Don’t Worry, the Yellowstone Super Volcano Won’t Kill Us All, with Ben Bradford

Summary

Outside Podcast: “Don’t Worry, the Yellowstone Super Volcano Won’t Kill Us All, with Ben Bradford”

Date: July 22, 2026
Host: Patty O’Connell
Guest: Ben Bradford (journalist, host of “Are We Doomed?”)

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Episode Overview

This episode blends humor, vulnerability, and insightful reflection as journalist and podcaster Ben Bradford recounts his late arrival to the outdoors and how it intertwines with his fascinating work on existential threats. While his new podcast “Are We Doomed?” explores humanity’s biggest dangers—from supervolcanoes to mosquitoes—this conversation stays rooted in the hope, humility, and unexpected joy that come from embracing nature in adulthood, even (and especially) as a self-professed “bad outdoorsman.” Expect plenty of laughs, family stories, and surprising takes on the overlap between doomsday scenarios and outdoor adventure.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ben’s Unlikely Outdoor Origins

[05:31–12:18]

• Ben admits to being a “bad outdoorsman” and details how the outdoors didn’t figure into his childhood, partly thanks to his parents:
  • His father, a Marine, was put off camping by grueling Vietnam-era wilderness survival training. (“He apparently snared one rabbit... had no way to cook it... We never camped.” – Ben, [08:42])
  • His mother, from San Francisco, preferred indoor comforts.
• Outdoor activities as a child were limited to backyard play and frequent trips to Eagle River, Wisconsin, where a memorable moment involved out-fishing his older brother.

Notable Quote

“Like, I love the outside and I’m really bad at it... my longtime girlfriend... she’s just like a monster. You know, she has, like, no stopping on stamina.”
— Ben Bradford, [05:31]

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2. Outdoor “Burnt Toast” Moments

[12:18–14:42]

• Shares an 8th-grade Yosemite trip story where he broke his nose (“exploded my nose”) after being hit with a Maglite during a failed pillow fight, sleeping two nights bloody and concussed with no one noticing.

Notable Quote

“I got off the bus back from Yosemite, and the first thing my mother says to me is, ‘What happened to your face?’”
— Ben Bradford, [14:07]

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3. A Late Bloom: First Real Camping Trip

[14:57–17:49]

• Ben’s first adult camping experience was a Mendocino beach trip, prompted by a new community in Sacramento.
  • Initial fears included tent setup and feeling “trapped,” but kind friends handled setup, and camaraderie made it special.
  • The “jumping off point” moment was simply not wanting the trip to end.

Notable Quote

“It was a moment where I was like, yeah, these people are really like my people.”
— Ben Bradford, [16:52]

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4. From Latecomer to Outdoor Advocate

[18:29–23:03]

• Gradual progression: group hikes in Tahoe, one backpacking trip, increased comfort with car camping and hiking logistics
• Now aspires to visit more national parks, naming Yellowstone and Glacier as priorities.
• Finds most comfort in planning and leading simple trips—turning pitfalls into learning experiences (“I can put the tent up and I can help other people now”)
• Ben credits his journalist background for his pragmatic, not panicked, approach.

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5. Finding Identity and Confidence Outside

[23:47–26:20]

• Adulthood “beginnerism” has been “transformative,” bringing intention and awareness to outdoor growth.
• Ben argues that starting outdoorsy pursuits as an adult is not “missing the window”—the first step can be car camping or easy hikes.

Notable Quote

“I think there’s real value in being bad at things... It’s good for your brain, it’s good for your soul. It feels cool to learn and get better...”
— Ben Bradford, [24:43]

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6. Los Angeles Hiking, Stress, and Reset

[26:22–28:13]

• Ben describes using Griffith Park as a personal pressure-relief valve during a stressful LA job.
• The outdoors offers escape from digital tethers, daily stress, and provides humility and perspective (“you feel part of something bigger”).

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7. The “Aggressive Hiker” Partner Challenge

[28:30–34:11]

• Ben’s girlfriend, an avid and ambitious hiker, has upped his adventure game significantly.
• Hike expectations differed: “A hike, like in Griffith Park” versus “Mount Baldy with a weighted vest.”
• First major lesson: the difference between “a walk” and “a slog,” discovering the endurance pain of steep, prolonged hiking—with tongue-in-cheek comparisons to kickboxing pain.

Memorable Exchange

Patty: “Are you saying that hiking a peak is more painful than getting kicked in the head?”
Ben: “Oh, yeah. Definitely. 100%. Really, dude? Oh, definitely.”
— [33:09–33:17]

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8. Outdoor Relationship Dynamics

[34:11–35:51]

• Asymmetry in outdoor experience sparks growth, not friction—Ben is grateful to be “taken onto new experiences.”
• Humbling mishaps, like underestimating water needs and heat at Chaleo Pass, drive home the importance of preparation.

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9. “Are We Doomed?” Podcast: Science, Humor, and Hope

[35:51–41:08]

• Ben details the premise of his show—exploring humanity’s existential threats (nuclear war, AI, pandemics, asteroids, supervolcanoes, etc.).
• Running tally: 141 potential world-ending scenarios.
• Surprisingly, “doom” research has made Ben less anxious, partly from seeing how humans have averted catastrophe in the past.
• He draws a line between human-made threats (immediate, acute) and natural threats (vast geologic timescales).
• Looking up at cosmic events deepens his appreciation of Earth’s natural defenses, like the magnetosphere (“the reason we see those lights in the sky…”).

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10. The Power of Perspective: Geology, Astronomy, and ‘Our Place’

[41:08–47:56]

• Outdoor experiences in Moab, exposure to geologic layers, and star-watching have sparked research questions for the show (e.g., the Fermi Paradox).
• Geological time is both humbling and hopeful—our existence is rare and precious, and there’s potential for immense progress.
• If we “make it” through current challenges, an unimaginable future awaits, conferring a deep sense of responsibility.

Notable Quote

“We can’t picture what the future looks like...because we haven’t solved [these problems] yet.”
— Ben Bradford, [46:46]

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11. Final Reflections: Preciousness, Humility, Hope

[47:56–49:06]

• Working on doomsday topics has, paradoxically, fostered hope and realigned Ben’s worldview, underscoring the rarity and beauty of life.
• Admits that, in the moment, this cosmic perspective doesn’t ease the pain of being left behind on a tough hike.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was like, am I going to feel trapped [camping]? And it was, what is this experience going to be kind of away from everything?” – Ben, [16:40]
• “If you’re wondering what any of this has to do with the outdoors, beyond the fact that global annihilation would make getting outside kind of difficult…” – Patty, [02:00]
• “There’s a theory...all civilizations are destined to blow themselves up if they discover the technology that allows them to. It’s not the only answer, but it’s not the only answer.” – Ben, [43:32]
• “Maybe you guys are like, ‘no problem’... But for me, I was like, this is not for me.” (On leaving a yurt overrun by caterpillars) – Ben, [52:29]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamp | | ----- | --------- | | Athletic backgrounds & hiking humility | 01:12–02:00 | | Ben’s outdoors-avoidant family | 07:40–09:11 | | Yosemite nose incident | 12:18–14:42 | | First real camping trip | 14:57–17:49 | | Transformative nature of late-life outdoors | 23:47–26:05 | | Stress relief in Griffith Park | 26:22–28:13 | | The aggressive hiker girlfriend | 28:30–34:11 | | Outdoor relationship mishaps | 35:11–35:51 | | Human threats vs geologic threats | 37:10–39:10 | | Perspective from geologic time | 45:26–47:56 | | Final rapid fire: Gear, snacks, bugs | 49:16–52:41 |

