← Outrage Overload: Rethinking politics, division, and media
Outrage Overload: Rethinking politics, division, and media
83. Connection Is Slow, And That’s the Point – Tim Jones
00:38:25
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This podcast is part of the democracy group.
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Welcome to Outrage Overload, a science podcast about outrage and lowering the temperature. This is episode 83.
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It just showed me that, you know, regardless of how different people may be, regardless of what job you have or how old you are or what cultural background you're from, that everybody at the end of the day can connect over a meal and at a shared table. And I just really thought that was a beautiful message and just something that was really incredible for me to be a part of.
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Most of us talk about polarization in terms of media algorithms and politics, but what if the problem is simpler yet also more difficult than that? What if we've just forgotten how to sit down with people who aren't like us? And that's what we're going to talk about on this episode of the Outrage Overload podcast. I'm your host, David Beckmeier, and today's guest is the founder of a project that literally brings strangers together over dinner to rebuild social trust one table at a time.
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Hello, I am Tim Jones. I am chief table setter and executive director of Longer Tables, based in the Mile High City. And we believe that the Table is the most powerful place on the planet to rehumanize us and reconnect us.
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Tim's experiment offers a hopeful and surprisingly simple way to counter the forces pulling us apart. Stay with us.
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I had a wonderful time at the 5:28 table.
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This is a special thing that they
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do here, and I can't wait for the Mile Long table. Thank you.
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Keep going. Tim Jones, thank you so much for making time for our program.
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David, so good. Thank you for inviting me to share some of our stories and our passion around tacos and barbecue.
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Right?
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Not necessarily, but the general.
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You get the idea, right? Yeah. Everyone I talk to about this project, they're like, that sounds amazing. They really do that, that kind of thing. So I will say there's quite a bit of interest and I think if we could put some meat on the bones of that story, that would be great. I think you've said that longer tables exist because our social fabric is thinning. I think you've used that language. We all have these sort of assumptions. You know, a lot of times it's, oh, it's the algorithms or something else. Right. And with what you've learned, you know, is there some sort of thing that comes up often that feels like a misunderstood driver for this sense of disconnection?
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Yeah, I think, I think we're. We're very aware, most of us, of the inauthentic and the false connection that is happening on social media, it gives us a sense of connection. And I think the brain science shows us that our bodies are reacting as if it's real connection. So the dopamine hit that we get when we get a messenger ding or a text message or an Instagram, like even communicates to our brains and maybe even our hearts, depending on where you think all of this this lands is that I'm seen, I matter, I am connected to people. And I think that first piece of I am seen man, our brains trick us into this idea that hey, we matter, right? Our fundamental, this central existential question is do I matter in this, on this tiny speck going around the universe and could a like on my TikTok video or my Instagram communicate and my value? And I think for half a second it does. And then we need that to perpetuate and we need more and more and more as we know and that leaves us high and dry and actually at the end of the day more isolated than, than anything. Because at the end of the day it's, it's one like it's one follower, it's one message that is, is purely digital and not of truly any substance that connects us. So I think the, the imposter connections are everywhere in our world. Just even if you look at materialism of the fundamental lie of consumerism and marketing is if you buy this product, if you are, if you have a profile on LinkedIn, you are connected, you matter, you, you are consuming, thus you have a place and it's just not true.
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Right. You know, so you know, one thing about longer tables that seems to be, well, it seems to be a big factor in it is trying to sort of figure out, you know, sort of the practice and principles that make this into sort of a genuine connection. And I think a lot of people would be intimidated saying we're just going to pop you in front of a table of some people you don't know and go from there. And I know we talked before about one and I know that you have some rules and some people would say you'd have to have a lot of structure to this. And I don't think that's what you had today, but we can talk about that a little bit. But I know one thing you talk about, one of the rules is, is I believe I got it right, like you sort of can't use your sort of work role as sort of your identity. So tell us a little bit about that and how that plays into sort of trying to create an environment that maybe makes more genuine connections.
