84. I Bought a Bar: An experiment in bridge-building - K Scarry

Summary

Podcast Summary: Outrage Overload, Episode 84 – “I Bought a Bar: An Experiment in Bridge-Building” featuring K Scarry

---

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking episode, host David Beckemeyer sits down with Kay Scarry, a former professional bridge-builder and current bar owner in Washington D.C. Together, they explore Kay’s experiment: using a neighborhood bar as a “third space” to cultivate lower-barrier opportunities for meaningful, cross-divide conversation, connection, and practicing civic engagement. They delve into the messy realities of bridge-building “in the wild,” discuss the limits and misconceptions of the field, and offer both personal reflection and practical strategies for fostering genuine relationships across difference in everyday spaces.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Formal Bridging Work to a Bar: Why Make the Shift?

• Kay describes her background in traditional “bridge-building” roles and how such efforts often failed to attract anyone but already-motivated “usual suspects.” (01:52)

• She explains her drive to “decompartmentalize” the work, embedding it in places where people already congregate naturally, like bars and coffee shops.

  "I'm trying to live the answer to: How might we create a lower barrier to entry for folks to experience the kind of relationships that are possible in spaces that they're already going to?"
  — Kay Scarry (01:52)

2. Practicing Difficult Conversations in Everyday Life

• Both Kay and David note how quickly “reactivity” and defensiveness can show up, even among trained bridge-builders.

  “How rapidly a conversation can degenerate… Even people that are sort of trained… including myself, we can be sort of caught up in it.”
  — David Beckemeyer (03:32)

• Kay emphasizes normalizing the “clunky” and imperfect moments in conflict rather than panicking or withdrawing.

  “So much of what I find myself trying to embody… is it's going to be clunky and we don't have to panic about it.”
  — Kay Scarry (04:21)

• Moments as simple as giving and receiving customer feedback are seen as chances to strengthen relational skills, honesty, and nuance.

3. Navigating “Advocacy vs. Neutrality” as a Space Host

• Kay shares her approach to holding space for diverse groups, including protestors, National Guard, and vulnerable community members, without erasing her own convictions.

  “A common misconception in the bridge building world is that we're finding common ground. I think common humanity feels like a different aim.”
  — Kay Scarry (09:13)

• She stresses the responsibility that comes with her social position and the need to welcome, but also actively engage, all kinds of guests—including federal workers and protestors—while remaining aware of how some presences signal threat to others.

4. Making Deep Conversation Easier (“Conversation Starters”)

• Kay outlines practical strategies for making dialogue easier for both staff and bar patrons, such as “conversation starter” cards at tables to lower the vulnerability of initiating meaningful conversation.

  “We're about to launch having… a conversation starter at every table… taking the vulnerability off other people so they can try something.”
  — Kay Scarry (11:59)

5. Realistic Limits—Dispelling ‘Naivete’ and the “Can’t We All Just Get Along” Myth

• The “bridge-building” field is often accused of naiveté; Kay rejects the idea that the goal is simply “just getting along.”

  “I feel like my whole role as the facilitator was to say: It's going to be clunky, and that's evidence that we're trying, not that we're failing.”
  — Kay Scarry (14:22)

• She highlights that real relationship work includes embracing conflict, owning one’s piece of the mess, and not expecting superficial harmony.

  “I wish the bridging field had a little more willingness to own their piece of the mess, as my colleague Maya would say.”
  — Kay Scarry (20:33)

6. Sustaining Yourself in High-Conflict Work

• Kay speaks about her chaplain background and the restorative power of daily journaling, weekly counseling, and community support:

  “I also have a good community of people… they're really my lifeline, you know, to talk through the moments that I've messed it up or… that I don't have hope in it.”
  — Kay Scarry (18:22)

• She finds energy not just in outcomes, but in “the being in it and the attempt.”

7. The Real Value of Diverse Conversations and ‘Proximity’

• Both Kay and David recount the personal growth gained from conversations across divides, emphasizing the importance of seriously engaging with perspectives far from one’s own.