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Final Ramble: Fun Rapid-Fire Outdoor Preferences

• Can’t camp without: a good sleeping pad (“This is the difference between people who like camping and don’t like camping.” – Ben, [49:35])
• Best snack: “Natural-style” fruit rolls (“Nothing has ever tasted better than that.” – Ben, [50:08])
• Outdoor “hot take”: Outdoors is great—“unless there’s bugs.” Caterpillars lead to a middle-of-the-night trip abandonment ([51:00–52:41])

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Tone & Takeaways

• Authentic, self-effacing, and hopeful: Both host and guest joke about being out of shape, suffering mishaps, and getting humbled—reminding listeners that the barrier to entry for outdoor adventure is lower than you think.
• Curiosity and stewardship: Ben’s late transformation into an outdoorsperson parallels his work: confronting fear, learning, and fostering hope are vital in both nature and existential inquiry.
• Scientific curiosity meets lived experience: The connection between Ben’s time outdoors and the research paths he pursues (“Are We Doomed?”) illustrates how wonder and humility in the face of nature can drive meaningful exploration.

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For Listeners Who Didn’t Tune In

This episode is a warm, funny, and unexpectedly optimistic conversation about how it’s never too late to become “outdoorsy,” why experiencing humility and challenge outside is uniquely worthwhile, and how a little scientific perspective (even on doomsday topics) can actually make life sweeter and richer.

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Recommended If

• You're a late-blooming camper or hiker
• You want reassurance that everyone struggles sometimes
• You’re curious about science and existential threats but need humor and hope
• You love outsider stories that blend the personal and universal

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Transcript

[Patty O'Connell]

This episode of the Outside Podcast is brought to you by Arkansas the Natural State. The thing that separates an adventure from just a standard issue outing outside is surprise. And there may not be a more surprising outdoor locale than Arkansas. A temperate climate means playing outside year round. And let me tell you, can you ever play from kayaking at Two Rivers park in Little Rock to the famed mountain biking in Bentonville, or afloat on the Caddo river or the Buffalo National River. Oh, by the way, was America's first national river, to tromping around Mount Nebo State park for unbelievable views of the Arkansas River Valley. In the natural State, you're never far away from fun. Lakes, rivers, mountains, woods, trails, canoeing, boating, mountain biking, hiking, fishing. Whatever you want, whatever your skill level. Your next surprise outside is in Arkansas. Plan your next [e-mail]. This is the Outside Podcast with Patty O.

[Ben Bradford]

My sort of athletic background is that I did a lot of like combat sports. I was. I did. Never professionally, but I was like, I did some amateur kickboxing.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

There's a different type of pain that's involved in those types of really long endurance hikes.

[Patty O'Connell]

Really?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

Are you trying to. Are you saying that hiking a peak is more painful than getting kicked in the head?

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, yeah, Definitely.

[Patty O'Connell]

What?

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, 100%. Really? 100% really, dude? Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

Like you would rather have someone do like a crossface like choke hold headlock on you than hike a thousand feet over like a mile?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, I mean, this is personal preference, mind you, but. But like you can tap out of the choke hold on

[Patty O'Connell]

what terrifies you. I'm not talking about avalanches or scorpions in your sleeping bag or what to do with your hands when someone takes a picture of you. I'm talking about the stuff that truly keeps you up at night. Capital S. Scary stuff. I ask because I recently discovered a new answer to that question. No one ever told me that. In the aftermath of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a group of very smart people created something called the Doomsday Clock. Informed by a panel of experts who synthesize a variety of geopolitical factors, the clock represents how close we are to global annihilation thanks to nuclear proliferation, AI run amok, or any number of human made threats to our existence. The smart people set the clock once a year. And in 1947, the clock read 11:52pm this year they set it to 11:58.35. That's right. It's 85 seconds to midnight right now. Gulp. If you're wondering what any of this has to do with the outdoors, beyond the fact that global annihilation would make getting outside kind of difficult. Let me introduce you to Ben Bradford. Ben is an award winning journalist and the creator and host of the new podcast, Are We Doomed? In it, Ben explores the existential threats facing humanity. And not just the human made stuff. There's an episode about the Yellowstone supervolcano, and one about the worst natural disaster known to all of humanity, the mosquito. Despite the weekly drumbeat of bad, Ben comes off as generally pretty positive that our chances are okay as a species. This is partly due to his extensive shoe leather reporting, which ensures that hysteria never overtakes the facts. And it's also due to his ever growing appreciation for how remarkable this planet is and we are at facing any manner of challenge. Ben came to this realization in part thanks to the time he spent hiking and camping. Even more surprising, Ben came to hiking and camping really recently. It wasn't until he was in his 30s that a few enterprising friends and a trail obsessed love interest dragged him not entirely willingly into the outdoors on a regular basis. And since he got there, he's been able to see things like space debris bouncing off a remarkable magnetosphere, geologic time laid out in desert rock formations, and appreciate our unique place in it all. Where the cynical see insurmountable problems, Ben sees a history of brilliant solutions. And when his admittedly strange choice of subject matter starts to weigh on him, it's the long walks in the hills outside his home in Los Angeles that provide the perspective many of us tend to lose when we're looking at, say, oh, I don't know, maybe a doomsday clock. There are no shortage of problems facing us on this blue and green space rock we call home. But talking to Ben, along with some fresh air inducing long walks of my own, had me feeling something I didn't expect to feel when chatting about the big scary stuff out there. Hope I bet you will too. And if not, maybe go take a hike. First things first, burnt toast. What's your last humbling and or hilarious moment outside?

[Ben Bradford]

See, this is gonna be the theme is that I'm gonna have a lot of these because I feel like I'm the worst outdoorsman. Like I love the outside and I'm really bad at it and I'm like somewhat new to it. So I had this sort of consistent experience of throughout my relationship with my longtime girlfriend where she's just like a monster, you know, she's like one of those people who has like no stopping on stamina. And so I don't know if it's the most recent, but, you know, the moment that I realized that was like, early in our relationship and we were doing this hike and I was like, man, I can hike. I'm in good shape.

[Patty O'Connell]

It's just walking with trees. Like, I'm.

[Ben Bradford]

Exactly. And we did this thing. We did a sandstone peak in the Santa Monica Mountains, which is. It has beautiful views and is itself just very rocky. This was during the pandemic. It was like cloth mask time. And it was like the sort of thing where, like, we would put the cloth mask on when we were passing people, passing by people. Cause, you know, like, we didn't know. We didn't know what the etiquette was and all that. And at a certain point, I'd lost mine. And so I'm there and I'm just like, gasping, right? And I'm thinking, I'm on this sort of, like, date. She goes, oh, I'll go check. And she runs down the mountain, and then she runs back and is not out of breath. And it was very humbling. And that has sort of defined our relationship, which is her bringing me to beautiful places where I'm just, like, nearly dead.

