archives, which are like 400 banker's boxes worth of material.
- [35:20]
Jack Wagner
Wow.
- [35:20]
Susannah Cahalan
It's like. It's a huge collection. Because he was like self mythologizing, you know, he was like. He was saving all. Everything. And Rosemary, actually, his wife just talk about. She helped save, preserve that. I mean, that wouldn't exist without her. But anyway, so I became aware of also another collection, a much smaller collection called the Rosemary Woodruff Leary Collection. And that was only like 25 boxes. And I had never heard of her before, so I started going through her boxes and, like, found this fascinating woman. She was with Leary from 1965 to, let's say, around 1972. It's only seven years, but it's like, during. It's like the height of his notoriety.
- [36:02]
Jack Wagner
It's a long seven years long.
- [36:04]
Susannah Cahalan
I mean, this is like that decade. This is lifetimes in seven years. Right. And, you know, she was the one who was. When his media Persona took off. She was designing his clothes, she was helping editing his speeches. She was, like, really, like, helping him create a Persona. And she ended up helping him escape from prison, I mean, being like. She called herself the computer. She was the one who connected him to all these political radicals like the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers. I mean, it's just like the most cinematic life. And she didn't even have a Wikipedia page. And I thought, this is incredible. Like, this is like, I want to right this wrong. Like, this is a. Like, she. People should know about her. That's, like, where it, like, initially started. And then I had all these synchronicity things happen that.
- [36:48]
Jack Wagner
Well, let's talk about that. We were talking about this on the phone. I thought that was really interesting.
- [36:51]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah. Do you or do you genuinely.
- [36:53]
Jack Wagner
No, I do, I do, I do. I mean, I was.
- [36:55]
Susannah Cahalan
I'm like, do I sound. Listen, if anywhere I'm gonna get people to understand what I'm saying, it'll be here. But so basically, I'm in her files. And when you're in an archive like that, it's really personal. I mean, you're touching. Like, sometimes you have to use gloves when you're like. When you're, like, dealing with photos, but otherwise you're like. With your fingertips, you're touching her work, her handwriting. You're, like, looking at the coffee stain on her tax return from, you know, 1992. And, you know, you're looking at a life. Like you're really going through someone's existence. And I was feeling very connected to her. And I went shopping at the same time. I went shopping at a boutique in Brooklyn called Bird. It's not there anymore. And I found this, like, amazing dress. I had recently had twins, so I was like, super postpartum, very fleshy, like, not, like, wearing this dress anywhere. Great. But I had it had. It had poppies, black poppies all over the dress. And I wanted it, but it was too expensive. And I googled it and it was just wild. The dress was made by this Swedish brand, Rota Beer. It was this, like, pre spring 2020 collection. And it was inspired by the psychedelic. What did they call it? Psychedelic pioneer Rosemary Woodruff Leary. And so that. I thought that was. So. I mean, what are the chances of that happening? And things like that kept happening. Like, I was around that same time, and so I was thinking, should I take this on? Should I do this? I was walking down the street and I found a photo of an owl just, like, pristine on the ground. Like, just with mushrooms coming out of its head. Like, there was something written inside. It was like a card. Like a thank you card. Like a kind of cute thank you card you'd send to someone. I would later find that, like, Rosemary really identified with owls. And she had constant dreams about owls. And in one of them, they were, like, clawing out. Of clawing out her eyes, you know, like, she had real owls were, like, really important to her, and they're in this path why I'm thinking about her, it's like, there an owl is with mushrooms coming out of its head.
- [39:05]
Jack Wagner
No, I know exactly what you're talking about. I mean, you told me this before, and you've. You. You were cautious because, you know, you were like, does this sound crazy? Or whatever? And it is kind of embarrassing sometimes to talk about that, but I do think, like, creativity. And when you're starting something new, there is this, like, mania that happens in a good way. In a good way. And, like, you do kind of get signs along the way. Like, I do think, like, synchronicities happen when you're headed down the right path.
- [39:31]
Susannah Cahalan
I like to believe that.
- [39:32]
Jack Wagner
Or it could feel like that. It can't feel like that. The problem is, I mean.
- [39:36]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [39:36]
Jack Wagner
Yeah, go ahead. What were you gonna say?
