John McWhorter - Lover of Language

Summary

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Classical Music Happy Hour: John McWhorter – Lover of Language

Podcast: Classical Music Happy Hour
Host: Emanuel (Manny) Ax
Guest: John McWhorter
Date: April 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

Emanuel Ax welcomes linguist, author, and music enthusiast John McWhorter for a lively hour exploring the intersections of language, music, and personal passion. The conversation covers McWhorter’s musical upbringing, his affection for musical theater, thoughts on classical music’s accessibility, listener questions, favorite works, and a fun round of “Bad Reviews of Famous Composers.” The tone is relaxed, witty, and inclusive—aimed at demystifying classical music while celebrating its joys.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. John McWhorter’s Musical Upbringing

[01:31 – 03:32]

• Grew up in a musical household with a wide array of instruments always around.
  • “There was a cello, just because… several harmonicas... a little xylophone... It was just around and so that was part of it.” — John McWhorter [01:48]
• Family listened to jazz, classical, funk, and soul.
• Self-taught pianist; reached Beethoven’s ‘Sonata Pathétique,’ “but I was never taught anything. My runs are terrible and my scales are non existent, but I do my best.” — John McWhorter [02:43]

2. Musical Theater as American Opera

[03:53 – 06:42]

• McWhorter did not grow up with Broadway, discovered it in college via Sondheim.
• Became obsessed with learning about and collecting musicals, focusing on scores more than storylines:
  • “What I’m really interested in is what’s going on down there in the pit and what the album is gonna sound like.” — John McWhorter [05:05]
• Sees excellent musicals as artistically equivalent to opera:
  • “The excellent musicals are, quote, unquote, as good as the excellent [operas]. I truly believe that.” — John McWhorter [05:25]
• Praises works like Most Happy Fella, Showboat, and Kiss Me Kate as deserving of preservation.

3. Accessibility and Labeling of Classical Music

[06:42 – 10:23]

• Listener question: Why is “classical” music called that?
• McWhorter reflects that the term is both historical and a marker of perceived “highbrow” art, but even he doesn’t know when it originated:
  • “When did people start calling Mozart classical music? And I don’t know.” — John McWhorter [07:25]
• Discusses the perception of classical music as requiring more effort or a specific kind of instruction to deeply enjoy.
• Ax offers a sports analogy: one can enjoy football casually but appreciation grows with understanding.
  • “But the more you know, the more you appreciate and the more you enjoy.” — Maniacs [09:08]
• Mutual agreement that classical music can be enjoyed “from nothing,” but immersion deepens the joy.

4. Favorite Pieces and Deep Listening

[11:06 – 13:33]

• McWhorter’s pick for underappreciated work: Brahms Clarinet Quintet.
  • Vivid description of the music’s narrative power:
    • “That part, to me, sounds either like going to hell or it just sounds like really, really good pot roast. … And then you come out… in a canoe on the water.” — John McWhorter [12:08]
• Personal connections—playing cello as a child—inflect his appreciation.

5. Is Music a Universal Language?

[13:33 – 15:10]

• “People say that music is an international language. Do you feel that’s true? First of all, no.” — Maniacs [13:33]
• McWhorter isn’t convinced—notes that musical perception (like savoring chord changes) varies with genetics and environment.
  • “What you and I probably think of as, oh, listen to that chord... that’s about as meaningful to a great many people as for me, the brushstrokes in some painting…” — John McWhorter [14:25]
• Points out that even tonal associations (“major is happy”) are taught, not universal.

6. The Language Game: Swearing, Difficult Languages, and Cataloging

[17:05 – 19:02]

• On favorite swear word: “Well, the four letter word that begins with F is a lot of fun. It’s just amazingly versatile.” — John McWhorter [17:05]
• Least favorite swears: dislikes euphemisms; finds “friggin” unsatisfying.
• Most difficult language he’s tried to learn: Russian.
  • “I don’t believe that any human being genuinely speaks Russian or Polish. Not to get too personal, because the Slavic languages are really some of the hundred most difficult in the world.” — John McWhorter [17:38]
• Fun confusion over Beethoven’s sonata numbers demonstrates musician banter.