[Patty O'Connell]

I can't wait to talk about that more. I also feel, like, very aligned with you on this. I feel like we are. We are brethren in this because on one of, like, our first outdoorsy dates with my wife, I was just, like, huffing and puffing, trying to keep up with her. And I looked at her and I was like, I'm really sorry that, you know, I'm going so slow. I'm just. That's just how I am. And she looked at me and she went, you're not going that slow. And then did one of these, the up and down. Like, like, I was like, made me feel about, like, about as tall as a thimble. And I was like, okay, so it's just going to be like this from now on.

[Ben Bradford]

Okay, cool. It's good to be humbled, you know, it's good. It's good to understand where you fall in the range of ability.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah. It's like, oh, athletic. And then there's me. All right, let's get into it. You are kind of an outdoorsy late bloomer.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

You were in your 30s the first time that you went camping. And there are a few reasons for this, so I want to start there. Let's talk about your folks. Your dad was a Marine, and part of his training included a week long extreme wilderness survival let's call it ass kicking My whole Uncle Sam, which made him never want to camp again. Is that correct?

[Ben Bradford]

That's basically right. Yeah. The story goes, my father is from the northwoods of Wisconsin. You know, grew up outdoors, grew up hunting, doing all those things. He joined the Marines during Vietnam.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

There was some part of the training that they had him do that was a wilderness survival thing where they dropped you off with, as I understand it, like a parka that had some pockets in it and some rope. And they taught you how to make, you know, snares and what have you, and had to get from point A to point B. Now, all this is filtered, of course, through the story of my father, through my father's stories. And so we always have to, you know, understand that, you know, there's a certain amount that our fathers maybe embellish. So I don't know. This could be dead.

[Patty O'Connell]

Negative 40 out. I was naked and all I had was a bowie knife.

[Ben Bradford]

That. That's exactly right. I mean, that is essentially the story. And so he. He apparently snared one rabbit over the course of this track, over courses of days, had no way to cook it via fire.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

So just basically had one meal of raw rabbit and otherwise sort of making his way outdoors. And so we never camped.

[Patty O'Connell]

He never wanted to after that, yada, yada, yada. We never camped. Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, basically. And, yeah, and my mother is from San Francisco, and she likes being indoors, and her idea of camping is like a hotel. And so between the two of them, there was just no one to take me.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, how did your folks ideas about the outdoors shape your relationship to nature? Like, would you describe yourself as a indoor kid where the outdoors kind of partitioned off to the backyard and neighborhood parks?

[Ben Bradford]

I was very outdoors as a child, but, yeah, I was like on the lawn or in the park, running around, playing soccer. I did the thing where it was play soccer in the fall and basketball in the winter, and then, oh, yeah, baseball in the spring. And then sort of like fell off each of those at the time, you know, baseball first, because I was bored. I'd be picking the. The grass out of the outfield, sitting down. Balls were coming at me.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

But, yeah, I mean, I. I ran around a lot and played outside and. And that was a key part of my childhood. We were certainly one of those families where it was like, go outside and play.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah. So it's safe to say then that, like, you played outside, but the outdoors or the wilderness was like a faraway place.

[Ben Bradford]

Is there a thing that like people do, that's like a very common activity for some people and it's just like not on your radar at all. You know, some people golf, I don't golf and it's just not an activity that I do. But people have weekends where they golf.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yes.

[Ben Bradford]

And I think that's sort of how hiking was for me, you know, and certainly how camping was for me.

[Patty O'Connell]

I have never heard someone describe the outdoors as akin to golf. I love this, but I get, I

[Ben Bradford]

get what you said. I mean, that's how it was.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, yeah, I get what you're saying.

[Ben Bradford]

And I was deeply in cities, you know, I mean, I was in Washington D.C. is where I grew up until I was 12. And then we were in the suburbs of the San Francisco Bay area, which, you know, is just like, like very dense and it's beautiful. And then of course, you know, in California there's just so much within reach of you, which is one of the things that I've sort of discovered more recently.

[Patty O'Connell]

But yeah, the Bay Area, like the, the Bay Area though has like some really like famous like fishing places, you know. Did you fish at all? Did you spend time in the water?

[Ben Bradford]

We, we fished very, very occasionally. So we would do trips to Eagle River, Wisconsin, which is the northwoods of Wisconsin. Like once a year this kid from Washington D.C. is bundled up, taken on a 24 hour car ride to the northwoods of Wisconsin, plopped outside, been like, here's a boat, here's a rod and go fish. And actually, you know what? Yeah, I actually really liked it, um, particularly because I have a brother who's a year older than me. And I remember going on this trip and we were, we were just fishing off the dock actually outside of my, my grandfather's house. And I caught like 16 fish.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, totally.

[Ben Bradford]

My brother. The good part was, my brother, you're older than me, which very significant when you're like six and he's seven. Oh yeah, he caught nothing.

[Patty O'Connell]

I would bring this up at every Thanksgiving ever. Oh, could you pass this stuffing? Also, do you remember that time that I totally kicked your ass in the fishing contest, the unofficial fishing contest when we were six?

[Ben Bradford]

It still comes up. It does.

[Patty O'Connell]

It comes up. Yes. You better believe it. Oh yeah, for sure. So I guess this is what I'm digging at. Like the outdoors or the wild wilderness was something that you had to like get to. It wasn't a part of the everyday. Right?

[Ben Bradford]

Yes.

[Patty O'Connell]

Although you have said that you had this very unique situation happen on a eighth grade class trip to Yosemite Yeah. Like, you returned from this battered and bloody. Could you tell this story, Patty?

[Ben Bradford]

I'm like, this is gonna just be a Shrek through humiliation for me on this. On. On this episode.

[Patty O'Connell]

This entire episode is one giant burnt toast.

[Ben Bradford]

It is. It is. So, yeah, I went to Yosemite on a class trip, and it was spectacular and it was beautiful. And I kind of vaguely remember that, because mostly what I remember is we were divided into fours and staying in these little cabins. This just screams 8th grade. One of my friends tries to hit me with a pillow while it's dark. He's also holding his flashlight, which is a Maglite.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, God. Dude.

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, no. Yeah, it just exploded my nose.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh. Boom, boom.

[Ben Bradford]

And it gets sadder. It gets sadder. It gets worse. So it's at night. We're not supposed to be awake, much less, you know, beating each other.

[Patty O'Connell]

Beating each other flashlights to death with flashlights. Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And so my nose is exploded, and I get blood all over my sleeping bag. I remember they told us where, like, the medical tent was, but I couldn't remember. And it was in one of those little caves.

[Patty O'Connell]

Concussed.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, exactly. So I didn't do anything. So I just, like, slept there. And then, honestly, the shocking part, the only part of this, that really enrages me. Cause that's just sort of like, things happen to children.

[Patty O'Connell]

You know?

[Ben Bradford]

Like, you just do dumb things. You're an eighth grader, and, like, dumb things happen. And, like, okay, I had to sleep that night, but no one said anything. So there's two days left on that trip, and no one commented on it.

[Patty O'Connell]

Like, your nose was, like, sideways, and there's blood all over you and your shirt and your bed and your sleeping bag, and everything's just like. No one says anything.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah. I got off the bus back from Yosemite, and the first thing my mother says to me is, what happened to your face? Oh, my God.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, because I bet by now, what, you probably have two black eyes swollen, and you haven't seen a lick of ice.

[Ben Bradford]

Okay, imagine. Imagine an 8th grader, but with a nose like this.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah. Listen. Bed. You've got a beautiful. That's a beautiful beak you got there, buddy.