- [39:39]
Susannah Cahalan
It's like, you know the line. That line. Like, you kind of go mad a little bit when you're in the beginning stages of, like, a project or when you're really immersed in a project. And, like, sometimes part of psychosis is, like, seeing the connections. And, like, is that psychotic? Are you tapping into something? Are you tapping into, you know, that idea of opening your brain up too wide? Are you opening it up too wide and then you really can't see the forest for the trees? Are you seeing things that are innate truths, but you're just, like, too out there to really, like. I don't know. But I will say, like, when I. I do have that. I've had the experience a lot with this book, and she was really into that. Like, she was all about synchronicities. She took the I Ching all the time. She had the tarot. Like, she was really, like. Her life was animated and, like, really directed by her relationship with synchronicity. And so I, like, allowed myself to even open myself up further to that than I had ever previously allowed myself to do that. I felt like with the Brain on Fire experience, I would never really allow myself to go that far because I was, like, a. Worried about credibility.
- [40:48]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. And, you know, these signs, I think, like, when it comes to synchronicities, it's nice to have those little signs as, like, a little wink from the universe. As, like, okay, this is great. Like, I'm gonna continue this creative project.
- [40:59]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [41:00]
Jack Wagner
Versus if the synchronicities you are seeing are pointing you to break into Jennifer Aniston's house with a gun in your underwear to tell her the truth of the universe. Like, maybe. Maybe that's not a sign, right? Maybe.
- [41:14]
Susannah Cahalan
But I just said you can't discern. It's so hard. But, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- [41:18]
Jack Wagner
You.
- [41:19]
Susannah Cahalan
I know the problem, too, with the other side of it is, like, just in terms of, like, going through signs, which I still do, and I'm like a big, big person in this now, in terms of following signs, is that sometimes you get signs you don't like. You get negative signs, like, this is not going to work out. This is not going to work out, you know, or like, you know, I throw the I Ching a bit and like, there have been a few times, like, where I've thrown it, and, like, it's been like, no, don't do that. Essentially, I'm like, maybe this isn't. Maybe, just maybe I need to change the, like, you know, orientation of this. They put it under a moon. Like, I try everything to make it, but every time I've, like, gone against, I. It's. It's been true. And I think it's, like, when it starts getting in the way of living your life, like, getting in your way. You have to be careful.
- [42:08]
Jack Wagner
But yes, yes. And it's probably complicated given what you've gone through.
- [42:13]
Susannah Cahalan
Exactly. Like, you just don't want to, like, listen to, you know, you're like, careful.
- [42:16]
Jack Wagner
Susanna.
- [42:17]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [42:17]
Jack Wagner
Well, yes, we don't want to go. We don't want to go back to the scary hospital.
- [42:21]
Susannah Cahalan
Listen, for real. I mean, like, there was, like, there were times immediately, like, I'd say, like, in the immediate aftermath, like, none of these topics would be something that I would be interested in going down at all. And if I had any, like, you know, we all have, like, things we see out of the corner of our eyes. Like, I've Had a lot. I've had some weird experiences in the past couple years, but, like, indirect weird experiences or like, all of a sudden the light flickers in a weird way and you get like, those, like, just like, your perceptions off or like you see a like, flash of a figure or something. I would be really worried, like, after my experience, like, that would throw me, you know, I don't have that anymore. I feel like my feet are on.
- [42:58]
Jack Wagner
The ground in the opposite way. Most people are.
- [43:00]
Susannah Cahalan
Right. I have my feet on the ground now, so I'm like, more. I hope I feel like I do, but, like, I have more. Like, I'm more able to, like, stick a toe out in this world and like, question some things and read some, you know, like, I would, you know, feel comfortable, like, reading things, like, listening to this podcast or, you know, I do. I am sometimes careful about, like, my state of mind and what I take in. Sometimes when, like, I'm feeling, like, super raw, I might not take in, like, some of the scarier ghost stories that you have here, but when I'm feeling solid, I can, you know. Does that make sense? Yeah.
- [43:43]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. And it must be. I mean, I know that it's spooky, kind of like stepping into somebody's footsteps while you learn about them. I interviewed Christian Hansen along with his directorial partner Zach, who made the show the Octopus Murders. And he was. Was researching Danny Casalero, this journalist who mysteriously died during an investigation of this, like, all consuming conspiracy. But Christian, while working on this, realized that he was getting bizarre reactions when he would approach people who knew Danny back in the day. And eventually somebody was like, you realize you look exactly like him. And they, like, looked and they. It was like a spitting image to the point where he eventually played Danny in the reenactment footage.
- [44:30]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, my God.