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Absolutely. Well, if you've traveled almost anywhere in the world, if you lead with what you do, you get a strange look because most of the world does not identify themselves through their jobs. Of course, in our rugged, individualistic Western mindset and posture, what we do defines us. And we all know that we lead with that question. What do you do in everyday life at conferences and headline, you are not what you do for a living vocationally. Sometimes it's an expression of a deeper sense of who we are and our true identity. But in a world where vocations change all of that, man, that actually creates separation. So when I say what I do, both people are quickly evaluating where we are on the social scale. And oftentimes when I introduce myself, I feel shame because I'm not higher on the social ladder than the other person, which instantly creates disconnection and separation between. Between me and this other person, which. Which is. Is tragic. That's how we are always like this assessment of can this person be abused? To me. So in a transactional culture, when we say, hey, welcome to the table, we have two rules. The first rule is there's no talk about work. There are no job titles. And everyone kind of panics for a half a second. You see it in their eyes. And number two, we want to experience the real you. So this, the table is not a place of performance or impressing anyone. The table, the invitation is to your humanity. And. And you can just show up as a human being. And David, I never think this is going to work. And those two boundaries, or invitations, we could call them rules as well, creates enough social emotional safety that people feel safe enough to be vulnerable, to take a baby step toward vulnerability and authenticity. Where someone might say, having a horrible week, like, I had to put my dog down last week. And tears, you know, you see the tears in the eyes. Like those two rules, what they do is instantly equalize the table. So there is no social hierarchy at the table any longer. It is flat. And all that's left is just the humanity. Bunch of humans sitting around. And so then we have conversation prompts at the table that ask questions about our childhood and memorable meals and the dreams that we have for our neighborhood or for our children. And people light up, David, because when was the last time you get to talk about your dreams that you have or a memorable meal from your childhood? So oftentimes people ask us, do you say there's no politics? Do you say there's no phones? We have not in 12 years. Said, no talk about politics, no phones. Because do people really want to be on their phones when there's a human being 30ft or 36 inches across the table from them, listening and asking them questions? So this is remarkably simple. But through those intentionalities of just no job talk, we are cutting to humanity. And the end product is we start rehumanizing people beyond their preferences, beyond their labels, beyond this transactional thing, which just creates a much deeper connection, even within 10 minutes.
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And I guess that would be part of the design of this system, those simple guardrails.
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Absolutely. And those are social, emotional safety guardrails that can be implemented at the table. It could be implemented anywhere, really.
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And these are random connections. Like you don't first do a survey and put certain people at certain tables or anything. Wherever you sort of show up, you sit down.
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Yeah. So when we set a table, whether it's a citywide table or it's inside a company, we start by choosing a cross section of leaders or individuals across that ecosystem. So leaders that normally want to connect, that are normally siloed, we don't cross those sectors usually. And we say, hey, invite five to 10 people from your world to the table. So that's how we get the humans there. Then we mix everyone up so you're sitting next to people that you would never, never sit with. I remember my first table, I was sitting across from a mid-70s African American woman. And I'm like, well, this is going to be interesting. And within three minutes we were laughing and found a commonality in our grandma's fried chicken recipes. So within three minutes. So I realized about three or four years into setting tables, especially these cross culture tables, where you're sitting across from someone from a different ethnicity, different class, different everything. And I'm like, oh my gosh. What we are doing is very challenging. This is high challenge, social, emotionally, you know, a social challenge, if you will. And again, back to those two rules and other things that we do. We do high invitation. So most people at our tables are personally invited. So, David, I would love for you to be my guest at this table. We're going to share dinner. You're going to eat next to people that you would never eat with. It's going to be great. Just trust me. I know it sounds kind of weird, but it's going to be great. And most people go for it, you know, and then when we invite them, they get to the table. Usually their name is written on a place card at that place. And when, David, there are Some people in our world that have never seen their name on a place card, especially people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, they don't, they don't go to these biggie, huge fancy weddings. And we see people get there and they see their name and you can tell, like, they're kind of taken back. So when they are personally invited and when they see their name on a place card, and then we say, hey, there's no job talk. And we just want to experience the real you. You have permission to just be. No performance man. Just relax and just be you. Holy mackerel. That is powerful and that, that connects. So it's. It. We never think it's going to work, but it is high challenge. But when you lay those, as you said, boundaries and, and we're intentional about creating a place where people feel safe and invited. They will go there. People, most people will go there and they'll be real. They'll open up. And you're, you're, you're basically, basically creating these baby blocks of trust of saying, hey. There is no hook here at the end of the table. We're not saying hey, okay, we're going to lock the doors and we're going to ask you to make a donation. That never happens. So we're, we're, we're, we're creating trust with people that it's okay that you're not going to be judged, you're not going to be ostracized. None of that matters. You are welcome as you are.