[Ben Bradford]

That's lovely. Thank you. There's a reason that my. My show is animated.

[Patty O'Connell]

Nice. I'm curious then, if. If that is your, you know, one of your big outdoor experiences, your formative outdoor experiences, then what in the hell instigated the first camping trip in your 30s?

[Ben Bradford]

Okay, here's what it was. And actually, it was awesome.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

So I moved to Sacramento and I had that experience where I. I was working there. I was covering the state capital as a reporter, and I knew a couple of people there. I knew a husband and wife who were both my ex roommates who are like, lovely, and some of my best friends and. But other than that, I had nobody. And I very quickly fell into having these communities, these sort of like, incredible communities where I just. I had met people there and was like, hey, I need friends, want to be friends? And they were like, yeah. Which was awesome.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And so this crew went on an annual beach camping trip up in Mendocino county, and it would be, you know, 25 people, and you actually can camp directly on the beach. There's an RV park called Westport beach, and it's mostly RVs, but you actually can book camping reservations on the beach itself, which, like, I have, like, only since then sort of found out how I think rare that kind of is. And yeah, sort of how sort of special that is to, you know, walk out of the tent. And the ocean is right there and it's like, really lovely. And so it was sort of like, okay, everybody's doing it. It's sort of a big, big party. And I remember, God, so embarrassing. I mean, I remember I was scared.

[Patty O'Connell]

What. What about it? Scared. I mean, I. I don't think that's surprising to me given your. Your other experiences. But like, what. What was scary about it?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, I mean, well, mostly it was, I think, like someone's in the middle of the night going to come into this tent and hit me with a Maglite and then leave.

[Patty O'Connell]

And then no one's going to say anything for two days.

[Ben Bradford]

No one's going to say a word

[Patty O'Connell]

about it until my mom sees me and she's like, oh, God, your face.

[Ben Bradford]

Not again. I think, yeah, I think I was worried. It's so funny to look back on. I was definitely worried about, like, how am I gonna set up the tent?

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, sure.

[Ben Bradford]

And the answer to that was simple, which is my friends were gonna do it for me before I even got there because they're lovely people.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And I think it was, what is this experience going to be kind of away from everything? Am I gonna feel trapped?

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah. Ooh. Ooh. Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

And so that was, I think, what I was worried about going in.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, how did it end up going?

[Ben Bradford]

I loved it. I loved so much. And best part was sort of the community aspect of that was great. I was around all these people and all these friends, and I think it's still, my favorite part of camping, even if it's a small group or a big group, is just you get to kind of like, lock in, you know, in a way that's so hard in our lives. Yeah. And I feel very married to my phone, partially for work, partially because of just, like, the way. And so, like, not having reception is just such a huge blessing. And so I think it was the community aspect of that. And it was a moment where I was like, yeah, these people are really like my people.

[Patty O'Connell]

You've described this trip as like the jumping off point for your, let's call, adult outdoorsy ness. And it sounds like it was equal parts vulnerable and really transformative. Was there a specific moment during that first camp out that made you feel like you crossed a threshold from nature observer to participant?

[Ben Bradford]

You know, I think it was when it was over and we're packing up and it was like, I don't want this to be over.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, okay, great. Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

You know. Yeah, I think probably that. I mean, there's certainly moments that I remember from that and from subsequent trips. You know, just everybody around the fire, cooking meals, just, you know, lying around outside. Again, you're on the beach in California and it's like, you know, it's not. It's not like LA beach. It's. It's. It's colder, windier, Northern California beach, but still, I mean, it's just kind of the beauty of that sitting there for an hour and just kind of washing the waves. You know, there are all those kind of moments, but I think it's that thing at the end where it's like, oh, this was great, and I could be here longer. I think I was like, okay, I like beach camping with, like 20 people, but does that mean I like other camping? I don't know. And then I had to go on other trips to be like, oh, yeah, I very much do.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, well, and that's. That's my next question. Like, how has your outdoor participation expanded since that trip? Like, what was the trajectory?

[Ben Bradford]

So I remember there were, like, a few things that happened to happen in succession there. One was that I have a cousin who lives in the Bay Area who was a PE teacher, and he would always take his eighth graders out to Mount Talik in Tahoe, which I think is the third highest peak and is a really sort of amazing hike and not. Not an easy one. I mean, probably easy for people who are listening here, but not easy for me. I remember he organized a trip with his two brothers, and they're very. We're all really close. And so the four of us went out and did this hike in Tahoe that was this, like, beautiful experience. It was hard. It was cold at the top, but it was, like, warm at the bottom. And that was, again, this thing of, like, doing this together, but also just, you know, you're just huffing and puffing for such a long time that you have no choice but, again, to just sort of experience where you are. I have been backpacking once, and if you remember that story that I told you about hiking with my burnt toast story, it was basically that. But backpacking addition. Okay. Yeah. I thought we were going to go three miles. We ended up going, like, five miles up a mountain, which, again, Patty, I know it sounds like nothing to you. It sounds like nothing to you. No, no.

[Patty O'Connell]

And I get it, man. I get it. It's all. It's all relative.

[Ben Bradford]

And that was like, a fun experience, but also just absolutely one of the. One of the most physical experiences.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

Of my life, for whatever reason. I mean, maybe it was. I mean, just. I don't know, maybe just not having that kind of conditioning. But you know what I really want to do? I want to go to more national parks. So I went to Moab a couple of years ago now, and we'll talk about this, I'm sure. But in terms of doing this podcast, there's two different things that relate to the outside, I would say, Right. One is how we destroy it. That's a key part of the dooms that we're looking at, but the other is how it destroys us. And so, you know, we have an episode that's about the super volcano underneath Yellowstone, and the headline there is, we're good, we're fine. But, like, if you like, the hot springs say thank you. The geysers say thank you to the super volcano. But, like, you know, now I really want to go, you know, and I've never been to Yellowstone, and I have heard how beautiful it is, and I want to go to Glacier. I can, like, think back to national parks. I've been to. I've been to Bandolier, and I just want to explore more of those. So more than maybe the big backpacking trip, because if my girlfriend takes me, it would inevitably happen. I might die. I want to see these places, you know, I want to see more of these places.

[Patty O'Connell]

What have you become most comfortable with outside that formerly intimidated the hell out of you?

[Ben Bradford]

I would say two things. I mean, one is just being able to feel very comfortable going out and doing a hike of however Indeterminate length and making sure that I've got enough water and I've got enough snacks, and I'm gonna feel not worried about it in any way. And I've had. That's again, because I've had all the other experiences of, like, you know, not having enough water, which is, like, one of the worst things.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

The other is just like, I can lead the really simple car camping trip, and I can cook for everybody. Like, I think one of the things that's fun is you can figure out how your other skills apply. So I already could cook on a grill. I could cook over a fire. And then things would happen where it's like, oh, nobody brought any kind of spatula or, you know, utensil this thing. It's like, okay, well, I can crush a beer can and turn it into that.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yes, yes.