- [44:31]
Jack Wagner
But it became very surreal where, like, I think he eventually interviewed a relative of Danny, and the person was having a complicated time with it because it was like, this is weird. It's like you're. I'm talking to a dead man, you know, like, you look so much like him. It was a fascinating thing hearing that from him of, like, stepping into this guy's shoes and how strange that is.
- [44:51]
Susannah Cahalan
Well, it's so fascinating to feel like.
- [44:53]
Jack Wagner
Them a little bit.
- [44:54]
Susannah Cahalan
Why did this story find that? Like, why did that person find that story? Did he happen to look like. I mean, there's something so interesting about, like, the attract. Like, when we're attracted to a story. I think when you take something on, like, it does feel like sometimes when it's really good, like, it feels like you didn't pick it. I don't know. Like, it's like, yeah.
- [45:13]
Jack Wagner
Like, was he attracted to it or were the other way around? I don't know.
- [45:17]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah.
- [45:18]
Jack Wagner
And same with you. And you had an interesting experience of your own.
- [45:22]
Susannah Cahalan
I did.
- [45:24]
Jack Wagner
While working on this book, right? I did.
- [45:25]
Susannah Cahalan
I did. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I never really, like, talked about. I mean, I talked about it because I talk about things when things happen to me a lot and I talk to friends a lot about it, but I have never, like, talked publicly about it because, like, it's so bizarre. But I was writing the book. I was deep in the book. Like really deep in the book, you know, deep in her. And I had, I had, you know, I was again, like, I was really embodying. Like, I was really using her tarot. I was using the I Ching. I was doing her yoga. I was like doing her breath work. Like, I really, you know, I went. I dove in to going all in. I was going all in. And I had. I had a baby. I was pregnant for a good portion of the. Of the book, which also felt like very like nine months of the book, maybe 10 months. It felt bittersweet too, because, you know, she had struggled with having children and that was like a big part of her. Part of her biography is this desire to have children that she didn't. She ended up like, you know, expressing that maternal energy somewhere else. But I have my baby. He's like, I would say three months old, and I was breastfeeding him in the middle of the night. And I look up and in the mirror I see a figure and the figure is like small. It's like a small, like a child size figure, I would say. And it's. But it's all black. Like, it's like really thin limbs, like. And no eyes. I couldn't see any eyes, but like a black figure. Small, childlike size.
- [47:10]
Jack Wagner
Like a shadow figure?
- [47:11]
Susannah Cahalan
Sure. Yeah. I felt more like. It didn't feel like a shadow. Like, it felt like it was. I don't know how to explain why I wouldn't feel like it was a shadow, but it didn't feel like a shadow.
- [47:20]
Jack Wagner
What did it look like? Like, the black.
- [47:23]
Susannah Cahalan
Like almost like round. I don't even really. I mean, very thin limbed. I would say like thin, but child. Like. Like, I don't think it was a child, but it. But my first reaction was that it would like to think that it's a child size. It was dark, but that's all I can say really. I saw it in the mirror in a flash and I turned to look and it wasn't there. And then I looked back in the mirror and it wasn't there. But I was really scared cause it was in my baby's room. I was really scared. And I remember just in my mind like I didn't say anything out loud but in my mind I was just like go away. Like go away. That's all I could think of to say. Which is like I was just really scared and freaked out. And the next day I like told a few friends of mine who like have more knowledge in this area and like they told me to sage the room and I saged the room and I like opened the windows and opened the shades cause like you know, I was keeping this room very dark because I was trying to get him to sleep. And I bound the mirror too and moved it out of the room because I really kind of felt it was the mirror. Like it's an old antique kind of antique mirror. Like I felt like it maybe wasn't the room but was the mirror. I don't know. I did anything that I could possibly do and like a friend gave me this like protection thing. I think it like amplified it for me because it was like in where my baby was sleeping, you know.
- [48:42]
Jack Wagner
Yeah.
- [48:43]
Susannah Cahalan
And like for a while afterwards I was like really scared of the room. Like I felt really scared and I felt that while I was really scared the room was like scarier. I don't know, like I felt like it was like feedback looping.
- [48:59]
Jack Wagner
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well also let me ask you this. I'm curious, like as a person who's experienced like extreme psychosis and like full on hallucinations, extended ones, like what was the experience of witnessing this versus witnessing those?
- [49:17]
Susannah Cahalan
I mean I guess because.
- [49:18]
Jack Wagner
And like your reaction to it.