  “I have a fairly active group of listeners that are different from me on… my political leanings… Those are the most valuable listeners I have.”
  — David Beckemeyer (30:03)

• Kay uses examples from her work as a prison chaplain and experience in coal-mining towns to illustrate how “proximity” fundamentally shapes perspectives and empathy.

  “I want to take other people's perspective seriously… how much of our perspective is built on what we're proximate to.”
  — Kay Scarry (34:41)

8. What Success Looks Like for a Third-Space Bar

• Success is less about measurable outcomes, more about fostering spaces where patrons “can exhale, where they’re seen, and cared for,” and where belonging is palpable.

  “Success… looks like people leaving our space feeling seen and like they were cared for or like they were connected to somebody else in the community.”
  — Kay Scarry (35:18)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth of ‘getting along’:

  “That just getting along idea… is kind of superficial. It's… well, that means we won't talk about hard things.”
  — David Beckemeyer (25:52)

• On friendship despite disagreement:

  “One of my dearest friends is a Trump voter… He's my favorite conversation partner… our relationship is not fragile. We don't dance around things. We go there.”
  — Kay Scarry (26:49)

• On the danger of bridge-building as self-absolution:

  “At its worst, what the bridging world has done… is given people the ability to say, ‘See, I'm not the problem. I've sat down with these people who think differently…’ That's something we have to reckon with.”
  — Kay Scarry (21:40)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:52] – Kay describes her motivation for using a bar as a bridge-building space.
• [04:21] – How to normalize “clunky” moments in real-world conflict.
• [09:13] – On advocacy, neutrality, and the limits of “common ground.”
• [11:59] – Practical efforts underway: training staff, conversation cards, and modeling curiosity.
• [14:22] – Accepting limits; rejecting simplistic “let’s just get along” framing.
• [18:22] – Kay’s methods for emotional self-care and sustainability.
• [20:33] – Problems with “can’t we all just get along?” as the field’s goal.
• [25:52] – Distinguishing deep relationship from mere avoidance of conflict.
• [30:03] – The value of learning from disagreements and diverse feedback.
• [34:41] – Proximity, empathy, and taking others seriously.
• [35:18] – What bridge-building success looks like in everyday life.

---

Episode Takeaways

• Bridge-building happens best in everyday, accessible spaces—not just in formal settings or among self-selected participants.
• Conflict is inevitable and should be normalized, not seen as failure.
• Taking others’ perspectives seriously, especially outside one’s own bubble, is key to personal and social growth.
• Success is not perfect harmony but creating stable, welcoming “landing places” for belonging and honest conversation.
• Bridge-building practitioners must own their piece of the collective “mess” and beware the trap of self-absolution.
• It’s okay—and necessary—to set boundaries, embrace self-care, and play the “long game” in this work.

---

Transcript

[A]

This podcast is part of the democracy group.

[B]

Welcome to Outrage Overload, a science podcast about outrage and lowering the temperature. This is episode 84.

[A]

I know a woman who literally purchased a bar in downtown D.C. because she was concerned about the lack of third spaces in her community or her neighborhood. And she's trying to run it that way. And so it's not so much what's the space as who are the people that are going to make this happen.

[B]

That's how I found out about our guest today. When I heard this, I knew I needed to speak to that person. Kay Scarry spent seven years working in traditional overtly bridge building spaces. She eventually left that formal work to imagine how to create lower barriers to entry for folks to experience meaningful relationships in the places they already go. Naturally. Now she is living out the answer to that curiosity as a bar owner in Washington D.C. let's get right into it. So I wanted to kind of start with, you know, in this bridge building space. And I think we even talked about this a little bit, that some of these efforts kind of attract, I think you, you called it sort of the usual suspect sort of people already motivated to do this work. And so, you know, sort of is that where the idea of a bar came in? I mean, is there something about a bar or coffee shop that, that that maybe can do something that these formal civic or institutional spaces can't do?

