John Adams - not the President

Summary

Classical Music Happy Hour

Episode: John Adams – Not the President

Host: Emanuel (Manny) Ax
Guest: John Adams (composer)
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode of Classical Music Happy Hour features lauded American composer John Adams (not the President)—known for landmark works like Nixon in China and Short Ride in a Fast Machine—in witty, insightful conversation with pianist and host Emanuel Ax. They explore Adams’ approach to composing for instruments he doesn’t play, the stories behind his memorably titled works, evolving trends in classical music, family, influences, and more. The episode also includes lively listener questions, hands-on music games, and Adams’ reflections on the nature of inspiration, communication in art, and staying fresh as a living composer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On Composing Without Playing the Piano

• [01:52 – 04:18]
  • Manny Ax expresses admiration for Adams’ piano writing despite Adams not being a pianist.
  • Adams: “It’s kind of a miraculous thing that I can’t play the piano. And when I sit down, you know, strange things come out... it’s possible that because... my hands don’t go down on the keyboard in the conventional way, perhaps I come up with ideas that somebody who is a pianist wouldn’t dream of.” (04:03)
  • Both agree that outsiders’ perspectives can lead to fresh, original results.

2. Behind the Titles: “Hale Bop,” “Gnarly Buttons,” and More

• [05:23 – 07:11]
  • Adams shares stories behind quirky titles, from “Hale Bop” (misheard comet) to “Scheherazade.2” and “Gnarly Buttons.”
  • Adams: “I just love titling my pieces...One of them I call Naive and Sentimental Music, which is a term that comes from Schiller.” (06:40)
  • He values titles as a creative act, echoing approaches by Steve Reich (e.g., “Music for 18 Instruments”).

3. The Evolution of Musical Forms

• Listener Q&A [08:03 – 11:24]
  • Mary from New Jersey asks how musical styles evolved over 400 years.
  • Adams: “Music evolves in response to technological inventions...and also, music responds to societal changes...music evolves just like life does.” (08:39–09:55)
  • Adams and Ax discuss how complexity is often followed by a move toward simplicity in cycles.
  • Adams: “Turn the page [from Schoenberg and Webern] and it's Steve Reich.” (11:15)

4. Composer Name Mix-Ups & Family Life

• [11:47 – 12:46]
  • Both recount being mistaken for other musicians (e.g., John Cage).
  • Adams talks about his family’s creative pursuits: “The only thing we’re missing in our family is somebody in finance to pay for it all.” (12:36)

5. Creative Process: Puzzles, Intuition, and Magellan

• [12:52 – 15:05]
  • Ax likens assembling Adams’ music to a mosaic or puzzle.
  • Adams: “I liken my creative process more to Magellan just leaving, knowing that there’s something out there, but not knowing exactly what it is or where it is.” (14:09)
  • He avoids over-analysis to protect both “devils” and “angels” of creativity (paraphrasing John Cage).

6. On Reading, Languages, and Ferrante

• [15:29 – 16:29]
  • Adams enjoys reading in other languages—lately Elena Ferrante’s Neapolitan Quartet in Italian.
  • Anecdotes about German’s linguistic complexity, Thomas Mann, and the challenge of reading Dr. Faustus.

7. Music, Drinking, and First Albums

• [18:35 – 19:33]
  • Adams chooses craft IPAs after work.
  • First album purchases: Mozart Clarinet Concerto, Sibelius symphonies, Copland’s Appalachian Spring score.

8. Dinner with Composers and ‘Minor Key’ Mystery

• Listener Q&A [20:16 – 22:09]
  • Barbara from Knoxville: Which composers use minor keys most effectively?
  • Adams: “I think that there is a great repertoire of music that is essentially on the dark side of human experience, and those are the ones that are in the minor keys.” (20:36)
  • Braham’s and Mahler’s Fifth Symphony highlighted for their depth in the minor.

9. Writing Operas: Texts and Inspirations

• [22:37 – 24:03]
  • Adams explains his operas always start from the text or concept, never from music alone, and shares the origin stories behind Nixon in China, Doctor Atomic, and Antony and Cleopatra.

10. Adams’ Favorite Handel Discovery

• [24:10 – 27:57]
  • Adams discusses falling in love with a Handel aria (“Tu del ciel ministro eletto”) after reviewing the book Every Valley; he admires Handel’s melodic craft and urges himself to remember the importance of beautiful melody.

11. Setting Words to Music

• [28:05 – 29:11]
  • Adams stresses the importance of setting quality texts, drawing on past work with Alice Goodman and classics like John Donne and Emily Dickinson: “There’s such great music within a great text, you know...” (28:37)
  • He is attentive to uniquely American rhythms when setting English poetry.

