D (3:25)

Yeah, we. We often refer to the podcast as Tangent Factory. It goes from outrage to, like, something else. We talked about. We did one a couple weeks ago on how certain amount. I can't remember the exact number amount of Americans believe their home is haunted. And it just turned into, like, this whole thing about talking haunted houses and our experiences with hauntings and, like, just as random things. It trickled into an episode of the Dale show and turned into something else. So. But it's. Yeah, Dale comes up with the topics, usually sends them to me in advance so I can kind of study them. And so then we each have our own take on what's going on in the media, and then we can talk about it that way.

C (4:03)

Another thing, too, is I try to keep it a bit lighter because I like. Because I've, like, kind of a dark sense of humor, and I like to joke about stuff when I'm talking about it. So I don't really want to hit on things that are, like, too serious. Like, we'd never really talk about the wars or stuff. Or in politics, we kind of talked about the dump when something dumb happens in politics. But I just. I don't want to, like, actually offend somebody, like, give, like. I don't mind defending people with humor and stuff. It's just. I don't want to give them, like, I guess, like, I mean, justifiable offense at what I'm saying. So, like, yeah, that's. I don't really, like, want to make light of, like, death and stuff unless, like, when we start, like, four or five years ago, when on the podcast There was this big string of people dying by doing selfies. So we talked about that every week. We had like a running toll or whatever and it's kind of out of the news now. I don't know if they stopped talking about it or if it just happened. But that sort of death we would make fun of. But.

D (5:01)

Yeah, yeah, you're falling off a cliff taking a selfie or you fall off of, you know, waterfall or something.

B (5:08)

Yeah. And I know on your show, you, you, you aren't shy about using language here. And I will say that I have an arrangement with our partners at Connors Institute, so I will have to bleep that stuff. So try to keep it down.

C (5:22)

Oh, sorry. Did I swear?

B (5:24)

No, no, you did not. I was just thinking, I know you guys do on your show, so it's

C (5:28)

funny because right before we started, I said to my girlfriend, I was like, I'm nervous. It's gonna be hard not to swear.

D (5:33)

It's not even swearing though, Dale. It's the other stuff they talk about. Like we did a whole. Like, there's. There's certain things that I'm sure we' of banned for in general. There's certain things you can say. There's certain things you can't say on YouTube where they raise or lower your profile based on what you've talked about. And so I know Dale's pretty casual about it. I'm a little bit more tuned into like the. Of what we can and can't really say in terms of how it works with the algorithm. And I mean, I try to be. I kind of came from a nonprofit sort of educational background where I. I was trying to be funny without being, without using the terms and trying to. It's. It's a tough. It's one of those things, like you really have to skirt the, the double edged sword, like, which way am I gonna fall? Or, you know, I'm not using the right metaphor, but I think you know what I'm getting at.

B (6:19)

Yeah.

C (6:20)

Podcast.

B (6:21)

Oh, sorry, go ahead.

C (6:22)

I was gonna say with our podcast, there's definitely like, Jeff was saying there's words you're not supposed to say. Like that's why on Tick Tock you see like unalived and like great and stuff like that. And it's like I'm a welder now by trade. Like I used to be journal. Like I trained journalists and stuff. But then I was like, oh, I want to have a living wage. So I went into the trades. So it's like there's definitely this thing where you're doing your podcast and you're like, how much do I want to, like, try to talk and, like, not get picked up by the algorithms and, like, kind of like shadow band or whatever? And I'm just like, ah, I'll just let loose and let fly. And then if it doesn't get that popular, then it doesn't get that popular. Sorry.

A (7:05)

Right.

C (7:05)

You hear my toddler screaming in the background.

B (7:09)

I hope that's a toddler.

C (7:11)

Yeah, sorry about that. You might want to bleep that out,

B (7:16)

you know. Yeah. You know, so speaking of humor, I was going to ask about that a little bit. You know, like, I've had people sometimes people, and I don't. I think you don't listen to the show and probably never would listen to my show talking about, oh, I need to bring more humor into my show. And we do some, you know, we. We have some humor sometimes I like to keep the guests loose. But, you know, that's not really the brand that I think our listeners or our guests really are expecting. You know, they're not, like, looking for a zany morning show over here, right?

D (7:41)

Yeah, totally.

B (7:45)

Yeah.

D (7:46)

Yeah, exactly.

B (7:46)

The sound effects got the whole thing going. And, you know, and I know, but in your case, you, you know, you're obviously going in that, you know, not. Not the zany morning show maybe, but at least going for some humor. Like, Like, I always struggle with kind of the information and. And entertainment or information and keeping an interesting kind of balance. And you have to have that a little bit, too, it would seem like, because you're also kind of trying to inform people, and you have to find that balance. I mean, I'm sure you've had, you know, some thoughts about that.

A (8:13)

What.

B (8:13)

How do you guys handle that or how do you decide, like, when to be informative, when to be funny?