[A]

I think that's my question that I'm trying to live the answer to. I had spent seven years working in a really traditional, like focused, overtly bridge building space and yeah, noticed the usual suspects had some curiosity about the way I frame it is what's the back door entry to, to some of the most important conversations of our time, especially around some of the issues that I think many people would love if they were able to embody them but don't know how to articulate it or the language that we've used culturally around some of the bridge building work, or just relational work in general has become laden with baggage. And so yeah, I left that work formally to try and imagine into how might we create a lower barrier to entry for folks to experience the kind of relationships that are possible in spaces that they're already going to. I would say it's both about not engaging the usual suspects for sure. It's also about decomartmentalizing the work. To me that I also found that some of the work I was doing that I loved, but also it was hard for people to bridge it from, from the seminar, the experience, the dinner, into embodying it beyond kind of the designated spaces where this is where we bridge. The organization I worked for did a really, really good job of that, but that was some of my curiosity too. And going out on my own was how actually do we decompartmentalize the work of civic engagement, of relationship building across lines of identity or ideological difference to exist in the places people go really naturally,

[B]

you know. And, you know, something that I think about, you know, in this, I'm curious about how that's going so far, like how that's working. But like, I've seen the. I've been witness to these things falling apart pretty fast. Like how rapidly a conversation can degenerate. And out in the wild, I think about that and then. But because I've even seen it among people that are sort of trained or have some experience or have studied this, you know, kind of thing, it's how quickly, including myself, we can be sort of caught up in it. Like, I'm now. I'm now react. I'm now reacting like I'm not actually doing all the things I talk about all the time and I've trained for and all these things. I've lost it. I'm now reacting. So I'm curious, like, you know, how do you, like, are you fearful about that or are you concerned about that? Like this. I've. We're doing this out in the wild, huh?

[A]