12. Art, Communication, and Being a Living Composer

• [29:18 – 31:36]
  • Adams reflects on the importance of emotional communication in music: “Music...is really about communicating feeling. And I care deeply about communicating what I feel to my audiences.” (29:53)
  • Discusses the oddity and expectations of being labeled a “living composer” versus visual or theater artists, and public comfort levels with new music.

13. The Power of the “Earworm”

• [31:57 – 32:17]
  • Adams encourages younger composers to write more melodies that stick: “There aren’t enough earworms being written today. Write some earworms.” (31:57)
  • Explains an earworm: “Just a melody… that gets stuck in your head. It’s so good, you can’t stop hearing it.” (32:09)

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Memorable Quotes

• “It’s kind of a miraculous thing that I can’t play the piano... Perhaps I come up with ideas that somebody who is a pianist wouldn't dream of.”
  — John Adams (04:03)

• “Music evolves just like life does.”
  — John Adams (09:55)

• “I liken my creative process more to Magellan—just leaving, knowing that there's something out there, but not knowing exactly what it is or where it is.”
  — John Adams (14:09)

• “Art, and particularly music, above and beyond all music, is really about communicating feeling. And I care deeply about communicating what I feel to my audiences.”
  — John Adams (29:53)

• “There aren’t enough earworms being written today. Write some earworms.”
  — John Adams (31:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Composing for Piano / Instrumental Outsidership: 01:52–04:18
• Titles & Inspirations: 05:23–07:11
• Listener Q: Musical Evolution: 08:03–11:24
• Composer Name Funnies & Family: 11:47–12:46
• Creative Process & Puzzles: 12:52–15:05
• On Reading/Writing in Other Languages: 15:29–16:29
• IPAs & First Albums: 18:35–19:33
• Listener Q: Minor Keys: 20:16–22:09
• Origins of Adams’ Operas: 22:37–24:03
• Handel Discovery / “Tu del ciel ministro eletto”: 24:10–27:57
• On Text in Music: 28:05–29:11
• Communication as Core of Art: 29:18–31:36
• Earworms: 31:57–32:17

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Games and Light Moments

• Music Performance Markings Quiz

  • Hilarious real and faux performance instructions (35:56–38:41):
    • Satie’s genuine marking: “Arm yourself with clairvoyance.”
    • Mozart’s wit: “Mr. Ass, are you finished yet? A sheep could trill like that.”
    • Kagel’s avant-garde: “Strike with the utmost force on the paper membrane of the timpani, in the process disappearing down to the waist in the body of the instrument.”

• Beer Puns & Dinner with Mozart

  • “So you grin and beer it.” — Manny Ax, on choosing an IPA. (18:44)
  • Both agree Mozart and Haydn would be fun dinner guests. (20:08)

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Conclusion

Emanuel Ax and John Adams’ conversation is both warm and illuminating, bringing together behind-the-scenes musical craftsmanship, candid reflections, literary influences, and plenty of humor. The episode demystifies both composing and the ongoing evolution of classical music, making the field approachable, witty, and very human. Longtime classical fans and newcomers alike will find much to enjoy—and, thanks to Ax’s astute questions, many reasons to return for a second listen.

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For listeners interested in tracking down featured music, asking their own questions, or learning more about contemporary composition, this episode is an accessible, lively entry point.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

Classical Music Happy Hour is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort, offering destination focused small ship experiences on all seven continents with a shore excursion included in every port and programs designed for cultural enrichment. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] you know, I thought that

[John Adams]

phrase came from Chuck Berry, but it turns out that it originated with Martin Luther.

[Manny Axe]

From WQXR and Carnegie hall, this is Classical Music Happy Hour hosted by me, pianist Maniacs. Each episode will speak with a special guest about their lives, listen to some of their favorite musical gems, play music inspired games, and answer questions from you, our listeners. My next guest shares a name with not one, but two US Presidents. He also just happens to be one of the preeminent composers of the 20th and now 21st centuries. Nixon in China, Dr. Atomic Short Ride in a Fast Machine. His catalog of works reads like a top 10 list of contemporary classical music. He's a conductor, a writer, a champion of young composers, a frequent contributor to the New York Times Book Review, and he has millions of fans of whom I am one. John Adams, welcome to the show.

[John Adams]

Thank you. It's great to be here, Manny.

[Manny Axe]

It's a great pleasure. I had the privilege of doing a piano concerto by you, I think maybe your first piano concerto.