C (8:18)

Well, for me, it's laziness because it's like, it's. It's kind of laziness and kind of just like before, I was like, saying you got to kind of be like your true self and stuff. And for me, like, at work and around and with my friends, I'm always joking around and for me to, like, say laziness kind of offhand, but it's like, it's just. It's almost like it's less effort to just be yourself on the podcast. And then. And I feel like people would pick up on that and like it more. And it's like, if they don't, like. And there's also, like, this. You get away from this. Like, if I was like a fake person on the podcast, then people didn't like it. I'd be like, ah, I tried so hard and they still didn't like me. But if you're like your true self and, like, you're doing, like, poop jokes or whatever, fart jokes, and people don't like it, you're like, well, I just don't like that thing. Whatever. Yeah, so it's like that. And then it's like, like, me and Jeff are both have, like, Bachelor of journalism degrees. So it's like, it's almost like the informative, like, wanting to inform and being curious is almost burned into us. So it just. It also comes naturally. Like, I don't feel like I'm sitting there and being like, I got to give more information. But it's like a lot of the times when I'll be listening to a podcast and they'll say, and then they'll allude to some, like, fact or some statistic, and I'll just be like, why wouldn't you tell me that? And then I'll remember that. And then I'll be like, so if we're talking about, like a statistic, like Jeff was saying how many houses in the states were haunted or whatever, and it's like 62% of people find their houses haunted. And it was just. It's just like stuff like that where it's like, it's almost like a pet peeve when people don't, like, give you the backup information. And then so I always try to bring that in there.

B (9:59)

Oh, my God. Yeah. That's one of my. My pet peeves, for sure. You get these articles, you read the things, like, you're not telling me any of the things I want to know here. Like, they just leave this. Like, we're not going to talk about this anymore.

D (10:11)

It's one of those things. Like Dale, like Dale said, we. He and I went to journalism school together a really, really long time ago at this point. And one of the goals of the podcast was just sort of like to keep that creative intent going. Neither of us work in journalism. I'm in marketing. Dale's a welder. And, you know, I guess I kind of still write and I kind of. It's mostly co. It's mostly press releases, that kind of thing. I miss the thrill of doing an in depth story. But I. It's also, Dale and I, we've known each other since university, and we haven't, you know, we're not too serious as people in General. But both of us came from that background where, like, the. The meat of information is important and telling the story is important, and, like, having both sides told is important. So he kind of comes at it from a bit of the comedy side. I bring back the reality every once in a while. And this is a weird dynamic where he's the I' the serious one, and he's kind of. He's kind of.

C (11:05)

Jeff's definitely the adult.

D (11:06)

I'm the adult. I'm the adult. I'm the dad over here taking care of things. And that's sort of what makes the dynamic work, is that, you know, I'm the nerdy dad and he's the. The, like, we'll say anything kid.

B (11:17)

So the. The gimmick on. On the show I did with my wife is pretty much my job is to see if I can get her mad about something and get her kind

C (11:26)

of on a rant basically every relationship.

B (11:29)

Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say that. Just like. Yeah, you're just.

D (11:32)

You're just moving. Yeah, the show goes from, like, the. Up into the podcast studio.

B (11:36)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

C (11:38)

I have a question for you, actually. Now that you mentioned you do a show with your wife, like, one thing that happens to me now that we do a podcast or something, and I'm like, if I'm talking to Jeff, like, in the real world or something, I'll be like, oh, he should have recorded that. Did you ever run into that with your wife when you're just, like, shooting the tea or whatever in the morning and you're, like, talking about, like, what's going on? You're like, oh, if we would have recorded that.

B (12:01)

Well, it's. It's worse than that because all the time. Because we'll be like, oh, we got to stop talking about this because we got to do this on Sunday. Yeah, we record that show live, and it goes out on. On, like, Internet radio. And that's the other thing is it, like, has a time slot, so we have to start it and then end it on a certain time, which we never do. We always run long.

D (12:19)

It's funny. Oh, yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, David. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt the. That was sort of one of the things that, like, Dale and I have talked about in the past, too, is like, we. You know, when you work for. I used. For a newspaper, and we always joked about, oh, it's yesterday's news today. And it's the timing of some of the things is. Is important. You know, like, you have a time slot for it. We get together on, like, a Saturday or a Sunday and do the podcast when we have time in between our, like, regular schedules with our families and everything. And sometimes we can get pretty timely, but then it's the release of that, too, like when the. When. When it goes out. And I always wonder sometimes, too, if people are hearing things like, well, after they're actually newsworthy. But it tends to be like, the way the news cycle works. You've got a good, like, 72ish hours for a topic to be sort of relevant. So. So sometimes, like, yeah, the. The time slot thing is a weird thing. Like, did we do1 from 2 weeks ago that's kind of relevant that people are still talking about? Is it. Is it important to people? Is it interesting to people?

C (13:17)

Right.

D (13:17)

So we try to pick topics that are. At least have a little bit of legs to keep going, you know?

B (13:23)

Yeah, it's a lot of pressure because after I do that live show, I then, you know, as quickly as I can put it out on. On the RSS feed, you know, and out as a podcast. So I usually try to do that the next day. So, yeah, that's. That's. That's why that show is, you know, pretty much unedited. I pretty much just take that. Spit it out. The opposite of my. My show is pretty heavily edited.

C (13:42)

Yeah, I was listening to one, and you had, like, a doctor on. And I was like, oh, I don't know if I could. Like, I was. I was actually all nervous because, like, you have, like, these experts, like you said, and I was like, am I just gonna, like, sound like the dumb guy in between experts?

B (13:57)

Well, that's kind of my job is. I. I'm sort of the, you know, okay. Guy is not afraid to ask the sort of dumb questions. And I try to make it approachable, or I should say, accessible to, you know, ordinary people. Like, you know, if you're a bit of a science nerd, that's fine, but you don't have to. We don't really go into, like, the math, and we're gonna go teach you how to calculate the P values and, you know, this kind of stuff. Right. We're gonna do a T test and let's go. You know, we don't do that.

C (14:21)

But.

B (14:21)

But I don't mind getting a little jargony and a little bit deep, you know, like, sometimes I'll do a little edit in. Like, I'll say, oh, you know, we've talked about, you know, affective polarization before, if you remember. It's this blah, blah, blah. And I might say something about that. Right.