[Ben Bradford]

So I've certainly, like, had those experiences, and I. It's like, yeah, I can put the tent up and I can help other people now. And I found myself doing that and trying to remember who it was. I definitely was camping with somebody who'd never gone before. And it was. It was a very fun role reversal where it's just like, oh, yeah, I think. Let me, Let me, Let me. Let me. Let me assuage your fears here. You know, I left being a reporter at the show Marketplace, and I left to go off on my own. And I love it. Like, I love it. Like, I love working for myself, but I have not figured out that work, life balance, that planning to be able to take the trips that I want to take. And every time I go, I just value it so much, you know? So it was again, like, my girlfriend planned the trip to Moab, and it was awesome. And it was. We went to this, another spot that's. That's out there called Dead Horse Point. Oh, yeah, State Park. You know it. Yeah. And it just.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

I mean, it's one of the most incredible views that I have ever seen. You know, you feel like you're on another planet. And I'm grateful every time I have one of those experiences. And I have not figured out a way for myself to ensure that I give myself the space to have those experiences.

[Patty O'Connell]

It's a good thing you're seeing the lady that you're seeing, my man.

[Ben Bradford]

No, no question. No question.

[Patty O'Connell]

It's like, oh, thank you. You're gonna plan. This is awesome. You're also gonna kick my ass. Okay, cool, cool. It's a good trade off.

[Ben Bradford]

There's trade offs, you know, what about

[Patty O'Connell]

your non camping family and friends? They think you're like a weirdo for going down this path. Oh, for sure.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, 100%. My brother. Every time my brother sends me memes about how ridiculous it is to go be sleeping outside when you could be sleeping in a bed, you know, to forego electricity.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the value of that then, because do you think that discovering nature later in life made you appreciate it differently than so somebody who, say, grew up immersed in it?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, I do. I think that there's something that's been really cool and rewarding for me to learn. Oh, this is something that I like. This is something I want to do more of. This is something that I want to find more reasons to do and continue to advance so that, you know, in three years, if I come back here, I'm like, hey, I have done the big backpacking trip. Hey, I have gone to these national parks. Like, I wish I'd done it earlier, but it's been cool.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, I, I think adult beginnerism can often feel, you know, more transformative because you're actively reshaping your worldview in real time, but you're also very aware of it. Right. As a kid, it's sometimes like, oh, these things are happening to me. And as an adult, I think it's a little bit like, oh, I've got to be intentional about this. I'm deciding to do it. So I'm wondering how entering, like, outdoor spaces as an adult maybe change your perspective on what the outdoors is and what it can actually do for us.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. The first thing that came to mind is maybe not exclusive to the outdoors, but I think that there's, like, real value in being bad at things.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Ben Bradford]

Not to excuse all of the. The embarrassing confessions I'm making here, but I do think that that that has been actually something that's really valuable. It's just, you know, I think it's good for your brain, it's good for your soul. It feels cool to learn and get better, and that's very much been a part of my outdoors experience.

[Patty O'Connell]

More from budding outdoorsman and host of the show, are we doomed? Ben Bradford, after the break. One of the things I find fascinating about your story is that it challenges the stereotype that the outdoors or outdoor culture belongs only to people who were raised within it. So what do you think you would tell adults who feel like they maybe like, you know, miss the window to build a relationship with the outdoors?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's not, you know, that that's not a real thing. I mean, I think people can feel that way for sure. I think that's like, very valid. People feel that way, but I think it's not. It's in their head. And I think that the sort of baby steps that I got to do were probably the right baby steps, which is that the world's easiest camping trip with people that you love who are there and support you. And, you know, I mean, that's such a great way in a thing I've also learned is just how there are things for people of all levels. So I have friends who only do car camping and that still they get to be outside, they get to be away from the phone. They get to see things they wouldn't see.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, yeah, Car camping is the best. Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And so I think that that is definitely true. And even, like, you know, hiking, right? I mean, you can find hikes. I mean, there's a reason that if you pop onto all trails, you know, they have the different levels of things. I don't know if they're always properly rated, but.

[Patty O'Connell]

But that's got beef with all trails.

[Ben Bradford]

Nice. Let's. Let's. Let's start it. But, yeah, I was at this one job in la, at this reporting job, and I was so stressed out. It was, like, not going well. I was having a really hard time. I just. It was tough. And a thing that I started to do was just go on the weekends to Griffith park and just hike around Griffith park, which is sort of, again, like kind of this magical place right next to Los Angeles. And it's huge, and it's incredible. You know, you can just go get lost in it. And it became this thing where on Saturday or Sunday, I would just go up and I would spend, you know, six hours just walking around out there. And, you know, I'm literally 20 minutes from my home, but still in this area where you can get away from seeing any buildings. I would come back from that. So just. It was just a pressure relief valve, what we're seeking.

[Patty O'Connell]

A lot of times, like, in the outdoor community, I feel like we say, like, oh, we really want to get out there. I really want to. I want to do something big this weekend. I really want to feel like I'm getting out there. And really what I feel like that is, is like, code for, like, I want to get away from this stuff here inside my home, my phone, my email, the to do list. I'm supposed to, like, build that Fence out back and I'm supposed to paint it. And I've had this thing done. I just want to get away from that stuff and have it all shed away and just be and be free. Is that what you were seeking? And do you think that's still what you seek every time you go on a hiking or a camping trip?

[Ben Bradford]

Like, I think that's part of it, but there is something else. Just about how big the world is and how. How you can see that. You know, you go up, up to Griffith park and you're in the hills. You go up Mount Hollywood and you look over. You get to a point where you can look over the city and the sky is so big, you're not. You know, I mean, again, I grew up in cities and, you know, just with buildings over me. I. I think. I'm sure this is cliche, but I. I think it's true. And I think it's cliche because it's true, which is that it just. It's humbling, and it just like, makes you feel part of something bigger.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, I would like to talk about some specifics of feeling humbled or maybe specifics of getting humbled. How much of your outdoorsiness is a result of your gals ability to, quote, aggressively hike. You've called it.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, I mean, that's like a key part of it. But I will say, before we were like the camping stuff, that was before we were together. My intro to it and that story I was just telling you about hiking Griffith park, that was also before it. So I certainly had an interest. But definitely she has kicked it up a notch and continues to. And it's like, one of the great things is that, you know, she pushes me and she does the planning for those things. You know, I would not have gone to Moab without her planning that trip.

[Patty O'Connell]

How exactly were you introduced to your girlfriend's aggressive hiking? Was it early in the relationship?

[Ben Bradford]

Yes.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay, tell me that story.

[Ben Bradford]

So here's what happened. Yes, we worked together, but didn't, like, know each other that well. And then we happened to live in the same area of Los Angeles, and a mutual friend who we also worked with, like, started inviting us out to trivia, and we became friends. And then the pandemic hit and, like, we just needed to be outdoors. Right. And she loved being outdoors and obviously still does. And at some point we're like, oh, yeah, like, we should go on a hike. And two different things were clearly going through both of our heads. Like, well, on my side, I'm like, a hike Like I do in Griffith park, you know, where I. Where I go a couple miles up to Mount Holly is. Which, yeah, I feel really accomplished.

[Patty O'Connell]

A stroll, a constitutional.

[Ben Bradford]

And her, it's like, let's go up Mount Baldy with. In a weighted vest. And so it was really funny because I very much remember going on the first hike, and she chose it. And she has a book of trails in Los Angeles, and she checks off each one that she's done, and she's, like, committed. Someday she will finish this book.

[Patty O'Connell]

Nice. I like it.

[Ben Bradford]

The problem is that you do the most scenic ones first, the most impressive ones first. So at some point, there's going to be some gulch, you know, just like, buy the oil rigs in Los Angeles. And she's gonna be like, well, we gotta go.