- [49:19]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes. Well, I think because it was so quick, you know, it was like my, my other experiences seemed to be like more involved and prolonged and this was just like I saw it. Like I mean I saw it and then I looked away and it wasn't there, you know, and then. And I wasn't like there was no like feeling afterwards that was like that felt anything but fear, you know. Like it felt like I didn't feel like I was in a state that was concerning to me or you know, or I had, I don't, I don't know. I had no other issues or you know, I don't know how to explain it. I mean I just felt different.
- [49:56]
Jack Wagner
And this was While you were working on the book about Rosemary?
- [49:59]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes, yes. This was while I was writing.
- [50:08]
Jack Wagner
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Susannah Cahalan
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- [55:02]
Jack Wagner
What else did you find most fascinating about Rosemary while you actually worked on this book? I feel like we have gotten around to actually talking about her a lot.
- [55:09]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, of course. So okay Rosemary. Why did I love Rosemary? Rosemary is kind of this fascinating figure. She was born in 1935 in St. Louis and dropped out of high school and was in an extremely abusive relationship and managed to flee that relationship on her own in New York City, became a model, was then a stewardess during a time where it was harder to be a stewardess than it was to get into Harvard, apparently. Yeah, it was like the requirements were extreme, and you aged out by age 30. And she was, you know, in the. She was married again to this kind of wild character who was a jazz accordionist who was from Holland and was a Holocaust survivor. I mean, she had lived, like 70 lives before she had even met Timothy Leary. And she had also started to experiment with drugs. She was like, experimenting with a lot of weed at jazz clubs. And then she started doing lsd. And she had this really interesting mystical experience when she was 8 years old in St. Louis, where she felt like she was plugged into some kind of electrical grid and everything was connected. And it was a real pivotal moment in her biography, in her life. And it's interesting cause a lot of, like, people later who become, like, shamans or, you know, you know, kind of, like religious figures often have these, like, spontaneous mystical experiences in childhood. And like, some people have, like. There's one book about spontaneous mystical experiences in childhood. It's probably called that. I don't know. But, you know, a lot of children have those experiences, but, like, we forget them or if, like, they're not, like, valued, so they're not, like, seen as, like. But for Rosemary, she, like, inherently found value in that. And I would argue, like, the rest of her life is kind of, in a way, like, trying to recreate that experience in her youth.
- [57:09]
Jack Wagner
Yeah.
- [57:10]
Susannah Cahalan
You know, and because it was profound for her. And so she, like, ends up in this experimental commune called Millbrook, a Hitchcock estate in Millbrook, New York. And there Timothy Leary and some of his Harvard psychologist pals and some artists and writers and musicians all got together in this commune upstate, upstate New York, where they were kind of just messing with consciousness, dyeing the eggs green and the milk black, trying to destabilize, having a bell toll every few hours randomly. And you had to be suddenly present using a lot of the kind of human potential movement people like Gurdjieff and. And really, you know, the idea of, like, that we're all, like, in a stupor, and there are some people who are awake and really testing that. Using lsd, obviously, like, in a very ritualized sense, but also, like, in an experimental scientific sense. So they would, like, log their reports, like, they would always write about them, or they would, like, try them in different settings. They would put people together for, like, a week, dropping acids straight, and they had to, like, report back on what happened. So, like, everything was kind of like both. And there's some, like, you know, Eastern religious kind of elements. There was like, some, you know, like, New Age psychology, but also, like, some experimentation, like, all mixed up together with psychedelics going on there. And she found a home there and lived there with Timothy Leary for a good, like, you know, three years and undertook a lot of that and really began to, like, study the use of psychedelics and, like, how to best, like, harness psychedelics and guide trips and, like, challenge and promote, like, what they were calling ego loss. So she became, like, a student of that and was considered to be, like, the queen of setting, which was, like, the reference to Timothy Leary's, like, set and setting. The idea of, like, mindset, which could be like, you know, what's going on in your mind, but also, like, your biology, like, what you come in with, and then, like, your setting, which is the environment. And Rosemary was like, a queen of set.
- [59:22]
Jack Wagner
Did he coin that term?
- [59:23]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes, he did. Wow. In the psychedelic experience, he and Ralph Metzner, Ram Dass, were working on set and setting.
- [59:31]
Jack Wagner
And so what were these two doing? I mean, I'm really eager to learn more about Timothy Leary one day, but it seems to me that they are just basically going around spreading the gospel of acid. Is that what they're doing? I mean, absolutely. I think a lot of people were doing that at the time. This is like a brand new, revolutionary, revolutionary thing. The economy was good, People had free time to hang out.
- [59:55]
Susannah Cahalan
Exactly, yeah.
- [59:56]
Jack Wagner
Do things like this, I guess.