[John Adams]

That's right, yes.

[Manny Axe]

Century roles, century roles. Very exciting. With fabulous titles, too. I have Manny's, Jim in the second movement, and I still think the third movement of that concerto is one of the great stories. You should tell it because you overheard a couple of professors at Berkeley. Is that what it was? Yes.

[John Adams]

This was back in the mid-90s and I did not know that there was a comet that was passing earth once every ten centuries or so, if I may say so.

[Manny Axe]

Probably one of the few things that you didn't know because you seem to know everything else.

[John Adams]

But I heard a couple of, I assume they were professors, University of California in Berkeley where I live, talking about the term Hale Bop. And of course I thought it was H A I L, like, you know. Yes. And bop, you know, kind of music. And then I learned later that it was the name of the comet. But anyway, that phrase stuck to me. And since there was a sort of jazzy feel to the last movement of the concerto that I wrote for you, I named it Hale Bop, only in my spelling.

[Manny Axe]

Fabulous. So it's a wonderful title. You've now written three piano concertos.

[John Adams]

I have. Which is quite remarkable given that I can't play the piano. I never took a piano lesson.

[Manny Axe]

Well, actually, that's one of the questions I wanted to ask was you played clarinet.

[John Adams]

That's right.

[Manny Axe]

That was your first real instrument or your last real instrument?

[John Adams]

My only one, yeah.

[Manny Axe]

How do you deal with doing a concerto for another instrument? You've written violin concertos. You've written a clarinet concerto.

[John Adams]

I have, yes.

[Manny Axe]

So that you probably know about.

[John Adams]

Yes.

[Manny Axe]

But I think you write wonderfully for the piano. And I just. I wondered how that came about.

[John Adams]

You know, it's kind of a miraculous thing that I can't play the piano. And when I sit down, you know, strange things come out. And here I have the greatest pianists alive. You and Vicky Gorolevs and Yuji Wang playing my concertos. I think, you know, it's possible that because I don't. My hands don't go down on the keyboard in the conventional way. Perhaps I come up with ideas that somebody who is a pianist wouldn't dream of.

[Manny Axe]

Yes, I see what you mean. Sometimes the best teachers actually are ones that don't play the instrument that they're teaching because they don't worry about how to do it. They just talk about what they want to come out.

[John Adams]

That's a strange concept, but I'll try to get my head around that one, I do think.

[Manny Axe]

Very true. I've had a lot of lessons with chamber music, things from violinists and cellists, and they would say, you know, this is what I want to hear. I don't know how you do it, but that's what I want. And I think that's actually helpful because you can then try and figure out your own stuff. If you're composing a piano concerto, violin concerto, is there a subject?

[John Adams]

In some cases there are. I'm thinking of the concerto. Well, I call it a dramatic symphony, which is a term from Berlioz that I wrote for Lila Josephovitz, the wonderful violinist. And that's called Scheherazade.2. And it does have a bit of an imaginary narrative. A modern woman who is, you know, it's kind of a feminist concerto, if there is such a thing, with a little bit of an imagined scenario. There's one movement called Scheherazade and the men with beards, you know, And I imagine her being scolded. I'm trying to think, well, I have a clarinet concerto called Gnarly Buttons.

[Manny Axe]

Gnarly Buttons. But I think that's not just you. I think in our time, there seem to be very few people that say Symphony Number Three or Piano Concerto Number Two. It's always some kind of title. Why do you think that is?

[John Adams]

Well, I have to hand it to my good friend Steve Reich. His titles are as clean and as pure as his music is. Music for 18 instruments, music for mallets and percussions. Yes, yes. I don't know. I mean, I just love titling my pieces. And I have several. I suppose you could call them symphonies, but one of them I call naive and sentimental music, which is a term that comes from Schiller. I have Harmonile.

[Manny Axe]

Isn't Harmonile a book by Arnold Schoenberg?

[John Adams]

Yes. It's about tonal harmony. About tonal. And in a way, this piece of mine is an affirmation of my embrace of tonality and the Piano Concerto I wrote for Eugene Wang. The title of that is why does

[Manny Axe]

the Devil have All.

[John Adams]

No messing my titles up, Manny.

[Manny Axe]

I'm really sorry. Why don't you tell me?

[John Adams]

Must the Devil have all the good tunes?

[Manny Axe]

Oh, well, that makes it so much better. Must the Devil. I will remember that.

[John Adams]

You know, I thought that phrase came from Chuck Berry, but it turns out that it originated with Martin Luther.

[Manny Axe]

Really?