7. Emotional Narratives: Beethoven’s Sonata, Pedal Point

[18:31 – 22:32]

• McWhorter’s favorite: Beethoven Sonata Op. 31, No. 3 (“The Hunt”).
• Describes the opening as “a little conversation…so sweet. Nothing bombastic.”
• Pedal point moments “always sound timeless. It’s like somebody reflecting on their life. It’s unchanging on the bottom and changing on the top. Whenever there’s a pedal point, I’m transported.” — John McWhorter [20:12]
• Ax and McWhorter enjoy differing interpretations, demonstrating the openness of wordless music.

8. Musical Dissonance and Taboo

[22:32 – 24:09]

• Comparing challenging “taboo” music to challenging language.
• Schoenberg, Bartok, and Boulez as shockers in their time—acidity, dissonance was once genuinely off-putting.
• “I think people were genuinely put off by dissonance…We’re more used to dissonance now, and I think a lot of people prefer it.” — John McWhorter [22:40]
• Amusing tidbits: Schoenberg played tennis with Gershwin.

9. Catalog Numbers Demystified

[24:22 – 27:21]

• Listener asks what all those letters/numbers (K, BWV, opus) mean.
  • Catalog systems explained: Köchel for Mozart, BWV (Bach Werke Verzeichnis) for Bach, opus (meaning “work”) often by composers themselves.
  • “Those labels are part of what makes the music seem a little forbidding to many people.” — John McWhorter [27:21]
  • But at heart, they’re no different than library codes!

10. “Bad Review” Game

[27:47 – 32:22]

• Segment host: Jeff Spurgeon.
• Players guess which famous musician or critic wrote outlandishly negative reviews of well-loved works.
  • E.g., Tchaikovsky dismissed Wagner as “a whole ocean of boredom.” [28:58]
  • Aaron Copland compared the experience of Vaughan Williams’s 5th Symphony to “staring at a cow for 45 minutes.” [29:38]
  • Clara Schumann called Liszt’s B Minor Sonata “just meaningless noise.” [30:36]
  • Yousef Joachim told Dvorak that his violin concerto clearly showed he hadn’t played violin in a while. [32:00]
• Laughter ensues over the surprises and historical quirks of criticism.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On family musical life:
  “There were several harmonicas, you know, in different keys. There were recorders, there was a little xylophone, There were little wooden flutes. It was just around and so that was part of it.”
  — John McWhorter [01:44]

• On being self-taught at piano:
  “My runs are terrible and my scales are non existent, but I do my best.”
  — John McWhorter [02:43]

• On the greatness of musical theater:
  “The excellent musicals are, quote, unquote, as good as the excellent [opera]. I truly believe that.”
  — John McWhorter [05:25]

• On ‘classical’ as a label:
  “Classical, of course, is a synonym for us, for what used to be called highbrow or oddly enough, long hair music… when Beethoven started being called classical music instead of just music. I genuinely don't know.”
  — John McWhorter [07:25]

• On Brahms’s Clarinet Quintet:
  “That part, to me sounds either like going to hell or it just sounds like really, really good pot roast.”
  — John McWhorter [12:08]

• On musical “universality”:
  “The idea that major is happy and minor, I would say for somebody under 35 these days, increasingly less is that Obvious. Which means that this is not a universal language, it's just what we're taught.”
  — John McWhorter [14:25]

• On the beauty of pedal point:
  “Whenever there’s a pedal point, I’m transported.”
  — John McWhorter [20:12]

• On catalog numbers:
  “Those labels are part of what makes the music seem a little forbidding to many people.”
  — John McWhorter [27:21]

• On negative musical criticism:
  “Listening to the fifth Symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams is like staring at a cow for 45 minutes.”
  — (Aaron Copland) [29:38]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• McWhorter’s musical family & self-teaching: [01:31 – 03:32]
• Broadway and musical theater: [03:53 – 06:42]
• Classical music’s label and accessibility: [06:42 – 10:23]
• Brahms Clarinet Quintet discussion: [11:06 – 13:33]
• Is music a “universal language”?: [13:33 – 15:10]
• Swearing, languages, Beethoven banter: [17:05 – 19:02]
• Beethoven’s Sonata Op. 31, No. 3 (“The Hunt”): [18:31 – 22:32]
• Music as a vehicle for taboo/dissonance: [22:32 – 24:09]
• Composer catalog numbers explained: [24:22 – 27:21]
• Bad review game: [27:47 – 32:22]

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Tone and Final Thoughts

The episode is both erudite and playful, weaving accessible explanations, deeply personal reflections, and generous musings from both host and guest. McWhorter’s insights connect music and language with humor and humility, inviting listeners—regardless of expertise—to relax, enjoy, and explore the rich world of classical music with curiosity and camaraderie.