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That's awesome. So are you collecting any sort of data on this, like, qualitatively or otherwise about, like, what types of conversations occur, what kind of outcomes there are? You know, I'm thinking of a quote, and I don't remember who, and of course I don't remember the actual quote, but it's something about how, you know, if you participate in something like this and you find everyone boring, it's like you're the boring one. Right?
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Hate to tell you, but we do. We do. It's very important that we understand what we're doing and we always want to sharpen our approach, although in really humility and I suppose, grace, like, we really haven't changed our model much from the beginning. We've learned how to ask better questions at the table, so we're always refining those. But the central approach has really not changed with those two rules and some of these intentionalities like invitation and place cards and using people's names, that really hasn't changed. But we're always evaluating and we Want to know what happens? And I'm going to preface this by saying we are an awfully pragmatic bunch in America. I don't know if you've noticed this. And so when we apply to grants and so forth, they want to know what are the outcomes six months later. You know what? All of this, look at tables are slow cooked food, right? Humans are slow cooked. Relationships happen very slowly. So it's somewhat difficult to measure some of the long term impacts of this. And so one of the things I like to preach, we got to get over our pragmatism. That's what's getting us into trouble in the first place. Because people aren't projects. You don't transact with people. Relationships happen slowly like slow cooked food. So I just want to, I just want to offer that because I think that's, that's the table. And our methodology and our passion to set, to set more tables across our nation is, is communicating. We gotta slow down, man. We gotta slow down. Like life is not a project. You don't plug it into chat GPT and get an answer. That's not how relationships work. So I will say that back to your question. In evaluation, we absolutely, we measure before a table and after the table, people's sense of belonging, connection, the ability to kind of, kind of these skills of asking questions and being able to be vulnerable, those sorts of things, where do they feel like they belong? And then we measure those same things after the table and we definitely see a massive increase and even hopefulness for future connection and future relationship. David we hear from people that never sit at a table and they are reporting back that their sense of hope and their sense of future connection has been elevated because we simply have shown them a model of a place in our world where social connection is possible, where friendship is possible, where authentic belonging is possible. So, but then the storytelling from a week after a table or months later, we have, I like to joke that be careful who you open up to across the table. We had a couple meet, fall in love and have a baby from one of our tips. So I like to joke about that because that could happen. But you know, we, we have heard years of, of stories of people doing business deals together, collaborating people discovering their, their circle of best friends. We've, we've heard all of those things, so we're learning how to, to measure that better and follow up with, with people. But we, last thing I'll say on this is we've started asking questions especially around civic gatherings of hey, are you more likely to go knock on your neighbor's door. Are you interested more in civic volunteerism? And all of those numbers are over 50% of people that are even just simply open to the idea of walking across the street and knocking on their neighbor's door because they, because after experiencing the table, they realize, oh, this isn't difficult. Actually, people are super cool when you start talking to them.
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Yeah, that's awesome. So I know a lot of the bridge building efforts struggle with kind of the preaching to the choir problem. How does longer tables think about reaching people who maybe aren't already motivated to connect?