That's a great question. My husband will maybe. Actually he's too nice to tell you this. But what I will tell you is that my problem is in a moment where there's heat or conflict that I've like gotten reactive, I'm quick to be like, but I do this work, so it must be you that's the problem. That's my work to sort out. Yeah. I mean, I think so much of what I find myself trying to embody individually and to offer in our space is it's going to be clunky and we don't have to panic about it. I think there are so many moments we get caught, taken out of a moment of conflict or reactivity by suddenly being like meta. Reacting to the fact that there's conflict or that there's reactivity instead of normalizing, that part of our being in relationship is going to be clunky. And so I try to really offer a space or even a presence for myself and for others that is. Oh yeah, that's happening again. Where we don't know exactly how to move through that. We don't have to panic about it, but we can acknowledge it and then make some deliberate decisions about how we want to move through it. I think in a bar space that looks like a lot of different things, it's hard for me to figure out the line about not being really. I don't want to be heavy handed around, hey, want to have a conversation about democracy. And I also own a bar in Washington D.C. so I take seriously how people see me as the bar owner interact with National Guard who come in to use our restroom, or how I navigate when the presence of National Guard means that immigrants in our community feel unsafe. Even though National Guard is not in D.C. right now, going after immigrants, like there still is a signal of their presence that makes folks feel uneasy. How do you do the tension around belonging in a space when you want to welcome everyone and not some people's presence makes other people feel unwelcome. And so, you know, I think about it in that way all the way down to like, how do we engage customer feedback if they don't like a beverage they've gotten? You know, I even think that is the opportunity to practice. You know, I can't read your mind. And I want you to have a good experience. And you're giving me feedback isn't personal. It's helping me give you the experience I want you to have. You know, even little moments like that feel like it's building us the musculature to be more honest, to be more deliberate, to kind of live into the nuances that I think they exist already in many of our public spaces. I just think we don't culturally have the tools to know how to move through them. And I find myself overwhelmed, energized, exhilarated by the chance to practice it in my own particular context. Yeah, I think it's so much about listening, taking people seriously, humanizing people understanding what they're saying and. And also there's so many layers of this skill. Like, there are also moments that I know I'm someone's target because I just had a hellacious day and I'm a really easy place for them to swing and not me, but like the experience of getting the wrong beverage when everything else has gone wrong in their day. How frequently does that translate? You know, I'm thinking a lot about, I'm in a techstart right now with a group of folks who are responding to Ice in our own town. And, you know, we're recording this the day after the shooting in Minnesota. And it was so interesting to watch people process where we go from here. And how do you know, like, how much of that is just grief rage coming out in the way that it does that just needs some space. How much of it is a course. Correct. You know, I think that's also a piece of. It is the skill to know that, you know, the iceberg analogy, like all the other things we bring into every single conversation we're having that aren't actually about the moment itself, but are about all the things that that moment allowed us to surface. You know, And I think that is also something you can more easily see in a customer service space. Like, oh, they're just having a bad day. That's really hard when you're in a kind of gridlocked in a personal or highly charged political conversation.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Well, and that brings up another thing that, you know, we're all. Everyone in sort of the bridge building space in one way or another has to always kind of negotiate this advocacy versus, you know, sort of neutrality kind of idea. Right. And being a. Keeping your reputation and your. Of being a bridge builder, but still, like, we still have things we care about. Right. And how do we draw that line about advocacy? So how do you do that with the bar? Like, does it take know, do you host advocates and do you host. Do you. Do, you know, you know, I don't know, protests or, you know, that kind of thing or organizing. I mean, how do you. How do you. That's another tightrope. You kind of have to walk.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think a common misconception in the bridge building world is that we're finding common ground. Actually don't. I think common humanity feels like a different aim. And I don't. I think that although I too fall into the trap of things would be better if everyone thought like me at my best in deep relationship with people, I realize how much I need other people's perspectives and the perspectives that I think are there's no way we're going to align. I usually. If I can suspend my own impulses, I usually can learn something or sharpen my own perspective by being in those relationships. You know, I think the other thing that's true is I am a white American citizen who is cisgendered heterosexual. You know, like, I don't embody a lot of the identities that are at threat right now. And so I take that really seriously that that means I can have some kinds of conversations with folks that not everybody is safe to. That feels really. It makes me feel a great sense of responsibility. Yeah. So a couple more practical things around, you know, who Are we welcoming? How are we doing that? I don't think people wonder where I stand. You know, we've done a few things like pop up chaplaincy, like non religious chaplaincy hours for federal workers for folks who are kind of on the front lines of protests. We've done some things like that. We have offered our space pretty regularly to folks who are protesting right now. You know, we try to be, yes. People in our space for community groups that are organizing, that are trying to take good care of their neighbors. Certainly it comes up like there's a question certainly even amongst our team of should we be letting the National Guard use the restroom in our space? What, what's the impact of that? And right now my answer is yes, and let's engage them when they're in the building. You know, But I don't feel like the bridge building work requires me to tone down the advocate part of me or the part of me that has, like very strong opinions. You know, I think it requires me to sometimes do the work of saying, this is where I land. And that doesn't mean I don't have space for where you land, even if it's in a completely opposite space. I feel like that is the bridge I'm often making of. Just because we aren't completely misaligned here doesn't mean I don't have room to hear you, to honor the dignity in you and to take your perspective really seriously.

[B]

Mm. Well, I think I heard you speak about the idea of helping, you know, ordinary people learn how to ask questions better, and I'm curious about that. I mean, how do you go about that and how's it working?

[A]

Yeah. So I have two ways I'm thinking about that. One is how do we teach our team? How do we kind of, you know, model it? I don't, I don't think I'm the most heavy handed around. This is what I want you to ask or how I want you to, you know, show up. And we do try to cultivate a team of people who also really know how to take care of our guests. Well, I think some of that is curiosity is listening. And so we feedback that a lot with our team. Um, we're about to launch having. We're playing with a couple possibilities, but we're about to launch having like a conversation starter at every table that's we're thinking about either rotating it every week or having, you know, a set that people can pick from. I think a lot of it is taking the vulnerability off other people so they can try Something. So it's really different to try and start a kind of deep conversation with a friend. There's a vulnerability to that that, that is not the same as I'm asking you the question that's on the card on our table. Suddenly I'm the one who takes on your vulnerability, if you will. They can point to. I'm not doing this because I'm putting myself on the line. I'm doing this because I was prompted to. And that kind of lowers the barrier to entry to people, to have a different kind of connection. I think about questions like what do you wish other people knew about what it's like to be you? Or things like that. What's something that if you had five minutes uninterrupted to talk about whatever's on your mind, what's something you wish you had the space to share? And let me give you those five minutes. So we're thinking about giving folks things like that. Either them existing on our menu, on tables, so that we can again let folks either opt in or not to the kinds of conversations we hope to happen in our space.