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Transcript

[Announcer]

Classical Music Happy Hour is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort, offering destination focused small ship experiences on all seven continents with a shore excursion included in every port and programs designed for cultural enrichment. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] that part to me sounds

[John McWhorter]

either like going to hell or it just sounds like really, really good pot roast.

[Maniacs]

From WQXR and Carnegie hall, this is Classical Music Happy Hour hosted by me, pianist Maniacs. Each episode will speak with a special guest about their lives, listen to some of their favorite musical gems, play music inspired games, and answer questions from you, our listeners. My guest today is a professor of linguistics at Columbia University, but you might know him better for his writings on language, race and music in publications like the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Atlantic. Host of the language podcast Lexicon Valley, he is also the inexhaustible author of over 20 books. John McWhorter, great privilege to have you here.

[John McWhorter]

It's a privilege to be here. Emmanuel.

[Maniacs]

How did you get involved with music in the first place?

[John McWhorter]

I come from a very musical family on both sides. My mother sang with the Fisk Jubilee Singers when she was in college and my father just, he had a gift. Well, we had a piano from when I was very young and he could mess around on it. He could do boogie woogie and some pop things. And for reasons he never completely explained around the house and I will never know why there was a cello, just because. And I'd ask why as I got a little older and I wouldn't get a real answer. There were several harmonicas, you know, in different keys. There were recorders, there was a little xylophone, There were little wooden flutes. It was just around and so that was part of it. And then my father would play music in the house a lot. And there was a lot of jazz, there was a good amount of classical and maybe a good amount of funk and soul. It was a rich musical diet that I think me and my sister, both of us originally grew up in. And so we took it into our ears.

[Maniacs]

You play the piano?

[John McWhorter]

More or less, yeah.

[Maniacs]

Yeah. Do you play everything from soup to nuts or do you practice any particular stuff?

[John McWhorter]

I am self taught and I'm obsessive. And so I got to the point when I was a lady of being able to do Beethoven's sonata Pathetique. That's as far as I got. That's difficult and it is, except I didn't know because I didn't listen to it until long, long after I started playing it. I didn't know how fast it was supposed to be, so I had it relatively slowly. And that means that you're practicing up for being able to do it quickly. And it's not a virtuoso piece. And so that one. It's just hard. That's as far as I got. I did one Chopin Waltz. Not very well. I'm a pretty decent cabaret pianist, so I play piano in that way, but I was never taught anything. My runs are terrible and my scales are non existent, but I do my best.

[Maniacs]

Join the club. We all suffer from the same problem.

[John McWhorter]

The runs are the worst. That's why I don't do classical anymore, because you have to be able to do that.

[Maniacs]

I know that you love Broadway musicals, and I'm just wondering why that particular area attracts you maybe a little more than others.

[John McWhorter]

Actually, it might surprise many people to know that I did not grow up with theater music. That was not what my parents played in the house. I didn't see my first Broadway show until sometime when I was in college. I made friends with somebody who was a Sondheim head, and he dragged me to see a community production of A Little Night Music. And I was just blown away. And of course, that musical vocabulary was one that I was ready for because of all the classical and all of the jazz, et cetera. I thought it was really beautiful. And then also the lyrical. I wasn't raised with a whole lot of written poetry, but this just blew me away. And then I'm obsessive. And so after I had learned all of Sondheim, I realized he was taking a page from previous composers. And so I thought, well, who are they? What is Kiss Me Kate? How does something called on the Town sound? And so I just listened to all this and started collecting and making cassette copies. And then it just becomes, I'm collecting musicals. And so pretty soon, I had taught myself the subject, and I realized that there's a lot of rich music. And you're not supposed to say this. I like musical things because I like the scores. The books are okay, and it depends, but what I'm really interested in is what's going on down there in the pit and what the album is gonna sound like.