[Patty O'Connell]

I gotta go.

[Ben Bradford]

It's on the list.

[Patty O'Connell]

Disney is a check mark. We gotta do it. Yeah, classic.

[Ben Bradford]

So we went on this hike, and I'm very much thinking like, okay, I'm good. I'm in shape. I hike all the time. What's the issue? And just I had never experienced or thought of that incline as a viable thing. And so what I got introduced to at that moment was this idea of, I'm not just going for a walk through beautiful terrain. I am doing this slog, you know.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yes.

[Ben Bradford]

I'm putting one foot in front of the other, no matter how painful it gets, just to kind of keep up. And that was, I mean, literally introduced me to a different form. I mean, it must sound so obvious, but really introduced me to, like, literally a different way of thinking about what that activity of hiking is.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah. Different way of seeing yourself and what you can do outside.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah. But also, if you'd said, what's a hike? I would have said, it's walking outside and hopefully in a nice area. It's like going to Muir woods, you know, in the Bay Area. And if you'd asked her, what's a hike? It's, let's slog up a mountain for the reward at the end of it for that. That real type 2 fun.

[Patty O'Connell]

Listen, like, I don't want you to feel like you're alone in getting worked by the one that you love. Like, I have considered myself to be inside the gooey center of the greater outdoor community since my 20s. And I, too, have gotten myself way over my head out in them hills because the woman I love to smooch, my beloved wife, has said, oh, dear, it's just one more switchback. So, dude, like, same Z's. But, like, I do think that. That type two fun. Like, those experiences are really valuable because very often my extra athletic wife pushes me way out of my comfort zone. And as sweaty and as painful as those things can sometimes be, they're worthwhile. They teach me a lot. So for you, what have those types of hikes taught you about trust and relationships and yourself?

[Ben Bradford]

I think you just said it in a lot of ways. I think about that backpacking trip trip that we did, which was like, again, like, the world's, like, tiniest, most baby backpacking trip, but I was so tired by, like, mile one. I mean, I was just. My legs were burning.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And I remember this moment where it's like, I'm just gonna put one foot in front of the other. I'm just focusing on the next step. I'm just focusing on the next step. And then we got there, and I felt very accomplished that I did that. And I should say, you know, so my. My sort of athletic background is that I did a lot of, like, combat sports. I was. I did. Never professionally, but I was like. I did some amateur kickboxing.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

There's a different type of pain that's involved in those types of, like, slogs in those types of, you know, really long endurance hikes.

[Patty O'Connell]

Really?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

Are you trying to. Are you saying that hiking a peak is more painful than getting kicked in the head?

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Patty O'Connell]

Definitely.

[Ben Bradford]

100. Really? 100? Really, dude? Oh, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

Like, you would rather have someone do, like, a cross face, like, choke hold, headlock on you than hike a thousand feet over, like, a mile? Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

I mean, this is personal preference, mind you, but, like, you can tap out of the chokehold.

[Patty O'Connell]

Dude, how hard did that kid hit you with that Maglite? I think it rattled some stuff. Luke, this is hilarious. Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

I mean, they're just. They're different. They're different types, and we get more into that, but there's just, like, very different types of pain there. And the thing. The thing about hiking those types of peaks, the thing about any of those endurance sports in general. Right. Is the degree to which you have to just sort of, like, live in the pain.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

And that is something that, like, I have very much learned from those experiences.

[Patty O'Connell]

What I do find is pretty funny here about your relationship is that you're in a classic outdoorsy relationship conundrum, which is where one person is objectively the more experienced human when it comes to specific outdoor pursuits. So how does this imbalance play out in your relationship? Do you guys manage it well, or does it create tension no, it's great.

[Ben Bradford]

It's great. You know, a thing that I love is that I get taken on to these new experiences. And my girlfriend is great about. Well, I would say relatively great. Like, does her best to pick things that she feels are achievable. We were out at Chaleo Pass in the San Gabriel Mountains. We were camping, and first of all, like, that campsite that we were at, it was so hot, and it was weirdly hot. There was some weather thing that I don't understand, where you can. Could walk down a little bit from where we were on the campground and you would feel it get cooler. There was this point where you just walk a few feet and it was like, oh, it's way cooler here. So we were already in this very hot campground. And then there was this hike. Not a crazy hike, just like five miles, probably, something like that. Very simple. But I didn't bring enough water. And then we went off track at a certain point.

[Patty O'Connell]

Of course. Of course.

[Ben Bradford]

And that's the feeling that has, like, stayed with me when I think about that trip is just how shaky I was because I. Yeah, I had heat stroke and so I was fine. We got back and, you know, was able to kind of cool down, but. But that was a moment where it was like, oof. That was really not good. And I don't know that it created, you know, relationship tension or anything, but it was like, oh, I gotta. I gotta be careful. That was like a real, real check there and a new experience.

[Patty O'Connell]

Let's talk about your new show because it is absolutely fabulous and highly entertaining. Despite your relative newness to the outdoors, your new podcast, are We Doomed? Has a lot of outdoor things in it.

[Ben Bradford]

It does?

[Patty O'Connell]

Yes. You're investigating the biggest risks that we're facing. As you know, a species today, like nuclear war, AI Another pandemic. Yay. But also things like asteroids smashing into the planet and will they, Won't they blow? Super volcanoes. Even the potential for mosquitoes to be engineered into bioweapons, which, by the way, has a special way of. Of freaking me out. The show is absolutely great. It's really funny. It's really informative. It's really entertaining. But you've said that you keep a running list of things that could destroy our world, and there are currently, if I have this correctly, 141 entries on that list. So I have to ask, because that seems incredibly terrifying. Which one is the scariest and is working on the show bad?

[Ben Bradford]

Okay, so let's go reverse order there. Working on the show has Actually been sort of lovely because there's something about confronting your fears. I think I'm sort of naturally a pessimist, too.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay.

[Ben Bradford]

You know, the name of our show is Are We Doomed? And if you asked me that just out of the blue a year and a half ago, before I started doing this, yeah, I would have said probably. And I think that one of the things that's been sort of fun and interesting is looking at the really big practical threats immediately in front of us. Things like nuclear war or climate change or AI or pandemics. Those are sort of the big four that, to answer your question, that are typically on the lists of institutions that sort of track threats. If you've heard of the Doomsday Clock, for instance, those are the sort of the things that the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists that run the Doomsday Clock are focused on. And they can feel really unsolvable. They can feel really grim. And one of the things that's been really kind of lovely and unexpected about working on this show is finding more hope about what we can do about those things, about how we might solve those things, or putting into perspective other times, even in relatively recent times, and say, the 20th century, for instance, where humans have projected or thought or it really looks like we were hurtling towards some doom and we managed to avert course. And why was that? Like, what changed it? So I would say I don't start necessarily with a ton of anxiety, which is helpful for this show, but also working on it has, if anything, been a little bit of the opposite for me. It's actually been sort of a fun way to look at that. And then. Yeah, and then the big threats are those really practical, immediate ones, which also are ones that we've created. Because there's like two types of things, right? There's the ones that we've created that are really acute problems. Problems. And then you've got sort of your environmental ones, your outside ones, your asteroids, your supervolcanoes, which are real and are huge. And when we look at what has historically caused the most destruction in the history of the Earth, typically it's related to that. It's some natural event. Right. But they happen on such a time scale, on a timescale of geologic time, they're not nearly as immediate as the ones that we ourselves are creating.