- [59:58]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, you could drop out and, like, you know, you'd be fine at the end of it, basically. But, yeah, that's harder to do nowadays, I would say. I mean, there definitely are communes out there. I'm sure there are people doing it, but so they're bouncing around. They're, you know, and Timothy Leary, really, even though you think a lot of people at the time were doing this, he was really the biggest one and, like, the early adopter of psychedelics, the one who was really promoting it in, like, you know, your parents talk show it. Like, you know, like, he was on all the kind of shows. He was in every single newspaper. He was the face. And, you know, he had talked to, like, the media theorist Marshall McLuhan about how to promote this and, like, the big thing Was like, to do it with a smile and sell it like Coca Cola. And that's what he was doing.
- [60:43]
Jack Wagner
Yeah. And they did not. They did not like that.
- [60:45]
Susannah Cahalan
No, no.
- [60:46]
Jack Wagner
And then, I mean, at the time, I could be wrong, but at the time, wasn't this famously called the. The biggest threat to American society? And the Vietnam War, like, LSD was and Timothy Leary.
- [60:58]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, Timothy Leary was the face of that. And then he has the gallery to run for governor of California against Ronald Reagan. Yeah. And that's when he's arrested again. So he's arrested several times, but he and Rosemary were arrested at the Mexico border. Their houses were raised, were raided in Millbrook multiple times by. It's so bizarre. G. Gordon Liddy. I don't know if that means anything to you, but he was one of the plumbers and Nixon plumbers in Watergate, but he worked in Poughkeepsie before then in the da and he was one of the people rating Timothy Leary's.
- [61:34]
Jack Wagner
I mean, speaking of psychosis, like, if you learn anything about this part of history, you feel insane learning about it, because these people pop up and you're like, am I losing my mind? Or like, why was this guy in all of these places at the same time?
- [61:51]
Susannah Cahalan
You're so. I mean, you're so right. And I had, like, the FBI files of Timothy Leary's FBI files, and, like, so much of it is still redacted. It's all like just blank black spaces, you know, and you're like, what is the deal, you know, even this far off? And then you see, like, all these undercover people in the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground, and, you know, it's just. It was a wild time and.
- [62:16]
Jack Wagner
Well, because all of this was a threat. I mean, that was very. There were, you know, official and unofficial attempts to squash these movements. Right. Because it was considered to be a threat. And so there was, like, this effort, you know, and you could go down the rabbit hole of that. And.
- [62:32]
Susannah Cahalan
And the thing is, like, Rosemary was live. Like, Rosemary was like the right hand woman throughout this whole thing, and she. Her life was like, the most directly affected in terms of. Between him and her. Like, you know, he. He did prison time, but he eventually cooperated with the feds and turned on her. Oh, God. Yeah. So he. He ended up decoding their prison letters where she was planning his escape with him. He worked with the feds, tried to get her to turn two, tried to, you know, lure her with money, lure her with his love, and she ended up going further Underground, and she never turned on anyone. That was the whole thing. So she's really, like. It's really a story of, like, great integrity and. Yeah, like, as opposed to his story, which is more complicated in that way. She's also a really complicated woman, though, because, like, she's kind of like this transgressive person who was a seeker. You know, she really believed in the worth of, like, tapping into your consciousness and, like, expanding it and testing its boundaries and, like, taking things like synchronicity very seriously and, like, really, like, studying them, you know, like. Like, really becoming, like, a student of the cosmos, you know, whatever, you know, she really did believe in that, and she believed that, like, you know, she has a great line, which I think is, like, could be, like, a theme of your podcast, which is, like, she talks about what psychedelics did for her ultimately. Cause she was not a proselytizer like Timothy Leary. She always found that uncomfortable because she knew that. She believed that they were very strong tools and that they were not for everyone. And she would say things like, you know, the responsibility of turning people on, like, really overwhelmed her. And she said it made her feel. She was a big science fiction fan, and she said it made her feel like Frodo in Lord of the Rings. Like, having the ring, like, just. It was, like, too much. Too much of a burden to, like, get people to drop acid who maybe shouldn't be. So she was way more circumspect than Leary was and, like, I think wiser in her counsel. But, like, when she. She talked about, like, what effect psychedelics had on her life, and she said, essentially, like, I see the beauty more in the world. Like, I'm more open to beauty. And, like, there are moments when I'm, like, you know, walking and kind of, like, when she was 8 years old, and she's, like, kind of struck with the greatness and the vastness and the beauty of the universe. And she said that she believes because of her prolonged psychedelic use, she probably, like, kind of believes in everything, but also in nothing. But she's in a comfortable place. I love that line. I think that's so the idea of, like, being comfortable in the unknown, being comfortable in everything and nothing, like, that's a very. That's a difficult place. That's like, a very rocky terrain. No, I understand that.