[John Adams]

Yes.

[Manny Axe]

Well, that's way back. What year was that?

[John Adams]

Well, it was before the invention of the electric guitar.

[Manny Axe]

I'm hoping you can help me answer some questions about classical music from our listeners. We've invited them to submit their questions, and we're going to do our best to answer them. If we don't know the answer, especially me, I'll be happy to make something up.

[John Adams]

Absolutely.

[Manny Axe]

So here's a question from Mary in New Jersey.

[Listener/Caller]

Hello, my name is Mary. I'm from Scotch Plains, New Jersey. My question is, what types of music like symphonies or Gregorian chants have changed the most or evolved the most over about the last 400 years? When I hear medieval pieces, King's Consort kind of things, and I hear contemporary concertos with horns, for example, I'm wondering what the connection is through history, if certain types of music have retained their construction the same way, or others have evolved quite a bit. Thanks for taking this question.

[John Adams]

That's a really good question, because I've long felt that music evolves in response to technological inventions. If you listen to the very famous Goldberg Variations by Bach, which originally we assume were played on the harpsichord, And then you hear the same piece on the piano. It's just a different universe all together. And, you know, the piano kind of reached its ideal evolutionary point sometime in the 19th century, but before the piano was invented, Beethoven would never have written the kind of music he did. Likewise, look at the electric guitar, what that brought about the Whole genre of rock. So that's one way of answering your question. But also, music responds to societal changes. You know, Renaissance music, of course, that was all done within the court or within the church. And today we have recordings and radio and amplified music. You can have a concert with an audience of 30,000 people, whereas in the time of Haydn, it might have been, at the most 50 or 60. So music evolves just like life does.

[Manny Axe]

And do you think that there have been times of more and more complexity and then the reaction to it, that music becomes, again, simple because people are tired of the complicated stuff, and then it gets complicated again and it becomes simpler again?

[John Adams]

I do. You know, we see this in literature where you get something like Henry James with his very florid sentences, and then you follow that with Ernest Hemingway. And likewise the barracks Baroque period. Things were very, very ornate and complex. And then Mozart. Yeah.

[Manny Axe]

You find. You say, I just want to tune with a nice accompaniment.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[John Adams]

And I think that happened in the 20th century in classical music, because you had Schoenberg and Weber, very complex music. And then turn the page and it's Steve Reich.

[Manny Axe]

Yeah. So there you are. Thank you so much for the question. I was asked once, I was on a talk radio show, and I said I was playing the John Adams sentry roles. I said, really? The former president?

[John Adams]

Well, I remember waiting for my son in a big crowd at a baseball game, and this woman kept looking at me, and finally she came up and she stabbed me. She said, excuse me, but are you John Cage?

[Manny Axe]

Well, your son's name's Sam.

[John Adams]

That's right, yes.

[Manny Axe]

So he's got it worse than you do, because he's got the beer issue.

[John Adams]

He does, but he's managed to deal with that.

[Manny Axe]

And he's a wonderful composer as well.

[John Adams]

That's right, yes.

[Manny Axe]

And your whole family is involved in music, not your wife, I think.

[John Adams]

Well, actually, my wife Debbie does have a master's degree in composition from ucsd.

[Manny Axe]

I take it all back. Sorry.

[John Adams]

But she's devoted her life to photography, particularly landscape photography. And our daughter Emily started out as a violinist.

[Manny Axe]

That I knew.

[John Adams]

Yeah. But she's now really quite a wonderful painter. So the only thing we're missing in our family is somebody in finance to pay for it all.

[Manny Axe]

Yeah. What you really need, actually, is a dentist.

[John Adams]

I think we need a really gifted stock.

[Manny Axe]

Okay. Well, there's nothing I can arrange for you. I'm sorry. I feel like the way your music works, at least from the point of view of the performer, it's a bit like a Mosaic that things fit together in small increments. I certainly found that with century roles that we're constantly putting it together in little pieces and it makes a big picture. Do you do puzzles?

[John Adams]

I don't. I'm just not smart enough. My 8 year old granddaughter, you, when I'm driving her to her lessons, she's in the backseat doing wordle. Some people just have that. I know that Leonard Bernstein loved to do puzzles and see Stephen Sondheim. I'm just intellectually feeble.

[Manny Axe]

I was just curious because it strikes me that a lot of the time, at least for me, putting a piece together involved puzzles.

[John Adams]

You know, that's interesting. I try not to think too much in depth about how I compose for fear that I might, as John Cade says this wonderful thing about psych. He stopped doing it because he might get rid of his devils, but he might also offend his angels. But I think that I liken my creative process more to Magellan just leaving, knowing that there's something out there, but not knowing exactly what it is or where it is.