[B]

Yeah, there are always sort of limits to this work, you know, and we have to be realistic. I think a lot of people accuse many of us working in the space of being just naive. You know, you just expect people to get along all the time or whatever, whatever other reason being naive. So it's kind of another. I guess I keep talking about tightropes, but it's kind of another one we have, we have to walk is accepting our limits. Like we know it's not always going to work, that kind of thing. So maybe you can talk about that a little bit.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'm having two reactions to what you said. One is definitely around accepting my own limits. One certainly is around the misconception that this is the work of just getting along. I do think that's a piece of this. I think about. I did a dialogue a couple years ago for a university talking about Israel, Palestine, and I feel like my whole role as the facilitator in that conversation was to say it's going to be clunky. And that's evidence that we're trying, it's not evidence that we're failing. And I think that, you know, again, people react so much to why can't we just get along? Or why are we fighting or why is there conflict? They experience it as failure. And I think to be a non anxious, steady presence in the face of something that feels really heated and to say, you know, this is just part of it is really important, a really important piece of this work. I feel that in sharing a bar space, we share with the theater and then we share with a coffee shop as well. The coffee shop operates in the morning behind the bar. Then there's a couple hours where no one's operating and we operate behind the same space in the evening. That has plenty of opportunity in the bar space to talk about what it is. Even with guests, they ask questions about what's it like to share space. And I can say things like, well, every relationship requires concessions, but. And our negotiations about what are the things we're willing to relinquish in order to do something together. And that's just part of it. And that is we believe that working in this space together is something better than we could have done in a space where we had free reign on our own. And so there's opportunity all the time to dialogue with folks about this. If we are just deliberate about how we're storytelling about being in that space. You know, I think for my own limits, some of it is. It's funny that I want to self reflect about this a little bit more after this conversation. I don't really. I think about it as we are a piece in the constellation of what's needed to heal our country right now. We do need people who are harder lines about who is and isn't welcome, or harder lines about what is and isn't acceptable. We need people who are agitators. We need people who are on the front lines of protests. I think I feel like we're a space that can really catch people. It can be a processing space. And the limits to that are, in order to do it, there are times that I don't push somebody beyond where they're able to go, even if I want them to get further than they are. You know, I also think a lot about playing a long game, you know, so if we have regulars who watch me interact with the National Guard every week for a year, that's a totally different experience than let's sit down for an hour and talk about the National Guard. And so I try to trust in a long game in that way. You know, also just being a human in the world in this moment, there are plenty of days I show up to the bar unwilling to engage, exhausted, overwhelmed, annoyed. And I try to also play a long game that way. So, you know, I had that experience this week where I saw one of our regulars who the last time I saw him, I was just in no good shape. And. And it felt important to own that, to say, I'm so glad to see you. Last time you were here, I was in some sort of way, and I want to just own that. And I didn't have the chance. I wasn't able to engage with you then. But I am wondering how you are. You know, that felt. That feels also like it normalizes what it is to be fumbling through this moment together.

[B]

Well, and that makes me also think about how you kind of protect yourself. Like, what are your limits or guardrails so that you don't become emotionally overwhelmed.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm a chaplain by trade, so I do feel like I had to learn to not take it all on. Like, I do feel like I have built the musculature around what is and isn't mine to own. I have my own. You know, I'm a daily journaler. I try to have spaces where I can put on a page everything I'm feeling, thinking, experiencing. I try to stay in good touch with myself. And I see a counselor every week. You know, I feel like I have. I also have a good community of people. You know, one of the gifts of having done this work professionally is I have a. A dear group of people who also know what it is to live and breathe this work, even if their setting is different. And they're really my lifeline, you know, to talk through the moments that I've messed it up or to talk through the moments that it feels impossible or that I don't have hope in it, you know, all of those really normal parts of, again, fumbling through this moment, I think those are things that keep me steady. I also am a person who has a. A little bit of an optimistic view. I have a lot of belief in possibility, in the power of people connecting. And I also have a big bias towards action. So the being in it and the attempt fuels me more than it drains me. And so that helps for sure.