D (14:33)

But yeah, just to decide the pace going. Yeah.

B (14:35)

And how often to say that, like when we. We spit out jargons. I kind of struggle with that.

C (14:39)

Yeah, yeah. We were doing every week for a long time, but it's kind of like dropped off because, like, as before, Jeff alluded, we both have. I have a just under two year old, so it's like a lot of the times it's not like I can't do time or whatever, but I just like, I get that like, guilty father feeling, like, be like, oh, should I podcast right now instead of hanging out with my kid? And then I just like.

D (15:01)

And for me, it's one of those things, like, if. If I didn't have Dale to push me to do it, I don't necessarily know if I would do anything in the podcast sphere. It's just like, you know, my son is on the soccer pitch four days a week and, you know, I have a demanding job in marketing and I have a wife and I have a cat, and I have a place I've got to take care of, and I need some time to study and work on my. Work on my role. And I just. So when the podcast comes up, Dale will let me know. He's like, hey, let's do it. And we try to do it every two weeks and. But I look forward to it. It's that it's me. It's time for me to connect with my friend and do something that I feel is like, it's fun, it's interesting, it's almost self care to do a podcast. And then also I'm being informative and also we're being funny and entertaining. So it's kind of like a way for me to do some self expression, you know, and it's just. And it just, it feels good to do something media related that isn't for pay. Yeah, that goes definitely not for pay. We're not getting paid for this. This is a hobby project for us and we do it out of love and something that, you know, and I didn't even know. Like, Dale and I did this podcast for so long, we live literally across the highway from each other and. And we've seen each other like four or five times in real life, and mostly we see each other on the podcast. Yeah.

C (16:19)

Yeah. It's definitely like, if we didn't love it, we wouldn't be doing it. And that's. Yeah. So. And the other thing.

B (16:25)

Yeah, it's a lot of Work, Right?

D (16:26)

It's a lot of work.

C (16:27)

Yeah. And you don't want to, like, make yourself hate it by forcing yourself to do it too much. So it's like, like, we could definitely probably be a more popular podcast if, like, I spent every couple hours every day, like, pushing and, like, promoting and doing all this stuff, but I'm like, oh, would that be worth it? Like, yeah.

D (16:48)

And I have those thoughts too. Right. Like, do we turn this into, like, a media thing? Do I, like, put more effort into this to make it go? Or do we just. Or do I love it for what it is and get to hang out with my buddy every couple of weeks and make some time to do something for us? Right.

B (17:03)

Yeah. I can definitely relate to that sort of therapeutic side because having done this show for a couple of years and all the experts that I've talked to, it made, you know, kind of just going through this whole election cycle a lot, you know, just a lot more kind of resilient to all the. All the stuff and everything going on. So I think I would be. I would have had, you know, find. Found myself kind of caught up in a lot of it, a lot more had I not kind of been doing this show and learning a lot more about this space.

C (17:30)

Yeah, yeah. This was a very tumultuous election cycle, I found. Anyways, like, I started like a cut, like a year or something ago, I started listening to a lot more news podcasts, and there's one I listen to where they have, like a left wing guy or a left wing girl, right wing guy, and they kind of discuss the topics back and forth. And it just felt like this election cycle had so much more drama in it, like, even more than, like, Hillary versus Trump, like Trump versus Biden, then Kamala, even, all that. And it's just like, it was definitely like, you kind of had to be like, oh, I'm gonna take a step back.

B (18:10)

Yeah, for sure. So. So over that time of. Of kind of looking for what. What's. What made people outraged that week or over that time period? I mean, have you seen patterns or has that kind of changed, do you think?

C (18:24)

Yeah, I've. I've noticed. I think it feels like we've kind of stopped calling for, like, regular people to lose their jobs. Like, like you were saying, like, there's trends, like in, I'd say, like 20, 17, 18, 19 around there, there was like this big call for, like, regular people who just, like, screwed up. And there's a video on Tick Tock or whatever it was back then. And they would just like at like there was this one episode we did where there was a girl, a woman in like a Denny's and she said something racist to these guys and there's this big outcry for her to lose her job. And she was like our dealership administrator. And it's like, yeah, why should she lose her job? It doesn't really affect it. So it was like there's like, there's that trend of like getting regular people to get fired and then there's the whole me too trend. And then it's. Right now it's kind of like everything happening at once. Like there's all of this stuff, there's like, we don't have the like regular people losing their job outcry for that stuff. But you have like, it's so fever pitched that everybody's trying to explain why everybody's a bad person. Like with the election cycle that it's like it's too many people are, they're like trying to call out too many people so that it's like not as effective as it used to be. Like, because back when me too started, it would like, you'd hit, you'd hear something about Weinstein and it would last for like weeks and then it would pile on. Then all these people would come out. Well, I guess there's Diddy now. But like now like Elon does something stupid and then you talk about that for a couple of days and then someone else does something stupid. And. Yeah, and it's almost like more sped up.

D (20:06)

One of the patterns that I still see that I've always seen in the cycle, and this is like less a specific pattern and more just a general pattern. Somebody says something dumb, people make fun of that person for saying something dumb. Then other people pile on and make fun of the people for making fun of the people for making fun of or for saying something dumb. So that cycle continues. I don't think give you really a concrete example, but somebody says something stupid or silly or way off and then everybody mocks them. And then the next trend the next day is for everyone to mock people for mocking that person. That cycle has never stopped. That's like something that's a constant. Like somebody posts a meme and it's kind of offensive. And everyone points out that that meme's offensive. And then everyone points out everyone pointing out that that meme's offensive. And that cycle continues every day, all the time, within news. Within. Within news.