[Manny Axe]

What did he write? He didn't write any piano concertos, did he?

[John Adams]

No, I am using what's called an analogy.

[Manny Axe]

Oh, it's an analogy. I'm sorry. Excuse me. This was the composer, right? Or the. Or was this the explorer?

[John Adams]

I'm talking about. I'm talking about the explorer.

[Manny Axe]

The explorer.

[John Adams]

Okay. Yes. Okay. It's what's known as a figure of speech.

[Manny Axe]

I wonder. He wouldn't have. He wouldn't have known the original John Adams, would he? He was long before that.

[John Adams]

No. Yeah, yeah.

[Manny Axe]

So you don't really analyze that aspect of things.

[John Adams]

No, I. You know, I remember one of my teachers when I was in college was a very gifted composer, David Del Trege. And this was back in the late 60s at the time when composers were like Milton, Bec Abbott, and everything was systems, system, systems. And you didn't make a decision without it following.

[Manny Axe]

Yes.

[John Adams]

And David said, you know, somebody like Brahms, he had all this gift. He had intuition, he had technique, and he could just let it flow. He didn't have to depend on systems or intellectually analyzing everything. And that kind of fits me. You know, each composer's different. Some composers are very, very methodical and others are like jazz musicians.

[Manny Axe]

What do you read for fun?

[John Adams]

You know, I've always been interested in other languages, so I often punish myself by deciding to read. When I was studying German, I was reading or trying to read Thomas Mann.

[Listener/Caller]

Wow.

[John Adams]

And lately I've been reading almost through the neapolitan. Quartet by Elena Ferrante. And that's been a.

[Manny Axe]

In Italian.

[John Adams]

In Italian.

[Manny Axe]

Oh, fabulous.

[John Adams]

It's taken me a whole year to do that.

[Manny Axe]

I think I saw a German edition once of the Thomas Mann book Dr. Faustus.

[John Adams]

You can't read that.

[Manny Axe]

Well, what impressed me was that I think the. The first word of it is all. The whole line is one word.

[John Adams]

It's one of those.

[Manny Axe]

They seem to put all their verbs and subject things all in one word.

[John Adams]

That's right.

[Manny Axe]

Which is fantastic.

[John Adams]

You have to unpack it. Our good friend Reinberg Delayo, wonderful Dutch conductor, had great command of German. He said, I picked up Dr. Faustus and I. No, I cannot read this in German.

[Manny Axe]

Well, I tried reading it in English.

[John Adams]

That's hard.

[Manny Axe]

Enough of. This is Classical Music Happy Hour. I'm Manny Axe. We'll return in just a moment.

[Podcast Announcer]

Classical Music Happy Hour is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. For over 25 years, Viking has been connecting the thinking person with the world. First on the great rivers, then on all five oceans, now on all seven continents. Whether you choose to journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship, explore the ancient cities of the Mediterranean on a small ocean ship, or venture to the white shores of Antarctica on a purpose built expedition ship, you will always experience thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and onshore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive, with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] on Big Lives.

[Manny Axe]

We take a single cultural icon, people

[John Adams]

like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard,

[Manny Axe]

and we pull apart the story behind the image.

[John Adams]

And we do this by digging through

[Manny Axe]

the BBC's vast archives, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture.

[John Adams]

We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes.

[Manny Axe]

I'm Emmanuel Joci.

[John Adams]

I'm Kai Wright.

[Manny Axe]

And this is Big Lives.

[John Adams]

Listen to Big Lives wherever you get your podcasts.

[Manny Axe]

I'm Manny X and this is Classical Music Happy Hour. Let's return to our conversation with John Adams. What's your favorite drink after a long day of composing or conducting?

[John Adams]

Well, I live in Northern California, where I think the IPA rage began and I can't end the day without an ipa.

[Manny Axe]

So you grin and beer it.

[John Adams]

Indeed. And of course, half of the fun of these beers is their names, like, you know, dogs, birds, and, you know, you'll regret this.

[Manny Axe]

This is all news to me. Wow.

[John Adams]

Yeah. Let's see. One of my favorites is a beer called Nuclear Sandwich.

[Manny Axe]

What's the first Album that you bought with your own money.

[John Adams]

I suspect it was the Mozart Clarinet Concerto, because I did play the clarinet, but I also remember buying Sibelius Symphony. Those are back in the days when there was a label called Angel Record. The covers all look the same. I do also remember buying the score to Copeland's Appalachian Spring with the money that I earned from my paper route.