[B]

That's awesome. Yeah. You know, like you said, I think, and it's important to note that all of us doing this work are like, one part of this larger. I think, like the guy and Heidi Burgess call it, like, this massively parallel work going on. And I think we have to keep that in perspective. No one of us is going to sort of magically solve all these problems. And maybe that ties in a little bit to this question, which is, I was thinking I was going to ask you, with your real world experience here, in doing this in real communities, you know, have you come to see some. I don't know, some perspective or some maybe a misconception about this work that you wish you could just get everybody to let go of.

[A]

It's a great question. I feel like there's a lot of them. I mean, I do think that can't we all just get along? I also think that that really runs rampant in the field. I think that. And I do sometimes wish the bridging field had a little bit more of a willingness to own their piece of the mess, as my colleague Maya would say. I think there's been a lot of can't we all just get along energy in the bridging world. That isn't really the way that relationships work. And I think even as we've moved away from that some in the last couple of years, I do think some of the bridging work field started from that desire. And we haven't reckoned with what that cost, what that required. You know, I think about the other word that gets thrown around is like pluralism, which also feels like, can't we all just get along? And I don't think that it is that at its core. But I do, I think as much as I try to ask people in conversation and relationship to be accountable to what's theirs to own that they've contributed to the current moment that we're in, I try to do that my own self. And so I think longings for the field. Yeah, I wish. And you asked me what I wish we could get rid of misconception wise. And I do think that's the can't we all just get along as the goal here or the idea that, you know, I think a lot about at its worst, what the bridging world has done at its worst. And this isn't the only true thing about it is given people the ability to say, see, I'm not the problem. I've sat down with these people who think differently, who look differently, therefore I'm not really the issue here. And I think that's something we have to reckon with, you know, and I. Because I don't think we live in a moment that culturally we're sophisticated in doing our own ownership of the things we contribute to the mess that our country is in right now. And so I both want to dispel the idea that bridging is can't we all get along? And I want the field to be more accountable to owning their piece of the mess.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And at the individual level and also sort of collectively. So what's a better framing than can't we all just get along.

[A]

I'm worried this is going to sound trite, but we need each other. Communities that are in good relationship are healthier in a number of different ways. You know, we have a loneliness crisis and folks need places they can belong and be seen and where we can be in process to figure out how to be in good relationship with our neighbors and with our own selves. I think being a good neighbor really matters. I think we're in a moment historically where we have a lot of options of who we opt into relationship with. That's fairly new. You think about religious space. Many years ago, folks were going to congregations that were proximate to them. And so you had to figure out how to do relational work with people you're going to stay in relationship with. Now it's really easy to kind of have one foot out the door in our relationships at all times. And I think that erosion of being in relationships we can trust and where we are seen and able to be messy with one another has seismic impacts on even public health. On. You see studies done on our relationship. Our communities that are more relationally connected had a lower amount of COVID deaths. You see that as have a lower response time to natural disaster. I think the frame to me is we need each other and we need to figure out how to be in relationship even and especially when it gets hard and when it's complicated and when we feel like we're at an impasse. And you know, I think we are. I think about. I read an article this morning about a Minnesota man who every day stands outside his Somali neighbor's door as Ice knocks on her door and is like, I'm here too. I want you to know you're not alone here. Like, we need each other. And I think that doesn't. Needing one another and knowing our need of one another also counters American hyper individualism. And I don't think it requires needing to get along in the ways that we think about it because often that getting along is a really shallow sense of relationship and not the kind of deep relationship that feels steady and secure in a lot of different ways.