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Great question, great question. And it's getting harder and harder, by the way, just to. I don't know if you'll, you'll cover this, but there's studies showing that our general sense of loneliness is actually going down. In recent years, the research is showing loneliness. People aren't reporting as much loneliness. And so there's a thought that oh my gosh, maybe these initiatives are working. It actually is not. They're actually not working. What's happening is we as human beings are adjusting to solitude. So instead of going out and hanging with friends on Tuesday night, we're going home and binging Netflix for three hours. And that is, we have adjusted our social emotional for that to, to fill that bucket. Does that make sense?
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Yeah. I mean there's this word that was like a word of the year called parasocial. Where, okay. Where it's like, you know, we see these one way communications as a replacement for true connection.
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That's right. That's right. Absolutely terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. If we don't even have the felt need to go out and ask someone to coffee. Holy mackerel. We're seeing this with teenagers and young adults that aren't asking one another out because their social emotional needs are already filled and they don't have the skill set. Simon Sinek talks a lot about this. So bridge building, one of, I think the powerful things we do. This is a little bit of a repeat. But when we go into a company or a city, we find what we call like the people of peace. The people who understand the power of the table, who, when we pitch the idea, their eyes light up and they're like, I. Yes, I love that. You know, and those people are everywhere. So whether they're non profit leaders or civic leaders, or faith leaders or chamber leaders, I mean we, we work a lot with this chamber of commerces and those places are full of people who love this. So we find that because we're not going to Hit everybody. We find those people and we invite them into co creating, co setting the table. As hosts. As co hosts. Now those people have social credibility in their community that I can't get to. And so because they're there, they do the invitation into that community. And most people, not all will accept that invitation to a table. So just through kind of. Yeah that those levels of hosts who invite, we end up getting a true cross section of people at the table. And when you take this inside a company and you have a cross section of both positional leaders as well as our informal leaders, the executive assistant who's gathering people all the time, you get those people in the company, they invite five, six people from, from their circle of influence and people show up. So that is, that has worked remarkably well. And you end up getting the people who would, would often self select out. But we'll give it a, give it a try.
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I want to kind of get into a little bit about the practical sides of this. So, so yeah, you know, how many of these events do you, can you put together in a year and, and how many people get. You know, because people always are talking about scaling and, and are there any ideas like somehow making it repeatable? Like you could like have franchises or. I don't know how it might work.
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Absolutely.
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Tell us a little bit about, about that side of it.
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Absolutely. The table is a beautiful thing because it's super simple. Now there are like eight, eight intentionalities, eight, we call them eight competencies of table leadership. These are just kind, this is the secret sauce which, and we're fully open source man. We just want you to experience it and model it. But it's simple. This, this is not rocket science. Right. So it really comes naturally to people. They just gotta, gotta be modeled. They have to experience it and then they realize how powerful it is. Just because it's not complex doesn't mean it's not powerful or effective. So the table, once experienced it can, it can scale to any size literally as well organizationally. Like the table can be 10 people. It can be, you know, our longest table is 3,400 people.
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And because people, you hear a number like that, I'm sure people are going say what now? Did you just say 3400 people?