[Maniacs]

Do you feel that musical theater is American opera?

[John McWhorter]

Yes, and I think it is the equivalent in terms of artistic depth and sophistication to opera. The excellent musicals are, quote, unquote, as good as the excellent. I truly believe that.

[Maniacs]

So Bohem by Puccini.

[John McWhorter]

Mm. And that Rent by Frankly, no. What a snob that makes me sound. But if it's, say, Most Happy Fella by Lesser or Bohem, and I'm not being facetious, both Showboat, Jerome Kern or Kiss Me Kate by Cole Porter. Even though he didn't arrange it, he didn't orchestrate it, but the people who did it made those songs into. God, I would put those things on all the same level. Musical theater is more collaborative, but the result is something that deserves very careful preservation and complete curtain to finale recordings. Kiss Me Kate is a very rich work if you just listen to the score for two and a half hours.

[Maniacs]

John, I'm hoping you can help me answer some questions about classical music from our WQXR listeners. We've invited them to submit their queries and we're going to do our best to answer them. And if we can't, we'll make something

[John McWhorter]

up that works for me.

[Maniacs]

So here's a question I really wanted to ask. A listener writes, why do we call classical music classical? Oh, you've stumped him.

[John McWhorter]

That's great, Emmanuel. I don't know the etymological reason for that. As in there is the classical period, but then we're also gonna call Hindemith classical music, right?

[Maniacs]

So the classical period being Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, chiefly. But I'm talking about classical music as opposed to.

[John McWhorter]

Okay, the next thing is, when did people start calling Mozart classical music? And I don't know. Classical, of course, is a synonym for us, for what used to be called highbrow or oddly enough, long hair music. As in a kind of music that probably takes some practice to listen to and that many people only pretend to like when Beethoven started being called classical music instead of just music. I genuinely don't know. I'd like to look that up myself.

[Maniacs]

Do you feel that when we say classical music that there's a kind of automatic and an unfortunate segregation for people that may be open to listening to Beethoven, Schoenberg, Shostakovich, Chopin.

[John McWhorter]

I honestly think, and I don't think there's anything wrong with this, that the music that we call classical is a kind that. That one probably needs a little bit of instruction to be able to. I'm not gonna use the word appreciate, but to enjoy music that is based primarily on, you know, easy melody, basic harmonies, and often a lot of rhythm and kind of raw, authentic vocal emotion. That's easy. That's what all human beings can love and should. But then there's this thing where you've got the layered instrumentation, you've got the extended format, you can't dance to it. That is something where, just like with quot high art, you need a little help. And for me, that's true of, you know, that can be Palestrina, but then that is also Hindemith. That is Boulez. And that's a lot of music being written now. My sense of it is the challenge that is worth tackling. That's classical music.

[Maniacs]

I would say it maybe slightly differently in that I feel it's a little bit like football. I'm a big football fan, and I think you can watch a football game and enjoy aspects of it, but the more, you know, the more you appreciate and the more you enjoy. So I think you can start from nothing and enjoy it anyway. But, you know, I don't feel that you need a priori information before you take it in. But that's just my feeling, you know, I think especially pieces with energy, like, let's say, parts of the Rite of Spring, of Stravinsky.

[John McWhorter]

Good example. Yeah.

[Maniacs]

Yeah. I think anybody would kind of go crazy for that. And, of course, as you get to know the thing more, you will like it more and you'll get more layers of it.

[John McWhorter]

Sure. That's a good analogy. I would say that very few people would listen to the opening of a symphony and be put off. It's pretty. It's stirring. The question for me is, how will I keep them from being bored? You know, are you gonna like it in eight minutes? And then you need to know a little more.

[Maniacs]

Yeah.

[John McWhorter]

Football is a good example because to me. Cause I'm not a sports person at all. Football is opaque. Like, I've never quite understood what the downs were, where are they running, why? And I could be instructed. And I'm sure I could be as excited watching a game as everybody else, but just nobody ever tells me, well,

[Maniacs]

we'll take care of that.

[John McWhorter]

Teach me what a down is.

[Maniacs]

By the time the next super bowl comes around, you'll be an expert. There's a piece that you really, really like that you think needs to be listened to more.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah.

[Maniacs]

Which is the Brahms clarinet.