[Manny Axe]

Which composers would you like to have to dinner from now or from way back?

[John Adams]

Well, needless to say, Stravinsky was always interesting, although a lot of what we learn about him has been filtered through Robert Kraft. But, you know, he was a very intellectually curious guy.

[Manny Axe]

What about for fun?

[John Adams]

For fun, Not Debussy? I can go through all my favorite composers and I wouldn't want to have dinner with any of them. I think not Mozart. I think if it were Mahler, the food would be very, very spartan. Mozart would be a lot of fun. Probably Haydn, too.

[Manny Axe]

I think those guys would be good dinner guests. So this is a question from a listener who wants to know about minor keys.

[Listener/Caller]

Yes, this is Barbara from Knoxville, and my question is, what composers do you think use the minor keys most effectively? I love the music. The depth, the bit of mystery, and perhaps the darker emotions that come from those. And I'm wondering what your experience of it is. Thank you.

[John Adams]

We have in Western music, major and minor keys. You know, we think of the major key as the happy one and the minor key as the melancholy one. Every good song, every good piece of music has both. If you had nothing but major keys, it wouldn't be very interesting. But I think that there is a great repertoire of music that is essentially on the dark side of human experience, and those are the ones that are in the minor keys.

[Manny Axe]

One of the interesting questions that a friend of mine, Leonard Slatkin, used to ask is just to go, what pieces begin in major and end in minority? And there are not many. In fact, there are not so many pieces in minor keys that end in minor either.

[John Adams]

Well, this is true.

[Manny Axe]

A lot of them end in major. I think if I were to pick composers that use minor keys very well, from my point of view, first of all, Brahms. I love Brahms very deeply, but you couldn't call him a happy go, lucky composer.

[John Adams]

I agree. And when Mahler really wanted to lay it on, like the Fifth Symphony, That is really.

[Manny Axe]

Yeah. Well, a lot of funeral marches are in minor keys.

[John Adams]

And Tchaikovsky, the pathetic symphony. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[Manny Axe]

So that's basically it. Thanks for the question. When you pick a subject for an opera, does the subject come first the text. What was the first thing? Or was the music the first thing?

[John Adams]

Thing? No, the music was never the first thing. Each opera has a different story. In the case of Nixon in China, it was suggested by my longtime collaborator, Peter Sellars, who also suggested the death of Klinghoffer, Doctor Atomic, which is about Robert Oppenheimer and the creation of the atomic bomb and predates the film by 20 years or so. That was suggested by Pamela Rosenberg, who was general director of the San Francisco Opera, and she had an idea of it being an American Faust story. There was some deal with the devil that Oppenheimer made. And in the case of Anthony and Cleopatra, that's an interesting story, because the previous opera was about the California gold rush girls of the Golden West. And one of the things we discovered in research was that a popular form of entertainment in California during the 1850s was reciting Shakespeare. So in that libretto, there were a couple of passages from Macbeth, and I just loved setting Shakespeare. So when I got a request from the San Francisco Opera to compose another opera, I suggested Anthony and Cleopatra, which was a play that has always meant a great deal to me.

[Manny Axe]

You brought some music for us to listen to, and I'd love to know what you think about this Handel aria which I have just heard and flipped over.

[John Adams]

Well, if we'd been doing this conversation a year ago, I never would have chosen a piece by Handel. But I wrote an article for the New York Times Book Review, which is a review of a new book called Every Valley by Charles King, which is a wonderful book, not only about the creation of the Messiah, but also of Hambl and of London during the first couple of decades of the 18th century. And part of the reason I chose the assignment was that I didn't know anything about Hamill. So I took a deep dive into his music, and I just was absolutely floored by how beautiful it was. And I'm not surprised that many times if you ask a singer who their favorite composer is, they'll say Handel even before Schuberter Mozart.

[Manny Axe]

Wow.

[John Adams]

The Sario is called Tu del chel minestro Leto. To get into what it means, I

[Manny Axe]

looked it up, and I couldn't believe the title, right?

[John Adams]

And it comes from a very early oratorio. The handel was, like, 22 years old. He obviously was born in Germany, but he was living in Rome at the time, and he was in the company of cardinals who adored him. And this oratorio, which has an Italian title, Il Triumpho del Tempo el del Di, which means the triumph of time and disillusionment it's an allegorical text written by a cardinal who I think had a crush on Hamill. And among the characters a deceit and time and pleasure and beauty. So I chose this aria because it's so sublime. And it also speaks to me. Because I need to be reminded when I'm setting a text about the shape of a melody, that it rises and then it has to come down. And the way that a beautiful melodic phrase is supported by harmony, There are just these moments of dissonance which create a kind of tension and a conversation between the voice and the accompaniment.