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400 people. I would not recommend setting a table for 3400 people. Lots of logistics. But, but David, it still works. The way we design the conversation around every eight foot table, you're still connecting with those, those four or five people around you. So it doesn't matter how Long the table is, it scales and the connection impact is still the same. So when, when people experience this, we teach them how to do it, they can take it and guess what? The table goes anywhere. There is no specific context that the table has to, has to work. It doesn't have to be downtown closing down streets. We've done that. It can go into the boardroom. A church can do this, A faith community can do this. A neighborhood. We have an entire campaign over individual people living in a neighborhood saying, I want to host a table. We give them a kit, we teach them how to, how to ask questions and the conversation prompts and they get eight neighbors together. We've had people do this across the nation and they love it. And once they've experienced it, it's very simple. It's, it kind of goes viral. People are like, oh, I can do this. Because most people are terrified to do this. They think it's really difficult. It's not. And once they see, oh, all I have to do is invite some people. We can do potluck and I could just set out a table and chairs in my yard. Well, I can do that. So this really goes anywhere. And we are, we are excited to build a kit. We've had cities across the nation reach out. We have companies reaching out, saying, hey, can you do this inside my company? And yes, there we've got a kit that, that will teach you all of the ethos, the strategy and, and fundamentally, at the end of the day, what really is simple leads to more sustained impact through kind of the baked in strategy of connecting leaders that are often siloed in a community or a company or even a neighborhood, connecting those leaders, they're cultivating relationship by setting this table. And then we're going to follow up and help off offer this leadership formation around. What does it look like to be a leader that sets tables? So we realized this a year ago looking at leaders, mostly inside companies, some civic leaders. I realized, oh, what those leaders are doing, they're setting a table, a figurative table. They're inviting people to just show up in safety, emotional safety, and just to be their whole selves and, and, and give them keys to the car where they have loyalty, they have ownership, they, they feel like they belong, they feel like they matter, they're important to the organization. That's a tape, right? And then you get everybody around that and say, hey, everybody belongs here. So I think what our work, where our work is going to make the biggest difference is we can't set tables in every city in America, there are leaders there to do that. They just need to experience it and, and do it. But what we can do is if we, if we reach 1000 leaders and teach them not only the competencies of what it is to set a table, the practical aspects of setting a real table, we're going to walk them into leading from a place of wholeness and true identity. So they are showing up in their fullness and their wholeness. And that is the deeper invitation to inviting people to show up in their humanity and their wholeness and not in transactional relationships, but in compassion, in love and service and all of those things.
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So that's awesome. So that, so it sounds like the first step is somebody would attend, you know, participate in a table. Right. And then, and if they think they want to be a leader and then once that happens, then you have these kits and tools. I got thinking while you were saying all that. You know, people in this space often talk about sort of the training the trainers, like I wonder how many levels of indirection you could do to where that you could start offloading even that first step, but that somebody could could, you know, sort of learn through a second organization or something.
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That's right. 100%. Modeling, modeling is, is key. And this is so connecting. I, I'm like, I, I joke. I'm like, did we put cocaine in the, in the water? Why are people so like, lit up and, and energized after this? And again, you don't need to energize everybody. It's, it's, you know, a handful of leaders inside a city. It can start with five people. I've seen it. It can start with three people in a, in a company culture who just start modeling this and doing this. And because it's so human, it can be replicated and adopted. So that is, that is the hope. And I think we know throughout world history, leaders set the bar. Leaders maintain culture, they create culture, they set the culture and everything follows that. That is the definition of leadership. Right.
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And, and, and we can find out all this information at, at your website.
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Absolutely. Yep.
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Longertables.org longertables.org that's awesome. I wanted to close on a sort of a jump to another place just to kind of wrap up.
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Sure.
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You know, you've been doing this a while. You've got a lot of, you know, sort of, even if it's more intuitive than maybe analytical or data driven, What gives you, you know, some sort of concrete beyond tropes sort of, and beyond just like a high level emotional kind of thing. What gives you some confidence that we can rebuild this social trust at scale?