[Patty O'Connell]

Do you think that the subject matter and the interviews in the episodes affect your ability to enjoy the outdoors? Like, do you feel like you're kind of looking over your shoulder a little bit more than you used to?

[Ben Bradford]

Honestly, I Think it's the opposite.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay, explain that. How then?

[Ben Bradford]

So I was telling you that I was thinking about the Perseids, and I remember going out and seeing the Perseids a couple years ago and just lying on my back outside over by Castaic Lake and, and looking up at the sky and seeing them go by, and it was really cool. And now I think about what that actually is, which is it's essentially the particles from a comet that pass by and what's happening there. The reason we see those lights in the sky is because those particles are burning up in our atmosphere, because our atmosphere and the magnetosphere, the magnetic field that the Earth creates are these amazing things that allow us to be. Be here. And there are all kinds of things otherwise that would make Earth very inhospitable. You know, like, why do we not look like Mars? Well, one of the key reasons is because we have this magnetic field around us that lets us, lets our atmosphere hold in so that then when the sun blasts off solar flares and other types of what's called solar weather, which is like, really underselling what the sun is doing, because I don't know if you know that the sun is very explosive and quite hot and somewhat angry and nuclear. And so that all holds it in. And so when you think about what you're seeing on the Perseids, one, you're seeing this enormous comet, the Swift Tuttle comet, right? That's, that's. And basically these particles are ejected from it. And so that's kind of amazing that one is not on any trajectory to land into us, but other ones at some point could be and have in the past and have very famously done. Done in the diamond dinosaurs. And then two, you're seeing sort of like our Earth's natural defenses, which is what allows you and me to be here. And so I actually think that, like, I think about that a lot more, and that's been kind of like a lovely addition to my outside experience.

[Patty O'Connell]

So how much of your outside experience do you think is, like, directly impacting the show? I mean, that's like a direct line, right? Laying back and watching space missiles get burnt up by our atmosphere, it's like, oh, maybe I should look into this. That's pretty cool. Do you think that you were asking these types of questions your entire life life, or were they directly influenced by, you know, looking at a night sky or looking at rock formations in the desert and trying to understand geologic time as it relates to humanity, or staring out into a beautiful vista and coming up with Some type of question that then you're like, I'm going to walk down this research path.

[Ben Bradford]

In some cases, like that has happened pretty directly. You know, if you go to Moab and you go to look at some of the, some of the rocks, you'll see this sort of of black stain on some of the rocks. There's a lot of theories about what that is and where it comes from. It's very old. That kind of tarnish. And one of the theories is, could that have been a form of life that essentially existed before the form of life that led to us? Right. That we evolved from? Right. Basically. Could there have been life that formed, went extinct, and then life reformed again from the, you know, amino acids, the basic kind of building blocks of life on Earth? It seems like that is probably not what happened. That. That is probably something else cool.

[Patty O'Connell]

What if?

[Ben Bradford]

It is a cool what if? And also, like, we don't know if life could have formed multiple times. We're doing an episode right now that is sort of related to that, which is, do you know the Fermi paradox?

[Patty O'Connell]

No, what is that?

[Ben Bradford]

The Fermi Paradox is named after the physicist and Manhattan Project guy, Enrico Fermi. And he asked, where is everybody? Meaning like, where are the aliens? Why don't we see anybody? Like, where, where are people? And you get into this kind of, this math. There's kind of a math problem around it, which is this idea of there are, you know, countless stars and countless planets should be circling those stars. And on the timescale of billions and billions of years, we're kind of late to the game here on Earth. Earth's only been around four and a half billion years. So if there's 10 billion years before that, like, imagine where we could be in a billion years if we don't blow ourselves up. And so that becomes. The thing is, there's a theory, one of the theories about that solves what's called the Furby Paradox, is maybe we blow ourselves up, maybe all civilizations. Maybe the reason we don't see anybody is because civilizations are destined to blow themselves up if they discover the technology that allows them to. Right. It's very dark. But it's not the only answer. It's not the only answer. And so one of the.

[Patty O'Connell]

Ben, tell me the other answer for correct.

[Ben Bradford]

It could be that we're really rare, that life itself is rare. And so we have an episode that sort of explores that. And the answer looks like, like it's probably not that life itself is rare. Like most scientists these days don't Think life itself is rare. However, for almost all of Earth's history, what was life? Earth's been around four and a half billion years. Life started pretty quickly and for three billion, it was just slime. It's just slime.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

So maybe, you know, maybe we're rare and you look at sort of the things that had to happen to get to us. And so I actually find that going back to sort of like talking about like, yeah, like thinking about, thinking about Moab and think about the geology of that. That place where you're seeing these layers of the earth that really extend back millions of years. And that is the smallest little drib of time since our plant's been around. And that is both very humbling, but also makes me think a lot about some of these ideas that we're exploring.

[Patty O'Connell]

I love how the show pokes at your fascination with geological time and our place within it, because same, I find it fascinating. And the reason that I love that you bring up Moab is because I happen to believe that the Four Corners area of the country is unendingly interesting. People have lived in this area since people were people and they have thrived in seemingly inhospitable areas. And you could still see the evidence of that today. And I mean, it's thousands upon thousands of years. Sometimes that makes me feel, you know, in awe. Sometimes I'm like, I can't believe we've only been here for this little blip. Sometimes it's a bit anxiety provoking. Like, look what we've done. You know, when you stare out, you know, at a place like, you know, Dead Horse Point in Moab or another beautiful vista, say in, in Southern California, where you live now, what feeling do you get in terms of geological time and our place within it? Is it liberating? Is it anxiety producing? Is it both?

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, it is. Because I think of two different things, right? Just. Okay, if humans went away, if we just blew ourselves up right now, we've probably not been around long enough that if you were to go a few million years in the future, there would be a fossil record of us. Right. There probably wouldn't be a trace of us.

[Patty O'Connell]

Is that sad? How should I react to that? I don't know.

[Ben Bradford]

I think it is a little sad.

[Patty O'Connell]

I think that makes me. Yeah, that makes me sad. I'm sad, Ben.

[Ben Bradford]

You know what I think it is? I think it's like, it makes me feel disappointed in us if we blow ourselves up. I mean, for sure.

[Patty O'Connell]

But also I feel like it's like definitely if we Blow ourselves up. All that we've done is just been disastrous. And none of the beautiful things about humanity will survive. But it makes me feel like, what a shame for that beauty to be lost, no matter what has happened to it.

[Ben Bradford]

I completely agree. And then there's this flip side which is like, can you imagine if we make it through this period of turmoil, if we figure it out, where do we go from here? You know, 150 years ago, there wasn't electricity. I mean, you know, there wasn't. Yeah, I mean, 100, 100 years ago, we were just starting to electrify most portions of the nation. And now we have such huge advancement, for better and worse.

[Patty O'Connell]

Right.