[B]

Yeah, and that's what I'm glad you went there because that's what I was going to sort of push on a little bit or push back on, maybe even is how is that what you're describing? Not just getting along? And it sounds like what you're really. When you're talking about, you know, the sort of just get along idea. Often it's kind of superficial. It's Kind of. Well, that means we won't talk about hard things.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, it's. I, we. We're fine because we know. Because we dance around each other. We know what not to say. And I just reject that. I mean, there are certain relationships, of course, that are going to be that way, but to have no cross relationships where you can really get into it about and take seriously. I mean, I think that's the other piece is to take seriously someone else's perspective. You know, I think about. I think it's really hard for people to face moral complexity in their own selves and in one another. I think that's a piece of, of this too. And so I think some of what is happening is we're looking for ways to put ourself to make ourselves not morally complicated, you know, and yeah, one of my dearest friends is a Trump voter who still stands by Trump. And that is complicated for me. I don't know if I'm supposed to put my perspective out there, but we've probably already gotten there a little bit in this conversation. It's hard for me to understand. He's my favorite conversation partner and we go there and like, we wrestle it out and we don't usually. And I have to take his perspective seriously. I always learn something from him. It's not always something that changes my perspective by any means. He's also a person who. We've really done life together and he's one of my safest people because I am not. Our relationship is not fragile. We don't dance around. We don't dance around things. We go there and he doesn't require me to shift and I don't totally require him to shift. On my best days, sometimes I wish he would, but I think that can't we all just get along? Often looks like dancing around or it looks like fragility of relationships that, you know, the other impact of that is I think that the sexiness of a cancel culture is I can jump in because I understand because I'm trying so hard to make sure I'm not the one who's canceled, you know, that the erosion of relationships that is. At any moment, I could step on a landmine that makes me outcast for my community. You know, that's cancel culture at its worst. Also. That's not the only story of it. It's at its worst. But I think the fragility of relationships where we can't go there, where it's hard and complicated, means we are walking on eggshells elsewhere. And I don't think that that makes any of us individually feel steady either.

[B]

Right. And I, and I think something you mentioned there, and I also want to point out that, I mean, sometimes that's as good as it gets. Like with certain relationships, you know, that dancing around it may be as good as you can have and that's fine. But it's, you know, when you can go deeper, you're definitely going to get more value out of that.

[A]

When I think it's a, I think everyone needs some relationships where you can go there. I also don't think that means find, if you are of my political ilk, find your Trump voter friend. I don't actually. That's not what I'm saying either. I think the other thing that is something the field could do differently is to acknowledge diversity in seemingly homogenous groups, you know, to the idea that everyone who is, who votes a certain way is aligned. And, you know, I often found myself when I was working in this professionally, more overtly, I found people would call me and say I'm of this identity group or this ideological group. Can you help me find someone who's not to connect with? And actually, I think so often what's called, what we could, what's required of us is to go deeper with the people right in front of us and to find the places that actually we have a lot of dissonance to, you know, that there's none of us are, none of us are a monolith. And so how do we actually practice some of these skills with the people with whom we presume we are just aligned?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. You know, and I'll say on this, you know, I don't want to harp on this forever, but I'll say it. I know from my personal experience that, you know, these conversations that I have with these people that you might call devil's advocate type conversations or whatever that give me a new perspective. You know, I have a fairly active, like it may not be the majority of my listeners, but I have a fairly active group that is of listeners that are different from me on the, in my political leanings. And they're the most valuable listeners I have in terms of feedback. Right. Those are the ones I feel like I've moved far. I've learned more and grown more from the feedback from that segment, both listeners and also just in my real life, in my regular life, outside of the show. Those are the conversations that in retrospect, like you say, I've grown the most from those relationships and those conversations and had I not had those and just lived in a bubble all the time. I'm really not growing, I'm not going anywhere.

[A]

I think so much of it is about taking people's perspective seriously. You know, when it's easy, I think it's really easy to dismiss other people as an. Or to sling insults like uneducated or, you know, lack of empathy. And I just don't. I just can't settle for that. I think there are so. I think a lot about. When I was. I worked as a prison chaplain like eight years ago.

[B]

Oh, we have a whole nother episode.