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Wow. I mean, I'm just going to be honest, David. I don't know if we can. I know in my own life what it takes to experience change or growth or transformation is crisis and suffering. And I get emotional because I know that's the only thing that's, that's helped me grow in my life and has forced me to say, okay, stop. How do I rewire this? What, what new beliefs do I need to adopt? Because this isn't working. And it's only crisis that does that for human beings. So I'm, I'm, I'm worried to some degree. What level of crisis are we going to have to hit? You know, we thought for a moment the pandemic would do it. It didn't. It didn't. It lasted for a few minutes, but it wasn't enough. And so I'm concerned about that. The data, the science, there's 30 years of research that this work matters, that this is anything but a waste of time. This. Harvard has done years of studies around workplace culture, belonging and connection. And this is long before dei. This is simply belonging, like caring for your people, that the, the, the science is all there. You retain your people. They are much more engaged, they collaborate, they innovate if they feel welcome in their wholeness at work. And I don't think we need 30 years of research to. We know that. We just know that's true. Right. So Vivek Murphy, Surgeon General, former Surgeon General, came out in 23 with the epidemic of isolation, loneliness. All of his research is scientifically backed that we know there are physical consequences to isolation and loneliness and polarization. We know that that leads to early death. Now we're connecting it to dementia, we're connecting it to all of these things. Heart disease, obesity, it all goes through the roof. And I don't need to read 300 studies on that. I get it. I get that that's what happens and that that is the consequence of the world that we're finding ourselves in. So it's an answer that we don't want, but it's, it is. How do we humble ourselves for a minute and just tell the truth about what's going on, that we don't have the answers, that we are in need of help, that we maybe not have it figured out, and that maybe we're selfish a little bit in, in trying to fulfill this individualistic, individualistic dream that we were fed for so many decades of. It's all about you. Right. Maybe it's not about all about me. So I, I pray that it doesn't take a larger crisis than the pandemic to help us realize. And we're seeing a lot of, lot of potential and hope in these younger generations that aren't just aren't buying it. They're not buying like because there is no economic path anymore that, that has completely changed in our country where there isn't, you go to college, you land a great paying job and then you're retiring at, you know, 60 years old. That, that's gone. So maybe that will be enough crisis for us to realize mattering purpose. Real authentic social connection is what we've been longing for all this time and that we're going to start prioritizing this. And I think at the end of the day it's going to be a leadership issue. It's going to be leaders that hopefully rise to the top and show us the way.
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Right. But maybe not the leaders that sort of call themselves leaders today.
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It's the healthy whole leaders. And I think as as many are talking about right now, it, it is all of this is going to move back to the local focus, the local movement, the hyper local that, that we cannot depend on this massive system to meet all of our needs. It's getting more and more challenging all the time. But, but can I make a difference? Absolutely. In my neighborhood, Yeah. I can make a difference in my, the lives of my 10 closest friends. Absolutely. I can make a difference at the grocery store by actually asking the employee about their lives and getting to know them. So this, this back to local movement I absolutely love. It's like going back in time of like, hey, let's, let's get, let's get to know our neighbors at the end of the day.
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Well, Tim, I really appreciate that authentic answer, you know, and not trying to come up with some sort of song and dance about how wonderful the world might be because it is a serious problem. I know for some of us when we talk about what that crisis was, for some of it, for some of us it was hitting our outrage overload, you know, that kind of thing. Right. So I think that applies to some of our listeners as well.
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Yeah. The only place that that goes is separation. Only will will go to more separation. War only leads to more war. So at what point are we just going to say like surrender? I surrender. This is not working. I'm not happy, I'm anxious, I'm depressed and I'm just going to start being honest about it. So, you know, in JFK words, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. So we have to start being honest because the fear, the fear of the other, the fear of what happens if I'm alone in life, we have to start. I think that's also part of the starting point, is let's just start being honest with each other. And I think we're going to find some beautiful commonalities and connections if we start telling the truth and being honest with one another.
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B
Yeah, that's great. Well, Tim Jones, thank you so much. I really love this interview and I think this is going to make a great episode.
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Love it. David, thanks for what you're doing and inviting truth telling and conversation into our world.
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Thank you, Tim. Take care.
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Take care.
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B
That is it for this episode of the Outlook Outrage Overload podcast. For links to everything we talked about on this episode, go to outrage overload.net outrage overload is a Connors Institute podcast. The Connors Institute for Nonpartisan Research and Civic Engagement at Shippensburg University works to disseminate high quality nonpartisan information to the American public around issues of societal well being, democracy promotion and news literacy. If you found this episode valuable, please share it or leave a review. It really helps. Thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.