- [65:21]
Jack Wagner
I think that's a good way to be.
- [65:23]
Susannah Cahalan
Me, too.
- [65:23]
Jack Wagner
That's why I try to be a little bit.
- [65:24]
Susannah Cahalan
I feel like it could be your slogan. I really do. And that's why I love her. So much. And that's why I was more interested in her than Timothy. Because Timothy's like, you know, take LSD and see, you know, like, you know, you have to lose your mind to go out of your head. You know, it's like, you know, his. That those are his slogans and she was part of creating some of those. But really she was someone who was like, way more respectful and like I would say, like mindful of like the fact that, you know, when you. And I think this like applies. That kind of perspective applies not only to psychedelic use, but like talking about these, like the paranormal, the esoteric, like the idea of like having one foot on the ground. Like when you're like traversing these visions and like taking things like this seriously and really opening your mind. But like to still have your feet on the ground, like to still base it as much as you can. And like the reality that we're living in now. I think it's like a really good. It's a really good reminder and a really good lesson that I think extends beyond psychedelic use.
- [66:23]
Jack Wagner
Especially these people, you know, Timothy and Rosemary going around and the people they're meeting. How many domino chain effects did they start by just, you know, meeting somebody in one day? I mean, it's kind of funny to think about him running against Ronald Reagan.
- [66:36]
Susannah Cahalan
It's wild.
- [66:37]
Jack Wagner
It's kind of funny to think about an alternate universe where he did beat Ronald Reagan.
- [66:42]
Susannah Cahalan
Well, you know what's wild? Like talk about like butterfly effects of like a cute butterfly effect. There are like a lot of butterfly effects will never even. Just like in terms of the effect of the culture and the music and just like politics. But one cute butterfly effect that's like tangible. Is that rose? So when Leary was running for governor, like some like the headlines at the time, the independent newspapers, like the underground newspapers were totally behind it. Cause they thought, they thought it was great. And they were like love for gov. Like they were all, you know, like those were the slogans. And Leary asked John Lennon, who. He was at the bed in with Yoko. Timothy Leary was there and Rosemary was there. And that's like this amazing picture of Rosemary, like staring at the camera and like you'd never noticed her before. But there she is in the center of the action. Just fascinating. But they were friendly with John and Yoko. And so when Leary was working on his campaign, he asked John if he would do the. Write the campaign song like for him. And Rosemary came up with the slogan, his campaign slogan, which was Come together, Join the party.
- [67:44]
Jack Wagner
Wow.
- [67:45]
Susannah Cahalan
And it Became obviously in very different form, but eventually became Come Together.
- [67:50]
Jack Wagner
That is crazy, isn't it?
- [67:52]
Susannah Cahalan
It's wild. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. And, you know, her lawyer could have.
- [67:57]
Jack Wagner
Been a good book title.
- [67:58]
Susannah Cahalan
Come Together. Not bad.
- [68:01]
Jack Wagner
There's probably a million books, Beatles books. I'm sure the Passive Queen is good.
- [68:05]
Susannah Cahalan
Thank you. Thank you.
- [68:06]
Jack Wagner
That's a good title.
- [68:06]
Susannah Cahalan
I feel like it's pretty good. She's, you know, Allen Ginsberg. Allen Ginsberg gave her that. That title.
- [68:12]
Jack Wagner
Really?
- [68:12]
Susannah Cahalan
Yes.
- [68:12]
Jack Wagner
See, they're connected to everybody.