B (20:58)

So as, as real journalists. I mean, is any of this drive Been partially just because you feel like, like journalism, journalism is letting us down in some way.

D (21:07)

Journalism let us have a long time ago.

C (21:09)

Well, yeah, actually I'm like, I always think about this a lot. My, my main comments on this, like was we, we were trained in print journalism and that took a, like, that was a lot slower to evolve and it had all these rules set out for what you had to do. And then the Internet journalism kind of just grew so fast that they don't have the same rules and regulations that print journalism had. Like with misinformation. A lot of people think that this is like a new thing, but that's been around a long time. So in a newspaper, like a business couldn't just like they could buy a full page ad, but they couldn't just put something that looked like a news story because it would be too misleading. So print journalism had this thing where it's called an advertorial, where you buy a full page ad and then at the top it says paid advertisement. And it's like they had all these rules. Like you couldn't use the same font as the same as the body of the paper. It had to like physically look different. Like the columns had to be different width and stuff so that someone could see it and know that it's misplaced and stuff. So it's like a lot of people don't really understand how we've always had to have these guardrails and watch out for people and like, because it's not like people are more gullible now. It's. We've always been that, but we've always had to like build up these slow rules to guard for that.

D (22:35)

The transition from the blurring of advertorial into standard content was so fast by comparison. Right. Like it took forever for the journalism for the print media industry to sort of adopt the advertorial. Like it started out very simply as an advertiser would buy an ad on one page and then you do a review. Say it's a car dealership buys an ad on one page and then the journalist is asked to do a review of that car on the other page, but only speak highly about the car because it's going to appear next to an ad and they're paying our wages. So it was understood that you do this, but it wasn't really an advertorial at that point yet. Then the advertorials crossed over, then the Internet hit and, and then it was very difficult to tell what was an advertorial. And what was entertainment and what was actually news media. And then now it's just headlines. Now people get outraged about a blip of something that just happens so quickly. And like, at least with the newspaper you could read a headline and be like, oh, that's, that's ridiculous, that's outrageous. And then you read the story and you're like, oh, okay, well actually it's not so bad. It's just a grabby headline. Right now all you get is a headline. You don't get anything else. You get a headline and a picture and a photograph of somebody doing something. And with a, with a outrageous headline, there's nothing beyond that. It's like click here, click in the link in the bio and you're like, no one clicks in that link on the bio, right, to read the story. They're reading the, the front, the front page thing and they're moving on with their lives. So no one ever the, the expanse of research journalism has disappeared completely. The long form journalist is rare and no one has the attention span to read a, somebody's long form journalism. Even though that's where the information lives, that's where the truth of the story lives. That's where both sides get outlined. But I could just look at a picture and read the headline and I get the gist. But the gist is whatever the person operating the account wants you to believe. So.

B (24:23)

Well, and the people writing those headlines are often, you know, just, they're just looking for that click anyway.

D (24:28)

They're looking for a click? Yeah.

B (24:29)

The person that wrote the article is often sort of upset with the headline because it doesn't really convey the article. But they don't control the headline.

D (24:35)

Right, exactly. It's a totally separate person writing it.

C (24:38)

So. Yeah, yeah. And it's now like you even have this other thing like called clickbait journalism. Like in the newspaper industry it was like it was called the reverse pyramid where it's like you have all the information at the top and then as you go down you get less and less information because people would get bored and they would like quit reading or whatever. So you want to give them, them a support news first. Whereas now you have clickbait thing. And the only thing you're trying to do is like kind of like trick people in to keep scrolling so that more ads will load on the page so it'll look like. Because like now with, when you're looking at stuff on the screen, they can actually tell if you looked at it and stuff. So they're like, I keep, I Keep falling for it. I hate it so much. It's like you'll never believe what this. Or like, I get it a lot with movies. They're like, this new movie's coming out and it was. It bombed at the box office ten years ago, but now it's really good on stream. And you're like, oh, what movie is that? I might want to watch a movie later. So you click on it and you scroll. They're like talking. They talk about it without saying the name. And you're like, just tell me the name. And you're like scrolling through. And then you finally get it, but you've gone through like five screens and you're like, I'm so callable, man.

D (25:46)

I read a Star wars article the other day that did that exact same thing. It listed out a bunch of points and it was like basically an expanded photograph. And I couldn't see it because I'm old man vision. I wanted to get to it.

C (25:56)

And I'm like.

D (25:57)

And by the time I realized how mad I was about reading this chopped up article, I'm like, they got me. Oh, sorry. They totally got me. And I was like, I got to the bottom of the page. I was like, I can't believe it. And I'm all mad at myself for falling for it.

B (26:10)

So we've talked a little bit about sort of stepping back from some of this. I mean, do you have any advice for folks of how to do that? And do you think like, some of your listeners are gaining that, you know, maybe that ability? Or is it they just going to get in the laugh out of it?

C (26:24)

Like, I do try to give some advice, like, about stuff and then like, like, I'll bring it up. Like, if you're getting pissed off while you're online, there are actually people who try to piss you off because like, we were talking about the clickbait thing where there's the other. There's like the rage engagement where it's like the more mat. Like if you re. You read some, like, however much about stuff you like, but if you're pissed off, you'll read more about it. Be like, oh, I can't believe they did that. What were they doing next? And it's like you kind of just like you said, step back. And then I always say, like, you kind of got to realize that they want you divided and they want you mad at each other. Like, because if you have two political parties, this is just, I don't know, I don't want to get too conspiratorial. Or anything. But it's like if you have two, two political parties and you're just like a regular guy who's in the middle somewhere, and you'll look at each one, you're like, oh, they're doing this good, they're doing that bad, that bad, but whatever. And then you kind of like one thing on each side. But the way it is now, they kind of like, they try to make your choice binary, where you're like, you pick one of the teams and then that's it. You don't care what the other person says. If they did good or bad. You're only this team. And then the thing that the, the one of the reasons they do that is so they could kind of get away with more stuff. Be like, well, if everybody who's on our team likes us, if we do something that would be bad, we can get away with it. So if you're at home and you're reading about stuff and you're getting mad, just realize that it's. It might be a tactic to get you mad so that you kind of like, I don't know, don't voice your opinion in a convincing manner.