[Manny Axe]

And this particular aria is quite, quite far ranging.

[John Adams]

It is.

[Manny Axe]

There are lots of sort of leaps for the soprano.

[John Adams]

And, you know, if you're a really good vocal composer, you save those leaps. You know where to put them. You just don't toss them anywhere. This particular AR is incredible.

[Manny Axe]

I always do think of you as an opera composer. Does any verbal stuff transmit itself to the nonverbal music?

[John Adams]

No, I don't think so. I mean, when I set texts, first of all, I need really great words to set. And one of the things that troubles me about a lot of contemporary American opera is that the composers are just not very discriminating about their texts. And a lot of libretti, they're very prosaic, you know, they get the message over. But there's such great music within a great text, you know, And I've set John Donne and Emily Dickinson and Walt Whitman, and then my librettist for Nixon in China and the Death of Klinghoffer, Alice Goodman was equivalent. And I think those are among the best libretti of our time. So when I'm setting the text, I'm hearing in my head the rhythm, the

[Manny Axe]

rhythm of the words.

[John Adams]

And it's very much an American rhythm. I mean, I always just feel slightly uncomfortable listening to Benjamin Britten's vocal settings. You know, they work within the context of his culture. But I grew up listening to American popular music.

[Manny Axe]

Yeah, maybe it's the name Benjamin Britten. Maybe if it were Benjamin.

[John Adams]

I don't know.

[Manny Axe]

I don't know. Benjamin, New Jersey or something. Just asking.

[John Adams]

With my name, it's gotta be American, I guess.

[Manny Axe]

You obviously want people to respond to your music and to listen to it as much as possible and to enjoy it in one way or another. I would think the most difficult thing in the world for any art form is to do something that is at the same time immediately engaging and yet interesting enough to come back. Do you think about that aspect of things?

[John Adams]

I do. And the thing is, That I come from a generation, when I was in school, those were really the hardcore bad old days when composers had reputations for being indifferent to their audience, even arrogant. And it always struck me as kind of ridiculous, because art, and particularly music, above and beyond all music, is really a about communicating feeling. And I care deeply about communicating what I feel to my audiences.

[Manny Axe]

I think what's terribly difficult for an audience sometimes is to engage with a piece enough that you say, this was interesting enough for me to get to know it better, or even for a performer to practice something a lot and find it interesting to play over and over and over. Is that something that doesn't enter your mind, or should it, you know, at all?

[John Adams]

Of course it enters my mind. It's funny, I was having a conversation with a wonderful pianist, Orlie Schachem, and she used the term living composer. You know, I thought, well, that's a really strange category. We don't talk about a living basketball player or, you know, a living mayor. But I think that what that term, where it comes from, is the fact that people just really associate great music with the past.

[Manny Axe]

Well, and a lot of us, a lot of the people that play that music have especially, you know, in my youth, the idea of playing a piece by someone alive was a real rarity.

[John Adams]

You know, it's always interesting. You go to moma here in New York. You have to wait in line to get into the museum. People can't get enough of contemporary art.

[Manny Axe]

Absolutely. Or theater.

[John Adams]

Or theater.

[Manny Axe]

Or theater.

[John Adams]

Exactly.

[Manny Axe]

Absolutely.

[John Adams]

But contemporary music, you know, there's always a danger that people feel intimidated. But I think if they hear my music, hopefully they want to hear it a second time.

[Manny Axe]

Well, I do think you've managed to find that road where you hear a piece for the first time and you say, either I love this, or I'm intrigued by it, and then you come back to it.

[John Adams]

Well, I said to a young composer, a good friend of mine, Timo Andres, I said, you know, there aren't enough earworms being written today. Write some earworms.

[Manny Axe]

What are earworms?

[John Adams]

Worms.

[Manny Axe]

Tell me.

[John Adams]

Ear worm is. Is just a melody you. That gets stuck in your head.

[Manny Axe]

Oh, I see. I see.

[John Adams]

It's so good, you can't stop.

[Manny Axe]

I see.

[John Adams]

Hearing.

[Manny Axe]

I see. And here's a question about tempo markings.

[Listener/Caller]

My name is Lewis, from Paoli Penns. My question is about composer's notation. So, for instance, allegro Montropo says who? The composer isn't around. Is this the conductor? Is it Emmanuel? Is it some machine metric? What Determines what is allegro and whether it's man on Troppo.