- [68:14]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, my God. I was like, there's. She's a Zelig. Like, even before she meets Leary, she's, like, hanging with Jack Kerouac and, like, you know, Miles Davis and the whole jazz scene in New York. I mean, she was like a. But a magnet. And she was. It's really interesting. Cause, you know, she wasn't a writer or. I mean, she did. She did write, but she was never a published writer. And she wasn't, you know, an actress or a musician. So it's, like, not the typical subject of a biography. Like, what she was, was someone behind the scenes, like, in a caretaking role, in a support role. And just as you said before, like, how many people. How many women have, like, just gone undocumented or just never get their due? Like, I thought it would be a really interesting exercise to shift the focus. Almost like if you're thinking about a camera lens, like, who's outside of the frame or right at the edge of the frame, and kind of shift it onto her. And it was really exciting. Cause I'd be like. It would be like, sleuthing. So I'd be looking at all these newspapers and like, oh, there'd be Rosemary. Like, I remember one time, I was. I heard a story about the first time she went to Millbrook, the acid commune in upstate New York, that she had a black eye because the person she was dating was. Alan Eager, was a kind of a famous saxophonist, jazz musician, but he was very abusive, and she was fleeing him. And Leary kind of came and saved her. And I thought, wow, what a detail. Black eye. Like, I was like, is that true? You know, because you're always, like, trying to suss out if people are exaggerating. And so I found this footage from Canadian Broadcasting Company. You can find it online. It's called, like, LSD Crisis. You know, it was, like, when things started to turn against LLSD in the mid-60s, and they were interviewing Leary at the Millbrook estate, and all of a sudden, the camera kind of pans to a room where they're having a session where, like, all these people are taking LSD and Leary's leading it. And, like, they pan across this woman's face and it's Rosemary and she has a black eye. And it was. I know it doesn't sound like a lot, but it was like, mind blowing to all of a sudden, like, see her there. And then when I started to, like, dig in the archive, I realized, like, there was a period of time when she was super famous, like when they would just say Rosemary in the underground newspapers and people would all know who you were talking about, because she became the kind of face of the movement when Leary was in prison. So it was just an amazing, interesting.
- [70:28]
Jack Wagner
Glimpse into a time where a woman could just be walking around with a black eye. And people were like, oh, okay.
- [70:34]
Susannah Cahalan
Not even a comment. Yeah, pretty fucked up. So, you know, so, you know, she becomes this, like one named media heroine. She helps her husband, Timothy Leary, escape from prison in this, like, really cinematic, bizarre moment that's like. I mean, I still don't really understand how he was able to do it, but he, like, escapes prison, they go on the run.
- [70:54]
Jack Wagner
Wait, how did they escape? How did they escape?
- [70:56]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, I mean, he claims he was able to kind of game the system. He did a lot of, like, interpersonal psychology and also, like, did a lot of testing, like, did a lot of, like, psychological testing before he became involved his psychedelics. So he would write these. Something called the Leary Circle, which was like a personality assessment, in other words, like how you relate to other people. So apparently one of his own personality tests was administered to him while he was in prison. And he was, you know, again, this could be apocryphal story. I think it's true, but it's hard to say. He's so. There's so much mythology wrapped up in him, but let's say it's true and he was able to present himself as a kind of doddering old man that he was not, you know, he was in his late 50s at the time. And, you know, he was seen as not a credible threat and not a credible flight risk. So they put him in, like, a very low security prison, like one of those, like, you know, where you go golfing all day. And somehow he managed to, like, climb up, like, barbed wire and over a pole, you know. Rosemary later did express some questions about how easily he was able to get out. Like, like, not at the time, but later when she became really aware of, like, the CIA's involvement with psychedelic Research. She started kind of doubting her own version of events and she started doubting Leary. And so some of her diary entries start like, questioning some of these things. But taken on face value, he was able to get out and he escaped.
- [72:21]
Jack Wagner
Well, yeah, there's like these theories that Manson was allowed to get off the hook over and over again.
- [72:27]
Susannah Cahalan
Amazing book. Chaos. Exactly like that is amazing.
- [72:29]
Jack Wagner
The idea that basically, like, it would be a way to kill the hippie movement.
- [72:33]
Susannah Cahalan
Exactly.
- [72:34]
Jack Wagner
Somebody like that was out making it.
- [72:35]
Susannah Cahalan
Look bad and even more maybe preordained. Who knows? But like, who knows? I don't know. All I know is that Rosemary, I mean, from Rosemary's perspective, he escaped prison and it was above board. She definitely was not involved in like any kind of COVID up. But later she questions it, so it's kind of interesting. But anyway, he escapes. They end up reuniting. She ends up putting on this disguise where she's like, has a blonde wig. She looks like a June cleaver, like a 50s housewife. And he shaves his head and looks like a businessman. And they board a plane to Paris, stay over there for a few days, and then he ends up going to Algeria where the Black Panthers had set up an international headquarters headed by Eldridge Cleaver.
- [73:19]
Jack Wagner
Sounds amazing.