B (28:04)

I had Mike Serrazio and I'm talking about the conspiracy theory stuff. He's, you know, media guy, and he's like, you know, I think the biggest conspiracy. Conspiracy of all is that nobody knows what the heck they're doing.

D (28:15)

Yeah, that's an absolutely fair point. Yeah, totally. I've found for me, like, you know, you kind of mentioned stepping back. I was terminally online for, for a number of years and, you know, you meet these people that, like, they just live their lives on the Internet. And, you know, getting back to basics of not being online all the time gives you a healthier perspective when you do approach things online, I think, and I don't, you know, I'm going to be that guy that says that. I know people are going to throw tomatoes at me for saying that kind of thing. But. But, you know, if you're on the Internet all the time, you. I think you're outraged more easily. You. You get angry more easily. There's more information that you're not really able to process happening at the all, like Dale said, all at the same time. And I, I quit Twitter, X whatever a couple of years ago. I had it. I use it for years. I was like an early adopter. I quit it once before for like five years. I came back. Everyone's like, oh, you're back.

C (29:16)

Hooray.

D (29:16)

I'm like, back. I Was there for about a year, and I couldn't handle it anymore, and I laughed again. And I've been, like, completely sane ever since. Like, I don't feel angry. So when Dale and I do these shows, I'm less mad. I used to be kind of more fun, I guess, on the show because I was angry about everything all the time.

C (29:35)

And now that.

D (29:36)

Now that I'm like, I've taken a step back. I spent. I spent an hour and a half in the woods today with my son. We're just hanging out in the forest. And I, like, wasn't on a phone, wasn't on a computer, just hanging out, driving RC cars in the wilderness. And it was amazing, right? And it's just like, now I've come back and I'm gonna. I know I had to do a podcast this afternoon. I read up on some of the news media just in case I needed to know anything before I got here. And I was a little less happy when I did that than I was outside playing. Right? But I can also face that more easily now, right? And, like, I think I can face the news more easily now, and I can be objective a little bit better. And I can. I can, like, I can split off and dissipate what's trying to make me angry and understand where to put that. And now I can be a little bit more calm coming into it.

B (30:21)

Right?

C (30:21)

I think one thing too, that it's related to all this is, like, a lot of people just have to realize, like, I didn't know this until, like, I kind of like. Because I used to have a desk job. I used to work in journalism as a graphic designer. I'd like, do. I would design, like, maps and stuff for editorial stories. And then when you're doing that, like, you have a desk job, you're on a computer, and the. The Internet's right there, so you can just go. And then I didn't really kind of get, like, the whole step back and take a look at it until I, like, I started being a welder and working in the trades where it's like, I'm not. I, like, I have to go to a shop and I have to, like, go weld something or bang something with a hammer or something. So I won't even. I won't have a screen in front of me for, like, hours at a time. And then I'm just like, oh, yeah. Like, I'll have my phone in my pocket. And I'm probably pretty guilty for sneak and peeks or whatever, but I still have to like, like put it aside. And if you have a job where you're working through a screen, you kind of have. There's this whole other level of like self regulation where you like, especially if you have like pop up like notifications and stuff, where it's like you kind of got to give yourself. Like Jeff was saying he was in the woods for an hour. You got to give yourself the advantage of not having your screen in front of you. And if you have a desk job, I always found a good thing to do would be to like, take a bathroom break when you don't need one. I don't know if anybody else does this, but I would just be like, oh, I gotta go to the bathroom. And you just like go. Not be at your computer for 10 minutes and tell people you're in the bathroom. And I don't know if like, that's bad for people and it might get them in trouble. But like, you're entitled to bathroom breaks and you do need a break from your thing.

D (32:05)

So I go for a walk at lunch. It's awesome.

C (32:08)

There you go. Yeah.

B (32:09)

Yeah. Well, those habits are really important. And you know, sometimes people get like, they kind of get frustrated. You know, it's just like that you're just like placating me with this stuff, you know. But the reality is kind of mindfulness and spending some time and, you know, they actually do make a difference. You know, some of these simple things, we just don't go back to them all the time. Like, people have kind of known about this for sort of 10,000 years or at least several thousand years. And he's like, don't, don't go back there. Sometimes times it's a practice.

C (32:33)

Right.

D (32:35)

You have to actively choose to not be on your screen. Right. And that's, I think that's the hardest part for people because it's just like, you know, like, it's right here. Like it's right there. It's right there all the time.

B (32:45)

And I'm. And I'm bored. It's been eight seconds.

A (32:47)

I'm bored.

D (32:48)

It's been eight seconds. And I need to see something else. I need somebody to yell at right now.

C (32:51)

Yeah. Plus, screens are just delicious to look at.

D (32:54)

They're delicious. I've been trying to raw dog the sky train the last little while. So I have to take the train into work. Right. Like, so it's like a rapid transit system that we have here in Vancouver. It's. It'll be similar to your bart, I think. Um, and I go into work Three days a week, and I go on the sky train and I stand there and I try to, like, not use my phone and just be in the moment. It's the worst time in the world to choose to be in the moment. But I'll find, like Dale said, screens are delicious. And somebody's, like, beside me looking at their phone. I'm like, what are you reading there? What are you looking at? Like, I can't help myself. I can't stop myself from looking at it.