[John Adams]

What you're asking is the story of my life as a composer, because I really have a very specific notions of Tempe in my piece. And if somebody plays a piece of mine too slow or too fast, I get really freaked out. And there were composers, you know, we all know the story of Beethoven, who was the first composer to use metronome markings because the metronome was invented during his lifetime.

[Manny Axe]

The metronome being the gadget that you set it to a certain beats per minute and it clicks and it tells you how fast it should be, Right?

[John Adams]

Yeah. And you know, there were composers who just absolutely disdained the idea of a metronome. Debussy never would use it. And Brahms, as you mentioned, whereas a composer like Stravinsky or Bartok were like me, very specific about what they wanted. So I think it's really in part the composer's wishes. But some music invites what we call interpretation and you know, it makes life interesting. If you listen to Leonard Bernstein, especially towards the end of his life, he really liked slow Tempe. And if you listen to Toscanini, he always went to the other and everything was brisk and tight and fast.

[Manny Axe]

I once heard Daniel Barenboim talk about what is a tempo? And he said, you know, tempo is a little bit like a suitcase. When you're packing for a trip. If you're someone that's very involved with bringing out specific details and you want things heard a certain way, that's like packing a suitcase for a two week trip. And then other times, you know, when you want things to flow or that's like packing for a week. So the suitcase is what fits the particular music that you want to make. I thought it was a nice image. And obviously one of the most important differences between performances is how fast or slow it goes. Of course, I mean, that's the interesting thing. It changes according to the hall you're playing in, very much so according to the instrument you're playing. If the piano has a very heavy action, maybe you can't play fast enough for what's demanded. You have to slow down, down. It's a great, great question and something we deal with all the time. We just heard a question about tempo and we have a little game that we'd like to play. These are performance directions in a score and you're supposed to answer which ones are real and which ones are fake. So here's the first one. Eric Satie, French composer, is often known for his Unusual humorous score markings. Out of these four options, which is the real Satie performance direction? A, arm yourself with clairvoyance. B, as if wild animals were gnawing on your liver.

[John Adams]

Circumstances.

[Manny Axe]

C radiantly joyful despite the itching, and D, as if in tune.

[John Adams]

I would say probably.

[Manny Axe]

B, the wild animals gnawing on your liver. Well, I'm sorry to tell you, it's actually A, arm yourself with clairvoyance. And it's from a piece called Gnosien by Satie. Question 2. Mozart might not be known for wacky score markings, but he occasionally showed his wit and humor. Which of these directions can actually be found in one of Mozart's original handwritten scores for you, Mr. Ass. Are you finished yet? A sheep could trill like that. Or all of the above.

[John Adams]

Knowing Mozart, it's probably all of the above.

[Manny Axe]

It's all of the above. That's correct. That's the correct answer. It's all of the above.

[John Adams]

That's why we would like to have dinner with Mozart.

[Manny Axe]

Exactly. Some score markings are more complicated than others. But which of these directions is actually found in a score for timpani and orchestra? A, fill the timpani with hot water and during the third movement, steep strong builder's tea drink. During the fourth movement, B, strike with the utmost force on the paper membrane of the timpani, in the process disappearing down to the waist in the body of the instrument. Freeze. C, step onto the timpani. Proceed to tap dance for the entirety of the second movement. D, ignore the marking tacit, which means quiet play. Something that will horrify the conductor.

[John Adams]

You know, have. Having gone through, I've done a lot of avant garde concerts. I probably did all of those pieces. However, the second one sounds to me like it's been translated from the German, so I'm going to go with that one.

[Manny Axe]

That's absolutely correct. It was translated from the German. And it's from Maurizio Kagel's Concertstuck for Timpani Orchestra.

[John Adams]

We have to put this complete conversation in the Library of Congress. Okay.

[Manny Axe]

I hope I didn't annoy you too much, and it was wonderful to hear you pontificate on everything. John Adams, thank you so much for joining us today.

[John Adams]

Thank you. It's been terrific to be here.

[Manny Axe]

I am Maniacs. And this is Classical Music Happy Hour. Classical. Classical Music Happy Hour is supported in part by the Robert and Mercedes Eichholtz foundation and by Linda Nelson. Our production team includes Lauren Purcell Joyner, Eileen Delahunty, Laura Boyman, Elizabeth Nonemaker, David Norville, Christine Herskovitz and Ed Ye. Our engineering team includes George Wellington, Irene Trudell and Chase Culpan. Classical Classical music Happy Hour is produced by WQXR in partnership with Carnegie Hall.