[John McWhorter]

Yes, very much. I associate it with something which is completely random. I played cello a lot when I was a kid. My mother kind of made me play cello. And I was actually, if I may, I was very good at it. I never really liked it because I didn't like the physical feeling. I didn't like the finger calluses. I didn't like how much time you had to spend up on the A string, because that wasn't as pretty as the lower strings. So I let it go as soon as I could and kind of kept teaching myself piano. But I played this piece in college, and it's hard. It was very. And this piece is the quintessence of autumn. And this was in the autumn. The fun part about it is that it starts out in. What is it? D major, the little prelude part. And then it goes into the B minor. I always liked that because when they do the repeat, they go right back to the B minor. And you realize, oh, that string thing in the beginning was just a prelude. I love that. And then just listening to the viola and the cello working together near the beginning. And then before they get to the transition. So there's the A and there's the B and there's the transition. Before they get to the transition, it goes down into these luscious minor key coffee ground depths. That part, to me sounds either like going to hell or. Or it just sounds like really, really good pot roast. And then you come out into the B section and they're in a canoe on the water, And it's autumn on the water. It's cold. With the way the harmonies go, the whole thing is like that. It just. It leaves me breathless.

[Maniacs]

People do say that music is an international language. Do you feel that's true? First of all, no.

[John McWhorter]

I feel that all humans can be made to appreciate a wide variety of musics. I would think music is a universal language. But when I teach students, and actually just when I experience other people, including people who are very artistically sensitive, depending on your experience and how you're wired, this is something I get from actually the composer Alec Wilder, something that he says in his book American Popular song up to 1950. He says that those of us who happen to savor harmony would be surprised at how many thoroughly brilliant people don't hear it. And he's right. It's a weird genetic thing. And also probably you have to be steeped in it. What you and I probably think of as, oh, listen to that chord. That's about as meaningful to a great many people. As for me, the brushstrokes in some painting are where I can listen to it being talked about, but frankly, it does not make me cry the way it makes them cry, then you may have experienced this major and minor. And more to the point, especially these days because so much hip hop is in minor and yet is very up music. The idea that major is happy and minor, I would say for somebody under 35 these days, increasingly less is that Obvious. Which means that this is not a universal language, it's just what we're taught.

[Maniacs]

But maybe we get accustomed to it if we're put in that environment.

[John McWhorter]

I hope, yeah, I want it to be that way.

[Maniacs]

I'm maniacs. And this is Classical Music Happy Hour. We'll return in just a moment.

[Announcer]

Classical Music Happy Hour is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. For over 25 years, Viking has been connecting the thinking person with the world, first on the great rivers, then on all five oceans, now on all seven continents. Whether you choose to journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship, or explore the ancient cities of the Mediterranean on a small ocean ship, or venture to the white shores of Antarctica on a purpose built expedition ship, you will always experience thoughtful service, destination focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and onshore. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive, with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] on Big Lives.

[John McWhorter]

We take a single cultural icon, people

[Kai Wright]

like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard,

[John McWhorter]

and we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's vast archives, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Emmanuel Joci. I'm Kai Wright and this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maniacs]

This is Classical Music Happy Hour. I'm Maniacs. Before the break, we were speaking with linguist and Columbia University Professor John McWhorter. Let's go back to that conversation. What's your favorite swear word or what's the euphemism you would use for it?

[John McWhorter]

Well, the four letter word that begins with F is a lot of fun. It's just amazingly versatile. It's got an interesting history. So I would say that one.

[Maniacs]

So firetruck was fine.

[John McWhorter]

Exactly. I say it all the time.

[Maniacs]

What is your least favorite swear word?

[John McWhorter]

I like them all. I mean, part of the reason that I wrote the book about them is because I enjoy profanity and I find it interesting. I don't like the euphemisms. So for example, friggin. I always kind of feel like, oh, come on, it's after 1965, just say it.

[Maniacs]

Okay?

[John McWhorter]

That sort of thing.

[Maniacs]

What for you was the most difficult language to learn?

[John McWhorter]

Russian is impossible. I don't believe that any human being genuinely speaks Russian or Polish. Not to get too personal, because the Slavic languages are really some of the hundred most difficult in the world.

[Maniacs]

Well, that's what I was born with, so.

[John McWhorter]

You're so lucky.