B (33:25)

Well, the other thing about it is when you're doing that on train, because I used to try to do that, too. Everyone's looking at you like, you're a weirdo. Like, why aren't you on your phone?

D (33:32)

What the hell's wrong with that guy? He's sitting there. He's sitting there, like, just looking out the window, like, look, life is precious. What is wrong with him?

C (33:39)

Yeah, it's like that old saying, you stack casual, no one will bug you. And it's like, not having a screen is not.

D (33:44)

That guy is weird. He's weird.

B (33:47)

You know, and talking about online, like, and talking about kind of doing this after having the show, I try to be. Be kind of go into more of an observer role in a lot of these situations, too. And online, you know, if you do that, I mean, basically you're never going to participate because there's like. Like, what use would it be? Like, there's no. Everybody's talking and nobody's listening. You know, it's just everybody puts out a post thinking, well, I've changed them all now.

C (34:11)

Yeah. Yeah, that'll show them.

D (34:14)

Do you all remember, like, the.

C (34:15)

The.

D (34:16)

That. That time in Internet history where it was especially prevalent on Twitter where someone would post something and then somebody, hey, you stole my post. And it would go on and on and on forever. And then there was a whole argument of, like, whether or not people can have the same thought at the same time and type something very similar within minutes of each other or hours or. Right. Like, yeah, it's that whole thing too. Right? Like, there was a. It's a big deal for people to, like, have ownership of something.

C (34:41)

Right? Have ownership, I guess, meme culture.

D (34:43)

Right?

C (34:44)

Sharing is caring.

D (34:45)

Sharing is caring, baby. Yeah.

B (34:48)

So a couple things I guess we'll wrap up with. What can you remember or can think of anything that sort of you would say is maybe the most ridiculous thing people got outraged about.

D (34:59)

That's probably a long list. That's a big list.

C (35:02)

Yeah. There's

D (35:06)

Bean Dad. Bean dad was that one. Was Incredible. That one went on for weeks and weeks and weeks.

B (35:12)

I don't even know what that is.

A (35:12)

Tell. Tell me about Bean Dad.

C (35:14)

Oh, okay. Do you want to explain it or.

D (35:16)

Yeah, no, you go for it. You go ahead.

C (35:17)

So there's this guy, and he was like. It was. I don't know if it was on Twitter, but it's the. It was the equivalent of live tweeting. Like he was saying that his son or daughter. I can't remember what it was. I think she was like, five. Sure, he was five or six. And she was trying to open a can of beans, and he was being kind of, like, joking, being like, I'm not helping, or she has to learn about this and all this stuff. And so he was like, just kind of like. I think it was, like, half joking. Like, obviously nobody's gonna let the kid do it, but he'd be like, it's been hours. She hasn't been able to open this. She's gonna learn how to use a can opener or she's gonna starve. And then all these people got super upset because it's like, like, like we want to, like, dismiss triggering effects and all that stuff. But there's a lot of, like, women apparently on the Internet who are our age, like, I'm 45, just 48. And like, we're like tail end Gen X. So there's a lot of people our age and younger, like, elder millennials, who have dads who are just, like, basically jerks to them while they're grown up. And it just kind of brought this off. It was just like the floodgates were open and every. All of these people complained about dads were just, like, jerks to them and that this guy was like. And they just kind of piled on this guy. They just, like, wouldn't leave him alone and just wouldn't take no for an answer. Because if you have, like, this resentment built in you at your, like, father figure or your father growing up, then it's just like, you can't really go to them and you can't really express to them in a meaningful way, because how they, like, made your life harder than it needed to be. Because if you could do that, that they wouldn't be the jerks that they were in the first place. So they were kind of just unloading on this guy, and it was, like, called Bean dad.

D (37:06)

And it was kind of a tongue in cheek thing. He wasn't really doing it to, like, right, actually be spiteful, but it just, like, I don't know what it was, but it created a huge rip in, like, the. In, like, a moral sort of.

C (37:19)

Yeah.

D (37:19)

Fabric thing, and everyone just lost it.

C (37:21)

For weeks.

D (37:22)

They talked about this, and I guess it's like.

C (37:25)

It's like, it's. I don't want to be too cavalier about it because as a person online, like, with our podcast and stuff, it's like you can't control every time you're gonna bring up something that you didn't intend, like, you. Your daughter opening up a can of beans is just gonna unleash this tire. Like, this floodgates of, like, women who have estranged relationships with their father. But you also can't really die on any hills. You got to be like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that this was gonna do this. So it's like. It's almost like as a person on the Internet who releases content, you can't just be like, it's not my fault. What happened with the words I said? You kind of just like, they are still your words, and you kind of have to have, like, responsibility for it.

D (38:11)

You have to own them a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

C (38:13)

But at the same time, you can't, like, have ultimate responsibility. You can't be like. Like, you can't take it back. You could just be like, sorry, I didn't mean to do that, and that's not what I intended or whatever. But, yeah, I don't know. Like. Yeah, I don't know. I like how, like, as I'm talking about it, I'm on the fence.

D (38:31)

I brought up this in us right now and see, it's still going on to this day.

C (38:35)

Give me 10 minutes to talk myself through this right now.