[A]

And I think a lot about. I worked in the mental health unit and we had this office who was the most kind, generous person who I watched like wince as he put. As he had to put people in solitary confinement. So one day I had the conversation with him. I said, you know, help me understand, like, it's clearly this is not a job you want. And you know, you hear people who say things like, just don't take those jobs. It's a really easy thing to say. Well, he did not get into it. Right. And the prison in that community employed more than half, had more than half of the jobs in that community. He was caregiving for a parent. And so he was saying, you know, I could get a job in another city that commute time cuts down on my time to caregive. Like, I can't make my life work that way. When you realize that also we live in a society that set us up to have to have to make moral decisions like that. Again, moral complexity. In a society that's set up in a certain way, you have to start taking people seriously, you know. So, okay, so what does it mean for me to. In a very imperfect system, I want this person to be healthy as he has to exhibit power over folks who are incarcerated. And I want him to do that in a way that's really healthy and grounded and human. There are limits to that, you know, But I think about that too. You know, you look at, I. I think about folks, I was saying this the other day. I do a lot of work in a rural. Some rural communities who are coal mining towns and historically coal mining towns. And as a person who lives in D.C. i spent a lot of time earlier this year saying, I get that people want to cut down government spending, but you don't know all the like ripple effect of impact of that. And I wish we did it slower, more deliberately. We thought about mitigating kind of the consequences of it. A few years ago, when coal Mines were being shut down in some of these other communities. I was pretty loud about. I get that it sucks to lose a job, but it's better for our environment. I was quickly in that camp because I wasn't proximate to it. It's been interesting to now work in coal mining communities who say things a lot like I say about federal government cuts. They say, do you know that coal funded 80% of our social services through the United Way? So when we lost the coal mines, we lost our social services. Suddenly the opioid epidemic really took hold of our community. I wish we did this slower. I wish we mitigated the consequences. We are going to be. I have frustration about some of my family, friends, family members who live in places. Well, I have frustration about friends or family members who don't feel like immigration and the reaction to immigration right now is a crisis in our country. But they live in communities often where there aren't immigrants and so they're not proximate to it. There are many things I'm not proximate to that therefore I'm not panicking about. And so I want to own that in my own self and I want to take other people's perspective seriously, you know, and so actually all they have is fear of people they've never had the chance to know. I can be a person who takes that seriously and who then invites them to consider something different. You know, I hope that's landing are making sense, but I think so much of it is around proximity and taking other people's perspective seriously and acknowledging how much of our perspective is built on what we're proximate to.

[B]

Yeah, that's very true. Well, so I wanted to kind of wrap up with. If spaces like what you're doing are working the way you want them to work, what do you think? How would we notice it? Like, how do you think it would show up in our regular lives?

[A]

Such an interesting question because I wrestle a lot with that. What is the impact and how measurable does it have to be? And you know, I hope that our space is a landing place for people where they can exhale, where they're seen, where they're cared for. I think when people have spaces like that, they show up differently. Know where you have a place where you and, and where, where you don't have to be on eggshells. You know, I think we do some events that try and kind of, or some of our ways of operating that space try and kind of push people to think differently. Some are come in, settle in, relax, have, you know, something cozy and exhale for a second. I think having places like that that you can count on, that you trust, that you know are available to you, hopefully makes you able to show up more steady and grounded in spaces beyond that, you know. So I think success for us looks like people knowing that we'll say yes or they need a place to gather people. Success for us looks like people leaving our space feeling seen and like they were cared for or like they were connected to somebody else in the community or made to think differently about a neighbor they haven't had to consider before. And success for us is people knowing there's a landing place for them where they'll be welcome and where we take welcome really seriously and we take neighboring really seriously.

[B]

Yeah, I think all of our communities could use something like that. Well, Case, Gary, thank you so much again for making time for our program.

[A]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

[B]

That is it for this episode of the Outrage Overload podcast. For links to everything we talked about on this episode, go to outrage overload.net outrage overload is a Connors Institute podcast. The Connors Institute for Nonpartisan Research and Civic Engagement at Shippensburg University works to disseminate high quality nonpartisan information to the American public around issues of societal well being, democracy promotion, and news literacy. If you found this episode valuable, please share it or leave a review. It really helps. Thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.

[A]

Ra.