- [73:21]
Susannah Cahalan
It's just so wild. I mean, again, it's wild. Okay, so then, so she ends up. Up going with him to Algeria. It's an unhappy asylum. Like, it's not a good happy place because Leary is totally out of touch and he's like. Doesn't have his hearing aids. He had hearing aids. He's talking really loudly. He's doing acid. The Black Panthers who were in Algeria were not about acid at all. Really serious young men, like, they were not happy. Algerians were not happy about drugs at all. They had just like gotten, you know, they were in a war with France, like a hundred years, and they gotten their independence. They were not. They thought that like, drugs were tools of colonialization, you know, like, they were not into these, this couple. And in fact, when Leary and Rosemary are announced that they're there, the, the newspapers report them as, as African American psych psychologists. Like, they totally misreport who it was. They, they call them, you know, a Harvard psychologist. They don't talk about the drugs at all. And then eventually it starts to come out that it is. That it's Timothy Leary there. And like, everyone's unhappy. Leary starts to fight with Cleaver. Cleaver gets ang. Does acid, has a horrible experience, ends up kidnapping them. And Rosemary and Timothy have to kind of. They're actually kidnapped and taken to a safe house where apparently Cleaver may or may not have killed one of a man who had an affair with his wife. So it was like, high stakes moment. They end up escaping the Black Panthers and going to Switzerland where Leary's arrested again and Rosemary has to free him once more by raising money. And at that point, they're at an impasse and they separate. And this is where, like, the record really goes dark, you know, where it goes blank for me, because at this point, when they break up, she's, like, no longer part of the historical record at all. So what happens that I found, you know, reporting this out was that she went underground, first in Switzerland, then in Italy, then she's in south and Central America. When Timothy, like, starts to cooperate with the feds, when he's arrested in Afghanistan and he's extradited to the United States, and. Yeah, and then she lives underground.
- [75:31]
Jack Wagner
This is crazy. This is crazy.
- [75:33]
Susannah Cahalan
It's wild. It's wild. She lived underground for 24 years. She lived under an assumed name in America. So it's just a story that gets wilder and wilder.
- [75:41]
Jack Wagner
So if you're up for it, I would love to talk to you more in a bonus episode.
- [75:46]
Susannah Cahalan
I would love to.
- [75:47]
Jack Wagner
Okay, great. That being said, the Acid Queen is the book you should read if you want to hear more about the life of Rosemary Woodrow Leary. It's out. Where would you like them to go get this book, Susanna?
- [76:01]
Susannah Cahalan
I mean, you know, any place you want, but I love, you know, an indie would be nice. Go get a independent bookstore if you have one near you. Or, I mean, I'm just happy if you'll read it, if you'll listen to it. I actually did the audiobook for it, so that'd be awesome.
- [76:16]
Jack Wagner
I have two copies of it. Your publisher sent me two on accident. So, you know, if you. If you're one of my friends, you know, yeah, go. I have an extra copy.
- [76:24]
Susannah Cahalan
Who wants an extra copy? We have one.
- [76:28]
Jack Wagner
And where could people find you, Susanna?
- [76:31]
Susannah Cahalan
Oh, gosh. I'm on Instagram and I have a website, susannah cahalan.com. and actually, I'm gonna be at Lilydale this summer. I'm talking at Lilydale about Brain on Fire, actually Experiences, which is headed by Shannon Taggart, who is, I know, a big, big friend of the podcast. And there's gonna be a Lilydale symposium.
- [76:53]
Jack Wagner
You can get your tickets now.
- [76:55]
Susannah Cahalan
Yeah, go there. It's an amazing roster of people. And I went last year and it was life changing. And I highly recommend if any of these subjects are of interest to you, you will find your people in Lilydale this summer. It's in July.
- [77:10]
Jack Wagner
I was supposed to be speaking there myself, but my sister, my sister had to go and get married that week. So sorry to say, I'll be at my only sister's wedding.
- [77:19]
Susannah Cahalan
We have to do it, but fair.
- [77:21]
Jack Wagner
Excuse me.
- [77:21]
Susannah Cahalan
How dare you.
- [77:23]
Jack Wagner
It was great to talk to you. I'm gonna continue talking to you on a bonus episode. But, but thank you so much, Susanna. And folks, thank you for listening to Otherworld. All right, thank you so much to Susannah Cahalan for joining me. If you want to hear more, I continue to talk to Susanna about her experiences from Brain on Fire, the paranormal and much, much more on a bonus episode that's available on the OtherWorld Patreon. That's patreon.com otherworld. Her new book is called the Acid Queen. Go check it out. Thank you once again to Susannah Cahalan.
- [78:15]
Susannah Cahalan
And thank you for listening, Sam.