D (38:38)

And I think that's one of the reasons why, like, I have to be the adult on the. On the show all the time, because I. I mean, we're both, like, relatively reserved as adults. Dale pushes the envelope a little bit, and. But. And. And I will. And the problem is I'll laugh at Dale, and, like, I can't laugh at that. I shouldn't laugh at that. That's, like, not actually funny. I catch myself, and I'm like, I have to be the adult here and, like, not laugh at this. This joke. That's actually horrible. But. But it is. It's like, you're always trying to.

C (39:04)

You.

D (39:05)

You have to own your words, but you can't be. You have to let it go. You have to let it go at some. At some point, too. And if you have made a mistake and people and this thing, you have to be able to make a little bit of mistakes. You don't learn, you don't grow unless you make mistakes. But you have to be very careful about the mistakes that you make. They should be calculated and at least sort of like. Like have some. Some thought put to them, you know? But you don't learn and you don't grow unless you make mistakes. And it's just on a podcast that's public, sometimes those mistakes can be devastating, depending on what you say. So you have to be kind of cautious about it, right?

B (39:37)

Well, like you say, kind of in this current culture, if it takes off, you know, and outrage, panic mode sets in. Yeah. It can ruin your life.

D (39:46)

You don't have control of that. It's. It's how other people are taking it. And that's. I think that's the other thing that's weird about the Internet and weird about podcast culture is that you don't know how someone is going to take your words, and you don't know who's going to listen to you. And they may move on, and they may never tell you, and you can't learn and you can't grow if somebody doesn't give you feedback on that part. And sometimes you'll never know, and then you'll continue to say the wrong thing, and you won't learn, you won't grow, and you won't to take that back at some point. So, yeah, it's about being cautious, too.

B (40:15)

Right? Yeah. You got to plant flags sometimes, though.

D (40:19)

Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, we all have. We all have our. We all have our, like, our moral compass. Our. Our piece that, like, our. Our. Our hill. Whatever you want to say. Somebody help me out here. I'm d. I can't figure this out, what I'm trying to say.

B (40:35)

Well, that's one of the things I always, like, I'm talking to people in this space who, like, get. Sort of Start saying, well, you. You know, you're just telling us to be nice to everybody and this kind of stuff. And it's like, you know, there's this idea that people have that, like, if you listen to somebody that has a different opinion and that somehow nobody's make.

A (40:54)

That doesn't make you change your opinion.

B (40:55)

Like, you can still have your opinion. Like, they just can't get those two things in their head at the same time. That, you know, you can listen to other people's opinion without changing your opinion. Like, it's like. Yeah.

C (41:05)

And.

D (41:05)

Yeah, I have one of the things. Oh, go ahead, Dale.

C (41:07)

I was gonna say I think one of the things I was thinking about this today as I was thinking about just like outrage culture in general. One of the things like what you're saying where it's like, how is listening to someone just automatically gonna change you? I think one of the problems is there's a lot of people online who think everybody else is D than them. So they're like, well, they're just going to be convinced too easily. So if you like platform this person, then those m. Like this guy's magic words are going to hit these dumb people and they're just gonna have their minds changed and they're just gonna like, totally just be convinced to do what he does. But it's like you kind of gotta like understand that pretty much every, like the ma. Vast majority, unless you're like a genius, then you can't can have that. But like, most people are average intelligence. It's average because it's the most. So most people online are going to be just as smart as you. And it's like if you can differentiate between what someone is saying is smart and dumb, then you got to allow other people to have that same kind of ability.

D (42:11)

Yeah, yeah.

B (42:12)

So if you guys could sort of magically erase, you know, one source of outrage from the Internet forever, what would it be

C (42:22)

like? Do you mean like the platform or just what it is?

D (42:26)

I was gonna say politics. Disappear. I just, you know, I don't know about a thing that needs to disappear. It's important to have. And I'm not saying we go topics.

B (42:39)

I'm not censorship. Just thought of like, in a magical world.

D (42:42)

In a magical world, politics would be great if it just went poof and took off or, or, or if at least it was like civil or not. Like trying to constantly make you feel like it's. You're on. Have to be on one polarized opposite end of. Of something. Right. That would be really it. You know, you really want people to not. You don't want people to get along because that'd be boring. It's actually good that people spar a little bit here and there. It's awesome to have different opinions because then again, you don't learn anything if you don't hear an objective opinion to something that you believe in. It's that confirmation bias. You think I'm right about everything and you don't really, you know, it's no fun. There's nothing interesting.

B (43:20)

Well. And you can't really move forward. I mean, that's another thing that a lot of people have misperceptions like some of us in this bridge building space and depolarization stuff, they think we're just trying to get everybody to agree about everything or whatever, right?

D (43:31)

No, not at all. Right. That's not, that's not the goal.

B (43:33)

It's not that at all. It's about dis. It's about disagreeing better. Right. That's what it's about. And it's also about coexisting. Like, sometimes you're not going to agree and we've got to learn how to coexist and sometimes work together despite, like, you may never like that person. That's okay. But, you know, if you, if you want to get anything done in life, you're probably gonna have to work with them.

D (43:50)

Sometimes you need people with skills or

B (43:52)

at least coexist without wanting to just

A (43:54)

go blow them up.

B (43:55)

And, and there's this other. There's some. As a technical term for. I forget what it is, but it's like a fantasy that we all have that somehow we can kind of just make these ideas that we don't like, somehow they just go away. Like, think they can make that go away. It's not going away. Like, this is the world we live in and it's not going away.

C (44:11)

Yeah, I was gonna say mine thing that I would get rid of, it's. It's kind of more like conspiratorial and I would just be like corporate capture where it's kind of like the censorship that happens. Like when an industry gets so big, like on. I guess, like, I guess like on YouTube when they like, they kind of like their algorithm puts stuff other. Like we're talking at the beginning how, like you say certain words and then that algorithm pushes those higher and then you say someone that pushes it down. So like my. The thing I would get rid of is basically just like the whole shadow band algorithm, like preferences and stuff. That's what I would get rid of. Oh, and also like the algorithm that shows you what you hate just so you like rage. Yeah, yeah. That's what I would get rid of.

