Climate concern is not the problem. Most people have it. What's missing is everything that turns concern into action - and understanding that gap turns out to be a lot more complicated than it looks.

This week, Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson sit down with Lorraine Whitmarsh, Professor of Environmental Psychology and Director of the Centre for Climate Change and Social Transformations at the University of Bath.

Together they dig into the psychology behind catastrophe apathy: why understanding an existential threat doesn't always lead to action, and what the research says actually moves people.

Lorraine shares real-world evidence - including renewable energy tariffs that shifted 90% of customers onto green power simply by making it the default - and explains why trusted everyday messengers, from hairdressers to taxi drivers, employers to community figures, often have more influence than expert voices in reshaping what feels normal.

The conversation also revisits an uncomfortable history: how the personal carbon footprint, popularised by BP in the early 2000s, reframed climate responsibility around individual choices rather than systemic change. A framing so powerful that even environmental organisations adopted it. Who benefited most from that shift is a question the movement is still grappling with.

If systemic change requires public consent, and public consent requires political will, and political will requires behaviour change - how do you break the climate Catch-22?

With thanks to the University of Bath.

Learn More:

🧠 Explore Lorraine Whitmarsh's research at the Centre for Climate Change and Social Transformations, University of Bath

🔌 Read about the Swiss renewable energy default study — the experiment that moved 90% of customers to green energy by changing a default setting

🗳️ Learn more about citizens' assemblies on climate and deliberative democracy in practice

🌍 Read the IPCC's work on demand-side solutions and behavioural change in its Sixth Assessment Report

🎤 Leave us your voice notes and questions for upcoming episodes on SpeakPipe

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Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Edited by Miles Martignoni

Planning: Caitlin Hanrahan

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

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Catastrophe Apathy: Why understanding the climate crisis isn’t enough