[Maniacs]

Well, only if you need to use polish, I guess. You have Beethoven Sonata number 18, which is number 18.

[John McWhorter]

It's.

[Maniacs]

I don't even know.

[John McWhorter]

It's.

[Maniacs]

Oh, 31, number three, I think.

[John McWhorter]

How do you do that?

[Maniacs]

That's how I know. That's how I know them.

[John McWhorter]

Wow.

[Maniacs]

Yeah.

[John McWhorter]

I know them with my own little eyes.

[Maniacs]

I don't know them by the number. I just know them by, you know, by the opus and thing.

[John McWhorter]

That was good. Wow. That was amazing. But, yeah, and I don't think anybody cares about this one. There are deeper Beethoven sonatas, and I get. I get them completely. But this one has always had a special place in my heart, especially the first movement.

[Maniacs]

I think it's called very often the Hunt. And I think probably because the last movement has these little horn calls. It's an E flat.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah.

[Maniacs]

Which would be natural horn. Okay.

[John McWhorter]

So that's why it's called that.

[Maniacs]

And is it the first movement that you love so much?

[John McWhorter]

I love it deeply the first time I heard it.

[Maniacs]

What attracts you? What in particular? Do you have specific ideas on why you love it?

[John McWhorter]

The opening statement is not what you would expect the opening statement of a sonata to be. It sounds like a little conversation. It's like someone asking someone a gentle question or come to me. And I find that so sweet. Nothing bombastic. It doesn't start out sounding like a whole bunch of birds flying through the sky. It's these two people probably in a glade. And then there's nice touches. There's bum, bum, bum. And then vum, vum, vum, vum. So I don't mean to stereotype, but it sounds like a woman saying something like, henry, dear. And then he says something like, what do you want?

[Maniacs]

That's actually great.

[John McWhorter]

It's very pretty. And then it gets deeper, and so it's soprano, alto, and then vum, vum, vum, vum. I love pedal point. When you've got the bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, that, to me, always sounds timeless. It's like somebody reflecting on their life. It's unchanging on the bottom and changing on the top. Whenever there's a pedal point, I'm transported. And then in this, he has a descending chord where it's voom, voom, voom. And that's in E flat. And then you have a ch that has a D in it for a second. And so there's this beautiful kind of slight dissonance there. All of that is just on that first page. And the first time I encountered it, I thought, this is my sonata. It's a little piece of drama, and it just never quits.

[Maniacs]

Just. I love that description. My feeling about it is much more prosaic. And that is that he starts out and he's in the wrong key. And he doesn't know where he's going. So he's looking. He's looking for it. And then how is he gonna start a real piece? So he goes a little bit higher.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah.

[Maniacs]

And then he finds the actual harmony he gets. He crawls up there. And then after all this, stops. Okay, I'm finally there. Let's get going. You know, so now I'm home. So that's just another.

[John McWhorter]

I get that.

[Maniacs]

And much more prosaic than your feeling about it.

[John McWhorter]

But yours actually teaches me something about mine. Cause I never thought about it, because I'm not inclined to play it.

[Maniacs]

So one of the nice things is here we are making up totally different stories to the same music. Which is nice because. Because if we had words, you know, like, if it said chicken salad, that's

[John McWhorter]

what you'd think, and you'd be hemmed in, right? Yeah, but I can listen to that first movement, especially all of it. But that first movement, to me, is just joy.

[Maniacs]

Is there such a thing as music that shocks and insults, like, taboo words?

[John McWhorter]

I think people were genuinely put off by dissonance. And that's not only, say, listening to Schoenberg, but I know that people were put off by the more challenging chords in, say, Beethoven sounded like noise. You're waiting for the chocolate box, Mozart. So I would say there's that. We're more used to dissonance now, and I think a lot of people prefer it. Alan, Shawn Wallace, Shawn's brother, has this wonderful book about Schoenberg where he's teaching you how to appreciate it. I learned to get Schoenberg by reading this.

[Maniacs]

It's interesting that the first name you brought up was Schoenberg, Because I happen to be a great Schoenberg fan.

[John McWhorter]

I get it.

[Maniacs]

And have played a lot of the music. But he's still kind of a figurehead for that kind of unpleasantness.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah. You know that acidity.