[Ben Bradford]

I mean, we have, you know, kind of incredible medical interventions. And there are so many people who now are connected to drinking water than there were even a decade or two ago. We have created a bunch of threats. If we make it through those, we can't even imagine, you know, in the same way that somebody in like the 1500s wouldn't even be able to imagine what our life looks like now. And I think that's like, actually really incredible and really interesting. And I think this is like one of the things that gives me a lot of hope. We can't picture what the future looks like or how we solve our problems because we haven't solved them yet. We can picture how we surmounted the challenges of the past because we got through those one way or the other. We can picture how people lived in the past because we have records of it, or we have the memories of it or the histories of it. And we can't picture what the future is because we don't have it yet. And so, so when we think about kind of the grand scope of geologic time, it could be that we're just getting started. If it is rare, if humans, if kinds of species that can appreciate these things are rare, if we're unique, it feels to me like that adds this sort of like extra layer of responsibility for us to continue on and an extra layer of sort of excitement to see where we might be able to be able to go.

[Patty O'Connell]

As you get deeper and deeper into the study of the most terrifying potential end of days scenarios that our planet and species face, what have you come to understand about the preciousness of life and how we spend our days?

[Ben Bradford]

I would say mostly there's like a mood thing, which is one of the reasons I wanted to work on the show in the first place, is because I think I was feeling this sense of bleakness, this sort of sense of Hopelessness. It is one that I think that in the same way that going up and hiking in Griffith park and just kind of getting away from things for a moment feels like it's really sort of realigns my perspective. Working on this show has also sort of, I think, helped emphasize the dangers at the same time as it's sort of like, given me perspective on reasons we might have hope to make it out.

[Patty O'Connell]

Well, do you think it makes maybe getting your ass handed to you by your girlfriend on a hike, like, oh, you know, like given like where we are in geological time, like, this is not that big of a deal.

[Ben Bradford]

I'm not sure that I've had that thought while just like gasping for air and watching her sort of like dance ahead of me.

[Patty O'Connell]

Maybe it would be good to go back to primordial goop.

[Ben Bradford]

I'll tell her that next time.

[Patty O'Connell]

It is now time for the final ramble. One piece of gear that you cannot live without.

[Ben Bradford]

First time I went on a beach camping trip all terrified.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

Friend of mine who was not going on the trip, the one person of the two that I knew in Sacramento hands me me his air pad for sleeping on the. You know, the air pad.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

His camp mat. And he says, this is the difference between people who like camping and don't like camping.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, good answer.

[Ben Bradford]

And I like camping.

[Patty O'Connell]

That's a good answer. There you go. Best outdoor snack, Hiking Mount Talik.

[Ben Bradford]

My cousins made fun of me because we were at the supermarket.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

The night before and I bought some of those, like, fruit rolls. Not fruit roll ups, but like those like fruit rolls that are sort of the, like the sort of the natural ish ones that are usually in the vegetable aisle and they're basically dehydrated fruit.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, yeah. Like a fruit jerky type deal thing.

[Ben Bradford]

Yeah, exactly.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ben Bradford]

We got to the top of Mount Tallock and nothing has ever tasted better than that sort of like fruit jerky. And that is my favorite.

[Patty O'Connell]

If no one has ever told you this, then please allow me to be the first. Basically the only reason or the top reason to do anything outside side. It's for the snacks, dude. Yes.

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, I love that. All right, cool.

[Patty O'Connell]

100%. I mean, I have gone on like backcountry skiing jaunts that were total bs. Like absolute horse crap skiing. But I had coffee cake in my backpack. Like an entire store bought coffee cake and like a thermos of vanilla latte. The best. Did I feel guilty for eating an entire coffee cake? No, absolutely not. Why? Why? Because I Went uphill. Yes. Dude. Treat yourself to 12 donuts next time.

[Ben Bradford]

Fantastic. That's very validating. Great.

[Patty O'Connell]

Go after it.

[Ben Bradford]

Hell, yeah.

[Patty O'Connell]

What is your hottest outdoor hot take?

[Ben Bradford]

My hottest outdoor hot take is probably pretty cool and mediocre lukewarm take. It's good unless there's bugs.

[Patty O'Connell]

Oh, nice. Yes. I would rather deal with wind. I'd rather deal with. With rain. I'd rather deal with extreme heat or extreme cold. Bugs. Absolutely not.

[Ben Bradford]

The one trip I've left so far. The one trip that I've left in the middle of the night.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

Is because it was a yurt. It wasn't my own tent, and there were just too many caterpillars on me. Not that there was a caterpillar on me. There were too many caterpillars on me.

[Patty O'Connell]

Okay. I did not see caterpillars coming into this conversation. What?

[Ben Bradford]

We were on a date farm in a yurt. You could guess this was not my idea. And there were some lovely things. I've never seen the moon be brighter. It was one of those nights you could walk outside and it was like almost daytime because of how bright the moon was. It was lovely. And then we went to go to sleep in the yurt and I was like, there's something here. And I was like, ah. That's like. I, like, brushed off. There was a caterpillar and I brushed it off. And then I just, you know, it was this thing where you couldn't tell whether it's real or whether it's not.

[Patty O'Connell]

Yeah.

[Ben Bradford]

I was like, I gotta turn the light on. This is like after like an hour, I gotta turn the light off on. Open it up. And there are just caterpillars.

[Patty O'Connell]

How many? How many we talking?

[Ben Bradford]

Oh, I would say around me, like, probably in like the 5 area. So not like dozens, but, like, that's enough for in an hour. And God knows how that was going to go. You know, you're going to wake up and you're just going to be a caterpillar.

[Patty O'Connell]

Or like, you burp and a butterfly comes out of your mouth.

[Ben Bradford]

That's exactly right. Maybe you guys are like, no problem. That's fine. But for me, I was like, I. This is not for me.

[Patty O'Connell]

Nobody wants a monarch coming out of your schnoz or something like that.

[Ben Bradford]

I couldn't agree more. And, like, clearly they liked our heat. And, you know, they were. They were coming in, they were coming into the bed, so it was only going to get worse.

[Patty O'Connell]

So would you say then you're more terrified of caterpillars? Your caterpillars More yeah, the caterpillar you doomed because of Caterpillar.

[Ben Bradford]

It's the episode I can never do because I can't face it.

[Patty O'Connell]

Ben Bradford is an outdoor dude, an award winning public radio journalist and the creator and host of of Are We Doomed? A narrative NPR distributed show exploring existential threats facing humanity. The show is great and as you've heard, so has been. If you like feeding your ears and brain good things, then you should listen to Ben, investigate through the lens of humor and hope the big hairy scary things out there that menace our lives. You can listen to Are We Doomed? Wherever you find your podcasts and check out their superbly animated video episodes on YouTube at. Are we Doomed? Follow the show on Instagram at rwedoomed and don't forget to check out video episodes of this show and Follow us on YouTube @Outside Podcast 1 Our words are also moving pictures. A quick note if you dig this show, we'd love it if you would leave us a review wherever you listen to the Outside Podcast. And if you want to do us an extra solid, share the episodes you love with those you love love. Post it, email it, send it via carrier pigeon to your friends and family. Thanks. We appreciate the support. Also, remember that we want to hear from you. So email your pod reactions, guest nominations, the thing that goes bump in the night that terrifies you most, and anything else you'd like to tell and or ask us to outside podcast outside inc.com the outside podcast is hosted and produced by me, Patty o', Connell, but you can call me Patty. The show is also produced by the storytelling wizard Micah if I eat a chimichanga, I too am a super volcano. Abrams music and sound design by Robbie Carver and booking and research by Jeanette Courts. The Outside Podcast is made possible by our Outside plus members. Learn about all the extra rad benefits and become a member [e-mail] pod+.