B (45:07)

Yeah. And, you know, and changing those incentives is, is, you know, like I said, it's a magic world we're talking about here.

C (45:14)

I said we had magical powers.

D (45:17)

I was even thinking about getting rid of capitalism so I could do this full time without having to worry about feeding my family. Right. Like, if I didn't have to focus on money or finances of any kind, I would put more effort into research and doing proper stories, reaching out, interviewing more people and talking to More interesting personalities and, like, doing this as a. As a. As a job. As a job, as a. As a method to help further humanity versus, like, doing it on the weekends to make butt jokes with my buddy. Trying to. Try to. Try to find some common ground to, like, you know, do that, rather than having to, like, yeah. Hustle all day and try to make some cash.

B (45:52)

Yeah. I mean, I'm lucky every. I'm retired, you know, from. So, you know, and. And I have some patrons and stuff that really make the show, you know, a lot easier for me to deal with. But. But, yes, if I had to, you know, like you say, put foot on the table and put kids through college. Yeah. There's no way I could be doing this.

D (46:10)

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. See, that's. And that's really cool. It's kind of encouraging to hear, because that's something I would be interested in doing in the future, too.

C (46:16)

Right.

D (46:16)

It's like, you know, yeah, I want to retire. Yeah.

B (46:21)

Yeah.

C (46:22)

I don't want to work. I want a podcast.

D (46:24)

Yeah. Different. Different kind of thing. A different fulfilling piece of my life. That would be amazing. So I'm like, I'm proud of you, David, because that's rad. That's something that people can aspire to do in the future. Right. That's really cool.

B (46:35)

Well, thank you. And I'm also encouraged by the stuff that you want to magically get rid of as sort of. I wouldn't say capitalism, but in terms of the politics, that's what we're trying to do in this world is at least, you know, lower that temperature in that space. Right. And I think.

D (46:50)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

B (46:51)

The good news is there's a lot of people looking at it. I'm not the only one. I'm certainly not the smart one with all the. All the answers. I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to find the smart people, bring them on the show, and let people hear from them.

C (47:02)

Nice.

B (47:02)

So, yeah, I really. I. I really enjoyed having having you guys on the show. I really appreciate it. Your. Your podcast is Outrage Factory, and then you also have another show, Dale.

C (47:11)

The Dale Show.

A (47:12)

The Dale.

C (47:12)

Just online.

B (47:15)

Oh, okay. You can't get rid of him.

D (47:16)

Yeah.

C (47:17)

Yeah, I kind of backed off that one, because when I. When Outrage Factory was me and Derek, me and Jeff would do the Dale Show. And then once Derek kind of took a step back and I brought Jeff on to Outrage Factory, we focused more on that. Like, every once in a while, I'll do a Dale Show. When something comes up that I Want to talk, like, something conspiracy conspiratorial comes up, I want to talk about. But that one's, like, almost inactive, but it's not so. Well, it's mostly just the outrage factory.

B (47:46)

So is the conspiracy. Conspiracy stuff, you know, that you're sort of out there debunking things or just. Just trying to learn more about it.

C (47:53)

I'm just.

D (47:54)

He fully leans into them, and I play this. The straight man debunking them. So that's sort of how it goes. Yeah.

C (48:00)

The thing is, with the conspiracies, it's. It's almost like. Like we used to read comic books when we were a kid, and it's not like we believe Spider man had superpowers. It's just funner if you believe he has superpowers. Yeah. I'll go into these conspiracy theories, and I'll just present what the people are saying about it. And, like, if they're. If it's obvious that it's dumb, I'll say, hey, this doesn't work, because this or that, the theory does. But it's like, I just. I just like to put them out there and be like, isn't this fun? Yeah, we're talking about this right now.

B (48:33)

Yeah, Well, I know, and I, I have to, you know, I'm generally. I'm the. I'm the science guy and, like, you know, trying to debunk everything within your, like. I don't know, man. That's a possibility. Maybe that one.

A (48:43)

That.

B (48:43)

That one sounds interesting. All right, guys. Well, it was really fun chatting with you. It was a lot of fun.

C (48:49)

Yeah, I had a lot of fun, too. Thank you.

B (48:50)

Yeah, I, I. I found a new. I found a new podcast to listen to now. So you guys, now you're a problem for me because you're taking up more of my time.

D (48:58)

Sorry about that. I'm apologizing in advance.

C (49:02)

Yeah.

D (49:02)

As Canadians are want to do.

C (49:04)

Yeah, I'm not apologizing. You deserve it.

D (49:07)

Apologize.

B (49:08)

Yeah, it's on me. All right, guys, well, thanks again. I really appreciate it. You guys have a good night.

D (49:14)

Thank you, Dave.

C (49:15)

Yeah, no problem. Thank you.

D (49:16)

That was a lot of fun. Thanks very much for having us.

C (49:18)

Had a blast.

A (49:29)

That is it for this episode of the Outrage Overload podcast. For links to everything we talked about on this episode, go to outrageoverload.net Want to dive deeper? Check out my substack@outrageoverload.substack.com or outrageoverload.net newsletter for more insights beyond the podcast. Subscribe, comment, and join the conversation. If you found this episode valuable, please

B (49:53)

share it or leave a review.

A (49:54)

It really helps. Thanks for listening, and I'll catch you next time.

C (49:59)

Sam.