[Maniacs]

Yes.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah. Bartok, too. And you learn to listen in a different way. Yeah.

[Maniacs]

But very, very rarely do you mention Bartok or nobody mentions Boulez.

[John McWhorter]

And frankly, they should in this vein. That's right. Yeah.

[Maniacs]

Schoenberg is a real leader in this.

[John McWhorter]

And partly, I think, because of his personality. Although apparently he was very nice in Real life. But how pussy he was.

[Maniacs]

He was certainly a wonderful tennis player.

[John McWhorter]

That's what I hear. He played tennis with Gershwin.

[Maniacs]

Exactly, exactly.

[John McWhorter]

Apparently he was a warm father. But the music is quite a challenge. It's a worthy challenge.

[Maniacs]

We have another question from one of our listeners. A listener writes in and asks, when I see the title of a classical piece, there are sometimes random letters and numbers. For example, Mozart Symphony Number 40 in G Minor, K550, Bach's Cello Suite Number 1 in G Major, BWV 1007. What do those letters and numbers mean?

[John McWhorter]

Well, there are these bibliographical traditions that settle in randomly and you're supposed to understand what they mean. And maybe for that reason, so many of the pieces that are better known have more evocative titles, because nobody is gonna walk around thinking about that sort of thing.

[Maniacs]

Just to be absolutely straightforward, those are Bach's Social Security numbers.

[John McWhorter]

Oh, of course. Mention that.

[Maniacs]

So, for example, K550 refers to a gentleman named Kuchel.

[John McWhorter]

Oh, the Kuchel number. Right, Right.

[Maniacs]

It's a num. He cataloged all of Mozart's music. He delved into every possible source and found all the pieces and numbered them in his way. In his way, but approximately according to when Mozart wrote them, more or less. So if you look at K550, that's really near the end of Mozart's life.

[John McWhorter]

Right.

[Maniacs]

He wrote over 550 pieces. A lot of pieces.

[John McWhorter]

Is the Beethoven system chronological? Because I often find it a little bit confusing.

[Maniacs]

Pretty much chronological. Pretty much, yeah. It's hard to tell sometimes because Beethoven worked pretty long on certain things. So he would start like the Third Symphony, started quite a while before it was played. Same with the Fifth Symphony. So you don't know exactly.

[John McWhorter]

This is why it's sometimes a little off. Yeah.

[Maniacs]

But the Bach BWV is, I actually can say that is the Bach Werke Verzeichniss, which is the Bach catalog of works, and 1007. So the guy worked like a dog.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah. And there's a lot.

[Maniacs]

There's a lot. There's a lot. When he was engaged in Leipzig for the St. Thomas Church, I think he basically wrote a cantata every Sunday. And what?

[John McWhorter]

Cantatas?

[Maniacs]

Yeah, and there's 360 of them or something. It's unbelievable. So that's what the numbers are for. And most composers that we know have someone who cataloged them and it's named after them or what they call opus numbers. So if you have the composer himself, Beethoven, very much so would write down, this is my work. Number 27. There are two sonatas in it, number one and number two. And I'm dedicating them to Prince, so. And so.

[John McWhorter]

Right.

[Maniacs]

So that's what the catalogs.

[John McWhorter]

And opus means work, right?

[Maniacs]

Opus means work. Number means number and. Yeah. And one means one.

[John McWhorter]

You know, those labels are part of what makes the music seem a little forbidding to many people.

[Maniacs]

Yeah. And it absolutely shouldn't. You know, it's like Dewey decimals. It's nothing more than that.

[John McWhorter]

It doesn't mean that it's not good music.

[Maniacs]

Yeah. Or bad, either way. With us today is WQXR's morning host, Jeff Spurgeon. He's going to tell us about the game we'll play right now.

[Kai Wright]

Everyone's had a bad review at one point or another, including famous composers. We're going to read a bad review of a piece by a famous composer and we'll see if we can identify who wrote it. Here's the first review. I've been to the theater a few times and heard Wagner's Balkuren, From which I carried away memories of two or three glorious minutes and a whole ocean of boredom and utter emptiness. Is it Richard Strauss? Piotrlic.

[Maniacs]

Tch.

[Kai Wright]

Tchaikovsky, or Edward I. Koch?

[John McWhorter]

I can't imagine either Strauss or Tchaikovsky saying that in that way. That sounds like something Ed Koch would have said.

[Maniacs]

Oh, I think it's Tchaikovsky.

[John McWhorter]

Really?

[Maniacs]

That's my opinion. Yeah. I don't know what the answer is,

[John McWhorter]

you know, actually phrasing it as a whole ocean of boredom and utter empty. You know, Koch wouldn't have said that. You're right. So let's make it Tchaikovsky, because Strauss definitely wouldn't say.

[Maniacs]

Let's go with Tchaikovsky.

[John McWhorter]

Tchaikovsky. Yeah.

[Kai Wright]

The answer is Tchaikovsky.

[Maniacs]

Okay, good catch.

[Kai Wright]

Not a great fan of Wagner's operatic run Times Number two. Listening to the fifth Symphony of Ralph Vaughan Williams is like staring at a cow for 45 minutes. Is it Aaron Copland, Anthony Tomasini, or Roy Rogers?

[John McWhorter]

All right, Roy Rogers wouldn't have listened. I don't think we need to worry with that. And Thomasini wouldn't think that. Or if he did think it, he wouldn't say it.

[Maniacs]

No, it's gotta be Copeland.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah.

[Maniacs]

Yeah.

[Kai Wright]

The answer is Aaron Copland, who seemed to be incredibly bored by Vaughn Williams. Fifth Symphony.

[Maniacs]

Fun game.

[Kai Wright]

And the third review is of Liszt's B minor Piano Sonata. That is just meaningless noise. Not a single healthy idea anymore. Everything confused. A clear harmonic progression is not to be found here any longer. Is it Antonio Salieri, Clara Schumont. John Cage.

[Maniacs]

And this is about the B Minor Sonata of Liszt.

[John McWhorter]

Salieri is too early, right?

[Maniacs]

Yeah. He wouldn't have heard the B Minor Sonata.

[John McWhorter]

Cage would not be one to talk about meaningless noise.

[Maniacs]

Yeah, and he wouldn't have heard the B Minor Sonata, probably. It's gotta be Clara Schumann.

[John McWhorter]

She was alive and. Yeah, that's what she would have thought. Yeah.

[Kai Wright]

The answer is Clara Schumann. Unfortunate, because Liszt's Piano Sonata in B Minor was dedicated to her husband, Robert Schumann.

[Maniacs]

Yes, they exchanged dedications. The Fantasy by Schumann was dedicated to Liszt. And the sonata by Liszt was dedicated to Schumann.

[John McWhorter]

I haven't heard the B Minor Sonata or actually much Liszt. Actually. I need to fix that.

[Kai Wright]

Our final review is of the Dvorak Violin concerto. Although the work proves that you know the violin well, certain details make it clear that you have not played it yourself for some time. Was it yosef joachim, joshua bell, or jack benny?

[Maniacs]

I'd love it. I would so love it if it were Jack Benny.

[John McWhorter]

If there was a recording, wouldn't that be great? Well, that's what she said.

[Maniacs]

Mary, should we say Jack Benny? Just to be.

[John McWhorter]

Let's make it him. Yeah, let's make it Jack Benny.

[Kai Wright]

The answer is Yosef Joachim, the star violinist of Dvorak's day, who wasn't a fan of the concerto that Dvorak sent him.

[Maniacs]

No, no, it's Joachim. Of course. Of course it's Joachim.

[John McWhorter]

Yeah. Which is the only person who actually makes sense.

[Kai Wright]

That's all for our game today. Thank you, John and Manny, for playing.

[Maniacs]

John McWhorter, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a pleasure and a privilege.

[John McWhorter]

It couldn't have pleased me more.

[Maniacs]

I'm Maniacs. And this is Classical Music Happy Hour. Classical Music Happy Hour is supported in part by the Robert and Mercedes Eichholtz foundation and by Linda Nelson. Our production team includes Lauren Purcell Joyner, Eileen Delahunty, Laura Boyman, Elizabeth Nonemaker, David Norville, Christine Herskovitz and Ed Yim. Our engineering team includes George Wellington, Irene Trudell and Chase Kulpon. Classical Music Happy Hour is produced by WQXR in partnership with Carnegie Hall.